Should Those Who Claim God Speaks to Them Directly Be Considered False Prophets?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject

Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of

heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty

God.

Is.

Hanging over our head.

They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath

come They will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man

died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day Has ascended to the right hand

of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods

of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand.

And.

Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to

ask.

We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim Mullett and today we seek to answer the age -old question Should

those who claim God speaks to them directly be considered false prophets.

Now receiving special words from God has become a very popular

idea in Christian in the Christian world, especially Surprisingly so

in traditionally cessationist denominations such as the SPC I mean you can just go

on Twitter and and look up different very popular SPC

figureheads and hear them regularly say things like I I heard from God

or God was telling me these kinds of phrases and so we felt it was really necessary to start

talking about This topic.

But Tim, maybe you could start off by just telling us, you know, why is this become such a big

deal?

Why is this become so popular even in groups that traditionally throughout, you know Throughout

history have not recognized this as a as a theological idea that God is still

Speaking directly to us today.

Yeah, well, I think you're probably understating the The nature of

the problem in the way that you've described it meaning.

You know, I think at this point right now when you're talking about groups like the SPC and and everything else I think we're at a

point right now where the SPC is essentially a charismatic denomination as far as.

Yeah, we're gonna have to do an episode on them, huh?

Yeah, sure.

Sure.

I mean, it's not I mean it used to be that You know SPC churches were

Very concerned about the charismatic movement, but right now we're functionally there's there's actually no difference between us and the charismatic

churches except that you know, most SPC churches aren't gonna speak in tongues or be

slaying in anyone in the spirit, but In terms of just the idea of continuing

biblical revelation We were basically charismatic as far as that goes and and it's it's pretty it's a pretty

Comprehensive error that I think that seeps into the the entire denomination at that point and and

and you know, I guess It's difficult to know how this has happened.

I know that If I were to try to ask or try to answer that

question, how has this come about.

There my mind is kind of pushing me in in a couple different directions all at once.

And so Because I'm largely coming from a reformed camp then I can

speak to those closest to me Theologically and why that's come about in that way but then

there are other influences that are coming from outside that are doing something similar to so we can try to speak to that

as well, but one of the things that's happened with the together for the gospel the gospel coalition kind of

movement is that there was basically.

I.

Think in you know in the early 2000s One of the things that happened is it?

With the creation of the gospel coalition with together for the gospel kind of movement he had a group of guys like Mark

Dever and Al Mohler CJ Mahaney CJ Mahaney was functionally a reformed

charismatic and and one of the things that that has Happened within the reformed world is there is basically a

ceasefire that was clear declared on the issue of continuing revelation it was just one of those things where

you had a group of guys who were wanting to unify around the gospel and then Part of that

unification because they were friends with CJ Mahaney and sovereign grace ministries.

One of the things that that unity extended to was extended to the charismatic Movement

itself and so within reformed circles you largely had a ceasefire that was Declared at that very

point to where you know the kind of conversations that have happened over the past Decade half or so

is that this is a secondary issue and let's not divide over it and one of the things that's happened Essentially is that not it not

only is it put in the secondary camp that you're not secondary issue kind of thing.

It's not you know, I'm gonna lead you to hell.

They they tell us so therefore let's leave it off the table but functionally you really weren't even

allowed to address the issue and so when MacArthur came along and caused a big

stink with a strange fire Conference and everything else and he's identifying it as a problem.

Like it's a problem that the reformed world is going charismatic I mean particularly when you know, the Western Westminster

Confession of Faith second lending of Faith has a strong statement on the sufficiency of scripture and there

are first article of the confession.

And so, you know in order to be reformed in charismatic.

That's functionally an oxymoron and it doesn't really fit any of the confessions and it's not something that really it's

like a historical novelty.

But it's something that largely these big groups, you know, biggie of evangelicalism have basically

declared We're not allowed to really talk about and so for many people.

It's just Not only is it just hey, well, it's considered a secondary issue.

But then if you try to push against it at all, you're considered divisive and hateful and just you know

Cranky and everything else and so it's almost you know considered wrong to step in and say hey.

What are we doing here as far as that goes?

And so there are movement.

So essentially that's what's happened within the reformed world but then in the broader Christian world at what one of the

things that's happened is that The vast majority of people really are influenced

primarily not by the scripture but by music when it comes down to it and so what's

happened essentially is that Christian radio stations are Have basically

set the theological tone for denominations like the SBC and so, you know.

One of the things that's happened is you have groups like Hillsong Bethel Elevation Church, I mean these are all

you know.

Grossly charismatic kind of organizations.

I mean, they're just you know.

Over there.

They're charismatic.

They're charismatic, but they're there I mean, they're the kind of organizations that are doing, you know things that just.

You know, if you just look into these kind of organizations, you'll see them doing absurd things like Gravesucking and

things like that.

I mean they are they're just grossly charismatic at that point but then one of the things that's happened essentially

is that.

They've taken over the Christian music scene in a pretty comprehensive way.

And so The vast majority of SBC churches are basically playing what's on the radio and the radio has been

taken over by the charismatic.

Essentially and so because the radio has been taken over by the charismatics essentially what happens at the congregational level

is that you know.

All your radio advertisers, you know on your standard Christian radio stations.

They're all charismatic and everything that's played now I mean, it's just at first it was subtle, you know, 10

years ago 15 years ago as subtle kind of prosperity charismatic stuff, but today it's just crass

like Crass prosperity charismatic garbage that's being played on the radio

at a pretty I mean, that's just a standard stuff I mean every single song you listen to it's gonna be about victory and it's gonna be about.

You know, it's gonna have a strong prosperity theme, you know and and everything else but functionally the charismatics

took over the music and and you know, we all like the charismatic music and so.

Fundamentally, I think that's why the SBC is gone charismatic, but it shows up at it.

You know, basically every single conceivable Way imaginable you have like big -name

influencers like Beth Moore who regularly?

Talk about hearing directly from God Christine Kane, you know all these big -name people

that are influencers within the broader Christian world, they're all charismatic as as far as that

goes and and so We're bit, you know, basically these denominations these big -name

denominations are more influenced by celebrity Christians who are charismatics and they are about by the Bible and

really they don't even understand what you know.

The issues really as far as that goes.

You basically just have a pop Christianity.

That's functionally mystical.

As far as that goes, but I think I think those are the two kind of major Things that are happening that have led to

a situation where I would say the vast majority of Christians today are

Unquestioningly charismatic as far as it goes.

Mm -hmm.

So yeah, I definitely charismatic.

You know just that's the vernacular that we talk about, you know, that's that's what's happening at a practical level.

Yeah, I definitely understated the issue at the beginning you brought up Beth Moore.

I know you and I are both well aware of the video that came out.

I mean it must have been what like eight years ago or six years ago.

Now where Beth Moore is is talking to a bunch of women and She

tells a story about how she was at the airport I think and she sees she sees this I

guess homeless guy at the airport.

Yeah.

And and she tells all the women there that God God specifically told her that she

didn't have to share the gospel with him.

She just had to go brush his hair.

Yeah, yeah, I mean if I mean if you're not if you're not like if if Warning bells aren't

going off in your head when you hear something like that.

I'm worried for you, you know, but the thing the thing is I think that was 2007 then that came out.

But I mean, that's wow 2007.

It's 15 years ago.

I think but the thing is, you know, they're warning bells are not going off in people's head.

That they aren't.

There's very few like there is very few people in the Christian world who List like who like if

who are having any warning bells Go off with Beth Moore and things like that.

And she says more certain things than that.

That's just Just tip of the iceberg, I mean she that's just her thing, you know, her

thing is just you know, hey girlfriend, you know, this is Talking

to her like a middle -aged, you know middle -aged White upper -class

woman, you know middle middle upper middle class.

What a woman, you know, I mean, that's just her thing.

You know, that's.

But.

I mean it like the thing is it it used to be that if you wanted to

Now basically start a church split you say anything negative about Beth Moore and you get all the women at the church mad at you.

And you know, you run out of the church.

I mean, I don't know that in the vast majority of churches today that won't happen if you criticize

More and so no one seems to think it's a problem.

That's that's the reason why is just just you know, everyone's listening to Christian radio and that's what's on there, you know.

That's all it is.

It's sentimental mysticism.

That's all on the radio stations today.

And I mean, it's just in -your -face crass, you know.

Continuationist garbage is what it is.

And you're and you're totally right about what you said earlier in your response to our first

question you brought up, you know, there there are a few people who are willing to

Say something about this John MacArthur being probably the primary example,

but then the issue is when when these few people say anything at all

and the reaction from the rest of the Evangelical Christian world is to

condemn Not the not the people saying the absurd things with the people calling out the people

saying the absurd things.

So when when John MacArthur says, you know about Beth Moore go home everyone says, oh, you know, you can't

don't say something like that.

You know when it's like hang on she's saying she's saying some wacky stuff.

She's saying so yeah, but this is pastors to I mean, you know, if actually most of your standard, you know

Pastors at SBC churches, I mean they're all mystical and Charismatic

and they don't even know it.

I mean, they don't even know how charismatic they are.

I mean in just how many times have you heard a pastor, you know talk about his vision for the church and

you know.

What God's leading us to do and what he's hearing from the Lord and you know.

Every time a pastor leaves a church, what does he say?

Well, I feel called to you know.

Go to the bigger church.

She's gonna pay.

And everything else I mean, it's just I mean this is the language you speak I mean I Harrison, you know when I've done interviews

for churches, you know, they've You know called me up and asked me questions about

about You know explain to me your call to the ministry.

I can't tell you how many times I just hate answering that question I absolutely hate answering that question

describe your call to the ministry.

Because what is expected of me in these settings when I'm trying to answer questions along those lines is

for me to Basically tell some mystical quasi charismatic story about how God, you know in some

way that wasn't audible.

Yeah basically told me short of words, but through my feelings or

Through circumstances or whatever else that he that not only was I commanded by him to be a pastor.

But that you know somehow there's some sort of guarantee that you know I'm gonna get some full -time ministry job

somewhere and you know.

Most of the time what they actually want to hear is me to stand before them and say yes I believe that you would be in

sin if you didn't.

Because God's told me Essentially, I mean not that I mean, I mean that's what you know, that's what

basically every you know.

And almost every you know pastor and churches in America when they go to you know interview for a church.

They're basically just telling people that Essentially, you know if you if you read through the subtext you better hire

me or else you're in sin because God's given me.

You know this strong confirmation, you know in so many ways that you know He has knit my heart together

with this church and given me such confidence that this is exactly where he wants me to be.

But all that's just a direct claim for revelate for direct divine revelation.

And so, you know when there's some major decision to be made, you know.

The pastor is sensing where the Lord is leading him and everything else and and and you know.

It these are functional claims of revelation and this is what all the pastors are doing, you know and if you don't do that, they think oh

man, like this guy is like, oh, you know, like So, let me get this straight.

God isn't telling you that you were commanded to be our pastor.

Well, I'm nervous about you, you know.

Other pastors have already interviewed for the same job and all said that God wanted them there.

I know and it's just like well, which one of you guys is getting stoned and which one?

Okay, we got a rock collection here and what's all right.

We're gonna hire this one and you guys are all false prophets apparently, you know, but I mean no one thinks in those terms I mean no one's

thinking along those lines, but I mean it's it's like that's I mean, that's just standard if you don't play that game.

Then what happens is, you know, if you don't play that game people think you're not very spiritual for one.

And then they don't trust like the decisions you're leading them to do because it doesn't feel like you know.

You're sensing what got like what they want to hear is some sort of claim to direct divine revelation.

So that everyone can be comfortable and just okay.

Well, I guess that means if the things from the Lord, you know.

Who are we to disagree and everyone can just chalk it up to you know, well God told him, you know.

Yeah, but but I mean, you know functionally if you don't do that, everyone's suspicious of you.

But then if you do that, I mean you're a scoundrel and you're a liar because you know that God didn't say that.

That's the problem.

But so I mean, it's not just Beth Moore.

It's just I mean, that's just a standard, you know.

Yeah, the situation, you know across the board with.

With all pastors when it comes to decision -making and things like that, it's just it's a bunch of mystical garbage.

So as we continue this conversation, it might be helpful just if we define

Some of these terms that we're using just to make I think most people probably will pick up on what

exactly we mean.

But just in case there are some people who might still be confused.

Tim Could you just take a minute and and define what we mean when we're when we're talking

about God speaking directly to people.

What exactly what exactly do we mean.

What all falls under that umbrella?

Sure, yeah, so I Guess the two major terms that are that we're talking about when we're talking

about this kind of discussion is are the terms Cessationism and continuationism and so cessationism

is the belief that God God's Word Essentially is complete and it's

sufficient.

And so we we have in the you know, 66 books of the Bible.

We have a completed canon God said all the things that he needed to say and we have everything

we need now for life and godliness in the scriptures and You know from a

cessationist kind of position there's no Expectation of any additional

direct divine revelation from God meaning his revelation to man is

complete and What we have today is the the Bible, you know with the addition of the New

Testament scriptures God's finished speaking.

Now the continuationist position is essentially the opposite of that.

Which is basically just saying that God will continue to speak to people through dreams or through visions or through you

know direct Verbal revelation or you know, most often it's through their feelings

essentially.

And so one of the things that's happened that Really what distinguishes most

like formal charismatic denominations and you know, you're

Functionally charismatic denominations like the SPC now and things like that.

What basically distinguishes these two things is that in your you know your standard straight -up

Benny Hinn charismatic movement kind of stuff.

There is some expectation that people are gonna say thus says the Lord and then they're gonna tell you here God I have a

word for you very specifically and they're gonna say God told me to tell you X or Y or Z or something.

Like that, right?

So that's kind of old -school charismatic.

That's the old -school charismatic kind of way of communicating that I mean you'd find that in your you know your

Hillsong and your Bethel and your You know your big, you know, Churchill Highlands megachurch kind of

charismatic stuff.

But in your old -school charismatic stuff, you're gonna have that Up until like speaking in tongues.

So, you know babble that is It not really language just babble

that is being equated with direct divine revelation where someone may or may not interpret it.

That kind of thing but what happened was happened in more of the mainstream SPC kind of world is

essentially There's not as much of an expectation as direct divine revelation

like that, but there is going to be essentially Equal kind of claims to

direct divine revelation in that a person couldn't be like I feel like God is telling me X and that's gonna be some

sort of.

They're gonna discern that somehow through, you know the promptings of the Holy Spirit or the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in their heart or

you know.

The.

Chord progression in this Indigestion or something else but it's gonna be kind of

quasi verbal like You'll have people basically talk about you know, I Wasn't

quite audible, but I know it's what he wants me to you know hear from this or that, you know

Favorable circumstances or their mood or whatever else it is if that makes sense.

And so but it essentially in your mainstream Christian world You're gonna have some sort of appeal to

some sort of extra biblical revelation that is discerned apart from reading the Bible.

But then through you know promptings or feelings or you know subjective Circumstances or

situations, but that's more your mainstream kind of SPC charismatic

stuff that's happening if that makes sense.

Mm -hmm, but you have any follow -up on that?

Yeah, so.

Do things like Dreams fall into this category as well.

Yeah, I mean I think in your mostly in your mainstream charismatic movement you're gonna still have people talking about

dreams and visions and power encounters and you know that kind of stuff or

the speaking in tongues or.

Just direct verbal, you know, you know, you're crass prosperity preachers who were talking about God just

you know.

Talking to them while they're shaving kind of stuff.

So all the dreams and visions I would say that's largely the you know, the charismatic territory

still but then in the SPC world in your mainstream Evangelical Christian world is going to be more

just through sensing and feeling and you know God still small boys kind of stuff like

so it won't be verbal or I Don't I don't know that many SPC people are gonna be talking about dreams and

visions and that kind of stuff but they're gonna more talk about the Quasi almost is, you know,

it's almost as if God spoke but didn't quite but we should treat it as if he did kind of.

Stuff if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

And and the other.

The other term that I wanted to ask you to define for our listeners is if you could just take a minute

and maybe fill out people's idea of.

Of what a false prophet is and and what exactly you know, the Bible would consider to be a false

prophet.

Yeah, sure.

So I think part of what's happened with the charismatic movement and the rise of the charismatic movement and the rise of Just

like the gospel coalition.

And.

T4g and all that you know the the idea of a Reformed

charismatic has kind of been mainstreamed and part of that's been done through a guy named Rick

Wayne Grudem.

And so he's kind of the theologian for that charismatic movement as far as that goes.

But then he came up with this idea of fallible prophecy essentially where when you

Trying to distinguish Old Testament.

Like what false prophet is in the Old Testament verse what is prophecy in the New Testament?

So he invented this concept of fallible prophecy saying this essentially different but the

problem is I think as you read through the scriptures one of the things you're gonna find is there's two major test of

of the false prophet in The Old Testament, okay, so the two passages I'm

thinking about a Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 essentially.

So Deuteronomy 18 18 through 22 basically gives you part of this

definition of a false prophet and Then Deuteronomy 13 gives you another part of it.

So Deuteronomy 13 1 through 3.

But essentially I start with Deuteronomy 18 It says I'll raise up for them a prophet like you from among their

brothers and I'll put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all I have commanded him and whoever will not listen to my

words that I shall speak in my name I myself will require it of him now.

I mean, it's this amazing passage because essentially God is promising that you know, he raises up

Moses and Basically, he's not done with Revelation with Moses, but Moses is kind of your stereotypical

Old Testament prophet as far as that goes.

You know, I got Moses is basically if you know the Type of the archetype

of a prophet in the Old Testament essentially.

But God's gonna have other prophets.

He's gonna raise up and they all kind of follow a similar formula, but then Basically God says who you know, he's

gonna raise up more prophets like Moses.

Okay, and whoever doesn't listen to my words.

I speak in my name I myself will require it of him meaning like you better when I raise up a prophet you better listen to him, right?

But then verse 20 says but the prophet who presumes to speak a word my name I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods

that same prophet shall die so basically you you have a Pretty serious situation

here, right?

So God says I'm gonna send you a prophet like Moses and you better listen to him.

And if you don't I'm gonna require it of you meaning like if you don't listen to this prophet, you're disobeying me, right?

But then the prophet though that presumes to speak in my name it who I didn't command To be a

prophet that prophets gonna die.

So this is like pretty harsh terms either way, right?

So so but then the thing is God knows that like So think about it this way like you have a prophet

person comes to you and says hey that says the Lord.

They're making a claim of divine authority.

They're basically saying you better do what I'm saying or you're in sin and God's gonna judge you.

That's a pretty significant thing.

But then in the Old Testament, there's a pretty significant penalty for you know, messing that up, right?

But then.

There's a very natural question that's asked in verse 21 of 18.

It says if if you say in your heart, how will we know the word the Lord has not spoken?

I Mean, that's the kind of question I have right?

Yeah, I'm just gonna run around say I'm speaking for God I want to know well, how do I know if that's from God or you

know, that's just his indigestion, right?

Is that from God or are they just on drugs, right?

Like how do we know how do we know right?

Cuz you know.

That's a pretty significant claim that's this being made so it says how will we know well verse 22 when a prophet speaks in the

Name of the Lord if the word does not come to pass or come true.

That is a word.

The Lord has not spoken.

The prophet has spoken at presumption weight.

Presumptuously you need not be afraid of him.

So like here's the thing like God says if a prophet presumes to speak a word my name I've not commanded

to speak or speaks in the name of other gods that same prophet will die.

Here's the thing.

So there's a one -strike -you're -out policy in the Old Covenant.

If you presume to speak a word and it does not come to past.

The you know, the Old Covenant command was to kill that prophet and for good reason, right?

For good reason because there's no, you know greater way to cause chaos among God's people than to run around

claiming to speak for God.

Divine authoritative words that people are commanded to obey or else God will judge them, right?

There's no other way to.

No other way to but the cause chaos and to do that and so there's a one -strike -you're -out policy.

So basically, you know, you have you think about what the charismatic movement and all these, you know.

People were predicting the Lord's return.

They predicted at four times now five times now.

You know if they were living under the Old Covenant, they'd be put to death and for good reason now I mean, so the first test there is you know,

is there a hundred percent accuracy to the prophets words.

100 % accuracy?

There's no toleration or margin for error and all if if they're gonna say that Lord spoke.

It's up in it better come to pass or or else they're to be put to death, right?

But then the problem though is that you know, Satan does counterfeit miracles as well, right?

And so You know when Moses is sent as the prophet to God's people.

You know a lot of the signs that Moses performs.

He sent to perform the Egyptian magicians were able to do because there are other supernatural powers in the world besides God,

right?

So Deuteronomy 13 says if a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder in that sign.

Or wonder that he tells you comes to past.

Right comes to pass.

So if it comes true and and if he says let us go after other gods.

Which you have not known and let us serve them.

You shall not listen to the words that prophet or dreamer of dreams for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether or Not you love the Lord your God with all

your heart and soul.

So here's the thing there's in the Old Covenant.

There's two tests for a false prophet one.

Is it 100 % accuracy?

Did it come to pass and then two, you know, even if it does come to pass.

Are they leading you to serve other gods?

Are they contradicting?

You know God's written words in any way if so, like that prophet.

You're being tested by the Lord.

And so there's two Tests there within the Old Covenant and I would say that you know readily related

to the modern charismatic movement.

The problem is that we have these two tests in the Old Testament.

I don't see any reason why.

We like if we were to just follow these tests.

Then the charismatic movement essentially would be dead.

But I mean it would you know, you wouldn't have this, you know.

Ridiculous situation that we're living under right now where everyone's just claiming, you know.

All these words from the Lord, you know on a regular basis and trivializing the thing to where it's just absolute chaos

you know if we if we realize how serious this actually is to claim to speak in the name of the Lord and.

And you know, and I'm not talking again.

We're not talking about some sort of vigilante justice or something like that.

I'm just we're talking about though if you lived in a Christian society where That was

actually considered a Punishable offense and that way

you would have a lot less false prophets, you know.

But even if the church uses power of excommunication to start excommunicating people who are Claiming to speak in the name

in the name of the Lord words that are not true.

We would you know, we could clean up the radio stations.

We could clean up our churches if we would just you know, follow what God says there.

I think it's pretty obvious to look around and see that we don't exactly

exactly.

You know treat Prophecy the same way the Israelites in the Old Testament would have it.

Is that safe to say Tim?

Yeah.

So, you know with that bass and I had it really I mean, I Mean unless you just get really

weird, you know like the only time someone really is gonna like get offended about it is if.

Like you're in a scenario where what you're being told is different from what you want to do.

In some substantial way, you know.

So, you know the guy goes up to the girl or something like that.

And it says the Lord is just telling me that you're to be my next wife, you know.

It's like well, you know, unfortunately the Lord's telling me that.

It seems we have an impact through the Ouija ball.

You know for the through the Ouija ball that I was supposed to marry this other dude, you know.

And that's not you.

That wasn't the name that came up.

So what do we do?

You know?

Yeah.

No, yeah, so like I was saying we at that point then it's like oh, hey, you know, we're all cessationists at that

point.

You know, but.

But if it's something you want to hear then.

Actually, it's.

You're all charismatics all day long, you know, so.

Like I was saying, you know, obviously we don't really treat.

We don't really treat prophecy the same way the Israelites and the Old Testament would have so kind of turning us

back to the title.

Question of the episode.

Do you think we should be treating prophecy the same way the old the Old Testament Israelites would have meaning?

You know, do you think?

We should treat the people who claim that they're receiving, you know, a special Private

word from God that we should treat them as false prophets.

I'm absolutely I think we should I understand how.

When you know you're in a you know judges kind of situation where everyone's

doing what's right in their own eyes and and you you have such a long history of

Years and years and years and all your major Evangelical figures who are functionally charismatic in certain ways.

I understand how that sounds kind of shocking to say.

But I mean obviously if you're just reading the Bible and you're saying hey, I'm gonna think about Prophecy the way God

talks about it within his word.

Then if we would just do what the Bible says we would clean everything up pretty good, you know as

far as that goes.

And so I mean, I think part of the problem is that you know.

For most people who are doing the Beth Moore kind of thing or you know, okay.

Hey, I think God's telling me this or I think God's telling me that.

Often it's like you can't really tell.

With the person, you know, are they Making a claim to direct

divine revelation or is this just kind of a You know horribly uncareful

way of communicating Sanctified wisdom or something along those

lines, you know, so like what is actually being communicated here.

In terms of you know, you just have the person standing there and just saying yeah I just feel like God wants me to.

You know take the job, you know.

Feel like God is telling me to take the job or whatever, you know, what's what happened there?

You know and often I'm the kind of person who in that kind of situation I'm gonna look at the person and saying hey, are you

are you saying that God?

Told you audibly in some way to take the job, you know.

Oh, no.

No, no.

Are you telling me then that like somehow he told you through your feelings that you should take the job and then once

they get you know.

Catch on that.

I'm pushing back against it.

Look then it gets a lot fuzzier as far as that goes, but generally, no, I think it would be wonderful

if if if we could regain a cessationist kind of theology

and all of us start actively.

You know pushing back against this a lot stronger than what we do and actually saying hey, you know start just

using biblical words for the kind of people who are Doing this very thing, you know, and

one of those biblical words is to start calling people false prophets.

I think that would be entirely helpful.

If we would be encouraging people to repent of being false prophets, you know at this point.

Certainly draw the lines more clearly and as far as that goes sure.

Now obviously this kind of movement you know this kind of charismatic movement

is very popular, right.

And It wouldn't it wouldn't be popular if people weren't

you know fixated on it for some reason if they weren't Drawn to it for some reason.

So I'm wondering Tim Why exactly?

What exactly is it about this kind of idea that God still speaks to us today is so

enticing for so many people.

You know that that we would basically be willing to completely overlook how the

Bible treats prophecy in general.

The issue is no one's overlooking with the Bible.

No one's overlooking what the Bible talks about with prophecy.

They have no idea what it says.

They're not even looking man, like that's the whole thing.

I mean like that the whole problem is the reason why I mean in order to try to Answer your question.

I mean like the thing is this has gained such popularity is because no one reads the Bible.

Like that, why would you ever read the Bible?

Why would you read the Bible if God will just talk to you through your feelings.

Right.

So, I mean, that's the whole thing like that.

Like the whole pole the whole draw of this thing the whole thing that that encourages people to like to

approach it.

This is a different religion.

It's not even the same religion.

We're not we're not even approaching the life and in the same way I mean Harrison, I'm the kind

of person who thinks to myself.

You know if I want to know what God says about something.

I'm the kind of person who will read through the whole Bible to try to ask.

What is he said at every passage about this topic?

Okay, that's what I do.

I mean, I've like there's been questions I've asked us like what does God say about you know who to marry for instance or

something like that?

But when I was single and I read through the New Testament and I read through the Old Testament I read through the New Testament multiple times

and I made a list of all the things that addressed marriage.

Just for just just to find out what it said about that topic in the New Testament in the Old Testament.

You know, I've just read through it and then made a list of things and then made observations after that.

Now if you're a charismatic, you know, or if you're just a popular Christian person who gets her theology from Beth Moore or

something like that.

There's no reason to do any of that.

Why in the world would you do any of that?

Right?

That sounds like a lot of work.

So like the vast majority of like Christians today, you know professing Christians say they're not reading their

Bibles.

Like they're just listening to you know, their feelings or their intuition or they're listening to like

they're following their heart.

You know, they're doing the Disney thing, you know.

And essentially what happens is, you know, God seems to always be telling them to do exactly what they want to do.

Anyways.

So but then if you say hey, you know that maybe that's not God speaking maybe that's just.

You know you.

Like.

That may just be that it sounds like you just are saying God's saying exactly what you want to

say.

You know, then it's just like you've challenged their entire Christianity at that point because their entire Christianity is built on

mysticism.

And so I mean in that and that's the thing.

It's just like this is a very it.

I mean, it's a very attractive thing, right?

I mean, it's very attractive kind of View of God in general like if you just talk about what's the draw?

Well, the draw is you don't ever have to read your Bible and you can get direct access from God Whenever you want through your feelings and then

conveniently it there's no way to like push against it in any way, right?

Mm -hmm, so it's like unfalsifiable.

So it's just like hey God wants you to marry me, right?

If you're the guy saying God wants you to marry me, you know, it's just like well if you don't do it You're disobeying God, right?

So I always get what I want in that system and then God always tells me what I wanted to tell me.

Right and like that's the way it works and and then it takes all the work out of it It takes all the actual study out of it

everything else.

And so part of it's that part of it's just That you know the vast majority of Christians I do I

really do think that they they care much more about what popular Christian musicians say

then like or whatever the famous celebrities say then their pastors or You know

reading of Scripture himself.

I think that most people they just they've never really they don't even know how to go to the Bible and Read it

and get observations from it.

And that's not something that no, they're normally doing They're just taking their cues about what God wants them to do from popular Christian

celebrities as far as that goes.

And so I don't know is that.

Yeah, I think that answers a large majority of it and I think you're probably right with you know.

If I had to guess probably ninety nine point five percent of all people, you know.

Who think this way about God still speaking it probably.

Realistically is it just it does just boil down to.

They probably don't really Value reading or studying the Bible the way that they should and so

what happens then is, you know Inevitably, you're not gonna really know anything that that.

It says right if you it's not surprising that if you don't ever read it You're not gonna know what it says.

And so that probably applies to the majority of people.

I do still have a question though.

About that other, you know point five percent and these aren't necessarily, you know

accurate Precise numbers.

I went and polled everyone who was charismatic.

About why I think you're.

You know, despite the fact that 99 % of all statistics are made up on the spot including that one.

I think your numbers are probably right.

I might even I might even be being a little generous with my.

But there are still people who come to my mind that Don't necessarily strike me

as the type who just don't know their Bible very well.

So I Know earlier you had you had brought up Wayne Grudem.

Another guy that I think of is Dr. Michael Brown.

Who who.

I think you've you know him?

I mean not personally, but you you recognize.

You you recognize that name, you know who that is.

They you know, they don't strike me as the type of people who are necessarily Ignorant when it comes

to the scriptures when it meaning like they don't study their Bible.

Right, they don't read it.

So, well, what what is do you do you disagree.

I.

Would put Grudem and Michael Brown and two very different categories.

I think there's been a movement that's like tried to mainstream Michael Brown, but there is no there's no

heretic that Michael Michael Brown is essentially the apologist for all charismatics out there.

And now the thing about Michael Brown is he's like he's a Hebrew scholar and so like I think he's

He knows Hebrew better than I'll ever know it sure, you know as far as that goes but there's no like notorious

heretic out there that Michael Brown has not defended and enabled in certain ways or Anything

and so he's a guy that you don't want to go to like it is discernment wise for anything I

mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't want I wouldn't you know Send my dog to him

to get discernment tips as far as that goes to which I wouldn't have you know because I'm not I

Don't have a vested interest in naming my food but.

But no, I think him and what Grudem are in very different classes of people I mean they used to refer

to you know Michael Brown doesn't knock him down Brown and in the revivals because he used to knock people down now

as far as so, but I think He's he's the kind of guy

who you know has never met a false prophet or charlatan that he doesn't like and he has zero

discernment, you know as far as that goes, but So but with someone like Grudem, I think one of the

things that's happened

What you're right, you're right in terms of the Statistics of things.

Okay.

So I mean the vast majority of my people I know are basically just you know, Chris like they're getting their

theology from Christian celebrities.

That's what they're doing.

Okay, right and so the vast majority of them are you know, they're not reading their Bible on their own.

They'd never even thought about these issues.

They don't even know that there's an issue here to be discussed.

They're not approaching it from some sort of academic like lens of trying to you know, determine the difference between

cessationism and and Continuationism or anything else and we know what those words mean.

They don't know what we're talking about.

They're basically just reading, you know, Jesus calling by Sarah Young and the Beth Moore books, you know.

There.

They're reading the practicing the presence of God by Henry by could be a kind of stuff and they're basically just you know

All this stuff that all this mystical stuff that their pastors are recommending there.

They're reading it without any kind of question and they've developed basically just this

mystical kind of God speaks to me directly approach to the Christian life and there's.

That's what's happening if that makes sense.

And so there are so but what's happened though is with you know The t4g that together for the gospel

movement in general.

One of the things that's happened is be like everyone's mainstreaming this

Charismatic error essentially is what what's happened?

And so now you have people coming along who like have something like you have scholars coming along who are

basically doing the Dirty work for the charismatic and trying to figure out well, how

can we you know?

How can we get these two were incompatible worlds to mesh together as far as that goes?

Does that make sense?

Mm -hmm.

And so I think at that point you have guys like Grudem who functionally I mean Grudem is not going

to be the kind of guy who Is going to be speaking in tongues or anything else?

I think he's he's he's basically a kind of guy who's just gonna Be saying hey, you know,

like I'm trying to figure out how to how God can how to work all these

things together and all my friends now are charismatic and a lot of my friends are quasi charismatics and

he's trying to think the best of everyone and come up with a way to Figure out how to put the pieces

together for everyone in a way that makes sense as far as that goes, you know.

But those are few and far between I think the vast like the kind of people on the ground level.

Like basically what happens is the people who are researching the thing at all are typically the kind of people who are mad at

you for Telling them that God doesn't speak to them directly then they go and they like because they have

they're now mad at you because you.

You know, here's how it works right Harrison.

Here's how it works.

So the standard person who who actually looks into this and tries to figure out what they think about it.

Who's gonna come out with a care like a cessationist kind of position?

What happened was like their wife had some stupid idea about?

Like something that God's telling her Her directly that you should do as a pastor and then what's

happening on the on a practical level is then you know they're like basically going and like.

You're basically saying hey, you know, God didn't tell her that and we're not gonna do what she's telling us to do.

I'm sorry.

And then they get offended for the sake of their wife and then they go and they read Grudem to figure out like why you're wrong.

You know.

So.

That's what's happening, you know.

It's as far as that goes.

That's that's the vast majority of people who are yeah who are even thinking about these things that I don't know.

I don't know anyone personally who has ever come to some sort of continuationist position, you

know straight up.

You know what?

I mean do a careful reading of Scripture or anything else.

I don't know I don't know very many people at all.

They're either raised in the charismatic church and then You know, they're trying to figure out how to

Sort it out.

I mean the vast majority of people I know who started out as charismatics and who start reading their Bible they go the other way, you know

what I mean?

There's there's no one who's like like.

Like they just were raised in a charismatic environment.

The more they start reading the Bible and see that it's sufficient the more they're moving the other way.

But I don't know hardly.

I don't know anyone who is.

You.

Know just studied the scriptures himself and naturally came up with it on their own as far as that goes.

One of the primary pushback you know arguments that people

are going to give when you have this type of cessationist view like we have

when it comes to you know, does does God still speak to us is.

That.

Essentially, you know, we're we're putting God in a box.

We're limiting what God can do.

Or maybe even you know.

We're essentially saying the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything at all.

Then if if God's not speaking to us today, then the Holy Spirit basically has no purpose at that

point.

So what.

What's your response to that kind of Idea that kind of pushback that that they would

bring to the table.

Yeah that you're the basic pushback being just that you're putting God in a box or that

you're The Holy Spirit glow if if God's not still

speaking then the Holy Spirit's functionally muted he's not doing anything.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think in general most people really have No understanding of what the Holy Spirit does other

than just the mysticism.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, and it's really sad.

It's really sad.

That's it.

I mean, it's just it's like it's either you know, it's it's either mysticism or it's

Like that's that's all I got.

You know what I mean?

So Yes, so I think part of you know As I've kind of offended people on this subject

and this is I would say of all the subjects I've ever offended people on one of the main subjects I've offended people

on is on the charismatic question because I mean you really you are when you push back Against this at all.

You really are basically Taking away their Christianity

because this is how they do it, you know, this is it this is what they got so.

But typically it's just you know They keep most people can't conceive that the Holy Spirit has anything to do

other than this which is kind of Sad really when it comes down to it because the Holy Spirit has all a

lot of roles I mean, so the Holy Spirit's job God guess is a Jesus since the Holy Spirit ends the world

that to convict the world of sin and righteousness of judgment.

So every time that you read the Bible and you see areas in which you fall short of what God says That's the Holy Spirit

and you feel bad about it.

That's the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin, right?

The Holy Spirit brings to remembrance the words of Scripture.

So Jesus says You know first John talks about the anointing you

received You know will guide you into all truth and and Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance my

words take my what's mine declared to you.

So, I mean the Holy Spirit has this role of bringing to remembrance Scripture.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in situations where The perfect Bible verse comes to mind and it's the

perfect Bible verse actually taken in context.

That's important.

It's important.

All right, but it's true.

I mean like The holy, you know, God will bring their members to scriptures you put those scriptures in your

brain.

God will bring their members of scriptures that the Holy Spirit said divine comforter, right?

And and in terms of a We receive comfort from God and part of the way like if you think about

the way the Holy Spirit works you connect it with the scripture at every single point and the scriptures Are the source of comfort to us

and the Holy Spirit will bring the scriptures to remembrance to us.

And so Holy Spirit convicts us of sin brings her remembers God's Word.

Come he's a comforter to us.

He will help us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

So, you know when you're trying to daily fight the battle of I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've

Wanted to sin and a Bible verse will come to my mind.

Mm -hmm.

And so I mean for the kind of person who says like well, you're saying the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything.

It's like well, I don't know what you're doing in your life.

Like what do you what are you trying to accomplish?

Right, and I mean, I think that that's the thing, you know with the vast majority of charismatics and biblical Christian biblical

Christians are trying to fight sin and So they see all the ways in which the Holy Spirit is helping them to fight sin

and their life put the death deeds to the flesh, you know.

And helping them do war in that kind of way, but then I think for the standard Christian charismatic Christian.

It's all just about victory and overcoming and you know Special director Ryan words from God to tell them to do

exactly what they want to do already.

And so you're just engaging in a different thing, you know.

One person's trying to be sanctified.

The other person's trying to get victory, you know in the prosperity sense.

And and so then it's like you take away that still small voice from them.

It's like they don't have anything else.

It's good.

Yeah, you don't ever read the Bible and you know, you're not trying to fight sin.

So yeah, you don't have anything else.

So there's that right?

So there's that part of it but then like with the whole like you're putting God in the box kind of

Objection silly sort of objection was like I think the simplest response to that kind of thing is just to

Say hey, you know, I'm not I'm not putting God in a box.

He's put himself in one, you know.

You know, I mean You know that doesn't get you very far because that sounds blasphemous or something like that.

But it's just like I didn't put him in the box.

He he decided what box he likes, you know, but I mean, here's the thing.

I mean, it's just like you think about you think about that kind of objection.

There's plenty of things that God Can't do right.

Mm -hmm.

There's plenty of things like you can't lie, right?

He can't swear by a name that's greater than his own, right?

There's things like there's things that are not within his character to do so God can.

God's all -powerful.

He can do whatever he wills to do and he'll do anything that's in accordance with his character.

And so like the idea that like hey, you're putting him in a box.

It's just like well God can't lie and God's not the author of confusion and God's not gonna.

You know got like you look at the charismatic movie.

All you see is confusion there at every single point.

And so the issue is is what has he determined to do and he can do anything that he's determined to do

obviously.

But what has he determined to do and has he determined to instead of having his people read

their scriptures?

In order to find his will because he's given them a sufficient word in the scriptures in order to you know

be a.

You know a light into their feet and a lamp to their path has he given them that has he determined to Speak to his people through a

book which is sufficient.

Or has he determined basically just to short -circuit that process and tell each individual Christian what he wants them to know whenever he

wants.

To know that and I mean certainly he can do that.

But then it's neither here nor there about whether or not you're putting it in a box.

It's like what like the the issue is what has he revealed that we should expect for him to do so

make sense.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, and you know what if he's revealed that each individual Christian is going to receive direct divine revelation from

God.

Whenever they need it, then that's what he's revealed, you know.

And and I would be the first to say if that's what we should he said he's going to do.

We should look for him to do that.

But if that's not what he said, he's gonna do then, you know, it's Really, you know that

well, you're you know, you're limiting God kind of argument.

It's really kind of stupid.

It's just like no.

What does he said?

He's gonna do he's gonna be limited by what he says, right?

So, you know, he might limit himself in terms of What he's

based on what he said, right?

So.

And you can you can make that kind of thing in Make that kind of case in any

ridiculous way you want.

I mean You know, it's just like hey, you know, can God make me 20 feet tall,

right?

Well, I guess He could if he wanted to right but as I read through the Bible There's nothing in the Bible

that says he should do that.

So I probably shouldn't expect him to do that and that isn't limiting him and that's just to say, you know We have no experience with him.

There's no promise that he's gonna do that.

So you might not want to you know, trust him to do something that you know might be kind of absurd, you know.

Can he make me a hundred foot tall sure, you know, but is he gonna do it probably not.

Yeah, no, but I mean like to put it in another way I mean is he you know, could God

make you know.

Could God, you know, basically is he promising, you know to give any Christian who asked a million dollars?

It's like well, no, I mean he didn't promise that could he do it?

Sure, you know.

But if you're saying well, he's not promised to do that and we shouldn't expect him to do that.

Are you limiting him?

Well, I'm not limiting him.

I'm just saying what is he revealed that we should expect for him to do and what you know?

What what hasn't he revealed?

You know what I mean?

Mm -hmm.

So it's kind of a silly proposition.

Yeah, I I remember.

You probably you probably remember this too, but I remember.

Well, let me say this first I'm totally convinced that this type of charismatic movement

only Builds, you know at best extremely weak

baby Christians and at worst deceives people into

thinking they're Christians when they're really not and What I mean is I remember one time I got a call

from a guy who was asking me Essentially, you know, what do I need to do to

become a worship leader?

I'm a worship leader right now and and so he was thinking I would be able to give him some helpful

insight into how to become one himself and unfortunately for him the

conversation Didn't really give him anything that he wanted.

And the reason was because we were just talking and I was just kind of getting to know him a little bit and asking him.

You know, how hey, how did you become a Christian?

I was just curious.

I wanted to know his testimony and He told me that the way he became

a Christian, you know, I was expecting some kind of like hey, you know my dad He told me about the gospel.

He kept telling me over and over again or my friend or my pastor whoever they I just kept hearing the gospel

from someone and eventually I realized that I needed Jesus to Be my Savior, I needed to

submit to him and put my faith in him.

But instead what he said was that one One day, I think he was in a

hotel room and he overdosed on Some you know drug.

I don't remember.

I don't remember what it was.

But it was a pretty, you know serious one if he was overdosing on it.

And this wasn't his first overdose by the way this he told me this was like his third.

That year I think and and he He told me that when he

went to the hospital, he was there for a while and he remembered one night

He said that he woke up and.

And.

Jesus appeared to him and You know, he said that Jesus Told him some

stuff.

I don't know what color was he?

No, I didn't ask him what I should Like.

Hey, did you think to pull out your phone and take a picture?

Kind of like to know if the guy looks like yeah, I'm curious, but he appeared to me the other day and you know.

But anyways, you know he he said that Jesus spoke to him.

I don't remember exactly what This guy said that that Jesus spoke

but you know, I mean the story was essentially hey Jesus visited me while I was in the hospital.

I was near death and basically at that moment, I realized that Jesus

was real and I needed to be a Christian.

And My first you know.

Maybe maybe I've been you know I've been tainted.

By.

What you've taught me Tim, but my first thought was not you know to just kind of oh Okay, you know

and think oh that's kind of weird, but I'm not gonna say anything my first thought was and instead to kind of

push back on what he said and and I just asked him I was like so, how do you know that was Jesus

and he he was kind of you know caught off guard by my question

and and You know, he was like, well, I don't know.

I'm just sure it was Jesus, you know, and and it became pretty obvious Soon

fairly quickly that he really didn't actually know that it was Jesus.

He had just wanted it to be Jesus and he had convinced himself.

It was Jesus.

So but then the moment someone challenged that idea He didn't have anything to really

prove it with and what ended up happening in that conversation is I mean within 20 minutes of

just asking questions and and reading him some some very specific verses, you know,

particularly and and Hebrews chapter 1 right at the beginning of the book.

You know.

He immediately was like well if that wasn't Jesus.

Then I don't even know if I'm a Christian.

Right.

I mean, I mean his whole faith quote -unquote was just destroyed by my

simple just Asking how do you know it was Jesus, you know, and

and I remember I felt really bad and I called you afterwards I was like, hey, did I screw up big time?

And you're like, no, no, you didn't, you know I think you had basically said hey, you know, what

would you do if someone asked you?

Are you sure you're a Christian?

You know, I'd be like well I mean, I just looked back in my life and and what the Bible says and

it seems I'm pretty I'm pretty certain you know that God's God saved

me right, but then this this guy's reaction was immediately to just

crumple basically and.

The reason why well the reason why is because the Bible those who

Follow God because of an experience they can be talked out of following him because of an experience.

Mm -hmm.

Because I mean that's what it's based on it's based on experience for them instead of revelation if that makes sense.

Yeah, but anyways keep on going.

No, no.

I mean that was the end of the story essentially and the only reason I I bring it up is just because You

know this it was really sad honestly, maybe some people might hear me tell a story like

that and and they think that my I Get some

kind of weird sick Satisfaction out of you know.

To put it lightly ruining this guy's day, right?

But the reality is honestly I was really sad now I wasn't necessarily sad.

You know.

Like I regretted saying what I said.

I didn't I don't regret saying what I said to him asking the questions I did what was really sad

is Knowing that this guy for years at this point, I think three or four years was totally convinced.

He was a Christian but then the reality was that he wasn't and

And who knows what visited him whether he made it up in his head or or it was something, you know

Demonic or whatever it was, but whatever it was it was deceptive.

Right, and and he had been deceived for years and and if he had died at any point

You know before I had that conversation with him he would have gone to hell but he wouldn't have

known that he was going to hell and until it was too late and You know, he couldn't

change anything at that point and and that's what's really sad about this type of like Hey God,

God can speak to us today.

It seemed it seems like hey, we're we're just laughing about it.

We're joking about it.

Yeah, ha ha Beth Moore.

No, God didn't tell you to go brush that guy's hair you know, whatever this is a serious deal

because You know It's sending people to hell is deceiving people and and

people are building their entire faith on This type of idea that God is still speaking to us

today.

So I just bring that all up because I think it is really sad and it's very deceptive.

Yeah, I mean second Peter I did a sermon on second Peter once talk the title of it was the scriptures more

reliable than your experience essentially, but Peter talks about Essentially in

second Peter that we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ,

but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

So like we didn't follow myths, right?

He says.

For when we received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was born to him by the majestic glory.

This is my beloved son with whom I'm well, please.

He's just interesting.

Hey, we're eyewitnesses of God.

We saw him transfigured in his glory on earth, right?

He says when we received that is He says we ourself heard the very voice born from heaven

for we were with him on the holy mountain.

They heard God speak directly to them, right?

If anyone wants to know about an experience that anyone had Peter had best, you know experience of director by

revelation that anyone could have right?

But then he says in verse 19 and we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed.

To which you would do well to pay attention as a lamp shining in dark place.

Until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your heart.

He essentially says in the scriptures.

We have something more fully confirmed than even the best experience you've ever come up with right?

Mm -hmm, and he says you would do well to pay attention to it, right?

So here's the thing I mean like scripture is more reliable and people's experience and if someone's entire experience is based

on mysticism.

It'll fall in a couple, you know, and and that's the thing.

That's why we're talking about two different religions.

Is what we're talking about in this kind of podcast like just your typical Standard, you know big -box

evangelicalism kind of charismatic light kind of experience is is an experience of

Christianity.

That has no substance to it.

It's shallow.

It will fall and it doesn't help people.

That's the problem.

You know, they you know, they go running around all day long talking about all the things that God is telling them.

But the problem is when things get actually hard in their life.

They have no root in them and they fall away from the faith over and over and over again.

They're just like the guy you described because it's all based on this these experiences, which are not self -interpreted.

You know what I'm saying?

Mm -hmm.

They're not self -interpretive.

And they're not gonna ground people.

They're not gonna make them stable in their faith.

They're basically just wandering around trying to hear from God, you know.

Everything that they want to know and the problem is eventually they're gonna make a few calls that were wrong, right?

Yeah, the things that they thought that God was telling them I can't tell you how many times I've had people come and just like hey, you

know I thought God wanted me to take the job and you know, then I lost my job.

It's just like I don't know what to do anymore.

It's just like in my cursed and how do I even know God's speaking to me anymore?

And then they don't even want to be a Christian and that's what we're talking about.

It's because they're grounding their faith in some kind of mystical experience and they also eventually.

Mm -hmm.

That makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know and that's why it's important, you know.

Because you're talking about two different legends at that point.

And just to go back to that verse that I brought up earlier in my story to

you know, I said that I read Hebrews 1 to this guy and and it's right here right in the beginning of

The right in the beginning of the book verse 1 it says long ago God spoke to our ancestors by

the prophets at different times and in different ways.

So in that first verse he's talking about the Old Testament, you know, God spoke to the Israelites through prophets.

So God was directly speaking to people.

But then in verse 2 it says in these last days.

He has spoken to us by his Son.

God has appointed him heir of all things and made the universe through him.

The Sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of his nature.

Sustaining all things by his powerful word and and so it seems pretty clear at that point, you know

He's he's called the author of Hebrews is calling Jesus the word right?

Just like John.

John does at the beginning of that gospel and it seems to be pretty clear that

The word is now The way that God is speaking to us.

Now that Christ has come died and ascended back into heaven.

Is that an accurate?

Description of that verse do you think?

Yeah, I mean if many people who are you know convinced of a cessationist kind of

position that basically God has finishes speaking they're gonna go to Hebrews 1 and they're gonna be talking about

Jesus being the pinnacle and the climax of all of God's revelatory acts and so

Jesus himself is the word made flesh who dwells among us essentially.

If that makes sense.

And so this divine word is the word who's going to exegete to declare the Father to make him known to

us.

Jesus is the pinnacle of that and so this is one of those passages say that basically just says that God God had

Spoken to his people in former ways and in the whole argument of book of Hebrews is a crisis supreme.

Anyway, and so Jesus becomes the you know supreme form of revelation and that's just one piece

in the pot that you put together to build the position but I think that's a significant

place to go that is God had former ways of speaking and yeah in these last days.

He's spoken to the Sun.

There's a contrast there, right?

So He but but in these last days he's spoken to the Sun.

Hope he's pointed to the air of all things.

So there's um.

There seems to be some significant difference in the way that he's spoken through Jesus then.

With the others and that gets you know one foot in the right door, yeah, I think yeah answer what's going on here.

Yeah, it seems like there's a shift.

But then that does bring me to basically our our final Question that I

want.

I want to just see what you have to say now.

Obviously, we've been talking about Script you know scripture is the final word now

God.

God's not speaking directly to us anymore because he doesn't have to.

But that does I.

I do have a question, you know when it when it comes to How God

spoke to the Apostles after Christ had come died.

Been raised from the dead and then ascended into heaven.

There's still a few visions that do happen.

After after.

You know Christ died and ascended.

You know the primary examples of this would be.

You know Peter's vision in Acts Stephen the the first

martyr.

He says he sees he sees God.

And then probably the most prominent example would be John

and his book Revelation, you know, he has several different Visions of God

throughout that book that make up the book and and he's basically giving a

apocalyptic prophecy.

That whole book.

Well, maybe not the whole book, but you know a large majority of that book.

And so it's the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave.

Yep.

Yeah, I think it's a revelation.

Yeah, and so.

So my question is, you know, if if God has stopped speaking to us directly

Once Christ came then why are we still seeing?

You know examples of Visions happening isn't that?

Shouldn't that at least give us pause to say, you know, hey, maybe maybe he is still

speaking directly today.

So, you know because it could be if if we don't understand this correctly, we could accidentally,

you know, basically neuter.

A lot of the old, you know, I mean not the Old Testament the New Testament.

Yeah, well, I mean The warning of Deuteronomy 18 applies that essentially if God has more words to

speak and you're saying he doesn't then you're God.

God says he will require it of you.

So it's just as bad to You know erase words that God has as it is to add words, right?

We shouldn't add or take away but yeah, you could add there's You know the whole thing that

happens in Acts 2 with Pentecost and the you know the Which Peter says it's a fulfillment of your son's and daughter's

prophecy prophesied y 'all to kind of thing.

Do you have that happening post Pentecost?

You have like the Paul says his very words are the words of Scripture.

So all the New Testament letters are essentially post revelator.

Post ascension, you know words from the Lord essentially.

So that's what the entire New Testament is and right.

How do you deal with just the reality that if Jesus is the final word then how.

How come there seems to be other direct words after that?

And how do we have any kind of rationale as to when they stop?

Is that fair?

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, so I think it's This it's not really a difficult question to answer.

To answer as far as that goes and an easy plate.

There's a couple easy places to go and I'll just talk about them pretty quickly.

So Luke 1 1 through 3 Luke says is meant In

as much as many has undertaken to compile a narrative of things have been accomplished among us.

Just as those who were from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us.

It seemed to me also having follow all things closely for some time past to write an orderly account to you most excellent

Theophilus that you may have certainty concerning the things you you were taught.

So one of the things that happens is, you know, the Gospels are writing there the gospel writers are eyewitnesses.

To the life and ministry of Jesus, right?

So when you think about the Gospels proper.

You're having a record.

Luke tells us that he's compiling this record of all the things that Jesus did and taught.

Essentially while he is alive.

Does that make sense?

Mm -hmm.

So when you're dealing with the Gospels, that's what you're looking at.

Now you go to like the beginning of Acts Luke.

He says in the first book.

Oh Theophilus.

That's the book of Luke, right?

The gospel Luke I dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day he was taken up.

But then he says after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the Apostles whom he had chosen.

Okay, so if you think about it this way Before Jesus goes if you remember what he says to his disciples in the

upper room.

He says I still have many more things to teach you, right?

Says I have many more things to teach you, but you can't bear them right now.

But after I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit and he's gonna guide you into all truth essentially, right?

So one of the things that you have is if you think about what the New Testament is the first four books of the Gospels.

So they're their eyewitness records of all Jesus did and taught while he was alive.

But then after he had given commands to his apostles to his apostles by the Holy Spirit whom he was going to

send, right?

So what happens is, you know post Jesus's Ascension.

You have the Apostles who are essentially waiting around and you know a room scared to death and everything else and they're

waiting for the Holy Spirit to come when the Holy Spirit comes the Holy Spirit gives All those additional commands that

Jesus had to give to the Apostles.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, and so the entire rest of the New Testament is a record of Jesus's essentially

additional Commands through the Apostles.

So the revelation here's the point the revolution of Christ came in two phases.

It came during his earthly ministry and then it came in his post apostolic

Ministry by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit if that makes sense.

So the whole New Testament basically is just this final revelation of God that has come to us in two

phases.

And so you say well what rationale is it for that final, you know revelation to be done?

Does that make sense?

Is that kind of the next question that comes to mind?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, how do we know that?

He's not still doing it.

Well, then essentially what you do at that point is you're just building a theology of what an apostle actually is

if that makes sense.

So an apostle is is a is a divine Is an individual who's divinely chosen by God who was

actually an eyewitness of God's Resurrection so, you know Paul defines his own

test as an apostle at various places within the New Testament.

But he says, you know, am I not an apostle?

Have I not seen the risen Lord and didn't I do the signs of an apostle among you with much patience?

And so basically to be an apostle basically you're following the old the pattern of the Old Testament Prophets

in general.

So when God raises up like a prophet like Moses He gives him certain signs to perform in order to establish him as a prophet.

And so with Moses, you know, he had the leper's hand.

He had the serpent staff.

He turned the water into blood, you know when he makes his New Testament apostles.

It says he gave them signs and wonders to perform, right?

He gave him power over all unclean spirit and power to heal every manner of disease.

And so they went and they cast out demons and then the hill.

They were given power over diseases and when you think about what happened with Paul He accepts miracles were being done in that day

that they could you know touch Hanker chef from Paul and be healed as far as that goes and so Paul

says, you know I I performed the signs of of an apostle among you with great patience.

And so Paul was established as an apostle of the Lord because he was eyewitness testimony performed the

signs of an apostle.

He was established to be speaking directly from God by the end of his ministry.

He can't even heal Timothy anymore.

He says, you know drink some wine for your stomach as far as that goes.

And so essentially if you're gonna have new additional prophets.

They're gonna have to seem to risen Lord and have been given the signs of an apostle and everything else if

that makes sense.

But then, you know the the apart but you know, you're you're basically

Limited as far as the scope of that kind of thing because You know, you have a New

Testament Jesus has twelve apostles and then They picked one more

by drawing lots and then Lord chose Paul directly but you know, so

essentially part of your argument for say cessationists in general cessationism is Dealing with what

does it mean to be a New Testament Apostle as far as that goes?

So, mm -hmm.

But essentially what you have happened is the revelation of Christ came in two phases During his earthly ministry and his post -resurrection

ministry to the apostles whom he had chosen as Luke's talked about in verse in Acts.

So that's kind of a convoluted like long answer to the question about I had to make it shorter.

No, I I think that's good.

I just wanted to ask that because I Think it is kind of a natural

question at least it's one that I kind of Came to when I was thinking about this topic is how

exactly?

How exactly does the you know, how exactly does divine inspiration work?

How exactly do the visions work and.

And yet still we can simultaneously say hey got God's done speaking directly to us

Because he doesn't have to anymore.

So so how exactly does that work together?

And I wanted to I wanted to you know Give you a chance to kind of clear that up for our

listeners who might have wondered the same thing.

But I think that's a good place For us to end on this topic.

This has been another episode of Bible bashed.

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