Should Christians Show Pronoun Hospitality?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

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Pete Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not

allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, should

Christians show pronoun hospitality?

Now this is a topic that I think has been really, it's been talked about for a very long time.

I remember, Tim, when I first started at seminary, one

of the big talking points with my peers in class was this idea

of should we use people's preferred pronouns, even if we disagree

with their understanding of sexuality and, you know, gender?

And it's funny, because I remember my professor was actually arguing

that we should.

We should show pronoun hospitality.

Jared.

What was he teaching?

Pete.

It was a, man, what was it?

It was my first semester, I think it was some sort of

family counseling class maybe.

Jared.

Oh.

Pete I don't remember the official name of it, but it was something like that.

And it was actually, I don't know how old she was, but I think a younger

woman who was teaching the class, probably maybe not even 30 yet.

I never asked her, but she looked really young.

And she was arguing that we should actually show pronoun hospitality, but then a lot of my

fellow peers were saying, no, no, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, if someone says, hey, I'm a

duck, I'm not going to start calling them a duck.

I remember that line very clearly from those conversations.

But one really interesting thing is actually J .D. Greer, of all

people, has weighed in again on this topic,

right?

And I guess I don't listen to, he has a podcast that I don't

listen to, for good reason.

Pete.

Right.

And I guess he had talked about this and stirred up some controversy

by, at the very least, implying that we should use people's preferred pronouns.

But to his credit, he came out with a second episode trying to clarify some points that he

made in the first one.

And we actually have this article that I just wanted to show a brief

snippet of, and this article is from Protestia.

But right here, I guess we can leave a link for this article in the description on

the video on YouTube.

But I thought this paragraph was pretty interesting,

really, because when I read this right here, I want to clarify some

things that I said.

I was expecting, Tim, I told you this already, but I was expecting a very

vague non -answer, something that doesn't really actually clearly

define his stance on the issue, but would probably

be enough for a lot of people.

But to my surprise, I'll read this last paragraph, and it was at least pretty

encouraging.

It says, so you know, if somebody has transitioned, if Tommy now wants to

go by Tara and wants to be called she, her instead of he, him, should you consent

to that and go along with it?

Let me actually use a phrase I first heard when Andrew Walker, because I really liked

this framing.

The answer to that question begins and ends with no.

And the reason I say that is because I think as believers, we have to be crystal clear on the truth.

So the answer begins and ends with no, that we should not use someone's preferred pronouns when we know

that Tommy is a male, because that's how God created him.

So, when I read that, I was pleasantly surprised, because like I said, I was expecting a non -answer

from him in general.

Now, there's some other things in this article that are a little, I think, concerning still

from him, but at least with that section, I was like, oh, okay,

good.

At least you didn't give.

Some kind of, well, you know.

I think it's still, I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I think it's still pretty weasley.

You think it's still weasley, okay.

No, I mean, I'm glad that at the very least, he's clear about

the answer begins and ends with no.

I mean, he's mostly clear, but I'm glad that at the very least,

the obvious is being pointed out that we shouldn't deny reality.

But then, as is the case with many of these guys, when they

make statements along these lines, they don't come across

clear in terms of the nature of the error that's being made.

So, he is an individual that is arguing for pronoun hospitality, and now he's the

response as a clarification on what he originally said, which is then

excused, right?

So, it's excused by the fact that, well, the cultural conversation has evolved and changed over time

and clarified, and it's like, well, no, it hasn't changed at all, okay?

The same thing has happened since then.

So, you know, this is typically when

biblical counselors encourage people to ask forgiveness about things, we typically

encourage them to use the word, to say, I've sinned, please forgive me, I was

wrong, and to be very specific about the nature of their sin, to not excuse it with if, ands, buts, or maybes,

to not try to explain their error away.

I sinned, but then things have changed, and let me clarify what I've done.

And so, I think, like, the nature of the, yeah, the nature of the

clarification itself, like, clarification isn't really a strong enough language to use in a

situation like this.

You actively led people into error, you encouraged them to sin, and then not only that, you

were scandalized by the fact that people were rebuking you for it, and, you know, those individuals who were

rebuking you were the unloving ones, the intolerant ones, the ones who are, you know,

basically, in your mind, like, what he did was throw them under the bus, and then now,

now he's, you know, come around to the good side.

And I'm glad that he's come around mostly to, you know, a positive position, but let's not pretend like nothing

wrong happened there, and that you're simply just clarifying your position, you know, for one.

No, this isn't a clarification, this is a total 180 different position that you're adopting now.

Pete.

So, did he, my understanding, because I don't really keep up with him at all, my understanding was that

he put out an episode before this that, I guess, in his mind wasn't clear, but

it sounds like you're saying, no, he was actively encouraging people to use pronouns.

Jared.

Oh, yeah, he was definitely encouraging people to use pronouns, hospitality, and that's been something that's been going on for

quite some time now.

So, like, this isn't some kind of clarification that this is just a change, this is a

change of position here.

You know, and this isn't something that's, you know, crystallized in his mind, this is just, you know,

there's two options here, you either show pronoun hospitality or don't, okay?

You're encouraging people to show, follow Preston Sprinkle's example of showing pronoun hospitality, and now you're not, you know, now you're saying

it's wrong, mostly wrong.

So, you know, I'm glad that he now realizes it's mostly wrong, but you do have to deal with,

you know, you have to deal with the different situation.

Pete Right, yeah, and like I said, I was trying to clarify, I do think there are still some concerning

things.

I mean, later, you can go read the article later, but later on, he basically does say, you know,

still call someone by their preferred pronouns in a hypothetical situation that he gives,

and so, he hasn't really fully committed to the position, but….

Jared Yeah, the situation he had in mind was,.

You know, if you're in counseling, if you're in some kind of counseling situation, and I guess, like, you know, the dad of

someone is there, and the dad is using the pronouns of, you know, his,

you know, gender -confused person, right, if you want to put it that way, and then in order to

advance the conversation, you may use, like, those pronouns just to move

the conversation along, but then, you know, what needs to come before or after that is very clear.

I don't believe that these pronouns are actually what you're saying they are,

but let me use them for a minute just to move the conversation along, and I think, well, that's the whole point of pronoun

hospitality in general that you're arguing for is that somehow it's loving and gracious

in certain situations to use the wrong pronouns in order to get you into a

door to, you know, have a conversation, to be loving, you know, but now he's just

basically narrowed the acceptable range of doing that and then added a qualifier to say that

it can only be a temporary strategy that needs to be followed up with a repudiation of it of some sort.

It's like, well, yeah, it's, let's just, you know, not use them at all.

Pete.

Right.

Yeah, so, you know, when it comes to the question, should you show pronoun hospitality,

your answer is no, right?

Jared.

Yeah, no, under any circumstance, no, like, absolutely not, never, oh,

you know, you'll have to kill me before I do that.

No, that's it.

That's the right answer.

Pete.

How are you going to do it if you're dead?

Jared.

Yeah, well, you'd have to, like, kill me and then, like, possess my corpse and make it, you know?

Pete With the AI chip that can.

Jared.

Yeah, yeah, that's the only way that that's going to happen.

Yep.

Pete.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

So, why not show pronoun hospitality?

What's his name?

Andrew Sprinkle, right?

Jared Preston Sprinkle.

Pete Preston Sprinkle.

Preston Sprinkle.

Who is that, by the way?

I don't know who that is.

Jared.

He's just, you know,.

Yeah, he's a guy, I think he used, he graduated from Master's Seminary, but then he's basically just

become kind of a woke guy out there who is arguing for a lot of crazy stuff,

particularly as it relates to, you know, sin of sodomy and

things along those lines.

So, he's just an unreliable person that you, I mean, his name is Preston Sprinkle.

Come on.

Just, that tells you all you need to know, you know?

Pete Okay.

A sound argument, if I ever heard.

Jared Yeah, that's right.

Pete Okay.

All right.

So, no, we shouldn't show pronoun hospitality.

Why not?

Why not?

Jared.

I mean, it's just, it's a dumb expression.

I mean, if nothing else, it's just a dumb expression.

Pete I mean, it does feel cringey to say pronoun hospitality.

Jared.

I mean, if you can't, if you don't cringe when you hear the expression, like, you should, you know?

So, I mean,.

But no, I mean, Pete.

Yeah, spell it out for those who maybe aren't cringing, but think, okay, well, maybe I should be cringing, but I don't

know why I'm not cringing.

Jared.

Well, I don't know how to explain that part, but I'll, like, if you don't know to be cringing and you're not

cringing and you don't understand why you should be, then I just, I don't know what to say to you.

Like, as far as that goes, like, you just, something's messed up there and you should pray about that.

But, but no, I mean, it really is about bearing false witness.

It is about lying.

It is about affirming something that isn't true.

So, this is a demand that's being made.

And this is just generally the left's tactic as it relates to, you know, a lot of these issues and a lot of the

left's basic stance is to try to seize control over the dictionary and to compel

speech in certain ways and to force individuals essentially to deny reality at a wide variety of

instances.

And this is just, you know, this is denying reality.

Pete.

Yeah, and I mean, even to the point of basically just hijacking biblical sayings, right?

Not that pronoun hospitality is a biblical idea, but then like, hospitality

is a biblical idea.

And so, they're hijacking it to mean something else.

It's the same as, you know, like we did, we just recently did that episode on, you know, should you

love your neighbor by eating bugs, right?

Like, they're hijacking that, those types of things and trying to make them

mean what God never meant them to mean, right?

Jared.

Right.

So, you're trying to, you know, basically take a biblical idea of showing hospitality to someone and then you're, you know,

perverting that idea and co -opting that idea and putting it in service of an evil agenda.

Jared.

So, you know, we don't, in order to show hospitality to individuals, you don't lie.

You never have to sin in order, like that's, like in order to show hospitality to someone, that's,

like we're just talking about a very different concept here, you know, so.

Pete.

Basically, what they're asking you to do is show hospitality to their sin.

Jared.

That's right, yep, yep, yep.

So.

Pete.

Which obviously, like Jesus never did.

I mean, you know, you can go and read through the Gospels and see

how he interacts with sinners.

Now, he's, you know, he's definitely spending his time with sinners.

There's no arguing there.

No one's pushing back on that idea.

Jared.

Well, not the way people think, you know.

Pete.

Yeah, not in like a, hey, we're all buddy -buddy kind of.

Jared.

Hey, let's all get together and watch Game of Thrones together, you know, for three years before I ever get to share in the Gospel with you.

Pete.

Right, right.

Jared.

Because I want to be your, you know, because I, you know, let me go hang out with you, you know, while you're

engaging in prostitution, you know, and in a non -judgmental way.

Pete.

Let me work up the courage.

I'll work up.

The courage to share the Gospel with you in six years.

And then you'll still get mad at me anyways.

Jared.

Right, and then I'll waste it all my time, yeah.

No, I mean, certainly Jesus was a friend of sinners, but then what that, that doesn't mean what people think it

meant, for one, you know.

And for two, I mean, he did, he certainly, you know, loved sinners, but then Jesus, you know, if you look at his

evangelistic strategy, it was pretty direct and it was pretty quick, you know.

So the woman, you know, you have the woman at the well and you see his encounter with her, and I mean,

immediately he brings up, like, the nature of her sin, that she's had seven husbands and the one she's living with

now isn't, you know, her husband.

And so, like, his strategy certainly isn't the one that.

Most people think.

Pete I don't know if I've ever been that bold.

So I still have a ways to go.

Jared Yeah, I think, you know, in biblical counseling, you know, there's opportunities at the very least to go

there, you know, fairly quickly, but you know, I think most of the time Jesus goes

there pretty quickly.

Pete.

So, is it, okay, so we shouldn't be showing pronoun hospitality.

Is it a sin to use someone else's preferred pronouns?

So, not to have, you know, preferred pronouns for yourself, to use someone else's pronouns?

Jared.

Yeah, I mean, that would be what the concept of showing pronoun hospitality is.

You're essentially using the pronouns that they prefer as a means of hospitality that's meant

to say, hey, I love you.

I care about you.

I'm on your side.

And, you know, I may disagree, but I'm going to show you the respect to call you, you know, the way you identify

as far as that goes.

And so, no, I can't think of any conceivable situation where anyone should ever

do that.

I mean, that's just, I mean, that part of the problem is that we've done that at every single level in our society.

We think in order to love people, we have to essentially lie to them.

And that's what we do.

I mean, that's what we were told to do with the COVID stuff.

Like, we're told to lie to people in order to love them.

Like, lying to you means I need to put a, you know, cloth mask over my face that I know doesn't work.

You know, selectively as I walk into buildings, you know, stand certain arbitrary distances apart, you

know, put like plastic barriers up between me that only go up to our face and there's an

air hole underneath, you know, or even air holes to the side, you know, like, and so,

like, we're basically living in a society that demands that you lie to people,

you know, in a fairly comprehensive way.

I mean, we've been asked to lie to people in a fairly comprehensive way as it relates to the discussion.

So you have to deny everything that your eyes are seeing as it relates to the race discussion and basically just pretend as

if like you're living in some, like, you know, pervasively racist society

and show special, you know, privileges to members of certain

skin colors who are engaging in destructive patterns and habits.

And you have to pretend like all that as a result of something else other than their own personal choices.

You know, we're told comprehensively to lie to women, like as men, you have to, like, if you want

to love your wife, you want to have a good relationship with her, you basically lie to her in a pretty systematic way and tell her the

things that she wants to hear in order to make her feel better and not, you know, challenge her in any way with

reality.

And so the same thing is true with this pronoun hospitality stuff.

It's just, you know, another example of, you know, a secular

understanding that's better to a lot of people because, you know, what it's about is it's about their feelings are king,

you know, their feelings are sovereign and whatever they feel, you have to validate that and you have to affirm that.

And, you know, you can read comments on the internet that are basically saying, what does it cost you just to

say someone's, you know, preferred pronouns as far as that goes.

So it cost me my integrity, right?

It makes me a liar.

Like Satan is the father of liars.

Liars go to hell.

You know, Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, you know.

So yes, we're to be individuals who love the truth, defend the truth, speak the

truth.

We're to put away all falsehood and speak the truth with our neighbor, as the Bible says.

So like what it means really to love someone is to speak the truth to them.

And that doesn't mean you have to say everything that is true that you can think of in your mind,

but it certainly doesn't mean lying to individuals in order to make them feel good.

And so, you know, as it relates to this kind of discussion, one of the worst things that we can possibly do is lie to these individuals and tell them,

you know, call them by their preferred pronouns.

They're engaging in a delusion.

They're trying to deceive themselves.

They think that if they just chop off all these parts and, you know, somehow they can be a member of the

opposite gender.

And I mean, it's just, it's a destructive lie to them, right?

I mean, it's just like, you can just, right now, you know, there's been a lot of these, you

know, post transition, gender transition stories that are coming out that are being shared now that have been

suppressed for so long.

And I mean, it really is a horrendous thing that people are engaging in to basically castrate themselves or remove,

like, you know, remove their, their healthy breast in order to pretend like they're a

member of the opposite sex.

And, you know, the end result of that is that they, they, you have individuals who basically have

scarred and mutilated themselves, destroyed any ability they have to have children.

And, you know, like the worst thing you can do is just come along and just try to enable them

in this delusion.

I mean, this is a, this is the kind of thing that they, you know, there's going to be a lot of suicides that come from

that.

It's not going to come from, you know, people on our side who are mean.

It's going to come because that's the natural thing that a person, like, wants

to do when they realize that they've totally destroyed, like, the image of God and, you know, removed any

chance they have of having a normal life because they were, you know, engaged in some kind of

pervasive society -wide delusion.

So it's not loving to them to do it.

And it's not loving to other people, you know, and that's part of the thing that you're not allowed to say, but I mean, it's not loving to, you know,

those girls in the locker room who don't, who don't want that guy who's pretending to be a

girl in their locker room with them, you know.

So it's not loving to them.

It's not loving to the, all the female athletes out there in the world.

It's not loving to, you know, to the children that these individuals are, you know, parading

themselves around half naked and, you know, encouraging to put, you know, money in their underwear, you know.

Like, it's not loving to anyone and, you know, and beyond that, more importantly than all that,

it doesn't honor the Lord, just a lot of people.

Jared.

So, the truth will set us free, man, you know.

Jesus says you'll know the truth and truth will set you free.

The lies are not going to set anyone free.

Pete.

And I mean, for people listening, you know, you might be listening to Tim and thinking that some of those situations must

be exaggerated that he described, like, especially like children being paraded around

half naked, you know, like homosexuals and, you know,

men pretending to be women, women pretending to be men being forced to put money in

their underwear.

But those are, I mean, just go on Twitter, just go on Twitter for like 30 seconds and you can find those videos.

They're out there and they're, I mean, they're disgusting.

Jared.

Yeah, it's interesting because I think right around Pride Month, everyone started sharing all those videos and then, you know, you had a lot

of people who were essentially saying, hey, you know, we don't want to see this kind of thing.

And, you know, I didn't want to see my timeline, you know, you know, blowing up with, you know,

all these individuals in state of undress.

But then, you know, there is like, there is something about Christians that we do.

I don't think we should, what I'm trying to say is I don't think we

should, we shouldn't be sharing those kind of things.

But then there is the sense in which we are very sheltered from the realities of the kind of things that go on at,

you know, gay pride parades and that are happening at these drag queen story hours.

And, you know, if you did actually see the kind of things that are actually going on, you

would react in a more visceral way than what you are when you're sheltered from them.

Absolutely.

Pete.

Sort of take things more seriously.

Jared.

And the same thing with like, you know, these, all these pictures on Twitter of, you know, girls who essentially have scars, you

know, right across their chest, you know, the pictures of the post, you know,

top surgery kind of thing and all that.

And it's just, it's the kind of thing that, you know, no one wants to see, but then it's just, it's horrible, you know,

and it's, and just listening to them tell their stories of, you know, sorrow that as a result, when

they finally wake up and realize what they've done, like, this is the worst thing we can possibly do.

But I mean, you didn't have to know, you know, maybe some of those things are the kind of things that woke JD grew up a

little bit to where he offered his non -retraction retraction, which at

least, you know, it seems like he's mostly on the right side now.

And I'm thankful for that, but I mean, I don't, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to have a retraction,

I do think you should do it more like Rosario Butterfield kind of retraction to say that, you know, the

previous statement you made was one of the most, you know, stupid things you've ever said, you know, as an adult

Christian, that's better, you know, that's better, you know.

You're owning it.

Yeah, to a much greater degree.

So, I respect that a lot more, but then I'm glad he's on the right side, but it may be that he's seen, you know, a lot more now and

woke him up a little bit, you know, and part of it, you know, I just, I wonder about his

own, you know, moral judgment with some of these things.

It doesn't seem like it takes, it's not all that complicated to,

like, this isn't a complicated subject.

And it doesn't, like, this isn't something that's like a deep mystery or something like that.

And I think what, the only reason why it's complicated for a person like him is because he is,

there is a philosophy of ministry that kind of gets in the way that, you know, the philosophy of

ministry is essentially to kind of cuddle on believers and tell them what they want to hear, period, you know?

And so, that just kind of goes along with it and it goes against, that's his basic instinct is just to, you know,

it's not a truth -teller instinct, it's a, you know, basically a coddle

on believer kind of instinct, you know?

So, there's that.

Pete.

So, is it the same situation if someone were to ask you your preferred

pronouns?

Like, if you give, if you answer that question, are you

legitimizing pronoun usage at that point?

Jared.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I wouldn't even answer that question.

You know, I would just say that there are, there's no such thing as preferred pronouns, there's only

those pronouns that correspond to biological realities, right?

So, I don't get to pick my pronouns any more than you get to pick your pronouns, God's assigned my pronouns, you know?

Essentially, they're assigned by virtue of the language we speak,

which is corresponding to created realities that are, you know, not up to my

personal whim here, you know?

So,.

Pete.

Yeah, I prefer you use my, my only preference is you use my pronouns in English so I can understand you.

Jared.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, okay.

Well, I think, I think that's pretty clear.

So, what if a person refuses, so like, okay, biblical counseling situation.

That's what, that's what one of the issues that I had with what J .D. Greer said, he brought up a hypothetical

situation that you mentioned where, you know, you have a, you have a parent and a child, the child

is confused, right, on their gender, they think they're a boy, but they think they're a girl,

and they refuse to talk to you unless you use their preferred pronouns.

In that kind of situation, do you use their preferred pronouns and maybe like,

you know, say, hey, I, like, you are not a girl,

but I will say she in order to share the gospel with you and tell you why this is sin.

No.

Okay, why not?

Same deal.

So, that's still lying?

Jared.

Yeah.

Tavis.

Even if you say, I do, like, you are not a, you are not a girl, right?

Jared I mean, yeah.

Makes my head hurt.

Tavis.

There's a lot of moving parts here.

Jared.

No, I mean, like that, I, I understand that you're bringing that

example up because that's the kind of example that people use, but that kind of example makes my head hurt, you know.

So, it's like, yeah, I mean,

I'm trying to give, like, a comparable situation that could bring some moral clarity

to that kind of arrangement as far as that goes.

But I mean, just, you know, just imagine that you're counseling a woman who, like,

demands that you refer to her as your wife in order to, like, as a

precondition for counseling her or something like that.

It's like, well, you're not, you know?

Tavis.

Right.

Jared.

It's like, yeah, well.

Tavis I'm married already.

I'm not going to do that.

Jared.

I'm not going to do that, yeah.

So, I mean, it's just a matter of, like, yeah, well, okay, well, I'll, let me just, like, if the only way you'll talk to me is

that I have to do that, it's like, well, no, like, that's, we're not going to go there, you know?

Tavis.

Would you just, like, would you push it and say, no, you're

a guy, and then purposely, you know, say

him or his, or just go to, like, I'm just going to use your

name?

Jared.

Yeah, it has to be a specific kind of situation for that to happen anyways, because, like, him and her are, like, third person,

you know, singular pronouns there, and so you're not going to naturally use that in a one -on -one

conversation, you know, in general.

So, like, it would have to be kind of a situation like he brought up where, you know, you have the father

there, and then he's referring to the son as a she, you know, and then

demands that you go along, and when you refer to her in his presence to call her a she.

Does that make sense?

Tavis.

Yeah.

Jared to be that kind of situation for it to make sense, but then, I mean, generally, you don't appease Hitler,

right?

Like, meaning, you know, you don't, what I'm trying to say is, like, you can,

you know, if the entirety of our counseling relationship, like, it's dependent on some kind of lie or

something like that in order for it to function, I just, you know, come to me when you're ready to have a real conversation,

because all I'm going to say is I'm going to encourage you to turn from this sin.

Tavis.

Like, you know, so I'm not going to pretend like you're a unicorn.

I'm not going to pretend like you're a fairy.

I'm not going to pretend like you're a dragon.

I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to do that, you know?

So, like, just maybe, you know, like, just to help people

understand, because, like, there's one area where you can't do this anymore, and that would be with, like, the racial discussion, right?

So, like, if you had a white person who was demanding you call an African American, right, or something like that, or a

black person, like, everyone would know that, no, I'm not going to counsel you if you demand that I, you know, pretend like you

are a different ethnicity than what you actually are, right?

So, just imagine how that would go.

Like, that's, like, you're, for some reason, that's, like, worse than the gender pronoun things in the minds

of other people, like cultural appropriation and all that.

You can't do that.

That's, like, a scandal of sin, but no, like, that's not going to be, like, that's not the way that this is going to work,

and if you want help, like, you're not going to get help.

We're not going to have help on your terms, right?

And so, like, a precondition of me helping you is not for me to, like, validate your delusion to some degree.

Like, that's just not the way that it's going to work, and I'm not going to go along with it, and if you want help, like, and this is something I tell

people in counseling in general, like, just in general, when I'm counseling them, it's like, hey, you know, my, I have

them sign a statement that basically says, like, the counselor is going to give you his interpretation of scripture.

You know, that's what we're doing here, and so, like, what I tell people over and over again is, if you want

counsel, I will give you counsel.

You may or may not like it, okay?

You may or may not like it, but I'm going to give you what I believe, like, biblical counsel here, and if

you want it, I believe it'll help you, you know, but if you don't want it, then it, I don't have any, I

can't be of help to you, as far as that goes.

Right.

So, either you want it or you don't, you know, like, and, you know, there's,

you know, I used to watch Dr. Phil back in the day, but he had

this, you know, he had this funny line that he would say, like, when he was dealing with the stubborn

and obstinate or whatever, they're basically arguing with him and disagreeing with him, and you just look at him and you

basically say, well, how's that working out for you?

You know, it's not working out for you very well.

You know, but that's kind of the point, like, people come to counseling because they want help.

They want help solving their problems, and if you want help, I'll give you help, but you're not going to put strings upon the kind of help I'm going to give you.

Right.

You either take it or you don't, you know, and so, like, we're not going to start out with, like, a hostage negotiation

to where you're holding my head up, holding a gun to my head and basically demanding the kind of counsel you want.

Like, if that's what you're doing, you don't want me, you know?

Like, and I'm not going to be any good to you because I'm not going to play that game at all, you know?

So, like, that's just, we're not going to go there with it.

Pete.

You know, it's funny you bring that up, because I remember there was a time I was meeting with someone

and trying to share, I was sharing the gospel with them, and we had met, you know, several times up to that point, and it was a

college student, and they told me that they had spent their

entire weekend drinking alcohol.

And I knew why they were doing that.

They were doing that to, you know, cover up with all of their emotional, you know, baggage that they didn't want to

feel anything, because I knew that they were really sad and pretty weighed down by their sin.

They knew what they were doing was wrong.

And so, you know, I thought about, hey, all right, like, it's really hard to get through to this person.

Do I just tell them what they're doing is wrong?

No, maybe there's another way.

And as I was listening to them, they told me, like, hey, I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that.

And they're trying to get, I think at a certain point I came to the realization, they're trying to get a response out of me.

And so, I just asked them, okay, like, all right, you drank all weekend to make yourself feel better.

Did it work?

And they kind of just stared at me for a second because they weren't expecting that.

They're expecting me to say, well, you shouldn't do that, right?

And they just kind of stared at me and then they were like, well, no, I guess it didn't.

Okay, all right, maybe there's a better way, right?

And so, it's funny, I didn't know Dr. Phil did that.

I didn't pick that.

I didn't pick.

Great minds think alike.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, he's crazy.

He's crazy in a lot of ways.

I think it's a normal kind of impulse, though, when you're trying to help someone, like, they're coming to you for help.

It's a normal kind of impulse to where, like, I mean, there's a lot of people who say they want help, but they don't want help help.

They just want, they want, most people, they come to counseling, they want you to basically tell them that everything that they're

thinking and everything that they're feeling and everything that they're doing is absolutely right.

None of their problems are their fault.

Everyone else is, like, to blame.

And what they want, then, is you to basically just, like, validate and affirm everything about them,

about their response, about how they're thinking about it and everything else.

But then there's just this massive kind of problem that's related to that kind of expectation.

It's just the problem of, well, if everything that you're thinking and feeling and doing was right, why do

you need help then, right?

And, like, why do you need my help?

Because it doesn't seem like whatever you're thinking and feeling and doing is working very well, so maybe you should

revisit what you're thinking and feeling and doing.

Now, I mean, that's not to say that, you know, if everyone behaves perfectly, that everything

will go right for them, but, I mean, like, there is meaning, like, in some prosperity sense, but there is, like, if you're

thinking about this correctly and you're feeling about it correctly and you're doing everything right, you should, at the very least,

have some sort of peace and knowledge that God has got it and that He's in control and

that your actions are well -pleasing in His sight, you know?

So there should be, at the very least, that kind of thing, but then when you're just totally destabilized and everything

else, then it is a sign that you might be handling things poorly, at the very least, in

one way or another.

Whether it's, like, you know, things you're doing wrong or you're responding to things that are outside your control wrong, like, if you

want help, we can give you help, but if you don't, but you're going to have to listen to it, you know?

And if you're trying to dictate the kind of help that you actually can receive, then, you know, you might find that

whatever help that this person is going to provide is not going to be what you think it is, you know?

It may not be as effective as what you think it is.

So if all you're looking for is just, you know, someone to tell

you that you're awesome and amazing and wonderful, you know, then just, like, get some kind of, you know,

naïve, gracious girlfriend or something like that.

It's just going to be encouraging to you, you know, that kind of thing.

But if you want, you know, someone who's going to tell you the truth, then

you might have to be willing to hear it.

Right, yeah.

And that's why the Bible says, you know, wounds from a friend can be trusted, right?

Because the Bible's assuming a friend is going to tell you the truth, right?

Whether you want to hear it or not, even when it hurts, right?

Yeah, I mean, that's the funny thing about, you know, people in my life is that, you know, because I don't lie to them in order to

make them feel better, and because I don't, I've developed some sort of reputation of basically telling them

what I believe is true, no matter how, like, you know, in any situation, when they come to me, ask me

what I think, I've developed a reputation that they're going to get what I think.

And a lot of times they may not like it, you know?

But I at least have, I'll at least love them enough to get, to tell them it.

But one of the things that's really interesting about that, you know, looking at the people that, like in my life, is that

often, you know, they, people will respond pretty poorly to that, you know, at

first.

But then when their life is a mess, and when things are going wrong, and they have all these people around them who are telling them

lies, and they know their lies, right?

They know their lies, because they're not working, right?

And so, you know, imagine like the single person who no one wants to marry, and, you know, everyone around them is just telling them that

they're awesome, and that they're amazing, and just wait, their Prince Charming is going to come one day, and all that kind of stuff, right?

You know, like, everyone around them is telling them those kind of things, and they know their lies.

Like, they know that there's no promise, you know, but then they'll come to me, you know, like, when

they have no one left to go to, right?

They'll come to me, because everyone else is lying to them.

They'll actually seek me out and come to me, because they know I'll be honest with them, you know, and I'll tell them the truth, you know, as far as

that goes.

And when, like, their problems have gotten to the point where they can't stand them anymore, they'll come to me, you know, and I'll be the

person they come to.

They won't come to any of the other friends, you know, friends they have who are going to lie to them.

They'll come to me, and they'll know that they'll actually get an answer, and they know that they're probably not going to like it, you know?

But then they, at least they know that, like, that they can trust me, because I'm not going to lie to their

face about it.

Pete Right.

I've been that person before with you.

Jared Right.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's like,.

And you probably know what's going to, what I'm going to say before I say it, because it's going to be the one thing you don't want to hear, right?

There's going to be that one thing you want to hear, but there's one thing you know is right, you know?

But then that does give you, you know, stability.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, it does give a person stability just to say, okay, like, I can't deny the obvious, you know?

Here's what it is.

And, you know, I've often had people come to me like that, and they can tell me my position before I even say it,

because it's, one, it's the biblical position that they're trying to fight, right?

And two, it's like they know I'm the only one who's going to shoot straight with them, you know, as far as that

goes.

That's why it's so important not to lie to people from the start, though.

Like, if you have some kind of counseling situation that is, you know, basically starting with a gun to your head, you play by my

rules, or else you don't have access to me.

It's like, well, whenever you're ready, you come, right?

When you're ready to have a real conversation, you come talk to me.

But until you're ready, I can't help you at all.

And that's what people need to say.

Like, that's what you need to say in those kinds of situations.

I'm not going to be of any help to you until you come to the end of your road and realize that you have nowhere else to go to,

right?

Pete.

Right.

Jared.

Then I'll give you what's right.

But I'm not going to start this off, like, you know, basically shooting

myself in the foot, you know, with any kind of integrity that I have by basically playing by the rules that you want me to

play by.

Pete Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Okay, last question, and this is one that I know I've seen, even from

people who are in every other area, I would consider

totally, you know, well, I mean, as far as, you know, as far as, like,.

Jared Mostly faithful.

Pete You can tell from the public eye, you know, faithful, right?

Jared Yeah, yeah.

Pete Maybe totally faithful is not the fairest thing to say, you know, since we're all sinful, but

they're solid guys, right?

Um, I have seen even solid guys that I listened to, some of them,

um, who refer to transgenderism as a mental disorder,

right?

So, so we mentioned talking, you know, you see the picture, you see the pictures of people who, they got top

surgery, right?

They, they removed their breasts, or, um, you know, in some cases, they're removing their genitals,

right?

They're, they're mutilating.

Themselves.

Jared.

Thankfully, no one's photos.

I don't want to see it.

Pete I don't know that we need to start sharing those ones.

I'll, yeah, me personally, I'll just, you know, I'm going to take your word for it, right?

Um, but you, you see these, uh, you see

how terrible these things are.

And, and now you even have videos coming out of, of people who have, they, they're, they're a

year or several years down the road from getting this sort of, I mean, life

altering, uh, types of surgery and medications that you're taking to, um,

you know.

Jared.

Well, the numbers have, the numbers have.

Spiked, you know, and so now I think you have enough time that's gone by to now

see the,.

You know, wreckage at the end of it.

Pete.

Right, right.

And so, so people, so that's really making its way onto social media right now.

You can't deny it, that it's happening.

Um, and so in response, um, a lot of people have been saying, hey, you know, like

transgenderism is just straight up a mental disorder.

Like that's how bad this is.

Um, so -.

Jared.

And we shouldn't be, like,.

Encouraging them and their mental disorder kind of thing, right?

Pete.

Right, right.

Yeah.

So, so they're not like, they're not saying it's a mental disorder as like a cop out.

They're saying it as like a, this is a serious thing.

This is something very serious that we're not taking seriously enough.

Uh, and, and it's so serious that it's a mental disorder.

It's just gotta be, right?

And so, so what, so how do you view that?

I mean, is, is it a mental disorder?

Um, or,.

You know, well, is it a mental disorder?

Jared.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think that was this, you know, the, the same kind of thing happened with, um, sodomy as far as that goes.

And so it used to be viewed as a mental disorder.

And then, and then, you know, after, you know, you have lobbying with the American Psychiatric

Association and all that, like it, it got removed out of the DSM from like a mental disorder until

now.

It's like, it's not considered a mental disorder anymore due to pressure as far as that is concerned.

So step one was labeled as a mental disorder.

And then step two is to remove it from that.

And now, like often when people are talking about transgenderism, you'll hear the language, like the therapeutic kind of language, they're

suffering from gender dysphoria or whatever else, right?

And so like, like these are people like, and you'll hear like conservative voices, like individuals like Matt Walsh or whatever say,

these people are suffering from a mental disorder.

This is gender dysphoria.

They're suffering from a mental disorder.

They don't need to, you know, have, uh, you know, these predatory doctors preying upon them and, you know, essentially

encouraging them to make irreversible choices.

They're suffering from a mental disorder.

And so there's a kind of sympathy that's given to them as far as that, that's concerned.

And you know, that's the part of the problem is with the mental disorder language.

And we've talked about this in different kinds of episodes is that when people hear that, they hear that this is like a brain

problem, essentially.

Like this is like, um, like, and not just, it's a brain problem.

Like, like what they don't hear is this is a problem of thought and behavior that a

person is in charge of.

Does that make sense?

They're not hearing like, this is a problem of thinking and a problem of behavior.

And we are responsible moral agents before God.

And we're responsible for how we think and how we act like what they're based in, in even, you know, how we feel

like this is what, what, what they're saying is that this is a mental problem, mental disorder, meaning

like somehow like all, you know, moral agency is being removed from these individuals.

And they're just suffering from some sort of glitch in the programming.

Right.

And that's what people hear when they hear mental disorder, it was like a glitch in the programming.

Right.

So like this, this, uh, the brain in some sense is structurally flawed in some way that's producing

this, these feelings or sensation that an individual, you know, like they're, they were born a man

and then they somehow believe that like their, their own personal identity is not matching up with that.

And it's somehow a brain problem is somehow a biological problem.

Uh, you know, and that it couldn't be further from the truth.

This is not a brain.

This is not a biological problem.

This is not a brain problem.

This is like, you're talking about the origin of this problem.

This is not like, this is not a mental illness in that way.

It is a problem of thought and behavior.

Like in the sense, it's like a, I guess, uh, like it is mental illness.

In that sense, it's a thought, you know, problem of thought and behavior, but this is a culpable, these are culpable issues

as far as that goes.

And so we, we would do better to not use the language of mental disorder as it relates to these, this kind of subject and,

um, and take away all moral responsibility that's happening here.

Yeah.

You have a, you have an epidemic of, you know, young girls in particular who are embracing this

transgender, uh, kind of delusion, but that it's, you know, this is

mostly responding to peer pressure.

It's mostly responding to body image kind of issues.

It's mostly responding to, you know, um, uh, it's a rejection of their assigned gender.

It's related to their, you know, their, um, relationship with men in general.

Like these, these are, these, these, these are moral problems that we're talking about.

This is not just, um, this is not some kind of, you can't cop out and just act like as if it's some kind of

biological problem that's happening.

Right.

It's a sin issue.

It's a sin issue.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is a sin issue.

This is not some kind of quasi -medical illness that people are unresponsible for that they need help.

No, like these are centers that like are rejecting the image of God in themselves.

Uh, this is a sin issue.

This is a moral issue.

And we should talk about it in moral terms in that way.

Yeah.

But there's great problem is like that may feel mean to some people, but like, there's great hope in treating it as a moral issue because if it's a

moral issue, it can be repented of.

Right.

And so God's given people over to a debased mind, a mind that's no longer a mind that can mind that's not functioning as it

should.

Uh, this is a high handed rejection of the image of God in them, you know, but it's something that can be repented of.

Um, but I mean, you know, if you, if you go down the surgery route, you know, there are longterm entailments to

that or the hormone treatment, there's longterm entailments of that, that you may never be delivered from.

And that's why we need to warn people, but this isn't some kind of, you know, problem that's beyond their, like

they're.

Not morally responsible for.

Yeah.

Well, that's what I was going to ask, you know, so for the, for those people who they, okay.

So I saw a video, um, this last week of,

uh, I don't even know, honestly, what gender the, this person actually was.

It was so hard.

It was just hard to tell.

Um, and, and, but they re they regretted

going through all of the things that they did to try and, you know, change their gender as if you could.

Um, and so for that person, so I, based on what you're saying,

we should, number one, still that still view that person, even though what you're seeing,

the regret you're seeing is, I mean, is just like heart wrenching.

I mean, it's, it's awful to see someone have to go through that.

You still have to recognize like, Hey, this person is sinful.

And the reason they're going through this is because of, uh, I mean, certainly

deception, you know, on a lot of people's parts, probably, uh, pressure from, you know, certain

people in that person's life, or at least from.

Society in general.

Um, but it could be poor responses to, you know, real legitimate, you know, sins of others against

them too.

Right.

Um, but like, if you're a girl who is like raped or something like that, and then you don't, you know,

or a girl that's not, you know, desirable to most men or something along those lines, and you want to quit

feeling undesirable, you can, you know, turn to transgenderism as some kind of all purpose,

like, uh, rejection of your femininity to not have to, to try to drown out like the feelings

of, you know, being undesirable or to make yourself totally undesirable to men, you know, in a certain sense

too, but keep on going.

Pete Yeah.

So, we still need to view those people as sinful, right?

Jared Yeah.

And the regret and the remorse that they're happening that, like, that isn't a sign of repentance at all.

Pete.

Right.

Jared.

So, I mean, that, you know, that may just be worldly sorrow, right?

So, there's godly sorrow, there's worldly sorrow, and, you know, the sorrow of the world leads to death, which is why a lot of

transgender, you know, people who pretend as if they're a different gender for a period of time and

try to, you know, surgically and chemically change their gender, like, which is impossible to do, they end

up killing themselves because they're, what's actually happening is that, like, the kind of sorrow they have is worldly sorrow, which leads to

death.

It's not godly sorrow.

They don't see themselves as, you know, sinful objects of God's wrath, right?

Pete.

Right.

Jared.

Like, who have rejected the image of God and them, who are in need of repentance and forgiveness from their Maker.

That's the problem is that they don't have any solution to this.

And the more that you describe it as if they were suffering from some sort of mental disorder, right?

Well, if they were suffering, one, if they were suffering from some kind of mental disorder, why did they change their mind?

Do you get what I'm saying?

Pete.

Yeah, yeah.

Jared.

I mean, if it's just like, you know, like, if it was like a legitimate

mental disorder, like, you know, mental retardation or something like that, I know you're not allowed to use that

expression, but I could care less.

Like, if they were mentally retarded, right?

Like, that's not something you can grow out of.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Because it's a bit like, you know, or if it's a legitimate brain problem, it's not something you can just

change overnight, right?

And so the fact that, like, they experienced buyer's remorse at the end shows that this is a moral decision they made,

that they were capable of getting to the other side of.

Does that make sense?

Pete.

Yeah, yeah.

Jared.

So, I mean, that doesn't mean that anyone who's not capable of shutting off the unpleasant feelings, it

then is in the category of mental disorder.

I'm just trying to say that obviously, you know, all the people who are experiencing buyer's remorse, they didn't have a

mental problem, right?

Now, and if you call them, if you say that this is a mental disorder, you know, then you're cutting them off from, like,

the solutions that you're going to find in the gospel too.

Pete.

Yeah, the thing that's actually going to help.

Jared.

The thing that's going to help is for them to take responsibility for what they did and to

repent of it and to consider it a sin against God.

And if they could see it, like, in a God -centered way, that this is sin against my, a high -handed

rebellion against my maker, then the issue is they could become forgiven.

And they may be, like, you know, one of those individuals who've made themselves eunuchs, right, or were made eunuchs by men,

but then they could still be a faithful eunuch, you know, to God at that point going forward.

God can give them a righteousness, like, an alien righteousness, His own righteousness as a free gift,

and can fundamentally change the situation they find themselves in.

I mean, not like, I mean, He could, you know, fix all the results of it if He wanted

to.

His hand is not limited, but He generally doesn't choose to do that.

There are consequences to this, but they can have His pleasure going forward, and they can be a

faithful Christian going forward, and they can inherit eternal life going forward, and they can look forward to the day when

everything will be made right.

But that's not going to happen if you're just basically, you're treating them as if they're non -morally accountable

agents before God.

Yeah, if you're not treating it like what it is, sin, or if you're

lying to someone just in the name of trying to gain an audience,

even just to gain an audience with them.

I mean, you're actively preventing them from

getting to the solution that God provides, and that's the whole point.

That's why this is such a big deal.

That's why we can't, you know, show quote -unquote pronoun hospitality.

It's such a goofy phrase to even say.

But we can't because ultimately, it's preventing people from

repenting of legitimate sin in their life, right?

And if we don't repent, then God's clear what happens to us, right?

We have to face condemnation for our sin and spend eternity in hell experiencing

God's wrath.

So….

And the only thing, I mean, the only hope they have, I mean, the only hope that a person like that who has basically destroyed their

chance of ever, you know, having intimacy with, like, physical

intimacy with another human being for the rest of their life, producing children for the rest of their life, the only

hope that person has is to live to a higher transcendent purpose,

right?

To live to the glory of God.

That's the only hope they have because they've rejected, you know, some of the most

significant and essential things that make them human beings, right?

– Right, right.

And so, like, the only hope they have is to learn to live to God and learn to live to His pleasure.

And apart from that, I mean, like, that's, like, we're gonna see a wave of suicides.

– Yeah.

And, you know, as a final sort of, like, hey, there is still hope, even for that

person who has mutilated their body beyond repair, but, you know,

they repented, right?

And now they're trying to pursue obedience to God as

best they can in light of the fact that they're still going to have to face consequences for their sinful actions.

One of the great hopes, I think, is that, you know, one day we will spend eternity

with God and, you know, the Bible says that we'll be glorified, that the Father will glorify us,

meaning we'll be made perfect, right?

– Right, right.

And so, not only is our sin nature removed from us, but

we're given perfect bodies as well.

– All the consequences will be removed, yep.

– Yeah, all the consequences will be removed.

And so, I think there is still a hope for that person, not necessarily, you know, in terms of their physical

body, not necessarily in this life, but then in the life to come, that God can still,

God will fix those things.

– Sure.

And so, I think that's a good hope for us, but I think that's

everything I've got for you, Tim.

So, I think that's a good place to sort of wrap things up and just sort of end on

a note of hope for that person.

So, hopefully this has been an encouraging episode for you guys.

I think there's a lot to be taken away if you're the, you know, if you're the person who's a Christian, who is

already against these ideas, you know, I think there's a lot to be taken from this in

the sense of, like, no, don't use pronouns, number one.

Don't use pronouns.

But then, number two, be bold in sharing the gospel.

Be bold in calling sin, sin, because if you don't, then you're not

helping anyone, right?

You're not actively participating in the ministry of reconciliation because you're not trying to get

anyone to realize that they need to be reconciled with God.

And so, and for the people listening who, you know, who are tempted to

reject God's design for them and their physical bodies, we would just encourage you, you

know, accept the way that God has made you because it is the only way God has made you and there

is no other alternative.

He assigned your gender at birth and you cannot change it no matter how much the society tells you you can.

And if you try to change it, you are actively rejecting His creation and you are rejecting Him.

So, repent of those sins, fight against those sins, find a local church who will hold you accountable and who

will encourage you and show, you know, true love towards you, not the kind of love

that people who are pushing pronoun hospitality would say is love.

Find people who will actually love you and tell you the truth even when it hurts.

So, we thank you guys for listening and supporting us week in and week out and we

look forward to having you guys on the next one.

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our

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Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes

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If you would like to be Bible Bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling which you can

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be

perpetually offended by your every move.