Confronting Mormonism On The Street

The Holy Ghost, Jesus as Elohim’s Son, and the LDS View of Divine Communication

I don't have a full grasp of the Holy Ghost, but he's pretty much the technician, because he can touch everybody at the same time, and in the ways that they're familiar with. So it's like the computer guys here, running the show.

He's not running the show.

I got the word cut out for them, that's for sure.

But I believe that Jesus is Elohim's son. And you are, I am, and they're daughters. I think it's that simple.

Yeah, I think one of the things here, like, we're obviously out here tonight as Christians, and I think the first time I was out here was 1997. It was a little different. A little different, and like, it was interesting too, because...

Are you seeing the new one?

This year's.

This year's? This is the first time I've actually been out here this year.

You're gonna love it.

Okay.

So there were things that still were subtle, even back then. There was a poem on a pamphlet, and it was either 1997 or 1998 I was out here, I was in high school. Just put all that behind you. A little bit younger.

Just put all that behind you, because it's a new show. It's all about Christ's miracles. It's seriously enjoyable. It's got little kids that sing, it's got older people that sing solos. So it's totally cool.

You'll feel the Holy Ghost. This is my fourth night.

Right.

Yeah, my fourth night here.

Mm-hmm.

And I've felt it all three nights I've come.

Right.

And, you know, when you leave, you can ask God if the things are true.

Right.

Just ask Him sometime.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know you guys usually will say that James 1, 5 says you're supposed to pray about whether or not something is true.

I think that a lot of people, even in the church, don't understand that. It's a conversation that we can have.

Right.

Because a lot of people get after us for Joseph Smith. The mantra at the time was, you can't speak to God. You can't put an image on God. Because for a long time, they were taught that God doesn't have an image and that you can't talk to Him.

Well, Joseph Smith came around and said, I talk to Him. He talked to me.

Right.

My personal experience is that He does talk to us. And if we pray like He's six feet from us or within six feet from us, things change.

They seriously change. Let me ask you this. If someone was to ask me, like I'm a deacon at a local church, and say I'm at a pastoral counseling conference, I'm talking with a couple, and they're living together and they're sleeping together.

And I used to say, you guys can't do that. This is wrong. This is sin. And they say, well.

You can't get the full blessings if you're not keeping the commandments.

Right.

But they say, well, we prayed about it. We feel that it's OK. How would you differ from that?

God would really like everybody to be married that's sleeping together.

Well, right. But the reason why, pretty much you mentioned commandments, though, because in fact, if they're sincere, they are living, they're acting in violation of God's commandments. So my point being is that.

They might be living it to the best of their knowledge.

Right.

So I don't I'm not going to judge them.

Right.

Well, we should. We should, however, judge righteously. So when Jesus says judge with righteous judgment, my point being is that we have to whatever your experience is. I mean, I've had similar experience on the mission field as well, too, where you're getting directions of where to go.

But ultimately, we have to take what is what is being said and tested by God's word to see if it's a conformity of Scripture, because the Bible does warn about other gospels, other Jesus's and first John for one.

It says you need.

Yeah.

It says you need to test the spirits for not every single spirit that testifies is from. It comes from God, but is also the spirit of Antichrist.

That's true.

Testing Truth by Scripture Rather Than Experience

So just real quick, when it comes to and I want to stick to the essentials about ultimately like Jesus Christ, who is he? So in spite of your experiences, your sincerity, we say.

Right.

But the question is, which Jesus? How do you know you have the Jesus of Scripture? Remember, Jesus himself said there was driving with me in Japan.

Right.

Well, it is. Is he. Is he your brother? Is he the spirit brother of Lucifer? Is he? Is he the first one in the pre-existence?

Right.

And that's why he knows us like he does.

Right.

Because he can remember what we were like before we were born.

Yeah.

When we were born, we came through a veil like a curtain. We can't remember what went on behind us. If we did, there'd be a lot of us. It'd be a lot different.

Right.

We'd be ashamed of some of the things.

So in Colossians 1, when Paul talks about the preeminent, the supremacy and the preeminence of Christ, the one thing he says, he says, For Christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

For all things, for by him all things were created, both invisible. Yeah, both invisible or invisible, whether thrones, powers, or principalities, all things visible and invisible were created by him and for him, which emphatically is saying that.

Both invisible to our human eyes.

Well, both of the seen and the unseen realms, which was Satan would fall under that category. So according to that, according to scripture, Jesus Christ created all things, including Satan. And in fact, in Zechariah 12, 1, when you talk about the preexistence, it says that God forms the spirit of man within him.

I believe that our Heavenly Father created all of the spirits.

What would you do in Colossians 1? I can show you the passage on my phone.

Yeah.

All right. That's fine. I understand all that you're here for.

Right.

But what I know is that Jesus Christ is our brother. He's our savior. And he enables us to live freely in our lives. We don't have to carry the sins with us.

Could you show me, are you aware of any passages in scripture where it says that Jesus Christ is our brother? Because when you actually look in scripture, according, for example, John 1, 1, when Christ is the prototokos, the logos.

I don't spend a lot of time in the Bible.

Well, you should. You should spend more time. That's why we're out here, and that's why we care for you, man.

I should because I've been promised that I'd learn lots of things if I did. But from my own experience, he's been next to me probably 30, well, 25 years of my life. He's been available whenever I've asked him a question.

Right, and I could bear you my testimony of the same thing.

I asked him, I said, how am I doing here?

Yeah.

Have you ever done that?

Oh, all the time.

Okay, he'll let you know. And it's just like we're talking here.

Yeah.

He doesn't like arguments. He said that to the apostles. He says that to everybody. Let's quit the contentions on this. He says that's not going to work with us.

Just so you know, in fairness, there's nowhere in the Gospel where Jesus says that. It says it to the apostles. In Jude 3, it says, it talks about.

He says it to the apostles. He says, why are you in contentions on this? Okay, he says, we don't need to do this, and it's there. But as far as I know, I have talked with him like we're talking here.

Right.

I've talked with Heavenly Father like we're talking here. Most of the time, I have felt Jesus talk to me. But Heavenly Father talks to us just the same if we listen. And you'll feel the Spirit here. And that's how we can feel Heavenly Father talking to us.

So is how you feel then the standard of how you determine what is true and what is not?

Everybody needs to have testimony for themselves.

So what would you say that Jesus said in regards to how you determine truth? He's got it set up in the Bible. Yeah, so just for example, Jesus was specific. So if you remember, there's a conversation.

It's one of my favorite conversations between him and Jesus and Pontius Pilate where Jesus says, behold, I say, anyone who is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate basically walks away and says, what is truth?

Asking the question.

Yeah, he says that to us.

Right.

And so when Jesus talks about being the way, the truth, and life, he always talked about specifics in regards to having an absolute standard. And so in the high priestly prayer in John 17, specifically, I believe, John 17, 17, where Jesus says, Father, sanctify them by thy word.

Okay, who is he talking to? To the Father.

Okay, who's that?

The Father is God.

Okay, that's what we understand. And Jesus was talking to his Father. Sometimes he talks as if he's using the words of the Father, but he's commissioned from the Father.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, he humbled himself. So in Philippians 2, it said that Christ being in the very form of God, he humbled himself, and so it was subtraction by addition. But just talking about the standard of truth because you were talking just a moment ago, and there's so many different ways we can go, but specifically, like how do we determine what is true?

And so I've been out here for 20 years.

There are a lot of people in the church, the LDS church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that haven't inquired of the Lord.

That haven't?

That haven't.

Hmm.

Because, like, in this last conference we had, one of our authorities talked about—.

I was up there.

One of the general authorities talked about those who cannot abide this law will get a different law. He said those who cannot abide that law will get a different one. He said there is a kingdom of glory for everyone.

A kingdom of glory, so it's better than what we have here. For everyone. For the kingdom that they will abide.

Either celestial, terrestrial, or celestial, depending. Depending on which one.

There's probably one for everyone because everybody shows their testimony a different way.

Right.

I've really got to get back there because she's going to think I did something.

Yeah.

Well, here, take one of these. Well, I'll take one. But just understand that everybody practices their testimony, the way they feel differently.

Oh, yeah.

It's just how we are. Oh, 100%. We have different fingerprints.

We have different everything.

Yeah, and the only thing is, one of the reasons, too, why we're out here is when I'm talking about the nature of truth is that people can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. Completely wrong. Yeah, and it says there's a way, in Proverbs it says there's a way which seems right unto a man, but the ways that end therein are the way of death.

Jesus himself talked, and when he was talking about the scribes and the Sadducees, he said they are so bold.

Aren't you glad you didn't have to deal with those guys?

Them?

Yeah.

Oh, I'm sure you had a work cut out for if you were engaging them.

Yeah, he had a problem with them.

Yes, but just bear in mind, just think about this real quickly. He would say these are people who, they're so bold and they're so zealous, they would literally cross the sea to make someone a convert, and when they do, they make them twice the child of hell.

So according to the standard that Jesus gave, like their testimony and then how they felt wasn't good enough, and that's why we would just say...

You've got 15 minutes.

Yeah.

I don't want to cut you off.

Yeah.

But I really have a commitment over here.

Yeah, if you want to check back later on, I'd love to talk to you.

Listen to the show.

Yeah.

If you've never seen it before, I promise you, you'll have a great time with it.

Sounds good, man. I appreciate you talking.

Because it's 100 Christ and his miracles, but you have testimonies of the blind man. The man who couldn't walk was...

Yeah.

And that's a fun story because if you go to City of David on YouTube, they've found the pulavaceta, and it's not a little one. I've always thought it was like 10 feet or 20 feet by 20 feet. It's about as long as these three trailers and as wide as the...

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's at City of David on YouTube.

Okay.

And they've been digging it out. They're digging in a parking lot. These are like steps, so he dug a little further than that. It's way cool.

Awesome, man.

Going back to our first question, when I asked you who is Jesus, I would encourage you to look in the scripture and Bible and see who Jesus is. I'm at the point where I've talked to him enough. I've talked to him enough.

So I don't doubt what I've heard from him.

Yeah.

The reason why we care for you is that we don't think you're talking to the eternal God who created all things.

It wasn't something that I'd felt before. It wasn't... Well, I've felt it all my life because I've had... You know, my mother read the Bible to me every morning for breakfast. We went through it five or six times while we're eating my oatmeal or whatever.

She'd sit there and read the Bible to us and she'd read all the way through. Some of it was... Really? What's that about?

Yeah.

We've had a good time. But I really didn't have a close relationship with Jesus until I started driving and needed a car. I worked at Home Depot. I'm, you know, cutting wood for people and... Does this look all right?

Yeah, it's okay to me. So I cut it and it's fine.

So...

It's a conversation. You ask, what do I feel about Jesus? He's the best friend I've ever had.

Okay.

And what do I feel about God the Father? He's a very busy man. But he understands each of us. He knows what we want. And he'll communicate with us.

But is Jesus the eternal God? Inhuman, that he became man?

He...

See, we all progress to that point.

Okay?

We progress to the point of becoming God.

We can. We want to abide by that law.

Yeah.

Okay.

He is our way to the Father.

Yeah.

I am the way, the truth and the life is what he says.

Yeah.

He is, through his atonement, our way to get from the sinful state that Adam and Eve dealt with, to get us back to Heavenly Father. And I know that as I live.

Uh-huh.

I know it as strong as I live.

Okay.

Heavenly Father, I believe there's a Heavenly Mother. And everybody would give her all kinds of crap if she showed herself a little bit more than she did. And would you like that?

You would not.

You wouldn't.

I'm actually... One of the reasons why I'm loving talking to you is because you're actually defining actual Mormon theology, where typically out here versus... When I'd be out here 20 years ago...

You know what Jesus likes.

A lot of them, a lot of... And in some sense it's true because a lot of people who are LDS, they don't even know. If I would say to them what you just said to me, a lot of them would be confused and wouldn't even deny it and be unsure.

So in that sense, like, I already... I've already really appreciate and respect this conversation for sure.

Well, my name's Ray.

Ray, yes.

And Ray Hunt's my name.

Uh-huh.

But...

Literally, with God the Father, with his life, with Jesus,.

We can talk to him.

We can say, like, how are you doing today? That's a pretty interesting question.

Uh-huh.

Because a lot of... Sometimes the Lord is just, you know...

Yeah.

They've got things on their mind and things aren't working.

Yeah.

So Ray, what's interesting though is that, like, you know, you're sharing with me a lot of your stories and experiences. I've had friends as well who are Jehovah's Witnesses. I've talked to people who are in Scientology.

I've talked with people that, from a broad variety of backgrounds and world religions, but would have some sort of story about some emphatic experience about either... And not even Jesus. So, like, there's people who believe...

Like, I had a friend who, back in 2012, she was at the Mayan temple and she was sincere in her heart.

About 30 seconds, no problem.

Yeah.

And she believes she's going to transcend the 5D consciousness. And she was sincere about it. So my point being is that you can't have experience be the authority. But let me just show you one thing. If there's anything I'm going to have you...

Yeah, do it.

Look at it and then look at... And then you can come back to me if you want to talk about it later. Because you're talking about becoming a god one day and be one god, so...

I'm not going to back talk to you.

So, no, Isaiah 43 .10 says, Hear my witnesses, sayeth the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may believe and understand that I am he. Before me there is no god formed, neither shall there be after me.

So the God of the Bible says there's no gods before God, and there's no gods after him. And later on he says...

Throughout the Bible, we have God the Father who speaks.

Right.

And we have Jehovah that speaks. And with Jehovah, there's no other one before him for this earth.

But it's way different.

Because he created it. He and Adam and...

Yeah.

Elohim created this earth.

Right.

Except there's nowhere in the Bible that says, Of this earth. It says he's from the heaven above and from the earth beneath.

But, yeah, it's...

But he also...

From our point of view.

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

Well, you have to...

We know there's other worlds.

Mm-hmm.

We believe there's other worlds.

Other worlds with other gods?

Well, there's got to be leaders on them.

Isn't there?

Well, wouldn't you want to take those assumptions and conform by Scripture? Because that's the standard that Jesus gave. And so, my point in being is, in spite of, you know, your experience or tradition of what you've read by other, you know, different prophets or teachings of the LDS Church, if the God of Scripture says, There's no gods before me and there's no gods after me, and he says, I don't even know of any other gods, yeah, this is supposed to be a god who was once a man who lived on another planet who followed the eternal laws of progression.

All I know on that is we have Elohim. And that's... Elohim is actually plural in Hebrew.

Mm-hmm.

Elohim is a singular.

Mm-hmm.

So that changes everything right there. Wait a minute. That's plural. That's in the Jewish word.

Okay?

Christ and Heavenly Father have the same mission on the earth for us.

Mm-hmm.

For us to be happy and to be able to come back to them. The Holy Ghost is the testifier of everything that they talk about.

Right.

And you're going to feel it.

Yeah.

I promise you, you're going to feel it.

Right, but remember, feeling is not the standard that the Lord Jesus gave.

But...

He gave the words the standard.

The mantra is that we can't talk to Heavenly Father. We can't talk to God.

Oh, no.

Jesus is our great high priest. If you read the book of Hebrews, he's our great mediator. Yeah, well, no, no.

I love your shirt.

Yeah, right.

When did you come to Okinawa? About a year and a half ago.

Yay.

How did you get in with COVID? It was right before COVID. Oh, was it?

Yeah.

Just barely.

I picked up my son. We got out a couple months before COVID. Okinawa is one of my favorite places. They've got glass. I was telling them. They've got glass that looks like strawberry jello.

Yeah.

They had sorbet cups or whatever that looked like they had jello in them. I said, why do they have jello in the cups? They said, no, that's the glass. Just beautiful glass.

Anyway.

All right.

Great talking to you, Ray.

I really have to go.

All right. No problem. No problem.

We'll hear if you want to chat.