News Roundup: Grove City, NAE, SBC

Conversations That Matter

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Conversations That Matter Podcast, I'm your host John Harris. We are gonna talk about a number of things, number of things to get to, we're gonna go fast, but I'm gonna give you the information you need.

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I know many of you, you're working, you don't have time to read some of these articles, and so I'm gonna give you what you need to know about social justice infiltration into evangelical organizations, denominations, et cetera.

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We're gonna talk SBC, we're gonna talk Grove City College, and a few other things. So let's start with Grove City.

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Grove City College is not a particularly prominent or large school. It's, why should we care, right?

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That's something I've addressed before on this podcast. And the reason is because there have been efforts made at Grove City that seem to have produced results far more than efforts made at other schools.

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And I use Southeastern usually as an example. Southeastern, there's been a whole lot of exposure of what's happened at Southeastern. There's been a lot of pressure applied within the

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SBC, at least the conservatives who have some influence have tried to apply pressure on Southeastern.

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There is no making Southeastern budge. They can go underground with their social justice teaching, they can minimize it, they can deny it, but you're not gonna get the board to do anything at Southeastern, right?

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And we've seen this show play out at other institutions. Grove City's different because I think

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Grove City's more independent, it's smaller, and you still have a board that's more conservative.

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And so there's more of an opportunity to create some movement there.

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And then from that momentum, go to other schools and do kind of the same thing, expose how they've allowed

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CRT or social justice teaching. And now Grove City College's reaction among the administration was so typical and so predictable for anyone who's been watching this stuff at other places that it shouldn't surprise anyone.

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But unfortunately, a lot of parents and a lot of students even don't seem to, they don't see it.

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And I think that's muddying the waters, denying some of these charges, even though there's no real reason to, just playing follow the leader.

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These are tactics that are generally used, whining and dining people who might have a problem, marginalizing those you can't manipulate.

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A lot of this stuff was pulled out. And I mean, it was full PR mode.

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Now, I've been following this story since, I guess, last fall, and you had Josh Abattoi, American reformer, you had

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Megan Basham, The Daily Wire, both kind of being, I guess, larger voices or,

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I don't know, leading the charge in some ways. There was a parent petition, but then from that came some media attention, in the conservative media at least, to do something about this.

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And I'm gonna read this article without reinventing the wheel and giving you everything I've already said about Grove City. In fact, there's a montage which you can find.

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I'll put the link in the info section. I'll try to remember to do that, of some of the teachings in chapel that were out there.

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But it went so far beyond that, what was happening, what was allowed at Grove City. Now, we're downstream from this, and some of that context is gonna be given in this particular article from The Federalist by Josh Abattoi.

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Now, here's the article. Despite opposition from parents and board members, Grove City College doubles down on woke educators.

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Not a shock, not a shock at all. In fact, I said the last time, I think we talked about Grove City, that, hey, we're gonna have to see what actually happens.

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The board has made a decision. That doesn't mean it'll be carried out. And it doesn't sound like it really was.

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So here's what Josh Abattoi has to say. Few institutions of higher learning can match Grove City College's legacy of conservatism and independence.

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During the Reagan Revolution, the college famously sued the Department of Education over government overreach and walked away from federal funding to safeguard its self -determination.

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I think they did this, they don't accept federal funding, and neither does Hillsdale. They might be the only two.

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Today, Grove City's official bulletin declares that the college unapologetically advocates preservation of America's religious, political, and economic heritage of individual freedom and responsibility.

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So he goes through some preliminary things. Now, he says this, the woke programming has made its way into chapel, the classroom, and the dorms at Grove City College.

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For months, concerned parents tried to sound the alarm. When those concerns fell on deaf ears, they banded together, launched an online petition, and spread the word on social media.

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After the administration stonewalled, current and former faculty issued a letter to the school's board of trustees asking them to intervene.

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In response, the board took the unprecedented step of establishing a committee to investigate CRT and mission grift. Its subsequent report is a sterling example of conviction and clarity.

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And we read this on the show. The board reaffirmed the college's conservative legacy and denounced CRT as incompatible with the college's mission.

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It further detailed exactly how CRT had made inroads, gave a clear instruction to President McNulty, Paul McNulty, on how to remediate matters.

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So conservatives cheered. And I was one of the ones that said, this is great. We'll see what happens though. I always had that in there. I said, we'll see what happens.

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Four months after the board issued its report, the results are in and they aren't pretty. In contrast to the board's unambiguous posture and clear directives, the college's administration appears less assured in Grove City College's identity and more concerned with not rocking the boat.

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And I would say this was, the proof was in the pudding. From the beginning of this whole process, you could see

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President McNulty was circling the wagons. He was denying things that were obvious. He was either incompetent to lead or not the kind of person you want leading because he's not honest.

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And unfortunately, he got prominent people at Grove City, like Carl Truman, to help circle the wagons with him. And it's embarrassing, frankly.

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If you're a Grover, this should be embarrassing. In contrast to the board's unambiguous posture, okay,

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I read that. But Grove City's President Paul McNulty expressed a conflicted view of the situation in recent reflections on the

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Grove City College, or the CRT controversy. He said, I worry that our polarization is extended to the point where I don't know how we come out of it.

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It seems to be much different than the past. Students come in seeing themselves as culture warriors. They see everything through that lens.

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Where McNulty lacks resolve, his provost, Peter Frank, lacks confidence. In a recent video, Frank stipulated that it is hard to explain what makes

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Grove City special, but it has something to do with how Grove City College balances the conflict between free enterprise and the common good, a remarkable admission from the

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Chief Academic Officer of Freedoms College. In short, Grove City's constituency and its board want a bold counter -cultural institution, but key administrators appear hesitant.

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And that's exactly, this is what's happened at other places. Now, usually the board, especially in SBC circles, where I'm the most familiar, the board is unfortunately picked by really the party, you know, for lack of a better term.

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They are, you're not gonna get really a lot of accountability from the boards. But parents certainly have a stake in this.

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And it's, if you get the ring around the rosy, you just cannot get straight answers. You can't, it's, you're just frustrated by the end of it.

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There's no way to keep these institutions really accountable, it seems. Grove City has been a different story.

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Same tactics might be employed here, but you actually have a board that did try to do something about it, and maybe they'll try in the future.

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It says, perhaps reservations among top administrators account for the dearth of personal change. Every single member of the cast of characters who brought

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CRT into the school will be returning. Don Opitz, Justin Jose, Christopher Merrick, and actually,

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I remember his talk. He gave a CRT -like chapel talk in Disparage Grove City on a student -run podcast.

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Yeah, I remember that. And a faculty in the Education Department who approved and taught CRT -infused courses.

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Okay, so they're all coming back. No one was fired. No one, you know, with pressure, sought employment elsewhere.

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They're all coming back. Talks about a professor here, let's see, that is retiring, but there's no, who is responsible for defending

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CRT, but there's no evidence that his retirement is because he's being forced out or anything. A competent administration, it says, should have realized the risk inherent in the professor's return.

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Okay. With nothing to lose, he could, because they're giving him, I guess, he has a year before he's retired, so now he has nothing to lose, and so this is the worst way to handle that.

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If you have someone who's against the mission of the school according to the board, and now you're just giving them a year before they're retired to do whatever they want and say whatever they want and oppose the school's mission, then great job, guys, you know?

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There's another professor here who, actually, I remember this professor from the montage, you go,

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Cedric Lewis, you'll go into the link in the info section, you can watch clips from his talk on CRT, but he apparently did, he opposed the board and at the college, and I guess he's got some kind of a background where he wouldn't pass the smell test in a legal setting.

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Wait, hold on, let me, after the board released its report, Cedric Lewis took to Twitter to tell his story, stating the board exhibited a disturbing bias in their interviews, which were conducted by a committee, including two sitting federal judges, so he says, sorry, he said that they wouldn't pass the smell test in a legal setting, even though they have two federal judges on their board, and then he does these interviews with Religion News Service, Insider, Higher Ed, the

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Young Turks, can you get more communist? The Young Turks and Grove City alum, and, oh, are

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Grove City alumni turned progressive activists in terrorism? So he goes to, basically what the article is saying is, this professor,

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Lewis, goes to these left -wing outlets, even secular left -wing outlets, and then he dumps on Grove City College, all right, and so, and he apparently has some background in law that he was,

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Lewis was disbarred in Florida for failing to cooperate with an investigation into whether he mishandled client funds, apparently, so I don't know what that's all about, but the stories in the

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Federalist, if you're curious about more information. Now, what does Lewis get for all, you know, you'd think this guy's getting fired, right, this guy should at least be intimidated, right, that, like, or a little afraid, careful in what he says, careful because he's on thin ice, nope, he does whatever he wants, says whatever he wants, opposes the board, and for all this, he is promoted.

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He was promoted to Assistant Professor of Entrepreneurship. So, the administration promotes one of the most outspoken voices against the board.

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This is not going to bode well, and I don't know in what direction. I don't know if the administration wins this or if the board fires

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McNulty and some of these other folks. I don't know how that all would work, but this is, it's pretty crazy to me that the board, or the board is so disrespected and the administration thinks they can just thumb their nose.

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It's not surprising in the sense that this is the kind of thing that happens, but it's, you'd think they'd be a little more just secretive about it, a little more,

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I don't know, not as overt, but here we go. So, doesn't look like any significant action has really been taken, and if anything, the needle is still being pushed to the left even after the board said what they did.

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Now, let's talk about the SBC a little bit.

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Let's see, what, well, let's talk about, now, we'll save that for last. We'll talk about the

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National Association of Evangelicals just put out a report on the impacts of climate change on poverty.

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Now, that's right, the National Association of Evangelicals, supposed to be a more conservative theological organization.

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The PCA just pulled out, probably for good reason, but they put out this statement, and it's just, oh, it just reads like a

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Christianity Today or a Gospel Coalition article. At the Association of Evangelicals, we believe that the good news of Jesus encompasses all of life and empowers us to face the deepest challenges.

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NAE President Walter Kim said, we wish to navigate the complexities of our times, including climate change, with biblical clarity and a deep love that reflects

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God's own heart for this world, especially for those least able to enjoy its blessings. So it's just accepted.

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Climate change, that narrative, it's just accepted. There's no skepticism about it or anything.

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And then they have a number of quotes here from Dorothy Borse, I think that's how you pronounce her name, professor of biology at Gordon College.

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Borse said, climate change can be confusing in the media, but it is an issue that cannot be ignored. We labored to present a clear, well -supported document that can help

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Christian leaders, laypersons, understand the science and how disruptions in the environment affect the poor and our role as stewards of God's creation.

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Then they have, wow, the CEO of World Relief even got in here. We have firsthand experience, Meryl Greene says, working with people facing the devastating effects of climate change.

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That's right, they see it on the ground. They see the climate change and what it's doing. We have learned that if we want to be a catalyst for change that lasts, we have to address the root causes of poverty and not just offer temporary solutions.

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Climate change is one of the greatest injustices of our time, that's right. Because people living in vulnerable communities experience the devastation brought on by the way people living in wealthier countries live our lives.

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As Christians, our love for the least of these compels us to acknowledge how our actions have contributed to climate change. So again,

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Christians bear the guilt. Christians are in trouble. We've done this, it's our affluence. I would love to see which, you know,

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China versus United States. What country is polluting the world more? So is this, are we gonna make an anti -China? I doubt that's part of this document.

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The whole goal here is it is, it is Christians in the Western world, particularly the

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United States, who are guilty for, you know, this horrible thing. And so that statement has come out and we may,

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I'm thinking about doing a deeper dive here, downloading the full report.

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Well, it looks like there's a paywall there. But going through this piece by piece. If that's something that you're interested in, put your thoughts in the info section and we'll go down the climate change, global warming path here.

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And we'll talk about this. There's even, in this particular document, advice for Christians on what they ought to be investing in as far as their financial investments and things like that.

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So it affects every area of your life, really. If you're responsible for the, you know, your driving habits and your investment habits and all the other things you do that contribute to supposedly climate change, it's, this could really change the way that you live.

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And so I think it is important. And that's, I just want to let really more report on this than examine it.

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But that's what's happening at the National Association of Evangelicals. Amazing. We have

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Christianity Today. This has been on my list for a little while, but August 22nd, they put out an article. Don't run for school board.

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Education is important, but the answer lies in family discipleship, not culture wars. I think everyone's going to be nauseated if we actually read the article.

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So let's just analyze the premise here that's in the title. That's a false dichotomy.

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You can do both things. You can actually do family discipleship and fight a culture war at the same time, that you aren't mutually exclusive.

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You can run for school board and disciple your family. Right? This is insane that this kind of stuff actually works on some

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Christians, that this is in Christianity Today, that this logic is worth putting out there.

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The culture war instinct, it says, is to respond to this passage.

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They read a passage here from C .S. Lewis' 1946 book called,

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How Heathen is Britain? And he answered in no small part because of the content of, and the case for Christianity are not put before most school boys under the present system.

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It's accounting for why it's heathen. And Lewis did not go on to recommend a political agenda though.

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And so because he didn't go on to recommend a political agenda, it says that the culture war instinct is to respond to Lewis with a new battle plan.

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So the school boards aren't enough. We need to control the school administration too. Then we can put a Christian teacher in a Christian curriculum in every public classroom in America.

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Then finally we'll turn all this around. Hey, that sounds good, doesn't it? I mean, it's. Now, look,

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I think why not just eliminate the federally funded public schools? Like why is that even, that's not constitutional.

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Why do we have it? But hey, if we're gonna, this is the whole allergy that some evangelicals have to power.

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They wanna ingratiate themselves to power, but they don't wanna be at the head for some reason. They don't know what to do with that.

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But besides being politically impossible, constitutionally impermissible, and oblivious to the fact that many public school teachers and board members are

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Christians, this is only an escalated version of the same fundamental mistake, a larger iteration of the futility of many schemes for education that Lewis described.

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So if many school board members are already Christians, then why not add some more? Wouldn't that be good salt and light? This is insane,

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Christianity Today. This is insane. Okay, let's take the wind out of the sails of people who actually wanna do something to change what's happening out there.

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Christianity Today is, I mean, I don't know what else to say. This is garbage that this journal would even publish this kind of thing.

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Christians shouldn't kill Christians even on, oh, I put this up there because I just happened to go to the Christianity website and I was like, oh, there's an anti -death penalty article.

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We could probably spend all day on the Christianity Today website and we're not gonna do that. So this is, oh man.

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Evangelical report, creation care is an act of worship and hospitality. So this is Christianity Today's covering of what

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I just read you from the National Association of Evangelicals. All right, let's talk about some other things here.

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I'm gonna end with SBC stuff. I'm just gonna, two things that I've wanted to mention that aren't really related to the rest of this podcast, but I just wanted to convey it to you.

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US life expectancy down three years and two years according to Brownstone Institute. Now, you're gonna have to go check this out.

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I probably can't put the link in the info section. What you probably initially are thinking is most of you, the article suggests is not correct.

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It might not be the thing you're considering would be the, to attribute this to, it's the reaction to it.

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It's the reaction to the thing that you're probably considering. The ailment that may have brought about this state of affairs may not be the thing that actually is bringing about this state of affairs.

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It's the reaction to that ailment. And I'm gonna leave it there, check it out. And then

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I just wanna let you know about this. It's in Ireland, but we had, I had interviewed

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Enoch Burke a while ago on a book he wrote about Christian hedonism. And this is in Ireland local news.

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A secondary school has secured a temporary high court injunction preventing a teacher who opposes addressing a student with the pronoun they from attending.

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It's premises or from teaching. This is gonna be coming to the United States. I don't know any other way around it with the logic that we've employed here.

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Enoch Burke is, you know, basically he's barred from doing his job. It's just, and this is happening in Ireland.

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I mean, Christians are being shut out of certain industries. That's basically what's happening. All right,

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SBC related stuff. So we're gonna start. I just wanted to let you know,

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I have it on my phone, so I'm reading it, but Jay Atkins from the, we played a clip of his recently on the

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Caringwell type stuff, the Me Too type stuff. Anyhow, he's with a,

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I would say, more progressively minded Baptist outlet, SBC Voices.

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And he posted this thing on Twitter on the 23rd about how the SBC 23 kickoff event was a resounding success.

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Close to 400 came out to participate. And he thanks their host, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, and Bart Barber, and Daniel Dickard, and the

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SBC executive committee staff, and et cetera. So when you do an event like this, when you're preparing for a big event like the

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SBC, and you get all these volunteers together, and you do the training, these are people that some of them, otherwise, might not even be attending an

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SBC convention, but now they're working the convention, they have to come. You have 400 people here. These are just people to work the convention.

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And one of the things that, someone messaged me this, and basically just, it's an SBC insider, who basically said this, look, this is what the conservatives are up against.

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You have the other side with the levers at their disposal to put what volunteers they wanna put in to these places.

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They have momentum, and they have optimism, and all of that, because they are able to bring their team to the field.

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Whereas the other side, what does Conservative Baptist Network have that's comparable, right? This is part of the hump that would have to be overcome to take back the

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SBC. And it's just one little example of that, that I wanna show you, because there's so many ways in which you can kind of bring your team to the field, and make sure that it's being paid for by SBC co -operative program money, and that kind of thing.

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This is just one of those ways that that kind of thing can happen. All right, so I wanna end with this.

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Let's talk about Will McCraney. Will McCraney, as some of you may know, is in a lawsuit right now with the

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North American Mission Board, and I'm gonna end with this interview. So this is the final thing for this podcast is interview with Will McCraney.

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I hope that you enjoy it, and it's helpful for those of you in the Southern Baptist Convention, and hopefully you find some encouragement in it.

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We're talking about the Southern Baptist Convention, and there's really two main things that I talk about when it comes to the

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SBC. One is the corruption, and one is, and probably I've spent more time on this, but social justice infiltration.

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And I think personally that the greatest opportunity to expose what's happening in the

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Southern Baptist Convention, particularly the North American Mission Board, but we know that each of these entities, all they're intertwined with each other, is the case that Will McCraney has brought against the

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North American Mission Board. Now, we've talked about this before. We're gonna talk about it some more today.

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And so thank you, Will, for joining me once again to give us an update on the progress in your case.

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Yeah, good to be with you, John. So why don't we remind everyone first about what this is about, because you were fired from the

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Maryland -Delaware Convention, essentially, and your lawsuit is alleging what?

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We have complaints in the area of defamation and in just basically what's called tortious interference or interference with employment.

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And so we believe that Kevin not only helped orchestrate my termination, but then he continued to blackball me and to blacklist me after that particular, after even

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I was fired from the Maryland Convention. And so that's what the case is about those primarily, those two things.

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And Kevin Eazell, for those who don't know, would be the president of the North American Mission Board. And of course, you, after having left there, were hurt, or he tried to hurt you at least by damaging your reputation, which is something that he could do of anyone else.

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Now, you were not actually technically part, you were part of the Maryland -Delaware, right?

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Which is a separate entity, at least at that time it was separate, right? Correct? Yeah, whatever confusion is there for people, help us alleviate that.

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Okay, all Baptist bodies are fully independent and autonomous. And so we worked in some joint efforts and similar efforts.

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I mean, North American Mission Board obviously worked in North America, which would include Maryland -Delaware, right? But we actually, the

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Maryland -Delaware Convention was formed in 1836, and there was not even a Southern Baptist Convention until 1845, and NAM didn't exist till what, 1997 or something.

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So we were fully autonomous, self -governing, self -supporting, self -propagating organization, disconnected from NAM.

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We don't have any responsibilities toward NAM in terms of reporting to them. They weren't involved in my hiring.

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They couldn't set policies. We didn't have joint trustees, any of those kinds of things, joint finances, any of those kinds of things.

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So a fully separate organization. And despite that, Kevin Eazell wasn't your boss.

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He was able to work the angles, get you fired, and all the rest.

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And so that's part of the complaint here is that it's none of his business to put it in the vernacular. Okay.

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So we've talked about this before and we're downstream from it. And you're at the point now where it looks like depositions are, well, have they already, what's happened?

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Where are you at as far as discovery? Yeah, we're in the discovery phase. The case had been on hold for quite a,

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I mean, we're, the case is over, the legal case is actually over five years old.

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And we're just now, in the last little bit, last couple of months, moving through the discovery phase. And so we've been exchanging documents.

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We've been exchanging questions that we've each got to swear to the answers to. And we've been subpoenaing certain types of evidence.

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Obviously there's limitations on that. But what will be happening in the next, maybe even later this month,

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I'm just not sure the exact dates, but we'll be moving into depositions. This is where a person who's, is put under oath and they take questions and they have to swear to the answers.

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And obviously under threat of perjury. And so this is where the North American Mission Board and I will have to testify and others will have to testify.

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And so this gets real at this point. Okay. And so that might mean major Southern Baptist leaders going to court, taking the stand, under oath, having to give testimony.

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So, I mean, what do you, I mean, the only other option for them if they want to avoid that is to settle with you.

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And it's been seven years since you've been working at this. I mean, what is your, now maybe this isn't even a question you can answer, but what is your thought on what's possibly likely going to happen and what do you want to happen?

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What do you want to see? Well, I'd love to see on a personal level, I would like to see, I think some restitution made to me.

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If on a personal level, I'd love to see there'll be reconciliation and restoration and just some repentance for what's been done.

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But the courts, once the North American Mission Board trustees didn't act, which they can still act actually,

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Kevin Ezell and the attorneys actually represent the North American Mission Board and the North American trustees and the trustees actually represent

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Southern Baptist. And so I'd love to see things get right at the

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North American Mission Board, but that's not really my responsibility. But obviously I've suffered with the blackballing and the blacklisting and I've suffered financially and professionally.

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And the sad thing about what Kevin did is not only did he do the things he did in Maryland, Delaware, is that he followed me.

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When I had a speaking engagement, for example, here in Florida, some of your listeners may know the name Jimmy Scroggins, pastor of a large church, which used to be

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First Baptist Church, West Palm Beach, but Kevin called Jimmy and we're alleging this, and I have evidence to prove it, called

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Jimmy and tried to get me off of a speaking engagement. I'm trying to provide for my family. I'm without work for years.

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I have two daughters that got married. That's always an interesting thing to have daughters get married and he's still going after me.

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And they post my picture at the North American Mission Board as if I've done something or some bad guy.

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And so I've been a professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and Evangelism and Church Planting for 11 years.

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I worked for the Far Best Convention, Master's, Doctorate. I've done all these degrees and this work and consulted with and helped

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LifeWay and the conferences and LifeWay Christian Resources and with the North American Mission Board done research.

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And so my life had been built around this. And so when he chooses to continue, not only to get me terminated in Maryland, but he also then continues to go after me later,

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I'm left with little choice except to bring this matter to the trustees, which

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I did. And then that was met with immediate denial. And then obviously they got lawyers and I didn't even have a lawyer for another 12 months.

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And because I had no intention to file a case, but they didn't handle this. But this really rests on the trustees of North American Mission Board doing their fiduciary duties.

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And we've seen this must happen. We've seen it and you and I've seen it and others of your listeners have seen this all over the country.

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When people are responsible, don't do their jobs for whatever reason that it causes problems. Well, what's the,

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I mean, we're sympathetic to your dilemma because that's life altering, of course, and devastating in some ways when you've spent years investing in something all just to have the rug pulled out from under you, from someone who wasn't even your boss, didn't even, it wasn't his business to be involved with that.

30:27

What about implications though for others? Because you're not certainly the only one that this has happened to, or the only one in a situation, maybe even currently, an

30:34

SBC entity that would be similar. And what could potentially happen to help others who might be going through something similar?

30:45

Well, obviously I get notes from different people through this whole process, this long process, and talk about some of the damages that's happened to them.

30:53

And you just got to treat people rightly and you can't do God's mission. And that's what they say they're doing at North American Mission Board.

31:00

And you can't do it and damage people and that be blessed. Of course, we know that we've got record lows in church plans, we've got historic lows in baptisms.

31:10

I mean, it's falling apart in every type of way. So you've got the strategic and mission side. And of course, the interesting thing,

31:16

John, is that's my 30 plus years of ministry connected to Baptist life.

31:22

That's what I've been involved in, in evangelism, church planting, my dissertation, my teaching, my book writing. And so I care about the mission side too, very deeply.

31:34

And then I care about the people, the various people that have been damaged. And both, those are other

31:39

Baptist bodies. And those are probably some people inside the North American Mission Board themselves. Yeah, I'm talking about the lawsuit itself though.

31:47

I mean, is this a precedent? Does this put the fear of God in SBC entities? They're like, don't do this again, don't do what you did to Will.

31:53

I mean, what's the goal that you're hoping for? Not the personal goal, but the other, if there is another goal,

32:00

I'm sure there is, to help others who might be going through something similar. Well, part of punitive damage is

32:06

I've got to win the case and the judge will make decisions about punitive damages. But what they really try to do with that, it's my understanding, is that they're trying to, when you get a conviction in something like this, that actually the judges will tend to want to send a signal to others, don't do this kind of behavior.

32:24

It's typically very hard to prove what we're trying to prove. And I believe that maybe it would give an opportunity for the

32:31

North American Mission Board and other entities to take a serious look at how they're overseeing their leaders that they hire, the trustees, and give a greater account.

32:42

And so I would hope that this would be, put a chill on this type of behavior, both at North American Mission Board and any organization that's out there, whether it's a mission organization or a church or whatever it might be.

32:58

Well, what kinds of things could be found or have been found in the discovery process that would further expose the

33:08

North American Mission Board or the SBC more broadly to a wider audience?

33:14

Because there's so many people who still trust these institutions. So how can this, because that's what

33:20

I started the program off with, is I think this is probably your best shot at exposing the corruption. So in what specific ways would that happen?

33:27

Well, that's a good question. I actually, I don't wanna, I'm gonna circle back to your question. Don't let me forget it.

33:33

But in September of 2021, I put together an article that maybe is the most complete summary of modern day corruption and lawlessness in the

33:45

SBC that's been done. And I had to speak very carefully because I need to speak the truth.

33:55

And one, I'm gonna give account to Jesus, right? And I made some pretty bold claims in there and it gets quite a number of people.

34:02

And there's just a lawlessness. I mean, you watch the federal government and it's not operating much different than the church and some of these entities.

34:10

And so one of the additional dangers, back to your specific question, John, is that the

34:16

North American Mission Board through itself and through ERLC, Russell Moore, those kinds of guys have claimed that they have rights and privileges over other

34:28

Baptist bodies and other Baptist ministers. They say they didn't complain, defame me, but they said they had the right to do it.

34:35

Well, do they have the right to do it over a Methodist, a Presbyterian, a Catholic? Do they have to do it over your pastor?

34:42

Right, right. Where do the rights end? And so they've made these, these aren't my opinion.

34:48

An employee of theirs, supposedly, but you weren't. Yeah, well, they said that they have rights, they have privileges.

34:55

And with that, there comes some legal liability. And of course, the most prominent thing out there that's going on today is some of the conversations around the sexual abuse.

35:03

Well, historically, Baptists and Southern Baptists, the Southern Baptist Convention has been able to get a summary judgment every time in these types of cases when they've been put into a case because they said, no, these churches and these associations or state conventions, these are fully autonomous.

35:20

And now you have a Southern Baptist entity saying we have rights that they, I don't believe they have, they don't have.

35:25

And they also are claiming privileges. And what that does, if you have that, and if you have the

35:31

ERLC claiming this is a hierarchy, then you have ascending and descending liability.

35:37

This has enormous ramifications. I'll just tell you what some people that are in law, not my attorney, just friends of mine that are in law, said, do

35:47

Baptists know what's at stake here? That's one particular attorney. Another attorney said, if you lose on the law side of this, not on the facts, they said this will bankrupt the

35:56

Southern Baptist Convention over these sex abuse cases because either you have rights and responsibilities, then you have liabilities.

36:04

And so we certainly are against every form of abuse and every victim of whether it's abuse of power, whether it's abuse of sexually or any other type of way, but this has enormous ramifications.

36:17

As some would say, they just keep playing with fire on this as opposed to confronting these false claims of NAM in the courts.

36:25

I mean, your listeners may or may not know because they may not have familiarity, but I won twice in the

36:31

United States Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals on this. And I won again, or they got all the way to the

36:38

United States Supreme Court and the justices actually had to give, in essence, a vote, or I don't know if it's a formal type of vote, but give where they wanted to hear the case and they each had to speak to it.

36:48

So it's made it all the way there with claims, NAM claims to the United States Supreme Court that I worked for a

36:55

Southern Baptist entity, which is utterly false. And so the ramifications of this is just enormous.

37:02

We certainly believe that there's a lot here at stake.

37:08

Well, if you win the case at the Supreme Court, that gets a lot of eyeballs on it. And that's where I think the exposure is gonna happen because you can write something that has all the information, but if people don't read it, it doesn't make a huge dent.

37:22

But if you win a case, then that's, people are gonna be very, you'll have national media, I'm sure.

37:28

Hopefully you're ready for that, but they're gonna be wanting to interview you or interview your lawyers.

37:34

And so this is a big deal. And I know it takes a chump of change to be able to continue this effort to expose.

37:43

So where can people go to support your work? Well, they can go, I have a GoFundMe page set up.

37:48

They can just look at Will McRaney under GoFundMe and the North American Mission Board, I think you can find it that way, or they can reach out to me and send me a message or they can even help.

37:59

It's a ministry that we're trying to do. I mean, obviously when I was trying to restart my potential to provide for my family and take care of these weddings and stuff with daughters and Kevin's going after me, and that just is damaging.

38:14

And so not only did I lose, not have income for four years, but obviously, as you said, the case costs quite a bit.

38:22

I'm paying out of pocket. North American Mission Board is sitting on $200 million in stocks.

38:27

They have a $500 million in assets. He said last week on a podcast, Kevin Eazell did, that we've got 200 homes that will be for a rainy day kind of fund.

38:36

I mean, they have stored and stored and stored money. They have unlimited PR, unlimited resources.

38:41

Kevin's been, he had lost a single check. And so I would certainly appreciate it. I've incurred all my,

38:47

I probably paid 85 % of my legal bills and I'm well over $100 ,000 in that now. And looking at another probably a hundred if this case goes all the way through this rest of this year.

38:58

So I'd love for your listeners to be engaged and partner with me. And if they can - What's the website?

39:05

Well, they can go to, they can do several things. They can go to willmcraney .com and find out there that there's a donate button on that, or they can either go to the

39:13

GoFundMe. But I lead an institution. I actually started a seminary, John, called the

39:18

Bullock Institute. And we have a partnership that gives a fully accredited master's degree. We're trying to revolutionize.

39:24

I won't chase too far here. Trying to revolutionize how we actually prepare ministers because we've got to stop just educating them.

39:30

We have to deal with character issues. We have to deal with skill issues and those can't be done in a classroom.

39:36

It's simply impossible. The task is you and your listeners really know, moving much more left, much more woke.

39:45

And so we're trying to have a better approach to training people. And we believe this will revolutionize actually how we train guys because what we're doing is not working.

39:59

This is acute work, actually. Yeah, well, so if you want to support Will and what he's doing, you can donate at willmccraney .com.

40:06

You can check out the Bullock Institute if you're interested in seminary and that would help him, I'm sure. And I'm glad you're doing that.

40:13

There's so many, there's such a need for it. And there are startups I'm noticing all across the country where people are trying to figure out an alternative because the,

40:23

I don't know when it's going to be. I've thought for years that the seminary model and just the higher education model in general is going to have to come crashing down.

40:30

And I'm just kind of surprised. I don't know what's keeping it together. Is it duct tape? I don't know because it's like, with the cost of education and what you're getting for it, it certainly isn't worth it most of the time.

40:42

But all right, well, I appreciate you explaining that. Anything else that I missed that you want to convey to listeners?

40:50

No, I'm just grateful for you and your ministry and people that listen and we're out there trying to engage in speaking the truth and doing what's right and represent

41:01

Christ well. And I just appreciate your support and your listeners and what they're trying to do in their churches as well.

41:08

And anything that someone can do, we certainly appreciate the prayers of the people that sustained us. And this next several months is going to be the telling factor.

41:16

And there's a lot at stake for Baptist, just generally anybody that's in the

41:21

Baptist body and other churches in one sense, because there's just limitations on what guys can do that have power and influence.

41:29

And we're trying to confront that. Yeah, I'll say closing of that, because you just sparked my mind when you said, we're trying to represent

41:36

Christ. And that's one of the things that's just heartbreaking about everything related to the slide of evangelicals into corruption and sin and just everything that's happened over, especially the last few years.

41:50

And so this is no different. This is just, I guess, embarrassing is one word that comes to mind, but how do you represent

42:01

Christ? When you're the head of the largest missions or church planning association in the whole

42:08

United States, and this is the way you treat people, other Christians, it is so, I'd be afraid on judgment day,

42:16

I guess. That's how I feel about it. But well, I appreciate it, Will, and we'll be praying for you.

42:22

And like I said, everyone, go check out willmccraney .com, check out the Bullock Institute, and God bless.

42:28

Hey, John, let me introduce one more quick thing here. Please. Let me just talk about truth.

42:34

You know, Kevin Eazell, I started reporting on this and brought it to attention maybe several years ago even, and this could be part of the wrath that's coming down on me, but Kevin Eazell took clergy penitent privilege at Highview when he was pastoring in Louisville.

42:52

And actually you have five SBC entity heads that were in Highview in the church at the time. And it was a case involving a guy there, the principal of their school, that ultimately was convicted of molesting seven boys and there were 10 different felonies.

43:10

And so why'd I even bring that up? Is because I'd been talking about that, but what's chilling is

43:17

Joni Hannigan herself, a sexual abuse survivor, some of your listeners may know

43:22

Joni. She has been a journalist for close to 40 years, just highly respected.

43:28

And so the North American Mission Board PR person, Mike Ebert, sent her a threatening text messages for writing five sentences in a 3 ,000 word article that just recounted the facts, just basic facts of what

43:44

Kevin did and what happened at Highview. And she was threatened with libel. And so when you have national entities and their leaders and their

43:52

PR people threatening journalists who are also victims themselves for trying to raise the question, should pastors take clergy penitent privilege?

44:01

We have a problem. Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of problems. We have a lot of problems.

44:07

Well, I appreciate the work you're doing. It's a big sacrifice. And I think most people aren't willing to go through it.

44:13

They rather just say, well, you know, I invested time in this particular organization, but now let me take my, whatever

44:21

I have left, I'll take and I'll go invest somewhere else because I don't want the grief. There's a lot of grief and stress and everything else that comes with fighting.

44:29

But you're a fighter and we need more fighters. So God bless you and your work and keep us updated.