Cultish - Finding Hope Beyond Mormonism W/Micah Wilder

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults My name is

Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here. I'm here as always with Andrew the super sleuth of the show

How are you doing Andrew? I am excited. Today is a very special day We have two very special people with us and I don't know

It's just I'm very very stoked for this super excited. And I think you're gonna I'm really Excited for the very unique perspectives are going to be contrasted today.

We have with us Dan Tate He has been on several episodes the initial one when we launched cultish deciphering the book of Abraham Translation we had a whole like historical origin story about this interesting time of Mormonism We did a whole series about how to talk to more missionaries

We learned all the ins and outs of it, including the secret password Leah Hona If you want to know the secret behind that check out that episode

There's a total inside joke just how to throw that out But you've and also I think you're on the Mark Hoffman and the

Mormon murders. Yes episode and so you're also member apologia You are former you were in the LDS church for 27 years and you're now a member of apology at church

And so we have us with we have with us today also Micah Wilder you have quite the story.

You just released a new book I want to make sure I is it passport to heaven? Mm -hmm.

Yep. Okay. Well awesome It's welcome. It's honor to have you with us. And yeah, it's good to talk to you.

Oh, it's awesome to be here I appreciate this opportunity Awesome. Excellent. And so yeah, let's just kind of jump into it.

Just tell from the very beginning. So how long ago? Did this whole situation take place?

I remember several years ago reading your mother's book Unveiling grace and being blown away by that and I I just actually finished the audible book today and it felt like one of those

Those but almost those books there are companions alongside of each other where you read one book where you see a movie and you see and all of a sudden there's

You see another movie. That's a the same timeline, but a different vantage point, right? And so it almost made it made me want to go back now and re -listen to unveiling grace

Now that I just finished listening to your book so that kind of so fresh I really enjoyed it. But how long ago did this whole thing transpire?

When did this take place initially? So I was a missionary in Florida from 2004 to 2006

So it's been 15 years plus since I've returned from my LDS mission.

Okay. Yeah and so it's been a while and so you have been I Remember seeing that there's been a couple of videos that have gone around and a couple ones

I think it went viral a couple years ago where you were giving a talk and people were sharing it a lot I saw the different platforms being shared

When you initially came out and you wrote the book recently what? What it prompted you to write the book now

I mean, it seems like there's a large gap in between when you came out of more of it more than to just now releasing

This book now what what prompted you now to write the book versus not earlier? So I actually began the book a week after I returned from my

LDS mission Writing this book has actually been a 15 -year labor of love for me

Wow Communicating the the immensity of what God did in my life

While I was a Mormon missionary and and how intimately he was reaching out to me and brought me to to the truthfulness

That was revealed in the Word of God. And so that honestly it's been it's been a long process for me I began writing it then and of course,

I was a very young believer at the time and so I was going through my own process of sanctification right of growing in the knowledge and grace of Christ and and I Think that the timing of it, of course was

God's timing But I think that I was final at a place where I was mature enough in my own faith in my understanding of Scripture and in my perspective

Just as a as a man to be able to look back and I think really tell the story in the way that God wanted me to and that was

Almost a way to be an objective viewer within my own story, right? And to be able to see what

God did from a distance and then to to communicate that so it's been a fun process

I actually was a meticulous note -taker I took about a thousand pages of journals while I was a

Latter -day Saint missionary and so I had all these conversations written down all these experiences that I was having reading the

Word of God and And all that I was able to use and to compile into into this book

Yeah and that's incredible too because if you think about just how things work out and and Danny you can testify to this is that the time during a mission the there's a lot that's sort of taken away from you as far as External distractions or at that time it would just be worldly Focuses as they would call it when you get your mission calling

Where you're not, you know, not watching television the news or just limited contact with family.

I believe it's twice a year To call your parents. Yeah. Yeah, it's twice a year.

I think that Micah. Do you know if they've changed that recently? I Think they have changed it. Yeah, the missionaries

I've spoken to most recently. It seems like they pretty much have The ability to call home or text home whenever they want

So, I don't think they have those strict restrictions on communication anymore that that I'm aware of when

I This might be more the case for Micah because he you said from 2004 to 2006

Correct. Okay. I was in Jacksonville, Florida from 2009 to 2011 and we were

I think we were one of the last missions that did not have iPhones or tablets and This was

I think it was Florida it was Texas and it was somewhere else I can't remember that we were the guinea pigs for the

I'm a Mormon campaign. Yeah, and Right after that.

That's when everybody started getting iPhones and tablets They started doing electronic scriptures just to make things easy and I think this is also which is what

I'm getting at the period in which they started bringing missionaries to the internet and social media and So it's things that change a little bit since Micah and I have been out but it's it's interesting

Seeing things are kind of changing up just a little bit and seeing where they're taking things and so it's crazy

It's like you guys are the OG's. Yeah Yeah Yeah, so maybe if we could just take us back to the beginning and a lot of people haven't read your book and if you

Want to check it out. We might leave some links here on when we drop this episode Path passport that was a pathway.

I can't mix it. I'm I spelled it wrong the other day I had to correct myself passport to heaven. Definitely a fantastic book.

Maybe just take us to the very beginning Maybe just talk a little bit about what it was like growing up in a

Mormon household I mean, that's I think that's a vantage point that a lot of people just don't Understand.

I mean, I feel like I had some some level I was on the I'd be I got to be on the outside looking in I went to a high school

That was 98 % Mormon for about two years and all my classmates were

Mormon all of my And it's interesting you mentioned about your mother being a tenured professor at BYU Pretty much every single at the time.

I went to this Mormon High School It was every single teacher was pretty much a graduate of BYU or had some sort of affiliation with them

So I got to sort of see that culture a little bit just for about two years, but you grew up in it

Yeah, tell them just tell me just a little about your upbringing and whereabouts in the United States. Was it? Yeah, so I was born and raised in Indiana.

So I'm from the Midwest. My parents were actually converts Mormonism Okay, so they were college -age students graduate students at Ball State University to Mormon missionaries knocked on their door and My parents were enamored by this this message of the restored gospel

What's interesting about my parents is that they were both raised in Christian homes. And so they had a background

My father was a Southern Baptist My mother was a Methodist and so they had a grounding of Scripture and in the

Word of God in their life But obviously it wasn't wasn't sufficient And so when the Mormon missionaries came and presented this restored gospel presented the idea of eternal families

I think that they were very drawn to that and And ultimately joined the church and so we were raised in the church

So we're not multi -generational, but I can say that my parents were very devout Mormons Very strong in their faith raised us in a very loving and faithful and devout

Mormon household So it's a little different growing up in the Midwest because we were part of the minority

I was one of only three Mormons in my entire school And so it was actually really something that I wanted to live out.

I wanted to be an example to my peers To to the people around me and I was a very devout

Mormon myself. I was very Deliberate about trying to Establish righteousness with God by my own goodness and from a young age and I talk about this in the book

I really was drawn to a relationship with God even as a child But the older that I got the more that I saw that relationship through the lens of my religion and so I believe that in order to have

The things that I was trying to earn right love and forgiveness and favor and grace and all these things that I needed to prove myself to God and so it propelled me into being a very zealous Mormon much like Saul of Tarsus when he said that he was advancing in Judaism Beyond many people his own age how extremely zealous was he for the traditions of his father's a

Hebrew of Hebrew I was like a Mormon of Mormons and so that kind of It drove my childhood and it and it really became my identity

Really as a person was who I was in the Mormon Church And then when I was a freshman in high school, my mother got a job to be a professor at BYU And so my family left

Indiana moved right to the heart of Mormonism to a little town called Alpine, Utah Which is about 98 %

Latter -day Saint And so the high school I attended to was also 98 % Mormon lonely high school there in Highland, Utah And so everything in my life all of a sudden became saturated in in Mormonism in this religious identity

All of my friends all of my classmates all of my peers, you know All of my neighbors everybody that I knew and had relationships with and interacted with were also

Members of the Latter -day Saint Church. And so it really I wanted to stand out among my peers

I wanted to be somebody whom God noticed and I really wanted to be like David I wanted to be a person after God's own heart and I figured the way to do that was to be the best

Mormon of the best Mormons and to you know Very zealously adhere to the laws and the commandments of Mormonism I mean,

I remember even as a high school student My girlfriend and I used to go to the Mormon Temple at 530 in the morning before class and we'd go do

Baptisms for the dead we'd go perform these ordinances in the temple because I thought that I was establishing

You know a deeper relationship with God through the works that I was offering him according to Mormonism.

And so in high school Again that that zeal continued I was very well known amongst my peers for being somebody who is who is faithful to my religion

And I my friends would tell me all the time. You're gonna be a general authority. You're gonna be apostle, you know It's just because it's who

I was Because they saw that I was devoted to to my belief system and it wasn't just a surface level thing

It was something that I lived out and I really believed it and I testified of it And I made it the the center of my life, right it wasn't just the church

I attended on Sunday It was my relationship with God through Mormonism Was the impetus for everything that I did and everything that I wanted to do

Yeah, and who um at this time who would have been the main? Prophet at this time.

I'm trying to think time -wise wouldn't be Hinckley Gordon be Hinckley. Yeah, I mean you mentioned in the book So that's that's the time frame.

Okay. Yep. So Gordon Hinckley was was the prophet I think most of my life and again,

I I loved him. I adored him I would watch general conference And just be in tears listening to him and the

Apostles speak because I believed That they were from God and they were speaking the words of God and and I truly had a testimony of the church

Yeah, well without at that time you mentioned people are kind of looking up to you and I love the fact

You're just mentioning just like the zealousness that you have and that's just one of the things I've always appreciated about My our friend our

LDS friends and neighbors while we don't agree with them theologically We know they we need to reach them. You know, they are incredibly zealous and sincere people for sure

But what as much and also I was thinking about the quote to where it says like anything worth doing is worth overdoing

Which is very much as the case But Micah as far as what people looking up to you were there also people in your upbringing mentioned like looking up to people like Gordon Hinckley was there anyone else that you kind of looked up to or aspire to want to be like What did you have a point of reference yourself as so far as you saw someone living this out?

And if so, what did that look like? Yeah, that's a good question. I would say

The the Apostle at the time that I really looked up to his name was Jeffrey Holland Yep, and and he was a very very passionate guy he was kind of like He set the bar for what

I wanted to be and that was somebody who I'll be honest like there was a part of me that coveted leadership in the church and and not necessarily for my own glory

But because I wanted to serve God to the greatest capacity that I could and so I kind of like pined for that Opportunity to to have influence over other people because I wanted to you know

Share with them what I had come to know and that was that the church was true and that it was life -changing And this is why and so yeah,

Jeffrey Hall. Another one was Henry Eyring And I don't know if it was their propensity for emotion But I Jeffrey Holland was kind of one that always was a little more if there's such a thing

More of a Jesus centered Mormon Apostle if that makes sense He was not afraid to say it how it was to him.

Yeah, and that always struck me the same way as well Yeah, and so that and and honestly not to be too corny, but Joseph Smith, you know,

I I really Loved Joseph Smith I I didn't study his life into the sense that it took me into Aspects of the history and character of Joseph Smith that I now know and understand

But at the time it was what was taught to me right through the church and the church manuals and I just fell in love with His passion for serving

God or that's how I saw it or that's how it was portrayed to me from you know From the church and and again,

I wanted that I said like I want To serve God. I want to give my heart to God.

I want to follow God I want to be right in the bosom of Christ and and how do

I do that? Well, I do it by being the most zealous Adherent to to Mormonism as I can possibly be and so those were kind of the the righteous the the bar of righteousness

In which I was always trying to clear. Mm -hmm. Yeah, okay So I have another question too and then I think Andrew I saw you think you have one as well, too

You know, I think about you're mentioning looking up to Joseph Smith and I'm thinking about my classmates and like going over to their house and in the same way growing up in a

Christian household I would have these story books that be a story books of the Bible people like Jonah or the story of Moses or just or just biblical characters that I'll be used to and Then going to their house and I would see this giant collection of books telling the stories about the

Mormon pioneers Going out west or just some of the stories that were unique to Mormons And so from from your vantage point not what you know now

But at that time when you're looking at the whole story of Joseph Smith from the time He went out into the woods and everything about him

What specifically was it about it as a Mormon when you look at that whole story that really? You admired the most if you could think about a specific point in the whole story of everything that Joseph claimed to have to have

Done at that time. Yeah, so that's a good question And just before I answer that like when you were talking about going over to Mormons friends and seeing all this

I grew up in a very unique household. I think even from a Mormon perspective my parents I I think maybe it was because of their their growing up in Christian homes

They were very Jesus centered Mormons And so our home and our family was different than a lot of what

I observed from other Mormons especially when I moved to Utah is there there was much more of a devotion to the church right to the

Prophet to pioneers the history of Mormonism and not so much to to Christ himself and I think that and I praise

God for this, you know that my parents did kind of raise us with more of a more of a focus on Jesus and and even the

Bible I think that a lot of Mormons then then then some of my peers Oh when I was seeing

Joseph Smith like I think the thing that was most impactful to me would have been the first vision and the first vision is when

Jeet when Joseph Smith was praying about which church to join that he was visited by God the

Father and Jesus two different beings and both in bodies of flesh and bone who came to him in person and revealed to him that none of the churches were true that their creeds were an abomination to God and that through Joseph Smith the true

Church would be restored to the earth And so I think that that was that has to be kind of the foundation of any

Mormons testimony to be honest Because if he was lying about that then everything else Is going to be built on a on a sandy foundation.

And so for me, I saw Joseph Smith as well Here's a 14 year old kid I remember being 14 and thinking about and comparing myself to Joseph Smith and trying to Imagine having that type of experience and wanting to have that type of experience

And and thinking wow like like that's how good God is that he would appear to a 14 year old boy

And he would bring truth through such a simple you know vessel and that was kind of how

I saw it and now that was almost to me evidence of The truthfulness of the restored gospel of Mormonism was that it wasn't through some, you know, well educated older man

It was through this young boy and that God through him was was speaking truth to the world today and so I held on to that and I believed that and And then of course the fruit of that was the the

Book of Mormon as missionaries We would always say, you know that the what is the fruit will know a prophet by their fruits

And so this is the fruit of the Prophet Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon and I was very Again enamored by the

Book of Mormon. I remember reading in the introduction of the Book of Mormon It says that a man will get near to God By abiding by the precepts of this book than any other book and I read that as a teenager

All I'm thinking is my greatest desire in life My greatest desire in this world is to have a relationship with God and this book is telling me that this is the way to Do it, right?

Yeah you know you can't no Mormon can say that they don't put the Book of Mormon on a higher plane than all other scripture and So I dove into the

Book of Mormon I read it several times and even as a even as a Mormon even in that stage of my life

I was still drawn to the aspects of the Book of Mormon that pointed toward Christ right that pointed toward Jesus and the passages in third

Nephi when Jesus visits them in the Americas and and he's basically recounting the

Sermon on the Mount like those were the parts of the Book of Mormon even that really drew me and so I think That God was for a long time

You know beginning this process and in Jesus had known comes to me unless the father who sent me draws him

And so God was drawing me to Jesus and even though I didn't have a full understanding of God of Christ at that time of my life,

I think that God was was beginning this process of Preparing me to ultimately come to his truth

Wow, that's good because when because when you're up that pretty much answers the question I was just about to ask

I was thinking because you know hindsight's always 20 -20 looking back now at your life when you're doing

You know going to do the baptisms for the dead going to the temple 530 in the morning doing these things You felt was developing your relationship closer to God, right?

But we know according to Scripture that doing these types of things doesn't get you closer to God Especially if it's coming from a false gospel in a false religion

So let's let's just say that there's people that are LDS right now listening to this They base off their their relationship and how it is with God through these experiences

That they're doing through the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principle principles, right? If you were to look back on your life knowing what you know now and you know that there's

LDS people listening and they base their truth off of these experiences What would you like to explain to them?

You know about what actually were are they growing are they going closer to God doing these things

X Y & Z in these ceremonies? Or what what are they growing closer to what's actually happening spiritually to these people?

Yeah, that's a that's a great question one of one of the themes throughout my book is that even in the the parts of my greatest zeal in the times and my righteousness was was you know as as Good as it could be based on the laws of Mormonism I still had this sense of being unfulfilled like I still felt like I wasn't there

I wasn't in that relationship with God as I had always sought and as I read about in Scripture and so when

I was going through this these these motions right in these experiences and trying to You know make myself right with God through what

I was doing It was never enough and I and I had genuine spiritual experiences and one of the one of the things that a lot of Mormon people like to say is well

You never really believed it or you didn't understand the doctrine right and they try to discount or discredit my testimony

But I had a very very tangible and real testimony of every principle facet of Mormonism I believed it.

I I prayed about the Book of Mormon. I prayed about the Prophet. I prayed about the church I I knew it.

I went to the temple it at 18 just before my mission I was a full -time worker in the Mormon temple.

I mean I had a unshakable foundation and testimony in these things and I had a sincere belief that they were true and I had many spiritual experiences and looking back now, of course,

I recognize that These spiritual experiences they don't dictate our relationship with God truth does and so one of the passages even as a

Mormon missionary that really resonated with me or begin to Cause me to question things was 1st

John chapter 4 where the Apostle John Says that we need to test the spirits

Yeah See whether they are from God for many false prophets have gone out into the world and then he goes out and he outlines

You know how we test those spirits and so to realize that that there is There is truth right and that truth of course is

Jesus and he is the Word of God made flesh and he came and dwelt among us and so we have the truth of Jesus and we have the account of that truth in the

God -breathed inerrant Word of God found in the Bible and so all of a sudden God began to shift my my

Understanding of how to get to him was not through these spiritual experiences. It wasn't through going to the temple

It wasn't through praying about whether something was true. It was going to the source of That truth and that was his very word and then testing those things against the

Word of God and so my encouragement especially for Latter -day Saints that may be listening to this that are having those experiences or doing all of these works and ordinances trying to Establish that relationship with God trying to come and to be closer to him

We have the the greatest source to know God and that is Jesus Christ And he is the

Word of God made flesh and when we go to the word and when we test all things against the word We can be drawn into that perfect and saving and eternal relationship with Christ Not by anything that we've done and not by our merits and not by our righteousness

But by coming to recognize the message of God's Word which is that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all things and that through his complete and one act of righteousness on the cross of Calvary we can be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ and we can have peace with God by the blood of his cross and that he

Indeed did bear in his body our sins on the tree so that we can then die to sin and live to righteousness

And this hope isn't something that we have to earn or be worthy of or seek for it's it's right there

Revealed in Christ in his word and that was the biggest paradigm shift for me was recognizing that and it's interesting as a

Christian now I don't seek spiritual experiences. I don't need to You know go to a church and put my hands in the air and close my eyes and drift back and forth while Singing Hillsong to be in a relationship with God I'm trying to be you know

I'm not trying to you know be unkind to people but you know, I see that so often like we're trying to Be in God's presence and then we put ourselves in Situations in order to be in his presence and yet those situations are outside of his word, right?

If you want to know God if you want to be closer to God if you want to know who Jesus is go to Go to the

Bible and read it and and through that you will be washed by the water of the Word of God so jumping

Because I think this is an amazing segue into your book and what what the purpose of it was and because everything you've just Explained to me is you know in your book you describe yourself as a young Pharisee which resounded with me unimaginably when you hit that and you know you you've just explained yourself as What you imagined at the best

Mormon you could have been you did everything you were supposed to do and yet you still felt unfulfilled and So with with this place of unfulfillment

Where where does this book come into come into the picture? Does that make sense? You know at some point you started doubting so what what happened at that point?

Did you put it on a shelf for a while? Is this right around the time that you were speaking with this pastor like kind of give the viewers a

Taste of what your book is about and why they should dive into it. Mm -hmm

Yeah, so What's interesting is I was unfulfilled, but I didn't believe that the fulfillment would come outside of Mormonism so I felt like There was always more for me to do that.

I could be better and that God would continually show me more I remember the first time

I went to the temple to to you know to to receive my endowments as they call it, right? It's it's kind of the pinnacle of the temple ordinances

Going there and having prepared for months and and fasted and prayed and read my scriptures

And I went there and I just walked away going there's got to be more, right? It was never like I was never disenchanted with the church and I want to make that clear like I never

Sought or believed that there was anything outside of Mormonism to be truth I believed it was the unequivocal truth that the church was everything that it claimed to be

I just thought what am I doing wrong? Why can't I get there? Right? Why can't I be fully in this relationship with God?

Where I have this assurance of knowing that I stand right with him knowing that my sins are forgiven

Yeah, that was that was this constant process that I was going through was like it was almost this vacillating between like I feel really confident and good but then

I would sin and I would fall and then I would you know have to repent to my bishop and then I would be Uncertain as to my relationship with God and so all this to be said

I I went on a Mormon mission at 19 with this Unparalleled zeal but also with this part of me saying

God I'm not there yet Teach me show me right and so I I kind of began my mission

With the desire of course to convert people to bring them to truth But but for myself to say

God like if the temple can't do it Then what where can I find like the greatest truth that I'm looking for?

There's something missing in my life I can't define what that something is But show me what it is.

And so when I'm on my mission, you know, I'm doing everything that I could I'm very obedient I was put in leadership positions very early on in my two -year mission trip

I'm zealously going about I'm making converts and I'm following the rules and and everybody looks up to me and respects me and And still

I'm searching I'm searching for this unknown thing that exists in my heart

And so four months into my mission I engage with a Baptist pastor because I wanted to convert him

I was that type of missionary. I Believed that I had the truth. I wasn't afraid of Confronting other people with what

I believed was was the truth. And so I sat down with this Baptist pastor who Ended up just just changing my life

Or God used him to change my life because he did two things that had never been done in my life before number one

He planted the seed of the gospel inside of me And when

I say that I had never at my life in my life heard the biblical saving gospel in the way that I heard it from that Baptist pastor and I was 19 the first time that I heard the gospel and every time

I say that I you know Of course, I'm praising God because he put this man into my life

But at the same time, I'm just I'm heartbroken that it took 19 years for a

Christian to step into my life and to Share the truth with me and ironically it wasn't him coming into my life

It was me zealously going to his church trying to convert him to Mormonism that finally put me in a position where I heard the saving gospel and I want to just pause right there and say

I Knew a lot of Christians growing up and I I knew a lot of people who were

Evangelical who were non -mormon, you know faith believers in Jesus Christ and and and not once did any of them ever

Sit me down or take the opportunity to say let me tell you about something different than what you know

And and share the scriptures with me and share the word of God with me and share the gospel of Christ with me and you know for the listeners just understand that It's easy for us to see people in our lives that we just kind of say to ourselves

Well, they're too far removed from the reaches of God's grace. So why bother? I'm sure so many

Christians saw me and my family and said well that guy is a Most zealous mormon i've ever met his mom's a byu professor.

His dad's a high priest his brothers are returned missionaries I mean, what's the point of sharing the gospel with a devout mormon family because they're just going to reject it, right?

I mean, that's just how we see people we see muslims or atheists or or uh, you know, jehovah's witnesses mormons

Whatever and we just say to ourselves. Well, God can't reach somebody like that. And I think that um

When I met pastor benson, I and i've talked to him about this before and and I i've just I Thank and praise

God for him that he wasn't like that that he saw me And he said here is a young man

Who does not know the grace of God revealed in Christ? Here is a young man who does not know the saving gospel

And the only thing that he needs the only thing that can save him is the gospel

It's the power of God into salvation to everyone who believes And I think it's incredible that in all of the things that he could have engaged with us in conversation

He could have you know talked about uh, the history of the mormon church He could have talked about the character of joseph smith and in all those things.

He chose to focus on the simple and beautiful and saving gospel the good news

That jesus christ died for our sins Accordance with the scriptures that he was buried and he was raised on the third day accordance with the scriptures and he laid out

The gospel for me biblically. Yeah in such a clear and beautiful way and when you read the book

It's it's one of my favorite chapters in the book where where pastor benson was his name He just lays out the gospel to us

And and you read that and it's just like well, this is so simple And that's the irony that when

I heard the gospel. I was like, well, that's too simple that that that's too easy There's got to be something more because it had been programmed in me, right?

Yeah, and he knows that it had been programmed in us. Well, it can't just be Receiving jesus by faith that it can't be jesus alone is enough.

It has to be jesus plus You know what we do and the second thing to wrap this thought up that he did was that he challenged me to read the bible

And again a very profound thing because so often when we're engaged with non -believers we're thinking of well

How can I say this right? What book can I point them to read? What article can they go to and yet pastor benson?

He had this profound understanding that the word of god was going to change me not him Not the way that he spoke things but god's word and the spirit revealed through his word was going to Change me in a way that he never could and so he pointed me right to the source and he challenged me go to the bible

Read it through the eyes of a child And I think what he meant was just saying remove your religious lenses remove

All the things that you've been taught by your your leaders and your parents and just allow god through his word to show you truth

And of course that reading of the word of god is ultimately what led me to salvation.

No, that's awesome, man I appreciate you sharing that I want to maybe I remember like reading Listening I would say to the auto book and the way that you narrated was great because it felt like you really put the drama

That conversation in so I don't want to give everything away because you definitely I want to tell you you need to get the book

Passport to heaven. Yeah, you can get it. I believe on amazon or you can get them on audible Uh, there's a lot of different ways you can get the book

But the one thing that came to mind when I heard you narrate on audible the conversation you had with this pastor

Was uh romans chapter 10 where paul says brother in my heart's desire And my prayer to god is for their salvation for I testified to them that they have a zeal for god

But not in accordance with knowledge for not knowing about god's righteousness and seeking to establish their own

They did not subject themselves to the righteousness of god For christ is the end of the law of righteousness to everyone who believes

I think like one other thing that's peculiar is that when all the times i've had interaction with with uh,

With mormons or anyone who's in who believes in mormonism is they there's a real struggle With the simplicity of the gospel.

I mean, in fact, i'm thinking you like you right now dan you're wearing a cross Would you have ever worn that in your 27 years as a mormon, right?

So they're this it's a huge stumbling block the simplicity of it. But could you just briefly

Kind of put the mind bring people into the mindset that you had As a mormon as you're hearing the simplicity of the gospel for the very first time

I mean you would say that this passage in roman tens will be indicative of the mindset that you have but just What was your knee -jerk reaction as his pastor is presenting

That just bring us into that a little bit into that conversation Yeah, one of the funny things and and uh, great things about writing

The book was that I I put the reader in the mind of myself in the moment, right? So it's not like me looking back on my experience with pastor benson

It's actually me as a mormon missionary in that moment And so the narrative voice takes on that tone and I really wanted to accurately portray

What I was going through right and and through each one of these experiences and I also wanted to be as respectful and genuine as possible

I don't want to Misrepresent the mormon church. I don't want to do anything that would remove, you know, the integrity of myself or ministry

I I just wanted to be accurate and how these things these things played out and you're right my my response to the gospel

Was that what it was it was foolishness to me and and I think about this About paul's uh declaration of the corinthians in first corinthians 118 the message of the cross

Is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of god

And even as missionaries we would and dan probably remembers this. I mean we really used to mock the idea of grace the

Evangelical, you know, whatever you want to call it biblical idea of unmerited favor We would we would mock that and and we would say that that's it's cheap grace, right that born again christians they just want to say that they're saved by grace because they don't want to have to Be accountable for their actions and so they can just go off and live for sin and indulge in every desire of the flesh um not recognizing, you know what it truly means to be

Transformed by the gospel to be born again to become a new creation in christ the old passes away the new comes and so I I was listening to this and It was weird like I was

I was kind of tugged between two worlds, right? I was being torn between There's something amazing about what he's saying, right?

Because he's proclaiming to me the depth of god's love for me in a way that i've always wanted, right?

I I just pined my whole life to have god's love to know god's love and to love him in return

And hear this pastor saying god's love for you is so much greater than you could ever imagine This love was demonstrated in christ that he's done it all he's paid in full

The penalty that you owe to god because of your sin and if you believe in him you can have The guarantee of your eternal life.

I mean that that's the greatest message in the universe, right? Yeah, but then at the same time i'm being pulled the other way going.

Well, that's too simple It's contradictory to everything that i've taught it It here's the thing that that I struggled with most and not just in that meeting with this pastor

But really throughout my whole mission And that was removing myself from the equation of my own salvation and What I mean by that is

I wanted to and and and took pride in Believing that god was loving me and was going to save me because of me because that was special Yeah, yeah because I was doing something more than what somebody else was doing

I was giving all of my heart and putting all of my effort Into serving god through the church and and I should be rewarded for that and I wanted to believe that I was on a higher plane because of what

I was offering god through my faithfulness to his commandments and of course God changed my heart.

I mean that was one of the biggest Uh and most challenging things for me to face was was the reality of my own sin to actually recognize that I am dead in my sins and I am dead in my trespasses and there is no amount of good works or laws or ordinances that is ever going to bring me alive and yet That is why god sent christ to die for my sins so that I could be made alive together with christ by grace

You have been saved And um, and so I just remember I didn't want to hear the gospel, but I was drawn to it at the same time

It was kind of this weird paradox that was going on in my own heart If I could ask you a question really fast that I know are two different angles that I would think mormonism has a really difficult time understanding um

You just talked about your experience of kind of redefining yourself and your relationship with christ

I think two avenues in which mormonism Really needs to get some clarification on is something that you just expressed that you are literally dead in your sins

And I think you know, jerry was just asking me like would you ever would you have ever wore a cross before?

And even if mormonism did i'm not going to say they had an issue with the cross But it was more just that cliche comment of you know

If if jesus died on an electric chair, would you would you wear a symbol of that around your neck? You know what?

I mean, but I think mormonism does not understand two things number one

Who are you and are you righteous or are you dead in your sins? Have you failed or are you in the progress of succeeding?

I think that's the first point and the second point is The relationship to christ and what he is offering to you meaning is he offering you a chance?

Or did he really mean it when he said it is done? It's finished And that's what that's what the entire celebration was about Is that it was actually done on the cross?

There was nothing else that was needed beyond that point And so the question I have for you with all of that in mind

And I know that a lot of christians are going to be wanting to ask you this the same thing is What what was the first step?

to Opening your heart to this new gospel. Was it that you began to understand that you were dead in your sins?

Or was it that jesus was actually offering you more than you thought he was?

Because when I was on my mission one of my main arguments, which again is just so so abysmally silly

The more I think about it now, but anytime anybody would come to me and say you're i'm saved by grace You know what?

I mean? I would say if you're saved by grace and if that's all we have to do why isn't the bible just one page? Of just say hey everybody just say that you're saved and then that's it

Right. And so what? Like talk me through this process. Did you have to get broken down first and understand?

I am really not doing anything towards my salvation. It's that bad or Did did the gospel have to get presented to you in a way that?

There was more being offered to you and that kind of opens your heart into saying he's actually doing a lot more than I thought

He would Well, that was very well articulated and i'll say that is one of the best questions.

I think i've ever had. Um I love that. I would the simple answer is that it was a combination of both kind of in parallel with each other okay, so when

I Began reading the bible because of this baptist pastor's challenge My mindset at that time was not something in my life needs to change

It wasn't that there's truth here that I don't already know And certainly there was no part of my heart that wanted to leave mormonism.

I that was not my intent It wasn't like I have doubts. Therefore i'm going to read the bible. Yeah, right.

I I was not that type of mormon I never had those doubts which again is it's a testament to god's sovereignty in drawing me unto himself

It was not I wasn't seeking god outside of mormonism, but god through his word drew me outside of mormonism so I think that um to articulate those those two elements, right so you have the

Recognition there's there's the bad news and the good news is kind of what we say, right? So you've got the bad news, which is that you are a fallen sinful destitute person

Who is dead in your sins and trespasses and who has no hope based on your own righteousness or merits to establish righteousness with god

That is the bad news And then of course the good news is that god's love for humanity was so Great and and so vast that he sent jesus christ to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross to tell us die

It is it is finished, right? So there was nothing left to be done by the individual it was done by the finished and completed work of christ and so I think that I and when you read the book you

I hope I did a good job of taking people through this journey Um as I was going through this process because it really was both kind of simultaneously

I think that there were times I was really it was really the message of love, right? I mean if I really had to break it down, it was the message of love that changed my life

I mean the gospel is a gospel of love It is that god loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish

But have eternal life So it was understanding that god's love for me was so much greater than I had ever known or given him credit for as a mormon and Simultaneously recognizing why that love was so great the love was so great because I was a sinner.

I was not a good person. I did not deserve Eternal life. I could not prove my worthiness to god.

I deserved death I deserved hell the wages of sin is death and in recognizing that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god

Right was that that first process and then the second process was but we are justified by his grace

As a gift through the redemption that is in christ jesus And so I think that actually more of the process

Was really kind of being drawn to the gospel message until the very end And it was at the very end that I recognized why the gospel message was so significant why it was so powerful why there was so much gravity within that truth and it was because I was

I was a sinful wretch and and it was like I have this experience in the book where I recognize like I am destined for The wrath of god like that's what

I deserve. And in fact, it's this awakening in me where I realize I'm, like a false teacher.

I'm I'm a false, you know, i'm teaching a false gospel. I'm avowing a false christ I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I'm going around trying to convince people that this Church and this religion and this set of laws and works is going to justify them before god

And in fact i'm putting them under spiritual bondage leading them away from the truth and hope and salvation that are found in jesus alone and it actually stemmed back to a conversation

I had with this man named pastor shaw and he's the first kind of Person that god put in my life as a mormon missionary and he looked me straight in the eyes

And he said he said you were like saul of tarsus And he's told me the story of saul of tarsus and he said although you are now as saul

You will one day be as paul And that came back to my mind at the end of my mission and I recognized he was right

I was like saul. I was sincere in my zeal, but I was ignorant to the righteousness of god in christ

And in fact all the things that I was doing believing that they were serving god I was actually fighting against the very god.

I was claiming to serve and I and I I had this genuine fear uh this genuine uncertainty, um as to You know whether I could stand right with god

And then that was when god took all of the scriptures and all of the verses and all of the 12 times

I read the new testament throughout the course of my mormon mission to to show me This is why you need christ.

But guess what christ is here and he loves you and he died for you And there it was and recognizing that everything had been done by christ and that although I was a sinful wretch

That the blood of jesus christ could cleanse me that I could be Clothed in the righteousness of him and his his his perfection could be imputed to me by faith and I could stand before god and not

Fear or have that uncertainty as to whether or not I had done enough because it was never about me doing enough

It was about me trusting in what jesus had done for me Yeah, just jumping back in I think it was interesting too in the book how when you first met up with the first pastor when he was just starting to say some things that kind of Cut you to the heart

And especially when he said that you were an enemy of the cross and I remember just being amused even prior to that When you were just kind of going through The way you would tell your testimony and it was interesting hearing the story because it reminded me of like you would do the same thing as well too

With talking that pastor and how it didn't phase him Like nothing that you did with your every single tactic and you and you thought i'm gonna get this guy

And nothing was phasing him and say like what's going on like he's got this herd immunity going on yeah but But here he is when he when he gets to the point where he just tells you you're preaching the false gospel and you're you're

An enemy of the cross. I mean you you took incredible offense to that but it's like all these

Years later on the mission like later on the book when you're coming to the realization towards the end and you can definitely

We can definitely impact part of that and you'll talk more about it in the book But it's almost that what you initially took in offense um and anger you eventually then received then in brokenness in a contrite heart when god was really showing you like the reality of just How vain your righteousness was

I mean all that you were you're talking about how you thought that every single thing that you were looking for Was confined within the mormon church and then it seems to me

There was just this paradigm that you're probably struggling with like how can it be outside the church Because I I think also in the book you're talking about how you're almost sort of wanting to follow jesus even

In the way that you were living out as a mormon missionary because you'd started something while you're on a mission called the love movement

And can you talk just a little bit about that bring people just a little bit into that aspect of the story That was really fascinating for me yeah, so I was in a

I was in a unique predicament as a mormon missionary because I was going through the process of Becoming born again, right?

I mean it was I was I was working out my salvation in fear and trembling It wasn't this instantaneous moment.

It was a very gradual And difficult process so i'm reading the bible 12 times

I'm reading the new testament 12 times as a mormon missionary and of course as god's word is pouring over me

It's beginning to make a change in my heart in my mind It's it's affecting my actions the things that I do my motivation

And my focus is all of a sudden shifting from mormonism from the prophet from the church from the authority to jesus and the bible and so Because of my zeal

I was naturally I was put into a position of leadership Throughout my mission and so here

I am. I'm a leader I'm, one of the most well -respected missionaries in our mission, I would say and now i'm in this process of you know

God drawing me into the this relationship with him that is outside of the church

And so, um, i'm curious really fast. Were you an ap or did you go up to zone leader? I was a zone leader like very early on about four months into my mission.

Okay, and uh, and and I never made it to ap and I think it's because uh, There began to be a gulf that kind of formed between my mission president and I because of my approach to missionary work

And I talk about this in the book Yeah, there there was this this split that happened with with you know as a zone leader

I was like well We need to focus on jesus and we need to focus on the bible and we need to focus on faith and grace

And you know over here my my mission president and I love him But he's a very institutional man, right?

It's very much. Well, this is the authority of the church This is what we're supposed to do These are the you know things that we need to emphasize and focus on and it was a very regimented type of approach

More of a sales pitch than it was like well We need to be doing this out of love And so love was really becoming the motivator for me and it should be right right christians

I mean love is the motivator for good works. We love god because he first loved us and so do everything that we do out of love as paul said to the corinthians and so You know if we don't have that love if we're not loving one another as christ has loved us

Then we're not fulfilling our purpose in the body of christ and so That love was beginning to come to become the impetus for why

I wanted to go out and talk to people I wanted to show them jesus and I wanted to tell them about what I was reading in the bible and I wanted to You know encourage my missionary peers with with the these incredible truths that god was pouring into my heart

Through the holy spirit and and it kind of caused this this love movement as it's called in the book and it was it was basically

You know that where I was his own leader and I was influencing these missionaries and we were having these gatherings

I was focusing on jesus on love the bible and and it was pretty cool because it took fire

Like it was amazing how hungry these missionaries were for that, right? And it's like they were like me where they had kind of been looking for something their whole lives and it was like all of a

Sudden what here's this amazing thing go to the new testament go to the word of god, you know And let's make jesus the focus and faith and love and serving one another

And all these things and all of a sudden it kind of lit a fire amongst many of the missionaries And unfortunately, it wasn't the direction that my mission president wanted to go who is my spiritual authority at the time

And it uh, you know ultimately came to an impasse Yeah, just real quickly just because not every single person listening in as a former, uh missionary

I mean, we got obviously you and dan. Yeah, but uh the difference between ap and zone leader

Can you guys just define that real quick for anyone who doesn't know? Yeah, I can do that really fast. Um, so I I think you even talked about this in melissa daughtry's interview

Um because she asked about what what were kind of the aspects of the mission um

So there's so you served in orlando, florida I served in jacksonville, florida.

So florida. I don't know if there's a third mission But as you described all the mission boundaries are geologic

Geographically, uh bordered and so with every single border there's a mission president for every one mission president

There's two assistants to the presidents. That's what an ap is. That is another 21 year old, uh boy.

There's just another missionary um under those two aps or assistants to the president

Uh, you could have anywhere between what 12 and 20 zone leaders um, and under those zone leaders

You could have district leaders and then under those district leaders You have the basic companionship of a senior and junior which is the two missionaries that you just see if they don't have leadership

And so the question that I was asking him is you know, he was going over that he was getting into leadership Um, you were getting into leadership four months into your mission, which is in a lot of aspects insane.

Um And it just goes to show what type of mormon you were, you know Anybody that's that's asking the question of was he really devout that he really believed it

Well, I mean you you certainly believed it enough to get into leadership and then also believed it enough to challenge a baptist

You know pastor and so but that's kind of the hierarchy that he was describing is that you know, i'm

I would unfortunately have to say that there is some leadership that missionaries will have some pride into That micah and I definitely would have loved when you get that letter or that call that says hey

You're being called four months into your mission as a zone leader or as a district leader or whatever

You're like, oh I must be doing something, right? I must be doing something that is We we might not say better than the rest

But we're doing something that is setting us apart and so more pride gets involved and more

Or is the word of thinking that god specifically is is looking in and giving you a specialized favor versus someone else.

Yeah And so, um anything else you'd want to add micah? Oh, that's great I mean, that's how I saw it too when when

I was called to be a zone leader I thought well that's that's favor and it's a result of my Dedication to god and it's amazing

Again, you'll read this in the book though how god had to humble me um, you know even to remove me from a position of leadership to to Put my heart to where it was focused on christ alone and not on the adulation of men

And and it's something that you know I think so many of us have to go through is you know God gives grace the humble beat opposes the proud and and and and even in my heart

I was proud because I was I was Seeking god's favor through what I was contributing to that relationship rather than trusting fully um in in jesus and and coming to god humbly and so um, yeah, but it's a very structured system in the mormon church and uh, and it was and I'll just say this like I want people to know that like we don't

I like i'm not mocking mormon missionaries. It's like I This experience to me was it it was the greatest experience of my life because it's where Uh christ met me right and and so in in all of the things that I hold on to and know and love in my life

I mean coming to saving faith in christ. That is the only thing that matters in the end

And uh, and and I loved the experience. It was challenging um, and so when

I see these mormon missionaries I I just I want to love them and I want to share truth with them and I want to do for them what?

People did for me what that pastor benson did for me And I want to plant seeds of the gospel in their hearts and lives and it's actually been incredible um, my book has only been out for a week and one of the things that I said because one of the claims that you know

People are always going to say when you write a book is that you're trying to get rich and let me tell you Uh, you got to sell a lot of copies of a book to make any

But one of the things I said if somebody number one can't afford a book or they're a latter -day saint Then I will send you a book for free anywhere anytime anywhere in the world that that will be my policy forever

And just even just before I got on this program I had a mormon mission another one I've had five now that have reached out to me personally facebook messenger and say because of restrictions on my phone

I can't order your book But i'm really interested in your testimony. And so even just before we started this program uh,

I was uh getting the information from a young latter -day saint missionary who wants to read the book and so i've already sent several

Of them out and and that's my heart is that they'll read this and go This is what i've been looking for my whole life and it's not about um, it's not about what's

Why mormonism is so wrong? It's just once you know the the sufficiency of what's found in christ I mean everything else pales in comparison, right?

It doesn't matter it falls away and you go. I don't need mormonism I I need christ and and you start to see things in such a different light

And so that's my hope for any missionary or any, you know, non -saved person To to come to when they read this book

Yeah, one of the things I really appreciated too As well mike is that you really kind of showed the real

Human aspect you really showed the humanity behind your fellow friends who were missionaries as well too that you were serving alongside of because I think

Many times that when it comes to the world of apologetics, especially countercult ministries

There's this aspect where you just sort of want to Meet up with the missionaries to refute them and prove them wrong, you know and i'm i'm guilty of that too and I mean

I had my younger sort of like cage stage days of just wanting to kind of Get my get my apologetics sort out and start swinging back and forth

But I I think one of the things people need to realize is that You know These are real these are real people who have real families with unique backgrounds who are from different areas

And they're going through their own challenges I mean a lot of you might be talking with a missionary and they might Be struggling with a lot of loneliness like they're genuinely homesick or they miss their family or I mean they're obviously you want to be able to Not compromise on the truth

But you also even walter martin said when you're talking with a cultist that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against the

Principalities and powers and so you need to realize that Your your fight is not against them personally, right?

You want to be able to? Have it your issue is their theology And the theology that doesn't favor theology that does yeah, but I really appreciate about that aspect

So yeah, maybe could you also just talk about did you guys have any thoughts as well? I want to echo that real quick because that's

I'm, not done with the the audio book yet I'm, very close But the theme that i've been hearing of what's helped me with is when you're looking at someone who's the the mormon missionary, right?

I think we need to look at an aspect of these are people that are starving for the gospel Right and if christians aren't preaching to them the gospel and love they're going to keep trying to get

Uh closer to god by their own works and it's never going to satisfy them, right?

Only jesus the true jesus of scripture can bring that status the satisfaction instead these people

It's like they're just drinking poison, right? They're deceived and they think that whatever it is that they're doing is going to get them closer and closer, but it's spiritually decaying them

Right and if christians aren't going out there and preaching the gospel to these people Who who is like when you look at the mormon missionary on the street when we look at them?

we need to see that these are people that need to know the true jesus and they're Starving for it because they're they're zealous in many aspects and they put christians to shame

In many aspects of how they go out there and they live gung ho for what they believe in But deep down inside they don't have the spirit of god.

They don't have peace with god and they're still working for it Yeah, and if we know the truth and we have the answer

Why would we hold back, you know, are we scared of what the gospel can do or are we only worried about ourselves?

You know, yeah, it's a it's a sad thing and I think the theme micah that i've been getting throughout the book is there's a purpose

I think that god has in your life in terms of equipping you to help christians look at this culture of people in a different way

And say look this is the quote This this is a group of people I can go reach out to with the gospel To look at them is not like we were saying we need to separate them from their their doctrine

They're deceived. We need to separate them from joseph smith and not be angry at the person

But instead speak the truth and love to them exactly to bring them the answer Like what are we doing if we're not doing that?

I think your book is going to put You know in many christians, it's going to bring a burden to their heart that they should have had since 1833

You know what? I mean? Like that's I don't know. That's that's how it is that's how i've been seeing it and something to add to that is um,

I know that there were a lot of um, Members of our audience on cultish that were asking.

I there was a big resounding repeating question of What is the advice for reaching out to mormons?

How should I talk to them? It feels like i'm talking to a brick wall um, I I could immediately say i'm sure micah would feel the same about this is that when you

You've got to realize that these missionaries are I don't want to not necessarily saying forced But they are being put on the front lines of a battle.

That's not theirs to fight Hmm, they they were in a mormon bubble just like micah was

Um, just like I was And this may be the first opportunity that they're taken out of that bubble.

Wow that they don't have Uh mom and dad to rely on they don't have uh, you know, the bishop that is just a phone call away

You know what? I mean if they want to speak to their mission president That's something they can probably schedule But what i'm getting at is that this is a great opportunity

To love them to spend time with them as this pastor did with you

And to not antagonize them or to treat them as if they are the liars

It's that they are the sheep that are being deceived. They're not the wolves And so when you take it into that aspect and you remember that these are image bearers of god and they needed it just as much as Micah and myself did me too, you know and any other person that came to christianity that it's not any different You know, they do wear a badge and but this is kind of something that's been placed upon them.

And so just remember that it Micah I honestly couldn't say it any better than you did is just remember the simplicity of the gospel

And the best way you can teach it is to teach it in a way that you want to be taught

Yeah, and to remember that You know, there's a lot of questions these boys are having in their minds

There's a lot of doubts that they have in their mind that they will probably never share with you and um, but the best way to get to that point to get past the brick wall is to love them first Let them know what the gospel is actually offering them

And spend a little bit more time On the things that they might be missing but take it take the antagonism

Out if that makes sense, you know I mean sometimes they'll get a little feisty and that that might happen when your worldview is getting, you know attacked but just remember that uh,

That god is going to be the one that changes them And take your take yourself out of that another beautiful beautiful thing that you had said

Micah in your book is that You kind of separated yourself away from your family and you and your wife just kind of moved and one of the reasons you did that is to To kind of get yourself out of the picture and let god work on your family just as much as he worked on you

Is there anything you want to elaborate with that? well, first of all, I just like all three of you, uh, like I'm almost in tears over here

No, like for real. I mean One of the biggest challenges that we have at our ministry is is getting people to understand

Why we should reach out to mormon people. Yeah, and how to reach out to them and and and so often it's people engage mormons because they want to win an argument or they want to prove that you know, what they know is more or better and and so Often we're not seeing them as people who need to be loved to the truth and the reason why it almost brings me to tears is because You know i've been there and I think about the very very very few people that god put in my life the very few people that were obedient to their call in christ to Speak the truth in love and to have a ready defense for the hope that lies within us but to do so with gentleness and respect and and to Remember the impact that that made on my life when

I was a mormon missionary and I was unsaved and and how critical that is When I was writing this book

I wanted to paint a picture of mormon missionaries to where somebody would say I love those people

And I hope that's the way you guys like that's amazing Humanity the reality of the emotions of the experiences of the humor of the immaturity of the homesickness and all the things that I dealt with and experienced and to say like We need to stop seeing them as as enemies

We need to see them as as people who are captive and they need to be set free and we need to see them with compassion and not with self -righteousness

Um, but with the truth and and I just appreciate each one of you reiterating that to your audience.

Um, A lot of people say well, so you obviously wrote this book for mormons. And I mean, yes, obviously

I hope that mormons pick this book up and read it but honestly, like I think that the greater audience for this is is are christians

Yeah, so that they will be equipped to know the way in which we are to minister and it's not just to the mormon people

Um, we're called to witness to all people the same way and that is to speak the truth and love whether it's mormons

Whether it's jehovah's witnesses whether it's atheists muslims. I mean whatever I remember going to I was speaking at a conference with sean mcdowell and he opened his whole thing

By saying if you came here to gain ammunition Uh to win an argument against a skeptic then you came to the wrong place

And I remember how much that impacted me and I like and of course then I listened Well, what is he going to say and and just his approach and everything that we do and say and the reason behind it

Right that love movement that I had as a mormon missionary like that should be our heart as christians all the time

Right love should be the motivator as to why we speak truth and do so in love and and like dan said

But we have to open our mouths. We have to share the gospel I mean paul said woe to me if I don't preach the gospel like he had this driving force that took him

To his own death because he knew the value Of the gospel message that it was the power of god and to salvation to everyone who believes to the jew first and then to the greek

And and romans 10 we were quoting that earlier But if you keep going, you know It says that faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of christ, right?

How are they to hear unless someone preaches to them? And so we as christians we kind of think well That's people's job that are in ministry that are missionaries that are pastors and yet we all have

That same commission and that is to go out into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all of creation

And that means the mormon missionaries and it does mean that god can save them And change them and that's the beauty of the gospel message

And me and dan and so many other people are evidence of the power of the word of god to change lives.

Amen No, that that's awesome man, in fact one of the other questions I had, um, you know, just just regards to your book is uh,

You had talked about well actually early jumping back to earlier you had You have this love movement

Where you're you're in the process where god is really drawing you to yourself You were challenged by the baptist pastor and you're reading through the new testament multiple multiple times and surely but slowly you began to sort

Of live that out with being what was the position? It's a just zone leader zone leader

Okay. Oh, I said district. I had the same idea. Um, so You're in the process where you're starting to live that out.

Can you just give us some examples of how How was reading the new testament and following the teachings of jesus or just really having this new perspective?

Give us some examples of how you live began to live that out as his own leader and also give some examples of how that became a conflict for Your mission president because that was very interesting just give us some examples of that of what you talked about in the book

Yeah, so I I kind of went as I was sorting things doctrinally out in my head.

I was beginning to kind of Understand things a little bit more tangibly, right? So so before I truly kind of doctrinally understood the gospel

I was trying to live out what I was reading in scripture and so even just like the the matter of like like like loving loving one another like what does that mean like how do we

Selflessly Love and serve other people right to the point where it even comes at the cost of our own comfort

Right of the things that we like and and and that's what agape love is, right? That's what I was learning to to understand is agape love

What does that mean? And of course that ultimate expression of agape love was christ Offering his own life as the sacrificial offering for the sin of the world

And so I began to to take that, you know As as my driving force for why

I was doing the things that I was doing In fact one of them there's a story in the book where I experienced four hurricanes as a mormon missionary.

Um, It was pretty amazing. It was in a record -breaking year in 2004 and 2005 In florida and the fourth hurricane after the hurricane decimated our area

We were commissioned by our mission president to keep our white shirts and ties on and to go out or that's what we were supposed

To be doing and I remember just feeling like I can't do that Like I can't go try to convert people to mormonism while I know that people are suffering and so I basically

Commissioned to our zone as a zone leader to about 20 missionaries. I said don't put on your white shirts and ties

Um, just go out drive to neighborhoods and just serve people just love people find out what they need

And and serve them in the way that they need to be served And um, and and we did that and in fact, um just days after When I was at a meeting with my mormon leader with my mission president.

He actually rebuked me I I took this story out of the book, but he actually rebuked me Um for the time that I was spending doing service and told me that that was not our job.

That was not our responsibility um, but ours was to proselytize and uh, it just It was you know

It was just one of many things that god was using to begin to open my eyes And so that was more of a practical application of the gospel than it was really a doctrinal

You know point that brought me to truth, but it it was an important part of my own uh coming to truth was was recognizing

What it meant to to serve and and one of the themes that I was reading throughout the new testament That stood in stark contrast to what

I was seeing right from mormonism was In the bible, you know, jesus is is talking about service often and he talks about the greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Right is is the one that that serves and the one that loves And I see the leaders of the mormon church and I see that when they walk into a room everybody stands up right and it's like They're treated like celebrities like gods almost.

Oh my gosh Right, yeah exactly and there was this reverential awe given to these humans and yet biblically,

I mean it was so Antithetical to what the call is is as christians and that is like love.

I mean jesus Had the greatest form of condescension ever by by by, you know coming down from his throne and and being made lower than the angels of heaven and was obedient to the point of death on a cross and that he did that for us and that that was the the the service in which we are then to emulate to take that agape love and to lay down our lives for the sake of the

Gospel to lay down our lives for the sake that others may come to know the fullness of god's love revealed in christ jesus and and uh,

I just it totally shifted my perspective even just as a person like what is leadership leadership is not

The one who is bossing everybody around leadership is is to serve it is to love is is to follow that example

That jesus himself established and uh, and it just it changed the way that I approach missionary work and it ultimately, you know led to me

And having to confront my my leadership because of that change that they were visibly noticing in my life wow,

I think and I think too you just totally described the difference between what uh, Being a true servant of of god is versus like serving to obtain godhood

Yeah, right like it it there's that that crossroads where there's christian servitude and then there's servitude of an idol

You eventually want to you eventually mimic the idol itself, you know instead of mimicking christ in his ultimate humility

Yeah, like you just explained in philippians, too. I think that was a beautiful uh juxtaposition between the difference between you know

Lds servanthood where you serve up into a point and then everything everyone else serve it serves you even your spirit children in a sense

Whereas christian servitude is we're we're we are our goal is to glorify god and enjoy him forever, right?

Not not use christ as a stepping stone, but he's actually the cornerstone and foundation of our faith and everything

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I love that I love to see that lived out by the apostle paul I think he's kind of the the ultimate example, right the quintessential example of of servitude and What he gave to the church and all the sacrifices that he made and even you know to the point of financing his own ministry

You know through tent making right so that he could Lovingly bring truth to others and that's kind of become the way that the ministry that i'm a part of adam's road that that In fact paul what he says in first corinthians 15

What then is my reward that in preaching the gospel I can offer it free of charge so as to not make full use of my right, you know in the gospel and and to just take that as like our standard to You know, um, the grace came to us freely and we want to give the gospel freely and that that's been you know

That's been our example for how we approach ministry. Wow No, that's a big thing.

And then uh, do you have anything you want to add dan? Seems like it's just it's interesting just watching this conversation just because I know your whole story

So it's almost like mike i'm hearing you're i'm hearing you tell your vantage point Well, I listened to the audible book.

I felt like I said I finished it up today Uh passport to heaven definitely check out the book, but then as i'm listening to it

Like like i'm listening having known dan personally and him being local here and being a good friend

It's almost like i'm hearing your story and like i'm like paralleling it with What?

With dan with your experience So just any other thoughts too with what micah has thought so far.

I mean thinking about especially how they lived out Their mission again, they're sincere

You know, they're they're human they're they're they're in the spirit of god Just like the right and just like the rest of us who need to know the true jesus christ of scripture but like what comparisons would you identify just with what mike is saying in my story, especially just in regards to the necessity of Duty of getting the numbers.

I mean you've talked about it before but is there anything specifically? Mike was talking about in the last segment that kind of struck a chord with you

Well, the first thing that came to my mind is when I served in the area that I was in the most which was stark uh again, he was out in florida in a different area at a different time period but Uh, we got hit with hurricanes and there was a part member family

Which means one person was a member the other person which was a spouse was not a member of the church So those were some of my higher targets that I would go spend time with Uh, my mission president did not like me

Because my mission the first year was go doorknock go proselyte go get numbers charted down in your daily journal um, go get lessons go get baptismal invites and The the family that I was reaching out to this part member family hurricane happened in a tree

Completely chopped their house, uh chopped the edge of their house off And if they were home it took out their master bedroom

And so if they were home and if that happened at night, they would be gone, right? So they show up the church

Which these are very old school traditional family. Um, even though she was a part member.

She was still attending church with him um, and they came to church in jeans and regular clothes and that was kind of weird for us because we're in monkey suits shirt

And you know what I mean And so we reached out to them found out what was going on and for a solid week

I was over at their house with my companion Uh chopping wood and chopping these trees and getting them out of the way and my numbers were atrocious

To the point that my zone leaders were screaming at me. I was getting calls from i'm not screaming You know what I mean? But they're like, what are you doing?

You're the district leader You know what I mean? Because i'm a district leader. There are certain missionaries They answer to me.

I answer to the zone leaders the zone leaders answer to the aps or assistants the president's and then those To the president, right?

And so when you're getting a direct phone call from the president, you're doing something wrong, right, right? and so this is probably something that micah can resound with but you know with my exodus out of the lds faith the thing that I think

I have So graciously been able to abandon Is what

I would define as transactional Doctrine where I do this god does that?

um, I do this and I bribe god to be better than he is or I am

My blessings are 1000 % contingent on my obedience if I am not perfect if I don't do this certain thing,

I mean micah, you and I both are aware of the The word of wisdom that they build off of a lot of that say all of the blessings that god can give you

Are contingent Upon the commandments Or the obedience that is relevant to it

So if you want the blessing of health, you should be obeying the word of wisdom If you want the blessing of such and such you should be already doing what you could be doing

Anyways to be able to achieve that and so in my mission there was just You know, we had this book called the white handbook or the white bible is what we called it

Really what it was is the missionary handbook that discussed the rules and obedience things that you're supposed to do Wake up at 6 30 go to bed at 10 30 be proselyting everywhere in between there unless you're taking lunch or meeting with people and My mission took that steps further

They said skip your lunch. They said don't go Um to members houses to eat dinner only sit down and eat dinner with people if you're teaching somebody

They changed rules that said uh a lesson is counted as Being 15 minutes to 30 minutes sitting down with somebody and my mission president changed that to said if you could go over two bullet points at the door

Then that is counted as a lesson and so the numbers were just insane we were

We had some nights with aps that said we want 200 baptismal invites tonight And the only thing we could do is literally our my zone leaders came to me because I was the district leader

Forced us to go to walmart and we're just reaching people coming to their cars And saying will you be baptized?

Do you know about joseph smith? Have you heard about the book of mormon? They say no get away from me That conversation alone just that five seconds.

I could jot down as a baptismal invite and continue Wow, and so that that's not that's not the gospel.

That's not anything. You know what I mean? And so just just micah talking about the idea and The nerve and I mean this in a very good way the nerve to say

We're not going to do that We're going to take our ties off And we're going to go do what the savior would do the savior washed the apostles feet

And we're out here, you know taking care of people in the time that they need And that you know, and even though we're talking about the things that we did on our mission as we were missionaries

That doesn't change when the table switches, right? We're now christians So this this aspect of we get we get so addicted to the

I want to win the argument or This guy is an embodiment of a cult or they're mimicking or aping christianity in a way that offends me

We start making them the target of that and that aspect is what pushes them away so much and so that that love and everything that mike was talking about about his mission and the hurricanes and arguments with the president and direct phone calls with the president, it's just I wish you could see my face mike.

I know, you know, we'll we'll be able to look over this later But i'm just sitting there being like oh my gosh

I know exactly what that feels like and and jeremiah is just sitting here smiling at me every time I change directions in my seat

Because it's just giving me flashbacks every 30 seconds So this has been really good.

Yeah Yeah, definitely a similar experience. Uh, one of the things I also want to talk about too mike unless you had any other thoughts is um

We talked about just a little before the episode is that One of the aspects of even when we started cultish has been like just a huge burden is

Not just the world of the kingdom of the cults, but typically what I would call the ex -cultist

Who typically will deconstruct? Well, you have a very unique story that you talk about in your book I believe that by god's grace you fell out of mormonism, but into A safety net the ultimate safety net.

I believe your while your story is amazing It's it's a it's indicative of a minority of situations of people who typically will leave a cult

Or a destructive cult in many different aspects. And so the majority of people who would be in a situation like yourself

Would typically end up atheist or agnostic in fact like I did Yeah, and I think like and that's one of the things i've genuinely struggled with when

I mean when you talk about Researching different cults are doing research. I mean, this is what I do So it's it's it's just part of what comes with a job.

I think one of the biggest honestly challenges for me Is to listen to podcasts of people who leave

A group like like mormonism like that. I think it's mormon stories is one of the podcasts that is pretty popular out there

I think I just checked it out because there's that recent that girl who was the influencer who left the church Remember her name hallie yeah, so she was uh, yeah, she's local here and um, and so I was listening to As much of the five -hour conversation as I could and her story is unique but I think the majority if you just scroll down and look at the other interviews i've listened to several of them before the majority of people who are on there typically are atheist agnostic or now they just don't really believe in anything and there's just this like this

Emptiness that just void and i've seen it with Many different other groups and that was one of my big drives and motivations.

I remember back Uh watching uh, lee remney scientology the aftermath and just seeing these people in the wake of devastation and Just people that like trying to pick up the pieces like leaving that so all that being said micah for anyone

You know, there's a huge I'm sure there are people there'd be people who would read up your book pick up your book and read it but for anyone who's

Had whether it's leaving mormonism, but they don't really have a point of reference Uh, or or anything or or a similar story like that Could you speak to them for a moment because I think that that's a huge That's a really

Huge mission field because it isn't just the world of cults, which is the mission field next door But it's the people who have left but don't have any point of reference who are still trying to pick up the pieces

What would you say to them? Yeah Uh, I would agree with that observation.

I think that the overwhelming majority of people who leave Religious systems like mormonism end up going into secular humanism or agnosticism or even atheism um, and I think so much of that is rooted in the reasons why they leave and so This actually is is an important thing as to our ministry's approach to say the mormon people

And that's that the reason why people leave generally is because there's so much information available now, right?

So as you mentioned mormon stories So you have all these people you can go and you can you can dig up the history of the mormon church

You can dig up the character of joseph smith and you begin to see that these things don't add up, right?

And so all of a sudden the foundation of people's religious system. It just crumbles beneath them.

The problem Is that they have nothing to replace it with as you mentioned. I had a safety net

I I like that, you know, and the way I see it is as I was being deconstructed from my understanding of mormonism

And the reasons why it was true I was being rebuilt simultaneously on the rock of jesus christ because of the word of god

So I wasn't leaving mormonism because I I I investigated Elements of mormonism that caused me to recognize that it was false

It was actually the reading of the bible alone where I began to see The dichotomy between the biblical gospel and the mormon gospel and and I recognized

Uh, there was a difference So I would speak to the people and say this We have to recognize that that don't the the first thing is to not make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bath water just because Mormonism painted a picture of god of jesus even of the bible of truth

It doesn't mean that that was an accurate representation and just because those things aren't true

It doesn't mean that there is not a true version of them and of course for me, it was going to the bible right and number one,

I didn't have to go through that process of investigating the archaeological evidence and historical evidence of the bible and the

Manuscription all that stuff because I god planted in me to believe that but if people want to do that You can certainly do it and I would challenge you to if you question the validity of the bible

Uh, go ahead and look at some james white debates or some other things There's some great information out there about why the bible is trustworthy

The other thing is just to approach the word of god and just don't worry about what you've been taught in mormonism Or or any other ism don't worry about the things that you

Learned and just go to the bible and and read it and and allow god to show you truth because you're not coming to truth

That is institutional you're coming to truth that is eternal Right, and it's the difference between when

I got baptized as a christian. I was baptized into christ I was not baptized into an organization.

I wasn't baptized into a religion that all of a sudden now Right. I had power and authority over me.

I was baptized because I was a follower of jesus and so my encouragement is

I'd love for you to read the book and i'd love for you to see The process that god brought me through as to why

I never gave up Jesus christ and never gave up my faith in god and that god eventually through his word rebuilt

The entire fabric of my faith on jesus christ alone and why you can find sufficiency in christ

The other thing is that you will never find Satisfaction in the world you will never be satisfied

And have sufficiency in anything that the world can offer you those things will only be temporal

And they will only be temporary Jesus said I am the bread of life Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst and so My testimony and the testimony of the word of god is that jesus offers us something that nothing and nobody else can no relationship uh, no, no

Job, no amount of money or or wealth or fame or anything in the world can give you that will eternally satisfy you that can only be found in Jesus christ alone and my encouragement is to go to the word of god approach the new testament in particular through the eyes of a

Child and allow god to reveal truth No, that's that's huge. I really appreciate you saying that mike and I think um, you know

One of the things that walter martin said is that the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original um, and so I would yeah,

I would just say that if you're listening to this if you're ex -woman if you're if you're just Think through what mike has to say and don't take our word for it

In the same way that the pastor, uh challenged mike to take up the bible and take up the new testament Just read it as it is

And and just uh, and yeah, just read through don't take our word for it Take take what we're saying and test it by what?

What is revealed in the new testament for sure? Um, one other question I had unless you guys do you guys have any other questions just real quick any other thoughts about that or um

I think the only very short thing that I would say is that when micah had just stated Uh go to christ for the living water

Um that you will never thirst any longer Um, I really hope that any lds member that hears that recognizes

That this was the young pharisee that was doing everything that he should have been doing

Doing everything right and he still had a void So resemble that to going to water that does not give you that feeling that does not allow you to never thirst any longer, so if you feel that you're in a situation that you are

Doing everything right you're doing everything you should be doing of course, you know normal mistakes here and there because nobody's perfect But if you feel unfulfilled if you do not feel safe In the gospel that you're in right now, then that is not the correct gospel

And when christ says you will never thirst any longer that is exactly what micah is talking about It's the idea that we are not

And of course, we're not saying mormonism is a hundred percent pharisaic You know what? I mean because there are mormons out there that will say we don't believe we're saved by our works we don't believe we're earning our salvation, but At the end of the day you still feel like you're participating in something

And so I just want you to realize that when you believe that you are doing something with christ

You are saying that it was not finished yet when christ said it was finished And you are saying that mormonism is giving you some water that you have to repetitively go to Every single time you're feeling this void, but it never fills that void

And so focus on that look at that inside of yourselves and see if you have something to relate to No, that's

I appreciate that man. That's huge. Um, one of the other things I just want to ask you micah, too Is that you know, what's a lot of people are asking too about how to interact with our lds friends and neighbors

I mean we do outreach and we've even done outreach on to local mormon wards and had some amazing conversations

One of the things i've observed Is that you mentioned you I was just thinking I remember all those hurricanes back in 2004

And you just being this is was a huge part of your life. I have noticed since my first interactions in the early

No, the late 90s. I'm, not that old but still a little bit young but uh There seems to be in the last 20 somewhat years last two decades this huge post -modern shift

Within mormonism. I remember micah my classmates they would go up to me and just straight up They would bring up the first vision and would talk about the great apostasy

And how i'm wrong i'm an apostate i'm a gentile and we have the truth and you don't we have the authority and the power of the priesthood and it seems to me there's just been this huge post -modern shift where They really have almost emulated a

Pontius Pilate like what is truth? Just in regards to the fact that say oh, you know, you're okay

You know you have your truth. I have mine We can all kind of work together with what we have in common And it's almost that now

I have to use their own testimony against them like take them to joseph smith history

About what he says about all the different churches. They're all corrupt. They're all an abomination god sight, you know taking them to the original

Claim that joseph smith had in his first vision But and I think about it too. You mentioned that at the time when you're on a mission trip

They was like gordon b. Heakley was the president. I think that It happened when he was on 60 minutes

I believe it was and he was asked whether or not you believe you can become a god and and Gordon b. Hinkley said well, that's just a deep doctrine.

We don't know too much about I think that was one of the big catalysts We're just really becoming

Post -modern really being subjective even with a definitive doctrine So, I don't know maybe give me your thoughts about that.

And then also what would like how do you reach them now? Does that make sense when i'm asking like my i'm just i'm a little bit of a network processor

That's been my analysis the last 20 years of interacting with the lds. What are your thoughts on that? I I think that's completely accurate.

I I the church has definitely made a very concerted and deliberate effort Over the last 20 years or so to immerse themselves into modern christianity

Um to to appear more evangelical in their approach to try to be christ -centered

Although they're still not really christ -centered, but they want to give that appearance um, and I agree

I think But I feel like when I was a when I was a mormon even and on my mission I felt like we were very deliberate about this is why we're different and now it's this is why we're the same 100 and so when my especially when my parents joined the church in the 1970s

I mean it was like yeah We want to distinguish ourselves from evangelical christianity because we want a reason for people to see why we're unique Yeah, right and this is why we're we're unique and that's that we are the restored church

We are the true church that jesus established during his earthly ministry. We are the exclusive, you know

Holders of that particular authority and priesthood and only through the laws and ordinances of this religious institution

Can you have eternal life in the presence of god? I mean it's like something that they were proud about and and and rightfully so if they were true so now it seems to be more of a shift into trying to kind of Be more ecumenical and and and kind of remove themselves from that which separates them from Mainstream christianity and they're trying to appear part of it.

And and honestly, they're they're very effective in doing So I mean their whole right they've changed their their official website.

It's now come unto christ .org Uh, i've seen these new pamphlets and new

You know things that they're handing out in videos that are just they're they're very jesus centered They've got a picture of the christus statue on it, you know

And it's and it's like you would never even know that it's that it's mormon until you really do the research and The problem is is that evangelicals and christians in general are are

Not themselves equipped in the word of god to be able to recognize that mormonism is propagating a false gospel

And we have i'm not going to give names. We have very prominent uh evangelicals right now that are publicly saying

That mormons and and christians believe in the same jesus Yeah, and and they're partnering with them and and you know working together and collaborating with them on on massive projects

That have an influence over millions upon millions of people and and I would just say that doesn't help

Uh the situation because one of the things that we run into is a ministry We travel all over north america every year and there are a lot of christians who are simply ignorant

To what mormonism is and what it teaches and of course, we're not going to you know We're not going to sensationalize mormonism

But we want to be honest and show people that it does teach a different gospel As paul warns us against in galatians chapter one that if anyone comes to you preaching another gospel

Let him be accursed and it is another gospel. It is not the saving gospel found in the word of god

And so we need to do a better job like we christians need to be more equipped Um to to do so and to and to draw that line in the sand and I think that that's something

I really respect looking back now You talked about hindsight is 2020 and of course in the moment it hurt but both pastor shaw and pastor benson

They very clearly told me we're not on the same side here We're not serving the same jesus, but you know here is here is truth

Go investigate it for yourself And although that was a very painful thing for me to hear at that time And I vehemently defended the fact that I was serving and avowing the true biblical jesus

I obviously came to realize that it wasn't and um, and that's an important distinction to make

No, that's huge that's huge you guys have any other thoughts as well too It's just there's just so much man.

I feel like the The lds person that you speak now to nowadays We've had many conversations.

Like you said we do go to the wards We go every other weekend to wards out here and we lovingly preach the gospel to them

We want them to come and get into conversations with us so we can you know Tell them the truth about jesus and how they can be saved and more often than not we just see that There's an aura of massive spiritual deception going on within the spirit of mormonism because in second corinthians 11 verse 4

These people are getting baptized into a different spirit a different gospel through a different jesus, right?

So there's there's a cloud there's something there And it's almost agnosticism in itself in itself when you have this conversation with them

It's like your truth is your truth. My truth is my truth and it's It doesn't surprise me that when people leave

The lds religion they go to atheism or agnosticism because they're functionally that thing not already

Like one thing we got to understand as christians, you know, like in roman romans One paints clearly paul says there's people in christ and there's people out of christ

And we want you to be in christ regardless of the ism like I I love that you said the isms Earlier michael, we got to understand that there's people that don't have peace with god

Right, and they're trying to make it up themselves regardless of what they say the belief regardless of how sincere they are or Zealous they are

I think the beautiful thing about being a christian is we have the objective truth to know that guess what? I know in your heart that you don't have peace with god

And here's the answer So to break through any of those things in terms of having the conversation like you were saying jerry

How do we reach them? Well, we reach them by preaching to them the truth of the gospel It's just in terms of speaking to the lds person today

You almost have to you say this all the time jerry you got to convert them to mormonism Before you convert them to christianity because in a sense they're not standing on the standard that they support

Yeah, right. You got to make them come right to conflict with actually joseph smith's claims joseph smith

You don't even agree with your prophet right now, which is great I don't want you to agree with your prophet But you need to at least stand on the standard that you say you do.

Oh for sure It is funny too. Yeah, mike even like i'm thinking about right now, you know We all have this amazing technology and iphones and and all this way we can we can distribute and communicate with data

But even the pre -iphone era we saw the postmodern shift take place It began to take place where we ended up having to bring

A backpack with all these different lds resources with a quad and everything, you know Weighing 20 to 30 pounds, you know out when we do evangelism and even jeff would jokingly say now

He equates some of his back problems arthritis to having to carry out this giant backpack full of stuff. Yeah But it's very interesting

I think one of the different aspects too is that I think that the current state of the mormon church you give me your thoughts on this too

Mike is that I think they're in a very interesting predicament with The postmodern shift you can give me your thoughts as we wrap up here.

I think that They've become incredibly postmodern at least the official organization has

I think there's a huge Disconnect between the leadership and the gen z tiktok generation of today.

It's just that I feel I feel like I have my own challenges trying to understand the younger world just being 40.

I can only imagine what these What these like quorum of the 12, you know these guys who are in their 90s, you know

Trying to connect with the masses in today's technological age and along with that postmodern shift and even sort of that Corporation mentality just given the financial juggernaut that mormonism is

And I think as as mormonism becomes more liberal and more progressive And more postmodern there's going to be these fundamentalists who are not happy with how the church is originated almost

Wanting some sort of like restoration of the restoration almost like this weird Vicious karmic cycle that they want to achieve.

So I think as it becomes more Progressive and postmodern that is going to fragment and there's going to be the subsex where it's just You could just have any sort of charismatic leader come in a younger guy

And start a whole another movement in and of themselves saying well the main church is apostatized. What's to stop them?

They're trying to do what joseph smith did Back in the 1800s. What do you think of that? I I think that's that's could very well be what happens.

Um It's a challenge for the church, honestly when you see the direction of the current generation, right?

It's very progressive And and and what's happening i'm seeing even people on facebook like faithful temple going latter -day saints

You know posting pride parade stuff, you know, and so it's a very different um

It's a different church than it was even 20 years ago And I think they're having to navigate that we can see throughout the church's history

That they will eventually always succumb to cultural pressure, right? We saw that with polygamy

We saw it with blacks in the priesthood, you know, and now we're going to see it too You're going to you're going to see some some major paradigm shifts within the church

As they begin to succumb to some of these cultural pressures and I think that you're right I think there are going to be people

Who are more fundamental in their theology who are going to see that as as really an apostasy within the church

And but we've already seen that we saw that with polygamy, right? I mean polygamy was taught by joseph smith taught by brigham young.

It was practiced It was eternal doctrine and then when the church sees doing it there were there were tons of of splinter groups that broke off from the church because they were taught and believed that Polygamy was part of you know, eternal doctrine and was necessary for the highest level of the celestial kingdom

In fact, the lead singer of our group adam's road. Lila lebaron She is from the lebaron community in northern mexico, which is one of those groups that split off They follow polygamy and they follow the book of mormon, but they believe that the modern latter -day saint church is an apostasy uh, right of the truth and and rightfully so I think they're adhering to mormon doctrine definitely much more accurately than the the mainstream mormon church is and so but ultimately like I kind of want to like bring the the focus and the shift back to this so like absolutely

All these things like what's the point of all these things? Well, the point is that mormon people they need the gospel.

They need truth and they need salvation And it's easy to get distracted by the things that can't save them

And we forget to give them the thing that can save them and that's the gospel And so our ministry our focus has never been

Let's bring people out of mormonism our our ministry has been let's point people to the word of god and let's bring them to a relationship with christ because Ultimately to know the true god and to know the true jesus and to know the true gospel is revealed in the true word of god

It's going to bring them out of mormonism in fact My parents were were some of those people that tried to stay in the church

After they had come to saving faith in christ because they thought they could reform it within and that very quickly Didn't work and i've heard of a lot of people that do the same thing

But you know john 10 jesus is our good shepherd and when we know his voice Uh, then we follow him and we recognize the voice of those, you know

Who are not our true shepherd and and I think that eventually, you know, you can't serve two masters You cannot be under the law and grace and once that you know, new wine is placed in old wine skins

It's going to burst and so Our focus is the gospel and i'm not saying that we can't address these other things to get people thinking

But ultimately we always want to bring it back to to jesus in the word of god and the gospel um so that they don't drift off into You know secular humanism and into the world and honestly, that's a whole different Uh animal to deal with and and in some ways is even more challenging

Um, you know ministry than reaching, you know people who are in workspace righteousness. And so I just encourage christians out there, you know

When we engage with the mormon people make sure that the gospel is always the focus It's okay to address other things but make sure that it always comes back to what christ did for them

And the reconciliation that we have to god through the finished work of jesus alone Well, awesome.

I think that's a perfect way to wrap it up. Uh, just real quickly I know we've mentioned your book a couple of times.

Uh Passport to heaven to heaven. I keep on saying I keep on wanting to say pathway. I don't know why passport to heaven and I know you can get on audible or you can get on amazon and the other places if anyone wants to Kind of get in touch with you.

Do you have a central? Content hub for where people can find you more about what you do with your ministry. Where can they find you?

Yeah, so you can just go to adamsroadministry .com or just google adams road and uh,

Everything relating to our ministries there and even my personal emails there if you want to reach out to me Okay.

All right. Fantastic. Well, we appreciate you coming on micah and I You're gonna I heard that you're gonna be going out on the road again soon

Yes next week we're gonna be out on the road for four months wow, that's fantastic. Well godspeed to you brother again

Thank you again so much for taking the time to come on And uh, yeah, we would uh, we definitely wish you the best with all your endeavors and we'll definitely be in touch

And who knows maybe we'll have a follow -up sometime but until then, uh, we'll look forward to uh,