Questions & Answers with Justin Peters and Andrew Rappaport

Q&A From the Snatch Them From the Flames Home Edition

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Today on The Wrap Report, what we have for you is the Q &A, the questions and answers from the Snatch Them From the Flames Home Edition. Justin Peters and myself will answer many questions for you that came in during the Home Edition of Snatch Them From the Flames.

If you want to watch the full thing, just go to strivingforeternity .org. Go to the online events. Seven plus hours of teaching and training that you can get free of charge. If you'd like to have us come to your church and have one of these events, feel free to reach out to us.

We'll be happy to come. But today on The Wrap Report, we will answer many of the questions that came up. And this will be very informative and helpful for you now on The Wrap Report. One, two, three.

Welcome to The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

False Teachers, Bethel Music, and the Dangers of Supporting Cults

Let's see. We have a lot of questions here, Justin. And Anthony was supposed to be here to help answer them, but I think he, I know he was with his family, his sister-in-law. So let's see if we can get through as many as we can, which means shorter answers.

Can Justin Peters handle shorter answers? I think so. We'll find out. I think I can. All right. Well, let's do that. And all right, so I have the list of questions here and they're marked with which ones we might want to, we might want to make sure we answer, which ones we think we've already answered, but I'm going to just bounce around.

We'll start with under the category of false teachers. I should have looked how many. I'll ask our specialist behind the scenes who doesn't want to be named to text me the number of categories that we have, and I'll just kind of break these up.

But we'll start with false teachers. So here's the first question. This one, we can alternate back and forth on who starts to answer if there is one, but this one will be one for you and I'll just leave it to you.

Will you address the dangers of Bethel-Hillsong evolution, elevation music?

Yes, there's a lot of dangers. Bethel, Hillsong, and Elevation all come from false churches. Bethel, of course, pastored by Bill Johnson and Bethel Music, Hillsong, Brian Houston in Sydney, Australia, Elevation, Stephen Furtick in North Carolina.

These are false churches. None of them are led by biblically qualified men. Hillsong and Elevation especially are word of faith, New Apostolic Reformation. Bethel is arguably the worst of them doctrinally.

Here's the danger of singing their music in church. Even though some of their songs would pass a doctrinal smell test, and some of them would, not all of them, but some of them would. When you put the words up on the screen on Sunday morning and people sing those songs, A, it's hard to obey Romans 16, 17, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and stay away from them.

I mean, that is a clear command and imperative in scripture that we are to mark false teachers and stay away from them, have nothing to do with them. It's hard to obey that and sing their music in your church.

You can't do both. So that's the first thing. The other thing is when you put the lyrics up on the screen and the unsuspecting person sitting in the pew is reading the lyrics and they see in the fine print down at the bottom, music by Hillsong or music by Bethel.

They're thinking, oh, Hillsong, Bethel, they must be okay, we're singing their music, I think I'll check them out. This is one of their primary tools of their own twisted version of evangelism. They use their music as a hook to pull you into their false theology, to pull you into indeed their cult.

And that's exactly what it is. In fact, I have video of Bill Johnson and he actually says we use our music to broaden our brand, to promote our brand. And so that's another danger. And the other danger, the third danger is that according to the CCLI licensing guidelines, every time you sing a song that is copyrighted or licensed or whatever, according to the CCLI guidelines, you're supposed to send some money to whoever produced that piece of music.

And if a church is doing what it is supposed to be doing, every single time they sing one of these songs, they're supposed to be sending in a little bit of money to whoever wrote and produced this music.

And so when you sing Bethel, when you sing Hillsong or Elevation, if your church is doing what it ought to be doing, required to do by law, then you're sending money to a cult. You're sending money to a cult.

Are you comfortable with that? I'm sure not. I would not support a cult. So yeah, there's a lot of dangers to this. And there's just no excuse. There's no case that you can make to allow for singing Bethel, Hillsong or Elevation.

You can't make it biblically. You can't make it logically. There's just no case to be made, even though some of the music would pass a doctrinal smell test. And I've given this illustration before. Let's just say Planned Parenthood, for whatever reason, decided to write some Christian music just to promote their brand, broaden their tent.

Obviously they would never do it, but let's just say they did for whatever reason. So Planned Parenthood gets some musically inclined people that work in their organization, and they sit down and they write some Christian songs and Christian lyrics.

And you know what? Let's say the lyrics are okay. So would you sing that in your church? Would you sing those songs, even if the lyrics are good and the music is good, and you saw in the fine print music by Planned Parenthood, would you sing that in your church?

Of course you wouldn't. Not a single evangelical church, I would hope, would do that. So let me ask you this. Why would you sing music that's coming from a cult? Planned Parenthood is lost. They're lost people.

Lost people do what lost people do. Bethel and Hillsong and Elevation claim to be Christians. So why would you not send money to Planned Parenthood, but you would send money to cults who blaspheme God, offer false prophecies, preach a different Jesus in a different gospel, and lead millions of people to an eternity in hell all under the name of Christ?

Why would you send money to that? And you wouldn't do it to Planned Parenthood? Yep. That's a good point. If you're gonna give long answers, then we're not getting through all these. Sorry. That's a big question, and that's a huge.

It's one that comes up often. I knew we wanted to get that addressed. Here's another one that I think several people were asking, but so isn't the day of prophets over? Does God still use prophets? Then another person said, if there's such a thing as false prophets, isn't it possible to say then there are true prophets today?

Your turn. Oh, that's right. I'm supposed to start first. Okay. Yeah, I do think that the prophets are over. I think that, and this may be a different question. I think I saw people, how do you define prophecy?

And when we define prophecy, there is the forth telling and the foretelling. So some of it is telling the future, but a lot of people refer to prophecy as just what happens on Sunday when people are preaching.

And so when people have defined it that way, then yes, there would be prophets today in that sense, people prophesying, I'll say, in that sense. But I think the prophets were a specific group of people.

We don't see all people that were preaching in synagogues called prophets. They were, even if they were doing that. So I don't think that it's a legitimate argument to say just because someone's preaching, they're a prophet.

I think that the prophets that we see in the scriptures are done. They were around for the purpose of bringing God's judgment. I'm gonna say that we had prophets in the Old Testament. I think we had apostles in the New.

And so you see people that were prophesying, but I don't think you see people in that position of prophet. And so I would say that, yes, they're gone. And by calling someone a false prophet today is not to say there's true prophets today.

I would just say that you're calling them a false prophet because they claim to be a prophet and they're prophesying things that don't come to pass, making them a false prophet by their definition. By mine, I would say they're a false teacher, but they're claiming they're a prophet.

So if they are, then they're a false one because they should be stoned according to, was it Deuteronomy 18?

You have anything you wanna add to that or? Yeah, no, that was a good answer. No, just to say there are false prophets does not logically necessitate that there are real prophets today. There were real prophets, but there are not now.

So anyone that claims to be one today is making a false claim.

So here's one for you, Justin. Do you know any prominent false teachers, false prophets slash teachers who have repented and come to faith?

No, I don't know of any prominent ones. I know there's been tons, maybe millions of people that God has saved out of this deception, but they're just lay people, if you will, to use that term. I don't know of any big names that have ever repented.

Probably the closest that would come to that would be Kosti Hinn, and he was not a big name. He worked for a big name who, Benny Hinn as well, but he was a catcher for his uncle in this miracle crusades, would catch people as they were slain in the spirit and that kind of stuff.

He has definitely repented and come out of that and teaching strongly against it now. But as far as like a Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen or one of these names that you would know, I'm not aware of any.

But wait, wait, wait, wait. Benny Hinn came out and said he repented. You and I did a video on this and a podcast on this. He repented, didn't he?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, his so-called repentance, he just dug his hole deeper because he actually said in his quote unquote repentance, he was asked about it, he said that he no longer believes that some of the things, that he used to teach about prosperity.

Well, the problem is, is the things that he no longer believes, he didn't just teach because he believed them, he taught them because he claims that God told him to teach them. So he actually outed himself as a false prophet.

Then to add insult to injury, he said that, he said, I don't know why God waited so long to reveal this to me. Well, no, you just threw God under the bus. Don't blame God for your sin. That is, I mean, that's repentance 101.

If you're blaming God for your sin, you haven't repented. Coming out and saying I was wrong about a few things, that's not repentance. If Benny Hinn was truly repentant, he would empty his ministry coffers, liquidate everything his ministry has, give every red scent of it to doctrinally sound ministries and or churches, shut his ministry down because he would realize that he is not qualified to be in the pulpit.

He would come out and admit to people that he's been lying to them for 40 plus years, doing false signs, false wonders. He's a false prophet. He would own up to all of that, shut his ministry down, join a good doctrinally sound church, sit in the pew and learn.

That's what I would say that if he truly repented, he would call his nephew Benny, his nephew Cosby and apologize.

That's right. That's another aspect of it, yep. Sure would.

So another question that we got here is, what is the defining line between heretic and false teacher? So I would say that the difference there is that a heretic is a false teacher, but where I'm gonna make the dividing line is that a heretic teaches something that would damn people to hell.

They cannot get saved with that teaching. A false teacher may just teach falsely, unknowingly. And in one sense, there's a lot of false teachers that unknowingly would that you could say is a false teacher because they're unknowingly teach falsehood.

However, I'm gonna make a distinction there and say that I think a false teacher is someone who they're knowledgeable that they're teaching falsehood. We just on Apologetics Live this week we're dealing with a pastor who, if he could say he's a pastor, because if you listen to the last three Apologetics Lives, we dealt with dangerous doctrines of this one church.

And I don't if these things are true, you can't call him pastor. But he, the thing that was said was supposedly one of the deacons said that who had come out of this church said that he acknowledged that if he was to change his views on the teachings.

Oh, look, there's the little rat right there. There he is. Look at it, look at it. Folks, you see that.

You see that it's a little rat that he has. It's a her. Don't, don't, don't confuse my dog. She's, she's not confused about her orientation. Hey, Mia.

But I think He's walking out now. Yeah, I upset her. I'm sorry. Of course, all the comments online are, everyone's going to be like, oh, look at the dog. How nice. Andrew's such a meanie. It's okay.

Dog didn't want to come up to me and be nice to me. See, Mia's back. See? Sitting down. Waiting, waiting to sit on your lap. Waiting for your repentance. I'm sorry, Mia. Please forgive me. You look like a little rat.

Now she turned her back on me. So, so I think, I think the thing you end up seeing is that you have people that, you know, like this guy who could say, if I was to change the teachings that I teach, I would be disqualified.

So he doubles down. That's known. That's someone who is, he's teaching something that he knows is false. That would be a false teacher. But the things he's teaching don't condemn people to hell. In other words, he's still preaching the gospel.

The heretic, I would say, doesn't preach the gospel. Yeah.

And I might just add just quickly that all heresy is error, but not all error is heresy. Correct. Okay. You know, just as a brief illustration, who wrote the book of Hebrews? Some say Paul, some say Barnabas, some say Luke.

It can't all be right. You know, if someone teaches that Barnabas wrote Hebrews when maybe Luke wrote it or something like that, you know, that's, that would be error. Or eschatology, amillennial, postmillennial, premillennial.

All three of those positions, by definition, cannot be right. So, but none of those positions is heresy in and of themselves. I am premillennial. I think I'm right. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be premillennial.

But even if I get to heaven one day and I realize, oh, wow, all millennialists were right, which I don't think they, but anyway, you know, that's not heresy. Okay, so at least two of the three eschatological positions are in error, but none of them are heresy, okay?

Matt Chandler, Jackie Hill Perry, and Woke Drift

All right, so here's a question for you. And several people asked, you brought up Matt Chandler and several people asked in different ways, Matt Chandler used to be reformed. What happened? What happened to Matt Chandler?

Could someone tell me what doctrinal status is of Matt Chandler? What should we do with Matt Chandler? Should we listen to his sermons or what do we do with his Bible studies? And then Matt Chandler and Jackie Hill Perry were in American gospel, refuting the word of faith.

Have they apostatized? Do you know an update on Matt Chandler and Jackie Hill Perry? So we'll throw that out as one question for you. It's a long one.

Yeah, well, as far as I know, Matt Chandler still claims to be reformed in his soteriology and his doctrine of salvation. But yes, they were, but they would both be charismatic. Matt Chandler and Jackie Hill Perry both be charismatic.

They're both very, very much committed to the social justice movement. So yeah, but of course that documentary was filmed. People need to remember that documentary was filmed. Those interviews were filmed several years ago.

In fact, watch me in the documentary. You can see I look a lot younger back then than I do now. So those interviews were done before any of the social justice stuff even came up. So yeah, there's a lot of water under the bridge since then.

Yeah, and that's on for folks to remember. And really what it is is Matt Chandler's become woke. And for folks who know what that is, that's where he's at. All right, so next question. Let's move into charismatic healing prophecy questions.

Cessationism, Tongues, and the Leading of the Holy Spirit

Justin, Andrew, do you consider yourself to be sensationist? So we both have to answer this one. And then, well, we'll answer that one quickly. I'll let you go first and then I'll.

Yes, I am a cessationist. I believe that the sign gifts, the apostolic gifts have ceased. They are no longer in operation today. I do not believe that there are modern day apostles. I do not believe there are modern day prophets.

I do not believe that anyone has the gift of healing today. Though I do believe God still heals people, but only when it is his sovereign will to do so. But that is not the same thing as saying that someone today possesses the gift of healing.

That I reject. Very much affirm the other more normative gifts, gift of teaching, gift of mercy, gift of ministration, gift of exhortation, gift of giving, gift of hospitality. Those gifts very much in operation in the church today.

Gift of healing, no, it's just not. And you know what? I've been all over the world. I've preached in 27 different countries. I've been in churches all over the planet, hundreds of them. I've never seen anybody with a gift of healing, not one.

Well, I would always question anyone that says they have the gift of healing and there's a hospital near them. Go to St. Jude, yeah. Yeah, and you and I share the same position there. The next question I'll start with and see if you are gonna disagree with me because I think you might.

Can you explain how you've come to the conclusion that tongues have ceased? So my position, and I think this is one of the rare areas that Justin and I disagree. I'm gonna look at 1 Corinthians 13. As we look at that passage, and let me bring that up just so that we have it.

And we look at verse eight. It's going to say, love never ends for where there are prophecies, they will pass away. As for tongues, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face, I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I'm fully known.

Now, my position is gonna be this. The tongues, it's very interesting there in the Greek, prophecies will pass, knowledge will pass away. The pass away there is different in the Greek than when it says tongues will cease.

So in other words, the prophecies will pass away because something brings that about where the tongues cease on their own. So I believe that people were given a gift of speaking in tongues. They were given prophecies at a time.

So the question becomes, what is the perfect? I take that to be the canon of Scripture when the canon was completed, which is fitting exactly with the context there, something that comes to completion.

When the canon was completed, there was no more need for the prophecies. When the canon was completed, the prophecies stopped because the canon was completed, but the tongues could continue because people still had that gift until they died.

So that would cease on its own. What I see then in verse 11 and 12 are three illustrations illustrating that word perfect, which we think of it perfect, but the word teleos means mature, complete, or perfect.

So it's something that becomes completed or becomes perfect. So it's something that was partial to complete, which is what you see with the illustration of a child to manhood, seeing in a mirror dimly, which is not a mirror like we have.

It's looking in polished metal versus seeing someone face-to-face. And face-to-face does not mean you have to see Christ. The same structure is used in Hebrew in Proverbs to refer to looking in water and seeing a reflection compared to seeing dimly in a mirror.

You see clearer in a body in clear water. So, and then knowing partially versus knowing in whole. Those are three illustrations. They're not literal. They're illustrations of something that's partial to completion.

And so I would say that once the canon of scripture was completed, there was no more need for the gifts. And therefore God put a stop to, when people got saved, he gives them gifts. Well, he stopped giving that gift.

The prophecy stopped because he stopped giving prophecy because the scripture was complete. The gifts ended as those people.

That already had it died out. Yep. Yep, and yeah, and I don't disagree with that. I just, I kind of bounce back and forth on what exactly the perfect is. There's three different views of it. It could be the canon of scripture.

It could also be the individual, the eternal state of the individual believer. And what gives me pause with that is verse 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face seems to point to the individual state, the eternal state of the individual believer.

But whichever way you go with it, this is another one of those things. This is not a point of heresy or anything. You and I both agree that the apostolic gifts, the signed gifts have ceased.

We're both cessationists. Correct, and the point that I ended up making with this, and I've debated Matt Slick on this. He believes the gifts continue. We've debated it several times and we come down to this.

And the issue is my position would be that I don't see where face to face suddenly becomes literal in the middle of several illustrations. I think it's more consistent to see them as all illustrations.

The comparison is looking in polished metal versus looking at someone face to face. So I don't think it needs to be, just because it says face to face, we have to actually see somebody. And that's why I go to the Proverbs passage where it does have the same phrase in the subteragin, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew, of face to face.

But it's clearly referring to water, looking versus polished metal versus looking in water. So it's water, it's face reflects face is how that gets translated. And that's what I think. I think if they translated face reflects face, we wouldn't have the issue with that.

Everyone would agree with me. Yes. Okay. We got several here that are from you because they're from your first session. So let me read, there's three of them here. I'll read them. Rachel said, so at least she said, it may have been wordsmith to shorten, but Rachel said, so you, so I know that you do not audibly hear the voice of God unless we speak our Bibles out loud, exclamation point.

Good call, Rachel. But can we be led by the spirit? And then Pam asks, if we hear the voice of God for the reason of salvation, how do we hear that voice? How do you hear that voice? And then Jen said, may I ask what you think about people saying, quote, prompting of the Holy Spirit?

So all those have to deal with a similar thing. Okay.

Okay, so the voice of salvation, the John 10, 27, my sheep hear my voice, that is not a literal audible voice because I mean, my sheep, we're sheep, right? Jesus is in heaven. He's at the right hand of the father.

So we're not hearing his audible voice. He's in heaven. So that's clearly a symbolic. This is the effectual call. This is when the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment, convicts us that we are a sinner, convicts us of our lost state, convicts us of the truth of the gospel, the need for the gospel, grants us repentance and faith in Christ.

And we go to the shepherd, just like, I mean, we go to the shepherd symbolically. We don't literally see Jesus standing out in a field and we walk up to him. That's not conversion. We go to the shepherd.

We rest in Christ for our salvation. So that's what that is talking about. It's not talking about a literal audible voice that you could record on a, you know, whatever, tape recorder. I don't get people to use tape recorders anymore, but so that's that.

Let's see, the other one was being led by the spirit. Yes, Christians are led by the spirit, but it is not a mystical kind of leading. One of the primary roles of the Holy Spirit in the lives of us as believers, as I was teaching, is that he indwells us, third person of the triune God indwells us, and he does work of illumination.

He helps us to understand the scriptures and we understand them. He enables us to obey them. Granted, not perfectly, none of us does perfectly, but we grow in that progressive sanctification from the moment of conversion until we are glorified, we die and we experience our glorification in heaven.

So it is a leading, the Holy Spirit creates in a person a desire for God's word. If you're a new creature in Christ, you're going to desire the pure milk of the word. It's gonna be a desire that the Holy Spirit will give you.

And you go to the scriptures, he helps you to understand the scriptures, obey the scriptures. And it is that sense in which the Holy Spirit leads us as Paul says to the Colossians in Colossians 3, let the word of Christ dwell richly within you.

As the word of Christ dwells richly within us, our minds are informed by the word of God, and then we just naturally obey it. So, and this is all the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of us as believers.

And that is the leading of the Holy Spirit. It's not a hunch, it's not a sense, it's not a, you know, it's not, it's nothing mystical. It's just growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Christ by studying and obeying God's word.

And that is the filling of the Holy Spirit too. If I could, while I'm thinking about it, a lot of people think, oh, you've got to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Well, it's not, you're baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ at your conversion.

That's the baptism by the Holy Spirit when he baptizes us into the body of Christ at our conversion. And when Paul says, do not be drunk with wine for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Holy Spirit, grammatically in the Greek, it could either be with the Holy Spirit or by the Holy Spirit.

I would submit to you that the context argues for the latter, that it's not like you go to bed at night and you're filled with the Holy Spirit, but you wake up in the morning and you're a court low, you know, that he seeps out somehow and you have to get more of him.

When you're converted, you get all of the Holy Spirit you're ever going to get. The Bible says that he gives the Spirit without measure. So when you're converted, you receive the third person of the triune Godhead.

And it's, it is the word of Christ, the content then of the filling is the word of Christ, is the scriptures, as the word of Christ dwells richly within us, so. All right, so the next,.

Reaching Loved Ones in the Word of Faith Movement

There are a couple of questions here that I'm going to combine together, but basically the question is, how do I get my family or friends out of word of faith movement if they're trapped in false charismatic word of faith churches?

So I kind of mentioned this earlier and I, you know, I figured, I said, just skipping that question, as we, I mentioned it earlier, this is one that comes up often, so we should deal with it. I mean, one thing I do, the thing that actually started the Justin and I win battle that we've had, which is just him and I going back and forth, it started because, you know, I had a guy working in my house, a contractor, and he was, he loved Joel Osteen and was in word of faith.

And I keep several copies of Clouds Without Water from Justin on hand. And so I ran out of them. And that's why I said to Justin, I need some, and he wanted me to, he wanted to give them to me and I wanted to pay for them.

And we went back and forth and that's what started that fun, fun exchange. But, and I won by the way, just for the record in this whole thing, I've gotten all of you to help donate to Justin on my behalf, so.

So Justin, I win. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. All right. So, so I keep those, I mean, that's actually the best thing to have on hand is to go to justinpeters .org, get a bunch of Clouds Without Waters and keep them on hand.

If they're in the word of faith, I don't know anything better to get them out than that. That the other thing I would keep on hand is, is American Gospel. Get several copies of those. And the first, there's actually several films that they're doing.

So I've done two films. The first one is a great one to have on hand. And so I would look to things like that and say, this is some stuff you may want to have just to say, hey, can you review this? Let me know what you think.

Now, what ends up happening is, it depends on the person, your relationship with that person and the person themselves. If it's someone I have a relationship with, I am going to deal with that over more time where I'm gonna wanna sit down.

If they're a person who is going to look at scripture and they're gonna submit to scripture, then I'm gonna sit down and say, let's dig into the scriptures and I'm gonna ask a lot of questions. But here's the thing that I would challenge you to do.

Don't answer, don't teach, ask questions. Get them to have to think about what they're doing because when you ask questions, it changes the process, thinking process. And when you do that, people have to, they're gonna process things differently.

Instead of just listening to you and looking how to throw darts at what you're saying, when you ask a question, they have to answer. And when they have to answer, the processing is different because they don't want you to poke holes at what they're saying.

So they think of how to answer to plug up all the holes. That's what you want them doing because what you want them recognizing is that they have holes in their argument. And that when they start recognizing it as they try to plug it themselves, that's when they could start reasoning their way through it.

So I would say, ask a lot of questions. I would say that you want to be careful not to just come down hard on them as I have the truth and you're wrong because all they're gonna do is respond to that defensively.

And so get some good resources and the way I would do it is not say, here, read this, you're wrong. But here, could you tell me what you think about this? Now, in the case with the guy, the contractor who was at my house, I knew he was coming back.

He came back and we had a very different discussion the second time he was out because he had watched the video. And now he was asking me a ton of questions because he now realized he had some problems with what these guys were teaching because of the way Justin laid things out.

So I don't know if you have anything.

You want to add to that, Justin. No, no, I don't think so. Just, okay, maybe I'll do just a little bit to tag on to that. If a person is not willing to have his theology corrected from scripture, then there's really no other card to play.

If you sense a willingness and a tenderness in the person to at least be open to the possibility that his beliefs and theology have been wrong and willing to have it corrected from scripture, then that's good.

That's what you want. That's what you hope for. And that's an opportunity and an invitation to spend more time with that person, reasoning from the scriptures. But if they're just absolutely, if their heels are dug in, if they say, I don't care what you show me from scripture, as I've had people do with me, then there's no other card to play.

There's no other rabbit to pull out of the hat if they won't bend the knee to God's word.

That's where you just pray for them and do what God does. So a question for you is, healings in other countries, limbs being restored, dead being raised, but no video to back it up. Can you explain this?

Yeah.

Yeah, because it's not happening. I mean, it's just, it was, yeah, it was Francis Chan here just not too long ago, claims that he was in, where was it, Andrew? Indonesia? Yeah. I forget where. Anyway, he claims that he healed, he prayed for these people in his village to be healed and God was just healing people in this village.