Responding to LGBT Brandan Robertson's Comments

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Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

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Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. Is he hung up on me?

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Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

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That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Take an amazing journey and move your heart so you will never be the same again.

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Forever, oh Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens. Your faithfulness endures to all generations.

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You have established the earth and it stands fast. Oh how I love your law.

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It is my meditation all the day. Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies for it is ever with me.

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We could do this all day. That's Psalm 119. I mean, it would probably take all day to actually read Psalm 119.

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It's a big one. Longest chapter in the Bible. And it's in the

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Psalm book. And Psalm 119, it's an amazing book about God's law.

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A song about God's law. It is phenomenal and amazing. This is Apologia Radio.

02:14

It's the gospel heard around the world, everybody. I'm Jeff the Callman Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.

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06:01

You make everything we do possible. So thank you, thank you. Hey, big week. Lots has happened for us as pastors.

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It's been busy. It's been a busy week. Busy season. We have tons of stuff happening right now. I wanted to let everybody know you're watching live, so I don't want to forget to say it.

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If you're in Ohio right now, in Ohio, our team probably just got off the airplane.

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In Ohio, our team is there for a meeting tomorrow. Can you... Where's the information on that?

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I'm sorry. I didn't have it pulled up. Luke will find it, so we'll announce it. But here's the deal. We have a bill that we didn't anticipate happening in Ohio right now.

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A very, very amazing, praiseworthy moment. A bill of equal protection for all humans from fertilization.

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In the state of Ohio, you know that we've been able to work with other Christians and organizations. We're helping them. Some are helping us with our bills.

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The church is working together in all these different states to get these bills of abolition in. We got one in Ohio, so we have a pastor's meeting happening tomorrow.

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This is Thursday. Tomorrow, Friday. What is tomorrow's date? Tomorrow's the 17th.

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So, March the 17th, I believe. St. Paddy's Day. St. Paddy's Day. Is that why you wear green? You got a green little clothe?

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Well, that's my Irish one, but I wore this one specifically, which actually we did get for Ireland.

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For Brandon. But for Brandon. Yeah, there you go. That's a real harmony right there. See that? That's a man. That's a woman.

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She's got a dress on. He doesn't. And there's a, see? There you go. A cross. There you go. See a circle?

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Harmony. Right there. Man shall leave his father and his mother, cleave to his wife, become one flesh. That's the way it's supposed to be.

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We did get these for Ireland, so it worked out well. The info, you want it now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it now while we're on it. We're going to get right to our discussion.

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Brandon, just a moment here. I want to make sure everyone knows this is going on. Yeah, so just go to inabortionnow .com slash

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Ohio and all the information's there, but it is tomorrow at 12 p .m. 8500

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Memorial Drive in Plain City, Ohio. You can RSVP. If you want to go there, and I believe the live stream will be up there tomorrow.

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inabortionnow .com slash Ohio. O -H or O, I think you can do both. O -H -I -O. Oh, it's the full thing now.

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Okay, Ohio. So inabortionnow .com forward slash Ohio RSVP because they're also doing lunch for everybody.

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I wasn't able to go. I had every plan to be there, so I apologize to everyone in Ohio. I so wish

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I could be there, but we have a lot of pastoral responsibilities and other things going on right now. I wasn't able to make it. So the team is there.

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Conover's going to be there. He'll do a stellar job. And so if you're a pastor or a leader in the state of Ohio, you want to help us with this bill, get to that meeting tomorrow at noon.

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Just rewind this after we're done here and get all the info from Pastor Luke. All right, so it's been a busy week as well because, let me get everyone into it real fast.

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You may have caught the discussion that we had with Brandon Robertson. Brandon Robertson's a fairly well -known

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LGBT TikTok reverend. He is the guy that you've seen videos of, probably, that said that Jesus repented of his racism.

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He's the guy that called corn good and beautiful.

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And he's also the guy that encourages people to satisfy their lusts and to go along with it, with the

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LGBT stuff. And so you've probably seen him also recently because there's a popular video, I think even Ray Comfort shared it, where Brandon's in the middle of teaching in a church and there's like,

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I don't know, thunder or something and the lights go out. Have you seen that? No. You haven't seen that?

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No. Really? Uh -uh. Oh, maybe I can pull it up here. Yeah, pull it up. Yeah, I will pull it up.

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So basically he's teaching. The lights go out. I'm surprised you didn't see that. Brandon Robertson.

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Let's see here. Lights. There you go. It was already a thing. I can only stand so much of that theology.

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Yeah. No, I understand. I absolutely understand. I've watched the required minimum.

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Yeah, the required minimum. Alright, let's see here. I'm not sure. There's no sound on this one. What's going on?

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Do I have no sound here now? He's been going after our boy Jon Root recently too because Jon shared something.

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I can't remember what it was, but it was going after this gay theology and there's a picture at this gay church and I guess he's in the picture, but it's his bag.

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There's no way of knowing it's him and he got real upset at Jon. Really? He's been going after him on Twitter. Huh. Well, this is all

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I can find right now. It's just the short, but take a peek at this, guys. Minorities, sexual and gender minorities have something to teach the church about dying to self, about new life, about...

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That is not a sign of God's judgment, okay?

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Well, I don't know. Was it? So anyway, I'm just trying to introduce everybody.

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So that's, you know, that's Brandon Robertson and here's the story. So my daughter works for Apologia Studios.

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She does shorts and website stuff. Pastor Zach's daughter works for us as well. My other daughter also works for us and soon

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Evie will be working for us. I guess that's how it works. So Sailor put up a clip of one of the shows we did on Brandon Robertson onto some of our platforms and she put one on Instagram and so he responded.

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Brandon Robertson actually made contact with us first. Yeah. So he responded and said, and you're going to hear him in a moment here, essentially said like, you know, hey, how about talking to me instead of past me?

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And as soon as I saw it, Sailor said, hey, Dad, he got back. He says he wants to talk. I said, great. So I immediately messaged him.

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I was like, let's do this. And so we let him know that it would just be him and Dr.

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White and myself. And he's to be commended. I will say it.

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He's to be commended for his courage and his willingness to have the conversation. Yeah, no, it's great.

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I was very grateful that he had the courage to say he would actually come on to have the conversation with us.

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And so he did. And we'll go through some of his comments here. So basically, we had the discussion.

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We knew we had limited time. So we tried to show respect for him. We went about 10 minutes over because he was also engaging in the conversation.

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But we finally let him go. And, you know, that video has been seen probably at this point, probably about a million times across platforms and other people's content that they've made off of that.

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And here's our desire. And our desire is to provide a reason for the hope that's within us, of course, to defend the

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Christian faith, the historic Christian faith, the true Christian faith and gospel against someone like Brandon, who is heretical.

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He is, by definition, an apostate. You guys remember that in the last show, somewhere,

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I think, near the end, he said, I'm not interested in playing the orthodoxy game, to which could easily be said, right, that's why you're an apostate.

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Yeah, exactly. By definition. So he admits it. So a lot of people, I think today, and I want to just start this conversation this way.

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Some people are just very sensitive to challenging somebody, saying the hard things.

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And I do believe that we were gracious towards Brandon. We were respectful. We tried to show honor to him.

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We tried to be loving to him. But we also said some hard things. And much of modern evangelicalism doesn't like that.

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They don't like to say the hard things. Thou shalt be nice. Yeah, you should. It's the 11th commandment.

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Yeah, you shall be nice. And that is, I'm sorry, not how the Christian faith comes into the world. Jesus said very hard things to religious leaders who were leading people astray.

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He called them whitewashed tombs. That means that you're full of dead, stinking, rotting bones.

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But you look nice on the outside. You look nice on the outside. You look at John the Baptist. He comes in, calls these religious leaders a brood of vipers, who warns you to flee from the wrath about to come.

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You have, of course, the Apostle Paul and Peter and Jude naming false teachers and their position in very clear terms, biblically, you don't have to use a butter knife with a false teacher.

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You use a serrated edge because they deserve it. And that is to say, you can say the hard, truthful, cutting things to someone in that context.

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Now, here's the deal. You don't want to live your life constantly using a serrated edge against everybody.

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As my friend says, there's a speed limit for the sidewalk and one for the highway and they're different for a reason.

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Different contexts. And so, yes, we were, as pastors, ministers of the Gospel, very direct with a man who is leading people astray.

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A man who is promoting lust. A man who promotes and says pornography is beautiful. This man is an apostate, so we said those things to him.

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We didn't yell them at him. We weren't mean -spirited. We just told the truth. And so, a lot of people didn't like that.

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And I want to just say, I think it's the duty of the Christian church to speak the truth. What I was not going to do,

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Luke, and I'll let you say something to this, I prayed very hard and long before the conversation with Brandon.

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I prayed for his soul. I prayed for God to open his eyes. I still pray that God frees him and God brings him to repentance. I don't want

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Brandon to be hurt. I don't want Brandon to be under judgment. I also don't want the people that are listening to him and influenced by him to experience that either.

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And so, yes, I said the hard things to him. I want him to repent of his sin. And I've seen

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Brandon interact with others. I've seen him interact with others online in different forums.

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And the one thing that I had to pray about, and I'm just being honest with everybody here, I had to pray about making sure that I was faithful in loving

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Brandon and faithful in loving Jesus. And one of the things I wanted to avoid, and your flesh will always try to get you to do this,

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I wanted to avoid placating to Brandon or flattering

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Brandon. One of the things I've seen in conversations between Brandon and others is that kind of placating and flattering.

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And I don't think it's loving to Brandon to flatter him. I don't think it's loving to him to placate to him.

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I think what's loving to Brandon is to tell him the truth, to refute his position, and it is easily refutable, and to call him to repentance.

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And that means, if he's a deceiver, you need to tell him. Brandon, you're a deceiver. You need to repent.

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If he's an apostate, say it. You've abandoned the Christian faith. You are an apostate. Say it to him.

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And say it to him, of course, with as much love as possible, but say it to him. You know, it's a lot of times in our culture, evangelicals believe like, you know, you're only going to win somebody if you're just super nice to them and sweet and loving and all honey and powdered sugar.

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But, you know, the truth is, is what led you to Jesus was the truth about your condition.

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Hopefully. I will say this. Look, if you got led to Jesus through this like squishy, nice, sweet, surfer

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Jesus message and never had a conviction over your sin, you don't know Jesus. You need to repent and turn to Christ because Christian experience is the law of God confronting us, the holiness of God confronting us, and we then turn to flee to Christ for salvation and rescue.

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And we feel the weight of our sin and our guilt and shame, so we turn to Jesus. You're not going to get someone else to come to Christ any other way because that's how the gospel comes into the world.

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It's here's who God is. Here's where you're at. You need to turn and believe in Jesus. Brandon needs to hear that too.

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Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, I mean, even Jesus, you know, he had prophet, priest, and king, right?

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So there was a time where he acted kingly. There was a time where he was, he acted like a prophet, like with the

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Pharisees, for example, or when he cleaned out the temple. And then there was a time when he was priestly like the woman at the well.

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So like there's, there's a time and a place for everything. And yeah, like he's, he's actively very popular making or preaching a false gospel and one that damns people to hell.

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Yeah. He actually indicted God's word and said that it's filled with immorality. Yeah. I mean, he said some awful things.

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Yeah. He said, yeah. So the point is, is that you have to deal with a false teacher like Brandon in a different way than you treat the average person on the street, right?

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The common, you guys have seen our videos when Pastor Luke and I are on the street at the Mormon temple and the average Mormon family walks up to us, we're starting that conversation and engaging that conversation in a much different way than I'm going to deal with a false teacher and apostate like Brandon Robertson because of the nature of the case.

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And you can see that demonstrated very clearly in the New Testament. The apostles and Jesus handle false teachers and religious deceivers in a very different way than they handle the common man.

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And so that's why we did what we did. We want to be faithful to Jesus and faithful to Brandon and just simply tell him the truth.

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Yep. So I'm going to play through here because Brandon began responding online and making some videos and some content related to our conversation.

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So we're going to work through his comments, try to do this as quickly as possible and engage a bit with Brandon's response to our radio debate slash discussion.

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Here we go. If you're watching this you've probably seen my recent debate with James White and Jeff Durbin of Apologia Studios.

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After seeing them post content about my TikTok for over a few weeks, I decided to reach out on Instagram about a week ago and say, hey, instead of talking about me, instead of talking past me, why don't you talk to me?

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And to my surprise, Jeff Durbin reached out and invited me to come on the show and to talk with him and James White and discuss the areas that we disagree.

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Now, in our email exchange before the show was recorded, everybody was very cordial.

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It was made to sound like this was going to be a very respectful conversation about our disagreements. And when

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I showed up to do the... So, let's do that. Yeah. I'll just go ahead and read through the conversation so you guys can see it.

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Bring you guys all into this, how this went down. Let me go ahead and pull this up here.

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So, I'll just read through them. So, when he reached out to us, we got back to him and we said, you know, something like, we'd love to, let's make a time.

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And so, we made a time and so, he just basically said, hey Jeff, thanks for reaching out. We'd love to make this happen.

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I've followed your work for over a decade from when I was a teenage apologist working to convince Mormons in my school of the gospel and you had a number of videos attempting that.

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Unfortunately, next Tuesday doesn't work. I have a full -time job and a PhD program so he just sort of explains when he could do it.

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So, he set the time and let's see here. So, I said,

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I said, thank you Brandon. I think we can make things that work. 5 p .m. Arizona time on Tuesday. I'll get the team on it.

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I do appreciate you reaching out to make yourself available to have a conversation. I'm sure from both our perspectives it'll be a helpful conversation for others to hear and explore.

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James White will be joining us on set for that day. It will just be the three of us looking forward to spending time speaking together.

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And so, he gets back to me and says, hey wires crossed. He's available at 5 p .m. his time and so, we fixed that. So, I think we started at 3 p .m.

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our time and I just said, oops and we set it for 3 p .m. and I said, yeah, sorry, 3 p .m.

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will work and I gave him the Zoom link that day. Here's the Zoom link for tomorrow. Thank you for making the commitment.

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We're looking forward to our time together and after it was over, let's see here.

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He said, Jeff, hey, thanks for having me on today. I will admit the two -on -one format was less than ideal but nonetheless, it was great to get a chance to dialogue with you too instead of talking past each other.

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I look forward to sharing this conversation with our communities. Many blessings. I said to him, finally, I'm grateful you came on and I mean it when

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I say it. I admire your commitment and courage to do so. Hopefully, we can talk again sometime. That was our conversations through email, through text and I just want to note that it was

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Brandon that reached out to us and again, I'll say it a thousand times, he is to be commended for that. I admire the man's courage to be willing to come on.

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We let him know in advance. This is Apology Radio. Sometimes we have Luke on. Sometimes I'm not here and Luke is running the show.

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Sometimes there's Joy with us. Sometimes there's Conover and sometimes we have Dr. White on us especially when we have engagements with people that might be helpful for the church.

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I let him know in advance that Dr. White would be on. He knows very well who Dr. James White is. He knows who we are and so he said so like since he was a teenager.

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He's very aware of us. He knew that James was going to be on with me. I thought it would be helpful to have that conversation because Brandon is very well aware of the fact that Pastor James has been doing videos engaging with Brandon Robertson's stuff for a number of years and so this was the moment where hey, let's have a conversation.

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You know that James is saying things about you. You know that I have been saying things about you so let's have this discussion.

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He was notified in advance. I think he was treated very respectfully. Yeah, I agree. He was able to make his case.

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We were able to make our case. It's difficult at times to do things over Zoom because sometimes you can't hear each other. Zoom cuts out.

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All those things but even times where like he was getting you know his mic stepped on I would say no.

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I'd stop and say okay, please tell us how do we need to hear you? How are we misrepresenting you?

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Just tell us your position. And so I think he was handled very respectfully and that's how the conversation went down.

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On Tuesday it started off that way. Before we hit recording and even in the first few minutes of recording

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James White was completely quiet and Jeff Durbin was generally respectful asking me to share my perspective.

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And then very quickly unsurprisingly the debate turned into a rhetorical match.

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James and Jeff are apologists which is a very narrow section of Christian theological teaching that is meant to help folks defend the faith against other beliefs.

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So this is important the word apologist is not just reserved for the

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Christian community. Right? So the Greek word apologia is the word that would even be used in a court of law at the time where you would provide a reasoned defense for your case.

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It's just essentially argue your case. It's just a Greek word that means that. Just a reasoned defense.

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It's used in a court of law it's used for other philosophers and everything else. It's not something that's just narrow towards the

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Christian community and even narrower in the Christian community as these are apologists. We're all called to be apologists.

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1 Peter 3 .15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to give a apologia a reasoned defense for the hope that's within you.

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And so Brandon is actually an apologist. Yeah he is. He's an apologist for the

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LGBT people community. He's an apologist for them. He's an apologist for the homosexual lifestyle.

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He is an apologist. Richard Dawkins is an apologist for atheism. Okay? So I just want to make sure that we correct the idea that this is some narrow domain of the

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Christian fundamentalist church. They're just apologists. Brandon's an apologist too. He's providing a reasoned defense for his case.

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Trying to. Trying to. Trying to. Attempting to. Allegedly. And so that's what we need to find out.

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Is it actually reasonable? Is it consistent? Is it coherent? Part of being a good apologist is being a good debater.

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And Jeff and James are great debaters. They know how to use words and rhetoric. They know how to throw out questions to get people riled up.

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To get people off their game. To confuse people. You see that is an insult.

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Right? Like what are you doing here Brandon? You are. Trying to minimize the damage. Yep. Trying to minimize the damage.

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And your position I believe was exposed for what it is Brandon. And so I do see this is of course damage control.

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But in doing your damage control what are you trying to do here? You're trying to paint us in a very poor light.

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Like we are deceptive. We were arguing with you and trying to confuse people.

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I mean that's what you said there. They do this. They know how to do this. They know how to use rhetoric to confuse people.

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I can tell you from the bottom of my heart and this man knows me. He's known me for 15 years.

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Yep. I'm not doing this to confuse people or to play games or to win trophies or anything like that at all.

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I'm doing this for the glory of Jesus. We had you on because we want to defend the Christian faith against a wolf like you.

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And we're being very direct with you. We didn't speak in a crooked way to you. We didn't flatter you. We told you the truth and yet we were gracious to you.

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Nothing in our communication with you was an attempt to deceive anybody or confuse anybody.

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So that wasn't helpful. So let's just deal with what's said. And I think anybody who watches the interview will see that over the hour that we discussed theology with one another the two of them just kept going at me throwing in different perspectives and oftentimes when

27:21

I try to respond I was spoken over or you can't actually hear my responses.

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I'm not saying that I feel like everything was unfair but I do feel like the debate did not give me the opportunity to clearly articulate some of the key differences between my progressive

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Christian perspective and their fundamentalist Christian perspective. Yeah, I want to reject that outright and I can defend this with the clips themselves.

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I think if anybody watches that discussion and if you haven't seen it yet, do after the show go back and take a look at it.

27:53

It's about an hour and a half total in length. I think the whole thing time with Brandon is about an hour and ten minutes

27:58

I think. Forgive me if I'm off on that. I think it's close to that. I think if anybody watches that you'll see that there's moments where Brandon's talking over us.

28:06

That's just the nature of a radio discussion. He's talking over us. We're talking over him. Then we would stop and make sure okay

28:11

Brandon please tell us your position. So Brandon had adequate and ample time to defend his position.

28:17

And the truth is and I think this can be demonstrated easily is Brandon's position is fallacious. It is unbiblical.

28:24

It is full of errors and inconsistent. And so it falls apart under cross -examination.

28:30

It is easy it is easy for anybody to stand in front of a camera alone and to give your position without cross -examination.

28:39

Brandon that's easy to do. Anyone can do it. People do it all the time. No argument coming back. No cross -examination. It is much more difficult when people know what your position is and know where its inconsistencies are and they cross -examine you and they challenge you.

28:52

You had an ample opportunity to give your case. There were numerous times where we stopped and said please tell us your position.

28:59

Argue your case. And you got you had that opportunity. So I think you know the better thing to do in a video like this

29:05

I believe is just to say okay look when we were on the show Jeff said this I want to expand a little more on that point and just engage with it rather than trying to make it look like it was you were being stepped on you didn't get a chance to give your side because Brandon you did.

29:21

You had your chance to get your side. There were a number of other places we could have gone to have a discussion. We didn't go there because we wanted to try to keep it very narrow and focused and that's what we tried to do.

29:30

We've tried to focus on your epistemology. That means don't get thrown by that guys please epistemology theory of knowledge.

29:36

How do you know? Brandon makes knowledge claims all the time. He's making them in this video knowledge claims.

29:42

Question how do you know? Because you say so like you just assert it you know and that's supposed to be all there is to it.

29:50

You know prison systems are full of people lots of people that make assertions about what they know to be true and what they know to be good.

29:57

They can claim it too and they can assert it but the question is is it true? Is it justified true belief?

30:03

That's knowledge justified true belief. How do you know that? Why is that binding upon me?

30:09

We challenged your epistemology and we challenged you on a few texts a very limited number of texts we challenged you on and we went to the text and we showed you how it was inconsistent.

30:20

I mean even right off the bat here you notice he's you know trying to change the terminology where he says well you know my progressive

30:29

Christianity we're like well no that's Christian apostasy you know and then what did he say he says fundamentalist

30:36

Christianity. It's like well it's orthodox Christianity. Right. People that believe God's Word.

30:41

Let's just be clear about the terms here even the how we're defining ourselves. Yeah so let's deal with what he says guys.

30:48

Which is what I want to do in this series of videos that I'm posting now. So over the course of the next few videos

30:54

I want to give you some more well thought out answers to some of the objections that James and Jeff raised during the debate that I either didn't articulate clearly or didn't feel like I had enough time or space to articulate.

31:07

So without said let's dive in. And then how do you know anything at all? I mean you're making claims about what is moral and true and good and yet you admit that your system because you reject

31:16

God's Word and his revelation is a starting point is that there you can't really know that there's this objective morality.

31:23

So how do you complain about anything Brandon? So I want everyone to get a hold of why that question is being asked.

31:30

This is vital. It is everything. It goes across the conversations we have with our

31:36

Roman Catholic friends with our Mormon friends with our Jehovah's Witness friends with our woke friends with our atheist friends.

31:44

It's not just a challenge to Brandon. This is an epistemological question. This is everything and it's not just happening at Apologia Radio.

31:52

It's not just a Christian fundamentalist thing. It's a question of how do you know? Right? Now there's different systems of epistemology in history.

32:01

Lots of them. People sometimes pick one. Sometimes they say it's not possible to know anything at all.

32:06

You could take Dr. Will Provine and some of the statements he made as an atheist evolutionary biologist and atheist.

32:12

He's dead now. In his system your thoughts and what you're doing are just a mechanism, a result of your biological functions like the biochemistry going on in your brain.

32:27

So you're not really making choices. You're just a slave to your brain chemistry.

32:34

And so you have different epistemological systems and again Christian brother or sister please don't let it throw you.

32:40

I don't know what epistemology is. How do you know? Right? Moms and dads do it every day. Tell their kids don't do this do this instead.

32:48

Okay. How do you know? How do you know that's the truth? It's a very basic question to Brandon. Brandon how do you know?

32:54

You're making ethical claims. You're making claims about the Bible. How do you know? And the challenge that I presented to Brandon was very simply this.

33:02

You're making these ethical claims. Brandon how do you know that I should follow that?

33:08

That that's actually true? How do you know? What's your theory of knowledge? And what he said was there may be an objective standard out there.

33:17

Objective being it's true anyways. That's the best way I can describe that. It's true anyways.

33:22

It's something that's outside of myself. It's a standard that exists out there. It's true outside of my being born.

33:29

It's true currently. It'll be true when I'm gone. It's an objective standard outside of myself that is not dependent upon the culture, the time period, what society thinks.

33:40

It's just simply objective and it's true. We would say God's Word is truth.

33:46

Jesus said that. John 17, 17. Thy Word is truth. There's an objective standard that exists outside of ourselves.

33:54

God has spoken and that's how I know. I know because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

34:00

Proverbs 1, 7. I know things because I fear God. I have knowledge.

34:07

God hasn't hidden these things. He's spoken them. Wisdom is displayed in the Book of Wisdom Proverbs as calling out at the city gates.

34:15

Crying out. God's not hidden himself. He is transcendent yet he is imminent.

34:21

Covenantally active and God has spoken. He speaks through creation. He speaks specially in history through his prophets and apostles and most supremely in his son.

34:30

So how do I have certainty about anything? I know this to be true. I'm certain of it. Brandon says there may be an objective standard out there but he says what?

34:39

He says we can't know it. Right? Well he says I don't know it.

34:46

So here think about the two positions you're standing on. There may be an objective standard out there.

34:52

I don't know it. I'm not claiming that I know it absolutely. Okay then why are you making moral claims?

35:00

Why are you calling things in the Bible immoral? Why are you calling anything an atrocity because you just said you don't claim to know it.

35:11

You can't know it. And so if that's the case if that's your epistemology then stop making knowledge claims as though they're binding.

35:20

Do you get it? Right? You reject God's word as the objective revelation in history and you're saying well

35:25

I don't know. Well great why are you making all those knowledge claims? And every time he opens his mouth and says this is immoral, that's immoral you ought to do this you should not do that you ought not do that every time he's literally destroying his own position because he's already told us that it may be out there

35:43

I don't know what it is with certainty and yet here are the knowledge claims. That's a basic epistemological question right?

35:51

Is it rationalism? Do you know things because it's rational because it's reasonable because it's consistent that it's logically coherent or do you know things because of empiricism?

36:01

Right? You test it you have to see it experience it that's how I know because I've experienced it

36:06

I've tested it it's like a very scientific way of observation I've observed it or do you know things based upon revelation

36:13

God has spoken and that's how I know make no mistake about it it can't be avoided the Christian worldview the claim of the

36:20

Christian worldview is you can know you can know with certainty because God has spoken that's how you know because he's given his word and I doubt we'll get to it today because there's so much in this video but he even says at the end

36:35

I don't remember exactly what he said I don't want to misrepresent it but he basically said at the end of this video something along the lines of him trying to find his own way to objective truth or something you remember that part and I was like that's the very definition of subjective wait he comes up with that that's right in the tale of this oh is it ok perfect I would say that I would be in alignment with a majority of other people who have we have a reason we have science we have revelation

37:06

I do believe in revelation I just don't believe that all of the Bible is God's revelation there are ok so let's do it let's test his epistemology he says reason science and he says revelation ok now that's what he says his claim his claim of epistemology how he knows is reason science and revelation ok now my question is is if you reject the ultimacy of God's revelation that God has spoken and that's how

37:36

I know he's the reference point if you reject it my question is this Brandon what are you doing appealing to reason you just can't you can't just grab you can't collect that capital from the

37:48

Christian worldview in terms of reason being a Christian thing being justified and given warrants from a

37:55

Christian foundation you can't just grab that capital and use it to fight the Bible and use it to fight the biblical worldview reason are you talking about say in one domain of reason the laws of logic are you talking about the law of non -contradiction the question to be asked is this where's this law of non -contradiction anyone out there ever felt one smelled one tasted one weighed one have you ever done that like weighed a law of logic can you do that and the answer is no nobody has that experience of actually handling a law of logic because the laws of logic are abstract universal invariant truths that exist outside of my own mind

38:41

Brandon and your own mind they reflect the very thinking of God these are the things that are built into creation and by the way

38:50

I can only truly justify and appeal to universal abstract invariant laws from the basis of the

38:59

Christian worldview it's not just Brandon that can't do it with his rejection of God's word it's atheists they can't do it either that's not to say that atheists and guys like Brandon don't try to be consistent and be logical they do because they're made in the image of God but their worldviews do not comport with what they're doing and so how are you going to appeal to reason to justify morality right like for example let's say the thief breaks into your house in the middle of the night thief breaks into your house tired?

39:33

it's been a long thief breaks into your house it's been a long few weeks middle of the night and then you say to the thief you say hey thief this is not consistent you see

39:43

I've paid for this this thing you're stealing here it doesn't belong to you that's not consistent and then the thief comes in and goes now

39:52

I know it's the case that that doesn't belong to me but in fact it's not the case that it doesn't belong to me and then you say to the thief that's a contradiction sir that's unreasonable do you see the stupidity of that argument it's a thief breaking in you can't rationalize your way or like let's say even fairly recently in our experience in this nation all the riots that broke out a while back right those those people going in stealing stuff that didn't belong to them you can have a debate with them on reason can you sit down for a second and we talk about how rational this is right like let me explain to you my perspective and then the thief goes well let me tell you my perspective like let me tell you how my reasoning works in this and it's like wait a second how do the laws of logic appeal here do

40:35

I think that there is a rational component to ethics absolutely but it can only be grounded in something that's ultimate and so yes you need to be reasonable in your appeal to ethics however the question is how do you justify reason with your rejection of scripture as ultimate

40:52

Brandon science goodness science science is dependent upon the uniformity of nature it's dependent upon induction it's dependent upon the future being like the past now again this isn't a

41:07

Christian thing just throwing it out as some sort of trick read Bertrand Russell on this the problem of induction he struggled with it he challenged atheists you gotta give me a reason for this because we need this to do everything we do including experimentation and rationality and everything and I well you can't just say well it's always been that way in the past so I guess in the future it will be no that's blind stupid faith so Bertrand Russell did

41:33

David Hume did deal with the problem of induction and Brandon you can say well I appeal to reason and science for morality really?

41:40

Science? Science tells you if something's immoral? Really? How do you even appeal to science if you reject scripture as God as the one promising to sustain all of creation and bring it to its intended destination

41:53

Hebrews chapter 1 you reject God's revelation as ultimate how do you how do you show any ability to depend upon the uniformity in nature to do science also science for morality what's the data

42:07

I wonder what would be the data I wonder the science and data observational evidence forgive me around anal sex in men and other men what would that data be

42:23

I wonder if we get time today we'll go over some of the medical data and science surrounding using a biologically designed exit only portion of the body something that's used for human waste what would be the science and the biology in that realm

42:47

I wonder what would it speak to is it moral to cause harm Brandon says later on this video he says you know my ethical system is like if it's going to harm me or somebody else

42:57

I don't do it it's sin really can we look into that can we look into the science surrounding that kind of sex what does the science say

43:07

I wonder if you want guys if you want to go down a very dark deep hole into the science surrounding that choice

43:14

I wonder what that biological study will that survey will bring to your attention in terms of is biology screaming to us that this is good for us does it cause harm yeah it causes harm but the next is he says this and this is where I want to land he says

43:31

I also believe in revelation so Brandon's a mixed bag he doesn't know where he wants to stand he says I believe in reason

43:36

I believe in science and I believe in revelation but then he makes there's a caveat some revelation

43:42

I believe I like some of the stuff in that book I like some of it but the determining factor here in all of this and this is why

43:49

I kept bringing it up to him through the entire discussion is Brandon you're the reference point just be straight with it

43:55

I'm the reference point I like reason I like science I like some revelation but other stuff

44:00

I think is kind of icky I throw that out oh well okay then how do you know what to throw out Brandon exactly

44:07

Brandon knows what to throw out because Brandon likes to choose things that are in accordance with his lusts and so he looks at the

44:14

Bible he says I like that I don't like that I like that I don't like that and that's just not how

44:19

God's word works Brandon that's not how his world works and so Brandon's a very confused mixed bag when it comes to epistemology and again this isn't just a question being brought up on Apologia Radio this is a dominant field of philosophy and brothers and sisters you're engaging in it and I'm engaging in it every single day how do

44:40

I know how am I certain what ought I to do what ought I not to do and so onward multiple ways that we come to develop a sense of morality

44:51

I resonate with the language from the Hebrew Bible which talks about the law of God written on our hearts I believe that in some sense all human beings have been programmed with some level of moral code and yes there is obviously diversity and we disagree as humans on various what things are moral and what might not be moral but there are a lot of areas where broad swaths of humanity throughout all time do agree on common moral principles and I'm also of the mindset so which is it

45:20

I wonder is it that you have the majority is that Brandon's ethical system broad swaths of humanity have believed

45:29

A, B, or C well I wonder if that's actually true because I'm willing to bet everything that I have and I'm not a gambling man but I think

45:41

I do okay with this one I'm willing to bet everything I have on the fact that today around the world people are being murdered in some pretty grotesque ways it's happening constantly it's happening daily and further when you say broad swaths of humanity have agreed upon this that's why

46:01

I brought up Stalin how about Stalin he agree with you how about Hitler as a matter of fact if you're going to do a majority well let's draw a circle around Germany and let's ask the question how'd that majority rules work in Germany how did it work because the majority went along with it they certainly did otherwise it wouldn't have happened the way that it did and it ended in a lot of bloodshed and a lot of death it certainly did and so you have to ask that question broad swaths really like Pol Pot like Pol Pot like Stalin like Hitler like Mao that's just in the last 100 years or so and so really like we actually all agree on this people are killing every single day and it's actually not the case he's going to bring up the issue of an abortion the issue of abortion somewhere in this video it's not the case that everybody just agrees that you ought not murder that thou shalt not kill a lot of people believe in their heart of hearts deep down they believe strongly that actually we have the right to engage in unjustified taking of human life

47:04

I just believe I can do it with my child in the womb and so it's actually you have to ask the question in terms of how do you know that doesn't provide any certainty that a lot of humanity has believed in this well you know in this nation not very long ago a lot of the people here believe that you can kidnap and enslave black people a lot of people believe that that they did so contrary to God's word and thankfully there was corrections brought because of God's word but a lot of people believed in it a whole lot did and so what's the rule here how many people have to be in charge and agree with something to make it moral and you know it is true that he brings it up it seems that everybody in the world has this built in sort of moral compass and knowledge that there's a need for justice a need for morality and that the answer to that is simple

47:52

Brandon it's because we're all made in the image of God we're all made in the image of the same

47:57

God and so we get that sense of a need for justice and a need for ethics but if you're in rebellion as a human you will not appeal to the

48:07

God who actually is a standard for all those things Humanity led by the spirit of God is constantly progressing in our morality which

48:16

I know you all would probably very much disagree with but I believe every generation we're getting towards more of what

48:23

Jesus talked about as the kingdom of God where we have a society of justice equity, peace and so I see every generation but you don't know you're admitting though Brandon I'm sorry

48:33

I want to make sure that we're at least dealing at one point at a time here but you've admitted that the word of God that talks about the kingdom of God and God's justice you admitted that you don't believe that it's inerrant or infallible or that it's the ultimate standard at all so my question is why appeal to it at all why talk about things like the kingdom of God and the law of God written in our hearts when you've already acknowledged at the front that you don't respect it believe it stand on it respect it as an ultimate authority you think that it's either corrupted at points or just the words of mere men and not an ultimate standard so I would just make a point here when you say you know scripture says the law is written in our heart well the specific word there is the

49:13

Torah is written within us in Jeremiah 31 God's law the law would be written within us when

49:20

Jeremiah wrote that they had a law in mind and an instruction in mind and that was the law of God from the

49:26

Old Testament and so that's what's written within us and so there's an objective standard of what that law was so yeah it's now internalized it's no longer on stone tablets outside of us exerting pressure from the outside it's internalized with God's people in the new covenant that's specifically a new covenant promise by the way but that law is objective we know what it is

49:46

God spoke it so here's a couple things I think this is where we fundamentally disagree is I think your version of Christianity tries to oversimplify things that aren't actually simple at all now was that an answer to anything

50:00

I just said here's the point Brandon makes two claims there he says one

50:06

I believe in the law written in our heart well where's he getting that from he gets that from Jeremiah 31 in verse 31 behold the days are coming declares the

50:15

Lord when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah not like the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when

50:22

I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt my covenant that they broke though I was their husband declares the

50:28

Lord for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days declares the Lord I will put my law within them that's the

50:35

Torah by the way and I will write it on their hearts and I will be their God and they shall be my people and no longer shall each one teach his neighbor each his neighbor saying know the

50:44

Lord for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest declares the Lord and I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more this is a specific new covenant promise this is to believers this is to God's people he'll take the law the

50:58

Torah and put it within them well which law was Jeremiah talking about there he's talking about the very law that Brandon Robertson condemns but yet he appeals to it and says

51:13

I believe in the law of your heart that's a new covenant Brandon a new covenant promise Brandon that's

51:18

God's law written within the people of God but that law is very specific that instruction is very specific and it's actually given to us objectively in the revelation of God given to us in scripture and so you can't just say the law is going to be put within us and say but I reject the

51:35

Torah as immoral it's not right at many points which points the ones I don't like I don't like those anymore but that's the law that was promised so here's the deal

51:44

I'm going to just encourage Brandon with this Brandon just give it up like don't do the mishmash thing like just fall into the atheism and be consistent with it because this position you're in now where you stand before people and you open this book that you publicly condemn you open it on a

52:04

Sunday and pretend to believe it and preach as though it's some sort of divine truth when on Tuesday you were condemning it do the people in your congregation not recognize that that he's standing up there behind a pulpit with that book open and he just on Tuesday condemned the book as immoral and told me

52:25

I can't trust it do you think people notice that Brandon because I do it's not like it's hidden it's pretty obvious but he makes that claim the law of God's written within our hearts but did you guys notice that he said we're getting closer and closer to that justice but wait he already told us that he doesn't know the objective standard so which what justice are we getting to Brandon you act like it's ahead of us and we're gonna finally get to that standard of justice that I don't know and we really can't know well what's justice then like what's the standard of justice because you know cultures in history have had some different standards of justice there's cultures today that say look the penalty for the thief is that you cut his hand off when he stole the loaf of bread is that justice and Brandon if you deny that that's justice

53:15

I would ask you by what standard do you say that's not justice because God's word tells you what to do with thieves it tells you how to pay back and make the victim whole and bring the thief back to society whole again

53:25

God's word tells you exactly what to do with thieves but Brandon how do I handle that what's justice how is that ahead of us how do

53:32

I define it how do I know Brandon says I don't know but we're getting to it

53:39

I don't know but we're getting to it it's somewhere there well what is it can it be known no but it's out there well what does it look like it's kingdom of God stuff it's law of God it's kingdom of God and your heart stuff but kingdom of God means the rule of God right the kingdom of God all the beautiful the beautiful terminology that it is it just means the rule of God and the question is how does

53:59

God rule by what standard exactly right by what standard the scriptures tell you how that Messiah is going to rule

54:06

Isaiah 42 go look it up he's going to rule in such a way that he brings his law to the coastlands that's what he's going to do he's going to establish justice on the earth his the coastlands waiting for his

54:19

Torah right the law of God going forth from the people of God the Torah Isaiah 2 going forth from the people of God one more thing guys

54:29

Ezekiel 36 what's the promise in our new covenant he says he'll put his spirit within people and he will cause them to observe his statutes which statutes are those the same statutes that are the known statutes it's the known law it's the known

54:44

Torah it's the known statutes of God I was just going to say by what standard you said

54:50

I mean you everything you just said by what standard but I do want to say like I mean

54:56

I'll make I'd make an argument that's just straight blasphemy saying that well you know you said something like well

55:01

God puts the spirit in his spirit as and you know and morality is evolving you know something along those lines and I was just like oof like bro because it's not objective

55:11

I don't want to be standing next to you when there's a lightning storm like we showed earlier yeah yeah because it's evolving and the only reason you could say it's evolving is because it's chaos yeah and there's no ultimate standard to get to from Brandon really you can't know it according to him and so because you can't know it and he doesn't know it it's evolving because we're just trying to work this thing out we're just trying to see what works right

55:36

I mean he really Brandon really has no argument in Georgia in the 19th century no he really has no argument no right oh this is making my black brothers and sisters uncomfortable answer so what that's a beast that's not a person that's what they would say some people would say that right well you know we shouldn't treat other human beings like this question says who

55:57

Brandon you you well through my reason and my science yeah I reject all that don't care

56:03

I think you're being unreasonable I think you're irrational and I reject the science that you're appealing to really do you see the point it has no moral oomph to it nothing because it's just Brandon Brandon has no argument against 19th century

56:15

Georgia he doesn't the Christians did they had an objective standard they appealed to this is the word of the

56:21

Lord this is the word of God that man and that woman are in the image of God we are all of one blood and God calls this partiality and an abomination and in Deuteron by the way

56:31

I want to bring it up here last week he was asking but we're going so fast it was difficult to get to it he asked the question where scripture teaches that slavery is evil like the the slave trade the

56:44

Christian abolitionists were fighting against the slave trade with the word of God explicitly and one of the things they appealed to was

56:51

Deuteronomy chapter 24 in verse 7 if a man is found stealing one of his brothers of the people of Israel and if he treats him as a slave or sells him then that thief shall die so you shall purge the evil from your midst there's one example man stealing and enslaving is against the law of God and it's actually something that's so serious you deserve capital punishment contrary to Brandon's claims and he didn't even know where the verse was because let's be honest

57:16

Brandon has very little respect for the word of God in the first place let's just be honest the man is not looking and he's not aware of historical events that led up to abolition in this nation and what they taught and what they believed and all the rest and so it is the case that the

57:32

Christian worldview does away with slavery everywhere it goes and people will say yeah but they were

57:38

Christians in the 19th century in the 18th century that owned slaves yeah and they were in sin against God and that's exactly what the

57:45

Christian abolitionists indicted them about is that you are doing something that is forbidden in the word of God completely forbidden well

57:54

I I was so glad that you you did this when you guys talked to him because the show before I think we had discussed um bestiality yeah can you continue this conversation without me for a second yes

58:07

Jeff's gotta go use the restroom uh so um which camera am I looking into um

58:13

I think I remember one of us brought up that if Brandon wanted to be consistent about his position on sexuality and what is okay and not okay um then he should be fully on board with bestiality and so I was very thankful that Jeff and James brought that up in this conversation with him and Jeff really pressed him on I was like hey dude if you're gonna be consistent then you should have no problem with bestiality and he was like oh no not at all like he rejected that like that was icky and again it just goes back to by what standard you know what is okay what is not okay what is icky what is not icky and it really is up to Brandon he decides what's icky and not icky and what's morally okay in the eyes of God and really um you know

59:00

God's law doesn't really matter unless he likes it it reminds me we're getting ready to to do Easter pageant here with the our

59:07

LDS neighbors um and um it just reminds me a lot of Mormonism they like the

59:14

Bible as long as it agrees with uh their Mormon theology they will say you know so far as it's translated correctly but if there's anything in scripture that uh disagrees with Mormon theology they immediately reject it and it's the same with Brandon so he likes the

59:31

Bible when it works for him and uh yep so here comes

59:36

Jeff again I was just talking about the I was thankful that you pressed him on the bestiality thing because he was very inconsistent on that and which didn't surprise me and that's the point

59:45

I think that that's a key issue to to talk about is that Brandon likes things and I pointed this out to him he likes things like love your neighbors you love yourself that's in the teaching of Jesus he likes that well the key issue there is that's from Leviticus 19 so he he picks and chooses what he doesn't want to follow from 18 or other aspects of the

01:00:04

Levitical law but he really loves Leviticus 19 okay so we get to have that one who says well

01:00:11

Brandon says Brandon says I agree with that I like that I think that that's moral and we're going to get to it in a second here but I I want to go ahead and just state it ahead of time so you'll you'll know when you hear him say it he'll say well these these guys do the same thing like they he'll say it like you know they're picking and choosing things that they don't follow like you know the mixed fabrics and you know the dietary restrictions and all the rest it's like no

01:00:35

Brandon you should have known this in Bible College Christians don't not practice those things any longer just willy -nilly like well that was

01:00:46

Old Testament I don't care about that anymore that's not how it works we have explicit word from God revelation from God from inspired apostles as to the reasoning behind no longer under the new covenant practicing those things in the very same way and here's what

01:01:01

I mean by that if you look in your New Testament at the book of Ephesians in Ephesians chapter 2 you have explicit word from the apostle

01:01:10

Paul as to why you no longer practice the holiness code the holiness code were things that the

01:01:15

Jews were given specific to Israel in the old covenant where they were supposed to practice things to keep them separate from the nations so for example you had dietary restrictions you had holiness code you had things that were the commandments contained in ordinances so they had to do things like even in their clothing not mixed fibers you're supposed to teach them about syncretism don't adopt the practices of the pagan nations and those foreigners and bring them into the practice and life of Israel don't do those things and they were to do those things to teach them very symbolically about not blending don't take their practices bring them with your own so they even had it into their clothes these were training wheels in the holiness code to teach

01:01:58

Israel to be holy so even in what they ate they were to be holy separate and distinct the apostle

01:02:04

Paul tells us now under the new covenant administration those holiness code commandments the commandments contained in those ordinances are no longer applicable under the new covenant because now we have the spirit of God within us now we have been brought into this one body now we no longer need the holiness code because we have the law written within us and the holiness code is specifically said to have gone away here it is in Ephesians chapter 2 therefore verse 11 remember that at one time you

01:02:32

Gentiles in the flesh called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision which is made into flesh by hands remember that you were at that time separated from Christ alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world but now in Christ Jesus you who once were so far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ for he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh here it is the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two so making peace so why do

01:03:15

Christians no longer practice the holiness code in those commandments in the same way in the new covenants because those are done now they serve their purpose now we're one body in Christ no longer

01:03:25

Israel being separate from the foreign and gentile nations being holy and separate now we are one body

01:03:31

Jews and gentiles brought together and made near because of Christ and so we don't need the training wheels anymore and that's why we don't do them in the same way however really important every one of those commandments had meaning and have meaning today they endure we are still not to practice what the unbelievers practice we are still not to adopt syncretism and do what they did or do what they do the holiness commandments are no longer applicable in the same way but they still have meaning and relevance in the new covenant and the apostle

01:04:02

Paul even does this with what we would consider very strange practices with like removing 11 from your house are we today in the new covenant still to rehearse the training wheels of Israel to remove the 11 from our house symbolizing removing the sin and everything from our lives we don't do that anymore why?

01:04:20

because it's the new covenant we have a finished work we have a perfect redeemer and a perfect mediator a high priest with a once for all sacrifice he's the temple we've been brought near we're indwelt by his spirit we don't do the training wheels anymore but according to Paul we still actually do what that commandment was by removing

01:04:39

Paul says the malice the 11 of malice from within us so it's not like oh that's irrelevant and dumb law that stuff was just for them it's irrelevant we just throw it away now no it all had meaning and still has abiding relevance but we don't practice it in the same way but the principle is still present and abiding to this very day and Paul appeals to that with even that very strange practice of removing 11 from your house he says you remove now the 11 of the malice from you so it has carry over doesn't it it's not just a throw away it's not just that we're throwing these laws out willy nilly is those laws had a specific purpose for the old covenant administration however all those laws about justice all those laws about morality like sleeping with your aunt sleeping with a relative sleeping with an animal or sleeping with a man all those are moral principles and they are the very things

01:05:34

Leviticus 18 that God says he is punishing the foreign nations for practicing because those moral laws are for everybody all image bearers of God but we're trying to remove the 11 from Christ Church right now that's what we're doing that's exactly right and I don't think it's as simple as you either believe all of the

01:05:55

Bible or you believe none of the Bible I hear that a lot from more conservative Christians that's virtually not how anybody has engaged with Scripture throughout the history of Judaism and Christianity I'm sorry

01:06:06

I think it's better and more accurate to say you either believe the Bible is God's word or you don't you either believe this is the divine revelation of God or you don't that's a more accurate way to put it and if you put it in that way the way that it ought to be put then you begin to see where the lines are drawn

01:06:27

Brandon doesn't believe that that these are the words of God these are all the words of God they are all relevant

01:06:34

I must yield to the voice of God he doesn't believe that he believes I'll take this

01:06:39

I don't like that these are just the words of men these are the words of a racist by the way Jesus he's also a racist thank

01:06:46

God he repented what audacity what unbelievable audacity but that's what he says and because Brandon's the reference point so epistemologically speaking and how do you know well in Brandon's church they can all know because Brandon says because Brandon says that's really the source that's how he feels that's what he believes and even then

01:07:12

Brandon's fine with people just rejecting it because nothing he says is authoritative because he doesn't know the objective standard and he said at the end of our discussion he said

01:07:21

I hope they reject what I say I hope they say they don't agree because he doesn't believe that anything's authoritative or ultimate anyways even

01:07:30

Brandon's own words he thinks don't have any binding authority at all because it's a mishmash for Brandon it's not how we engage as human beings as reasonable thoughtful people it's not all in or all out

01:07:44

I believe that the Bible is a human product inspired by God and yes there are parts of the

01:07:50

Bible where I believe God's revelation comes true or comes through clearly and there are parts of the

01:07:55

Bible that are clearly immoral and wrong and should be rejected according to who you don't believe there's an objective standard though you said that you can't know it so why are you chastising scripture about morality again one of the first points that I bring up in the debate is that I believe the

01:08:08

Bible is not an objective moral standard for me or for anyone else no one takes all of the

01:08:15

Bible and all of the morality within the Bible as applicable and true and thank God for that the

01:08:21

Bible I believe is a human product that on many points has gravely deficient moral standards according to Brandon Robertson that's the point according to Brandon Robertson because he doesn't believe that he knows that objective standard so when he calls things gravely immoral he calls them that there's no power behind there's no authority behind it he's making the claim he's just asserting it but he's already told you

01:08:49

I don't know anyways I don't know what it is but it's not that who says by what standard

01:08:56

Brandon Robertson that's how he feels of course there are portions of the

01:09:02

Bible that introduce really innovative and progressive moral standards for the era that the word was written in according to Brandon Robertson there are some things in the

01:09:11

Bible that coincide with Brandon's desires and he likes those things and then there are other things that Brandon Robertson doesn't like he thinks they're icky he thinks they're immoral and so he tosses those out and you say oh on what basis well because I I think so because I feel like that or because the consensus of these scholars over here say that and it's all it's just based upon at that point convention right you get enough people that agree with you it becomes moral try that during slavery try that with Hitler's holocaust try it does it work it doesn't work just by consensus and that's what he has it's just chaos and that are good for our world today but for someone to claim as Jeff does that the

01:09:55

Bible is their objective moral standard on all matters of morality is objectively false unless Jeff is also willing to advocate for the straightforward bronze age morality of scripture like slavery like subjugating women slavery so let's do it so I just gave you

01:10:13

I just gave you a scripture from the very words of the Torah the law of God where God says that the punishment for kidnapping and enslaving somebody is actually capital punishment the death penalty what

01:10:26

Brandon wants to do is he wants to play on the emotions of people in the west who have had the kind of slavery behind us like we had in the south and the north in this nation he wants to play off that and just say use the word slavery what he doesn't want to go into is historically the slavery or being a bond servant that existed as a means of protecting the poor from death they didn't have bankruptcy laws back then and so there were times where let's say that Luke was a fantastic business owner he owns like six different businesses in the marketplace the economy tanks things go bad and then all of his businesses fail and now he is severely in debt after once being this amazing businessman okay this happened so he's an amazing businessman his businesses all fail he is now indebted well in those days they don't have chapter 7 they don't have the bankruptcy laws we have in this nation chapter 11 and reorganization or whatever what had happened then is you could die and your family could die and what you could do is a person comes and says hey look

01:11:32

Luke I know that you are a fantastic business owner I'm doing well this is what I will do rather than you going into debt prison rather than you losing your life or your family going into poverty

01:11:42

I will pay your debt for you I will pay off all your debt you come and you work for me to pay off your debt

01:11:49

I will be the master you'll be the slave I'm going to pay off all of your debt and you come work for me use your business skills to expand my businesses

01:11:58

I'm going to pay your debt off for you that's the kind of debt slavery that we're talking about at some levels what the

01:12:04

Bible does not condone and it condemns it explicitly is the kind of slavery where you kidnap and enslave and own another human being that's capital punishment so yeah we are called bond servants slaves of Jesus Christ and I wear that title with pride

01:12:22

I am a slave to a good master who paid my debt to purchase me he took away my debt the weight of my debt before a holy

01:12:33

God he purchased me I am his slave and I'm honored to be his slave he is a good master that erased my debt he owns me praise and glory to God that's the kind of slavery and by the way it's amazing he actually said last week he actually said last week and I didn't get a chance to address it because we're going so fast he actually said that the

01:12:57

Bible doesn't oppose slavery and when I thought about that it was like this is a whole thing to go into but we probably won't get a chance to do it

01:13:05

I'll just use the verse that explicitly condemns it and says capital punishment but what I thought about is like do you not read your

01:13:10

Bible do you think people don't see that that the story of Israel begins with what they are in bondage and enslaved to where Egypt and what does

01:13:19

God do as their God coming into a relationship with them he frees them from their bondage and slavery and brings them into the freedom and liberty of the promised land the

01:13:30

Bible story starts with freedom from slavery with the people of God and the whole theme of the

01:13:36

New Testament is that Christ has given us redemption he's purchased us he has freed us from our slavery what does he say in John chapter 8 whoever commits sin is a slave of sin but if the

01:13:50

Son sets you free you shall be free indeed the whole theme of the

01:13:56

Bible is freedom from slavery so this whole idea that the Bible condones slavery it teaches slavery it's absurd on the face of it is there slavery in scripture yes but it's not the slavery

01:14:07

Brandon's talking about it's the kind of slavery that is a mechanism and it's existed in the entire ancient world of preserving the poor from death that's what we're talking about and by the way do we need to talk about Jubilee do we need to talk about all the instances in God's law that talk about freedom from debt and slavery and all the rest

01:14:27

Brandon Robertson here's the problem he doesn't know his Bible he doesn't respect it he doesn't honor it and so he doesn't know it well enough to actually fight in this arena and so what does he do he mischaracterizes it he maligns it he lies about it and by the way

01:14:43

I don't have the reference in front of me but it's one of the references that I just love that Zach Lautenschlager brings up a lot in his talks is the reference from Corinthians I'll pull it up in a second here that if you have the opportunity to get your freedom do it that's a command from the

01:15:00

Apostle so much for the Bible just loving slavery it's all about freedom he must have the progressive standard version yeah the progressive standard version the

01:15:10

PSV PSV PSV PSV opposing interracial marriage oh he said subjugating women

01:15:19

I deny that I absolutely deny that I deny that scripture teaches a subjugation of women saying that men have a different role or function than women is not subjugating women in scripture it actually says there is neither male nor female slave nor free we're all one in Christ Jesus where's this subjugating of women come from?

01:15:46

PSV PSV so is it just that Brandon believes that there are no gender distinctives that there are no roles for males and females that's probably what it is and let's be honest about why because he rejects the

01:16:02

Bible he rejects the biblical authors when they are speaking from God that say this is the role of the man this is the role of the woman he says that's subjugation scripture says no they're equal they just were made for different things these have gifts in this way these have gifts in this way that's how harmony is brought whereas Brandon Robertson's world view only has disharmony and committing genocide and advocating for polygamy ok let's do it committing genocide committing genocide do you mean when in scripture

01:16:36

God commands the destruction of wicked and evil nations who take their three -year -old children and bring them up to a statue that has been set on fire with the belly open as an oven and they take their three -year -old child kicking and screaming and they place this three -year -old child into the belly of this beast to be incinerated in front of everybody so that they can have better crops that year or that their finances will be better I'm talking about Moloch worship do you mean when these foreign pagan nations are engaged in such depravity and wickedness where they actually teach that you can have sex with animals and that it's a good thing to have sex with animals that they actually portray in these ancient cultures whether it's

01:17:24

Canaan or wherever else Canaanites or whatever where they portray we even have this today brought down to us they portray their gods having sexual relationships with animals and they put into their law codes that it's okay to have sex with these animals but not these animals don't have sex with pigs that's evil you'll get put to death for that but you can have sex with this animal they actually taught that they believed that they did those things they were the very things

01:17:49

Leviticus 18 is talking about the foreign nations were engaged in these are pagan wicked cultures who were destroying themselves and destroying even

01:17:58

Israel and so yeah God as the righteous judge has the right over his creation to give life and to take it away and he sends his people against these godless wicked nations who are throwing their children into the belly of the beast to destroy them and he says yes destroy them you know what let's do it this way

01:18:16

Brandon I'll give you one better we see the manipulation with the genocide claim but I'll give you one better God does worse than that it's worse than you're saying it's worse than your claim and the way you're trying to portray it like oh these poor philistines and these canaanites and all the rest these poor people who destroy their own children and murder them and all the rest to sacrifice for more finances or better crops you know it's just terrible that God commands genocide he doesn't do it on the basis of their color but their character and their actions and it's worse

01:18:47

I'll give you a better one there was a time where God destroyed the entire world yeah it's true men women and children destroyed them all because he's the judge of all the earth and he'll always do right and it was time for judgment and when wrath the wrath of God comes it is always right it is always good and there was a time where it wasn't just one people it was the entire world the

01:19:08

Bible doesn't make any apologies for that it tells you on the front page look God destroyed the whole world because they were wicked the entire world that's what he did it's worse than you're saying but the question is does

01:19:18

God as the just and holy God have a right to actually bring judgment on the earth that's the part that Brandon really doesn't like is that he doesn't like God's judgments that's the problem but finally polygamy wow amazing for a man to say like the

01:19:36

Bible teaches like an actual condoning of polygamy because Deuteronomy 17 17 another law of God back in the

01:19:46

Torah again in Deuteronomy chapter 17 in verse 17

01:19:52

God explicitly says when speaking of the king the principle will apply to everybody and he shall not acquire many wives for himself lest his heart turn away nor shall he acquire for himself excess silver and gold that principle don't multiply wives

01:20:09

God spoke against it explicitly better than that is God started the beginning of the book with male female man and woman

01:20:18

Adam and Eve and then the Lord Jesus the incarnate God God as man when he's asked a question about marriage about the

01:20:26

Hillelite and Shemite dispute over the any cause divorce Jesus says have you not read that from the beginning a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife and they shall become one flesh

01:20:41

Jesus said that what's he say watch ready from the beginning so for Jesus from the very start of creation there's no way around that by the way

01:20:52

I think that's a major response to theistic evolution from the beginning he made them male and female male and female from the start and it was male and female it was

01:21:01

Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve right and it was Adam and Eve and not Adam and Eve and Jane and Joy and all the rest it was

01:21:11

Adam and Eve and so God set that at the very very beginning as the norm the standard and he condemns polygamy in Deuteronomy 17 17 contrary to Brandon Robertson's claims and many other of the immoral practices that the

01:21:26

Bible speaks of it's clearly not his objective moral standard I argued that objective morality might exist but that we cannot know it objectively as subjective beings that makes no sense yeah philosophically speaking sorry

01:21:45

Brandon you just collapsed there because the question about whether it's an objective standard it's irrelevant that we're subjective beings because the standard exists outside of us and that standard is the objective standard my subjective desires my will whatever the case may be really doesn't change the nature of the objective standard and if God is that standard and he's revealed himself to us then we actually in fact do have an objective standard by which to measure our will our desires all the rest even as subjective beings you use that terminology we still have an objective standard outside of us that we can look to because God has spoken

01:22:26

Brandon apparently doesn't believe that the all powerful creator of the universe can speak with clarity and be understood by his creatures that's the muddying of the waters there we creatures couldn't possibly understand an all powerful all knowing

01:22:38

God that's not the testimony of scripture though this doesn't mean that we cannot have any moral standards or make any moral argument no it means that you cannot claim them with certainty you can't you don't have justified true belief you cannot have any true warrant for them no justification for them

01:22:55

Brandon yes I know that Brandon and others atheists, agnostics whatever they make ethical claims they make claims about ethics and morality that's because they're in the image of God no one's saying you can't make the claims

01:23:07

Brandon we're saying you can't justify them you can't justify them you don't know them you're not certain you've admitted you're not certain about them you've admitted you don't know yes

01:23:16

Brandon you make the claims the philosophical challenge being brought to you is you cannot provide the preconditions necessary to make an intelligible appeal to those ethical standards because you have no justification you're not even trying to make a justification for them you don't do it you say

01:23:33

I don't know but I certainly want you to believe me when I make the claims it simply means that there is no way to lay hold of some hypothetical objective moral standard let's try it ready is that objectively true?

01:23:51

here's me laying hold this is me laying hold right? there's me laying hold of this objective standard

01:23:59

God's revelation in history forever oh Lord your word is firmly fixed in the heavens right?

01:24:04

heaven and earth will pass away my words will by no means pass away here's that objective moral standard here's the revelation of God right?

01:24:10

and if you mean laying hold of it intellectually Brandon you'd have to read it and submit to it you'd have to look at it and submit to it so yeah there is a way

01:24:19

Brandon there is an objective standard everything you're saying is just a meaningless claim it's just you're just asserting things you're just announcing it you're not defending yourself you're simply announcing it you're just asserting it and that's just meaningless you're not justifying it you've already taken your own legs off because you said

01:24:36

I don't know but I'll certainly tell you what I think I know that's out there in the universe in the same way that I'd argue there doesn't seem to be an objective way for subjective beings to objectively know

01:24:49

God which is why we're required to have faith I'd argue that we must also use the best evidences and resources that we have to establish a moral code so let's do this real fast again another departure from Brandon from the scriptures we probably should end here yeah

01:25:05

I got an appointment yeah so let's go ahead and end on this one in Romans chapter 1 you'll see another one of Brandon Robertson's departures from the biblical world view because he speaks the

01:25:17

Apostle Paul speaks in a very different way at many points than Brandon and after he says he's not ashamed of the gospel of Christ he says verse 18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth for what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them for his invisible attributes namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made so they are without excuse unapologetus without an apologia without a reasoned defense for although they knew

01:26:07

God it says that all of God's creation all of these image bearers of God know him they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him but they became futile and their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened claiming to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal

01:26:22

God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things I wonder it says therefore

01:26:27

God gave them up in the lust of their hearts to impurity to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves I wonder if Brandon is not familiar with this section of scripture that denies what he just said about God not being known

01:26:38

I wonder if he's not familiar with it because that's also the very section of scripture that says that these people actually switched

01:26:45

God for an idol and men started going with men and women with women burning in their lust for one another so much for this claim to like oh this is temple prostitution this is a person who's like you know just trying to emasculate a man and you know he's involved in penetrating this man and this other person's like you know temple prostitute that kind of stuff it's like wait a minute what about the burning in lust for each other that's clearly not an objective revelation they burn in lust for each other and it's also interestingly women with women so that doesn't seem to be a very tenable interpretation does it and the text clearly says

01:27:22

Brandon they know God everybody knows him they just don't want God in their knowledge everything about God is clearly perceived and known through what

01:27:30

God has made he has made himself known to them the problem isn't that they don't know him objectively it's that they don't want him it's not a problem of a problem of a lack of light according to Romans 1 it's a problem of sinful suppression of truth so much so in denial of Brandon's claim that all of humanity is left unapologetus without a reasoned defense they don't have an apologetic kind of like you

01:27:54

Brandon no reasoned defense that's what the text says how far are we into this 737 there's 13 minutes there maybe we'll do it next week we'll finish it up final words thank you

01:28:08

I know Gabe's got the super chat there's been some awesome people in the super chat today so thank you yeah super chats rightly dividing the word radar apologetics samurai style

01:28:18

TV DW Panzer Lair Fargo 007 The Nehu thank you for that encouragement keep up the good work

01:28:25

Pastor Jeff and Pastor James Jake keep up the good work Pastor Jeff God bless you thank you Jake Andy you guys have advice for protesting

01:28:31

Evangeline and Drag Show Story Hour be a first time protesting I would say go there with the gospel go there with love and grace preach the truth preach the gospel and make sure you're protected because the cops may try to arrest you yeah stay off of private property honor and respect private property that's very important for Christians when you engage in any kind of evangelism like this as far as you possibly can you respect private property because God's law would demand that of you don't breach that stay where you can stay in a way where there's you know freedom and access and all the rest and preach the truth trust in God to bring a blessing to the proclamation of his word don't forget everybody please go to apologiastudios .com

01:29:16

sign up for all access we have a ton more rolling out for you guys we are working on an app eventually this year and we're adding all kinds of new programs just for our all access partners thank you guys for making everything we do possible including even the video with Brandon Robertson making sure that the world sees that all of our evangelism videos

01:29:35

Luke and I are very excited because the Mormon Temple Easter pageant is coming up and we have

01:29:40

General Conference we're going to do both of them this year and General Conference in Salt Lake City we're going to get all kinds of time out there to do evangelism to minister to our

01:29:47

Mormon friends and family and to preach the gospel to them we're going to hopefully get some of that content for you guys as well

01:29:52

Pastor James White and I are doing a debate with two atheists on ethics at the

01:29:58

University of Utah on April 1st is that April Fool's Day? it is providential it is