Is the Sabbath Day binding today?

The Apologetic Dog

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What is up guys, this is KJ, short for Khalil Jones, and this is Why Theology. Today is a very special day because I found an old episode that I forgot to release.

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Me and Jeremiah, we never got a chance to kind of redo this episode because for some reason, I don't know why, my old computer, when we were recording this episode, it cut out, or I guess you could say deleted, one of the parts of this discussion or debate, and so I never released this episode because one of the parts got cut out, but today

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I went back in my free time, listened to it, and I thought it was still some good material that Christians can learn from this discussion. And so, me and Jeremiah actually had a friendly debate about, is the

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Christian Sabbath day still binding today? Now, what I just mentioned, how one of the parts got cut out, so like, once you listen to this episode, you don't get kind of confused, the layout that me and Jeremiah did, we initially started off with what the gospel is, so everybody who is listening could be able to understand, okay, this is not a primary issue, like if I leave this podcast on one side, it doesn't affect my eternal destination.

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So we started off with what the gospel is, and our debate style was like this, we both had our opening statements, and then the next part was supposed to be rebuttals, and then we had brief

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Q &A to check each other while we kind of hold to our positions, and so my computer deleted both our rebuttals, and so when you listen to this, you hear us talk about the gospel, and then you hear both me and Jeremiah get to our opening statements, but you won't hear our initial rebuttals.

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And so, I'll probably reach out to Jeremiah, and so we probably can have a part two of this discussion or debate, so you guys can still learn from this, and again,

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I think it's so crucial in the church today, we can have disagreements on secondary issues, but still be united on the primary issue, which is

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Jesus Christ alone. So I hope you guys learned from this, if you have any questions, reach out to me, and thank you guys.

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What is up, guys? My name is KJ, and I have my co -host, Jeremiah, can you introduce yourself, man?

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Hey, it's always an honor, KJ, being on here with you and talking about why theology matters, and we basically want people to understand that understanding who

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God is in truth is probably the most important thing you could ever think about and come to understand is who

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God is and who we are in light of Him, so theology is important. And so, like I said, it's always an honor to be on here with you, and one quick announcement is coming up in May, I believe it's

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May 17th, I'm actually doing a debate against a Roman Catholic, we're talking about was

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Mary sinless? And so us as Reformed Protestants, we're saying, no, Mary had a sin nature, and she received a inherited sin nature from her father,

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Adam, like we all have, and we all need a Redeemer, which is Christ, so be on the lookout for that coming up in the near future.

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It's going to be a pretty awesome debate. Can you tell them again what church you go to, man, so they can kind of...

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Absolutely. So I'm here in Jonesboro, Arkansas, not too far from KJ and Brother Preston.

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I go to 12 .5 Church, and please feel free to go to our church website at 12 .5church

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.com. That's the name in Word 12, the letter five, or the number five, and then church .com.

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So go check us out there and support us. But yeah, glad to be here, KJ. Definitely, definitely.

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So that is Jeremiah. Like I said, my name is KJ, and now today, we're going to have a pretty fun discussion about the

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Sabbath day. But before we do that, it's always good to kind of talk about how there can be differences within the body of Christ, but we should all be in agreement on the essential things, those core doctrines of all

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Christians that makes us Christians. So the first question before we kind of talk about the Sabbath day, you know, what is the gospel?

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You want to go first? You want to go first? We can tag team how you want to do it. Absolutely, man. A lot of times with my students, we talk about the gospel means the good news, and really for good news to be properly understood, you've got to understand the bad news first.

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And the bad news is the just judge of all the earth will always do right, exercise holy justice.

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And we are lawbreakers to that holy, holy, holy, just God. And so we rightly are on this path, this broad road to destruction, to hell, because we sin against him.

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And so the gospel tells us that God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, was perfectly obedient to the law and paid the full punishment for sin by dying on the cross.

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And you can receive forgiveness of sin. This is the good news by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and him, him alone.

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So when you put all of your trust in Christ and love him, then your sin can get put on the cross.

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And in exchange, you can receive his righteousness, his perfect obedience. And God, the

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Father will see you as righteous and no longer guilty of that sin. So that's the gospel in a nutshell.

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And I just add, Jermiah said is spot on. Only thing I would add is, you know, a lot of times people have a hard time, you know, what is sin?

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And so as standard to heaven, of course, we know it's like over 613 laws, but that can all be summarized as simply 10 commandments, just three of them.

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The Bible talks about, you know, we shouldn't lie. The Bible talks about how no one should steal and commit adultery.

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Well, you ask those questions in a question format. Have you ever lied before? Have you ever stolen?

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Have you ever left out the guy or girl? And the answer is yes to all those. And it makes you a sinner like all of us.

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And so a lot of times people think the standard to get to heaven is like another sinner or another neighbor to have or another brother or sister, father, mother.

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But the standard is perfection. How Jermiah talked about imperfection is seen in God alone.

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That's why the Bible talks about how there's none righteous, not a single one. And so because of that, we are all deserving of the just punishment of sin that God has for sin, which is a place called hell.

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And a lot of times people don't have, I guess, a mess of idea what hell is. But it's not run by the devil.

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The devil, someone has created is run by the person who created hell, which is God himself. God hates sin and he has to punish sin.

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But 2000 years ago, the Bible says that this God, the Bible, this guy placed his wrath upon himself or the second person,

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Jesus Christ. And for those who would trust in Jesus will be saved by trusting the personal work of Christ, you'd be saved.

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So spot on me and you both. And real quick, as I say, we have

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Easter Sunday coming up and I think the resurrection is crucial to God because Jesus not only suffered and died and took our place on the cross,

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God. So we're really looking forward to celebrating that next Lord's Day. It's going to be awesome in Africa or maybe maybe it's the new

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Sabbath for some people. We're going to talk about that now. What are so what you kind of got done talking about the gospel that is most core, essential, primary thing you can kind of know as a

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Christian. If you don't believe what we just said, you're probably not saved and you need to get there. But as a

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Christian, what are some other essential things that you must kind of believe in? Yes. So I think the core things you must believe in to be saved is one, you got to believe in the right

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Jesus, you believe in the right God, to believe in a Jesus that's a figment of your imagination, does not say that's why

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Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sin. You got to believe in the right eternal creator,

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Jesus, to have your sins forgiven. And you have to receive him properly according to his terms.

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That's why we always talk about repentance and faith, repentance and faith. That's what it means to believe in him, not just having knowledge and facts about him.

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But you got to believe in the right Jesus, who is the eternal God, and you have to repent and believe in him or repent and put your faith, trust, love in him.

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So those are crucial. And I will go as far to say is you must affirm the triune

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God of scripture, God, the father, God, the son, God, the Holy Spirit, one God who is revealed in three persons.

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And this is an area that I don't think everybody has a robust understanding of the you can still be saved.

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But if you are confronted with the whole counsel of God about who God is and you reject that, then that would place one outside the bounds of orthodoxy and the faith.

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So you got to receive the right God in truth. And it must be through the means of repentance and faith and not by works.

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I don't think a couple of things that I have is kind of like believing in the whole counsel of scripture, kind of you mentioned like the

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Old Testament and hearing today, both those are like infallible and inerrant. The virgin birth,

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Christ was both God and man, stuff like that. Those are all things like as a Christian, you can hold all those things.

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Now, someone who's an unbeliever will kind of disagree with those things. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't believe Jesus is God, stuff like that. They kind of tell you how the person is really saved.

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But those, again, are those core doctrines. So a lot of that, man, Jeremiah, is the topic of the

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Sabbath day. Is it going to determine that man, you go to hell or heaven? Not at all. It's an important issue for sure, but it doesn't even come close to that first tier gospel issue.

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In fact, our differences will probably be very nuanced and might even be more semantical.

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And we're really saying a lot of the same things a different way. But yeah, this is this is tertiary issue.

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We understand that what the gospel is, then everything else we can lovingly sharpen one another and talk about disagreements.

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And it can be edifying when it's done in a brotherly love manner, like like me and you always talk about.

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We talk about other things. We've even talked about our differences in eschatology and it's all good. Now, I'm still waiting to determine you almost there.

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But man, let's get to this topic man's discussion. I give I guess for our listeners, we can kind of give them a kind of layout kind of what we're doing and also help me and you.

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So the layout we kind of talking about today, you know, is the Sabbath day still,

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I guess, active or binding on the Christian today? What is the true Sabbath? I guess, how do we define it? And so the layout today,

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Jeremiah, he'll go first. He'll take about five to 10 minutes to talk about how he defines Sabbath day.

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I'll follow right behind him with five to 10 minutes. And then we'll have rebuttal times, both me and him, about five minutes.

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And then after that, we'll have like a little Q &A section. We'll kind of ask each other a question. So I guess during that time, let's say like Jeremiah goes first, he will have two minutes kind of ask me questions and I have a minute to respond.

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And then when I go vice versa, same thing. And they were kind of closed when he last thing. So we kind of have. But let's start a man,

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Jeremiah, you can kind of kick us off, man. You got about five to 10 minutes to discuss what is a Sabbath day. Go ahead.

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All right. Thanks, KJ. So we're talking about the Sabbath and coming from definitions are very important to my stance.

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So when I read the Hebrew and the Greek for the word Sabbath, they're both consistent in terms of being the seventh day of the week.

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And another reason why this is an important topic when we're saying, you know, what is the

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Sabbath and how does it apply to Christians today is when you look at the fourth commandment, it begins by saying, remember to keep the

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Sabbath day and to keep it holy. So we say, okay, you know, we're not to forget this. We're saying to bring this to the forefront of your mind.

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Remember this. And one big part of my position is the Sabbath became a sign for the for theocratic

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Israel, I believe, in Exodus 31, 32, right around there. And it's a sign for you and your people.

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Well, started even at creation, God was working on the Sabbath day, the seventh day, sanctified it, consecrated it and made it holy.

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But there were no commandments given to his people for all this time until Moses comes on the scene and receives the law.

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And then you receive prohibitions to rest on the seventh day from your work.

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And if you don't, then there are civil laws and consequences for doing that.

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So we look at the Old Testament. We see how important the Sabbath is to God's people, namely theocratic

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Israel. So important, in fact, that we see a man in the book of Numbers totally defying

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God's law, picking up sticks on the Sabbath, which tells us that he was working and basically spitting in the face of God saying,

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I do what I want when I want. I don't, I disregard your law. And so he broke the

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Sabbath and that was punishable by death being stoned to death. So God's Sabbath was very important for his people to recognize that he is the creator on the seventh day when he rested from his creation.

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So practically speaking, this is not only defined as the seventh day, but it was a day of rest from work and to reflect on creator.

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And this was a day to reflect on repentance, realizing that they needed their creator to provide rest for them, so on and so forth.

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So my position in a nutshell is we see the Sabbath being tethered to the ethnic theocratic people of Israel.

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So we get to the New Testament. We see many passages showing us that Jesus is the fulfillment of this law.

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So this tells us that this is ceremonial in nature, more than a moral commandment.

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So when Jesus comes onto the scene, I believe in Mark chapter two, he tells us that he's even Lord of the

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Sabbath. And this is telling us that Jesus is the Lord even over the Sabbath. And then

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Paul tells us in Colossians two that the Sabbath finds its substance in Christ himself.

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So we're no longer to be judged by a Sabbath or new moons or festivals or these types of ceremonial laws.

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Jesus fulfills the Sabbath by saying, look, I've come to give you rest and rest for your souls.

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And I believe the writer of Hebrews makes the same case that the people of God find their rest in the one and only

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Savior, Jesus Christ. So my position is the Christians today are no longer under the ceremonial law and principle of the

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Sabbath. That was for the people of old theocratic Israel. Now, we are a spiritual

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Israel, but we are under the new covenant. I believe we're still under the covenant of grace.

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Absolutely. But we are no longer under the civil and ceremonial laws that were directly given to theocratic

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Israel. We are the elect of God. We are spiritual Israel in that sense. So I believe that Christians are no longer under the

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Sabbath principle for the seventh day as defined both in Hebrew and Greek. But we are given the apostolic pattern of gathering together on the

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Lord's Day, the first day of the week. Throughout the book of Acts, we see that this is the first day where they would gather together to hear

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God's message being proclaimed by an apostle and his teaching. This is the day that they would break bread.

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And they would set aside money to give from a cheerful heart. And so we no longer see this

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Sabbath day being moved from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week.

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But we see it's finding its fulfillment in the person of Christ. So hopefully, as me and K .J.

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kind of spar a little bit back and forth, it'll get pretty nuanced. I think ultimately me and K .J.

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will be saying the same thing because my position says absolutely the

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Sabbath found its fulfillment in Christ. So I see the seventh day being fulfilled in a person of Jesus, not being fulfilled in a new day, namely the first day of the week.

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So that's that'll probably be where some of the differences come out. Does it go from the last day of the week to the first day of the week or does it go from the last day of the week to the person of Christ?

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And then I imagine K .J. will affirm that then he'll say, but that also applies to his resurrection on the first day of the week.

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And, you know, in some way, I will admit to that in principle. Yes, the first day of the week we celebrate the new creation of being in Christ no longer the seventh day reflecting on God being creator, resting on the seventh day of the week.

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So some of that's nuanced. But where it gets important is answering a few questions, which I'll go ahead and throw out there.

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So K .J. can be thinking on this. We talked about this a little bit, but we said, man, let's let's get together and do a debate.

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So let's do it. One fundamental question is, are we if we're if we're applying the seventh day

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Sabbath principle to the first day of the week, is it wrong to work or to do certain activities on the first day of the week if we're calling this a new

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Sabbath? This is where the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, I love this confession.

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Doesn't mean I agree with everything because, you know, we are called to measure everything, test all things to the word of God and hold fast that which is good.

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My understanding of the 1689 tells us that we are not to work our jobs on the new

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Sabbath and they're implying the first day of the week. And so it seems like the 1689 is implying that that would be simple to some degree to work on the first day of the week.

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And maybe that'll be a talking point for me and K .J. And I'm saying this is actually very important where you come down on understanding the

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Sabbath, because nor do I read in the New Testament that for one, the old

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Sabbath is somehow the first day of the week. But if I grant that, what if I work?

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What if I do some type of activity that doesn't qualify as rest as understood in the Old Testament?

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So if K .J. agrees and says there shouldn't be any punishment for working on the

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Sabbath, then I'm saying in what sense is it sin? Because in the Old Testament, there was a consequence for sin.

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And if the civil law was for theocratic Israel only, and which I think me and K .J.

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both will agree with, I'm saying that is basically my position saying and the ceremonial

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Sabbath was also for Israel as well. So if it's sinful, I'm saying to what degree are we held accountable to God by that?

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And if it is sinful, then what what room do we have for for not meeting on the first day of the week?

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We also talk about Hebrews chapter 10. It says not to neglect the gathering of the body.

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And this is a wonderful thing, but there's other passages that tell us there is liberty.

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I think it's Romans 14, verse five, that says some people honor every day the same.

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And so in principle, there could be providential hindrances to not gather together on the first day of the week.

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But for whatever culture, for whatever reason, it would be permissible to gather on a

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Saturday or a Monday. However, the apostolic pattern has been on the first day of the week.

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So I'm very curious when it comes down to, OK, if this is a new Sabbath, do we do we at what point do we start or we stop carrying over Old Testament principles over to the first day of the week?

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My position simply is the Sabbath was primarily for theocratic

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Israel, the Old Testament that was founded, it found its fulfillment in the person of Jesus Christ.

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And so Christians are under the law of Christ, which is primarily to love God and to love neighbor.

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And we follow the example of gathering together on the Lord's Day, which is the first day of the week, basically symbolizing the day in which he resurrected.

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We celebrate that day together. So one question that I'll ask KJ also is when we look in the book of Acts, how would

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New Testament Christians understand the writer Luke who's penning the book of Acts when he references the

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Sabbath? Is he talking about a first day of the week principle that the 1689 holds to and a lot of our historic reform brethren held to?

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Or is he talking about it in a context of Jews for the seventh day? And if he's talking about the seventh day of the week,

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I'm saying that that's my position in the New Testament, especially in a New Testament Christian perspective after the loss of fulfillment.

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The Sabbath is still understood as the seventh day. So I loved how KJ kind of kicked off this this whole discussion.

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We're definitely talking about a tertiary issue. Me and KJ can lovingly disagree if we think the

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Sabbath is the first day of the week for Christians or my position would say we're no longer under a

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Sabbath, but we gather together not on a new Sabbath, but a the Lord's Day, the first day of the week.

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So these these are nuanced in our distinctions, but I believe they're very important to still discuss today.

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So, KJ, I'll yield the rest of my time to you, sir. Wonderful explanation, man, wonderful, man.

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I'll try to take all our time off tonight and do something just quickly brief, as you guys know, here to the 1689.

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And so I just kind of read this these two sections and it's kind of where I stand. I kind of kind of explain what they're saying.

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But in Chapter 22 of the Sabbath and the 1689, it says this in paragraph seven.

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It is a law of nature that in general, a proportion of time specified by God will be set apart for the worship of God.

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So by his word in a positive, moral and perpetual commandment that obligates everyone every age, he has specifically anointing one day and seven for a

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Sabbath to be kept holy to him from the beginning of the world to resurrection of Christ. The appointed day was the last day of the week after the resurrection of Christ.

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It has been changed the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's Day. This day is to be kept to the end of age as a

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Christian Sabbath since the observing the last of the week has been abolished. And then paragraph eight, it says this, the

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Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord when people have first prepared their hearts appropriately and arranged their everyday affairs in advance.

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Then there's a holy rest all day from their own works, worries and thoughts about their secular employment and recreation.

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Not only that, but they also fill the whole time with public and private acts of worship and the duties of necessity and mercy.

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So the position I'm coming from is, again, a historical reform position. But a couple of things before I get there, let's just kind of define some basics.

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So me, I guess we'll start right here. What is the law? We think about the law in the Old Testament. It's split into three parts.

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We have the ceremony of the civil and the moral law. Now, when Christ says in Matthew five,

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I didn't come to get rid of law, I came to fulfill it. He was referring to all three of those parts of the section of the law.

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And so in the New Testament, we see that Christ has totally done away with the civil and the ceremonial law.

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But the moral law, which is the Ten Commandments, is still binding today, even though Christ has fulfilled it, it's still binding because the moral law reflects who

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God is in essence or his character, which is holiness. And so you could point to God's law and it reflects who he is.

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And so you look the character in person of Jesus. He is a repetition of the law because he kept all those laws perfectly.

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And so when I think about the side of day, I think this Saturday falls into what's called the decalogue, the ten sayings as a

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Hebrew, we know, but the ten sayings again is what's known as a moral law. And so if Christ has done away with both the civil and the ceremonial law and we hold to the reformed brethren said that the

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Ten Commandments is still active and binding today on people not to keep it to go to heaven. But if you're not trusting in Jesus, you have to keep all parts of God's law in a sense to go to heaven.

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You guys know this. But from this point of view, as Christians, we should want to obey law, obey

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God, not because we want heaven, but because we're already going there and want to please the father and want to be like Jesus Christ himself.

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Now, have if Christ were to do away with one part of the moral law, why not Christ do away with all parts of the moral law?

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Because the other nine commandments are still active and binding today as well. We're sharing a gospel like I did earlier.

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I kind of mentioned like three brief commandments like don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery.

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You guys are no murder. Do not covet on your father and mother. But the Saturday is also mentioned in the mix of all these other commandments.

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And so I believe the reason is because the Saturday, there's some kind of moral aspect behind it.

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It's not just talking about a day, which it is, but ultimately how to dramatize it.

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It's pointing to the truth of human in Christ. Now, what is the moral aspect behind the Saturday? I believe the moral aspect is that God is just in demanding that he can set aside a day for his people to worship him.

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And that's definitely moral because his people should be worship him. We know that what is the chief and greatest commandment is to worship

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God and join forever. And so that guy can definitely acquire that from his people. But also we learn in Matthew, I believe it's 11 verse 28.

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Jesus Christ says, come to me all in weary, heavy, heavy laden. I give you rest. And so true rest is ultimately found in Christ.

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But my position is why do we say that the Saturday has been changed for say, first it's kind of being kind of done away with kind of how

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Jeremiah said, well, if you look in the New Testament, yes, the Saturday in the Old Testament was on Saturday because that was their

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Sabbath day. And we get to the New Testament, even the passage that Jeremiah quoted, I believe it's

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Acts 17 verse 2. It says that Paul met in the synagogues, I think on three Sabbaths, some lines of that.

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I'm paraphrasing Jeremiah a bit. But why do we say that it's been changed?

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Well, we look in the New Testament as well as church history, see that revelation, for example, chapter one, verse 10,

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John on the island of Patmos, he said, I was in the I was in the spirit on the Lord's day or basically worshiping on the

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Lord's day. We learn in John four that Jesus says to the Samaritan woman that his people will worship in spirit and truth.

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And so to be in the spirit, which means to kind of worship, that's how that's kind of worship that God requires of his people, which is the worship in spirit and truth.

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And John was doing that kind of worship on the Lord's day in revelation. And so you also see the pattern in New Testament church history.

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We see that many of these Jews who live in this time period, they were indeed following the model of the apostle

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Paul as they were getting away with the ceremony aspect of the Sabbath, all those customs that had to do with the

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Saturday Sabbath and now following the new Sabbath, which again has been changed to Sunday because it's still a moral law.

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But also that's the day that Jesus Christ rose and died again and entered into eternity rest in heaven. And so it's kind of my position.

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I kind of give it to you from there, man, Jeremiah, to kind of do a rebuttal. But you go ahead, man. OK, KJ, my next question is, in light of the 1689

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, would it be sinful to even after a

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Lord's Day service, would it be sinful to do a activity that requires labor and work such as mowing your yard?

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Oh, there is some, I guess, differences in how we view this. I guess my personal opinion is no, if we don't.

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So let's say, for example, like I work Monday through Saturday and my only off day is on Sunday. And so I haven't cut the grass

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Monday to Saturday because I'm working. And so let's say if I'm not neglecting, if whatever activity

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I'm doing is not neglecting or forsaking me from gathering the church on Sunday, whether it be morning service and evening service,

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I would say it's OK. But there are some people within the reformed community who are more strict than me. They try to have everything done on Saturday.

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That way they can just truly dedicate themselves to the Lord, if that makes sense. Absolutely.

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And we're close in that. So, you know, my principle is it's not sinful to do, you know, mow your lawn on the

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Lord's Day, which to me is just Sunday, the first day of the week, not the Christian Sabbath. But I would see something wrong if somebody is waiting to do certain activities to neglect gathering together with their body.

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So it sounds to me, is this fair to say that you're a little bit closer to me on this issue than the 1689 on the issue of the

29:11

Christian Sabbath? Well, ultimately, because I know like the 89 is trying to teach us what scripture says and so like people can kind of like,

29:19

I guess, infer different things from scripture. And so like even though how like I would kind of say, well, the 89 is kind of stating this, someone else may kind of say, well, no, it's stating this same thing with scripture.

29:31

And so like, even though we may be a little bit similar, I'm still on the side of like, let's say, for example, like if I'm cutting grass on Sunday, my church service starts at 11 o 'clock and I decide to cut my grass on Sunday, 11 o 'clock,

29:44

I believe that's totally simple because I'm neglecting the saints to gather with them in church. So it's still a sin because again, it's that fourth commandment,

29:52

I'm breaking it. Yeah. And this is where me and you are basically on the same page functionally because it sounds like you're saying it's

30:03

OK to mow your yard if it's after the service and doesn't interfere with gathering the saints. And I'm over here saying absolutely.

30:09

Amen. I just don't see it as the Christian Sabbath. I just see it simply as the Lord's Day. So now that brings some clarity.

30:15

And I think you also cleared it up in saying it's not that the 1689 is a hard stance that you can't do any of these activities on the

30:25

Lord's Day or it's sinful, it's one's interpretation of the 1689. I think I understood you on that.

30:32

And kind of lastly here, we'll wind down. I wanted some more clarity. You connected Revelation 110 with John 4, where Jesus says, you know, the father is looking for worshipers together to to worship in spirit and truth.

30:46

So I definitely think that John there is talking about how

30:52

God is looking for true worshipers in the sense that they worship from the heart, which is of the spirit and in truth and in accuracy, according to what

31:00

God has revealed. So you seem to have connected that to Revelation 110 and Revelation 110 simply says the

31:10

Lord's Day. So I didn't really make any necessary logical deductions saying that that equals eighth day or first day of the week is the new

31:20

Christian Sabbath. So maybe you could re -explain that to me and why those two together somehow equal Christian Sabbath.

31:27

Definitely. So like kind of what you're inferring, kind of the Sabbath day has always been referred to the Sabbath day, which is, you know, not the

31:33

Sabbath day, the seventh day. So that would be Saturday. Well, what makes this verse so special is because, again, usually worship was on Saturday for the

31:44

Jews. But what's so special about this verse is that John is kind of talking about this worship that Jesus was saying that we should do.

31:52

And it usually is referred to on Saturdays. Now, John is doing this now on the Christian Sabbath, which is

31:57

Sunday. That's kind of I don't know if you kind of draw a distinction there, kind of made that that's kind of how I see that. So this is what we did for a little bit, but I think it's good because I want to bring out some clarity.

32:07

This is a huge verse from my position saying Revelation 110 simply says

32:12

Lord's day. And sure, John is is worshiping on this day. And I do think it's talking about Sunday being the first day of the week.

32:21

But what I don't see from Revelation one is that transfer of the seventh day of the week for for Old Testament theocratic

32:30

Israel to Christians being on the Lord's day. I'm saying what we see is something unique that theocratic

32:38

Israel had. And now Christians gather together on a categorically different day, not one of Sabbath, but one of a

32:45

Lord's day, because that was the day that he resurrected. So are there any clues in the immediate context where I would, you know, kind of gather that?

32:54

And if you say worship, I grant that, you know, he's worshiping. But the

33:00

Apostle Paul in Romans 12 says our whole body are to be living sacrifices, and that is our worship.

33:07

So worship is to be every day for the Christian. And then we gather together in a special way on the

33:14

Lord's day. And I agree with all these principles. But what I'm missing, I guess, from your argument in the 1689 other than the implicit, well,

33:24

Jesus resurrected, therefore Christian Sabbath, I'm saying I need more principles to go on to see that the

33:31

Sabbath needs to continue on for the Christian rather than being totally in toto fulfilled in Christ.

33:37

So I'm saying seventh day to person. Sounds like you're the 1689 and your position is saying seventh day to the person and also a new day.

33:49

Yes, yes. So are there any are there are there any any clues in Revelation one other than worship?

33:58

Because we don't disagree that John is worshiping on the Lord's day. Are there any clues to make us realize that there's a transfer from the

34:06

Sabbath, the seventh day to the first day? I'm just I don't know if there's any more clues to help me see that transfer.

34:15

So that question and a lot of kind of like the entirety of the full counsel of God, I'm saying that like the entire moral law, even though it's fulfilled in Christ, is still binding on us today not to go to heaven and keep these laws, but simply because to please the father.

34:32

And so that for commandment, if Christ were to do away with that commandment or as a feeling, it's like it's totally done away with the rest of the 10 commandments.

34:41

We've done away with it. OK, so let me answer a quick follow up here. So this is where I have

34:47

I've had actually a lot of conversations with this. Why are you being inconsistent and with the fourth commandment and not in the entirety of the 10 commandments?

34:56

So this is my immediate response to that. When you look at the whole counsel of God, the

35:02

New Testament repeats verbatim commandments one through three and six through 10 is repeated in the

35:09

New Testament for Christians, I would say. And you actually do have the Sabbath repeated in the

35:16

New Testament, but in a different light. I referenced this in my opening statement with Colossians 2 verses 14 and 15,

35:22

I believe, where Paul says not to let anybody hold you to a standard of judgment anymore, of holding these ceremonial type laws like festivals, new moons, certain foods.

35:34

And then he says Sabbaths because their substance is in Christ. So my argument, given

35:40

Paul and even things that Jesus said, is there is a caveat. When you look at that bird's eye view, whole counsel of God, you see a caveat on the fourth commandment.

35:50

So I don't know if you want to respond to that, and this might be a good time to kick it over to you to ask me questions.

35:56

Definitely. So in light of what you just said, I kind of I guess actually that question lets you try to answer it.

36:04

Oh, are you familiar kind of with New Covenant Theology by any chance? Yes, absolutely. How would you kind of define

36:10

New Covenant Theology? My understanding of New Covenant Theology is it tries to bridge the gap in some ways between classical covenant theology and dispensationalism.

36:21

So you might be able to help me with some nuances. But like I said, it tries to grab from both. And I think one major distinction that New Covenant Theology has with classic covenant theology is classic covenant theology has three major covenants, right?

36:34

The covenant of redemption, covenant of works, covenant of grace. New covenant theology doesn't really operate on that paradigm, but more of a promise and fulfillment paradigm.

36:46

And it maybe views the mosaic law slightly differently through that promise fulfillment paradigm.

36:53

But it does differ from classical covenant theology in some way.

36:59

But like I said, it tries to bridge the gap between covenant theology and dispensationalism. OK, so another key aspect of New Covenant Theology is like kind of how

37:09

I would, you know, many Reformed brothers, we kind of make that distinction between the three four lit of the law. Many of our

37:17

New Covenant brethren, they say that no longer are we even under the moral law. We're under the new covenant, the base of the moral law of Christ, the law of Christ.

37:25

So whatever Jesus Christ is in a New Testament, that's kind of the law that we're under now. Would you kind of adhere more to that or something different?

37:34

A little bit different. However, I want to say I affirm first Corinthians nine and I believe it's

37:39

Galatians six where we're under the law of Christ. And I want to say Romans 10, four says we're no longer under the law if we are in Christ.

37:50

So you have this dynamic where we want to affirm that we are under certain parts of the law and which is the law of Christ.

37:57

And then we're not under certain parts of the law. And I probably would lean more to a classical covenant perspective of saying, look, we're no longer under ceremonial and civil laws, but we are always so this is where my position, we're always under the moral law of God, which

38:13

I think is expressly reflected in the Decalogue with that caveat giving the whole counsel of God on the fourth commandment.

38:23

OK, so kind of with the answer you just said, you said they were under the full moral law.

38:30

How would you define, do you see any moral aspects behind the fourth commandment? Not in the same sense as the other commandments.

38:38

So like the what is it? The fifth commandment to honor your father and mother. This is the first commandment with the promise.

38:45

We see that repeated by the apostle Paul in Ephesians chapter six. You may can correct me on that, but the apostle

38:51

Paul repeats that verbatim. We don't see that repeat with the

38:58

Sabbath. We see it qualified in a new light, given what Jesus says in the Gospels, what the apostle

39:04

Paul says in many of his letters and the writer of Hebrews, which we might we may agree it might be

39:11

Paul, seems like all this was a Sabbath principle of rest that we're no longer to work in a spiritual sense for our salvation.

39:20

Not that the Jews of old did, but really Jesus is that Sabbath rest where we are trusting alone in him and not our works.

39:28

So like I said, that seemed to be done away with because a part of my earlier argument was the

39:36

Sabbath and all of its restrictions and punishments and observance for worship and whatnot was a sign for Israel.

39:46

So I would I would ask I should ask this earlier, but I would like clarity to know if you think that was for theocratic

39:52

Israel and the spiritual people of God or if it was something different. But we can get to that a little bit later.

39:59

Definitely, definitely. Now, a follow up question kind of in light of what you just said, how did

40:04

Moses get the Ten Commandments? You have me asking. He received it from Sinai, right?

40:10

Kind of Exodus 19, 20 ish. Right. Yes. Yes, I got it right.

40:20

So where did the Ten Commandments come from, you might be asking. The finger of God, right on written on two tablets.

40:28

Perfect, perfect. So if the Ten Commandments directly came from the finger of God, we're not talking about the ceremonial aspect of it, but simply the

40:36

Ten Commandments. What would you say the purpose of the Ten Commandments is? I would say at large, it's moral and reflects the unchanging character of God.

40:49

OK, OK, perfect answer. So in light of, again, what you just stated, if the

40:55

Ten Commandments directly came from the finger of God to reflect his character, wouldn't all ten of these laws reflect his character before we even get to the ceremonial aspect?

41:07

Yes. Unless Paul and something in the New Testament qualified one or all differently, which

41:15

I would say if Paul didn't say what he said in Colossians 2 and Jesus said what he said in Matthew 11 and some of these other passages,

41:23

I would be right there with you. I'm saying in light of these other passages, scriptures seems like the

41:29

Apostle Paul put a qualifier and Jesus put a qualifier on the fourth commandment. So in one sense, when you're in Christ, you have that perfect obedience, which

41:39

Jesus was under the law, which he was under the Sabbath principle, but he was also Lord. So he was able to exercise authority over it.

41:46

But when we're in Christ, we have that perfect righteousness imputed in our account. I know we agree on that.

41:52

But that's that's why I see the fourth commandment different is because of the whole council. So you kind of you kind of getting more of kind of what

42:02

Paul and kind of the New Testament kind of speaks about specifically Paul about the ceremonial aspect of the

42:08

Sabbath day. But I'm referring to the Ten Commandments that's written directly by God. And you kind of mentioned how all ten of these kind of reflect

42:15

God's character before we get to kind of like Exodus, the Exodus passage, you quote, where it says it's a sign before we get to that.

42:24

Moses received his commandments directly from God. And so I kind of see it's going to reflect his character in some way.

42:30

If I make I don't know if I'm making sense a little bit. Yeah, so to kind of to be clear,

42:35

I really think so from my from my position, cautions too is huge. So I'm staying in light of all of what the

42:44

Bible speaks. We see that even the fourth commandment that was written by the finger of God, that was more ceremonial than moral in right of the heart of the moral law of God.

42:58

So when I typically refer to the Ten Commandments, I'm basically referring to the moral law of God.

43:06

But when pressed on the Sabbath, I'm saying, yes, all of scripture speaks with more clarity to that fourth commandment as being more ceremonial in nature rather than moral like like the rest of the commandments.

43:19

And I'm saying that seems consistent. God can write that with his finger and it's still be more ceremonial than moral if it points to Christ.

43:30

OK, so what would you say the purpose of the side of day is, if you mind me asking time out for Christians or for Jews, what was the one of the purpose of the

43:39

Old Testament Sabbath? Yeah, so it was multifaceted and in Genesis, we don't see any commandments to worship on that day.

43:51

We see that it was simply a day of rest and God consecrated that and set it apart.

43:57

And I believe what he's talking about is he's setting a principle for man to realize that, yeah, we're to work like our creator, but we're also supposed to rest like our creator.

44:09

And it's actually fascinating because all cultural cultures worldwide, they're all on the seven day calendar.

44:16

And it's just it's just interesting because it reflects the biblical account. So, number one, God set aside the seventh day a week to represent rest and later with Moses.

44:26

That's where you start getting these these punishments connected to the Sabbath and Exodus brings out how it was a sign for Israel, the children of God.

44:38

And that's going to be important to this conversation, because I'm saying that's specifically for the

44:45

Jews, not Gentile Christians, you know, so many years later.

44:52

So would you say in light of, I guess, the context of Exodus 20, would it would you say it's kind of it was to remind

44:58

Israel of being brought of captivity? Let me think. I'm going to say yes, but yeah,

45:08

I could agree with that because they were let out of captivity and God gave them not only the

45:15

Ten Commandments, but 613 commandments in light of that. That's just the culmination of of all of the commandments.

45:23

If you if you obey the Ten Commandments, then you essentially were obedient to 613, even though some of these other commandments had more details, but it kind of fell under that overall category, overall arching category of the

45:37

Ten Commandments. OK, so would you which one would you say is like it's obviously a good question, but if I go right, you're going to laugh at it.

45:47

Which is a greater redemption, what Christ did on the cross or how

45:52

God brought the Jews out of Egypt? Jesus on the cross. OK, so with that, would you say kind of that it would be better for Christians to kind of,

46:02

I guess, remember this day as well, because how Israel was supposed to remember this day because of, you know, this is the

46:10

God that brought them out of captivity. Well, now this same God comes in the Testament and dies for sinners and raises on this day and we're supposed to remember this day as well.

46:19

So this is the day that it's always a reminder of the gospel in a sense. How would you kind of deal with that? Yeah, so this this is perfectly consistent with my position.

46:29

When we look at the Lord's Day, it's categorically better than the Jewish Sabbath that we read in the

46:35

Old Testament. I'm saying it's not a new Sabbath. It's a totally something better where it supersedes and is the culmination of what all the

46:44

Old Testament pointed to. So the Lord's Day can can just stand as that alone with having without having to say, oh, but it's it's a new

46:53

Sabbath to try to somehow maintain. Well, that Fourth Commandment said, remember this, you know, implying don't forget it.

47:01

And I'm saying, but if we have enough scripture to say that that was specifically for the Jews, if we have enough light from the from God's word to conclude that, then we can let the

47:12

Lord's Day stand as the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, rather than saying it's a new

47:18

Sabbath. OK, OK, so why do you why would you say,

47:23

I guess, today Christians say this day is the Lord's Day is a Sabbath day, I would you kind of what would you say?

47:30

Yeah, and that's a great question. And for one, I would say explicitly that's what we read from Revelation 110, that John is not talking about a new

47:40

Sabbath. We don't see that anywhere in the text. Rather, we see him use a cat, a brand new term that's not even used anywhere in scripture, but the

47:48

Lord's Day. So I'm saying let's let's stick with John's language, the language that he uses, and let's not drag in mosaic principles to apply to that day.

47:58

That's why some people are divided. Some people say, no, it's sinful and there should be consequences if you work on the first day of the week, the new

48:07

Christian Sabbath. And I'm saying you're dragging not and this is where you seem to be closer to me rather than 1689.

48:14

But I would say those people know the Lord's Day is meant to be a celebration of the resurrection of Christ, not a day to reimplement old mosaic principles.

48:23

And I would say if someone says, why do you see it like that? I would say because I'm where I can

48:31

I can actually read this now, because when Paul says, therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a

48:43

Sabbath, he is qualifying the Sabbath as being a ceremonial law.

48:50

This is why I like covenant theology in its threefold distinction of law. I'm saying look how

48:55

Paul is interpreting the Sabbath, not as solely a moral law like the nine other ten commandments, but he's qualifying it as a ceremonial law.

49:06

He says all of these are a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

49:13

I think that's the same argument the writer of Hebrews is making over and over and over again, saying these ceremonial laws are types of shadows.

49:20

So it seems like the Sabbath is a type and shadow that leads up to Christ. So what we see transpiring is the

49:28

Sabbath day being fulfilled and transferring to a person, not being transferred over into a new day.

49:37

Now, when I think about this, why do you think the people who we're talking about, because most of the church during this day in the

49:45

New Testament, it was predominantly Jewish as we started to see the gospel going forward to the Gentiles later on.

49:51

But even in Acts on four, why do you think these Jewish believers were gathering on the first day of the week instead of the typical

50:01

Jewish Sabbath day? Yes. So great question. I think the answer is rather obvious that the apostles and new church

50:12

Christians were gathering together the first day of the week because the first day of the week was the day that Jesus resurrected from the dead.

50:22

So that's why I like to stick with the term. That's the Lord's day. That's a representative day in which he resurrected.

50:29

And our whole our whole faith in Christianity hinges on the resurrection,

50:35

Paul makes that case. First Corinthians 15. And so with that being so categorically different than the

50:41

Sabbath, that's why I think it's important when we look in passages like Acts 17 and elsewhere where we see the

50:47

Sabbath being brought up in a Christian context, I say Christian context acts is, you know, basically the acts of the

50:54

Holy Spirit through the apostles in these contexts and a Christian context.

50:59

We see Sabbath still being qualified in a Jewish understanding, a seventh day of the week, because the

51:07

Jews were still gathering in synagogues. It's unthinkable for Jews to be referring to the

51:13

Sabbath as a, you know, the first day of the week. Right. So that's why I'm saying if we're committed to these principles of exegesis and using biblical categories,

51:25

I'd say let's just use the Lord's day. Don't don't call it a the new

51:30

Christian Sabbath, even if we talk about principles and we're really close, you know, if we could just land on biblical language like the

51:37

Lord's day, then that's where I feel most comfortable. And when we get into implicit doctrines and implicit teachings,

51:45

I'm OK with that. Like you said, just because something is not verbatim found like Trinity, it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

51:52

And if Christian Sabbath is so defined to mean the Lord's day and it's categorically different and what's the

52:00

Sabbath according to the Bible and at large like ninety nine point nine. Actually, biblically, we would agree that that means the seventh day of the week.

52:08

But if we want to talk about it in principle, being the first day of the week, you're probably going to get me to agree at large.

52:14

But if we're making a biblical case every single time I read Sabbath in the New Testament, it's it's baseline understanding is the seventh day of the week.

52:22

And we do see it's a type and shadow leading to the person of Christ. What do you think? Good answer, man.

52:30

Good answer. I guess a couple of follow up questions, man, before we do our closing statements.

52:36

Good question. I want to ask is, do you think it is moral at all for God to kind of demand worship from his creatures?

52:45

Oh, absolutely. It's you know, God can do with his creation whatever he wants.

52:51

And so obviously we are called to worship in spirit and truth.

52:56

And if God wanted explicitly for Christians after the law of fulfillment to say, and by the way, gather on the first day of the week.

53:05

And if you don't, it's sinful. If I saw that being explicitly taught, well, then

53:10

I would tell people you have to obey that God is free to do that. But I see a different case being made for Christians that live in light of the law's fulfillment and the

53:22

Sabbath's fulfillment. We gather on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week as a celebration, not as a day to pull in these mosaic principles.

53:32

OK, but as you would say that it is moral for God to kind of set apart a day for worship for himself, for his creatures, kind of worship him.

53:41

Yes, he can do that. And that's where 1 Corinthians, Romans 14 talks about this is a actually an issue of the conscience.

53:50

If you do have a Jew struggling to let go of the Sabbath in the true sense of the seventh day of the week, then you're not to try to get him to go against his conscience.

54:01

If he is worshipping on the seventh day of the week, you know, to glorify the Lord and Christ, then, you know, he pretty much makes

54:08

Paul makes the case there. Leave him alone because some and then you got some people that see every day is the same.

54:14

Now, I agree with you earlier. If you're a part of a local body and you're neglecting that, that gathering, then that's sinful.

54:23

But if that body, for whatever reason, culturally was meeting on a Saturday night or a

54:28

Monday morning and it wasn't landing on Sunday, I would say that's not sinful, but I'm in favor of following the apostolic example.

54:38

But I wouldn't make a law where I don't see a law expressly caught. OK, OK, but just for clarity, is it possible that there is a chance that the

54:49

Sabbath day could have a moral aspect behind it, just like the rest of the other nine commandments? I actually agree that there's a moral aspect.

54:58

I think the moral aspect comes into Christ fulfilling that and actually obeying the

55:04

Sabbath the way that it was intended to. So if you ask it, is it possible for a

55:11

Christian to observe this is where if I misrepresent you, let me know if you're saying is it possible that God is commanding

55:17

Christians to worship on the first day of the week the way that he was commanding Jews to worship on the seventh day of the week?

55:25

On one hand, I just I want to say, yes, it's possible, but I just see

55:30

I don't see that parallel being made in scripture. Not necessarily that, but more than that, when we speak of the other nine commandments like lying, adultery, murder, adultery, all these things.

55:43

We know that like Paul tells us Romans two, how the law of man, not the law of God is written on our hearts.

55:49

And Jesus says the whole law, which is to think commandments can be summarized in two things. Love cut all your heart to the mind, but also love your neighbors yourself.

55:57

And so the first four commandments deal with how we love God and the other six with how we love our neighbors. And so this is true.

56:04

But that means there's some sort of moral aspect behind a Sabbath. And I was asking, is it possible that the moral aspect could simply be

56:12

God setting apart a day to how he requires to be worshiped from his creatures, that creator creature distinction?

56:18

Is it possible that that's a moral that God could demand worship? I like how you snuck in the creator creation distinction there.

56:25

I like that. But this kind of does cycle back to our whole conversation. God is God is free to make that a moral command the way that you're saying.

56:35

But where we're differing is when we appeal to the whole counsel of God. I'm saying

56:41

Jesus and Paul and the writer of Hebrews qualifies that fourth commandment in a way that distinguishes the fourth commandment from the first three and six through 10.

56:54

It seems like that even written by the finger of God seems to be more ceremonial and any moral component that was attached to that was intended for the

57:04

Jews and Jesus fulfilling that. And it would not be binding on Christians today.

57:12

And so I would say it's moral, but it's a qualified moral law that's mainly for the

57:18

Jews. The same way that you got to think, you know, I think the Westminster divines would agree with me.

57:24

Even though we see a threefold distinction in the law, the Jews did not see a threefold distinction.

57:29

And it's right because to disobey one of those commandments was moral and it was also civil and it was also ceremonial.

57:37

There's no distinction. It was all those three basically through and through. But we're able to see distinctions within these categories.

57:46

And so when I say, yes, it's moral, I am saying it's different for Christians today.

57:54

Does that kind of make sense? I want to say that it's more ceremonial than moral.

58:00

But sure, there is a could be a moral component to it, but it could be different than the rest of the committees.

58:07

Just my last question, and I'll let you kind of answer it and kind of go into your closing statement. So if in my mind,

58:13

I think of the Ten Commandments all being more reflecting God's character, how would you would you say the four commandment reflects

58:19

God's character anyway? And if so, can you kind of kind of define it for the audience? I would say it reflects the fact that God rested on the seventh day.

58:29

I think it reflects the sign that's given to the

58:34

Jews, essentially. I think it really brings out that even God determined to rest.

58:41

So we see that salvation is important in the understanding of resting in the

58:49

Savior. So all of those are moral and spiritual principles bound up in the

58:55

Sabbath. But this is one of those very interesting verses where we got to be careful to let the whole council of God speak.

59:03

And I think we're super close to being on the same page. So one way to illustrate it, someone said,

59:10

Jeremiah, according to the Bible, which day is the Sabbath? I would say the seventh day.

59:17

And they said, what about for Christians? I would say it's still the seventh day. And that's where I think you would come in and say, oh, it's the first day for Christians.

59:25

Yes, yes, but all my questions, man, I let you go ahead and do a close statement and I do mine as well.

59:32

Sweet. And if you don't mind, just give me a heads up at the last minute or so. But yeah, thank you, KJ, for talking with me about the

59:39

Sabbath. It's a good question. And I think if you qualify anything enough, you can find a lot of common ground.

59:46

And so, you know, on one hand, if someone says, does it seem like gathering together on Sunday has so many similar similarities that the

59:56

Jews had for worshiping and setting aside the seventh day? I would say absolutely. There's so many similar principles.

01:00:04

But exegetically, when we look to Acts, we see Sabbath is always in the seventh day setting because it's connected with Jewish worship when they came to the synagogue.

01:00:16

And so we see how Christians meet together. Sabbath is in no way connected to that, but it's the first day of the week.

01:00:22

And I actually like you going to Revelation 1 10, because John calls that the Lord's day.

01:00:28

There's a really good opportunity for him to say the Christian Sabbath is the Lord's day. And he doesn't do that.

01:00:34

And it seems like Paul in Colossians 2 tells us that the Sabbath was ceremonial in nature.

01:00:42

Can we find moral aspects to it? Absolutely. And it was types of shadows leading to the

01:00:47

Savior Jesus. So I think when it when it gets down to it, my big issues with the new

01:00:55

Christian Sabbath being Sunday comes down to this. And me and KJ actually strongly agree on this is,

01:01:01

OK, if we're going to grant that the Sabbath is the first day of the week, well, are there any punishments related to this type of sin?

01:01:09

And where is your reference point going to be if it is the first day of the week? Well, you have to go to the

01:01:15

Old Testament and to break the Sabbath. So it's punishable by death. And I appreciate a lot of reform guys making distinctions, threefold distinction with the law.

01:01:26

But even theonomists, you know, they not that KJ is contending to be a theonomist, but they would contend for we should be voting for theocratic civil laws being for today.

01:01:37

And I think that's dangerous on one hand, because if you break the

01:01:42

Sabbath, which for, you know, a reformed 69 being the first day of the week, well, then what's your reference point for church discipline if somebody is is breaking the

01:01:54

Sabbath? Well, if you're going to the Old Testament for that reference point, well, it's punishable by death.

01:02:01

And so I think a lot of people want to stay away from that. And rightly so, because it's so obvious that the

01:02:07

Lord's Day is categorically different than what the Jews had of old. So when it comes to the major issues and the problems

01:02:15

I have with saying the Sabbath for the Christians first day of the week, me and KJ on the same page, you know, I think and personally,

01:02:21

I think he's closer to me than the 69 on that. That's OK. But it really comes down to how do you deal with punishment and church discipline if you break, in quotes, the new

01:02:31

Christian Sabbath? So I think the major takeaway, no matter where somebody is on this issue, whether they're kind of my side of saying the

01:02:41

Lord's Day is the Lord's Day and it's not the new Christian Sabbath or, you know, 69 and KJ's position saying that, you know, that's kind of one of the same, is understanding that the

01:02:50

Sabbath found its fulfillment in Christ. I think just listening to me and KJ, we contend consistently for that.

01:02:59

The Apostle Paul says the substance of this was Christ. Jesus himself says, come to me, all you who labor and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

01:03:08

And all of God's people found the Sabbath rest in Christ.

01:03:14

And that's kind of the argument that the writer of Hebrews is making. So once again, we some of these are semantical differences.

01:03:22

I agree that the Decalogue is moral with the caveat of the

01:03:27

Fourth Commandment, given the whole counsel of God. So, like I said, we're super close.

01:03:33

And when you really get down to brass tacks, we're almost on the same page with the subtle nuances.

01:03:38

And just to kind of recap and short again, the major difference is how someone answers the question, what is the

01:03:44

Sabbath for the Christian today? I would say, well, the Sabbath is for the Jews and was for the seventh day of the week.

01:03:51

Christians were called to gather together. And that seems to the pattern seems to happen on the first day of the week.

01:03:57

And I agree with KJ, John called that the Lord's Day. So we're so close and there's just nuanced differences.

01:04:05

So thank you, KJ. No problem, man. I guess

01:04:10

I'll do my closing remarks. I start by saying, definitely, like I said, definitely enjoyed our time talking about this.

01:04:17

Hopefully this may encourage other people as they listen to this kind of again, how people are able to have differences within the body, but still be united in the gospel.

01:04:26

And so that's the number one thing. But I'll start off by saying for myself and many of our friends, brethren,

01:04:32

I see like the Sabbath day, which is the Fourth Amendment fitting in alongside the

01:04:37

Decalogue. I talked about how there's a threefold split within a lot of the civil and the ceremonial.

01:04:43

Well, Christ has fulfilled all three aspects of the law, the moral, the civil and the ceremonial, but the moral is still binding today because it reflects who

01:04:53

God is. God cannot take away who he is in essence. And so the law, Paul tells us, reflects who he is, which is holy.

01:05:01

And so the moral aspect of that law can still be broken today because the moral law is still binding today.

01:05:08

And so even when we're sharing the gospel, as we're sharing the gospel, we're using the law, it's getting to the conscience of a person.

01:05:15

But that's why Paul says the law is written on our hearts, because there's a moral aspect of this

01:05:20

Ten Commandments because it gets to the conscience of a person. And so I guess the hard part is trying to figure out how this law, you know, how do we kind of figure out what the moral aspect is?

01:05:30

And again, I define it simply that God is moral by saying that he desires a day set apart for us to worship him against a creature created distinction.

01:05:39

All worship is belonging to him and him alone, not to us. And so it's more for God to allow this because, again, he is

01:05:45

God deserving of all praise. So let there glory, all glory to God alone. Now, the difference, again, kind of what made me and Jeremiah differ is

01:05:55

I am more aggrieved with the eight and nine. Of course, there's a difference between how people view this. But again, my position is simply that the

01:06:03

Christian Sabbath, the Lord's Day, that is a Sabbath day that the Bible is talking about.

01:06:08

And it was change. Now, the hard part, you know, when I say change, what I mean, because there's no verses in the Bible that says, you know, the

01:06:15

Sabbath was changed. Well, in light of the full counsel of God, Jeremiah said, ultimately, like all commandments, they're all fulfilled in Christ.

01:06:23

And so ultimately, the Sabbath day, it finds its true fulfillment in Christ. And so when believers are now resting in Christ, they are fulfilling that command because there are true rest is found in Christ.

01:06:35

But kind of how Jeremiah talked about, well, let's say, for example, I'm picking up sticks outside on Sunday or I'm on my grass on Sunday.

01:06:42

Am I breaking the law? Well, the answer is no, because a civil and a ceremonial aspect has been done away with.

01:06:49

But the moral aspect in light of the New Testament, what does the Bible tell us about the Lord's Day? Well, Hebrews 10 tell us that we should not forsake the assembly of the saints.

01:06:58

And so the sin for me, what I see in scripture is if someone is doing something, I guess, habitual, literally forsaking the saints on Sunday, the

01:07:07

Lord's Day, that would be considered sin to me. But I know some other brethren will say, let's do everything on Saturday.

01:07:13

That way on Sunday, we can just fully devote ourselves to the Lord's Day and not have to worry about anything.

01:07:19

So we simply rest on that day and devote ourselves to him. But I mean, out of him again, like I said, if you have a job, you may be working a job for a season that may take you away from church, but that job should only be temporary.

01:07:32

You shouldn't have a job full term because I believe it's sin to totally neglect God's people and gather together on Sunday.

01:07:39

And so it's kind of how I see this again. The Revelation 110 passage, you see what

01:07:44

John is saying there, the whole entire New Testament church, you look at church history, you see kind of how even the

01:07:51

Jews themselves, they were forsaking the traditional Jewish Sabbath and they were themselves saying that now this

01:07:58

Christian Sabbath, this Sunday, this is the new Sabbath now. The eighth day, as Augustine would say and Barnabas would say, they were all saying that this

01:08:05

Christian Sabbath, the day that Jesus rose, this is the Sabbath day. And so it's kind of my opinion, man, given the last closing days, man, we got here.

01:08:14

Man, I just I appreciate your your love and example and how to discuss hard issues that are kind of nuanced and complex because we keep appealing to the whole counsel of God.

01:08:26

This is one of those issues where I think you got cults out there and I'm comfortable saying the

01:08:33

Seventh -day Adventists, just because they add revelation to the word of God and things like that, they will make simple, simplistic arguments saying, see, the fourth commandment says, remember, and you're over here trying to forget it.

01:08:45

And it's like, man, we got to look to the whole counsel of God to make a conclusion on this issue.

01:08:51

So something that I appreciate that you've done and definitely the people that put together the 1689 is it's well thought through.

01:08:58

It has considered the whole counsel of God. And even if we come away with a subtle, small disagreement, it's very small in light of the major issues like the gospel.

01:09:10

So I just appreciate being able to have these type of friendly debates. Sometimes people think debates are bad word debates.

01:09:16

Good. You get a chance to share your thoughts and opinions in a structured fashion like we did.

01:09:22

So that's a good thing. So I'm glad we were able to do this, KJ. Definitely, again, be on the lookout for Jeremiah debates again,

01:09:31

I think it's May, right? What's the dates for the. So if it changes, we'll definitely update the audience.

01:09:37

But as of now, I believe it's May 17th and it'll be recorded. So even if people aren't able to join live on YouTube, it'll be at the gospel truth on the

01:09:49

YouTube channel, the gospel truth. But it'll be recorded and we'll be able to definitely send it to people if they're curious.

01:09:56

Definitely be on the lookout for me and Jeremiah again to continue up the revelation and six and nine series will be dealing with that.

01:10:04

I believe Jeremiah will also be posting some different series throughout the week as well. You want to talk about that?

01:10:10

You can. Yeah. So I want to I really want to help with KJ on producing more content because it seems like there's a growing audience here.

01:10:20

And I'm able to teach at twelve five church weekly and we're doing different series and things like that.

01:10:25

So some of those are short and sweet, 15 minutes long. And I'd love to post some of those teachings just to kind of help with devotions and good principles from the word of God to think about.

01:10:36

And I also want to help in the future. I want to be able to engage unbelievers on college campus.

01:10:43

So here in Jonesboro, we have a issue. And so I'd love to be able to interview students very similar to guys like Ray Comfort and Todd Thriel of how to contend for the faith and to lovingly share the gospel with people that have different worldview perspectives.

01:10:59

My KJ's view and understanding is that it's the gospel that can transform the life of an individual.

01:11:07

And so people need to hear the gospel. We want this podcast, Why Theology, to just be a voice in this dark world of what it looks like to contend for the truth ultimately there.

01:11:19

Definitely, definitely. And then me and him definitely probably be making some episodes. He'll probably lead it. I'll be listening to pre -depositional apologetics.

01:11:27

He's a nice very much. And I'm just now learning about this. So I feel like I'm insane all over again.

01:11:32

But being a look out man, we definitely enjoy you guys listen to us and we'll be getting out of here y 'all.