113: The Revival of Masculinity (Toby Sumpter Interview) | A Practical Postmillennialism Series

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men tend to be mission oriented, we tend to be oriented to a mission, to a project, to a problem that needs to be solved.

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And, and we tend to be task oriented, because we are, we're oriented to accomplish a task, a mission and so forth.

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And, but I think there's nothing so discouraging and disheartening to a man in particular, is when you have no idea why you're doing what you're doing.

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Hello, everybody. And welcome back to the broadcast where we prod the sheep and beat the wolf this episode 113 interview with Toby Sumter.

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Well, hello, everyone. And welcome back to the broadcast. This is a special episode with Pastor Toby Sumter from Moscow, Idaho.

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If you're not familiar with Toby, he is on cross politic, which you may have seen before. He is one of the guys involved with Fight Laugh Feast.

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He's doing a ton of stuff. He's written some great books. Toby, man, thank you so much. And welcome to the show. Absolutely.

01:15

Thanks for having me. Yeah. For those, maybe who don't know your work, you don't know what you've been really pouring your life out in man, give us a little bit of an introduction of who

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Toby is, who the family is all that stuff, man. Sure. Yeah. So I came out to Moscow, Idaho 2526 years ago now, to go to New St.

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Andrews College. I, I came from Maryland, actually.

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And where I had, I, I actually brought my I married my wife two years later.

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She's from Maryland. My high school sweetheart, we have four kids together.

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I have, I did New St. Andrews, I went through our ministerial training program here called

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Gray Friars Hall, and then did a couple of years in seminary in South Carolina at Erskine Theological Seminary.

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And then I I've been pastoring churches here in Moscow since 2008. pastored a sister congregation for 10 years, and then was associate pastor with Pastor Doug Wilson for several years.

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And then we planted a new church about two and a half, three years ago now, called

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King's Cross. And that's where I'm passing here in Moscow. And then as you mentioned, I'm heavily involved with Fight Left Feast and Cross Politic podcast.

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And then I'm usually working on something for Canon Press. Yeah, that's awesome, man.

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I love what you guys are doing out there in Moscow. I'm praying that that's something like that would come to New England, you know, and, and one of the things that's been so encouraging to me is, you know, we just talked to I just talked to Pastor Doug, that interview is coming out.

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But he said, that you just, you plant things, you plant seeds, and you just trust the

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Lord with the growth. That was so encouraging to me, because what's happening in Moscow could happen in New England. It has happened in New England.

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It's happened multiple times with revivals and things that have happened here. So I'm really encouraged as a as someone who's 2000 miles away from you guys on what's happening there.

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And also, really encouraged to follow in your guys's footstep and see something happening over generations here.

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So thank you so much, brother. Amen. So what I would love to talk about today is postmillennialism.

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And, and maybe just to start, and you know, I have no idea if this is someone's first time watching this or not, maybe they don't know what that term is.

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Help us understand what postmillennialism is and how you came to it as just sort of a baseline for us to get going.

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Sure. Maybe I'll throw a definition that's a little bit, maybe a little bit less common.

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But one of the ways I like to describe sanctification, or describe postmillennialism is basically is, it's the doctrine of sanctification applied to history.

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So almost all Christians believe that when

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Christ saves a man, woman or child, he who began that good work is going to complete it.

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And that completion means you being entirely fully conformed to the image and likeness of Christ.

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So he takes a filthy, rebellious sinner, and gives us a new heart, a new identity, puts his

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Holy Spirit in us. And at that moment of regeneration and justification, you know, all it's just a, you know, it's like a corpse.

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And, and Christ has planted a flag. And, and so there and there is a new heart, it's a beating heart, it's a living heart.

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And, but at the same time, it's there, you know, it's just begun.

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And so it there's, there's, there's nothing, there's not a lot of fruit there yet. But, but that is

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Christ as he begins that work, when Christ plants his flag, he always gets his man.

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And what that means, though, is, is that however long God wants, he's going to work on you in this life, conforming you more and more into the image and likeness of Christ.

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And then of course, at death, as we're translated, he perfects our souls.

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And then at the last day, he raises us from the dead, and we're granted new, holy, immortal, incorruptible bodies, just like Jesus has.

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And, and so that's the doctrine of sanctification culminating in what we call glorification. And I would say post -millennialism is simply the eschatological view that says that Christ planted that same flag in this world, in his crucifixion and resurrection.

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And he claimed this world for himself, he purchased it by his blood, and he began that work is going to complete it.

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And so the Great Commission that Jesus gave us before he ascended into heaven to disciple the nations and baptize them and teach them everything to obey everything post -millennialism believes that that is going to be accomplished, that the mission that Jesus gave us is going to be accomplished not with swords and guns and coercion, but by the preaching of the gospel by the conversion of men, women and children by the planting of churches by the building of businesses and schools and cities and cultures, and, and thereby, nations that confess that Jesus Christ is

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Lord. And so that when Jesus returns in First Corinthians 15, it says that, that he is in the process of putting all of his enemies beneath his feet, and the last enemy to be destroyed will be death itself, and then will come the end.

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And, and so post -millennialists believe that that's what Christ is doing right now.

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When I when my kids were little, I want to I kind of didn't I made up a catechism early on, before we did real catechisms.

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But it would just, I've just asked them random questions that they got used to me asking. And one of them

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I asked my, you know, probably three or four year old son at the time, was, where is

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Jesus? And he would say, in heaven. And I would say, and what is he doing?

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And, and the answer was destroying all his enemies. And so that in the same way that Christ has begun subduing us individually, by his

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Holy Spirit, he's, he's on conquest, conquering all of his enemies inside of each one of us.

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He's also doing the same thing. In this world, with, with, you know, with cancer, with, with atheism, with communism, with, you know, all corruption, all tyranny, sexual perversion, every enemy, every thought that contradicts the

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Lordship of Christ. Christ is in the process of putting down and subduing.

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John Greenewald Yeah. That's so good. And, and I love the way you say that, because I actually haven't heard anyone say it in those in those ways, like planting the flag.

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Matthew 2818 is clearly Jesus planting his flag. He says, all authority in heaven on earth belongs to me.

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Right now, therefore go, he's claiming the nations, he already has ownership of them, like he already has ownership of a brand new believer, but he takes time to sanctify them.

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That is, that is excellent observation. I think that's so helpful. John Greenewald Yeah, yeah,

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I think, yeah, some, sometimes we disconnect these elements, but I think they actually go right, right together.

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Matthew 2818 Why do you think, maybe it's a particularly American thing, the hyper individualism, why do you think though, that we don't make that leap to out of individual salvations and sanctification?

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Because all of us, from every dispensational to amillennial, whatever, we'll say yes and amen to that. Why don't we see that more macro over people groups?

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John Greenewald Yeah, I mean, right, I don't know, I think some of it is, maybe two quick stabs at it would be, maybe it is our hyper

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Arminianism. You know, maybe it is our, culturally, of course, we were a highly

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Calvinistic culture. Reform Baptists and Reform Presbyterians are were the majority culture makers and culture shapers in the early part of American history.

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But over time, we neglected that inheritance. And we, we embraced more and more.

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And in that more and more individualistic and autonomous views, which is in in the, the theological name for that esoteric ology is

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Arminianism, which doesn't, it's a, you know, in some ways sort of happily inconsistent, but it is, it creates at least a tension between the sovereignty of God and individual salvation, that, that the reform tradition said,

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Christ is not stymied by any of our resistance, Christ is not stymied by our sin, or our rebellion.

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But when Christ sets out to save a man, he gets his man. And, and he, and that was guaranteed on the cross 2000 years ago, right?

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Not one drop of his blood was shed in vain, right? Not one drop of his blood was shed in an attempt to, to save anyone, right?

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It accomplished the salvation of all of the elect. And, and the

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New Testament, the New Testament says, it's perfectly reasonable to describe that as the salvation of the world, which

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I don't think then means that Christ is going to save a tiny, tiny fraction of the world or a tiny, tiny remnant,

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God, so love the world that he gave his only son. And the next verse, maybe the most neglected versus john 317.

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He did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that through him, the world might be saved. So, so I think but maybe

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Arminianism has gotten into it. Maybe our this, this focus on you've got to decide, and you've got to make the choice and a very decisional, conversionism, that it's all up to you.

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And, and if and and you can also decide, nevermind, and and you know, you can lose your salvation and all this kind of stuff.

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Maybe that's been a big part of us of disconnecting personal sanctification from the potent cultural and political effects of the gospel.

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I was just talking to a woman, I think you make a good point there. I was just talking to a woman today. You know, my sister's friend who's at work, and they called me on a, they were at work and asking me about baptism.

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And as I was describing, baptism is not an inward work that you need to make a public profession of.

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It's not your sign unto God, it's God's sign unto you, and to your whole family. And I was just,

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I was struck again, by how we miss the, the plural pronouns in the

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New Testament. The the use, in the South, we have a we have a word for this, it's y 'all.

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But most read those use those, this is for you and your children, they read those as no, this is for me, for me and God, it's just us and him.

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And I think you make a valid point there that that sort of Arminianism has buffeted that sort of view.

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And hopefully by works like what's going on in Moscow, and in the CRC, and in the OPCP, stuff like that, the

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Lord will, will continue to bring his gospel and truth to this nation. Amen. How'd you come to post millennialism?

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Like, was it you were you born post millennial? Did you? Yeah. What was your journey?

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I asked post millennialism into my heart. I, so I grew up, you just mentioned the

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OPC, I grew up, I'm a, I'm a pastor's kid. I'm a preacher's kid. And my dad is a

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OPC minister. So I grew up in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, my, my dad was saved in college.

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And then I went to seminary. And the first, but the first, I think one of the first churches he was really discipled in as a new believer was an

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OPC church, and the pastor discipled him and then encouraged him to go to seminary. And so he did, and then ended up ministering in OPC churches all growing up.

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I think I grew up in a sort of a, you know, maybe like a pan millennialism.

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Yeah, you know, it'll, it'll all pan out in the end. Sort of a vague vagueness.

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So I probably I mean, I'm guessing my dad sort of defaulted to a kind of amillennialism is probably what we were defaulted to.

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But I just honestly don't remember there being a lot of teaching. Of course,

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I was a kid. So I might have just spaced. But I remember in high school, I went to a Christian high school that was actually sponsored by a

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PCA church. But in one of my high school Bible classes, the Bible teacher did a whole section unit on end times and eschatology.

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And he was a full blown dispensationalist, you know, rapture and, and I had never heard of anything like that in my life.

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I guess I don't know, I lived in sort of a OPC bubble or something. But I was just like, I mean, all I believed in was, you know, that someday

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Jesus would return. Like, that's what I believed in. And, and, and maybe a little sense of, you know, the resurrection, but it was, it was very, very vague.

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And that was it. But when he started reading verses and saying, Now, this is probably talking about Apache helicopters.

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I hadn't, I didn't know what I believed. But I can remember and I, I don't know that I was the most polite or honoring about this.

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But I can remember cutting up in the back of the class with my buddy, just thinking that was the most ridiculous thing in the world.

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But not having any idea any, you know, he was, he was talking about million man armies in China and, and Apache helicopters.

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And I just knew that wasn't right. But I had no idea what I believe. So. So that was, that was one instance.

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I don't remember if I talked to my dad about that. But anyways, I basically came to a fuller reformed eschatology coming to New St.

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Andrews in right after high school. So I came to New St. Andrews. And in that in our first year, we have a week, the freshman theology classes, we call it lordship.

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And it's basically Christ is I don't remember the exact sequence that's probably changed now over many years, but it was like Christ is

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Lord of the history, Lord of the church, Lord of family. I can't remember what the other one is, but each each of the units, but but I think in the course of that, maybe

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Lord of salvation is the other one. But anyways, in the course of that Pastor Doug Wilson was the teacher when

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I was there. But we got a heavy, heavy dose of post millennialism.

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And and so for me, I would basically say, I had, I was brought up in a basic Calvinism, and a basic covenantalism.

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And, and so that was sort of broadly the the structure I was given with a pretty vague notion of eschatology.

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And then I came out here and so Pastor Wilson was and then you know, we read Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry, I think in in lordship class, and so those were, you know, last last day's madness kind of helped, like, okay, yeah, that I thought it was mad.

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There, there, that explains that. And so, you know, understanding of the partial preterism and the idea that a lot of that apocalyptic language that is sometimes immediately thrust to the very end, is describing ends of eras was very helpful.

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Okay, Matthew 24, Luke 21, the language in Revelation, that was all very helpful.

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And then, and then I think the the but the centerpiece of it all has was always

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Pastor Wilson's particular emphasis, and I know this is other people's as well, but his emphasis on the efficacy of the cross is it's, it's really, for him, and I think, and then, and now for me, it really grows out of.

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And I think I'd probably think this, even if I didn't know what to do with the apocalyptic passages, like even if I didn't know what to do with those things, even if I was still a futurist.

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I think the, the emphasis on the power of the cross, and in the salvation of the world, which is still so dominant, and combine that with the

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Great Commission. And I, that I would still be an optimist, even if I even if I did, even if I thought the

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Apache helicopters were something in Revelation, you know, or even if I, I thought there, you know, it was, there was going to be something dark and bad coming.

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I would still say, but somehow, that's what that's why Christ died. And I don't and that's the center of our faith.

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And so I want to build my vision of the world from the center. And the less

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I want the you know, this is a basic rule of hermeneutics, you always want the clearest passages to interpret the less clear passages.

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And I think, well, everybody knows john 316. That's, that's the clearest, that's one of the clearest passages there is.

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And, you know, I'm not so sure about the sun turning dark and the moon turning to blood. But I know what john 316 means.

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And so we should, you know, but thankfully, of course, there's some very easy explanations for saying,

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Oh, look, that's Isaiah 13 uses that language to to describe Babylon and you know, that kind of thing.

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And so Oh, this is what this is how the Bible describes the end of eras the end of epochs.

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Brian Smith Yeah, that's super good, man. And what a legacy to have been discipled in that way, by, you know,

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Doug and others and you mentioned Gary Damar and Ken Gentry, those are great resources for our listeners. You also mentioned pan millennialism, which

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I think is really, it's connected to what the topic that we want to talk about today.

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So pan millennialism is this sort of joke, which I hope in the Lord's providence that by the end, when he returns, the joke is retired and it and it no longer is spoken.

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But it's, everything's going to pan out in the end, I don't need to worry about eschatology, because really, it's it doesn't matter.

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That's for folks who live in their basement with their tinfoil hats and their charts. And, and they have

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YouTube channels that rant about these things or whatever. But it doesn't really intersect my life.

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I'm just going to put it in this category of irrelevancy. And I'm going to look at other topics.

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But yet what you just said is that your eschatology is connected to your soteriology that it's connected and integrated into your, your whole theological framework.

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Maybe help us then understand why pan millennialism is, you know, with such a defeatist view or a, or why an integrated view of eschatology is so important to you in your life.

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And I think that'll be a good segue for us to talk about some other things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, I mean, there's always a sense in like,

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I think maybe this is especially for men, but I think this is for probably all people in general, but men tend to be mission oriented, we tend to be oriented to a mission, to a project, to a problem that needs to be solved.

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And, and we tend to be task oriented, because we are, we're oriented to accomplish a task, a mission and so forth.

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And, but I think there's nothing so discouraging and disheartening to a man in particular, is when you have no idea why you're doing what you're doing.

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You're like, where are we going? Like, I mean, there's a,

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I mean, we're living in a land that has an epidemic of despair, and particularly among men.

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And, and the in what you know, is often referred to as the deaths of despair. You know, the suicide, death by, you know, drug abuse, you know, these kinds of things that death by despair, deaths of despair, are is skyrocketing.

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And, and then even where somebody doesn't take their own life, or just completely destroy their own life, it, you know, it's just porn and video games, or, you know,

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I think the, that's a, that's what it looks like when you've lost all purpose.

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When and particularly for men, it's particularly in a culture with men who have lost a sense of purpose, a sense of the mission.

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It is disastrous. Yeah, it, men, men lead a culture.

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It meant always lead. The question is, where are we leading to? And how are we leading?

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And it's, it's either it's either for blessing or for cursing. And, but we've, as a culture broadly, and I think as the as the church more generally, have lost sight of the mission.

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And I think we've lost sight of the mission, because we, we have tended to take a more pan millennial view, if you will, of almost everything.

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I mean, you know, just back to the just the idea of sanctification.

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I mean, many churches, it's, it's just get saved, get saved. And then you come back next

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Sunday, and guess what, the message is get saved. And you come back again next Sunday and get saved.

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And, and, you know, for those who really do get saved, it, I mean, it's always a blessing to hear the gospel.

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And, and it's encouraging and so on. But you you can only get, that's, you can only get so mature in your

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Christian faith, with that message repeated every Sunday with an altar call at the end every, every

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Sunday. And, and so you, you end up just with milk, but you don't know, and then, you know, maybe at best, and I think, you know, again, grateful for any good, but at best, you get redeployed to then get other people saved.

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And it's just a sort of this. But it's, it's not really, but it can feel a little bit like a pyramid scheme.

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Of course, it's not really because it's the kingdom of God, and God really is saving people. But it's sort of like get people saved.

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Why? So that you can get more people saved? Why? So you can get more people saved? Why? And then, and then meanwhile, what that ends up doing, though, is it really bifurcates your

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Christian life, your spiritual walk from everything else in your life? Why? Why are you getting married?

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I don't know. I mean, I guess because it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage. You know, why are you having kids?

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Well, I guess, because that's what you're supposed to do, I guess. I mean, that's just it happens. And, and why are you working that job?

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Well, it was better than the other job, and it pays enough money, and that boss isn't as much of a jerk.

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And why are you living there? But it's all I think, but it's all a kind of, you know, pan, pan pessimism, a pan apathy of, well,

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I guess it'll work out. I don't know, you know, and sort of vague, you know, and then we sprinkle on top of it, and God is in control.

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God is in control. And God is good. Which is true, of course. But, but you've, you've disconnected your, your walk with the

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Lord, and the mission of the church from the rest of your life. And so, and so to flip it around down more positively is that no,

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Christ intends to be Lord of all. He is

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Lord of all. And whether we like it or not, he already is Lord of all. But there's a massive difference between us acknowledging that, in all of life, and either being ignorant of it, or ignoring it or defying it.

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And, and so yes, get saved, come into the church, confess him as Lord, get baptized, and so on, start worshiping regularly.

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But now, of course, the second half of the, of the Great Commission is teaching them to obey everything

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I've commanded, which means all of the Bible for all of life. And, and of course, some of those people that get saved are going to be very gifted evangelists and missionaries, and they should be redeployed to preach the gospel and get more people to come in.

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We've got to do that. Absolutely. But others of them are going to be very, very gifted computer programmers.

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And others of them are going to be very, very gifted historians and teachers, and very gifted, you know, in all kinds of other areas, artists and musicians in every area of life.

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And, and so in every area of life, every thought needs to be taken captive to the obedience of Christ, it says in 2nd

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Corinthians 10. And so, and so I would say, the pan millennialism tends to see it tends to create a kind of apathy, you don't know what the mission is.

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And I think that causes people to despair, especially men. But Christ died and rose again, to save men in order to put them to work on the mission.

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And the mission is not only to preach the gospel. The what

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God gave to Adam and Eve in the very beginning, it's a dominion mission. And because everything that God commanded includes things like be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it, rule all the animals, study weather, and geology.

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And, you know, it's, it's the whole it's the whole earth. And so but I think having a clear eschatological view is part of restoring the mission.

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What are we doing? What we're trying, what we want, what we're wanting to do is we want to fill the whole earth with the knowledge of the

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Lord, as the waters cover the sea, we're seeking to do is preach the gospel so that everyone, every creature will confess him

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Lord and serve him in all of life, praise him in all of life, from medicine, to finances, to political science, to education, to the arts, to politics, and, and everything in between.

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So I think it's massive for knowing where are we, where are we going? And why are we doing this? Right. And I think that's what we need to be.

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We need to restore a very big sense of purpose.

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And purpose is connected directly to mission. And, and mission is, is well, what are we here for?

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Right. That's so good, brother, because men have been have been bludgeoned in the society for a long time.

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In the church has adopted some of these feministic tendencies, where, where we were, we try to make men into the kind of people who will, who will sing their 711 anthems, seven, seven word chorus 11 times in a row, with their hands up.

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And we've, we've basically tried to make them emotional, effeminate. We've tried to make them not mission oriented, because that clearly can't be right.

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We've tried to make them winsome, but not fearsome. For the kingdom, we've done all of these things to men.

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And just a very simple thing that you said is we don't know where we're going. Because if if it were about a popularity contest, or if it were about having the world think we're, we're, we're good, then maybe the gospel coalition method of trying to play footsie with the world might be the mission.

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But if the mission is Christ owns everything and is using us, which I think is the greatest privilege on earth, by the way, that he could have

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Thanos snapped his fingers and everything was done. He could have done that without our help.

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He could have saved us without even having us be born because we were elected before the foundations of the earth.

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He allowed us to be born to participate in the mission. And that's so helpful for men, because we've been beaten down for so long that, you know, you're the problem.

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If you have testosterone, you're the problem. So I love what you were saying there. And that can recover and revive a godly masculinity, which the church needs.

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Yeah. And I think in beginning with recognizing that the conquest is, again,

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I would go back to its sanctification. It's growing in holiness, which is obviously entirely dependent on the grace of God.

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It's it's all his grace. It's all his kindness. We can't we can't do a single thing apart from his grace.

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But but that grace really is at work in us. And therefore it's not insane for the apostle to say work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

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For it is he who is at work in you, to will and to do according to his good pleasure. And so but I would say that's where the the battle begins.

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We've for far too long, as you noted, we yeah, we've made feminine spirituality, the norm, which either drives men away, or feminizes them.

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Yeah. And that's, that's essentially what's happened. Any man with an ounce of testosterone has fled the church.

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So I'd rather go fishing on Sundays, you know, I'd rather watch football on Sundays, I'd rather go hunting.

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I'd rather work on the car than be forced into this effeminate mold, or the guys that have stayed have been slowly feminized.

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But but I think the the center of it is is the battle against sin, the battle against the world, the flesh and the devil.

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And, and so, and it starts with each individual man being told, you have a mission to, by the grace of God by the power of the

33:07

Holy Spirit, to subdue all that is not godly in you.

33:15

And then if God blesses you with a wife, now guess what, now you're responsible for both of you.

33:22

And, and you're to love her like Christ loved the church gave himself for her in order to present her to yourself spotless.

33:32

And of course, you're not the Savior, Christ is the but you're commanded by the Savior, to image him to her and love her in such a way as to sanctify her, which means you now have a, you know, double the conquest, you're to you're to be driving out the sin, and the world, the flesh and the devil in her by loving her and leading her.

33:54

Well, and then if God blesses you with children, now you've got now you've been multiplying that even more now you're responsible for the conquest in your home of sin, death, and the devil of the world, the flesh and the devil.

34:08

And in this, in these ways, you can sort of see like these concentric circles kind of going out, starting with yourself, ruling your own life, well, presenting it as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, subduing the thoughts and the passions there, but then your wife, your kids, your business, what are you doing in your vocation?

34:30

And then as a churchman, how are you being a faithful member in your church or a leader in your church?

34:36

But I think that those masculine instincts are holy and good. And and the first application ought to be in provision and protection,

34:47

Adam was given a garden to to guard and cultivate.

34:53

And, and so men ought to be thinking in terms of provide and protect, provide and protect, starting with yourself, working out from there.

35:05

That's the mission until to make it more and more like the kingdom of God more and more pleasing to the

35:13

Father. Yeah, that's so good. Because men thrive under a burden, a good burden, a godly burden.

35:20

We, this idea of I'm going to play video games, and I'm going to live in the basement of my mom's house is destroying men, or, or not giving men a burden, a godly burden that a man can work himself for and be tired at the end of the day and, and have to give blood, sweat and tears for invigorate something inside of him that God put in him.

35:42

That right, like you said, to protect and provide. I know that once those concentric circles work themselves out, men should be asking the question of, well, how do

35:52

I make my neighborhood conform to the image of Christ, bow the knee to Jesus, how to make my city, right?

35:58

There's men who are listening to this who should get involved in local politics and provide a

36:04

Christ centered voice there. There's men who have been working under a boss, that they could do the exact same thing, but maybe even better, they could start a business, but they're afraid to take the risk.

36:14

I think post millennialism encourages men to be risk takers for the glory of God.

36:21

Not, not risk taking, you know, what am

36:26

I trying to say? Not taking risk frivolously, or without calculating it, but taking godly risk for the kingdom.

36:34

Amen. Yeah. And I think, I mean, a lot of this, again, you think about the guy, like, why are guys, you know, in the basement playing video games?

36:43

Or why are they, you know, the best of them may be, you know, hunters, and fishermen, and, you know, car mechanics?

36:51

Well, while while neglecting a wife, children neglecting the public square and neglecting a church.

37:02

And I think, even with a video game, or a, you know, a good war movie, what you what you what you have is basically you have a, you have a superficial, you have the feeling of providing and protecting.

37:18

Yeah, it's, it's a pseudo masculinity. And, and I think, you know,

37:24

I don't like, I don't care if a guy wants to occasionally, you know, get on a game console and, and play a, you know, a game, the or go hunting or work on the car, or go to the go to the gym and work out.

37:39

I mean, all these things can be good things, right? So long as you understand them to be, primarily, they ought to be tools for making you the kind of strong, vigilant man you need to be for the most important things first.

37:58

Yeah. And so but if but if the highlight of your life is, you know, beating another level on some game, then, then your priorities are out of whack.

38:09

And but it's, but when you don't understand that, we're actually, we're actually training and fighting for eternal glory.

38:17

That's the thing that is part of the mission that we've lost is that we've been we've been fed a lies for the last century or more, in our schools, in particular, through Darwinism, and evolutionism, and all kinds of nihilism, which is basically that you die, and then there's nothing.

38:37

We came from pond scum, it was it was an accidental, cosmic thing, and then you die, and there's nothing.

38:46

But, but that's, and so the best you get is a guys that maybe shine for a few minutes, for a few years, because we don't believe in eternal glory.

38:55

Yeah. But, but God made men hungry for glory. He made us hungry for glory.

39:02

We this is why I like to say the, you know, when the first words, the first two words, the first phrase out of a little boy's mouth, when right after, you know, maybe dad and ball, or gun or something, you know, the first phrase out of his mouth is, watch this.

39:23

And, because a little boy knows that he was made for glory. Yeah, he was made to jump off things that are a little bit too high.

39:30

He was made to wrestle things and fight things and do difficult things in order to win glory.

39:37

And that is a good and glorious thing that God put inside every man's heart. And all grown up men have still have the same instinct, we want to do great things, we want to accomplish great things.

39:48

And, and, but the differences is whether we're aimed at eternal glory, or, or finite glory.

39:56

That's, that's the that's the main difference. But what happens is, when you when you completely shut off that eternal horizon, eternal glory, finite glory starts looking less and less useful.

40:10

You know, for a little while, people will be like, Alright, well, I guess I'll, you know, win the Olympics, I'll win the Super Bowl, I'll, I'll be the richest guy,

40:17

I'll get the, you know, sexiest babes, you know, like, you know, for a little while, you can sort of distract yourself with earthly glory.

40:26

But very quickly, it all just starts falling apart. It's because every year, it doesn't last, it doesn't satisfy.

40:33

And it's not really solid glory. But solid glory is the kind of glory that will never fade, that you can never lose.

40:43

And, and so that's the thing that orients men in particular, to things like family, and church, and neighborhood, and culture, and nation, and civilization, because, because in all of those things, you have the most valuable things that that are that exist, and that is people.

41:04

And, and people are what is going to are going to live forever. People are what are going to live forever.

41:11

And so, but but that's, if you that's, that's only possible if you have that eternal horizon, right, that that there's an eternal glory, waiting, that you can, you can actually labor here for a an imperishable crown.

41:27

And that's what the New Testament says. This is what Jesus says over and over again. If you give these things up these temporary pleasures, and temporary safety and, you know, all these things, my

41:41

Father will reward you greatly, great, your reward will be great in heaven. And Paul says he knows that is laid up for him an imperishable crown because he poured out his life for the saints.

41:54

Brian Smith Yeah, I remember realizing this for the first time in seminary, you like when you're in seminary, you're reading good books, and you're like, ah, you know, that you catch this bug in the early part of seminary, where you're like,

42:04

I want to be famous, and I want to write and I want to be smart. And I want to, you get caught up in like, should

42:10

I go for a PhD? And it's this, it's this weird sort of like, nerdy glory culture, where men are still seeking glory, but it's through like nerdy things.

42:19

It's hilarious. But I was reading Edwards, and I was impressed by his brilliance.

42:26

I had read some of his philosophy, some of his science, that like his notes on spiders, some of his theology,

42:34

I'd read kind of widely with Edwards, and I was so blown away at how brilliant he was. And that's impressive.

42:41

But there was, I think it's in George Marsden's biography of Edwards, it's got this footnote or this appendix where it lists out his lineage, and it lists out all of the godly

42:51

Christians, governors, vice presidents, judges, lawyers, and just this list.

42:58

And I remember thinking, that's glorious. Edwards died pretty early.

43:04

He was like, not even in his mid 40s yet, but yet his life lives on through his family.

43:11

And I just remember being captivated by that as a man. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it's, it's true.

43:17

And, and, and there's a, yeah, the whole, I know what you're talking about the, the seminary experience and the idea of, you know, and I think everything depends on, again, what's your ultimate goal?

43:33

And I think, but what happens is, is it's, it's easy to be distracted by really shiny objects that aren't, that don't hold up.

43:43

It's like being really excited about it. You know, I was in the, in our attic in our garage, helping my wife clean out the garage a couple days ago.

43:51

And, you know, I've got, she's got, she's left one of my little league trophies, you know, you know, they give you these little plastic, you know, fake plastic, you know, shiny trophy of a guy with his base, you know, baseball bat.

44:08

And you just think, but that, you know, I mean, of course, there's, there's something good about that.

44:13

I mean, of course, you know, nowadays, everybody gets a trophy and everybody's a winner and all that kind of thing. But there's, there's, there's a right instinct that says you accomplish something important and significant.

44:23

And at the end of that, there should be, there's a prize. And, and there, and so I think there's a good instinct that's trying to teach boys in particular, work hard for prizes, right?

44:33

I think that's a biblical concept, work hard on the race so that you'll win the prize.

44:38

Yeah. So that you'll win the prize. Exactly. That's, that's a very biblical concept. But I think, and so, and Paul will even talk like that in first Corinthians 15.

44:48

He gives his testimony, he rehearses the basics of the gospel, that Jesus was crucified, buried, rose again, seen by many witnesses, last of all seen by me as one born out of due time, not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

45:03

But his grace to me, he says, was not in vain, it was not empty. And I've run now, heart further, and done more than all the other apostles.

45:12

But it was not me, but it was his grace at work in me. But but Paul was, I had this godly ambition.

45:21

I was looking at second Corinthians 10. Just this last week in my, my teacher preaching class, and, and he is dealing with I mean, the

45:34

Corinthians were a really special church. I mean, they were a really difficult church. And, and, and they've accused him of all kinds of things, as you read through the you're kind of reading between the lines, like they've obviously accused him of being a false apostle, they've accused him being harsh, they've accused him of only coming around when he asks for money, just pretty, pretty, again, harsh.

45:55

And, and he is sort of responding to that in chapter 10, saying, you know, he's apparently been accused of only being mean in his letters, but he's really, you know, meek and mild when he's in person.

46:06

And he says, Well, I assure you, it's the same guy. And I hope I don't need to come there in person and, and, you know, be as mean as you think

46:13

I am in my letters, of course, I'm not really mean, but but then, and says, you know, and I'm not gonna boast in anything that I shouldn't boast in.

46:22

But he says, you know, you know, here's what I'll boast in. I'm going to boast in what God has done in you. And I'm going to boast in you in such a way that I hope that when

46:32

I when when people hear about what God has done in your midst, that it will be such a explosive thing that it will give me more opportunities to preach in other lands beyond you, because of what

46:46

God has done in you. So I mean, is Paul looking for a bigger platform? Well, absolutely he is.

46:52

But but not because he wants to make a bigger name for Paul, right? Because he wants to make a bigger name for Christ.

46:58

Amen. And so every man should be thinking, I want as big a platform as I can get, I want to have as much influence as I can possibly have.

47:06

For Christ, I want as much influence, you know, whether it's through my descendants, like Jonathan Edwards, whether it's through writing, whether it's through my, you know, the business that I'm running, whether it's through the money that I'm able to make, and then, and then bless others with, you know, in this school in this church, wherever God has called you, we should be hungry for glory.

47:29

The thing that we shouldn't do is be like, you know, five year old boys boasting in ourselves or thinking that the little league trophy is, you know, somehow we've, you know, you got a book deal.

47:41

So what, you know, millions of people have got book deals, right? You're, you know, you got 1000 people to clap for you at a conference, you know, so what?

47:50

You know, if that's, that's your height of glory, you know, well, that's, that's going to fade in five minutes, and no one's going to remember you have been millions of books published.

48:00

You know, you, you have a blog, you have a podcast, you know, good job. But, but every

48:07

Christian has one now. What is it every Christian has a podcast, right? Congratulations.

48:13

But, but if you think of it in terms of seed, and you and you say,

48:19

God's Word doesn't return void. Yeah. Lord, bless this seed, make it go into the ground and make it fruitful.

48:26

Make it make it produce 30 60 hundred fold. Yeah. God blesses that because because you're not satisfied with just this earthly glory, you want an eternal weight of glory, you want a crown that won't fade.

48:41

John Greenewald Yeah, as I was, as you were saying that I was like, we are glory hunters as men, we are looking for it, but we're looking for it to give it away, give it back to Jesus.

48:50

Which is, you know, that, that invigorates our competitive nature that how much glory could

48:56

I possibly get for Christ in my life. And that that's so motivating to think like that, that godly ambition, which

49:04

I think has been tried. Many have tried to squash ambition and men. One of the qualifications of an elder is that you would have a godly ambition.

49:12

So ambition in and of itself is not sinful. It's who are you magnifying in your ambition? Right? Yeah.

49:19

Amen. What would you say? So we talked a little bit about manhood. Would you I just,

49:25

I'll ask you it this way. Would you say that the most masculine thing that a man can do who's listening to this?

49:31

Who's, who's like, yeah, I want to gain glory for Christ. I want to, I want to have a life that when

49:36

I meet Jesus that I get to lay down crowns at his feet and say, Lord, you were worthy of all my effort.

49:42

And, and I don't have anything that I don't have nothing to show for it. I have something to show for it. Would you say that the best way to do that is, is to get married, have children, baptize those children, and then catechize those children, raise them according to the faith of Christ?

49:59

Yeah, absolutely. What I would say is the most valuable, the most valuable, most potent thing in all of creation is people.

50:12

And, and so, like, you know, everything else is going to fade away.

50:20

Everything else is, is, you know, and I don't, I don't believe that the new heavens and the earth and their, and their fullness are going to be wispy shadows.

50:28

But, but it's the only thing that's going to remain fixed forever, are, are, apart from God, is human souls.

50:42

Yeah, human beings, people who bear God's immortal image. And so, and yes, and the ordinary way that people love and honor and cultivate human souls is through marriage and family.

51:01

And, and so, and I would say, so that's the, that's the normal, that's the Genesis, you know, one and two.

51:08

That's the ordinary way is a man leaves his father and mother, is joined to his wife, the two become one flesh, and under God's blessing, they receive an inheritance of children.

51:20

And, and so that's the ordinary way that you, that you have, when you come to the before, when you come before the throne of God, and you, and you, and you cast down, you know, when you, when you cast down the crowns, and you, when you give him all that you can give him, it, it's all going to be bound up with people.

51:43

It's going to be, it's going to be people. And, and so, and so, you know, that's what

51:49

Paul says, I mean, Paul himself says, like, what is my glory? He says, you are my glory.

51:57

What is my authorization to preach? You are my authorization to preach? What is my, what is my paperwork?

52:04

You are my paperwork. You are my joy and my crown, he says, to his people that he's ministered to.

52:11

I think by, by, you know, so by extension, I think it is ordinarily, the center of it is marriage and family.

52:19

The, I think that we are also of course, knit together in the church, the body of Christ. And so you have a, an additional ministry there, where we are seeking to build one another up into Christ, edifying one another, making one another more and more like Christ.

52:39

And if you are an officer in a church, of course, you have those particular duties and responsibilities.

52:44

You are, Hebrews 13 says that you're going to give an answer for those that you're responsible for, you're going to answer for the saints that God entrusted you with in your local church.

52:56

And I think then by extension, you might have, you know, extended family and neighbors and community as well.

53:03

And, you know, and of course, for a man that's not married, I would say obviously, prayerfully seek it, prayerfully desire it, be ambitious for it.

53:11

But if the Lord hasn't blessed you with a wife and kids yet, well, you should be a very fruitful member of a local church.

53:18

And you should be a fruitful man in your vocation. And be thinking in terms of how can

53:25

I bless the most people? How can I be the greatest encouragement to the most people?

53:31

Because even if you don't have a family, you're practicing for that now.

53:38

And so serve, give, bless, befriend, encourage, counsel, disciple, right.

53:47

And, and be fruitful there because people are what people are going to live forever. People are what you're going to be able to ultimately say, look, here's, here's how you blessed me.

54:01

But yeah, absolutely. I would say for most people, the center of it is marriage and kids. John Greenewald Yeah, as you were saying that I was thinking, you know, the real sin of Adam, if we think about it right in the very beginning is passivity.

54:14

And how much that plagues men, men who are not redeemed or men who are not being sanctified in a faithful church, or they're not reading their scriptures, they're just kind of passively going through life.

54:26

That is the battle is to be active to be active everywhere. And that could sound exhausting.

54:32

But men, you should go to bed tired, you should have been active in your home, you should be active in the relationships that God has given you, you should be bringing

54:40

God's blessings to every square inch of your life and everything that your life touches. And that's what first Corinthians 1031 really is all about.

54:49

Do everything to the glory of God, whether you eat or drink. So if eating and drinking is on the list, then everything else is too, because that's sort of like the baseline.

54:57

Brian Smith Right? Yeah, I think for a lot of us, men, because we love glory, because we're made for accomplishments and winning.

55:08

The thing that we most hate is failing. The thing that we most hate is not winning.

55:15

And so just just like the, you know, the four year old kid that doesn't want to doesn't want to play the game, because he lost or thinks he might lose.

55:28

There's the same that same instinct is still in every man grown up, who who goes the passivity is, well, what if I lose?

55:37

What if I fail? And we like to we like to pick battles that we're pretty sure we can win. And there's a kind of wise strategy in some instances of you know, you know, how are you going to run your business and you know, which battles you pick?

55:54

There's there's wisdom that I mean, Jesus says, don't just go to battle without counting your troops. You don't want to get halfway there and realize that you can't win the battle.

56:03

But there's a kind of cowardly despair that grips many men who say but I just can't leave my family.

56:12

That will be really hard. I just can't I can't confront my wife over a certain sin or I just can't do it's just too hard.

56:21

It's just too difficult. And, and I, and I think we have to think that I would go back to is but remember, the goal in all of this is that the model here is sanctification.

56:34

The model here is the post millennial hope. And, and the and the foundation of it all is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

56:45

And so there are some there are some battles you're not required to do.

56:52

But there's a whole bunch, but you are required to be obedient. You are required to be obedient, you may not have to start a new business, you might say, you know,

57:02

Kendall mentioned starting a business, but I don't know if I want to start a business. Well, maybe, maybe not. But you are required to love your wife like Christ love the church and gave himself for you are required to raise your children up in the nurture and admonition of the

57:15

Lord, you are required to guard, protect and provide for them. You are required by God to be a member of a local church, giving and serving and accountable, and so forth.

57:25

You are required to be a faithful witness of Jesus in all of your life, giving glory to give. Start there, just start at the basics, the things that you are required by God to do.

57:36

And, and just and the thing is, is that you nothing really good comes really easy.

57:45

Amen. I mean, you know, just think about all the best things in your life. You know, almost none of them were handed to you on a silver platter.

57:55

Some of them you might have been greatly blessed with maybe really almost out of nowhere. But some of the best stuff that you have was hard.

58:05

And, and so part of what men have to also recover is the glory of the struggle.

58:11

Yeah. The glory of, you know, trying and failing, trying and failing, trying part of the glory.

58:23

There is great glory in getting back up again. Yeah. Don't Don't forget that. I mean, and you everybody, you know, every man loves a good

58:31

Rocky movie. You know, every, every man loves a good war movie. And almost always, two thirds of the way through the film, you know, what's going to happen.

58:41

You're, he's going to get knocked down, he's going to have a massive discouragement, he's going to get hurt, you know, the enemy is going to be far bigger or stronger than we anticipated.

58:51

That's part of the story. And it's part of the glory. Now, now the odds are even doubled, tripled, right?

58:59

And what are you going to do with that? And so I think that's, I think one of the biggest obstacles to, to men being active and everything like you're saying, and the reason why we're so tempted to passivity is because I think we forget the glory and the struggle.

59:15

We forget the glory in in the fight frequently against ourselves.

59:21

I don't I don't want to get up. I don't want to try harder. I don't want to I don't want to do this anymore. But, but we were made for that.

59:29

We God made us strong, the glory of men is their strength. And and part of that is, is includes pushing until you can't push any further, and sometimes falling down, sometimes messing up, sometimes failing, and getting back up, acknowledging the failure, learning from the mistake, and going again, right and recognizing there's glory there.

59:52

And he was faithful in the little things will be faithful in much. Yeah, I think about Lord of the

59:59

Rings, just, you know, as an example, you imagine when, when Gandalf tells

01:00:05

Frodo what this ring is, and what it's going to require. And then he, you know, at the at Rivendell, he says,

01:00:11

No, no, no, I'm good. I don't want to do this. It's too hard. It was totally robbed that story of all of the glory that was accomplished through it.

01:00:19

And that's the same for every story. And it's the same for our stories. Right. The post millennial hope is this.

01:00:26

So the we don't believe that the the new heavens and new earth are going to just, they're not just going to descend.

01:00:37

You know, like, you know, like the Air Force arriving or something like this, it's not just gonna, you know, it doesn't come like that.

01:00:44

It comes like a mustard seed. That's a tiny seed planted in the ground slowly grows. It comes like leaven in a whole bunch of flour slowly leavening the whole loaf.

01:00:55

It comes like wine, slowly fermenting.

01:01:00

It comes like a tiny, tiny zygote in a mother's womb, growing to a full man.

01:01:11

Yeah, it it, which, which is to say it comes through struggle. It comes by patience, it comes by a meandering route.

01:01:22

It's, and this is God's way, again, could have zapped could have done the Thanos thing, as you mentioned earlier, and said,

01:01:30

Now you're holy. Now the world is perfect. And instead, Christ came and he modeled this for us.

01:01:37

He, he, he was conceived as I go in his mother's womb by the

01:01:42

Holy Spirit. He went through the process of being formed as a baby in his mother's womb, being born as a child in this world, growing up through all the vicissitudes and challenges and oddities of life, even even as a perfect human being.

01:02:01

But still, I mean, you know, like, why take 30 years? You know,

01:02:07

I mean, like, why? Because apparently God is glorified in the process, right?

01:02:13

God is glory in the process. And also, like, just Jesus could have died for us in his sleep, he could have had a heart attack and died the perfect life.

01:02:22

Why God chose the most brutal struggle that that's humanly possible, which is

01:02:28

Roman crucifixion. And that that struggle was where Jesus gained his greatest glory was for that hour that he came, that should teach us as men how the kind of life that he's called us to live as well.

01:02:40

It reminds me of all this reminds me of Romans five, Paul says, therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

01:02:47

Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also we have access by faith into this grace, wherein we stand and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

01:02:57

And then he says this, and not only so, but we glory in tribulations also, a man knowing that tribulation work with patients and patients experience and experience hope and hope, make us not ashamed because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the

01:03:13

Holy Ghost, which is given unto us. So we I mean, that that's we rejoice in hope of the glory of God and we glory and tribulations we glory even in the trials, even in the challenges and even in the difficulty, it's it's, you know, that we just need to remember as men that God's made us for the challenge.

01:03:32

He's made us to keep fighting through faithfully, to get back up again, confess the sin, make it right, get clean, get back in fellowship, get back to work, go back to it.

01:03:45

That's all our heroes, all our heroes did that Jesus, of course, the central one, but all the all the great men of history, who we want to be like, were men of courage and valor.

01:03:59

And particularly because they were so patient. And they they got back up again. And they gloried in the tribulation, they gloried in the trial.

01:04:10

Brother, we we just crossed over an hour. And honestly, I wasn't even aware of how fast this conversation has gone, because it's been so stimulating to me.

01:04:18

I hope it's been stimulating to you as well at home. And brother, just if you could, because I want to honor your time as well.

01:04:25

Close us out as a pastor, you pastored many men in your, in your tenure as a pastor, what's the last thing that you would want to leave our men with here?

01:04:37

I would just I'll just reiterate what we've already touched on. And I would just say, don't underestimate the little things.

01:04:45

Every man again, we're wired for glory. And so you all we all have this instinct of,

01:04:51

I want to take over the world, which is glorious, which is really glorious, you should want to do that you should want to make you should want to leave the biggest imprint on the world that you possibly can.

01:05:03

That's a good desire. And what you need to remember is that the only way there is is by little faithfulness, little steps of faithfulness.

01:05:14

If you get up one morning, and you're like me, and you don't usually run, and you decide, you know,

01:05:20

I want to run a marathon. Well, if you just start running, and you think you're going to run 26 miles today, you're, you know, unless you're a freak, you know, you're gonna, you know, you're going to get maybe through mile, you know, three, and keel over.

01:05:37

The only way to run a marathon is you've got to run a little bit today, and a little bit tomorrow, and a little bit the next day.

01:05:45

And again, the principle is, Jesus says, he was faithful, little be faithful and much.

01:05:52

It's Remember, it's the, it's those who are faithful with the little talents that he gives.

01:05:59

Don't say I've been given so little and then bury it. Whatever you've been given, invest it, whatever you've been given, spend that faithfully.

01:06:10

Today, spend that faithfully today. So if you have a wife, love her faithfully today, if you have kids, love them faithfully today, be faithful those talents today.

01:06:23

Read your Bible today, confess your sins today. Have no nothing on your no guilty conscience, nothing on your conscience at all completely clean conscience.

01:06:34

Get clean today. Tell the truth today, work hard today. And then do it again tomorrow.

01:06:41

And then do it again the next day, the most faithful leaders, the most faithful heroes were faithful every day in the little things.

01:06:49

And what happens is all those little things they they build, by God's blessing, they start to multiply.

01:06:55

And what seemed really simple and maybe mundane, turns doubles, and then triples, and then quadruples, right?

01:07:03

And then you can't keep up with it. So trust God, trust that there is absolutely an imperishable crown awaiting those who seek after glory, honor, and immortality.

01:07:17

It says in Romans two, there absolutely is that glory for all men who truly want it from their

01:07:24

Lord. And so but be faithful in the little things. All the great

01:07:29

Olympians, all the great, you know, the Super Bowl champions, they get up every day. And they work out, you know, they don't sit on the couch and, you know, flipping channels waiting for the

01:07:41

Super Bowl. They don't sit on the couch, waiting for the Olympics. They're working out every day.

01:07:47

So be in the word every day, be in prayer every day, go to church faithfully, love your wife, love your people, love your kids, confess your sins, be faithful in little things every day, and trust

01:07:57

God that he'll bless you with even greater things. Amen. Amen. So good. We despise the little things, don't we?

01:08:04

Often, and, and the word even says do not despise the little things. Right. So brother, thank you so much.

01:08:11

Tell us where we can find you right now. I know you've got things going on. You've got projects you're working on. How can we support you as a channel?

01:08:19

Oh, sure. My personal blog is tobyjsumpter .com.

01:08:25

And there's some links there to some of the things I'm working on. And then crosspolitic .com

01:08:30

is you can catch all the shows or fightleftfeast .com. Christ is King, baby. Amen.

01:08:36

Amen. And, and we're, I'm always I've got some books and seminars and things at Canon Press as well.

01:08:44

So praise the Lord. Brother, thank you so much for coming on today. And the Lord bless you. Thank you for having me, man.

01:08:51

It was great to hang out. Absolutely. Thank you so much for watching another episode of the broadcast.

01:09:00

So thankful for Pastor Toby Sumter stopping by the broadcast and giving us all the wisdom and insight that he did today.

01:09:06

Thank you, brother. If you want to check out more of Pastor Toby's content, you can check him out on Cross Politics podcast, which is on YouTube and wherever else find podcaster delivered.

01:09:16

You can check him out on his blog, which is having two legs .com. And then you can also check him out at Christkirk .com.

01:09:23

He's got lots of sermons on there. And just lots of excellent material. You can also find his books and other materials on the

01:09:31

Canon Plus app. I would significantly encourage you to check out the Canon Plus app.

01:09:36

It's incredible. I use it all the time. And then finally, thank you for supporting this show.

01:09:42

Without you, we couldn't be doing what we're doing. And we are inching our way towards 1000 subscribers, which is incredible.

01:09:49

I'm so thankful for you. Thankful for the fact that you came and stopped by with us today. And until next time,