Has Atheism Gone to Far with an Atheist

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you. We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible and as we say we can answer Every question that you have about God in the Bible no matter how hard it is we here have an answer for you, and if you doubt that just go to apologetics live comm and Scroll down till you see the little stream yard duck icon click on that join us.

Just remember one thing when you come up with a really hard question. I Don't know is a perfectly good answer. I Didn't say the answer would be satisfying. I just said I can answer any question you have about God in the Bible.

Let me bring in my co-host. Mr. Drew. How are you, sir?

I'm alright. I'm very tired and I think I'm getting sick. I've got the little tickle in my throat and it's just you know, I feel it coming on. So I'm hoping It doesn't doesn't get too worse than this.

All right gets I cam right away. And they don't sponsor the show, but I had some and then I have no clue what happened to it.

But I need to find it again. Yeah, go get some and that's that that works. Well If I tell my bride that you feel like you're getting sick She's gonna tell you a whole bunch of things to take. She'll be do this to this.

Masks, Neighborhood Safety, and Greg Bonson's Delusion

But before we bring our guest on and we have for folks who are regular here. Oh Tom Shepard tells you that you should just wear a mask. You know, is that to cover his face Tom?

Is is that the reason why that. That can't be. Why. Cuz I'm way too pretty to cover this up, but. So let's talk about delusion. You know that was. That was Greg Bonson's doctoral dissertation, you know.

We can talk about it. You know what I should wear a mask. I think that would very much help like it's helped the past. I don't know how many years. Yeah.

Yeah, it has helped People get sick. Actually, I was talking to my wife, you know that that you know one thing it did help this we weren't gonna do it in the new section, but I'll just. But I will say this as I commented to my bride as we went for a walk earlier today that there's some people they're basically going through the neighborhood and You know trying to break into houses.

Well, they're wearing masks as they walk down the street and years ago that would have stood out and people would have been hmm. Something doesn't look right here. Mm-hmm, and it would have been called out now.

Not so much, right? So so let's talk before we bring our guest in and for those who have been walking for a long time We'll remember this guests. Bill cluck is a gentleman who I debated in Dallas. Oh, I think over a year ago now I think it was last a year ago, November, maybe.

He probably has a better memory than I don't remember or he'll look it up before he comes in and then he'll make it look like he just knows it off the top of his head, but but we did a debate together it was his very first debate and We had kept in touch and we talked and Wanted we actually were discussing the topic we're looking at guys like Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins and the movements that they've been doing more towards saying hey, let's not go too far getting rid of Christianity altogether and and He was just mentioning, you know that, you know.

Sometimes maybe atheists have gone too far and I was like that'd be a great topic to have a discussion on especially with a guy Who professes to be an atheist and so that is what we're gonna get into tonight in a bit.

But I did want to give an update. I was out in Arizona Drew, thank you for you and Chris doing a show in my absence. I talked to Chris this week and said hey, you know, there hasn't been anything on the matter of theology podcast for a while.

Why don't you just take the episodes that the two you fill in for me? Throw that on to the feed he was like, yeah, maybe we should do that.

I told him that literally like two weeks ago. I said hey. Take this episode the one that we did on hermeneutics and I said rip it off of YouTube put it on the web on on the podcast.

Rip it off of YouTube. I can give you the the mp3. I mean you could pull it right from the website. Yeah that too, you know we could do that too. Yeah, so we we had a really good conference in Arizona we were in Vail, Arizona and The conference the the theme of the conference was Christian responsibility in an un-christian world and To me it was it was really great because this is what striving fraternity tries to do is to go into smaller churches.

You know, this was a church of I'm gonna say maybe 50 to 75 people and We had about about that at the conference but to go in there most of the people had never heard of any of the speakers before actually some of the people thought that all the speakers knew each Other for many years and were best friends, but most of the speakers met each other for the very first time at the conference.

I was the only one who knew all of the speakers and we we put this together to really encourage a local church and just to see how encouraged they were and Fired up to go out and serve Christ really. That is the goal of what striving fraternity does when we try and do these weekend seminars or conferences like this.

And so, you know pastor Jay there Jay Miller of Vail Valley Baptist Church, you know. He was like every other pastor that we we talked to and they're like, oh we can't afford it. No, we couldn't do we couldn't afford to bring in they feel bad and we try to say hey, this is what we do.

We have monthly donors that help us support us so that we can come into churches that can't afford. To have a conference type experience in their church and and do that. And so I'm very grateful I don't say it enough, but I am very grateful to all of those who donate and make that possible because this this church was just Thrilled to have us out there now with the topics I mean pastor Jay and we'll probably I made drop those releases on my Apollo on my rap report podcast.

And so the the thing that we ended up doing was pastor Jay did a topic on that we had to be watchmen on the wall. Aaron Brewster kind of brought down the house at least the the the first. The first day.

Well, actually the second day. Second topic I should say was was Dan craft and if anyone saw the pictures online Dan craft is a seven-foot apologist. Someone asked me why like literally if you saw that picture I should look for it and see if I could pull it up, but I had that picture and people asked Why.

You know, we call I called him the seven-foot apologist and I'm like cuz he's seven foot tall. And and you could see that in the pictures. Let me see if I could share this. Let's see. Do to do to do and I mean.

It was funny because one person said, you know, he really makes the rest of you look short and his response was because they are. So this is this is Dan. He looks a little bit taller than us. There's a picture of.

Here's a picture of all of us with Dan. He's a tad bit taller than all of us. That is right. Yeah, that's why he's the seven-foot apologist. Not hard to figure out folks. But he he talked on apologetics is not what you think it is.

So it was really good got people thinking about what apologetics apologetics is and isn't. Then we had oh, I forget who spoke next. Who's. I forget who started us off in the morning? But I know that just before lunch.

Oh I know who is John Sampson pastor John Sampson. John Sampson Basically challenged us on what you know, whether we're truly Christians. What faith is. That people could be false converts. He also addressed the issue of evangelism.

It's Christian responsibility in a non-christian world. Well, we have an a responsibility to evangelize. Aaron talked about our responsibility in our worship and. And Drew, you know pastor Dominic Romaldi from Street Talk Theology.

He's part of the Christian podcast community. He's one of the.

Yeah, and so he.

He basically said that that that message ruined his lunch. He had you know, Aaron was telling us we have to consider everything we do should be for the glory of God and basically, what ended up happening was you end up seeing that we that He's goes to lunch and he's trying to have he's trying to eat a tuna fish sandwich.

I think it was and he's like I can only take two bites and was like am I really doing this to glorify God? I think it was more his nerves because he was gonna be speaking. He I then spoke on the issue of social justice or I think Dominic spoke just before me why I forget which the order but Dominic for folks that don't know was he gave a little bit of his testimony of how he was went from Organized crime to a federal prison to becoming a pastor how God changed his life and You know, it was it was a good message in the the next day Aaron Brewster talked about Basically our responsibility in other people's worship then Dan craft really brought down the entire conference and Did what I consider to be probably the best Presentation I have ever seen on the issue of abortion and That's an issue there in Arizona with a bill that's up and that's really was the theme behind the whole conference.

What got that with pastor Jay thinking about it? And so that was was very powerful. Kevin. Hey who you you know of?

Doctor Kevin. Hey, we should say now. Oh, yeah, they did that that class of Master seminary finished their doctorates. Yeah, that's right.

So he is now graduated. So he talked about what it's what was like for Daniels friends living in Babylon and. Because that's really what we're doing. We're we're living in a country like Babylon and what is our responsibility?

That was great. And then I Again had this message. I I don't know what I said that if the messages were really good then I chose him. But if they were really depressing then pastor Jay assigned him, you know, it just.

Because I talked social justice, but then the second one was preparing for persecution. So yeah, that was that was another one of those ones like oh, yeah, everyone's waiting for that message. Not, you know, what's funny is.

Last Friday I was sitting in our meeting. So every Friday we have a Sales meeting and it's the whole sales team and then the owner of the company. And so I'm sitting in the meeting and I get a text from my mom and my mom goes Are you listening to Andrew right now?

I was like, no, I'm in a meeting I'm trying to find out if I'm doing a good job at my job.

So I didn't know your mom listens. That's cool. Oh, yeah.

Here's so whenever we start talking me and my mom start talking about eschatology. Here's what she says. She she'll go. You know what. When I get to a place where she doesn't have an answer she'll go.

Maybe you should talk to Jim Osman about that. Maybe you should talk to Andrew about that. I love your mom already.

David Smalley, the Debate Setup, and the Atheist Guest

And I should mention the intro because there's a specific reason why I played that intro. For some who know not just because we have someone that professes to be an atheist coming into the show. It wasn't for Bill's sake though there's a double meaning there with but that the intro was David Smalley and that was In Texas when a friend of mine Matt slick was doing two debates in two nights David Smalley one night and Matt Bill a hunty the next night and that was we had because we got to know some of the guys because it was a lot of people came to both nights and We ended up talking with David and and kind of his crew there.

Before the debate so Matt and I and our group kind of got with their group and had some discussions. I think we even went to dinner I can't remember if he joined us for dinner or not, but he knew his whole argument was that Christianity is wrong because God is immoral and He's immoral because he allows for slavery.

And so when I when I came up and asked him that question about abortion He already knew that I equate abortion and slavery because they're both an ownership issue and they are both an issue of Ownership rights and that is why he said he was much happier debating Matt than me because I Think what that was was a conceding that had Matt taken that same argument I think like he would have had a really hard time after two hours of arguing that slavery is wrong to now say well Slavery is okay.

If it's abortion and when I asked that question what didn't pop up is there was three tables of atheists that all went. Ooh. Because they also were around when they heard our discussion so so yeah.

Okay, so by what standard is God immoral, right? Right. How do you justify morality, right? What's the standard of morality that you that you're using to measure whether or not God is moral or immoral?

Yeah, well that may came up come up tonight. And with that, why don't I bring in? Mr. Bill cluck?

Bill how are you, sir? Hey, pretty good. Nice to see you again. Yeah, good to see you.

Good to have you back. Always good to talk with you. I know off-screen is your ministry partner James. We should bring him in because part of the part of introducing you I'm gonna put up the link for your book club.

Why don't James I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you how did you tell a story. How did you meet Bill? And how did you guys start the book club and for the audio listeners? The book club is atheist Christian book club Comm so atheist Christian book club comm kind of tells you what they're about.

But James actually introduced yourself as well because I may have to have you back because your background is quite interesting as well.

Well, I'm president of a ministry called watchman fellowship and apologetics ministry focusing mostly on interfaith evangelism. So we mostly work with other religions. I'm a former Mormon and who became an evangelical Christian.

So that kind of is what got me really interested in this whole topic but we deal in the area of Islam and Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology just other religions, but I have an interest also in atheism.

I was speaking at a church I'm in Arlington, Texas, and I was speaking at a church a real large church about a 45-minute drive and One of my associates Bob came up and said there's a guy who needs to meet you and he wants he's an atheist and he Wants to do a meet an atheist Sunday here.

And so I went out real quickly and met with Bill and he thought I was a pastor of the church. I was a guest speaker there and he said I said I can't help you with that, but I would like to talk to you sometime.

And so he heard I was in Arlington. And so he he said our our Metroplex atheist group meets in Arlington. Every week every Wednesday and It's at a place called Jay Gilligan's a bar and grill and I said that's a half a block from my office.

I'd walk there I don't even have to drive there from my office and So he was kind enough to come out and meet me at my office and introduced me to some of the leadership there. So for the next better part of a year most of those meetings I went to and got to know Randy word the president of that time a Metroplex atheist and a lot of the gang and we had great conversation.

We talked about everything from the problem of evil to the documentary hypothesis theory. We talked about about Evidence that demands a verdict we talked about everything kind of thing you can imagine.

We talked about the Dallas Cowboys and and the Texas Rangers everything you'd imagine and out of that meeting and getting to know people. We developed about a year later the atheist and Christian book club and we meet mostly By zoom now that we met for the first couple of years almost all in person and it was just a local event and so.

What we do is we usually bring the author in and we alternate books we do a Christian book one month atheist book the next month and we've had some top-notch both Christian and atheist authors New York House best-selling authors have been our guests before.

Bart Ehrman. Greg Dale Allison. Dale Allison, we've had Methodsists such as David Fitzgerald Robert Price. Yes, and on Christian side. We've had Gary Habermas and.

Frank Turek and just the who's who of Christian apologetics as well. And so it has become a friendship, you know, we said it's a respectful Conversation between believers and non-believers.

On important books from both perspectives. We just had godless granny on a very sharp lawyer. Mind like a steel trap. I mean your guests are really gonna enjoy her. I really encourage.

Beyond next week on this show. That's what what Bill's referring to and that's where Bill Bill and I started talking because I forget how. But somehow I called you because she was coming on.

I think I called you were come the glue. He's an atheist but I teach also at Arlington Baptist University, and there's a new faculty member on there and. And I know him through the book club. But come to find out it was indirectly through bill that he was able to get the job.

So Bill, I don't know how you get in all these Christian circles. But you become kind of the glue and I know you because I know Bill and so Bill knows you so I know you. So there we go.

Yeah, and folks for those who are Christians just keep praying for Bill as we do. He's he's. He needs to come to Christ.

James has heard every argument against Christianity and God. He's listened to the best Atheist apologist on earth and it's just like remember that Muhammad Ali George Foreman fight where Muhammad Ali said Is that all you got George and he goes that's about it.

Yeah, and it's just like with James. It's so you can listen to the other side. You can listen to other apologetics and still James's example a of Maintain your you can still maintain your faith and be a strong Christian.

Andrew what what I my problem? I've got lots of problems. One of my problems is I run in certain Christian circles all the time and so, you know, it's just like my in my office everybody's Christian as far as I can tell and It watchman fellowship and they don't on the weekend.

I'm at church Christians I go home. My family's all Christian and it can it can create like an echo chamber where you're not you're you're not. I Got convicted because I realized I was teaching a course I think at Criswell College on evangelism and I realized that I had gone probably months Since I personally had had a conversation About the gospel with a non-believer and I start thinking why are I doing this when I started thinking it's not that I'm not having Gospel conversations.

I'm not having any Conversations because I just run in those circles all the time. And so I need something this is going to get me out of my bubble and it's gonna force me to read the best best atheist books available.

Because I need to know these things but what's the book club does this? I know no matter what I'm doing all month long I'm gonna have a two-hour session with some a top atheist author and some very well-read Friends of mine and I call them my friends who are atheists and the book club does that for me?

I hope it makes me a better thinker.

You will you just race on that. I bring up all the time for Christians. They should be evangelizing because it has a direct relationship to their sanctification. The fact is is that if you're in a bubble of people that all think like you you're not challenged to sharpen your thinking.

You know, that's why I have drew here so we can work on his.

Country and in church all my ideas sound brilliant but I'm in the book club and I have when I've got some top some really. Good thinking atheist. I realized that some of my some of my ideas are stronger than others.

Well, yeah, I've never you know, I've never lost a debate in my head. I win them all in my head, you know when.

So we were attending a church where my Right. I am Reformed Baptist 1689 right. And this is a old Southern Pentecostal church that we were attending. But I knew a lot of the people there and I was burdened for a lot of the people there.

They weren't getting the gospel. They weren't getting good Bible teaching. So I started just going on Wednesday night Bible study and where I had moments to speak in I would make sure to elevate Christ so that they could see Big Christ because they weren't getting that.

What. What you started to see? Was that all of these people had grown up in an area in in a church? Where everyone thought the same thing and then I'm coming along and I'm challenging them, but I'm not just Challenging them.

I'm actually Challenging them with scripture because they would say something and I'd say well if we look at this text It doesn't say that in the text like that's not what it means. Here's what the author means because he says this in verse 1 and then he hears his Pattern of thinking throughout the text and they did not like that at all not one bit so I Was like, you know what after about a year?

I realized They're not going to To listen to me. I'm I'm not helping anything. Even though I'm trying to give them Christ and elevate Christ and give them the gospel. So I was like, okay. Well, I guess we just need to go somewhere else.

So We've been attending now another local church, but I know the pastor. He's actually he's followed our ministry for a while. He's followed matter of theology Justin Peters and so he's his preaching very sound Expositional the gospel woven throughout every message and it's just it's really good and he's Sort of technically family.

We're kind of married into a family. So, you know, it's it's really good whenever we get together we get to have good edifying conversations and stuff. So that's where we're gonna be going because You try to make something a mission field.

But then when everyone thinks the same thing all the time the echo chamber that you're talking about. You're just not getting anywhere. And then I went and like this would be the only interaction with someone like Andrew or Aaron Jim, you know, whoever comes on the podcast that I would have of sound biblical doctrine and Really?

I was ending up starving myself. And so I needed to be in a place where I could be ministered to as well.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Of course every church needs an apologist, but yeah, I don't want. It's always a church split.

You know. By the way, oh.

Great. Yeah, I always try. I love what you said. Every church needs an apologist, but just one. Hey, I'm always I'm always like someone else do it someone else.

So so bill let's for folks who don't remember you give a little bit of your background. You know you you profess that you used to be a Christian converted to atheism. To you know, let folks know about that and then also.

Thanks to James. There's a little story that you Don't may or may not believe in miracles, but saw one so that piqued my interest and now I have to find out.

Well I used to go to colonial Baptist Church in Cary, North Carolina and one of the Members of the Sunday school class said Bart Ehrman speaking at Barnes and Noble. I went who's Bart Ehrman? So I went there and within 30 minutes.

I mean, I do not know anything about you know scholarship you know new testament scholarship and so forth and you know read all his books and By the way, I did see a miracle I dated an aerobics teacher and she got in a wrestling match with a guy and broke her collarbone and The doctor she goes I'm gonna be teaching aerobics tomorrow night.

We laughed and he goes no you got six weeks and then one day she Was totally healed and I went to the doctor. I said, what do you think of that? He goes she's a mighty healer. But anyway, you know with atheism you go sometimes I wake up and I go how did I get here?

It was it a Christopher Hitchens book. Was it, you know, some bias I that I might have ran into I really might maybe didn't think this thing all the way through. So one of the books that's had a profound impact on me that we've read in the books club is the fortunate universe by Luke Barnes, who's a Physicist out of Australia and The problem is it's very technical me give an example you have four forces an edge of the electromagnetic sport.

Force gravitational and strong and weak nuclear force. So you have the Electromagnetic force that attracts electrons and protons and so forth. But when you get inside the nucleus at very tight levels.

You have this strong nuclear force that holds the protons and neutrons together. So it's like where did this come from? You know I started I'm starting to ask these questions and I'm gonna be talking to Luke to get more of a precise definition so it just there's so many things like the Billions and galaxies with billions of stars and I've learned from Dan who works it on staff.

He's kind of led me to this cosmology that when you have a star you have the Gravitational force pushing the star trying to crush it, but yet you have thermonuclear reactions in the midst of the star that are pushing our so it's this knife edge.

Thing that perfect balance perfect balance there and it's not just a few thousand few million billions of stars.

So and not just for a split second this they will they will be on that pinpoint knife edge balance for.

Millions of years and like the resonance of carbon, you know beryllium and helium. They just got that much time to to become a carbon thing. And if if these things aren't right if you're fine structure constant.

Which is one to the 137 if that's 4 off either way, you don't get carbon and thus you don't get life. So he's brought up a lot of questions and I'm kind of having a little crisis of faith here so I'm trying to figure it out and.

Great for me. Okay. Yeah, actually I'm. What I'm doing right now is I'm gonna send you Jason Lyle's latest argument article that is in the answers journal a little bit of a technical article but it is an article where he has taken a look at.

You know some of the the James the James Webb telescope data and sifted through that and you know shows that it gives evidence of a Relatively younger. 6 ,000 years isn't a long time. It's old. But just a lot younger than you know, most people think so.

I just sent that to your to your. I texted that to you, but it might be some race.

He's our little resident cosmologists. He says there's too many type three Stars and so so there's lots of problems. The other book that we had Stephen Meyer. Are you familiar with him at the Discovery Institute?

Mm-hmm he says things like the Big Bang DNA and These things just to get DNA off the ground is a big miracle. I listen to the The debate between professor Dave and dr. Tor James Tor and I have to admit James Tor had some good arguments.

One of his things was the origin of life. You can have Too many reactions where you get things that gunk things up and these chemists a lot of times have to go Pull off the shelf pure chemicals. So you have problem after problem with the origin of life.

The chirality you have to have the mirrored is the left-handed things have to be 19 of 20. Amino acids have to be left-handed. So it's one problem after another and I have to admit I think he you know He was a little passionate.

We and James were talking about he was really over the top in the debate He had with professor day, but I just thought he had good arguments.

Christ Holds All Things Together

Yeah, and I can answer the question that you asked earlier of what actually holds it together. It comes right from God's Word in Colossians chapter 1. Verse 17, but I'll back up to read verse 15. So we get context speaking of Jesus.

He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created both in the heavens and on the earth. Visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created.

Through him and for him He is before all things and in him all things hold together, so that's what holds everything together. It's Jesus Christ so. The scripture has the answer for you always has. So let's let's talk the the the topic that we you and I were talking on the phone because it really was interesting and son that I you keep up with a lot of what's going on and.

In different circles, I especially the those in the atheist circles. And you and I were talking just this movement that was you you have like a you know, Richard Dawkins who recently came out and was saying how.

You know, basically he's looking at his culture as it is moving more Muslim. And he's starting to realize that kind of between Muslim Islam and Christianity. Christianity is a lot more tolerant. You think so?

Well, he he was saying so I mean, I would think so. I mean when it comes to like look at the issue of LGBT, you know. We we come to them with a book. And Islam would come with a sword, right? I mean, we're gonna come saying we want you to repent and believe in Jesus and The Muslim is gonna throw him off a building according to the Quran, right?

James has debated some of the top Muslims you had a debate with. Who was the Muslim scholar Khalil Meek. I've debated him several times. We have interest in that as well and he's written a book on Islam.

What if your book.

What the Quran really says about Jesus. Oh.

Interesting. I might have to go get a copy.

I'm gonna slip out now. Let you guys talk a little bit. I'll be following along. Okay. All right.

Atheism, Islam, and Christian Tolerance

So so and you were telling me some of the stuff with you know, I mean there's guys like Bill Maher who have come out and the similar thing. You know where we're seeing professing atheists who are Starting to recognize that.

Kind of what I've said here from the beginning when we started this show I mean I said it, you know for a long time is the fact that atheism versus Islam. Atheism is gonna lose. I mean the Muslims are living for life beyond this world and so they're willing to die for what they believe in where.

You know atheists are not gonna do that, right. Because this this world they have.

Now here's the problem we we have this Metroplex atheist group and I said what are you guys up to now and they said oh. We're trying to get prayer out of schools in the Fort Worth and I went what? There's no problem with prayer in schools.

And even if they do a little prayer I went to a military academy and that never really hurt me. Or let's say at a City Council meeting. You have a throwaway prayer of it last minute. Who cares? It just.

I think this freedom from religion foundational is has gone way overboard.

Yes, so. And that is it. The thing intrigues me when I hear you say that because you are a professing atheist, right?

Right, but if they want to put Ten Commandments, I think which is the trend now in school rooms I don't care in a manger scene. You're kidding me, you know. I mean. It's a conflated thing with the Shepherds coming from Luke and the Magi from.

That could be a little good little discussion for atheists. They could witness to Christians about the Conflation of the two. I mean just get a life, you know.

Why why do you think that it is that the you know, so many of these atheist groups, you know. The will take the ones you brought up, right? They want to get prayer out of school and and is and the the question I'll have is is it all prayer just Christian prayer, but then also they want to get the Ten Commandments out.

Which again, it's that's not necessarily just Christian. I mean, there's you know, so, you know, there's Christianity in its broadest sense. You know Catholics Mormons drove what they would all hold to Ten Commandments.

Jewish people would. Muslims would. Why do you think that the groups are trying to remove things like like this. Why is that their their issue you think.

They should try to embrace Christians just Christians have lots of questions and Youtubers like apology are doing a wonderful job and your guest Godless granny is doing a fantastic job of they're gonna be talking about Moses whether he existed or not so that's what they need to do is reach out to Christians instead of Alienating Christians.

And one of the big problems with atheists is the community. They just cannot do community, right? Like the one I go to an atheist book club and it's 12 old guys including myself and one two girls Teresa my girlfriend and this other girl and it's just you'll get a young person come and then they'll just leave so and they have got to solve this community problem, but They just don't get it.

Why do you think they go too far though? Why do you think like you're saying they don't get it, but. What is pushing them and motivating them to do it?

Well, obviously they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness, have you not read Romans 1? Oh, I like you saying that. Put it up before me even. The same thing. I mean we have a really cool member Ken Daniels who was a former missionary to Africa and has become Atheist and There's not.