April 8, 2020 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Purgatory Revisited 20 Years After the White vs. Stravinskas Debate on Long Island, NY”

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Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this eighth day of April 2020.

And I am so thrilled to have back as a returning guest one of my favorite guests one of my closest friends. The man who was my very first guest on the very first broadcast of iron sharpens iron radio in 2005 and also the very first guest on iron sharpens iron radio when we relaunched the program in 2015 the man to whom I gave a sense of humor when he was nothing but a lifeless corpse in the area of humor.

It's dr. James R. White co-founder.

Excuse me.

Co-founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Today. I was originally under the assumption that it was the 20th near the 20th anniversary. But I've just discovered it is nearly the 19th anniversary of A debate that I arranged for dr. White at the Huntington townhouse on Long Island on the doctrine of purgatory The Roman Catholic teaching of purgatory.

This was a debate with Father Peter Stravinskis and it has become a debate that has gone down in infamy particularly because of.

One.

Incident during the debate provoked by a wise guy a Protestant wise guy in the audience and This is a I think has put Peter Stravinskis on the map much more than anything else. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back brother.

Remembering the White vs. Stravinskas Debate on Purgatory

Yes, what. But I I think there was a whole lot more to it. I mean that was he was at that point really an unhappy camper. Yes, and wanted to be anywhere other than where he was.

Yes.

So that's sort of where that came from for me if you go on YouTube, which I think is wonderful. But if you scroll down a little bit more we've put port that one being one of them. But for me the cross-examination when I was.

Oh, of course. But you should you should give some background at one location. Carl house in Baldwin in Baldwin, right. And then we had moved right? Yes to the.

Huntington townhouse because at that time We were packing out the Coral House. It had a much smaller venue. They could seat a maximum of 500 people and we had a lot of people standing up and I said to myself well, it's time to move and the Huntington townhouse could see a thousand and So we moved there that by the way, it's a tragedy.

But that That facility the Huntington townhouse no longer exists. Was raised to the ground and it's a like a parking lot or something but The debates for our listeners who don't know the history of the debates I have a very good Roman Catholic friend a real right-wing Roman Catholic friend not Exactly a traditionalist.

I don't think he's a Latin right only guy, but he is on the border of that and He used to have barbecues at his home in Baldwin Long Island and his sole purpose of having these barbecues and gatherings and parties was to have evangelicals and Roman Catholics eat drink and argue and Bob Posh and I were always the last ones left in his living room.

And I was typically just sitting there laughing while he was Getting very upset in his face would be turning beet red and veins popping out of his forehead and neck and and our wives my late wife Julie and Bob's wife Mary Lou sweet sweet lady.

They'd be off in the kitchen afraid of us cowering in terror Because of what was going on but there was a gentleman by the name of Greg Lloyd An Eastern right Roman Catholic, which is an interesting sect within Roman Catholicism, although they would never call themselves that they they follow some of the ceremonial Practices that the Eastern Orthodox do but they have Rome's dogma.

They were they were welcomed into the Official Church of Rome. I don't know how many years ago, but Greg Lloyd Approached me and said You know, I want you to get a pastor. To debate Jerry manatees who is a former Presbyterian who became Roman Catholic?

Jerry's gonna be on Long Island speaking at Catholic churches and I would love to get have you get a pastor. He kept stressing a pastor to debate Jerry and you know, he wanted somebody who was going to be rolled over like a steamroller Right.

He wanted somebody that Didn't know what he was walking into just like Peter Stravinsky's didn't know what he was walking into when he was debating you. But so that began the debates when I when I contacted first because I didn't know you I contacted Bill Webster.

And he said oh no, no, no, no, no, you don't want me you want James White and That's when the infamous phone call took place when I called you and I was going on for about five minutes. No, I'd really love to have you come out the long.

I want to do a debate blah blah blah blah. How did you get this number.

Was that Scott Butler.

But anyway, so the debates took off had really great crowds. In fact, if you recall, but you didn't know that. No, I didn't know that that first that first. Yeah, the Baldwin coach. Yeah, and.

I scared you to death.

I.

Did because you're going well, you know I walk in and be all disheveled there and he's gonna say oh, you know. Like David Goliath and and you're looking at me like what on earth I remember I remember.

You're looking at me going no way. Because all you've known about this guy is what is what you were told by a Roman Catholic friend. Oh, you know and you're you're proud before Jerry has like that. I was definitely sweating like a pig.

Yeah. Yeah and. So you get up there and. You know first time around we're like, okay, what what like is this moron? So you get up there and you you've got you've got. I'm not sure the people in the audience even wanted us to debate.

They just want you to keep going. Very good. These guys are gonna be boring after that. I definitely broke the ice and your wife. You didn't say that you said you you didn't get these notes and how terrible and horrible this is and and everybody.

Everybody thought I was real that that one you did. That sounds like what somebody would do and then when you've done when you added the thing at the end. There's like oh good grief will never believe a thing people will have to watch the video to understand what you tell me.

They will they they will yeah. Yeah, so but the point is that Jerry gets up and I remember. Looked around the room and found you and you're staring at me with your mouth hanging open. Because I had pretty much.

Given his the very first few was I appear and and it was exact and I think that's when you finally Think you might have this handled if he if he had him nailed that badly. And we did have a good group that night and if I recall correctly one of the more interesting audience questions Abdul Malik.

I think he was there that first. Yes. He was there for several of them at least was yeah.

Yeah, and we ended up doing that debate in 1999. So he's now off and out. But anyway, so yeah, I started there and then I think the next the next year was Jerry again, wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

Yeah, we so we did two years and then it was Pacwa if I recall correctly, and I think those were all there in Involvement, weren't they?

Yes, I think Peter Stravinsky's was the first Catholic debater that we had at the at the Huntington town. I think yeah.

I think you're right. Yeah. Well, wait a minute. No, because I think I debated in Jenna at the Huntington townhouse at the.

Because I know at least one of the debates of syngenesis at the Coral House.

Hmm. Yeah, that's right. That's right. We did the math. That's right. That's right. So you may be right. I'm I'm not but six seems like I don't. I don't remember five. I have some vivid memories of.

The Huntington townhouse for that Debate with Stravinsky's. I remember summer was there and this is. Oh, yeah. This was before summer was all that crazy about apologetics. Not like she is now. And I was like, hey summer great to see ya, whatever.

And I remember at the end of the Stravinsky's debate.

You.

Came in like a a knight in shining armor to rescue Stravinsky's from from a nutjob this guy. Oh, I hope you're not too insulted if you're listening, but. This guy who used to come to all of the debates and maybe he stopped after that one.

But he was a he was a Unitarian Messianic Messianic Jew. In fact, I would even say an Aryan if I'm not mistaken. But he used to always ask questions no matter what the topic of the debate was on the Trinity, right?

And we'd be like, oh, here he goes, but he but he was like right in Stravinsky's face.

He was really obnoxious really rude and I knew how the night had gone. I knew he wanted to get out of there. I didn't have anything against the guy. But you've got to tell the story. Some of the background is actually found in when you first contacted him and what he said when you told him who he'd be debating.

Remember.

In fact Roberts and Janice when they were on good terms Robert would never in a million years Promote or recommend father free father Peter Stravinsky's today and I say that because I don't want to get Robert upset if he's listening because I don't want to connect the two of them unnecessarily, but Roberts and Janice was unavailable and He I said, well, who do you recommend that I get to do this?

Oh, you got to get feeder father Peter Stravinsky's. He's definitely got to get him. So I contacted him and It was on a cell phone and he happened to be in the liquor store, which Obviously I could have been calling many Presbyterians and Lutherans or even reformed Baptists and it would be the same thing.

Like the old joke goes.

We all know this.

Catholics don't recognize Sola Scriptura. You have Presbyterians who don't recognize believer baptism by immersion only and Baptists don't recognize each other at the line at the liquor store. What? But but.

I Called him and I said father Peter Stravinsky's. This is Chris Arnes and Roberts and Janice highly recommended you for a debate on purgatory. I out on Long Island, New York, and I was wondering if you'd be interested.

Who's the character? I'll be debating Said James White and his exact responses. And he had no idea he might he was just going on hearsay. He was going on right the descriptions of you. From other Catholic apologists.

Because obviously. You know, in fact the Catholics have always been every year. We did those debates. They were schizophrenic. Because they would be telling us.

That.

The Catholic debater destroyed you and then you would see them on the Internet Devouring each other mocking the Catholic debater as being worthless and not, you know being inept and so on. So Just like many people who have a side that they're passionate about they'll speak out of two sides of their mouths.

They don't want to let the Opponent opposing side know that they really know that you won. Now that was before I was formally introduced to him and I had not met him and I had I Don't think I had met him until either The Robert Sabin debate on the Trinity or Or another Catholic debate at the Huntington townhouse, but it was it was a several years later, right?

Well, he was there for that one because he was talking to. I did notice that the a lot of people stuck around for quite some time. We didn't get out there till fairly late that night and Of course everybody from hope it but yeah, they called themselves the Whiteheads if you remember something like that.

Yeah, and so but they were wearing yellow if I recall correctly, but Anyway, Mike was talking to oh.

And that you could you could not possibly. If you have an unbiased opinion watch that debate and come up with that conclusion because well.

Yeah, but but the unbiased part was what was not was about present, right? Right, so we had done solo scriptura. We had done we had done a married debate and we did that we did.

We also did the the priesthood I think with Pacwa but but back with that.

But that was it later.

That's right. Because I remember he came up to us with his cowboy hat on. Later goes y 'all want to get a beer.

Well, actually that was. This is interesting. That was after the papacy debate in Baldwin. Okay, and it was almost midnight and we're leaving and I'm like, yeah. This sounds like the beginning of a of a gym to a bar in New York.

You know Yeah.

By the way, our audience should know that you and I both have the highest respect for Mitch Pacwa even though we have vehement disagreements with him. Oh, of course, of course.

I've done five debates with Mitch and they've all been Just top-notch and I just wish we still had wish we had the video the wish Scott Butler hadn't gotten rid of video tape. That's $30 ,000 for it.

But anyway, that's another stuff. The point is we had covered a lot of the and and Syngenta at Huntington. I think that might have been the year before. This is my recollection. I'm not sure. Purgatory, you know, I wasn't sure how this was going to go.

I wasn't sure how central the topic was but I I think That of all the debates that we drew issue of justification was probably more clearly seen in the debate with driven story.

Yeah, I believe it's like any of the other. Yeah, I believe that is such a core issue purgatory that separates Rome from Bible-believing Reformational Christians because it militates the the dogma of purgatory militates against the cross the perfection of Christ's work and You could go on and on with how it opposes.

Very core scriptural teachings that hinge on the gospel.

Oh, yeah, and I and that came out and I and I think part of the reason it came out. Well, I mean, I imagine some people in the audience if I recall correctly, I think he started first. I think he had the opening statement.

Remember the primary Protestant that he made reference to. Jimmy Swagger. Jimmy Swagger and people in the audience are looking at me and I'm looking at people in the audience going. Oh.

Boy, this is gonna be an interesting evening. I don't think he had any concept.

What a reformed Baptist was. No, no, and he clearly had not done any Preparation in the sense of wanting to find out and that came through very very clearly. He has two PhDs from Ivy League school that you know next gift of 1990.

More than that. But thanks to kovat 19. We've had to cancel a number of. I was supposed to work in all those debates. Over and over again, these people will walk in and they will not have read of none whatsoever that they're not all that way.

And in fact, I don't know if you've seen the debate that I did with Peter Williams.

No, in fact, I was waiting for them. We're gonna take a while for them to be made available.

Well, we did that we did the Unbelievable radio broadcast, but then we also did the debate in Northern Ireland, right? Right on indulgence and that's been on YouTube forever. Oh, wow.

I didn't I didn't even realize because I was waiting to watch that. And this is something that may shock Many of our listeners even possibly Roman Catholic listeners, but indulgences are alive and well.

This is not something that oh, of course that this is not something that remained in the 16th century and prior.

In.

Fact every time you purchase a mass card for somebody who is mourning the death of a loved one though that money is Really an indulgence to lessen the time and purgatory for that person.

Yeah, and and Peter Williams, you know defended that and you know. But the point is that Peter reads my stuff and is that makes obviously for a much more Stravinsky's had not you know, just getting into another conversation with Jimmy meanwhile.

You may recall I I am a gadget man. And so I. Yeah, I look for it today, I know. I still have it. There's no way I would have thrown it out. I just don't know which box. I did find two of my old pom-pom T5 and stuff like that, which I've got here in my hand.

Of course, I had these. I had a handspring back then. They were called PDAs public. So it's before I thought it was before smartphones and stuff like that. But it was sort of a smartphone without the phone part and I had my opening statement.

Another publication had similar error for debates if you respect the audience first and so I Get up there and I give a present for theology. Doesn't know exactly right?

Oh, I think he thought all evangelicals were easy Believism types that you could write you could live like Satan himself and you would still go to heaven just because you went up for an.

Multicore or something right one based on exegesis and stuff like that. So even his rebuttal Didn't really touch home that he he sort of just defaulted back to what he expected and hoped for the best.

Well, once we got in the cross cross X, I didn't know this. I never took a class on debating out the way but on on debate like that and the first few debates I did early early on sort of stumbled into but over time I realized this is where the debate takes place.

Have on YouTube how long it is. No wonder he wanted to leave I mean he was literally pulling at his collar.

He pulled on his collar more than Rodney Dangerfield and and at the end of the debate he didn't even want to physically touch the video that rich was trying to give him of the. The master of the of the debate he had.

He wanted nothing to do with it.

Yeah, well he wasn't gonna make it. There is a if you scroll down on YouTube after then right below that who is the Blessed man. Yes things that came out that that evening.

Well, I'm going to before we go to our midway not our midway break our first break. I should say I'm going to play the infamous pay now or pay later. Clip from this debate and this begins as I said earlier.

With a wise guy and you know, this is the audience Q &A. This is technically after the debate. Yes.

Well, I mean, it's still a part. I know but I mean, we're done right? Yeah, this is a wise guy. Protestant in the audience. Who. I've looked very clever and what he did, but it was obviously. He's being a little bit of a wise guy here.

But here we go.

For me a Catholic Bible and Pramada Seal and stamped. I'm reading two sentences from the book of Tobit. Tobit chapter 4 verses 10 would be my first sentence for almsgiving. Delivers from death and saves men from passing down to darkness.

The second sentence I'd like to read is from Tobit chapter 12 verses 9. Almsgiving saves from death and purges every kind of sin. My question is. This is a book that the Catholics have held as being inspired Given the emphasis you have made with purgatory.

It appears to me that Every good Catholic seems to have the option instead of going to purgatory to perhaps Write a check or do alms of some kind that will also purge them. Yeah, it's pay now or pay later.

Very simply so you can write a check now to avoid purgatory.

The New Testament tells us charity covers a multitude of sins.

What is that fee. Because I think you'd get a few checks probably. What would that amount be?

Okay, Reverend why'd you have a response as well. The term Charity is actually the term love not the giving of money in the New Testament. And I What can I say? If if our view of sin is such.

That.

Giving alms can cover sins.

Why did Christ die upon the cross. Next question? There you have it and.

In fact, it reminds me that this debate with father Peter Stravinsky's is The first of two debates that nearly developed into lawsuits against.

Oh, yeah, that's right. You're right.

Father Stravinsky's and Barry Lynn of United Americans United for separation. And by the way, I heard you Describing my role in the debates on the dividing line where you said, oh, we never want Chris to do any of the moderation.

People.

Automatically think well, they constantly come to me and say oh I saw you moderate that debate that debate and like no. No, no, I am seed it which is a big difference between Moderating. First of all, I never wanted to moderate.

I wanted to sit back and enjoy watching, you know I didn't want to be a little caught up in having to time things and all that kind of thing. But there was one Debate that I did moderate if you may recall and that was the infamous debate that you had with my friend.

Yes, Jim Barker. And that may have been one of the reasons that you never wanted me to moderate it. And I said brother Barker, please stop Julie. Love you Jim if you're listening. But anyway, we're going to our first Commercial break if you have a question on purgatory when we come back,.

I'd like you to Define this because you know, there are a lot of people both Protestant and Catholic. I mean I learned more about Catholicism. Doing arranging these debates with you all these years since 1995 than I ever learned as a Roman Catholic.

Going to eight years of Catholic school and being an altar boy I was still ignorant about a lot of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches as are Quite a number of friends of mine who are Catholic. I remember even One of my friends who was a very militant Roman Catholic.

He actually thought The Immaculate Conception was referring to Christ.

Christ's.

Conception in Mary's womb and He was what he was baffled that I was Very opposed to the teaching I said Tom Bob. It's not has nothing to do with that. It's Mary's Immaculate conception and her mother's womb.

He had no idea. But anyway, a lot of people may be confused or in the dark about purgatory. They may think especially that our Ecumenist friends may think oh, this is just an alternative Understanding of the afterlife.

There's so much mystery about the afterlife. This is just one more thing We could add to the discussion. There's no big deal about it. But they could not be more wrong as you will will be more Precise and defining it.

When we come back if anybody would like to join us on the air Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and as always give us your first name city and state and Country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves Personal and private matter.

We'll be right back with dr. James R white.

The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory and Its Development

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