April 8, 2020 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Purgatory Revisited 20 Years After the White vs. Stravinskas Debate on Long Island, NY”

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Good.

Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

eighth day of April 2020.

And I am so thrilled to have back as a returning guest one of my favorite

guests one of my closest friends.

The man who was my very first guest on the very first broadcast of iron sharpens iron radio in

2005 and also the very first guest on iron sharpens iron radio when we

relaunched the program in 2015 the man to whom I gave a sense

of humor when he was nothing but a lifeless corpse in the area of humor.

It's dr. James R. White co -founder.

Excuse me.

Co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Today.

I was originally under the assumption that it was the 20th near the 20th anniversary.

But I've just discovered it is nearly the 19th anniversary of A

debate that I arranged for dr. White at the Huntington townhouse on Long Island on the doctrine

of purgatory The Roman Catholic teaching of purgatory.

This was a debate with Father Peter Stravinskis and it has become a

debate that has gone down in infamy particularly because of.

One.

Incident during the debate provoked by a wise guy a Protestant wise guy in the

audience and This is a I think has put Peter Stravinskis on the map

much more than anything else.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back brother.

Yes, what.

But I I think there was a whole lot more to it.

I mean that was he was at that point really an unhappy camper.

Yes, and wanted to be anywhere other than where he was.

Yes.

So that's sort of where that came from for me if you go

on YouTube, which I think is wonderful.

But if you scroll down a little bit more we've put port that one being one of them.

But for me the cross -examination when I was.

Oh, of course.

But you should you should give some background at

one location.

Carl house in Baldwin in Baldwin, right.

And then we had moved right?

Yes to the.

Huntington townhouse because at that time We were packing out the Coral House.

It had a much smaller venue.

They could seat a maximum of 500 people and we had a lot of people standing up and I said to myself well,

it's time to move and the Huntington townhouse could see a thousand and So we moved

there that by the way, it's a tragedy.

But that That facility the Huntington townhouse no longer exists.

Was raised to the ground and it's a like a parking lot or something but

The debates for our listeners who don't know the history of the debates I have a very good Roman

Catholic friend a real right -wing Roman Catholic friend not Exactly

a traditionalist.

I don't think he's a Latin right only guy, but he is on the border of that and

He used to have barbecues at his home in Baldwin Long Island and his sole

purpose of having these barbecues and gatherings and parties was to have

evangelicals and Roman Catholics eat drink and argue and Bob Posh

and I were always the last ones left in his living room.

And I was typically just sitting there laughing while he was Getting very upset in his face would be turning beet red

and veins popping out of his forehead and neck and and our wives my late wife Julie

and Bob's wife Mary Lou sweet sweet lady.

They'd be off in the kitchen afraid of us cowering in terror

Because of what was going on but there was a gentleman by the name of Greg Lloyd

An Eastern right Roman Catholic, which is an interesting sect within Roman Catholicism, although they

would never call themselves that they they follow some of the ceremonial

Practices that the Eastern Orthodox do but they have Rome's dogma.

They were they were welcomed into the Official Church of Rome.

I don't know how many years ago, but Greg Lloyd Approached me and

said You know, I want you to get a pastor.

To debate Jerry manatees who is a former Presbyterian who became Roman Catholic?

Jerry's gonna be on Long Island speaking at Catholic churches and I would love to get have you get a pastor.

He kept stressing a pastor to debate Jerry and you know, he wanted somebody who was going to be rolled

over like a steamroller Right.

He wanted somebody that Didn't know what he was walking into just

like Peter Stravinsky's didn't know what he was walking into when he was debating you.

But so that began the debates when I when I contacted first because I didn't know you I contacted Bill

Webster.

And he said oh no, no, no, no, no, you don't want me you want James White and That's when the infamous phone call

took place when I called you and I was going on for about five minutes.

No, I'd really love to have you come out the long.

I want to do a debate blah blah blah blah.

How did you get this number.

Was that Scott Butler.

But anyway, so the debates took off had really great crowds.

In fact, if you recall, but you didn't know that.

No, I didn't know that that first that first.

Yeah, the Baldwin coach.

Yeah, and.

I scared you to death.

I.

Did because you're going well, you know I walk

in and be all disheveled there and

he's gonna say oh, you know.

Like David Goliath and and you're looking at me like what on earth I remember I remember.

You're looking at me going no way.

Because all you've known about this guy is what is what you were told by a Roman Catholic friend.

Oh, you know and you're you're

proud before Jerry has

like that.

I was definitely sweating like a pig.

Yeah.

Yeah and.

So you get up there and.

You know first time around we're

like, okay, what what like is this moron?

So you get up there and you you've got you've got.

I'm not sure the people in the audience even wanted us to debate.

They just want you to keep going.

Very good.

These guys are gonna be boring after that.

I definitely broke the ice and

your wife.

You didn't say that you said you you didn't get these notes and how terrible and horrible this is

and and everybody.

Everybody thought I was real that that one you did.

That sounds like what somebody would do and then when you've done when you added the thing at the end.

There's like oh good grief will never believe a thing people will have to watch the

video to understand what you tell me.

They will they they will yeah.

Yeah, so but the point is that Jerry gets up and I remember.

Looked around the room and found you and you're staring at me with your mouth hanging open.

Because I had pretty much.

Given his the very first few was

I appear and and

it was exact and I think that's when you finally Think

you might have this handled if he

if he had him nailed that badly.

And we did have a good group that night and if I recall correctly one of the more interesting audience questions

Abdul Malik.

I think he was there that first.

Yes.

He was there for several of them at least was yeah.

Yeah, and we ended up doing that debate in 1999.

So he's now off and out.

But anyway, so yeah, I started there and then I think the next the next year was Jerry again,

wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

Yeah, we so we did two years and then it was Pacwa if I recall correctly, and I think those were all there in

Involvement, weren't they?

Yes, I think Peter Stravinsky's was the first Catholic debater that we had at the at the Huntington town.

I think yeah.

I think you're right.

Yeah.

Well, wait a minute.

No, because I think I debated in Jenna at the Huntington townhouse at the.

Because I know at least one of the debates of syngenesis at the Coral House.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

We did the math.

That's right.

That's right.

So you may be right.

I'm I'm not but six seems like I don't.

I don't remember five.

I have some vivid memories of.

The Huntington townhouse for that Debate with Stravinsky's.

I remember summer was there and this is.

Oh, yeah.

This was before summer was all that crazy about apologetics.

Not like she is now.

And I was like, hey summer great to see ya, whatever.

And I remember at the end of the Stravinsky's debate.

You.

Came in like a a knight in shining armor to rescue Stravinsky's from from a

nutjob this guy.

Oh, I hope you're not too insulted if you're listening, but.

This guy who used to come to all of the debates and maybe he stopped after that one.

But he was a he was a Unitarian Messianic Messianic Jew.

In fact, I would even say an Aryan if I'm not mistaken.

But he used to always ask questions no matter what the topic of the debate was on the Trinity, right?

And we'd be like, oh, here he goes, but he but he was like right in Stravinsky's face.

He was really obnoxious really rude and I knew how the night had gone.

I knew he wanted to get out of there.

I didn't have anything against the guy.

But you've got to tell the story.

Some of the background is actually found in when you first

contacted him and what he said when you told him who he'd be debating.

Remember.

In fact Roberts and Janice when they were on good terms Robert would never in a million

years Promote or recommend father free father Peter Stravinsky's today and I say that because I don't want to

get Robert upset if he's listening because I don't want to connect the two of them

unnecessarily, but Roberts and Janice was unavailable and

He I said, well, who do you recommend that I get to do this?

Oh, you got to get feeder father Peter Stravinsky's.

He's definitely got to get him.

So I contacted him and It was on a cell phone and he

happened to be in the liquor store, which Obviously I could have been calling many

Presbyterians and Lutherans or even reformed Baptists and it would be the same thing.

Like the old joke goes.

We all know this.

Catholics don't recognize Sola Scriptura.

You have Presbyterians who don't recognize believer baptism by immersion only and

Baptists don't recognize each other at the line at the liquor store.

What?

But but.

I Called him and I said father Peter Stravinsky's.

This is Chris Arnes and Roberts and Janice highly recommended you for a debate on purgatory.

I out on Long Island, New York, and I was wondering if you'd be interested.

Who's the character?

I'll be debating Said James White and his exact responses.

And he had no idea he might he was just going on hearsay.

He was going on right the descriptions of you.

From other Catholic apologists.

Because obviously.

You know, in fact the Catholics have always been every year.

We did those debates.

They were schizophrenic.

Because they would be telling us.

That.

The Catholic debater destroyed you and then you would see them on the Internet Devouring each

other mocking the Catholic debater as being worthless and not, you know being inept and

so on.

So Just like many people who have a side that they're passionate about they'll speak out of

two sides of their mouths.

They don't want to let the Opponent opposing side know that they really know that

you won.

Now that was before I was formally introduced to him and I had not met him

and I had I Don't think I had met him until either

The Robert Sabin debate on the Trinity or Or another Catholic debate at the

Huntington townhouse, but it was it was a several years later, right?

Well, he was there for that one because he was talking to.

I did notice that the a lot

of people stuck around for quite some time.

We didn't get out there till fairly late that night and Of course everybody from hope it but yeah,

they called themselves the Whiteheads if you remember something like that.

Yeah, and so but they were wearing yellow if I recall correctly, but Anyway,

Mike was talking to oh.

And that you could you could not possibly.

If you have an unbiased opinion watch that debate and come up with that conclusion

because well.

Yeah, but but the unbiased part was what was not was about present, right?

Right, so we had done solo scriptura.

We had done we had done a married debate and we did

that we did.

We also did the the priesthood I think with Pacwa but

but back with that.

But that was it later.

That's right.

Because I remember he came up to us with his cowboy hat on.

Later goes y 'all want to get a beer.

Well, actually that was.

This is interesting.

That was after the papacy debate in Baldwin.

Okay, and it was almost midnight and we're leaving and I'm like, yeah.

This sounds like the beginning of a of a gym to a bar in New York.

You know Yeah.

By the way, our audience should know that you and I both have the highest respect for Mitch Pacwa

even though we have vehement disagreements with him.

Oh, of course, of course.

I've done five debates with Mitch and they've all been Just top -notch and I just wish we still had

wish we had the video the wish Scott Butler hadn't gotten rid of video tape.

That's $30 ,000 for it.

But anyway, that's another stuff.

The point is we had covered a lot of the and and Syngenta at Huntington.

I think that might have been the year before.

This is my recollection.

I'm not sure.

Purgatory, you know, I wasn't sure how this was going to go.

I wasn't sure how central the topic was but I I think That of all the

debates that we drew issue of justification was probably

more clearly seen in the debate with driven story.

Yeah, I believe it's like any of the other.

Yeah, I believe that is such a core issue purgatory that separates Rome from

Bible -believing Reformational Christians because it militates the the

dogma of purgatory militates against the cross the perfection of Christ's work and

You could go on and on with how it opposes.

Very core scriptural teachings that hinge on the gospel.

Oh, yeah, and I and that came out and I and I think part of the reason it came out.

Well, I mean, I imagine some people in the audience

if I recall correctly, I think he started first.

I think he had the opening statement.

Remember the primary Protestant that he made reference to.

Jimmy Swagger.

Jimmy Swagger and people in the audience are looking at me and I'm looking at people in the audience going.

Oh.

Boy, this is gonna be an interesting evening.

I don't think he had any concept.

What a reformed Baptist was.

No, no, and he clearly had not done any Preparation in the sense of wanting to

find out and that came through very very clearly.

He has two PhDs from Ivy League school

that you

know next

gift

of 1990.

More than that.

But thanks to kovat 19.

We've had to cancel a number of.

I was supposed to work in all those debates.

Over and over again, these people will walk in and they will not have read of

none whatsoever that they're not all that way.

And in fact, I don't know if you've seen the debate that I did with Peter Williams.

No, in fact, I was waiting for them.

We're gonna take a while for them to be made available.

Well, we did that we did the Unbelievable radio broadcast, but then we also did the debate

in Northern Ireland, right?

Right on indulgence and that's been on YouTube forever.

Oh, wow.

I didn't I didn't even realize because I was waiting to watch that.

And this is something that may shock Many of our listeners

even possibly Roman Catholic listeners, but indulgences are alive and well.

This is not something that oh, of course that this is not something that remained in the 16th century and prior.

In.

Fact every time you purchase a mass card for somebody who is mourning the

death of a loved one though that money is Really an indulgence to

lessen the time and purgatory for that person.

Yeah, and and Peter Williams, you know defended that and you know.

But the point is that Peter reads my stuff

and is that makes obviously for a much more

Stravinsky's had not you know, just getting into another conversation with Jimmy

meanwhile.

You may recall I I am a gadget man.

And so I.

Yeah, I look for it today, I know.

I still have it.

There's no way I would have thrown it out.

I just don't know which box.

I did find two of my old pom -pom T5

and stuff like that, which I've got here in my hand.

Of course, I had these.

I had a handspring back then.

They were called PDAs public.

So it's before I thought it was before smartphones and stuff like that.

But it was sort of a smartphone without the phone part and I had my opening statement.

Another publication had similar error

for debates if you respect the audience

first and so

I Get up there and I give a present for

theology.

Doesn't know exactly right?

Oh, I think he thought all evangelicals were easy Believism types that you could write you could live like

Satan himself and you would still go to heaven just because you went up for an.

Multicore or something right one based on exegesis

and stuff like that.

So even his rebuttal Didn't really touch home that he he

sort of just defaulted back to what he expected and hoped for the best.

Well, once we got in the cross cross X, I didn't know this.

I never took a class on debating out the way but

on on debate like that and the first few debates I did early early on

sort of stumbled into but over time I

realized this is where the debate takes place.

Have

on

YouTube how

long it is.

No wonder he wanted to leave I mean he was literally pulling at his collar.

He pulled on his collar more than Rodney Dangerfield and and at the end of the debate

he didn't even want to physically touch the video that rich was trying to give him of the.

The master of the of the debate he had.

He wanted nothing to do with it.

Yeah, well he wasn't gonna make it.

There is a if you scroll down

on YouTube after then right

below that who is the Blessed

man.

Yes things that came out that that evening.

Well, I'm going to before we go to our midway not our midway break our first break.

I should say I'm going to play the infamous pay now or pay later.

Clip from this debate and this begins as I said earlier.

With a wise guy and you know, this is the audience Q &A.

This is technically after the debate.

Yes.

Well, I mean, it's still a part.

I know but I mean, we're done right?

Yeah, this is a wise guy.

Protestant in the audience.

Who.

I've looked very clever and what he did, but it was obviously.

He's being a little bit of a wise guy here.

But here we go.

For me a Catholic Bible and Pramada Seal and stamped.

I'm reading two sentences from the book of Tobit.

Tobit chapter 4 verses 10 would be my first sentence

for almsgiving.

Delivers from death and saves men from passing down to darkness.

The second sentence I'd like to read is from Tobit chapter 12 verses

9.

Almsgiving saves from death and purges every kind of sin.

My question is.

This is a book that the Catholics have held as being inspired Given the emphasis you have made

with purgatory.

It appears to me that Every good Catholic seems to have the option

instead of going to purgatory to perhaps Write a check or do

alms of some kind that will also purge them.

Yeah, it's pay now or pay later.

Very simply so you can write a check now to avoid purgatory.

The New Testament tells us charity covers a multitude of sins.

What is that fee.

Because I think you'd get a few checks probably.

What would that amount be?

Okay, Reverend why'd you have a response as well.

The term Charity is actually the term love not the giving of money in the New Testament.

And I What can I say?

If if our view of sin is such.

That.

Giving alms can cover sins.

Why did Christ die upon the cross.

Next question?

There you have it and.

In fact, it reminds me that this debate with father Peter Stravinsky's is

The first of two debates that nearly developed into lawsuits against.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

You're right.

Father Stravinsky's and Barry Lynn of United Americans United for separation.

And by the way, I heard you

Describing my role in the debates on the dividing line where you said, oh, we never want Chris to do any of the

moderation.

People.

Automatically think well, they constantly come to me and say oh I saw you moderate that debate

that debate and like no.

No, no, I am seed it which is a big difference between Moderating.

First of all, I never wanted to moderate.

I wanted to sit back and enjoy watching, you know I didn't want to be a little caught up in having to time

things and all that kind of thing.

But there was one Debate that I did moderate if you may recall and that was the infamous

debate that you had with my friend.

Yes, Jim Barker.

And that may have been one of the reasons that you never wanted me to moderate it.

And I said brother Barker, please stop Julie.

Love you Jim if you're listening.

But anyway, we're going to our first Commercial break if you have a question on purgatory when we come back,.

I'd like you to Define this because you know, there are a lot of people both

Protestant and Catholic.

I mean I learned more about Catholicism.

Doing arranging these debates with you all these years since 1995 than I ever learned as a Roman Catholic.

Going to eight years of Catholic school and being an altar boy I was still

ignorant about a lot of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches as are Quite a

number of friends of mine who are Catholic.

I remember even One of my friends who was a very militant Roman Catholic.

He actually thought The Immaculate Conception was referring to Christ.

Christ's.

Conception in Mary's womb and He was what he was baffled that I was Very

opposed to the teaching I said Tom Bob.

It's not has nothing to do with that.

It's Mary's Immaculate conception and her mother's womb.

He had no idea.

But anyway, a lot of people may be confused or in the dark about purgatory.

They may think especially that our Ecumenist friends may think oh, this is just an alternative

Understanding of the afterlife.

There's so much mystery about the afterlife.

This is just one more thing We could add to the discussion.

There's no big deal about it.

But they could not be more wrong as you will will be more Precise and defining it.

When we come back if anybody would like to join us on the air Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and as always give us your first name city and state and Country of residence if you live

outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves Personal and private matter.

We'll be right back with dr. James R white.

James white of Alpha Omega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough.

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If you could explain a little bit about that, well, yeah, you remember

I mean

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And a number of years later.

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The emblem not debate on Revelation TV

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I had it with me then but the cover was really really it

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great Jeffrey to use for it that are

used in binding older book.

He's a master.

I tell you Wow.

Yeah, it is really really good.

I'm in the dividing

line down to a museum

quality reproductions of ancient.

Yeah, well

folks.

Dan but a few goes law firm has suffered greatly because of the Corona's

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People not visiting him in his offices, which is a primary way.

He gets clients.

So, please If you know of anybody that's been involved in a serious accident or

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And also don't forget about a PTL Bible rebinding.

Is it calm?

I Don't have it memorized.

Okay.

Let me look it up.

Just like a post -anniversary.

It is calm.

I just looked it up PTL Bible rebinding calm and I want to thank a recent guest of mine.

Kurt Daniel.

Dr. Kurt Daniel who is A for a real premier book collector

he contacted Jeff and I hope that Jeff gets business out of him because he definitely has a lot of

books and Hopefully he'll rebind many of them.

But anyway folks.

We are now back to discuss Purgatory with dr. James R. White 19 years

after nearly 19 years after the infamous James White versus his father Peter

Stravinsky's debate on this subject and if you could dr. White define purgatory.

Well back in the day when

John Paul the second I'm not I'm not even sure

I would define

purgatory and explain why

there's not nearly 90s in the

early 2000s you'd still have that type of thing going

on.

I think most of the Catholic apologists realize about most of the

topics that we really want to debate about.

They're not sure what kind of an answer, you know can't be overly encouraging.

So anyway, the subject of purgatory the

development of doctrine within Roman Catholicism.

Some of the threads go back to the the rise of hagiolatry the

veneration of Saints.

And the concept

which would be that is where we get refrigerant would be

a number of different things had to come

into the form

definition of a place called Called purgatory even though he didn't have a doctrine as defined as

Rome has today.

And then the most important thing that developed was this concept of Merit the the whole

concept the whole they come together to form the idea of super

irrigation.

That shed just a

single drop of blood that that would have been enough to redeem the whole world.

But since he bled copiously there is this treasury of merit

of the excess of Mary and the Saints as well.

And so the whole hagiolatry thing had to come to a saint.

Contribute their excess.

Many of the excess merit of Jesus has shed blood

and these are all in the treasury of merit.

Can make withdraw together with the idea of

MIT a venial sin as well

as a temporal punishment.

Well the the the

greater punishment piling up on your

Eventually what of a need for a place of purgation or cleansing before

entering into the presence

of God because nothing unclean in

Purgatory.

If most people are assuming they're going to be spending time

we can work out a little deal

here in essence.

And that's where indulgence trafficking Came from and Johan Tetzel and a whole story

that leads into counters these things

justification by say back then

it was entire books

you can still buy from.

Tan book publishers haven't heard a lot about.

Ultra traditionalists, right?

I.

Don't think they were back then.

I don't know where they are now.

Okay, they do a lot of the older.

Well, they were very right -wing and they were very very vehemently anti -protestant.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And so they would publish a lot of stuff and you can still find these books

all sorts of and others who have a lot.

But oh, yeah Saints as well.

I mean there's Pope but the idea of

the whole Indulgence connected with with Mary that gets you out on

like the first Thursday after session.

It all of it was based on the idea of time.

It would be a week off for a month off for a year off and things like that.

A lot of that has fallen out.

Purgatory is presented in the

days of France.

So it really depends on the Roman Catholic.

Yeah, in fact, there's a new theory that I never heard as a kid growing up.

I grew up just after Vatican 2 was established in the

late 60s and 70s.

I went to Catholic school and We never heard this understanding of purgatory like you hear some prominent

Catholics teach today that it could be instantaneous.

Right like like walking through very quickly walking through a wall of fire or something and you know that

I basically As a kid the understanding that I had about

purgatory.

It was that the only difference between purgatory and hell was that everybody in purgatory eventually

gets to heaven.

And hell is eternal punishment, right?

Right.

It's it's not a

it's not a

friend of God.

You have the concept it's not the application the

merit anything else to you

indulgences.

Yeah, I'm really not sure where Francis is on all that.

I mean he did Last year they're having so

they opened

these will coming that he

broadened it out.

Math pietistic High in the sky.

So that's why I said I

I haven't even heard a lot of subjects.

Yeah, a lot of the Catholic apologists I believe or whether they admit it or not are embarrassed by their current

Pope.

They are and they really don't want to be questioned about that in public.

In fact.

If you are willing to participate if by some miracle I can find a worthy Catholic opponent for you.

I want.

To do my next Catholic debate on the theme is Pope Francis a trustworthy

Shepherd.

Something to do that last year

really and he initially

the two subjects that we presented That was the first one

and then

and

of course be on my part

very little right and

Officially, all you gotta do is look at the people he's assigning to

Making Cardinals and stuff like that.

He's stacking the deck first.

In fact, let's pick up where we left off.

We have to go to our midway break.

Sorry folks.

It's a longer than normal break because grace life radio requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show.

Because they by FCC regulations have to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida.

So they air their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of the show while we air our globally

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at gmail .com dr. White.

If you want to wrap up anything you were saying about Pope Francis's Appointments of liberals and so on

which give us an idea where he's coming from.

Well, I'll everybody

knows why.

Well, how do you

do that?

Very obvious friends

are

many

many many more Cardinals and

Francis is probably not

going to be a John Paul the second.

They're not going to be a Benedict the 16th type of person.

He's probably going to be much more.

They've got the voting bloc now.

And in fact, you know a lot of people Especially Catholics who are conservative fondly

remembered John Paul to as a conservative Pope, but let's not forget He kissed the Quran.

Oh, yeah, and he had prayer meetings with voodoo priests and all kinds of bizarre Representatives

of pagan religion and so on.

In fact Robertson Janice Our mutual friend who you've debated a number of times.

He was fired from EWTN the eternal word television network for critical being critical of John Paul to

before way before Francis ever became Pope.

Politics, but the point is for apologists.

They don't know what in the

world would come out.

It's a difficult day to be it.

But going back to debate that we were talking about.

We played the pay me now pay me later clip.

If you don't listen watch those.

One seven minutes 46 seconds others eight minutes.

And and always the best part of any

debate.

Yeah, well.

There are only a few exceptions in a

debate.

A debate.

Otherwise, you could just watch one guy's videos and watch the other guy's videos and you'd have the same thing.

Cross -examination is

wouldn't see

an error.

Amazingly.

There's only been a couple.

Had any clue how to do cross -examination.

One of them.

You were right on Mary as you mentioned.

Yes, you took it.

Met with Tony Costa.

Know that I did.

Oh, oh.

Yeah, yes with the Chris Christopher Ferrara, right, right, right, even though he did use a

fake.

But but at least he knew how to do cross -examination.

I've debated a number of attorneys if they they skipped that

like Barry Lynn for instance.

Wasn't a part of their their litigation training or

whatever was but

anyways

for that debate and that was the.

Was that the same?

Trip or the year after that was after Barry Lynn.

I remember it was I did not do my homework and we scheduled that debate during

a on a date that there was some Monumental event going on on Long Island and we had a horrible turnout

was the only debate that I arranged that had a horrible turn.

Matt was during the summer and It was at a Catholic College.

And but it was definitely after.

Well, I'm talking about the Barry Lynn one that was oh that was like in 1999 or something wasn't

no.

Anyway, actually, I thought it was the same year because I I think I need to

debate.

But anyway, I let him borrow my little Bible and then

yes.

So.

He and I walked through.

I walked him.

Unusual and

that's when he realized he was someplace.

He did not want to be he was.

He was not debating Jimmy Swagger.

He was debating a guy the last time he

had looked at the Greek want to be there for that

and but.

Enlightening.

And every time I've debated a Roman Catholic on this subject the same things happen

with him.

Staples you really start

walking through what the tech doesn't support read it

that way and.

He was extremely uncomfortable.

And then in the second cross -examination because we had a lot of cross -examination.

I'm glad we did.

I asked him about and I can't tell you how many times since

that before.

Blesses the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Is the last portion from a quotation from Psalm 32 there in Romans chapter 4 verses 7 and 8 and

in Roman Catholicism?

There is no blessed man.

If you understand Roman Catholic traditional Roman Catholic theology again Pre

-francis you commit a

venial sin.

It is imputed to you.

There is no non -imputation because

they deny the imputed right they

recall maybe don't recall.

I'm not sure when I first asked Roman Catholic

pre -catholic

preclude the blessed man was

Two PhDs from Ivy League schools.

Okay, we're not talking about some guy.

No, well over editor of a Catholic to me

the blessed man was that yeah.

In years.

Well, I definitely remember that because that was a pivotal part of the debate.

It was.

And then do you remember what his answer was?

He didn't really know.

No, his first answer was Jesus, well, that's right.

That's right.

Jesus is the blessed man and I'm I'm sitting here going.

Well, wait a minute.

Jesus is the blessed man because.

And you could just see him in fact, what's funny on on on YouTube.

You know, you get these with the videos

and the one for that one who is the blessed man is Stravinskis sitting

there staring at his Bible like where did this thing come from?

Right, right.

I've never seen this thing before.

He had clearly never ever even.

Contemplating.

You could have bet.

You could have baptized.

Joel Osteen's entire congregation by immersion with the sweat that poured off of Peter Stravinskis.

This is why we don't let you moderate any of the debate.

But.

Yeah, and the guy who did moderate you remember the name.

Hmm.

Wow, I don't.

He was the guy from the from the.

That's right.

I got like a neutral guy that.

That's why I think it was the same year as the Barry Lyndon Baker it probably was yeah, he did both of them and So

he was good from Hofstra.

I think Hofstra or Delta University.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

That's where he's from.

Anyway He you know, so I said you would you like to rethink that because it's

clearly not Jesus and So, you know what?

His final answer was his final answer was well, I Hope that it's me.

I Hope it would be that it would be me and That of course allowed.

I mean I preached my final my closing statement was nothing but a sermon as well as it needed to be

because Every single believer the blessed

man.

Reverse a if you're a believer in Jesus Christ, you're the blessed man of Romans for it.

That's the whole point.

So to say well, I hope oh, maybe it was Jesus.

Some Roman Catholics have come up the with the answer that

The blessed man wrote of Romans just been baptized

before they leave the church To commit sin.

I mean there you go that that and that that's bad when you think about it.

But that's because Rome does not have a finished work.

It does not have an imputed righteous Christ.

That's why I cannot bring peace.

That's the whole point and that came out so clearly so that that was already

water under the bridge by the time the audience questions started and the

guy reads from Tobit and That's when you get the pay me now pay me later.

And then if you watch the video, he doesn't even want to continue to answer the guy's question because like I.

And.

I've had a number of friends who have said that that's that's their favorite one of the great

debates on

the issue of Justification and I

would say there was there was more clarity in

that debate and Janice see

Stravinsky's I think is a lifelong Catholic and.

So what you the problem with people like

Jen is

they are so

they use our language

Lesson in the way they make their pretend

I could do that

Utilize our language to and so a lot of people said yeah.

That's that's my favorite one though made it very very very clear.

And of course over the decay

that that debate was Important and they're either not becoming Roman

Catholic

continues.

So many blessings that we've been able to

have hope that

we can continue to do that I will be perfect government.

Yeah

past six weeks than we did in the

past in the previous six years.

Yep.

And I don't think people see it because

we're willing to do this.

Over a biological virus what happens when we need to

defeat the fire right.

And if you don't think that they're watching

and not listening and I Assigned to you a quick rereading of 1984 by

PST.

Well, let's go to some of our listener questions.

I usually only give the first name and city and state of listeners, but when it's a pastor that I greatly

admire I Identify them fully my dear friend pastor George

Jensen of the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

He is an interesting individual because I interviewed him.

I don't know how many years ago it was but it was before.

It was actually after the Tony Costa debate here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Pastor Jensen Before Pope Francis was the Pope.

He.

Was beginning to take seriously some Roman Catholic apologetic arguments because he was seeing

the abysmal state of modern evangelicalism around him and Dr. Tony Costa totally

destroyed any Notion that he had in his head About flirting with Rome

after that debate.

He was just so thrilled with that debate, but he has to say Please tell dr. White that I am very

grateful for his book the Roman Catholic controversy.

And he says his book has been very helpful to me whenever Catholic apologists are trying to

get me to convert.

Thank you.

We have a first -time listener.

Or a first -time questioner at the very least.

And he is from Martinsville, Saskatchewan, Canada.

Kyle, he says 1st Corinthians 3 is often used by Roman Catholic apologists to support the idea of

purgatory.

Is there an official infallible magisterial interpretation of that passage.

If not upon what basis can any Roman Catholic interpret it much less use it in support of purgatory?

Do they have any?

Infallible interpretation of any scripture.

Well, that depends on

who you talk

to it's like well

Statement as to exactly what this means, but it seems to indicate something along these lines

so again, he was.

As long as he thought he was up against Jimmy Swaggert light, then he didn't have to make

interpretation.

But then when I started asking him based upon the Greek text what exactly he was saying all of a sudden We're not really

sure what any of this is saying.

Anyway, and so if you if you go watch it.

You go go till see that that ends up coming up is.

Well, you know, it's not literally and you know, there's not infallible statement so on so forth so

some would argue that since 1st Corinthians chapter 3 has been cited as a text supportive

of purgatory that yes, that's an infallible interpretation, but.

That the modern Roman Catholic idea is well We we infallibly know that it is

but we don't know how.

We can't we can't say exactly how it is, but we know infallibly that it is.

And that's that's the problem with infallibility.

Is that almost anything?

I don't think we ever did this come to think of it, which is odd to

debate on papal infallibility.

The one in Florida in both

of them what because

the Pope can say nearly anything and if

it's not.

Declared ex cathedra.

It's not binding and doesn't really mean anything.

Well, what.

Right and.

How do you know that

it's being

defined ex

cathedra a letter as and yet

any of you reflective of papal guidance at that time.

You can't know that what the end up running in there.

I'm absolutely serious.

For hundreds of years every bishop that took condemned

on Norias with the anathema.

Okay, so so what how how do you fit that?

That's why that's why.

Newman.

Because he knew history.

Anyone nearly church use me.

What what are you people talking about?

But once it was defined then he submitted and came up.

Papal infallibility is is a

Useless heap.

One of the infallible things.

Not until basically he's dead.

By the

way.

A shout -out to.

Skyman also known as David T King.

He's listening in Katy, Texas and sends his greetings.

Oh, well, that's.

That's good to hear.

Obviously, we make reference regularly to

unsolicited Torah.

I know that.

By David King things like that.

So yeah, good to good to know.

He's out there and listening in.

And you could go to Christian truth comm to purchase that three volume set Massive

900 page I believe three volume set on Holy Scripture

Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith, right?

I think it was a quote by Athanasius or I think it's Aaron is Aaron.

That's right.

It is it.

We're going to our final break it's gonna be much more brief than the last one and Send in a question

now if you intend to write one because we're running out of time very rapidly Chris Arnsett at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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When I in sharpen Zion radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been

sticking with or Switching to the NASB.

I'm dr.

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James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues Some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church.

Now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York I've had the

privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions.

Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught Discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church.

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or call six three one six nine six five seven one one.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on iron

sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

And dr. Tony Costa gives his greetings as well.

And he obviously missed a very crucial part of our interview because he says Tell James pay me

now or pay me later.

He'll know what that means.

Give me a break Tony.

Everybody knows what that means.

Who's listening?

We have Brian in Huntsville, Alabama.

The doctrine of purgatory seems to be everywhere in our Christian culture movies books, etc.

It is given as a fact that all Christians believe this from a reform perspective.

How can we fight this battle when it is a tradition of our Catholic friends who espouse it and obviously not

biblical?

Hmm, I didn't realize that most people.

That's not been my experience.

In fact, there are a lot of Roman Catholics who don't really have any

problem with purgatory.

Well people that are called Protestants, but they are Protestants by taste not by conviction.

Have adopted.

Emotionally based they don't really have

the strongest foundation.

Why it's wrong.

Most Christian.

I

Sanctify really eschatology as a whole formal eschatology that is heaven

-held judgment.

Once you you

Hannibal why there are now Protestants or at least non Roman Catholics.

They're saying no, this isn't all that bad of an idea.

We got it with Armenian leaders, you

know.

We had to think this through, you know, maybe not all the indulgence stuff and stuff like that.

But sort of an idea, you know of some type of

Cleansing

situation.

What was

actually going.

Brian send us your full mailing

address.

Because as a first -time questioner.

You have won a free copy of the New American Standard Bible, by the way, James.

I'm going to recycle a joke right now from one of our debates as you may recall our debate that was

either before or right after the y2k scare.

And 2000.

Here is my recycling of one of my jokes from my stand -up routine at that debate.

Iron sharpens iron radio would like to announce that if the bans on public gatherings have been lifted

by them We are going to be conducting a debate between the cave dwellers and the tree people.

Let's see.

We have John in Peoria, Illinois.

John says is there an extra biblical origin for the purgatory story

idea other than just Imposed on scripture.

Is it based in some specific pagan mythology?

Well.

I wouldn't doubt that there is because remember any any

doctrinal development like purgatory Takes place over time there are numerous streams that come together to

form it.

Like I said, you had early Concepts that that required other concepts to develop

the full -blown doctrine of

birth life

after death.

In some ways It would be fair to say

ideas.

You know,

none of

that

comes and

suffering not necessarily

the idea of needing to be perfect not even

the pagans.

That's uh,

but yeah.

They're there could be some things out there that I mean

Hagiolatry that the whole development of the as significantly more.

By the way, anybody who is a first -time questioner Give me your full mailing address so that you can receive a free NASB.

Because my memory isn't that great that I would remember each and every time somebody writes in.

We have someone who's a mutual friend of ours Pastor Gary George of Sovereign

Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts and.

And.

Gary says it appears that mentioning purgatory in funerals has waned

and using Protestant terminology like with the Lord or being in heaven is becoming

more private prominent.

Why is there less commitment to their catechism?

Yeah, that's been going on since I was a kid.

I mean, yeah.

Even my my mom my precious mom who? definitely trusted in Christ and his

gospel.

Before she entered into eternity after succumbing to pancreatic cancer.

Her funeral showed you the schizophrenia of the Catholic Church because they were speaking of her as in heaven.

And then at some point early on in the wake as we call them

in certain parts of the country There was a prayer for her to be released from

the torments of purgatory.

Right and I remember my sister kneeling next to me my sister who was still Roman Catholic Was was repeating these

words about her being released from her torment of purgatory.

I said, what do you think mom is Mary?

Heaven, I said, what are you saying those words for?

What are you saying for her to be released from purgatory the torments of purgatory?

But anyway, you have any comments about Pastor Gary George's.

Question.

Yeah, I would love to get in touch with with Gary.

I actually have information on what happened to him.

Well, his website is sovereign grace ma .org ma for Massachusetts sovereign grace ma .org, I'll

try to remember that.

So.

Yeah, obviously

someone not.

So.

Roman Catholicism and then after

after Vatican to

it's not that it's not

that indulgences were done away with.

It's not the purgatory was done away with but the there was sort of a public relations.

Really I'm convinced the

magisterium of the church are minimally inclusivist and many of them are universalist.

I think it's universe.

I think that spreads down and so I

just think it reflects a faith in

the in the dogmatic and

I mean if you

want if

you want because if you if you

string together.

You've got you've got a full -blown trend and it's hard to turn the ship Once

you've it.

Well, thanks a lot

to my brother from another mother in.

Massachusetts and.

Saying that to me because I would.

Well, there is nobody that I've ever heard speak that has a more thick, Massachusetts accent than Gary George.

Phil Sessa, who's another friend of mine?

He is with soul fishing ministries and he Says

doesn't the very idea of purgatory really blaspheme what Christ said on the cross.

It is finished.

That's what I hinted at that earlier on in the beginning of the program.

Roman Catholicism still believes that Sacrificed wasn't enough because there still needs to

be some purging.

Well.

Obviously the key

term is that

is not the

application of the sacrifice.

And because they deny sola fide and they deny the imputation.

It's not that this alone is the reason that you can say that the Roman

Catholic gospel blaspheme symptom.

Then it is the prime need for purgation and

you're gonna have excess merit and and so like an indulgence for

example.

And that's a mixed merit the treasury of

merit Jesus and Mary and all the same tumble

together, there's no it's all just excess merit and that in of

itself.

Well, that's considered to

be the same and have done anything.

They did outside of

the reason why there needs to be even is because they're

trusting and and

Phil Sessa's website is

soul.

Fishing ministries org soul fishing ministries org.

God bless you, brother.

Keep listening to the show and spreading the word in Queens, New York and beyond.

By the way, Phil you also get a free New American Standard Bible because to my knowledge.

This is the first time you've ever sent in a question.

Let's see.

We have Johnny in also in Queens, New York and Johnny

says good to hear.

Dr. White back on iron sharpens iron.

I still remember being there in 1996 for the Marian debate with Jerry Matta ticks at the Coral House on Long Island.

Dr. White actually had relatively more hair.

Most lay Roman Catholics are oblivious to many of the tenets of their own faith purgatory the

treasury of merits, etc.

How can an everyday Christian learn to properly engage their neighbors and friends on these crucial topics?

Without it being a mere academic pursuit or winning an argument.

How can we effectively share the gospel with an everyday Roman Catholic?

Well, you could start by watching all of dr. White's debates with Catholics.

But and read the Roman Catholic controversy, right.

And Mary another Redeemer question mark but You could answer that yourself.

Yeah, well in the Roman Catholic

controversy.

I do follow these individuals.

That does not mean that every Roman Catholic lost

people who have a simple faith in Christ and believe

Understanding of

what it is that

brings

the peace of God.

It really depends on if you're talking many many

many many Roman

Catholics.

They are not Roman

Catholicism there is

that

even a person who doesn't practice much.

Even when you're talking to

someone who terminology

you see is going to be the freedom

of grace if you're

talking to a

Roman

Catholic It really knows to believe

they listen to Catholic answers live.

Whatever else might be then that's it.

That's be

a daunting task almost

all them the major we did or I

think I even even

recall

correctly and with Jerry

Only

a couple of years ago

that I didn't

see that coming back.

And well, I want you to basically.

Summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to this very important topic

that Separates those on the opposite sides of the Tiber.

Well, obviously as I just said the key

issue is Peter's in peace of God while the

cross -examination question.

First debate the first debate we

did on justification

shalom true shalom, which is

wellness of relationships not just the lack of and He

really eventually just said I

don't know and very few of my debate opponents would actually make a statement.

Yes, in fact, he even said the same thing when you asked him if The Apostle Paul viewed Peter

as his Pope.

He said I don't know.

He was honest enough to tell you that.

Yeah, that that was.

That's what made the debate with Mitch

Pack with we

covered.

That's the point is is peace of God and

The Roman Gospel cannot bring you.

That piece is the fundamental issue the

papers the other stuff leads up to that

five one.

Therefore having Jesus God for Lord Jesus Christ, are you the blessed man

of Romans 4 8 to whom if you believe the tenets

of no.

In fact, I remember and this is an excellent way that all of our listeners who are evangelical It is Bible

believing Christians can answer our Roman Catholic friends when they ask you Do

you believe I'm your brother just as Mitch Pacwa asked you in one of the debates and rather than just blurting

out No, you're Catholic.

You said well if you believe in the gospel as the Council of Trent defines it.

There is no hope in that gospel, right?

But we are out of time and folks.

Don't forget that Alpha and Omega ministries also features James White's

phenomenal webcast The dividing line and you can find out more information about that at a o

m i n org a o m i n org.

We can also find a complete list of all of James's debates and books and other resources.

Thank you so much Dr. White for being on our program today.

I look forward to your frequent return.

God bless you brother and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.