Should Those Who Claim God Speaks to Them Directly Be Considered False Prophets?

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Netflix, but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies Your discretion is advised People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject

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Christ therefore forfeit any hope of Salvation any hope of heaven

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The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is

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Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

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They will be consumed and they will perish God wrapped himself in flesh

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Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day

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Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us

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Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand

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And Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions

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You're not allowed to ask We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question

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Should those who claim God speaks to them directly be considered false prophets now receiving special words from God has become a very popular idea in Christian in the

01:52

Christian world, especially Surprisingly, so in traditionally cessationist denominations such as the

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SBC I mean you can just go on Twitter and and look up different very popular

02:07

SPC figureheads and hear them regularly say things like I Heard from God or God was telling me these kinds of phrases and so we felt it was really necessary to start talking about This topic but Tim, maybe you could start off by just telling us, you know, why is this become such a big deal?

02:28

Why is this become so popular even in groups that traditionally throughout, you know Throughout history have not recognized this as a as a theological idea that God is still

02:41

Speaking directly to us today Yeah, well, I think you're probably understating the

02:49

The nature of the problem in the way that you've described it meaning You know,

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I think at this point right now when you're talking about groups like the SPC and and everything else I think we're at a point right now where the

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SPC is essentially a charismatic denomination as far as Yeah, sure sure

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I mean it's not I mean it used to be that you know SPC churches were

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Very concerned about the charismatic movement, but right now we're functionally there's there's actually no difference between us and the charismatic churches except that you know, most

03:26

SPC churches aren't gonna speak in tongues or Be slaying in anyone in the spirit

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But in terms of just the idea of continuing biblical revelation we were basically charismatic as far as that goes and and it's it's pretty it's a pretty

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Comprehensive error that I think that seeps into the the entire denomination at that point and and and you know,

03:49

I guess It's difficult to know how this has happened

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I know that If I were to try to ask or try to answer that question, how has this come about There my mind is kind of pushing me in in a couple different directions all at once.

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And so Because I'm largely coming from a reformed camp then I can speak to those closest to me

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Theologically and why that's come about in that way but then there are other influences that are coming from outside that are doing something similar to so we can try to speak to that as well, but one of the things that's happened with the together for the gospel the gospel coalition kind of movement is that there was basically

04:36

I Think in you know in the early 2000s one of the things that happened is that With the creation of the gospel coalition with together for the gospel kind of movement he had a group of guys like Mark Dever and Al Mohler CJ Mahaney CJ Mahaney was functionally a reformed charismatic and and one of the things that that has happened within the reformed

05:00

World is there is basically a ceasefire that was clear declared on the issue of continuing revelation

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It was just one of those things where you had a group of guys who were wanting to unify around the gospel and then

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Part of that unification because they were friends with CJ Mahaney and sovereign grace ministries One of the things that that unity extended to was extended to the charismatic

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Movement itself and so within reformed circles you largely had a ceasefire that was Declared at that very point to where you know the kind of conversations that have happened over the past Decade half or so is that this is a secondary issue and let's not divide over it and one of the things that's happened

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Essentially is that not it not only is it put in the secondary camp that you're not secondary issue kind of thing

05:46

It's not you know, I'm gonna lead you to hell. They they told us so therefore let's leave it off the table but functionally you really weren't even allowed to address the issue and so when

05:58

MacArthur came along and caused a big stink with a strange fire Conference and everything else. I mean he's identifying it as a problem like it's a problem that the reformed world is going charismatic

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They were particularly when you know the Western Westminster confession of faith second London Baptist of faith has a strong statement on the

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Sufficiency of Scripture and there are first article of the confession and so, you know in order to be reformed and charismatic

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That's functionally an oxymoron And it doesn't really fit any of the confessions and it's not something that really it's like a historical novelty

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But it's something that largely these big groups a big evangelicalism have basically declared

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We're not allowed to really talk about and so for many people. It's just not only is it just hey

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Well, it's considered a secondary issue but then if you try to push against it at all you're considered divisive and hateful and Just you know cranky and everything else and so it's almost you know considered wrong to step in and say hey

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What are we doing here as far as that goes and so There are movement so essentially that's what's happened within the reformed world but then in the broader

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Christian world at what one of the things that's happened is that The vast majority of people really are influenced primarily not by the scripture but by music when it comes down to it and so what's happened essentially is that Christian radio stations are

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Have basically set the theological tone for denominations like the SPC And so you know what one of the things that's happened is you have groups like Hillsong Bethel Elevation Church, I mean these are all you know

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Grossly charismatic kind of organizations. I mean, they're just you know Over there they're charismatics.

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They're charismatics, but they're there I mean, they're the kind of organizations that are doing you know things that just You know if you just look into these kind of organizations

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You'll see them doing absurd things like Gravesucking and things like that. I mean they are they're just grossly charismatic at that point but then one of the things that's happened essentially is that they've taken over the

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Christian music scene in a pretty comprehensive way and so The vast majority of SPC churches are basically playing what's on the radio and the radio has been taken over by the charismatics

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Essentially and so because the radio has been taken over by the charismatics essentially what happens at the congregational level is

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You know all your radio advertisers, you know on your standard Christian radio stations They're all charismatics and everything that's played now.

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I mean, it's just at first it was subtle You know 10 years ago 15 years ago as subtle kind of prosperity charismatic stuff.

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But today it's just crass like crass prosperity charismatic Garbage that's being played on the radio at a pretty

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I mean, that's just a standard stuff I mean every single song you listen to is gonna be about victory and it's gonna be about You know, it's gonna have a strong prosperity theme, you know, and and everything else but functionally the charismatics took over the music and and You know, we all like the charismatic music and so fundamentally

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I think that's why the SPC is gone charismatic But it shows up at it, you know, basically every single conceivable

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Way imaginable you have like big -name influencers like Beth Moore who regularly

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Talk about hearing directly from God Christine Cain, you know all these big -name people that are influencers within the broader

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Christian world they're all charismatic as as far as that goes and and so We're big, you know

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Basically these denominations these big -name denominations are more influenced by celebrity Christians who are charismatic and they are about by the

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Bible And really they don't even understand what you know The issues really as far as that goes you you basically just have a pop

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Christianity that's functionally mystical As far as that goes but I think

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I think those are the two kind of major things that are happening that have led to a situation where I would say the vast majority of Christians today are

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Unquestioningly charismatic as far as that goes. Mm -hmm. So yeah, I definitely charismatic

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You know just that's the vernacular that we talked about, you know, that's what's happening at a practical level.

10:15

Yeah I definitely understated the issue at the beginning you brought up Beth Moore I know you and I are both well aware of the video that came out

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I mean it must have been what like eight years ago or six years ago now where Beth Moore is is talking to a bunch of women and She tells a story about how she was at the airport

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I think and she sees she sees this I guess homeless guy at the airport

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Yeah And and she tells all the women there that God God Specifically told her that she didn't have to share the gospel with him.

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She just had to go brush his hair Yeah, yeah,

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I mean if I mean if you're not if you're not like if if Warning bells aren't going off in your head when you hear something like that I'm worried for you, you know, but the thing the thing is,

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I think that was 2007 then that came out But I mean that's Wow 2007

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That's 15 years ago. I think but the thing is, you know, they're warning bells are not going off in people's head

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That they aren't There's very few like there's very few people in the

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Christian world who List like who like if who are having any warning bells

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Go off with Beth Moore and things like that. And she says more certain things than that. That's just Just tip of the iceberg,

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I mean she that's just her thing, you know, her thing is just you know, hey girlfriend, you know Talking to her like a middle -aged, you know middle -aged

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White upper -class woman, you know middle middle upper -middle class what a woman, you know, I mean that's just her thing, you know, that's

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But I mean it like the thing is it it used to be that if you wanted to Now basically start a church split you say anything negative about Beth Moore and you get all the women at the church mad at you

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And you know, you run out of the church I mean, I don't know that the vast majority of churches today that won't happen if you

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Work it so no one seems to think it's a problem That's that's the reason why is just just you know, everyone's listening to Christian radio and that's what's on there, you know

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That's all it is it's sentimental mysticism that's all on the radio stations today and it's just in your face crass, you know

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Continuationist garbage is what it is and you're and you're totally right about what you said earlier in your response

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To our first question you brought up, you know There there are a few people who are willing to say something about this

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John MacArthur being probably the primary example, but then the issue is when when these few people say anything at all and the reaction from the rest of the

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Evangelical Christian world is to condemn Not the not the people saying the absurd things with the people calling out the people saying the absurd things

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So when when John MacArthur says, you know about Beth Moore go home Everyone says oh, you know, you can't don't say something like that.

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You know, it's like hang on. She's saying She's saying some wacky stuff

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She's saying so yeah, but this is pastors to I mean, you know, if actually most of your standard, you know

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Pastors at SBC churches, I mean, they're all mystical and Charismatic and they don't even know it.

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I mean, they don't even know how charismatic they are I mean in just how many times have you heard a pastor, you know talk about his vision for the church and you know

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What God's leading us to do and what he's hearing from the Lord and you know Every time a pastor leaves a church, what does he say?

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Well, I feel called to you know Go to the bigger church. Who's gonna pay? Everything else.

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I mean, it's just I mean, this is the language you speak. I mean, I Harrison, you know when I've done interviews for churches, you're you know, they've

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You know called me up and asked me questions about about You know explain to me your call to the ministry.

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I can't tell you how many times I just hate answering that question I absolutely hate answering that question describe your call to the ministry

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Because what is expected of me in these settings when I'm trying to answer questions along those lines is for me to Basically tell some mystical quasi charismatic story about how

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God, you know in some way that wasn't audible Basically told me short of words, but through my feelings or Through circumstances or whatever else that he that not only was

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I commanded by him to be a pastor But that you know, somehow there's some sort of guarantee that you know

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I'm gonna get some full -time ministry job somewhere and you know Most of the time what they actually want to hear is me to stand before them and say yes

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I believe that you would be in sin if you didn't Because God's told me

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Essentially not. I mean, I mean that's what you know, that's what Basically every you know, almost every you know pastor and churches in America when they go to you know interview for a church

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They're basically just telling people that Essentially, you know if you if you read through the subtext you better hire me or else you're in sin because God's given me

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You know this strong confirmation, you know in so many ways that you know He has knit my heart together with this church and given me such confidence

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This is exactly where he wants me to be but all that's just a direct claim for revelate for direct divine revelation

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And so, you know when there's some major decision to be made, you know The pastor is sensing where the

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Lord is leading him and everything else and and and you know It these are functional claims of revelation and this is what all the pastors are doing, you know and if you don't do that, they think oh man, like this guy is like, oh, you know like So let me get this straight.

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God isn't telling you that you were commanded to be our pastor. Well, I'm nervous about you, you know I Other pastors have already interviewed for the same job and all said that God wanted them there

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I know and it's just like well, which one of you guys is getting stoned and which one? We got a rock collection here and what's all right

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We're gonna hire this one and you guys are all false prophets apparently, you know, but I mean no one thinks in those terms

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I mean no one's thinking along those lines, but I mean it's it's like that's I mean, that's just standard If you don't play that game

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Then what happens is, you know If you don't play that game people think you're not very spiritual for one and then they don't trust like the decisions

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You're leading them to do because it doesn't feel like you know You're sensing what got like what they want to hear is some sort of claim to direct divine revelation

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So that everyone could be comfortable and just okay well I guess that means if the things from the Lord like, you know

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Who are we to disagree and everyone can just chalk it up to you know? God told him, you know, but but I mean, you know functionally if you don't do that, everyone's suspicious of you

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But then if you do that, I mean you're a scoundrel and you're a liar because you know that God didn't say that That's the problem.

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But so I mean, it's not just Beth Moore. It's just I mean, that's just the standard, you know the situation, you know across the board with With all pastors when it comes to decision -making and things like that, it's just it's a bunch of mystical garbage so as we continue this

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Conversation it might be helpful just if we define Some of these terms that we're using just to make

17:57

I think most people probably will pick up on what exactly we mean But just in case there's some people who might still be confused

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Tim Could you just take a minute and and define what we mean when we're when we're talking about God speaking directly to people

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What exactly what exactly do we mean what all falls under that umbrella?

18:22

Sure, yeah, so I Guess the two major terms that are that we're talking about we're talking about this kind of discussion is are the terms cessationism and continuationism and so cessationism is the belief that God God's Word Essentially is complete and it's sufficient.

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And so we we have in the you know, 66 books of the Bible We have a completed canon

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God said all the things that he needed to say and we have everything we need now for life and godliness in the scriptures and You know from a cessationist kind of position there's no expectation of any additional

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Direct divine revelation from God meaning his revelation to man is complete and what we have today is the

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Bible, you know with the addition of the New Testament scriptures God's finished speaking Now the continuationist position is essentially the opposite of that Which is basically just saying that God will continue to speak to people through dreams or through visions or through, you know direct

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Verbal revelation or you know, most often it's through their feelings essentially.

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And so one of the things that's happened that that really what distinguishes most like formal charismatic denominations and you know, you're

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Functionally charismatic denominations like the SPC now and things like that What basically distinguishes these two things is that in your you know

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Your standard straight -up Benny Hinn Charismatic movement kind of stuff

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There is some expectation that people are gonna say thus says the Lord and then they're gonna tell you here

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God I have a word for you very specifically and they're gonna say God told me to tell you X or Y or Z or something like That right?

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So that's kind of old -school charismatic That's the old -school charismatic kind of way of communicating that I mean you'd find that in your you know your

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Hillsong and your Bethel and your You know your big, you know, Churchill Highlands megachurch kind of charismatic stuff

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But in your old -school charismatic stuff, you're gonna have that Up until like speaking in tongues.

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So, you know babble that is Not really language just babble that is being equated with direct divine revelation where someone may or may not interpret it

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That kind of thing but what happened was happened in more of the mainstream SPC kind of world is essentially there's not as much of an expectation as direct divine revelation like that, but there is going to be essentially equal kind of claims to direct divine revelation in that a person can be like I feel like God is telling me

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X and that's going to be some sort of they're gonna discern that somehow through you know, the promptings of the

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Holy Spirit or the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in their heart or you know The chord progression in this

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Indigestion or something else but it's gonna be kind of quasi verbal like you'll have people basically talk about you know

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I wasn't quite audible, but I know it's what he wants me to you know Hear from this or that, you know favorable circumstances or their mood or whatever else it is

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If that makes sense, and so but it essentially in your mainstream Christian world you're gonna have some sort of appeal to some sort of extra biblical revelation that is discerned apart from reading the

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Bible But then through you know promptings or feelings or you know subjective Circumstances or situations, but that's more your mainstream kind of SPC charismatic stuff that's happening if that makes sense.

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Mm -hmm, but you have any follow -up on that? Yeah, so do things like Dreams fall into this category as well

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Yeah, I mean I think in your mostly in your mainstream charismatic movement you're gonna still have people talking about dreams and visions and power encounters and you know that kind of stuff or the speaking in tongues or Just direct verbal, you know, you know, you're crass prosperity preachers who were talking about God You know talking to them while they're shaving kind of stuff so all the dreams and visions

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I would say that's largely the you know The charismatic territory still but then in the

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SPC world in your mainstream Evangelical Christian world it's gonna be more just through sensing and feeling and you know

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God still small voice kind of stuff like so it won't be verbal or I Don't I don't know that many

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SPC people are gonna be talking about dreams and visions and that kind of stuff but they're gonna more talk about the

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Quasi almost is, you know, it's almost as if God spoke but didn't quite but we should treat it as if he did kind of Stuff if that makes sense.

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Yeah. Yeah, okay and and the other the other term that I wanted to ask you to define for our listeners is if you could just take a minute and maybe fill out people's idea of Of what a false prophet is and and what exactly you know, the

23:38

Bible would consider to be a false prophet Yeah, sure so I think part of what's happened with the charismatic movement and the rise of the charismatic movement and the rise of just like the gospel coalition and T4g and all that you know the the idea of a

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Reformed charismatic has kind of been mainstreamed and part of that's been done through a guy named

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Rick Wayne Grudem And so he's kind of the theologian for that charismatic movement as far as that goes but then he came up with this idea of fallible prophecy essentially where when you

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Trying to distinguish Old Testament Like what false prophet is in the Old Testament verse what is prophecy in the

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New Testament? So he invented this concept of fallible prophecy saying this essentially different But the problem is

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I think as you read through the scriptures one of the things you're gonna find is there's two major tests of of the false prophet in The Old Testament, okay, so the two passages

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I'm thinking about a Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 essentially so Deuteronomy 18 18 through 22 basically gives you part of this definition of a false prophet and Then Deuteronomy 13 gives you another part of it.

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So Deuteronomy 13 1 through 3 But essentially

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I start with Deuteronomy 18 It says I'll raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers and I'll put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all

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I have commanded him and whoever will not listen to my words that I shall speak in my name

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I myself will require it of him. Now. I mean it's this amazing passage because essentially God is promising that you know, he raises up Moses and Basically, he's not done with Revelation with Moses, but Moses is kind of your stereotypical

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Old Testament prophet as far as that goes You know, I got it Moses is basically if you know the

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Type of the archetype of a prophet in the Old Testament essentially But God's gonna have other prophets.

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He's gonna raise up and they all kind of follow a similar formula, but then Basically God says who you know, he's gonna raise up more prophets like Moses Okay, and whoever doesn't listen to my words.

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I speak in my name I myself will require it of him meaning like you better when I raise up a prophet you better listen to him, right?

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But then verse 20 says but the prophet who presumes to speak a word my name I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods that same prophet shall die so basically you you have a

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Pretty serious situation here, right? So God says I'm gonna send you a prophet like Moses and you better listen to him

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And if you don't I'm gonna require it of you meaning like if you don't listen to this prophet, you're disobeying me, right?

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But then the prophet though that presumes to speak in my name it who I didn't command To be a prophet that prophets gonna die.

26:29

So this is like pretty harsh terms either way, right? so so but then the thing is

26:34

God knows that like I So think about it this way like you have a prophet person comes to you and says hey that says the

26:40

Lord They're making a claim of divine authority. They're basically saying you better do what I'm saying or you're in sin and God's gonna judge you

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That's a pretty significant thing. But then in the Old Testament, there's a pretty significant penalty for you know, messing that up, right?

26:53

but then There's a very natural question that's asked in verse 21 of 18 It says if if you say in your heart, how will we know the word the

27:01

Lord has not spoken? I mean, that's the kind of question I have right? Yeah, I'm just gonna run around say

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I'm speaking for God I want to know well, how do I know if that's from God or you know, that's just his indigestion, right?

27:14

Is that from God or are they just on drugs, right? Like how do we know how do we know right?

27:21

Cuz you know That's a pretty significant claim that's this being made so it says how will we know well verse 22 when a prophet speaks in the

27:28

Name of the Lord if the word does not come to past or come true That is a word. The Lord has not spoken.

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The prophet has spoken at presumption. We presumptuously need not be afraid of him so like here's the thing like God says if a prophet presumes to speak a word my name

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I've not commanded to speak or speaks in the name of other gods that same prophet will die. Here's the thing So there's a one strike you're out policy in the

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Old Covenant If you presume to speak a word and it does not come to past The you know, the

27:55

Old Covenant command was to kill that prophet and for a good reason, right? We're good reason because there's no, you know greater way to cause chaos among God's people than to run around claiming to speak for God Divine authoritative words that people are commanded to obey or else

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God will judge them, right? There's no other way to No other way to but the cause chaos and to do that and so there's a one strike you're out policy

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So basically, you know, you have you think about all the charismatic movement and all these, you know People were predicting the

28:27

Lord's return they predicted at four times now five times now You know if they were living under the

28:33

Old Covenant, they'd be put to death and for good reason now I mean so the first test there is you know, is there a hundred percent accuracy to the prophets words a hundred percent accuracy?

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There's no toleration or margin for error at all If if they're gonna say that Lord spoke it's up in it better come to pass or else there to be put to death, right?

28:54

But then the problem though is that you know, Satan does counterfeit miracles as well, right and so You know when

29:02

Moses is sent as the prophet to God's people You know a lot of the signs that Moses performs

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He sent to perform the Egyptian magicians were able to do because there are other supernatural powers in the world besides God, right?

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So Deuteronomy 13 says if a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder in that sign

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Or wonder that he tells you comes to past Right comes to pass So if it comes true and and if he says let us go after other gods

29:29

Which you have not known and let us serve them You shall not listen to the words that prophet or dreamer of dreams for the

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Lord your God is testing you to know whether or Not you love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul So here's the thing there's in the

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Old Covenant. There's two tests for a false prophet one Is it 100 % accuracy did it come to pass and then two, you know, even if it does come to pass

29:48

Are they leading you to serve other gods? Are they contradicting, you know, God's written words in any way if so, like that prophet

29:56

You're being tested by the Lord. And so there's two Tests there within the Old Covenant and I would say that you know, really related to the modern charismatic movement

30:05

The problem is that we have these two tests in the Old Testament. I don't see any reason why We like if we were to just follow these tests then the charismatic movement essentially would be dead

30:18

Yeah, yeah No pun intended

30:24

Yeah, but I mean it would you know, you wouldn't have this, you know Ridiculous situation that we're living under right now where everyone's just claiming, you know all these words from Lord, you know on a regular basis and trivializing the thing to where it's just Absolute chaos, you know if we if we realize how serious this actually is to claim to speak in the name of the

30:43

Lord and And you know, and I'm not talking again. We're not talking about some sort of vigilante justice or something like that I'm just we're talking about though if you lived in a

30:53

Christian society where That was actually considered a Punishable offense in that way you would have a lot less false prophets, you know

31:04

But even if the church uses power of excommunication to start excommunicating people who are Claiming to speak in the name in the name of the

31:11

Lord words that are not true We would you know, we could clean up the radio stations

31:17

We could clean up our churches if we would just you know, follow what God says there I think it's pretty obvious to look around and see that we don't exactly exactly

31:29

You know treat Prophecy the same way the Israelites in the Old Testament would have is that safe to say

31:36

Tim? Yeah So You know with that best and I had it really

31:43

I mean, I don't right I mean unless you just get really weird, you know like the only time someone really is gonna like get offended about it is if Like you're in a scenario where what you're being told is different from what you want to do

31:59

In some substantial way, you know So, you know the guy goes up to the girl or something like that And it says the

32:04

Lord is just telling me that you're to be my next wife, you know It's like well, you know, unfortunately the

32:10

Lord's telling me that It's I was through the Ouija ball, you know

32:15

Further through the Ouija ball that I was supposed to marry this other dude, you know, and that's not you That wasn't the name that came up.

32:21

So what do we do? You know? Yeah. No. Yeah So like I was saying we at that point then it's like oh, hey, you know, we're all cessationists at that point, you know but but but if it's something you want to hear then

32:34

Actually, it's you're all charismatics all day long, you know, so Like I was saying, you know, obviously we don't really treat

32:43

We don't really treat prophecy the same way the Israelites and the Old Testament would have so kind of turning us back to the title

32:50

Question of the episode Do you think we should be treating prophecy the same way the old the

32:56

Old Testament Israelites would have meaning? You know, do you think? We should treat the people who claim that they're receiving, you know, a special Private word from God that we should treat them as false prophets

33:12

I'm absolutely I think we should I understand how When you know you're in a you know judges kind of situation where everyone's doing what's right in their own eyes and and you you have such a long history of Years and years and years and all your major Evangelical figures who are functioning charismatic in certain ways.

33:36

I understand how that sounds kind of shocking To say but I mean obviously if you're just reading the

33:42

Bible and you're saying hey, I'm gonna think about Prophecy the way God talks about it within his word

33:49

Then if we would just do what the Bible says we would clean everything up pretty good, you know as far as that goes

33:56

And so I mean, I think part of the problem is that you know For most people who are doing the

34:02

Beth Moore kind of thing or you know, hey I think God's telling me this or I think God's telling me that Often it's like you can't really tell

34:13

With the person, you know, are they making a claim to direct divine revelation or is this just kind of a

34:23

You know horribly uncareful way of communicating Sanctified wisdom or something along those lines, you know, so like what is actually being communicated here

34:37

In terms of you know, you just have the person standing there and just saying yeah I just feel like God wants me to You know take the job, you know

34:45

Feel like God is telling me to take the job or whatever, you know, what's what happened there?

34:51

You know and often I'm the kind of person who in that kind of situation I'm gonna look at the person and saying hey, are you are you saying that God?

35:00

Told you audibly in some way to take the job, you know. Oh, no. No, no Are you telling me then that like somehow he told you through your feelings that you should take the job and then once I get you know

35:13

Catch on that. I'm pushing back against it. Look then it gets a lot fuzzier as far as that goes, but generally, no,

35:20

I think it would be wonderful if if if We could regain a cessationist kind of theology and all of us start actively

35:30

You know pushing back against this a lot stronger than what we do and actually saying, you know start just using biblical words for the kind of people who are

35:41

Doing this very thing, you know, and one of those biblical words is to start calling people false prophets

35:46

I think that would be entirely helpful If we would be encouraging people to repent of being false prophets, you know at this point

35:56

Certainly draw the lines more clearly and as far as that goes sure Now obviously this kind of movement

36:06

You know this kind of charismatic movement. It's very popular, right and It wouldn't it wouldn't be popular if people weren't you know fixated on it for some reason if they weren't

36:21

Drawn to it for some reason so I'm wondering Tim Why exactly?

36:28

What exactly is it about this kind of idea that God still speaks to us today is so enticing for so many people

36:37

You know that that we would basically be willing to completely overlook how the

36:43

Bible treats prophecy in general The issue is no one's overlooking with the

36:51

Bible No one's overlooking what the Bible talks about with prophecy they have no idea what it says

37:04

They're not even looking man, like that's the whole thing I mean like that the whole problem is the reason why I mean in order to try to Answer your question.

37:12

I mean like the thing is this has gained such popularity is because no one reads the Bible Like that why would you ever read the

37:19

Bible why would you read the Bible if God will just talk to you through your feelings right

37:27

So I mean that's the whole thing like that like the whole pole the whole draw of this thing the whole thing that that encourages

37:33

People to like to approach it. This is a different religion. It's not even the same religion

37:39

We're not we're not even approaching the life and in the same way I mean Harrison, I'm the kind of person who thinks to myself, you know, if I want to know what

37:48

God says about something I'm the kind of person who will read through the whole Bible to try to ask

37:53

What is he said at every passage about this topic? Okay, that's what

37:58

I do. I mean, I've like there's been questions I've asked us like what does God say about you know who to marry for instance or something like that?

38:05

But when I was single and I read through the New Testament and I read through the Old Testament I read through the New Testament multiple times and I made a list of all the things that addressed marriage

38:16

Just for just just to find out what it said about that topic in the New Testament in the

38:21

Old Testament And I've just read through it and then made a list of things and then made observations after that Now if you're a charismatic, you know, or if you're just a popular

38:30

Christian person who gets her theology from Beth Moore or something like that There's no reason to do any of that Why in the world would you do any of that?

38:39

Right? That sounds like a lot of work So like the vast majority of like Christians today, you know professing

38:46

Christians say they're not reading their Bibles Like they're just listening to you know, their feelings or their intuition or they're listening to like they're following their heart

38:55

You know, they're doing the Disney thing, you know And essentially what happens is, you know, God seems to always be telling them to do exactly what they want to do.

39:03

Anyways So But then if you say hey, you know that maybe that's not God speaking.

39:10

Maybe that's just you know you like That may just be that it sounds like you just are saying

39:19

God's saying exactly what you want to say You know, then it's just like you've challenged their entire

39:25

Christianity at that point because their entire Christianity is built on mysticism. And so I mean in that and that's the thing

39:30

It's just like this is a very I mean, it's a very attractive thing right, I mean, it's very attractive kind of View of God in general like if you just talk about what's the draw?

39:40

Well, the draw is you don't ever have to read the Bible and you can get direct access from God Whenever you want through your feelings and then conveniently it there's no way to like push against it in any way, right?

39:50

Mm -hmm, so it's like unfalsifiable. So it's just like hey God wants you to marry me, right? If you're the guy saying

39:55

God wants you to marry me, you know, it's just like well if you don't do it You're disobeying God, right? So I always get what I want in that system and then

40:02

God always tells me what I wanted to tell me Right and like that's the way it works and and then it takes all the work out of it

40:08

It takes all the actual study out of it everything else. And so part of it's that part of it's just That you know the vast majority of Christians I do

40:16

I really do think that they they care much more about what popular Christian musicians say then like or whatever the famous celebrities say then their pastors or You know reading of Scripture himself.

40:30

I think that most people they just they've never really They don't even know how to go to the Bible and read it and get observations from it

40:38

And that's not something that no they're normally doing They're just taking their cues about what God wants them to do from popular

40:43

Christian celebrities as far as that goes And so I don't know is that Yeah, I think that answers a large majority of it and I think you're probably right with you know

40:55

If I had to guess probably ninety nine point five percent of all people, you know

41:00

Who think this way about God still speaking it probably

41:06

Realistically is it just it does just boil down to they probably don't really

41:12

Value reading or studying the Bible the way that they should and so what happens then is, you know

41:18

Inevitably, you're not gonna really know anything that that It says right if you it's not surprising that if you don't ever read it

41:25

You're not gonna know what it says and so that probably applies to the majority of people I do still have a question though About that other, you know point five percent and these aren't necessarily, you know accurate

41:41

Precise numbers. I went and polled everyone who was charismatic About why

41:48

I think you're you know, despite the fact that 99 % of all statistics are made up on the spot including that one.

41:54

I think your numbers are probably right I might even I might even be being a little generous with my

42:05

But there are still people who come to my mind that Don't necessarily strike me as the type who just don't know their

42:15

Bible very well So I I know earlier you had you had brought up Wayne Grudem another guy that I think of is

42:24

Dr. Michael Brown Who who I think you've you know him?

42:30

I mean not personally, but you you recognize You you recognize that name, you know who that is

42:38

They you know, they don't strike me as the type of people who are necessarily Ignorant when it comes to the scriptures when it meaning like they don't study their

42:48

Bible Right, they don't read it So Do you do you disagree

42:56

I Would put Grudem and Michael Brown and two very different categories

43:03

I think there's been a movement that's like tried to mainstream Michael Brown, but there is no there's no heretic that Michael Michael Brown is essentially the

43:12

Apologist for all charismatics out there And now the thing about Michael Brown is he's like he's a

43:18

Hebrew scholar And so like I think he's he knows Hebrew better than I'll ever know it sure

43:25

You know as far as that goes, but there's no like notorious heretic out there that Michael Brown has not defended and enabled in certain ways or Anything and so he's a guy that you don't want to go to like it is discernment wise for anything

43:40

I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't want I wouldn't you know Send my dog to him to get discernment tips as far as that goes, which

43:49

I wouldn't have you know, because I'm not I Don't have a vested interest in naming my food but But no,

44:01

I think him and what Grudem are in very different classes of people I mean they used to refer to you know

44:07

Michael Brown is knock him down Brown and in the revivals because he used to knock people down You know as far as So, but I think

44:17

He's he's the kind of guy who you know has never met a false prophet or charlatan that he doesn't like and He has zero discernment, you know as far as that goes, but So but with someone like Grudem, I think one of the things that's happened

44:37

What you're right you're right in terms of the the statistics of things, okay So I mean the vast majority of people

44:44

I know are basically just you know Christian like they're getting their theology from Christian celebrities

44:49

That's what they're doing. Okay, right and so the vast majority of them are you know, they're not reading their

44:54

Bible on their own They'd never even thought about these issues. They don't even know that there's an issue here to be discussed

45:00

They're not approaching it from some sort of academic like lens of trying to you know, determine the difference between cessationism and and Continuationism or anything else and we know what those words mean.

45:12

They don't know what we're talking about They're basically just reading, you know, Jesus calling by Sarah young and the

45:18

Beth Moore books, you know, they're you know They're reading the practicing the presence of God by Henry by could be a kind of stuff and they're basically just you know

45:28

All this stuff that all this mystical stuff that their pastors are recommending there They're reading it without any kind of question and they've developed basically just this

45:38

Mystical kind of God speaks to me directly approach to the Christian life and there's like that's what's happening if that makes sense

45:45

Then so there are so but what's happened though is with you know The t4g that together for the gospel movement in general.

45:53

One of the things that's happened is be like everyone's mainstreaming this Charismatic error essentially is what what's happened?

46:01

And so now you have people coming along who like have something like you have scholars coming along who are basically doing the

46:11

Dirty work for the charismatic and trying to figure out well, how can we you know? How can we get these two were incompatible worlds to mesh together as far as that goes?

46:21

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. And so I think at that point you have guys like Grudem who functionally

46:27

I mean Grudem is not going to be the kind of guy who Is going to be speaking in tongues or anything else?

46:35

I think he's he's he's basically a kind of guy He's just gonna be saying hey, you know, like I'm trying to figure out how to how

46:44

God can how to work all these things together and all my friends now are charismatic and a lot of my friends are quasi charismatics and he's trying to think the best of everyone and come up with a way to Figure out how to put the pieces together for everyone in a way that makes sense as far as that goes, you know

47:02

But those are few and far between I think the vast like the kind of people on the ground level Like basically what happens is the people who are researching the thing at all are typically the kind of people who are mad at you for Telling them that God doesn't speak to them directly then they go and they like because they have they're now mad at you because you

47:21

You know, here's how it works right Harrison. Here's how it works But the standard person who who actually looks into this and tries to figure out what they think about it

47:30

Who's gonna come out with a care like a cessationist kind of position? What happened was like their wife had some stupid idea about Like something that God's telling her

47:41

Her directly that you should do as a pastor and then what's happening on the on a practical level is then you know they're like basically going in like You're basically saying hey, you know

47:52

God didn't tell her that and we're not gonna do what she's telling us to do I'm sorry And then they get offended for the sake of their wife and then they go and they read

47:59

Grudem to figure out like why you're wrong You know That's what's happening, you know

48:07

If as far as that goes, that's that's the vast majority of people who are yeah Who are even thinking about these things that I don't know

48:14

I don't know anyone personally who has ever come to some sort of continuationist position

48:20

You know straight up, you know what? I mean do a careful reading of Scripture or anything else?

48:25

I don't know. I don't know very many people at all. They're either raised in the charismatic church and then you know, they're trying to figure out how to Sort it out.

48:34

I mean the vast majority of people I know who started out as charismatics and who start reading their Bible. They go the other way, you know what

48:40

I mean? There's there's no one who's like like Like they just were raised in a charismatic

48:46

Environment the more they start reading the Bible and see that it's sufficient the more they're moving the other way But I don't know hardly.

48:52

I don't know anyone who is You know just studied the scriptures himself and naturally came up with it on their own as far as that goes one of the primary pushback you know arguments that people are going to give when you have this type of Cessationist view like we have when it comes to you know, does does

49:15

God still speak to us is That essentially, you know, we're we're putting

49:21

God in a box We're limiting what God can do or maybe even you know

49:28

We're essentially saying the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything at all

49:33

Then if if God's not speaking to us today, then the Holy Spirit basically has no purpose at that point

49:40

So what what's your response to that kind of idea that kind of pushback that that they would bring to the table?

49:49

Yeah that you're the basic pushback being just that you're putting

49:54

God in a box or that you're The Holy Spirit glow if if God's not still speaking then the

50:02

Holy Spirit's functionally muted he's not doing anything Yeah, yeah, I think in general most people really have

50:09

No understanding of what the Holy Spirit does other than just the mysticism. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it's really sad.

50:15

It's really sad That's it. I mean, it's just like it's either, you know, it's it's either mysticism or it's

50:23

Like that's that's all I got. You know what I mean? So this so I think part of As I've kind of offended people on this subject and this is

50:32

I would say of all the subjects I've ever offended people on one of the main subjects I've offended people on is on the charismatic question because I mean you really you are when you push back against this at all

50:42

You really are basically Taking away their

50:48

Christianity because this is how they do it, you know, this is it this is what they got so But typically it's just you know

50:55

They most people can't conceive that the Holy Spirit has anything to do other than this which is kind of Sad really when it comes down to it because the

51:04

Holy Spirit has all a lot of roles I mean so the Holy Spirit's job God guess is it

51:10

Jesus since the Holy Spirit into the world that to convict the world of sin and righteousness of judgment So every time that you read the

51:16

Bible and you see areas in which you fall short of what God says That's the Holy Spirit and you feel bad about it.

51:22

That's the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin, right? No, he spirit brings to remembrance the words of Scripture. So Jesus is

51:29

You Know first John talks about the anointing you received You know will guide you into all truth and and Jesus talks about the

51:36

Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance my words Take my what's mine declared to you? So I mean the Holy Spirit has this role of bringing to remembrance

51:43

Scripture I can't tell you how many times I've been in situations where The perfect Bible verse comes to mind and it's the perfect Bible verse actually taken in context

51:53

That's important It's important But it's true. I mean like The holy, you know,

52:01

God will bring their members to scriptures You put those scriptures in your brain God will bring their members of scriptures the the

52:07

Holy Spirit said divine comforter right and and in terms of a We receive comfort from God and part of the way like if you think about the way the

52:15

Holy Spirit works you connect it with the scripture at every single point and the scriptures Are the source of comfort to us and the

52:22

Holy Spirit will bring the scriptures to remembrance to us And so Holy Spirit convicts us to sin brings to remembrance

52:28

God's word. He's a comforter to us He will help us to be conformed to the image of Christ So, you know when you're trying to daily fight the battle of I mean,

52:38

I can't tell you how many times I've Wanted to sin and a Bible verse will come to my mind

52:45

And so I mean for the kind of person who says like well you're saying the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything It's like well,

52:51

I don't know what you're doing in your life. Like what do you what are you trying to accomplish? Right, and I mean,

52:56

I think that that's the thing, you know with the vast majority of charismatics and biblical Christian biblical Christians are trying to fight sin and So they see all the ways in which the

53:05

Holy Spirit is helping them to fight sin and their life put the death deeds to the flesh, you know And helping them do war in that kind of way, but then

53:14

I think for the standard Christian charismatic Christian It's all just about victory and overcoming and you know

53:20

Having a special director Ryan words from God to tell them to do exactly what they want to do already And so we're just engaging in a different thing, you know

53:28

One person's trying to be sanctified. The other person is trying to get victory, you know in the prosperity sense And and so then it's like you take away that still small voice from them.

53:36

It's like they don't have anything else It's good. Yeah, you don't ever read the Bible and you know, you're not trying to fight sin So yeah, you don't have anything else.

53:42

So there's that right? So there's that part of it but then like with the whole like you're putting

53:47

God in the box kind of Objection silly sort of objection was like I think the simplest response to that kind of thing is just to Say hey, you know,

53:58

I'm not I'm not putting God in a box He's put himself in one, you know

54:10

Sir, you know that doesn't get you very far because that sounds blasphemous or something like that But it's just like I didn't put him in the box.

54:15

He he decided what box he likes, you know But but I mean, here's the thing I mean, it's just like you think about you think about that kind of objection.

54:24

There's plenty of things that God Can't do right. Mm -hmm. There's plenty of things to God.

54:29

He can't lie, right? He can't swear by a name that's greater than his own, right? There's things like there's things that are not within his character to do so God can

54:40

God's all -powerful He can do whatever he wills to do and he'll do anything that's in accordance with his character

54:46

And so like the idea that like hey, you're putting him in a box It's just like well God can't lie and God's not the author of confusion and God's not gonna

54:54

You know got like you look at the charismatic movie All you see is confusion there at every single point

55:00

And so the issue is is what has he determined to do and he can do anything that he's determined to do obviously

55:07

But what has he determined to do and has he determined to instead of having his people read their scriptures?

55:14

In order to find his will because he's given them a sufficient word in the scriptures in order to you know be a

55:22

You know a light into the feet and lamp to their path has he given them that has he determined to Speak to his people through a book which is sufficient

55:30

Or has he determined basically just to short -circuit that process and tell each individual Christian what he wants them to know whenever he wants

55:37

To know that and I mean certainly he can do that But then it's neither here nor there about whether or not you're putting it in a box

55:43

It's like what like the the issue is what has he revealed that we should expect for him to do so make sense.

55:50

Mm -hmm Yeah, and you know what if he's revealed that each individual Christian is going to receive direct divine revelation from God Whenever they need it, then that's what he's revealed, you know

56:02

And and I would be the first to say if that's what we should he said he's going to do We should look for him to do that.

56:07

But if that's not what he said, he's gonna do then, you know, it's Really, you know that well, you're you know, you're limiting

56:15

God kind of argument. It's really kind of stupid It's just like no. What does he said? He's gonna do he's gonna be limited by what he says, right?

56:22

So, you know, he might limit himself in terms of You know what?

56:27

He's based on what he said, right? so And you can you can make that kind of thing in Make that kind of case in any ridiculous way you want.

56:39

I mean You know, it's just like hey, you know, can God make me 20 feet tall, right?

56:46

Well, I guess He could if he wanted to right but as I read through the

56:51

Bible There's nothing in the Bible that says he should do that So I probably shouldn't expect him to do that and that isn't limiting him and that's just to say, you know

56:58

We have no experience with him There's no promise that he's gonna do that So you might not want to you know, trust him to do something that you know might be kind of absurd, you know

57:07

Can't he make me a hundred foot tall sure, you know, but is he gonna do it probably not Yeah, no, but I mean like to put it in another way

57:18

I mean is he you know, could God make you know Could God, you know, basically is he promising, you know to give any

57:27

Christian who asked a million dollars? It's like well, no, I mean he didn't promise that could he do it? Sure, you know

57:32

But if you're saying well, he's not promised to do that and we shouldn't expect him to do that.

57:37

Are you limiting him? Well, I'm not limiting him I'm just saying what is he revealed that we should expect for him to do and what have you know?

57:43

What what hasn't he revealed? You know what I mean? So So it's kind of a silly proposition

57:52

Yeah, I I remember You probably you probably remember this too, but I remember Well, let me say this first I'm totally convinced that this type of charismatic movement only builds

58:05

You know at best extremely weak baby

58:11

Christians and at worst Deceives people into thinking they're

58:17

Christians when they're really not and what I mean is I remember one time I got a call from a guy who was asking me

58:25

Essentially, you know, what do I need to do to become a worship leader? I'm a worship leader right now and and so he was thinking

58:33

I would be able to give him some helpful insight into how to become one himself and unfortunately for him the conversation

58:43

Didn't really give him anything that he wanted And the reason was because we were just talking and I was just kind of getting to know him a little bit and asking him

58:52

You know, how hey, how did you become a Christian? I was just curious. I wanted to know his testimony and He told me that the way he became a

59:02

Christian, you know, I was expecting some kind of like hey, you know My dad he told me about the gospel

59:08

He kept telling me over and over again or my friend or my pastor whoever they I just kept hearing the gospel from someone and eventually

59:15

I realized that I needed Jesus to Be my savior. I needed to submit to him and put my faith in him.

59:22

But instead what he said was that one One day, I think he was in a hotel room and he overdosed on Some you know drug.

59:33

I don't remember. I don't remember what it was But it was a pretty, you know serious one if he was overdosing on it

59:39

And this wasn't his first overdose by the way this he told me this was like his third That year

59:46

I think and and he He told me that when he went to the hospital.

59:53

He was there for a while and he remembered one night He said that he woke up and and Jesus appeared to him and You know, he said that Jesus told him some stuff

01:00:09

What color was he? No, I didn't ask him what I should have Like hey, did you think to pull out your phone and take a picture?

01:00:19

Kind of like to know what the guy looks like. Yeah, I'm curious, but he appeared to me the other day and you know

01:00:29

But anyways, you know, he he said that Jesus spoke to him I don't remember exactly what

01:00:36

This guy said that that Jesus spoke but you know, I mean the story was essentially hey

01:00:42

Jesus visited me while I was in the hospital. I was near death and basically at that moment,

01:00:49

I realized that Jesus was real and I needed to be a Christian and My first you know

01:00:56

Maybe maybe I've been you know I've been tainted by What you've taught me

01:01:04

Tim, but my first thought was not, you know to just kind of oh Okay, you know and think oh that's kind of weird, but I'm not gonna say anything my first thought was instead to kind of push back on what he said and and I just asked him

01:01:18

I was like so, how do you know that was Jesus and he was kind of you know caught off guard by my question and and You know, he was like, well,

01:01:30

I don't know. I'm just sure it was Jesus, you know, and and it became pretty obvious Soon fairly quickly that he really didn't actually know that it was

01:01:41

Jesus He had just wanted it to be Jesus and he had convinced himself. It was Jesus So but then the moment someone challenged that idea he didn't have anything to really prove it with and what ended up happening in that conversation is

01:01:56

I mean within 20 minutes of just asking questions and and reading him some some very specific verses, you know, particularly and and Hebrews chapter 1 right at the beginning of the book

01:02:11

You know he immediately Was like well if that wasn't

01:02:17

Jesus Then I don't even know if I'm a Christian Right.

01:02:23

I mean, I mean his whole faith quote -unquote was just destroyed by my simple just Just asking how do you know it was

01:02:33

Jesus, you know, and And I remember I felt really bad and I called you afterwards and I was like, hey did

01:02:39

I screw up big time? And you're like no. No, you didn't you know, I think you had basically said hey, you know

01:02:46

What would you do if someone asked you are you sure you're a Christian? You know, I'd be like well

01:02:51

I mean, I just look back in my life and and what the Bible says and it seems

01:02:57

I'm pretty I'm pretty certain You know that God's God saved me right, but then this this guy's reaction was immediately to just crumple basically and The reason why well the reason why is because the

01:03:13

Bible those who Follow God because of an experience they can be talked out of following him because of an experience.

01:03:22

Mm -hmm Because I mean that's what it's based on. It's based on experience for them instead of revelation if that makes sense

01:03:29

Yeah, but anyways, keep on going. No No I mean that was the end of the story essentially and the only reason

01:03:35

I I bring it up is just because you know this It was really sad honestly, maybe some people might hear me tell a story like that and and they think that my

01:03:47

I Get some kind of weird sick satisfaction out of you know

01:03:55

To put it lightly ruining this guy's day, right? But the reality is honestly

01:04:02

I was really sad now I wasn't necessarily sad You know

01:04:09

Like I regretted saying what I said I didn't I don't regret saying what

01:04:14

I said to him asking the questions I did what was really sad is knowing that this guy for years at this point

01:04:21

I think three or four years was totally convinced. He was a Christian But then the reality was that he wasn't

01:04:29

And and who knows what visited him whether he made it up in his head or or it was something, you know

01:04:36

Demonic or whatever it was, but whatever it was it was deceptive Right, and and he had been deceived for years and and if he had died at any point

01:04:46

You know before I had that conversation with him. He would have gone to hell but he wouldn't have known that he was going to hell and until it was too late and You know, he couldn't change anything at that point and and that's what's really sad about this type of like hey

01:05:05

God, God can speak to us today. It seemed it seems like hey, we're we're just laughing about it.

01:05:10

We're joking about it Yeah, haha, Beth Moore. No, God didn't tell you to go brush that guy's hair, you know, whatever this is a serious deal because You know

01:05:20

It's sending people to hell It's deceiving people and and people are building their entire faith on This type of idea that God is still speaking to us today

01:05:30

So I just bring that all up because I think it is really sad and it's very deceptive

01:05:37

Yeah, I mean second Peter I did a sermon on second Peter once talk the title of it was scriptures more reliable than your experience essentially, but Peter talks about Essentially in second

01:05:49

Peter that we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of the

01:05:54

Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. So like we didn't follow myths, right?

01:06:00

he says For when we received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was born to him by the majestic glory

01:06:06

This is my beloved son with whom I am well, please. He's just interesting. Hey, we're eyewitnesses of God We saw him transfigured in his glory on earth, right?

01:06:15

He says when we received that is He says we ourself heard the very voice born from heaven for we were with him on the holy mountain

01:06:24

They heard God speak directly to them, right? If anyone wants to know about an experience that anyone had

01:06:29

Peter had best, you know experience of direct If I have a relation that anyone could have right?

01:06:34

But then he says in verse 19 and we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed To which you would do well to pay attention as a lamp shining in dark place

01:06:43

Until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your heart He essentially says in the scriptures We have something more fully confirmed than even the best experience you've ever come up with right?

01:06:53

Mm -hmm, and he says you would do well to pay attention to it, right? So here's the thing I mean like scriptures more reliable and people's experience and if someone's entire experience is based on mysticism

01:07:03

It'll fall in a couple, you know, and and that's the thing That's why we're talking about two different religions is what we're talking about in this kind of podcast like just your typical

01:07:13

Standard, you know big -box Evangelicalism kind of charismatic light kind of experience is is an experience of Christianity that has no substance to it

01:07:23

It's shallow it will fall and it doesn't help people. That's the problem You know, they you know, they go running around all day long talking about all the things that God is telling them

01:07:32

But the problem is when things get actually hard in their life They have no root in them and they fall away from the faith over and over and over again

01:07:39

They're just like the guy you described because it's all based on this these experiences, which are not self -interpreted

01:07:45

You know what I'm saying? Mm -hmm. They're not self -interpretive And they're not gonna ground people.

01:07:50

They're not gonna make them stable in their faith They're basically just wandering around trying to hear from God, you know

01:07:56

Everything that they want to know and the problem is eventually they're gonna make a few calls that were wrong, right? Yeah, the things that they thought that God was telling them

01:08:04

I can't tell you how many times I've had people come and just like hey, you know I thought God wanted me to take the job and you know, then

01:08:09

I lost my job It's just like I don't know what to do anymore It's just like am I cursed and how do I even know God's speaking to me anymore?

01:08:16

and then they don't even want to be a Christian and that's what we're talking about is because they're grounding their faith in some Kind of mystical experience and it fails them eventually.

01:08:23

Mm -hmm. That makes sense. Yeah Yeah And you know and that's why it's important, you know because you're talking about two different legends at that point and just to go back to that verse that I brought up earlier in my story to you know,

01:08:37

I said that I read Hebrews 1 to this guy and and it's right here right in the beginning of The right in the beginning of the book verse 1 it says long ago

01:08:47

God spoke to our ancestors by the prophets at different times and in different ways.

01:08:53

So in that first verse He's talking about the Old Testament, you know, God spoke to the Israelites through prophets

01:08:58

So God was directly speaking to people but then in verse 2 it says in these last days.

01:09:04

He has spoken to us by his Son God has appointed him heir of all things and made the universe through him

01:09:12

The Sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of his nature

01:09:17

Sustaining all things by his powerful word and and so it seems pretty clear at that point, you know

01:09:23

He's he's called the author of Hebrews is calling Jesus the word right just like John John does at the beginning of that gospel and it seems to be pretty clear that The word is now

01:09:38

The way that God is speaking to us Now that Christ has come died and ascended back into heaven.

01:09:45

Is that an accurate? Description of that verse do you think? Yeah, I mean if many people who are you know convinced of a cessationist kind of position that basically

01:09:57

God has finishes speaking they're gonna go to Hebrews 1 and they're gonna be talking about Jesus being the pinnacle and the climax of all of God's revelatory acts and so Jesus himself is the word made flesh who dwells among us essentially

01:10:12

If that makes sense And so this divine word is the word who's going to exegete to declare the

01:10:18

Father to make him known to us Jesus is the pinnacle of that and so this is one of those passages say that basically just says that God God had

01:10:26

Spoken to his people in former ways and in the whole argument of book of Hebrews is that Christ is supreme in every way

01:10:33

And so Jesus becomes the you know supreme form of revelation and that's just one piece in The pot that you put together to build the position, but I think that's a significant place to go that is

01:10:46

God had former ways of speaking and yeah in these last days. He's spoken to the Sun There's a contrast there, right?

01:10:53

So He but but in these last days he's spoken to the Sun He's pointed to the air of all things.

01:11:00

So there's um, there seems to be some significant difference in the way He's spoken through Jesus then with the others and that gets you know, one foot in the right door.

01:11:09

Yeah, I think yeah answer What's going on here? Yeah, it seems like there's a shift but then that does bring me to basically our our final

01:11:18

Question that I want I want to just see what you have to say now Obviously, we've been talking about Script you know scripture is the final word now

01:11:29

God God's not speaking directly to us anymore because he doesn't have to But that does

01:11:35

I I do have a question You know when it when it comes to How God spoke to the

01:11:43

Apostles after Christ had come died Been raised from the dead and then ascended into heaven.

01:11:51

There's still a few visions that do happen after after You know

01:11:59

Christ died and ascended You know the primary examples of this would be

01:12:08

You know Peter's vision in Acts Stephen the the first martyr he says he sees he sees

01:12:17

God and then probably the most prominent example would be

01:12:24

John and his book Revelation, you know, he has several different Visions of God throughout that book that make up the book and and he's basically giving a apocalyptic prophecy

01:12:41

That whole book. Well, maybe not the whole book, but you know a large majority of that book And so it's the revelation of Jesus Christ, which

01:12:47

God gave. Yep. Yeah, I think it's a revelation. Yeah, and so So my question is, you know, if if God has stopped speaking to us directly

01:12:59

Once Christ came then why are we still seeing? You know examples of Visions happening isn't that?

01:13:09

Shouldn't that at least give us pause to say, you know, hey, maybe maybe he is still speaking directly today

01:13:17

So, you know because it could be if if we don't understand this correctly, we could accidentally, you know, basically neuter

01:13:27

A lot of the old, you know, I mean not the Old Testament the New Testament Yeah The warning of Deuteronomy 18 applies

01:13:37

It essentially if God has more words to speak and you're saying he doesn't then here God God says he will require to view

01:13:43

So it's just as bad to you know, erase words that God has as it is to add words, right?

01:13:49

We shouldn't add or take away but yeah, you could add there's You know the whole thing that happens at Acts 2 with Pentecost and the you know the

01:13:58

Which Peter says it's a fulfillment of your son's and daughter's prophecy prophesied y 'all to kind of thing

01:14:04

Do you have that happening post Pentecost? You have like the Paul says his very words are the words of Scripture So all the

01:14:11

New Testament letters are essentially post revelator Post ascension, you know words from the

01:14:16

Lord essentially. So that's what the entire New Testament is and right How do you deal with just the reality that if Jesus is the final word then how

01:14:26

How come there seems to be other direct words after that? And how do we have any kind of rationale as to when they stop?

01:14:34

Is that fair? Mm -hmm. Yeah Okay. Yeah, so I think it's It's not really a difficult question to answer

01:14:43

To answer as far as that goes and an easy place There's a couple easy places to go and I'll just talk about them pretty quickly so Luke 1 1 through 3

01:14:54

Luke says is met in as much as many as undertaken to compile a narrative of things have been accomplished among us just as those who were from the beginning where eyewitnesses and Ministers of the word have delivered them to us

01:15:06

It seemed to me also having follow all things closely for some time past to write an orderly account to you most excellent

01:15:12

Theophilus that you may have certainty concerning the things you you were taught So one of the things that happens is, you know, the

01:15:19

Gospels are writing there the gospel writers are eyewitnesses To the life and ministry of Jesus, right?

01:15:26

So when you think about the Gospels proper You're having a record Luke tells us that he's compiling this record of all the things that Jesus did and taught

01:15:34

Essentially while he is alive. Does that make sense? Mm -hmm So when you're dealing with the

01:15:39

Gospels, that's what you're looking at Now you go to like the beginning of Acts Luke. He says in the first book.

01:15:45

Oh Theophilus. That's the book of Luke, right? The gospel Luke I dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day he was taken up But then he says after he had given commands through the

01:15:54

Holy Spirit to the Apostles whom he had chosen Okay, so if you think about it this way Before Jesus goes if you remember what he says to his disciples in the upper room

01:16:04

He says I still have many more things to teach you, right? Says I have many more things to teach you, but you can't bear them right now

01:16:11

But after I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit and he's gonna guide you into all truth essentially, right? So one of the things that you have is if you think about what the

01:16:19

New Testament is the first four books of the Gospels So they're their eyewitness records of all Jesus did and taught while he was alive

01:16:25

But then after he had given commands to his apostles to his apostles by the Holy Spirit whom he was going to send, right?

01:16:32

So what happens is, you know post Jesus's Ascension You have the

01:16:37

Apostles who are essentially waiting around and you know a room scared to death and everything else and they're waiting for the

01:16:43

Holy Spirit to come when the Holy Spirit comes the Holy Spirit gives All those additional commands that Jesus had to give to the

01:16:50

Apostles. Does that make sense? Yeah, and so the entire rest of the New Testament is a record of Jesus's essentially additional

01:16:58

Commands through the Apostles. So the revelation here's the point the revolution of Christ came in two phases It came during his earthly ministry and then it came in his post apostolic

01:17:12

Ministry by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit if that makes sense So the whole New Testament basically is just this final revelation of God that has come to us in two phases

01:17:22

And so you say well what rationale is it for that final, you know revelation to be done?

01:17:28

Does that make sense? Is that kind of the next question that comes to mind? Yeah. Yeah Well, how do we know that he's not still doing it?

01:17:34

well Then essentially what you do at that point is you're just building a theology of what an apostle actually is if that makes sense

01:17:42

So an apostle is is a is a divine Is an individual who's divinely chosen by God who was actually an eyewitness of God's Resurrection so, you know

01:17:52

Paul defines his own test as an apostle at various places within the New Testament But he says, you know, am

01:17:58

I not an apostle? Have I not seen the risen Lord and didn't I do the signs of an apostle among you with much patience?

01:18:04

And so basically to be an apostle basically you're following the old the pattern of the Old Testament Prophets in general.

01:18:10

So when God raises up like a prophet like Moses He gives him certain signs to perform in order to establish him as a prophet

01:18:16

And so with Moses, you know, he had the lepers hand. He had the serpent staff He turned the water into blood, you know when he makes his

01:18:22

New Testament apostles It says he gave them signs and wonders to perform, right? He gave him power over all unclean spirit and power to heal every manner of disease

01:18:30

And so they went and they cast out demons and then the hill They were given power over diseases and when you think about what happened with Paul He accepts miracles were being done in that day that they could you know touch

01:18:42

Hanker chef from Paul and be healed as far as that goes and so Paul says, you know I I performed the signs of an apostle among you with great patience.

01:18:50

And so Paul was established as an apostle of the Lord because he was eyewitness testimony performed the signs of an apostle

01:18:57

He was established to be speaking directly from God by the end of his ministry. He can't even heal Timothy anymore

01:19:03

He says, you know drink some wine for your stomach as far as that goes. And so essentially if you're gonna have new additional prophets

01:19:10

They're gonna have to seem to risen Lord and have been been given the signs of an apostle and everything else if that makes sense

01:19:18

But then, you know the the but you know, you're you're basically Limited as far as the scope of that kind of thing because You know, you have a

01:19:30

New Testament Jesus has 12 apostles and then They picked one more by drawing lots and then

01:19:38

Lord chose Paul directly but you know, so essentially part of your argument for say cessation is in general cessation is

01:19:47

Dealing with what does it mean to be a New Testament apostle as far as that goes? So, mm -hmm but essentially what you have happened is the revelation of Christ came in two phases during his earthly ministry and his post -resurrection ministry to the

01:19:59

Apostles whom he had chosen as Luke's talked about in verse in Acts So that's kind of a convoluted like long answer to the question about I had to make it shorter

01:20:09

No, I think that's good. I just wanted to ask that because I Think it is kind of a natural

01:20:16

Question at least it's one that I kind of came to when I was thinking about this topic is how exactly how exactly does the

01:20:27

You know, how exactly does divine inspiration work? How exactly do the visions work?

01:20:33

And And yet still we can simultaneously say hey got God's done speaking directly to us

01:20:40

Because he doesn't have to anymore. So so how exactly does that work together? And I wanted to I wanted to you know

01:20:47

Give you a chance to kind of clear that up for our listeners who might have wondered the same thing

01:20:53

But I think that's a good place For us to end on this topic. This has been another episode of Bible bashed

01:21:01

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01:21:24

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