June 10, 2024 Show with Keith Allen on “The Importance of Building Relationships Between Pastors & Local Churches”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of June 2024.

Before I introduce today's guest and topic, I have a big heartfelt shout out to Pete Hegseth of Fox News for including

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio last Friday in his week of promotion for his new book,

The War on Warriors, Behind the Betrayal of the Men Who Keep Us Free.

A very fascinating book, fascinating conversation with Pete Hegseth, and I strongly urge everybody listening to listen to the audio link of that interview on the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio website when you get the opportunity, especially if you did not hear it live on Friday.

And it's truly an honor that he, of all the programs and podcasts available to him in the

United States, I was included in that week of promotion for his book. So thanks a lot,

Pete, and we hope you return to the program for another interview. But today, I'm excited to have on the program a returning guest.

His name is Pastor Keith Allen. He's the senior pastor of Linbrook Baptist Church in Linbrook, Long Island, New York, which is in Nassau County, Long Island, New York.

And most of you, if not all of you, who listen regularly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio should recognize that name, in fact, both the name of that pastor and the name of that church because they advertise every day on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And today, we are going to be addressing, I believe, a very important theme.

The theme is the importance of building relationships between pastors and local churches and the dangers of ecclesiastical isolationism.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Keith Allen. Good to be back here again with you,

Chris. Why don't you tell our listeners something more about Linbrook Baptist Church? Linbrook Baptist Church, well, we're in the heart of Linbrook.

We are a church that has been established for about 115 years.

Turn the corner into a new life. I took this post in October. We are a

Christ -centered church. We love our community. We love the Lord, and we love the

Word of God. And we are just seeking to understand the Word, hear the

Word, and live according to it, to the glory of God. Very diverse congregation, number of families, number of older saints, number of people in the middle, and the

Lord is just doing a wonderful thing here, bringing people together under the Word of Jesus Christ.

And I could honestly say to our listeners, without being guilty of flattery or exaggeration or hyperbole, that Pastor Keith Allen is really a truly gifted proclaimer of the gospel and of God's Word, and I heartily recommend him and Linbrook Baptist Church to anyone in that area who does not already have a biblically faithful church home.

So please, if you live anywhere in Nassau County or even

Queens and Brooklyn, the Bronx, or if you're traveling through the

Linbrook area, perhaps on business or on vacation, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones in that area, make sure you write down the website for this fine congregation, linbrookbaptist .org,

linbrookbaptist .org, and Linbrook is spelt L -Y -N, brookbaptist .org.

And some of you may recognize the name Linbrook because it was the hometown of Ray Romano in the sitcom

Everybody Loves Raymond, and he and his wife and children and his in -laws lived in the sitcom, that is, in Linbrook, and so that's probably put them on the map more than anything.

Well, we are discussing something that there are churches out there.

I am aware of some of them. I have met some of their pastors who do not believe in the importance of what we're talking about today, the importance of building relationships between pastors and local churches, and that means those churches outside of the pastor's own congregation and the dangers of ecclesiastical isolationism.

Can you tell us what was the compelling reason, or reasons plural, why this was weighing on your heart enough to want to discuss it today?

Well, first reason, brother, is because I'm just rejoicing in the benefit that I myself have received from fellowship and friendship and regular discourse with other pastors and other brothers and other churches in our area, both near and more far.

There is a pastor's fellowship that gathers at North Shore Baptist Church, where I was raised up and trained and discipled, that still meets and I still meet with them, just like -minded brothers who want to serve together and encourage one another, and through that fellowship, there have been so many helpful and fruitful relationships made, counsel received, word shared, churches planted, pulpits filled, and it's all, it's not even denominational, it's just brothers who love one another, who are in relationship and want to push the gospel forward together.

So there's a huge benefit there, just in that sense. Well, one of the huge benefits to Lindbergh Baptist Church was being involved in the very thing that you are promoting today that led to you becoming the pastor.

That's right, that's right. Just one of the many things that the Lord has done through those associations.

The second thing, why it was burning on my mind, is because I was preaching through Mark chapter 9,

I just preached this Sunday, where John says to Jesus, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to stop him because he was not following us.

But Jesus said, don't stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me, for the one who is not against us is for us.

Truly I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.

And what Jesus is countering is the disciples arguing with one another over who's the greatest while they're on the road.

And he's telling them whoever would be first should be last of all and servant of all. So he's pressing this message of humble cooperation among his disciples.

And as I was thinking about how do we apply this in the modern day, this is one of the ways that we do that.

Everybody who rightly holds to the gospel and is a born again

Christian, there is some sense in which we ought to humbly cooperate with one another for the sake of the gospel and find ways to do that.

And so fellowship and regular discourse between pastors and church leaders who are gospel focused and Jesus centered is a thing that Jesus commends, right, is a thing that Jesus desires and so we ought to pursue it for the glory of his name and for the furthering of his cause.

Now what in your counsel to pastors listening, they may be even new pastors that were recently called and appointed and installed to a local congregation, or they might even have been a pastor at a particular congregation for decades, but they have come to realize that they have failed miserably in this area.

So tell us your words of counsel, first of all, how to initially get the ball rolling.

What would you recommend they do as far as becoming more acquainted with the men of God that may be pastoring in the reasonably close area and so on?

I would say just reach out. The first step is just an attempt at contact, something that I've seen many good church planters and revitalizers do when these brothers have gone into new areas, one of their first efforts is to go and see what other churches are there and to try to make contact either through email or by phone and say,

I am coming into the neighborhood. I'm looking to do some gospel work. I see that you're a church and I would love to talk to you, glean some knowledge and wisdom that you have of the neighborhood, get to understand what your ministry in life is like, and perhaps there's an opportunity for partnership and mutual encouragement or just a nice cup of coffee and getting to know somebody for a minute.

And there is a balancing act that all

Christians have to be involved in when you are seeking to have fellowship with those in the body of Christ that are outside of your own congregation.

On the one hand, you don't want to completely ignore those folks who are either pastoring or members of churches that you would find to be unfaithful to the scriptures and so on that perhaps if it's a real extreme situation where they're literally heretics outside of the faith, you have to look at them as a mission field.

But at the same time, there are people within the body of Christ that have differences with us.

They may be even very important differences. But at the same time, those differences don't necessarily have to prevent friendships and areas of fellowship.

When I got saved in the 1980s, I happened to be a

Reformed Baptist. As you know, confessional Reformed Baptists have always been a member of a confessional

Reformed Baptist church. From the point of my rebirth, I was raised

Roman Catholic, of course, and came to believe that that was a false church and still believe that.

But as a Reformed Baptist, especially in the 80s and perhaps a good portion of the 1990s, you would very rarely, if ever at all, see interaction between Reformed Baptists and not only run -of -the -mill evangelical

Arminian pastors, but especially not charismatic or Pentecostal pastors. And I got, through the providence of God, I began meeting and growing in my friendship with some of these brethren in those kinds of churches, discovered a couple of them that even though they were

Pentecostal pastors, were full -blown Five -Point Calvinists in agreement with the most essential things that I believe, and yet recognizing that they had differences over issues with me.

And it even reached the point—and I'm not bragging here, but just looking back at my history, my friendships with these men led to other

Reformed Baptists—led to Reformed Baptists pastors of other churches, and even my own church, the pastors of my own church—who began inviting these men to speak from their pulpit, like it was a history -making event.

But so, don't we have to be careful on both ends? That's why I said it's a balancing act.

Of course, you don't want to invite people into your pulpit that have such huge differences from you that you are endangering the flock spiritually, but at the same time, we have to recognize that we can learn, even from men of God that have differences with us, sometimes even on areas that are serious.

I don't take lightly the differences that we have with Charismatics and Pentecostals on the sign gifts and so on, but at the same time,

I have learned immensely from people in those congregations. That's right.

I think that's part of what the Lord even intends by, in His sovereignty, allowing these differences to persist among us, to exist among us, is that we ought to learn how to love one another despite our differences because that's an inviolable command, that if you are in the

Lord Jesus Christ, you must love your brethren. And it doesn't say only love the ones who think just like you or who line up with you completely doctrinally.

So it's something that we must do, and everything that we must do is for our good. And to glean, because we think about things from different angles and through different lenses and these differences we have, different churches and pastors have different strengths that we can contribute to one another because of the sides that we're coming from.

So I think it's incumbent upon us to walk those lines, being cautious, but seeking for the glory of the

Lord Jesus to get the most that we can out of our relationships with our brothers and our sisters.

And the sad commentary is that even some of the pastors within our own circles of theological fellowship don't really have a great interest in spending much time with men in other pastoral positions at other churches, even if they're in lockstep agreement theologically.

They just—they have formed, as the subtitle of our discussion is today, the dangers of ecclesiastical isolationism.

There are brethren that I know that act as if their church is the center of the universe, and they completely ignore anything that's going on.

They don't want to attend conferences or special events that other churches are having, let alone promote them to their own flock.

And of course, there's always that fear of people—that pastors may have of losing members of their flock to another church, and it becomes a numbers game with some.

But tell us about some of the benefits in more detail that you believe are—or should

I say may, by God's blessing, be the outcome and the fruit of these kinds of relationships to be developed with other pastors and churches in the community.

I think one of the most significant ones is being able to talk to someone who understands your position and experience.

You know, often when you read about pastoring, you read the pastoring books, you read the pastoring surveys, one of the common refrains is that pastors are lonely.

And it's an easy place to get isolated when you're giving time to prayer and the ministry of the

Word, and you're visiting and you're serving the congregation. It can feel like you don't have the time to have a friendship or have a coffee or go to this conference or do all these things.

For me, I was raised, in a sense, with a silver spoon in my mouth in the church, where the place that I landed,

North Shore Baptist Church, as a young believer, the pastor there, Ed Moore, already had this culture going on.

And so from the beginning, I was just watching youth camps get set up with different pastors from different churches and all these young kids being brought together to be instructed in the discipline and admonition of the

Lord. I watched other pastors come in and share the pulpit with us and bring their people and us getting to meet other believers from other churches, knowing that you're not the only ones, but there are others out there who are pursuing the same things.

It's just immensely encouraging. And so when you think about it from a pastoral point of view, to talk to someone else who knows the difficulties and the struggles and the trials and the joys of your position, there's just something immensely refreshing and helpful.

And then they can help give you counsel and advice and suggestions that get you out of your own little cubbyhole in your head of how you think and what you see.

And comprehending with all the brethren, Paul prays for the church to know the love of Christ. It takes many to get this full -orbed view of how incredible Jesus Christ is.

And with anything lesser than that, still, there is a benefit of having others to give their input and their viewpoint that help you to get a better, a fuller -orbed view of, in this particular case, ministry and ministry matters.

Yes. And we're going to go to our first commercial break. And if you have a question of your own for Pastor Keith Allen on our subject, send in your email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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And there may be those kinds of questions that arise since we do have a pastor on the show.

And we would invite you to request to be anonymous if indeed it would be the most wise thing to do not to call or bring attention to your identity publicly regarding what you are going to ask.

But it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And don't go away. We'll be right back with Keith Allen, pastor of Lindbrook Baptist Church, right after these messages.

I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.

At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear

God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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It's royaldiadem .com. Mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church in Nassau County, Long Island, New York.

And our theme today, I think, is a very important one. I believe all of my themes are important, but this one is uniquely important to the importance of building relationships between pastors and local churches and the dangers of ecclesiastical isolationism.

One of the things that makes this important to me is the appreciation

I have for, when I got saved, and I was a new

Christian especially, the great benefit that I had sitting at the feet of a pastor,

Mike Gaydosh, who was the man that plunged me beneath the waters of baptism in my mid -20s in the 1980s.

He was not a man who was overly jealous of his pulpit, as some men that I have known have met are.

And we had three, sometimes four, conferences in a year, and faithful men of God in our own community even, they would have pulpit exchanges.

They would invite other men into the pulpit. And I think that, and maybe you think

I'm overreaching here, but I think that you are doing a great disservice to members of a church when you are only giving them the privilege of one man of God opening up the

Scriptures to them. And there are places like that. Don't you think it's important that the congregation gets to hear the pages of Scripture articulated and exegeted by different men?

Because there are men of God who may have strengths in the

Word of God and their understanding of it, where those may be your weaker areas and so on.

I mean, not everybody is an expert on every page of the Bible, but you follow where I'm going there?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. We all have our given strengths and our given perspective, and it's very healthy to allow others to speak in.

If you think of it from a parental point of view, yes, my children are primarily learning from me.

But if I don't allow them or even encourage them to talk to other godly adults and learn from them, then their worldview and their understanding of life and Scripture is going to be very limited.

And so certainly it would be helpful not to limit your congregation's hearing of the

Word to your own voice. They are your flock. And I mean, that even starts with just plurality of elders.

I mean, that's a significant and important thing, where even within one local church,

God desires that the healthy model would be having a number of men who are able to teach and who will preach and teach.

And you just multiply that blessing when you have elders and pastors and godly men who are able to come in from other like -minded local bodies and share the

Word. Again, we get to all see that we are not alone and that the

Lord has his people in the city, in the nation, wherever, who are holding fast to the

Word and who can handle it rightly. Let's see, we have

Teresa in Hewlett, New York. Hewlett! How close is

Hewlett to Linnbrook? I've lived in Long Island most of my life, and I can't remember how close that is.

Yeah, it's very close. It's just south of us. We do have some members from Hewlett.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, Teresa says, what do you think are some of the signs that would make you aware that your church is not participating in the exact thing that you are discussing today?

Signs? Well, I guess one obvious one would be if the pastor of your church is the only person that ever opens up the

Word of God from the pulpit. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a pretty distinct one.

And of course, if you never hear that pastor mentioning other men of God with whom he has fellowships and friendships.

That's right. You know, getting stuck on certain non -essential hobby horses when that just becomes what you hear from the pulpit week after week.

One thing that the church that I was at in Louisville when

I was in seminary, they modeled very well, is praying for other churches.

Yes. Just praying for others who are ministering in their same city, same general area, and just going before the

Lord and asking for their success. So, I think the things that you would notice or not notice when your church leaders are not doing this is where there's not a discussion of a world outside of believers who are not in your church, who are doing good work, whom we should rejoice in and pray for.

If that never comes out of the lips of the leadership, I think that might be a clue that that kind of life and thinking is not going on.

If there's never invitations to good, solid conferences or good fellowships with other like -minded bodies, that might be something that's either just not on the radar of your leadership, or it could be something that they are intentionally avoiding.

Both of which are bad. The latter would be worse. But sometimes

I think it's just easy to get pigeonholed in your own area of service and almost not even recognize what you're missing in not going out and partaking in the fellowship of other brethren outside your church.

And I'm assuming that you would believe that if someone is getting that feeling—I mean, we judge too many things on feeling and not thinking—but somebody is getting that idea that their church and their leaders are not involved in any or not enough cooperation with other churches, they have to go first and foremost directly to their leaders, their pastor and elders, privately to address their concerns.

That goes with anything, right? That's right. If you think that you're seeing something unhealthy in your church, the first and most humble thing is just to ask the question of your leadership.

This is what I think I'm seeing. Maybe you could help me see more clearly what

I think I'm seeing. Maybe you can explain to me. Or maybe there's things that you're doing that I don't know of.

Like, I just had this thing on my heart that I think cooperation with other brethren and other churches is really important.

Is that something that you do? Is that something that you're seeking? Is that something that you find important? And let them tell you where they stand so that you have a better sense of what's going on rather than sort of formulating a picture in your mind and then just running with it when you don't have all of the necessary information.

Well, thank you, Teresa and Hewlett. And please, especially if you do not have a biblically faithful church home of your own, pay a visit to Lindbergh Baptist Church since it's so close.

Lindberghbaptist .org. We have an anonymous listener who says, The Apostle Paul was instructing

Timothy to be watchful over the flock for heresies and so on.

Don't you think that sometimes pastors go way overboard to the point where they are overly protective of the flock and it seems to be more motivated by the jealousy of losing one of those people to another congregation?

Don't we need to be open to the idea that people might be happier and more suited being members of another congregation if they feel so compelled to leave, even if it's not over a very serious doctrinal issue?

Yeah. And again, I've seen that modeled very well before my eyes with this network of pastors and even just knowing local pastors in the area that maybe aren't lockstep with us, but we know that they're preaching the gospel.

If members want to go there, either because it's closer to their home or because it more closely aligns with their own stance, you know, let

God's people go where God is leading them. I think it's a very dangerous thing to be so jealous over your church size and number that you would prevent saints from freely moving around if it's not, you know, detrimental, extremely detrimental to their health.

And then that multiplies to sending your best. You know, North Shores said,

Keith, go with blessing to Pastor Lindbrook Baptist Church. You know, that's

Levittown Baptist Church says to Henry Drew, our new music director,

Henry, go to Lindbrook Baptist Church and serve those saints there and be a blessing. Amen.

We have Burl in Lake Grove, Long Island, New York.

And Burl says, isn't one of the important reasons why pastors should have fellowship and friendships with pastors of other churches because of the fact that they should be made aware if there are problematic people in those flocks that may seek refuge by being undisciplined and leaving one congregation to go to another where he can try to fit in anonymously and act as if those problems that he had in his former church never existed.

Yeah, Burl, that that's right on point there. I've seen that play out a number of times.

So have I. And when you when you have a good network of pastors, you can kind of call around and say, hey, this person showed up.

They said they had been at your church. You know, tell me a little bit about what went on there. You can you can definitely get that kind of helpful information or warnings even.

Hey, so and so said to me that they're going to come check out your church. Here's maybe some difficulties that we had that you might want to keep an eye out for.

That's that's helpful as well. Yeah, I thought Burl was going to say is that they could be made aware of sinful patterns in their own life and own ministry, which is also super important and having other pastors look after you.

Yeah, that's good. That's going to require becoming a friend of that pastor because you're not necessarily going to open up like that to a stranger.

That's right. That's right. But what's interesting, you know, when they talk about pastoral loneliness,

I mean, the people the people at Lindbergh really respect me, which which is wonderful.

There's just a love that God has put in their heart for their leaders. But I think one thing that happens just generally when you're a leader like that, people just kind of think you're

OK. You know, he's the leader. So, you know, he's probably doing fine.

And they're not really going to dig in and ask like the tough questions, you know, that that might to them seem like sort of insulting to to even think that Pastor Keith might be wrestling with sin or have something that that he needs counsel on.

But but pastors can very easily look at one another and they know pastors got problems. And so they can more freely just enter in, brother, how are you doing?

You know, how's your how's your walk looking like? How's your how's your own private devotional life and those kinds of things which every

Christian needs somebody doing that for them, some multiple somebodies. And when you're a pastor.

More than likely, those somebodies was, you know, your elders, but generally speaking, the people are not going to be actively seeking to do that for you.

And obviously, it is no guarantee or one hundred percent perfect bulwark against what

I'm about to say, but it could further prevent a pastor falling more deeply into sin and and and and falling into a sin that would eventually make him no longer qualified to be in the pastor before that ever reaches that point.

If he is being held voluntarily accountable to other men in a in a friendship format where they are mutually agreeing to hold each other accountable, especially perhaps in certain areas of their lives where they know that they have weaknesses.

I mean, I know that as far as Baptists are concerned and as far as ecclesiology is concerned amongst us, we believe in the independence and autonomy of local churches.

There is no hierarchy outside of our own congregation in a in a

Baptist church. No hierarchy outside of the elders of that church other than Christ himself and Christ's word.

But at the same time, there should be voluntary accountability and and and friendships developed that there may be more openness even with men from another pastor from another church than even with among the fellow elders of the same congregation.

Yeah. And sometimes there's things that you need to talk about that involve your relationships with your fellow elders and you want to get some counsel on that before you, you know, enter into discussion with them.

There's multiple benefits. And it's kind of from and I'm just guessing here, but this what

I'm saying here might even be more vital. This whole theme that we're discussing might even be more vital for those of us who do believe in the autonomy and independence of local churches, because although we don't believe in denominational hierarchies and structures, what those things might provide would be provided, at least in some way and in significant ways, when we have pastors developing these friendships that we're talking about.

Amen. Yeah, us loose cannon Baptists do intentionally develop some sort of mooring systems.

And those are good ones. Those are really good ones. And I'm assuming also that the friendships might further prevent a church giving a safe harbor to an unrepented person from another church.

If you know the pastor and you become a friend of his, you're going to be likely less quick to welcome with open arms somebody into your congregation that has left theirs and welcome them to the

Lord's table and all that kind of thing. Right. Yeah. I think one thing

I want to emphasize that we've just said a couple of times is the word friend.

You can have denominational associations and just sort of co -labor because we're in the same denomination and maybe we'll get some more hits if we do it with some more people.

But friendship is more significant than denominational association.

Friendship necessarily entails intentional communication, this kind of openness and accountability, an affection for the brethren, which can happen inside denominations.

But sometimes you can be a part of a denomination and the only link that you really have is that we both signed up for this denomination because we have the same doctrinal statement.

But there's not friendship that's cultivated. And I think that's really what the emphasis there is, a friendship relationship of two human beings whose hearts are open to one another and loving one another and seeking one another's good.

Go ahead, finish. Not just for the sake of denominational dominance or planting your party flag, but really just loving the brethren for the sake of loving the brethren according to the word and Christ's name being made famous.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. Please contact as many of our advertisers as you can, knowing that their financial support is what keeps us on the air.

And send in your questions to Pastor Keith Allen to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. We'll be right back.

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the entire globe and I've helped many people in our

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That may be you too if you are in that situation of being without a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful church home.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address to send in a question to Pastor Keith Allen chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and our subject matter for the day as I've mentioned repeatedly before the importance of building relationships between pastors and local churches and the dangers of ecclesiastical isolationism.

We have a listener Alex in Boca Raton, Florida and actually

I will give his full name since he is the director of a ministry vesselsforchrist .org

Alex Wright in Boca Raton, Florida He says

Would you be suspicious of a pastor who does not fellowship with other pastors and whose church is not in fellowship with other biblical churches?

I wouldn't want to use the word suspicious. I just don't think that's a great sign of health.

I would encourage any pastor who doesn't have fellowship with other pastors or other churches that it would be a great contributor to their health to do so.

Now if that gets brought to light and they're sort of like staunchly against fellowship with other pastors and other churches, then there would be some suspicion.

Sometimes we don't know what we don't know until someone brings it to light and they might just be

Yeah, hand to the plow. Here's where I am. Focus on my people and say, hey, this would be really helpful for you.

Maybe they would be open to that. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a cause for immediate suspicion, but definitely a cause for some good counsel.

But I would be wary of pastors and churches who intentionally avoid fellowship with other pastors and other churches.

I think that's a bad sign. Yeah, I mean, I have actually met and have known pastors who literally behave like a cult leader and that they give the impression to their congregation that their specific congregation is one of only a handful of true churches and they treat someone if that person desires to leave to go to another congregation, they treat that person as if they are apostate, as if they have revealed that they were never saved or that they have lost their salvation depending upon the theological persuasion of the church and obviously that's loony tunes when you get to that extreme.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean, we as sinners find ways to twist the scriptures in all kinds of ways, right?

They went out from us and because they went out from us, it shows that they were not of us, right? Someone leaves our church, they're definitely not a believer.

I think any view that holds that, like, your church is the church, right? You got all the stuff right and salvation comes through your local body.

I think you've gone way above the line and just missing the greater testimony of Scripture and the testimony of what

God's doing in the world. God is doing big things through many congregations out there and we have to rejoice and promote and take part in that if we're going to more fully enjoy the glory of God and what

He's working on. And Alex has a follow -up question. Has Pastor Keith Allen read

Bully Pulpit by Michael Kruger or Acts 20 by Alexander Strauch?

Both of those books have good chapters on this issue. I can say that the fine folks at Lewis and Roth Publishing a couple of years ago donated

Alexander Strauch's book on the subject of Acts 20 to my

Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon and every pastor that attended got a free copy of that and this past luncheon last week, last

Thursday Lewis and Roth Publishing provided all the pastors with the newly updated and totally revised version of Alexander Strauch's book,

Biblical Eldership. So I have heard of Michael Kruger's book Bully Pulpit but I've never read it.

Have you read or are you familiar with either of these books? No, I've heard of Bully Pulpit and it's on my reading queue, haven't gotten to it yet and I was just in a conversation about Strauch just yesterday as regards

Biblical Eldership but I've not read the Acts 20 so thank you Alex for asking about those because I'm putting that Acts 20 on my reading queue as well.

Yes, this is just a point of trivia that our listeners might find interesting.

Michael Kruger was actually a member of the same church where I am now a member before he became

Presbyterian. He was a member of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and a pastoral intern there but he had later converted to Presbyterian ism and we will forgive him for that.

That reminds me of something pastors and people in general,

Christians in general will actually let me just read one more thing that Alex asked.

I didn't see this before. I'm assuming he means for me to read this on the air. Please pray for my wife.

She is almost one week past due. I am still running the ministry but my move to be a part of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Coconut Creek, Florida and my future daughter has delayed updates these days.

I appreciate your show and your guest. He sounds biblical and balanced. Well thank you Alex. And once again

Alex's website for Vessels for Christ is VesselsforChrist .org. What I was about to say is since I mentioned

Michael Kruger converting to Presbyterianism we have to be very careful not to be overly clingy and possessive of members of our church to the point where we vilify them if they happen to develop a theological perspective that is within the bounds of biblical orthodoxy.

I'm not talking about we're supposed to I'm not saying that we are to take in stride somebody adopting a heresy but at the same time as much as it may wound us if you're in a

Presbyterian church and a member of your church becomes convinced of credo or believer only baptism and they desire to leave and become a member of a local sound

Baptist church or vice versa. You have a member of a

Baptist church who becomes convinced of infant baptism and wants to leave. Especially I'm saying this because of the frequency of close fellowships that Reformed Baptists tend to have with Presbyterians and we exchange pulpits and things like that.

Even it might hurt our feelings and we will just miss those people perhaps because we would fellowship with them every single

Sunday. But at the same time shouldn't we be more gracious in to recognize that some people are better off even for a season leaving where we are and going somewhere else?

Yeah, I think we have to. We watched it happen a couple times at NSBC.

There is a strong Presbyterian culture in Flushing and Bayside where we're at and there have been a few saints who have become convinced of pedo -baptism and went to those churches.

We're free to think that they're wrong but we're not free to vilify them or label them as heretics or non -Christians.

We're not free to not love them anymore. We are indeed to continue to love them.

Well that would even go with a person who became a heretic or apostate. We're supposed to still love them.

That's true. Different kind of love. There's love for the brethren and then there's love for the outside.

But yes, we're called to still love them as well just in a different way.

But like when Paul is talking about the brethren who eat meat or think you can eat only vegetables one thing that he says is welcome one another but not to quarrel over opinions.

And I think that's so instructive in this idea of fellowship with those outside our own circle where there is love that's supposed to be there and fellowship.

And every time we get together it shouldn't be just so that I can try to convince you that where I stand is the right place to stand.

Though there's place to have those discussions. There's a love for our brethren who disagree with us that goes outside of just trying to correct them so to speak.

And he says let everyone be firmly convinced in his own mind. The saints of God are called to follow their conscience their convictions.

And it's said that if you go against your conviction that's sin. Even if your conviction might happen to be wrong.

If the eating does not proceed from faith then it is sin. But whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

So if you come under conviction that pedo -baptism is what's pleasing to the Lord.

Yeah you better go to a Presbyterian church and you go with my blessing. I think you're wrong but I could be wrong.

I don't think I am. But go worship and serve the Lord Jesus Christ according to your biblically argued convictions.

Before I move on with any listener questions or questions of my own I want to make sure that some of the areas or perhaps all of the areas that you actually intended to address on this subject are articulated by you.

Because I don't want to have the time fly by and have things that you really wanted most to address remain unaddressed.

So if you could let us know about some more of the issues involved in this subject that are important to you.

Well I think we've covered well the main impetus. It's important for pastors to have fellowship with other pastors.

It's important for local churches to have fellowship with other local churches. Pastors, yes.

But I'm thinking pastors not only for their own well -being and edification and accountability but also with their congregations coming behind.

If I have fellowship with a pastor and we enjoy one another and we find common ground on certain things, one of the benefits of swapping a pulpit or getting together for meals is not only a break and a rest for maybe one of us but we get to see one another's flocks and get to know them and enjoy them.

One of the things that I was able to participate in at North Shore when I was running the

Young Adults Ministry, 18 -35 we're just doing discipleship, we would invite young adults from other churches and one of my major intents was to develop this organic fellowship and love between Christian brethren in relatively the same area that would persist and form this web that would go out into the next generation where the churches are not isolated.

Yeah, I know so -and -so who came up in North Shore Baptist Church and yeah, we sometimes hang out with these brothers and sisters from First Baptist Church of New York City and we did this conference where we met some brethren from Levittown Baptist Church and there's just this knowledge of the bodies and the works that are going on that maintains this web of connectivity through the saints and I think that's something that churches should continually push for is to develop this web of gospel work and gospel fellowship.

So the other thing that I'm thinking about more that the Lord has laid on my heart particularly with this

Mark text about the one who is not against us is for us is intentionally trying to seek out fellowship with pastors who are outside your circle, who are outside of your denomination or your particular view like a

Calvinist pastor go find an Armenian friend and chat with him and go find a

Lutheran brother and chat with him if you're a Baptist gain the beauty of these different perspectives and understand them better and in whatever ways you can promote the gospel together without violating your convictions,

I think we should press toward doing that. So we have this big push for racial diversity be friends with people who don't look like you that's the glory of the kingdom is to go cross cultures and cross nationalities and form these bonds and co -labor for the gospel and that is the beauty of the kingdom

I think there's another sense in diversity is where different church bodies and different church leaders who can come together and love one another and serve for the gospel even though they don't think exactly the same or they have some secondary or tertiary doctrinal differences but we can still display before the world that we are united in Christ because we love one another and cooperate in a number of ways that is the glory of the kingdom and I don't think we tend to think like that and I know knowing you well enough

I am certain that you are not promoting rampant modern ecumenism where people which is all too often the case today are linking arms and treating as if they are brothers and sisters and even sister churches with Roman Catholics and things like that I'm not saying that we shouldn't be friends with Roman Catholics I have members of my family that are

Roman Catholics I was raised Roman Catholic and I'm not even saying that all Roman Catholics are lost but at the same time there are lines to be drawn with that but people in our circles of theology tend to go overboard the other way and do not extend any kind of an olive branch to an

Arminian pastor or church a really interesting fascinating example of this that may surprise many of our listeners who have not heard this already but the 18th century

Baptist theologian John Gill who is has had a or still has actually a reputation for being a very staunch

Calvinist to the point where he's been accused of hyper -Calvinism there's a debate there's a debate going on that still continues to this day between Reformed Baptists as to whether or not

John Gill should be rightly labeled a hyper -Calvinist but he was a man who was very rigid and staunch in his views but he actually developed a close friendship with a local

Seventh Day Baptist pastor named Samuel Stennett who is actually has written hymns that are probably in most of our listeners' hymnals and now both

Gill and Stennett were theologically Calvinists but they had that big difference as to the day of worship and that actually accommodated them to have more frequent pulpit exchanges because they worshipped on a different day now that's probably raising eyebrows because a lot of people in our circles would never dream of doing that and keep in mind

I'm not talking about Seventh Day Adventists they didn't even exist when I was like was that a slip of a tongue like what does he what does he say no no

Seventh Day Baptist the Seventh Day Adventist didn't even exist until the 19th century this was the 18th century and there are still

Seventh Day Baptists that basically agree with Baptists on everything except for the day of the worship so that's just an example of somebody who might surprise our listeners as to their the extent of biblical ecumenism that they were involved in their own lives and the lives of their churches but we have we have one more commercial break that we've got to go to and then if anybody has any questions and you want to join the conversation there's a question of your own send it to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private we'll be right back don't go away i'm pastor keith allen of linbrook baptist church a christ centered gospel driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of long island new york and play our role in fulfilling the great commission supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth we're delighted to be a part of chris arnzen's iron sharpens iron radio advertising family at linbrook baptist church we believe the scriptures of the old and new testaments to be the inspired word of god inherent in the original writings complete as the revelation of god's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak we believe in salvation by grace through faith in jesus christ this salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of god was purchased by christ on the cross and is received through faith alone apart from any human merit works or ritual salvation in christ also results in righteous living good works and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear god's image if you live near linbrook long island or if you're just passing through on the lord's day we'd love to have you come and join us in worship for details visit linbrook baptist dot org that's l y n brook baptist dot org this is pastor keith allen of linbrook baptist church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god not a result of works so that no one may boast of the lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

that's liyfc .org hello my name is anthony eugenio and i'm one of the pastors at hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website i want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the iron sharpens iron radio show like i do you can now find it on the apple's itune app by typing iron sharpens iron radio in the search bar you no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work just subscribe on the itunes app and listen to the iron sharpens iron radio show at any time day or night please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that chris arntzen has on the show truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news subscribe to the iron sharpens iron radio podcast right now and while you're at it you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the youtube page we are dedicated to teaching christian theology from a reform baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers from keach's catechism and the doctrines of grace to the olivet discourse and the book of leviticus the reform rookie podcast and youtube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth and finally if you're looking to worship in a reform church that holds to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith please join us at hope reform baptist church in corn new york again i'm pastor anthony video and thanks for listening oh oh this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole council of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of what we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill saso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always when and and and and and and and I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

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Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpens Iron Podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. And folks, I want to remind you that this program is also paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

Associates. If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice, please call my very dear longtime friend,

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

That's the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates. Make sure you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have a question for you,

Pastor Keith, from Maxim in Soldotna, Alaska.

And sorry if I mispronounced that. Maxim says, isn't an important factor of inter -church relationships and pastoral friendships when someone has a wonderfully gifted conference speaker that they share that speaker with other churches that this person may be on a circuit of sorts preaching in various places to share the wealth of his wisdom with these other churches with whom you are trying to develop a friendship?

Yeah, that's excellent, because I don't know if you're aware of this, Pastor Keith, because this is primarily happening before,

I believe, you were even at North Shore Baptist before you came to Lindbrook. But when

I was living on Long Island, North Shore Baptist and my church,

Grace Reformed Baptist of Long Island, America, and Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, we would do that.

One example would be Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. He would sometimes bounce from one of these churches to the other, and the wealth would be shared as far as the phenomenal teaching abilities that Dr.

White possesses. But any thoughts on that yourself? Yeah, I think that's one of the benefits that comes about when you have these ministry friendships and understandings of other congregations is that you can feel the freedom and the security of sharing resources like that.

You know, if I'm bringing someone in who is very skilled, while I'm happy to share him with anybody,

I wouldn't want to just send him to somebody just because they say they're a church and they're up the road.

You know, that sort of sharing comes within the context of friendships, like these three churches that you're talking about,

Chris, obviously knew one another prior to Brother White coming up and speaking, and it's through those friendships that they had that they were able to engage in this sharing.

So certainly would be a part of it. And also, in some ways, the ways partnerships get developed is through sharing of resources, you know, preaching at one another's conferences or gatherings or inviting other brothers that you know to attend fellowships and things like that that are very helpful.

And one of my most fruitful relationships in that sense has been with a brother named

Joey Gonzalez, who is at Grace Bible Church in New York City.

He came and planted that church in 2020, and through his relationships with our pastoral fellowship, he was able to get pulpit supply when he needed weeks off.

He had a number of conferences that I spoke at one and some other brothers he had developed relationships with spoke.

And through that sharing of resources, our congregations know one another, our young adults are close with one another, and there's just a trust built there that hopefully we can build gospel ministry in New York and Long Island on bonds like that.

Oh, and how could I forget that Dr. White, in this sharing of his speaking engagements, he also spoke at New Hyde Park Baptist Church and Lindbergh Baptist Church.

I have a vivid memory of standing in front of the

Lindbergh Baptist Church building before we—Dr. White and I were the first ones to arrive, and the door was locked.

I mean, we were standing outside, and I looked across the street, and I said, hey,

James, there's some kind of a church over there. I see people gathering, waiting to get into that building.

And he goes, oh, those are Mormons. I could tell. I said, really? How can you tell? White shirts, black ties, black name badges.

And I said, really? And I walked across the street, and I said hello to a couple of the young Mormons.

And I said, hey, if you guys want to come over to visit Lindbergh Baptist across the street, my friend

James White is speaking there, and he's an expert on your religion. And these two guys said, well, we can't come now.

We have our own service right now. But is he speaking tonight? And I said, yes. They came.

And the two Mormons were mesmerized by James's knowledge of their religion, which, of course, you and I believe is a very false religion.

And I often wondered whatever happened to those guys, because they were stunned. And they were sitting there with James after the service was over for at least an hour, maybe more, asking question after question after question.

And who knows what kind of seeds were planted? But yeah, always loved being a part of those conferences with Dr.

White and other speakers. And the Orthodox Presbyterian Church is also on Long Island, on occasion took part in those shared conference speakers.

But before we run out of time, I want you to address the things that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we run out of time and go off the air.

The Lord Jesus wants his saints to love one another and to be co -laboring with one another.

It's in Philippians chapter 1, verse 27.

Paul writes to the Philippian church, only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or I'm absent,

I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit and with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel.

In Ephesians chapter 4, he talks about being eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

And I think those things are extremely important inside our local bodies, but I think they are also important outside of our local bodies with gospel -believing brethren who are true born -again children of God.

We ought to, as we are able, have fellowship with one another and strive side by side for the faith of the gospel.

There's lots of sticky wisdom issues that we'll need to navigate in pursuing that end, but I think that that's what is pleasing to the

Lord, that we make those efforts and we rely on him to give us the wisdom with a heart towards building relationships with those who are outside of our local bodies that we might co -labor for the gospel together.

Well, I might as well squeeze in a last question from a listener because I think it's a very important one.

Cyril in North Belmore, Long Island, New York, not very far from Lindbergh. Cyril wants to know, when you are having these friendships develop with other pastors and churches developing friendships with other congregations, what are the bare minimum of doctrinal beliefs that you believe must be believed and professed by these various churches and congregations in order for true

Christian fellowship to take place? Well, there's the bare bones doctrines of Christianity, the

Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not three gods but one

God, co -equal in glory, co -equal in majesty, co -eternal, that the

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son, is fully God and took on human flesh and is also fully man, that he came and he died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, taking the wrath of God upon himself, that he bore that to the grave, that he was without sin, that he rose again on the third day, and that the way to gain acceptance before God is not through any works done by ourselves but through faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing, that the scripture is the word of God and is to be obeyed, that we are not to change the word of God or add to the word of God.

Those are like the bare, bare basics. And of course, you begin to build a structure on top of that, but it's the gospel, right?

I deliver to you as a first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

And I'm assuming that as far as eschatology goes, that as long as a church believes and teaches that Jesus will visibly, physically return on the last day and that both the saved and lost will be raised, and in other words, the major eschatological views of amillennialism, postmillennialism, and premillennialism are all within orthodox belief of eschatology.

And I'm assuming you would also believe that we should stay as clear as possible away from the hyper -preterist movement that denies a future return of Christ and a future resurrection.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Pastor Keith, oh, very briefly, you mentioned earlier before we went on the air that you have a

Vacation Bible School coming up. Tell us about that. Yeah, our Vacation Bible School at Linwood Baptist Church is going to be in July.

That is from the week of July 22nd to 26th, Monday through Friday, starting at about 630 in the evening.

We're going to be teaching the Bible to kids. It's a great opportunity to share about the gospel with these young people and to have fun with them, to get to know families in the community.

So if you're in the Linbrook area or in Long Island and like your kids to receive some biblical instruction, the week of July 22nd to 26th is

BBS at Linbrook Baptist Church. You can email the office for more information, office at linbrookbaptist .org.

Great. May I want to quickly announce that our next Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon is going to be held

Thursday, October 10th of this year, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., once again at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. And this October, our guest speaker will be, for the very first time,

Dr. Joe Boot, author, conference speaker, and founder and president of the

Ezra Institute. So if you are a man in ministry leadership, we invite you enthusiastically to attend the next free biannual

Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, Thursday, October 10th. Everything is free of charge, not only your admission and your food, but everybody will receive a heavy sack, maybe even two heavy sacks, of free brand new books donated by generous

Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom and personally selected by me. So we hope that you register as soon as possible.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put

Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. Thanks again, Pastor Keith. I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio for other interviews on any topic that is burdening your heart.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater