April 6, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Debates in Salt Lake City and the Temple Question

Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white and we are alive after a weekend in Salt Lake City. Well, I guess you'd call it a weekend in Salt Lake City and that and I'm not sure it's really a weekend, but we were there for the.

Well, we weren't there for the general conference. I cannot hear myself I am going up up up up up in the little thing there and I sound like I'm a million miles away and Sound like anyway, we're getting a little better there, but still got a ways to go.

See, it's the first day back. Now. We're getting better now. We've taken out whatever the filtering stuff we had in there. I would imagine that probably the soundboard went with us to Salt Lake and so everything's all messed up and.

So it takes us a couple programs to get back where it belongs, but that's what we were doing. We were up in Salt Lake City, and we did two debates a debate on Friday night both were at the University of Utah and a few of you found us.

We were in a venue that it's a little difficult to find and very dark very my recollection of these debates will always be very dark. We had to we had some fun trying to get the lights to work. You know, yeah, you know.

You're in the big time when you're standing there with a big long piece of board trying to reaime lights and the whole thing just Falls on your head and but because the whole thing is about to fall down some of the other lights turn on.

Whoo, that's fun. Anyway, we managed to get it all put together and had two good debates I wouldn't call them the most challenging debates I've ever done quite honestly the first debate I Appreciated Richard Hopkins being willing anyways, unlike the vast majority of Mormons in Utah to actually debate an issue.

There are it seems that there's not a lot of Mormons left that actually believe Mormonism is is Objectively true in comparison to anything else and are willing to defend that position. And so he was willing to do so we were debating temples.

Whether temple building is consistent with new test of Christianity and I the the one thing that was very odd was that at one point in the debate I was listening to My opponent speaking and and I I think I understood him and eventually I had to ask the question during cross-examination.

He went to Hebrews chapter 10 beginning of verse 19 and I found that interesting. I was just finishing up a paper a article for a journal on Hebrews 8 and also dealt with 10 through 18, so I was certainly familiar with the context.

But he read the following passage therefore brethren since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus by a new And living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil. That is his flesh and since we have a great high priest a great priest over the house of God let us draw near with a sincere heart and full assurance of faith having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water and the way this is being presented was you see the Apostles and The Christians were still gathering in the temple.

And so the idea was they were actually doing Temple worship or temple ordinances, and I guess we're even entering the holy place in the temple in Jerusalem. And I'm like, do you have any idea? Don't you remember what happened to Paul when it was just rumored that he had brought a non Jew into the temple Let alone the holy place.

I mean Wow. So it was it was interesting. I really don't know if Mormon scholars at BYU would present that because we can't get Mormon scholars at BYU to discuss these issues publicly and So, I don't know but that was that was interesting I had an opportunity of presenting the you know The the perfection of Christ and his priesthood and things like that and then on Saturday night We were supposed to be debating the issue of homosexual marriage is homosexual does the Bible support homosexual marriage and.

My.

Opponent was is the the head of the Metropolitan the light of Christ Metropolitan Community Church. Metropolitan Community Church, of course is the homosexual denomination and he is a self-professed homosexual and we were debating that issue and Unfortunately, he didn't get to the issue of marriage until about two and a half minutes before the end of his opening statement.

So it really did not Focus upon the issue of marriage. I had sort of hoped that it would because that's extremely relevant right now. I did spend the first ten minutes of my presentation on The subject of marriage and hopefully a positive presentation of God's right to define marriage and and things like that.

But since the majority of my opponent's presentation was based upon basically looking at what he called I found interesting. He called them the clobber passages Genesis 18 Leviticus 18 Leviticus 20 Romans 1 1st Corinthians 6 and 1st Timothy 1 the classic passages that deal with the subject of homosexuality and in essence the in essence the argument that was presented was That you can look at these passages.

You can look at all of them. You can go to the Lord pray and the Lord can reveal to you that that's not you. That's not about you that these passages are only about idolaters. Those who are involved in idolatry and as long as you love God and as long as you're not involved in idolatry then all those passages have nothing to do with you and.

So during the cross-examination period I Asked this individual I said if in your role is in leadership your church if you had a parishioner come to you. Whoa big change if you had a parishioner come to you and Say well, you know pastor I have I have been struggling for for many years with Covetousness because we had looked at first Corinthians 6 and I had focused upon the fact that there's the term Covetousness there and had you know made sure that we emphasize that there is you know everybody in that room is described there in first Corinthians chapter 6 such were some of you and.

And so I used covetous as my example, I said, you know pastor I've struggled with cover just my entire life and. But you know, I went to God and I prayed and.

I.

The Lord revealed to me that these passages aren't about me. And in fact these these passages are. Are about someone now. I just lost myself. These passages are about someone who is. You know how difficult it is to talk when you're going.

Things are changing your headphone. I'm just gonna take the headphones off for now I'll just talk to y 'all and and later on we'll figure something out. Anyways, uh what if what if um. What if what happens here is is that the gods revealed to me that this is only be about people who are involved in in Idolatry and that's not me.

So so pastor. I have such I have such peace now and and harmony and and all is wonderful and well and What would you say to him now? I just used his entire argument in presenting it back to him and it was.

The only response we got was well, I'd have to look at what. What change took place in a person's life that was the entirety of it, so I Tried to do as much as I could on the subject of.

Marriage.

But that wasn't the primary primary Presentation that I was hearing coming from the perspective. So I it was you know juggling and so on so forth. So we did the best we could then on Saturday.

Easter Pageant, Street Preachers, and the Witness in Mesa

Ah.

Goodness, some of you may know that this is the week before Easter, of course and that for well starting.

It would have been.

1982.

Yeah, 1982. I was Hmm I was Was a hmm. That was exactly 20 years of age. Oh, I can put my headphones back on now. Okay. All right. Someone said that's uh, okay. There we go. I've been informed that he who plays with controls has stopped playing with controls so I can put the headphones back on now.

I was about 20 years old and Rode out to the Easter pageant on a Kawasaki 440 Easter pageant in the Mormon Church put on the front lawn of the Mormon Temple at Maine and Hobson in Mesa, Arizona and my young wife came with me and That started a yearly journey that two years later started we were there every single night and We'll be going back out again tonight after 20 some odd years of more than 20 years of doing this and but we may not be going out the rest of the week and The reason that we will not be going out the rest of the week is because the same King James only Fundamentalist Baptist Street preachers Who have destroyed any meaningful outreach and have blasphemed the gospel?

Blasphemed the Lord in the presence of the LDS people up there have promised to be in Mesa this week and They had promised us last year but there were a couple of weeks between the Easter pageant and the general conference and so many of them do not Live in this particular area and so they weren't able to do so the problem is that the general conference finished Sunday night, and they would have been able to travel yesterday and Hence we are expecting that they are going to be in Mesa now the Mesa City Police Department May take care of these problems for us, and we are certainly hoping so.

But the fact the matter is when these people end up anywhere nearby. I mean even if they are pushed off a hundred yards away in the park someplace It will still make trying to do anything out. There is simply impossible because they are so filled with hatred.

They're so they just ooze hatred for the Mormon people. They so blaspheme the gospel by their their Activities and by their attitudes that you just simply you can't get into conversations. And you can't expect the Mormons to differentiate between anyone who's standing outside one of what they consider their Presentations and doing these things.

I want to play a section for you. This is from the April 2003 conference the folks at fair LDS org which is rarely fair to me, but.

They.

Put out so they videotaped some of these people this particular guy that I'm gonna play the clip from. Really was doing his best try to get me to take a poke at him Saturday morning. I we went went by the conference and.

We.

Saw these clowns, and I'm not referring to the King James only guys. People dressed as clowns standing next to the preachers. Evidently mocking them and so I wanted to get some pictures this I wanted to keep up on what's going on down there.

Well I should have grabbed a hat or something because I was immediately recognized. And I'll give you some examples of that in in just a moment, but this is from the a year ago. This one individual he's he's a big fella.

Sort of short, but has a big big mouth. He's one of the first ones I ever talked to. I rescued him from a Mormon that was that was just shredding him. Just taking him apart because these men they're they're not called the ministry.

They don't have any knowledge of the Bible they can't do exegesis there the the Bible describes them as brute beasts and Jude and in 2nd Peter and so I had stepped into a conversation with this particular LDS person and have been able to Talk that LDS person and share the share the gospel with them in a calm manner.

After this fellow, you know sort of fell off track. But he was doing his best to try to get me to take a poke at him on Saturday morning this is a videotape he's standing pretty much exact same place where he tried to confront me on Saturday and What he's doing is he's got a Book of Mormon on a string.

He's tied a string like a leash on a Book of Mormon, and he's dragging the Book of Mormon around on the ground. This is during the height of the rush period when people are coming out from the conference.

So just try to imagine what this would be like if you walk out of your church. And there's somebody out front dragging the Bible around the ground doesn't that just you know communicate concern. And a desire to really enter into meaningful Discussion and dialogue doesn't that.

Doesn't that just you know really show a tremendous spiritual insight. Yes indeed well while he's doing this he's also yelling and screaming so we need to have the computer up here and Here is what took place in April of 2003 at the General Conference the Mormon Church up in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Here's your sacred writings right here. Come and defend it. Don't worry. The Bible doesn't say you're going to be a god. This is a lie. This is a lie of the devil. This meeting there ought to be an elf that can confront me with your sacred book.

I hope this will lure you in. Where oh where is the truth. The truth is in the Bible? Bring up y 'all he wants them. Y 'all. The Bible was written by holy men not perverts. Come on Mormons. Come and defend your book.

There's the book of Mormon right there. Come and defend your book. Another one in a banana peel. And you're going to meet God. You're going to meet God, and you're not going to be a god. I'm not claiming to but this church does this church does.

This is not a church. This is an elk sludge. This is a moose lodge. That's all it is.

Yeah, well. You can tell that that really draws men and that that allows for meaningful dialogue on biblical subjects. There's a lot of respect for the gospel. These these are these folks just hate mongers.

They're they're brute beasts. They're hate mongers. There's there's no reasoning with them. If you want example. The same fellow who didn't know that Gail Ripplinger his name is Ripplinger that his was talking about.

Gail Kiplinger was out on a milk crate Preaching this past Saturday in Salt Lake City. And we got some examples. Was preaching, but he was first one to recognize me. I would imagine that you know you probably would since he was the one wearing the bald cap.

The.

Prosthetic device couple years ago and anyway, he's standing there yelling and screaming at the Mormons and Recognized me and so he starts yelling and screaming at me saying they're gonna come preach at our church.

That's he realized what this this abusive language. They call that preaching. Obviously they don't know what preaching is they probably don't hear it and don't know what it is and so they call this preaching and When people don't like this quote-unquote preaching.

Then that proves to them that they're spiritual and that they're doing the right thing see and it's it's a sad thing, but anyway He was talking. He's a Ruckmanite he's a big fan of Peter Ruckman of course Peter Ruckman is a racist and and Is the the wacko eight out of Pensacola who?

You know sent me in fact. I'm looking over here book called black is beautiful which has all sorts of racist drawings in it and stuff like that and and this guy's a Ruckmanite and So he's yelling and screaming at me about Peter Ruckman.

And so he was talking about Peter Ruckman's letters to me which we have on our website if you've looked the website. You know that that Ruckman Uses off-color language. And he would scratch things out on letters and and write stuff and in the in the columns.

And you can see is all this on our website, so I attempted to ask him If he also accepts Ruxman Ruckman's language and these individuals they cannot they they brute beasts cannot Rationally dialogue with you they cannot answer a meaningful question and so all they can do is scream at you all they can do is yell at you and They know if they stop and actually try to answer a question that they're that's it.

It's all over for them, so This is a video. I'm seeing it on my screen right now my little Camera my little Canon sure shot camera. What is this thing here? It's a Power shot s 200 digital elf that's just one teeny tiny little cameras, but does a good job.

This is an AVI file. I'm right in front of this guy he's standing up above me on his milk crate and He's using his hand and a Bible to create a sort of a megaphone he's yelling directly into my face and so my camera sees almost nothing, but his head and his hands as He's yelling here, and you can hear me trying to ask him if he supports the language that Ruckman uses.

This is Saturday morning right outside the temple listen listen to what he has to say. Didn't you didn't you yeah, just case you didn't catch all that's the wind by the way. It's very windy up there. Yes, I'm the devil and so here here here.

It's a preaching of the Word of God. Yeah, okay, that's the kind of people that's uh that are headed our direction and It's a scourge that's just all there is to it folks. It is absolutely a scourge and I showed some of these videos to some folks at church Sunday night, and they just stood there staring at these people going you.

You've got to be kidding people.

Act that way that they think this is they think this is Godly said yep there you go. So you know anyone who knows of the churches that support these people. If you know any of these pastors try to reason with them try it try to explain.

Do you have any idea? What what these quote-unquote street preachers are about? It's just absolutely positively amazing if you dare to Reprove them to point out from Scripture. What they're really all about this is what they do.

They're just they're just hate mongers. It's a horrible thing to observe well anyways eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we'll have the. We're of course we're in the process of shifting over from videos to DVDs and so the DVD of the Barry Lynn debate on Homosexuality will be available soon, so you'll want to grab that and then you'll want to watch the ad column.

That's the column on the right-hand side of the web page for the announcement of the availability normally first the mp3s and then over time the DVDs of the debate. That debates that we had in Salt Lake City.

First with on the subject of temples and also sort of touching the subject of priesthood you can hardly you can't discuss the Mormon priest temples that discussing Mormon priesthood and Then also we will be looking at making available the debate on Wells sort of homosexuality it was supposed to be Homosexual marriage, but it ended up being on the on homosexuality primarily.

Which also was recorded this past weekend eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is phone number also we Will go to our first caller here in just a moment, but I also mentioned on the blog This morning.

I think it was this morning that though We had publicly Invited dr. William Hamblin professor of history at Brigham Young University some of you may recognize the name. He is the Individual who was on the radio program a number of years ago with Daniel C. Peterson dr. Peterson one of the principles and farms foundation for ancient research of Mormon studies.

Dr.. Peterson's the one who on a station in California said that he would debate me anytime anywhere when we actually invite him to do so he did not even return the phone call at his wife returned the phone call and Will not do so so he says one thing when he's in public and another thing when we get right around to it.

Dr.. Hamblin likewise who came with him. We had to invite him to debate the issue of temples because he chose to criticize and I think very improperly a little track that we wrote back for the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple when it was rededicated number of years ago and Some of you saw on the blog going back and forth we wanted to challenge him to do a debate on the subject.

He will not debate in front of cameras. He said I don't want you people making money. You're anti Mormons that it us so we offered to make the Debate available at cost that that didn't work either and So eventually what happened was?

He said look. I just want to debate this on the internet. Let's talk about what you said in your track on the internet.

I said well.

I'll tell you what when we get back from the debates in Salt Lake City, and we'll talk about that. Well while we were sitting in the airport in Salt Lake City. I typed up a proposal as to how to do an internet debate on the subject and posted it and.

He.

Responded and and you know basically said well, what about this. Is this. I said, that's fine. We'll do all those things, and I said you know what life's too short. I'm done dealing with you, and that's it.

So we've tried. You know we've we've we've done everything. I Realize these folks have nothing to gain everything to lose. They have nothing to gain by engaging us. They've already got their their audience up there in Salt Lake City and and the sort of insulated area.

Got nothing to gain everything to lose and so I you know I understand that but we've we've made the invitation we made the availability and It is simply not something that's going to end up taking place at this particular point in time so we thought we would mention that and It's there the information is there on the blog.

Election, Exegesis, and the Limits of Human Argument

Eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one. Let's go ahead and start taking our phone calls, and let's talk with the gym over in California. Hi, Jim.

Doing good. I have a gentleman. I've been meeting judging from what he said he wrote he read people. He's the only thing he believes in this person's for that. He says he doesn't so he admits that yeah I just pointed out that in his me out.

He's never gonna. Let me go. Wow you know cuz he he chose me. Yeah, my question for you is he believes that God draws the elect it's where they can accept the offer if they decline they go back down into their depravity.

Hmm. Well, it's not unusual there many people hold the idea that that God in essence.

Acts in that in that fashion that he there is this sort of this drawing This this bring a person to a moral neutral point so that there is a an opportunity To make a choice a choice that will be they will be held accountable for.

And that.

If that particular choice if they do not make the right choice. Then they are sort of thrown back into into the mire from which they had been briefly drawn up to a moral neutral point. Of course the problem is When you say I'm having trouble refuting that.

You have to remember that one of the one of the problems that I think we sometimes have is that we're not really clear on The nature of sound argumentation and interpretation. That is if he makes this assertion the weight is upon him to prove the assertion not upon you to disprove it.

He's not going to be able to find any particular Foundational passage that says that God lifts a person up or draws a person to a particular point. So as to have some capacity to overcome total depravity.

Certainly John 6 says just the opposite if he's going to use the term draw. There in John 6 the problem. He has John 6 44 is That those who are drawn are raised up. He's saying you can be drawn without being raised up.

There's the standard problem right there. In in that kind of a theory so you have to ask okay, so where are you getting this particular? Assertion. Show me from the text. Show me don't show me a text that you think is consistent with what you believe.

Show me a text that forces you to believe what you believe and it's going to force me to believe what you believe. Show me the positive Presentation so I can see why I should believe this and that's of course where stuff falls apart is That the vast majority of folks are not doing exegesis where they're drawing that meaning out of the text.

They're doing eisegesis. They're reading it into a text. They're creating it because well this this will allow me to answer the questions in a way that makes me feel good. So I create my system, and then I go and find passages of the Bible.

I say see it's consistent with this that's not how you interpret even what you and I would write if someone wrote an email and If you wrote this individual an email He would not appreciate it if you deal with his email in that fashion.

He would not appreciate it if you if you interpreted him in that way and just inserted your thoughts into what he was saying. But that's what we're doing with the Bible in this type of a situation so my response to be yeah.

You can't reviewed something that hasn't been given a foundation. So you ask him all right show me the exegetical basis for this Semi drawing that does not result in salvation it can't be John 6 in fact.

You need to explain to me John 644 because the drawing there does result in being raised up. And then we can discuss it, but you can't refute something that hasn't been given a foundation.

That's not a solid argument on his part, but unfortunately in the vast majority of conversations. That's what happens of the elect. He says there's like another drawing. He doesn't really wear. I'll use the word drawing, but where is it found?

Yeah, I've asked him that and then what he does is talks about That God won't violate our freedom because he doesn't make robots, and what is the nature of love. And he goes in the Old Testament about you know choose you to stay who you will serve and.

That's that's wonderful and nice, but if he's going to going to Tell us that there is this This is what he believes God does if he is you know? People need to realize that they're gonna say this is what God does.

You're now speaking for God you are now Reflecting upon God's actions and characters and therefore Just simply throwing stuff out for the fun of it is not really a wise thing to do. If he's going to make that statement Then he needs to give you some sort of foundation upon which you can then examine the the assertion, and he's not.

He's not providing that so I take him to Ephesians one first part of that chapter. And he says well that wasn't written to believe if God made a special deal with them. And yeah, he did choose them before the foundation of the world.

Oh, so the.

So the entire foundation there that then Talks about Jews and Gentiles Which which were the so that's the Jewish and Gentiles of Apostles is that what he's talking about is the the this the Holy Spirit That is the down payment of our redemption Ephesians 114.

That's only the Apostles. Where is that switch? I mean, this is this is this is Obviously this individual is is not concerned about consistent exegesis. And you know there's only so far you can go with that in my experience until the the Holy Spirit of God Really impresses upon a person's heart a Deep desire to be obedient to his word.

Well. There's always a way around any truth. That's just all there is to it and You know people call the program all the time. Hey, what can I say to make this person see this you can't I? I'm gonna put my you know I'm telling everybody right now.

Sorry I can I can give you the best argumentation I know of but the simple fact the matter is That's not what's gonna change a person's heart and mind That's that's the work of the spirits and and all we can do is be is honor God by accurately handling his word explaining it to others and Then you've got to you got to leave it the spirit at that point all righty.

I appreciate it. Do you have any resources partaking of the Holy Spirit in that section?

I.

Addressed Hebrews chapter 6 in a sermon at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church in the summer of 2001. I did a series on Hebrews 6 7 8 9 and 10 and. So that would be the doing I could direct you to immediately.

I mean. You know we could discuss it, but we're a couple minutes past the break already, so I appreciate it. I'd like to take a look at there. Okay. It said PR BC org okay, okay? Thanks a lot. God bless.

All right, we're filling up the phone lines. And we need to take a quick break and we'll be taking your calls at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. We will be right back.

It's all Righteousness you know.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In Their book the same-sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about Homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at al min dot org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a.

Omin org. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen. But free. A new cult secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free. You'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. And.

New Testament Authorship and Conservative Scholarship

We'll go back to the dividing line. We are Almost full up full up with calls here. So let's get to them as quickly as we can because the last 20 minutes always goes so quickly. Let's talk with Carl in California.

Hi Carl.

Hi, dr. White. Yeah, I was read an article by half I'll wean hagel's unbelief that not calm which probably wasn't wise but in the article she was in the new Seven of them and I was just wondering she didn't go into why she believed that.

Just where could you. Well, it's very common for.

Scholars even in conservative seminaries today to believe that there is there are pseudo-pauline Epistles in the New Testament normally second Timothy and Titus are listed in there. There are questions about others Depending on the quote-unquote scholar you're talking to that is unfortunately a very very common and many seminaries except For a very very small number of the most conservative Allow that to be taught and it is considered a standard perspective.

Obviously, I reject that and what you have to do is you have to Challenge the basis upon which these argumentations made you can see for example in various of the conservative commentaries Interaction in almost all of them right at the beginning regarding authorship and a discussion of authorship.

Almost any commentary written in the past hundred years is going to have to engage that subject simply because it is so common. For there to be the assertion that these are non-pauline, of course. That gets into a lot of technical argumentation and I couldn't give you a single book that just simply Seeks to defend the pauline authorship of everything of all 13 or if you include Hebrews or whatever.

But that's normally taken care of on an individual commentary by commentary basis. And unfortunately, the vast majority of commentaries that you would obtain today that are written Within the past 30 or 40 years would probably be accepting of that perspective or at least would take the perspective.