April 8, 2020 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Purgatory Revisited 20 Years After the White vs. Stravinskas Debate on Long Island, NY”

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Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Proverbs chapter 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 8th day of April, 2020.

And I am so thrilled to have back as a returning guest, one of my favorite guests, one of my closest friends, the man who was my very first guest on the very first broadcast of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in 2005, and also the very first guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when we relaunched the program in 2015, the man to whom

I gave a sense of humor when he was nothing but a lifeless corpse in the area of humor.

It's Dr. James R. White, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Today, I was originally under the assumption that it was near the 20th anniversary, but I've just discovered it is nearly the 19th anniversary of a debate that I arranged for Dr.

White at the Huntington townhouse on Long Island on the doctrine of purgatory, the

Roman Catholic teaching of purgatory. This was a debate with Father Peter Stravinskas, and it has become a debate that has gone down in infamy, particularly because of one incident during the debate provoked by a wise guy, a

Protestant wise guy in the audience, and this is a, I think, has put

Peter Stravinskas on the map much more than anything else he's ever done. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, brother.

Well, it's good to be with you. Actually, I don't, I'm not sure what you have queued up there, whether it's the payment now, payment later, or what, but I think there was a whole lot more to it than,

I mean, that was, he was, at that point, really an unhappy camper, and wanted to be anywhere other than where he was.

So that's sort of where that came from. For me, if you go on YouTube, you just put

Peter Stravinskas into YouTube, the first thing that comes up is the debate, which I think is wonderful. But if you scroll down a little bit more, we've put portions of the debate, real short portions of the debate, that one being one of them.

But for me, the cross -examination, when I was asking him questions, was the most important.

Oh, of course. I mean, that was just, that was incredible. Of course. But you should give some background, because this was the sixth of the debate, and so we had had the first couple at one location.

Coral House in Baldwin. Coral House in Baldwin, right. And then we had moved, right? Yes, to the

Huntington Townhouse, because at that time, we were packing out the Coral House.

It had a much smaller venue. They could seat a maximum of 500 people, and we had a lot of people standing up.

And I said to myself, well, it's time to move, and the Huntington Townhouse could seat 1 ,000. And so we moved there.

That, by the way, it's a tragedy, but that facility, the Huntington Townhouse, no longer exists.

It was razed to the ground, and it's like a parking lot or something. But the debates for our listeners who don't know the history of the debates,

I have a very good Roman Catholic friend, a real right -wing Roman Catholic friend, not exactly a traditionalist.

I don't think he's a Latin right -only guy, but he is on the border of that. And he used to have barbecues at his home in Baldwin, Long Island.

And his sole purpose of having these barbecues and gatherings and parties was to have evangelicals and Roman Catholics eat, drink, and argue.

And Bob Posh and I were always the last ones left in his living room.

And I was typically just sitting there laughing while he was getting very upset and his face would be turning beet red and veins popping out of his forehead and neck.

And our wives, my late wife Julie and Bob's wife

Mary Lou, sweet, sweet lady, they'd be off in the kitchen afraid of us, cowering in terror because of what was going on.

But there was a gentleman by the name of Greg Lloyd, an

Eastern right Roman Catholic, which is an interesting sect within Roman Catholicism, although they would never call themselves that.

They follow some of the ceremonial practices that the

Eastern Orthodox do, but they have Rome's dogma. They were welcomed into the official

Church of Rome. I don't know how many years ago, but Greg Lloyd approached me and said, you know,

I want you to get a pastor to debate Jerry Manatics, who is a former

Presbyterian who became Roman Catholic. Jerry's going to be on Long Island speaking at Catholic churches and I would love to have you get a pastor, he kept stressing a pastor, to debate

Jerry. And he wanted somebody who was going to be rolled over like a steamroller. He wanted somebody that didn't know what he was walking into, just like Peter Stravinsky didn't know what he was walking into when he was debating you.

So that began the debates when I contacted, first, because I didn't know you, I contacted

Bill Webster and he said, oh no, no, no, you don't want me, you want James White. And that's when the infamous phone call took place when

I called you and I was going on for about five minutes. I'd really love to have you come out to Long Island and do a debate, blah, blah, blah, blah.

How did you get this number? Yeah, there was a bit of a pause in, how did you get this number?

Because we had just changed the number because, interestingly enough, of a Roman Catholic fellow who was calling and bothering me.

Was that Scott Butler by any chance? I'm not naming any names. But anyway, so the debates took off, had really great crowds.

In fact, if you recall... Well, you didn't know that! No, I didn't know that. That first debate with Jerry, you were as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof.

You were concerned that no one was going to show up and you would put your own money on the table for all this stuff.

So, yeah, you were pretty nervous and we went to eat at the diner there in Baldwin.

Yeah, the Baldwin Coach. And I scared you to death!

Well, I did because I'm sitting here going, well, he's going to walk in and if he's

Jerry, he's going to walk in almost late and he's going to be all disheveled and he's going to get up there and he's going to say, you know, we're moving and all my books are packed up and all

I've been able to do is write a few notes on a notepad while coming here and all I've had to eat is Pepsi and I'm up against James and James is just like David Goliath and you're looking at me like, what on earth?

I remember you looking at me going, no way! All you've known about this guy is what you were told by your

Roman Catholic friends and he didn't sound like he was that pretty. So, you know, you're prowling around but as more and more people start coming in you start relaxing a little bit and then, before Jerry has

I mean, Jerry does get there what, about maybe seven minutes beforehand? Something like that. Right, I was definitely sweating like a pig.

Yeah, yeah. So you get up there and you start your annual comedy routine that you did at the beginning of each debate which we were, you know, the first time around we weren't expecting it and after that we're all sitting there going, okay, what's

Chris going to come up with this year? Like, is this moron my brother? Stuff like that. So you get up there and you've got

I'm not sure if the people in the audience even wanted us to debate they just wanted you to keep going. It was pretty good.

These guys are going to be boring after that. But, definitely broke the ice and I loved the note that you read that you said was from your wife about, you didn't say that you said you get in these notes and how terrible and horrible this is and how hateful and pick up some milk and bread on the way home.

And everybody's just almost falling out of their chairs because everybody thought that was real. That one you did really, really well because everybody thought, oh yeah.

That sounds like what somebody would do and then when you added the thing at the end everybody's like, oh, good grief, we'll never believe a thing this guy has to say ever again.

People will have to watch the video to understand what you're talking about. They will, yeah. But the point is that Jerry gets up and I remember

I looked around the room and found you and you're staring at me with your mouth hanging open because I had pretty much given his the very first few minutes of his statement was

I've had Diet Coke and my books are all packed up and I've scribbled some notes on a yellow pad and I'm like David and Goliath here and it was exactly what

I said it was going to be. And I think that's when you finally started to relax a good bit was because you're like okay,

I think he might have this handled if he had him nailed that badly then he'll probably be okay.

And we did have a good group that night and if I recall correctly one of the more interesting audience questions came from Hamza Abdul -Malik.

I think he was there that first night. Yes, he was there for several of them at least. He was, yeah. And we ended up doing that debate in 1999.

he's now off and I don't know what as far as where he is now. But anyway,

I started there and then I think the next year was Jerry again, wasn't it?

Yes, it was. Yeah, so we did two years and then it was Pakliff, if I recall correctly.

And I think those were all there in Baldwin, weren't they? Yes, I think

Peter Stravinskis was the first Catholic debater that we had at the Huntington townhouse.

Yeah, I think you're right. Well, wait a minute. No, because I think

I debated St. Genes before I debated At the Huntington townhouse? At the Huntington townhouse.

Because I know at least one of the debates at St. Genes was at the Coral House. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. We did the math. That's right. That's right. So you may be right. I don't remember.

I have some vivid memories of the Huntington townhouse for that debate with Stravinskis.

I remember Summer was there and this was before Summer was all that crazy about apologetics, not like she is now.

And I was like, Hey, Summer, great to see you. Whatever. And I remember at the end of the

Stravinskis debate you came in like a knight in shining armor to rescue you,

Stravinskis, from a nut job. I hope you're not too insulted if you're listening.

This guy who used to come to all the debates, maybe he stopped after that one, but he was a

Unitarian Messianic Jew. In fact, I would even say an

Aryan, if I'm not mistaken. But he used to always ask questions, no matter what the topic of the debate was on the

Trinity. And he'd be like, oh, here he goes. But he was like right in Stravinskis' face.

He was. He was getting really obnoxious, really rude, and I knew how the knight had gone.

I knew he wanted to get out of there. I didn't have anything against the guy. But you've got to tell the story because some of the background is actually found in when you first contacted him and what he said when you told him who he'd be debating.

Remember? Yes, I do. In fact, Roberts and Janus, when they were on good terms,

Robert would never in a million years promote or recommend Fr. Peter Stravinskis today.

And I say that because I don't want to get Robert upset if he's listening because I don't want to connect the two of them unnecessarily.

But Roberts and Janus was unavailable. And I said who do you recommend that I get to do this?

Oh, you've got to get Fr. Peter Stravinskis. You've definitely got to get him. So I contacted him and it was on his cell phone and he happened to be in the liquor store which obviously

I could have been calling many Presbyterians and Lutherans or even Reformed Baptists and it would be the same thing.

Like the old joke goes Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know this one. Catholics don't recognize

Sola Scriptura. You have Presbyterians who don't recognize

Believer Baptism by immersion only. And Baptists don't recognize each other at the line at the liquor store.

But anyway. But I called him and I said Fr. Peter Stravinskis this is

Chris Arnson Robert St. Genes highly recommended you for a debate on Purgatory out on Long Island, New York and I was wondering if you'd be interested.

Who's the character I'll be debating? I said James White and his exact response was

Ha! Harmless! Ha! Harmless, I know. And he had no idea.

He was just going on hearsay. He was going on the descriptions of you from other

Catholic apologists because obviously in fact the Catholics have always been, every year we did those debates they were schizophrenic because they would be telling us that the

Catholic debater destroyed you. And then you would see them on the internet devouring each other, mocking the

Catholic debater as being worthless being inept and so on.

Just like many people who have a side that they're passionate about, they'll speak out of two sides of their mouths.

They don't want to let the opposing side know that they really know that you won.

Oh yeah, that happened every year really. But though my recollection is that Michael Fallon was also there in 2001.

Now that was before I was formally introduced to him. And I had not met him and I had

I don't think I had met him until either the

Robert Sabin debate on the Trinity or another Catholic debate at the

Huntington townhouse but it was several years later. Right, well he was there for that one because he was talking to a

Catholic after the debate. And I did notice that a lot of people stuck around for quite some time.

We didn't get out of there until fairly late that night. And of course everybody from Hope had showed up. There was a whole row of, a couple rows of folks from Hope Format's church that were there.

Yeah, they called themselves the Whiteheads if you remember. Something like that, yeah. And so, but they were wearing yellow if I recall correctly.

Anyway, Mike was talking to this Catholic and this Catholic was going, oh when

Father Stravinskis was speaking it was just so wonderful and peaceful and loving but then when

White would start talking you could see the demons dancing around his head.

You could not possibly, if you have an unbiased opinion, watch that debate and come up with that conclusion.

But the unbiased part was what was not present in this particular guy.

But, so we had done sola scriptura. We had done a Mary debate. That was the first one.

Then we did sola scriptura with Jerry. Then we did the papacy with Pacwa. We did the

Mass with St. Genes. We also did the priesthood,

I think, with Pacwa. But Pacwa, that was at Huntington later on. That was one of the later ones.

That's right, because I remember he came up to us with his cowboy hat on later and goes, y 'all want to get a beer? Well, actually that was at the papacy debate in Baldwin, because he was wearing his pointy cowboy boots and it was almost midnight and we're leaving and I'm like, yeah this sounds like the beginning of a joke.

The Baptist and the Catholic priest walk into a bar in New York. So, yeah.

By the way, our audience should know that you and I both have the highest respect for Mitch Pacwa, even though we have vehement disagreements with him.

Oh, of course. I've done five debates with Mitch and they've all been just top -notch.

And I just wish we still had the videos, I wish Scott Butler hadn't gotten rid of the videotapes of the first two. Because we wouldn't give him $5 ,000 for it.

But anyway, that's another story. So the point is, we had covered a lot of the...

and St. Janice at Huntington was on justification. I think that might have been the year before this, is my recollection.

I'm not sure. But Purgatory was...

I wasn't sure how this was going to go. I wasn't sure how central the topic was, but I think that of all the debates that we've done with Roman Catholics, the issue, the true issue of justification was probably more clearly seen in the debate with Stravinskis on Purgatory.

Yeah, I believe it's... Yeah, I believe that is such a core issue, Purgatory, that separates

Rome from Bible -believing Reformational Christians because it militates...

the dogma of Purgatory militates against the cross, the perfection of Christ's work, and you could go on and on with how it opposes very core scriptural teachings that hinge on the

Gospel. Oh, definitely. Yeah, and that came out, and I think part of the reason it came out...

well, I suppose we should... I mean, I imagine some people in the audience have seen it, but if I recall correctly,

I think he started first, and I think he had the opening statement first, and remember the primary

Protestant that he made reference to as having interacted with on this subject. Jimmy Swagger?

Jimmy Swagger! And people in the audience are looking at me, and I'm looking at people in the audience going, oh boy, this is going to be an interesting evening.

I don't think he had any concept of what a Reformed Baptist was. No, no, and he clearly had not done any preparation in the sense of wanting to find out.

And that came through very, very clearly. He has two PhDs from Ivy League schools, and as with so many other folks that I've debated over the past coming up on this, you know, next...

well, this August will be 30 years that I've been doing debates. I did my first with Jerry in August of 1990 in California.

So, coming up this August, 30 years of debates. 174 so far. It's supposed to be more than that, but thanks to COVID -19, we've had to cancel a number of them.

I was supposed to already have done that now, but in all those debates, over and over again, these people will walk in, and they will not have read a word

I've ever said. They haven't listened to anything. They've done no preparation. None whatsoever. They're not all that way.

And in fact, I don't know if you've seen the debate that I did with Peter Williams. No, in fact, I was waiting for them.

Didn't it take a while for them to be made available? Well, we did the unbelievable radio broadcast, but then we also did the debate in Northern Ireland.

Right, right. On indulgences. And that's been on YouTube forever. Oh, wow. I didn't even realize because I was waiting to watch that.

No, it's been out for like two years ago. And this is something that may shock many of our listeners, even possibly

Roman Catholic listeners, but indulgences are alive and well. This is not something that...

Oh, of course. This is not something that remained in the 16th century and prior. In fact, every time you purchase a mass card for somebody who is mourning the death of a loved one, that money is really an indulgence to lessen the time in purgatory for that person.

Yeah, and Peter Williams defended that, but the point is that Peter reads my stuff and is very well prepared.

He's not like Peter Stravinskis by any stretch of the imagination. He reads my books and tries to understand the perspective.

That makes obviously for a much more interesting debate, but Stravinskis had not and thought he was, you know, just getting into another conversation with a

Jimmy Swagger type person. Meanwhile, you may recall, I am a gadget man, and so I...

I remember! You remember this? Yeah. I looked for it today. I know I still have it.

There's no way I would have thrown it out. I just don't know which box it is. I did find two of my old Palm Pilots, my

Tungsten T5 and stuff like that, which I've got here in my hand, of course, instead of the doornail, but I had these...

I had a handspring visor handheld... back then they were called

PDAs, private digital assistant. So it was before smartphones and stuff like that, but it was sort of a smartphone without the phone part, in essence, is what it was.

And I had my opening statement on that. I had all... I, of course, had read everything he had written on Purgatory.

I mean, he was editor of a... Catholic Answers... not Catholic Answers, but another publication with a similar name.

And so I had... I had read all of his articles and all the rest of stuff. I knew exactly where he'd be coming from, because that's how you prepare for debates, if you respect the audience, first of all, and if you have any respect for the person you're debating, which a lot of people don't have for the people they're debating.

So I knew exactly where he was coming from. And so I get up there and I give a presentation, and he doesn't even know what to do with it.

Because he doesn't really understand Reformed theology, he doesn't know exactly where I'm coming from, but it's obvious that I'm not

Jimmy Swagger. Right. I think he thought all evangelicals were easy believism types, that you could live like Satan himself, and you would still go to heaven just because you went up for an altar call or something.

Right, right, basically. And so to encounter a balanced Reformed understanding and one based upon exegesis and stuff like that, so even his rebuttal didn't really touch on what

I had said, because he didn't really know how to do that. He sort of just defaulted back to what he expected and hoped for the best.

Well, once we got into cross -examination, cross -ex, I didn't know this,

I never took a class on debating, I don't think there were any offered any place I went to school anyway, but I never took a class on debate or anything like that, and the first few debates

I did early, early on, you know, the question -answer cross -examination time was just sort of something you sort of stumbled into, but over time

I realized this is where the debate takes place, this is where the wheels are going to fall off, if the wheels are going to fall off, this is where it needs to happen.

And so I put a whole lot more emphasis and energy into preparation for the cross -examination period.

And so, we have on YouTube, if you don't want to watch the whole two and a half hour, three hour, however long,

I forgot to look at it here, how long it is, if you don't want to necessarily go there, then you can find the shorter versions, this is three hours and twenty minutes long, no wonder he wanted to leave.

I mean, he was literally pulling at his collar. He pulled on his collar more than Rodney Dangerfield. And at the end of the debate, he didn't even want to physically touch the video that Rich was trying to give him of the master of the debate.

He wanted nothing to do with it. Yeah, well, he wasn't going to make it available, that's for sure. So, there is a, if you scroll down on YouTube after you put

Peter Stravinskas in, there's a video titled Cross -Examination on 1 Corinthians 3 in Purgatory, posted 13 years ago.

And then right below that is Pay Me Now, Pay Me Later, and right below that, Who is the Blessed Man? Those three were really the, to me, the most important things that came out that evening.

Well, I'm going to, before we go to our midway, not our midway break, our first break, I should say, I'm going to play the infamous

Pay Now or Pay Later clip from this debate. And this begins, as I said earlier, with a wise guy in the audience.

This is the audience Q &A. This is technically after the debate. Yes. Well, I mean, it's still a part.

Well, I know, but I mean, we're done talking. Right, yeah, this is a wise guy, a Protestant, in the audience who, very clever in what he did, but it was obviously, he's being a little bit of a wise guy here, but here we go.

For me, a Catholic Bible, empromata, seal and stamped, I'm reading two sentences from the book of Tobit.

Tobit chapter 4, verses 10 will be my first sentence.

For almsgiving delivers from death and saves men from passing down to darkness.

The second sentence I'd like to read is from Tobit chapter 12, verses 9.

Almsgiving saves from death and purges every kind of sin.

My question is, this is a book that the Catholics have held as being inspired.

Given the emphasis you have made with purgatory, it appears to me that every good

Catholic seems to have the option, instead of going to purgatory, to perhaps write a check or do alms of some kind.

That will also purge them. Yeah, it's pay now or pay later, very simply.

So you can write a check now to avoid purgatory? The New Testament tells us charity covers a multitude of sins.

What is that fee? Because I think you'd get a few checks probably. What would that amount be? Okay, Reverend White, do you have a response as well?

The term charity is actually the term love, not the giving of money in the New Testament.

And I, what can I say? If our view of sin is such that giving alms can cover sins, why did

Christ die upon the cross? Next question.

There you have it. And in fact, it reminds me that this debate with Fr.

Peter Stravinskas is the first of two debates that nearly developed into lawsuits against you.

Oh yeah, that's right. You're right. Fr. Stravinskas and Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Churches.

You have gotten me into a lot of trouble, Chris. And by the way, I heard you describing my role in the debates on the dividing line where you said, oh, we never want

Chris to do any of the moderation. People automatically think, they constantly come to me and say, oh,

I saw you moderate that debate, that debate. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I emceed it, which is a big difference between moderating.

First of all, I never wanted to moderate. I wanted to sit back and enjoy watching. I didn't want to be caught up in having to time things and all that kind of thing.

But there was one debate that I did moderate, if you may recall, and that was the infamous debate that you had with my friend

Jim Barker. And that may have been one of the reasons that you never wanted me to moderate a debate.

It is true, especially since it ended up spitting all over the front row of everybody. And I said,

Brother Barker, please stop drooling on the microphone. Love you,

Jim, if you're listening. But anyway, we're going to our first commercial break.

If you have a question on purgatory when we come back, I'd like you to define this, because there are a lot of people, both

Protestant and Catholic. I mean, I learned more about Catholicism arranging these debates with you all these years, since 1995, than I ever learned as a

Roman Catholic. Going to eight years of Catholic school and being an altar boy. I was still ignorant about a lot of what the

Roman Catholic Church teaches, as are quite a number of friends of mine who are

Catholic. I remember even one of my friends, who is a very militant

Roman Catholic, he actually thought the Immaculate Conception was referring to Christ.

Christ's conception in Mary's womb, and he was baffled that I was very opposed to the teaching.

And I said, no, Bob, it has nothing to do with that. It's Mary's Immaculate Conception in her mother's womb.

He had no idea. But anyway, a lot of people may be confused, or in the dark, about purgatory.

They may think, especially our ecumenist friends, may think, oh, this is just an alternative understanding of the afterlife.

There's so much mystery about the afterlife. This is just one more thing we could add to the discussion.

There's no big deal about it. But they could not be more wrong, as you will be more precise in defining it when we come back.

If anybody would like to join us on the air, chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

We'll be right back with Dr. James R. White. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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