Interview of Chris Arnzen

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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Always building. We have a special interview for you.

01:05

I'm actually interviewing an interviewer, and that may seem a tad bit different, but that's what

01:11

I'm going to do. I was at G3 back in January, ways back, and I had the opportunity to be on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which

01:22

Chris Arnzen has guys all during G3. He gets a whole bunch of interviews, and he puts them up on his radio show, but we did something different, and I was able to interview him on his own show, which was kind of neat because most people don't get to hear a lot about him and his story, and I think as you listen to this, you're going to realize he has a pretty compelling story.

01:49

He's pretty open about some very blatant sin in his life and how church discipline actually saved his life.

01:57

For those who think we should avoid church discipline, well, he's going to give you a different view on that for sure.

02:03

So stay tuned. Listen to this interview. I hope that you are blessed by it, and so here comes the interview right now.

02:18

Welcome to The Rapid Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

02:25

This is a ministry of striving for eternity. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

02:41

Chris Arnzen here, once again manning the exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio at the

02:47

G3 Conference, G3 2019. This is the final day of the conference, and I have with me an old friend,

02:55

Andrew Rapoport, of Striving for Eternity Ministries, and something unique is going to happen now, something that you don't normally hear on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but the tables have been turned, as it were, and I am going to be interviewed by Andrew Rapoport, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Andrew Rapoport.

03:16

Well, thank you very much. We tried this last year at G3 without letting you know. Yeah, I think that was what was happening.

03:23

I tried, but the interviewer that you are, you turn the tables on me over and over and over, no matter how much.

03:31

I actually re -listened to it to try to figure out, how did he do this? And we'll air this as well on my podcast,

03:40

The Rap Report, but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time, because you are probably one of the best interviewers out there.

03:48

That's an honor to hear that. I don't know anyone that does it better, and so I've been wanting to get you on to interview you about your ministry, how

03:58

God has used your ministry literally around the world, and how you do what you do.

04:06

So first off for folks, even maybe some of your listeners may not know how long you've been doing this.

04:11

How long have you been in radio? Well, working in radio, not to include, well, let me take that back.

04:21

Working in radio before I was an actual talk host, talk radio host,

04:28

I have been involved in the radio industry since the mid -1980s. I started off selling commercial time as an account executive with a small ad agency on Long Island, New York, selling airtime for a

04:45

Golden Oldies station, WGLI, in West Babylon, Long Island, which doesn't exist anymore.

04:51

The Mighty 1290, it was called. And also a very small black gospel station on Long Island, which

05:00

I don't think exists anymore either, WTHE. I was there for quite a long time. Do we see a trend here? Well, the trend is they went out of business after I stopped selling airtime.

05:14

So note to First Love Radio, they should make sure they never let you go. And WRIV and Riverhead.

05:22

So this ad agency basically predominantly had their team selling commercial time on a number of small

05:32

Long Island local radio stations. And then I had heard that WMCA Radio, which was known at that time as a secular talk radio station in New Jersey, it originated in New York City, but at the time it was in Rutherford, New Jersey.

05:53

They had to make the big announcement that they had been purchased by Salem Media, which is the largest now, is the largest

06:00

Christian radio network in the world. And so I, in fact, found out through a postcard

06:07

I got from 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, is James Montgomery Boyce and his staff over there had begun sending out postcards alerting the

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New York metropolitan area and tri -state area that he was going to be broadcasting on WMCA.

06:27

I got excited about that. I was a fairly new Christian, still working in secular radio, with the exception of the little black gospel station that we were placing time for.

06:38

And so I called up WMCA and I said, I'd like to meet with you folks. I've got some history in selling airtime.

06:45

They met with me. And the first time they met with me, they said, we definitely want to stay in touch with you.

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But right now we want everybody on the sales team to live locally to our New Jersey station.

06:59

And I was not prepared to move at that time. But then in about, I don't know, six months to a year,

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Joe Davis called me back, who was the general manager to the WMCA. And this would have been in 1991.

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He said, you know, Chris, we've rethought this with your history in selling airtime. And I really like you personally.

07:19

I like the way you communicate. You get a great voice and so on and so on. We would like you to be the

07:24

Long Island station representative for WMCA. You could remain there on Long Island and just come in once a week for sales meetings.

07:33

So that's what I did. Very soon after that call, I became a member of the

07:39

WMCA radio sales team and I worked there for 15 years. And during that time,

07:45

I caught the radio bug to host. Do you remember Andy Anderson of Talk New York on WMCA?

07:53

No. Really? And you live in New Jersey? I live in Jersey. I used to listen to family radio and I actually thought that was the bomb, but I didn't know any better coming from a

08:02

Jewish background, having no introduction to Christianity. Family radio at one point for a considerable number of years was the bomb.

08:13

They had the best preachers and teachers in the United States and in other parts of the world.

08:19

I thought Harold Camping was good. That's where you were off. Well, he speaks so authoritatively.

08:25

Yes. And then some people are immediately... So the mid 80s, that makes... So you started when you were what?

08:31

Five years old into radio? I knew I liked this guy for some reason. And so it would have been 1991 that I started with WMCA and Andy Anderson, who was the talk show host, was interviewing predominantly people that I had no interest in hearing.

08:50

And I would basically be frustrated listening to the guests that he had.

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So I started strongly urging Andy, why don't you get this author on and why don't you get this person?

09:04

And Andy would say to me, well, I don't know anything about that subject. I don't know this person. I'd say, well,

09:10

I could write questions for you. Oh, really? Well, that sounds good. So he fell in love with this,

09:16

Andy Anderson, because it meant obviously less labor for him. He didn't have to really prepare.

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And he was asking me more and more to do this for him. And so I was getting a lot of guests on, if you ever heard somebody was theologically reformed on Andy Anderson Live, which is eventually what they called the program before that was

09:36

Talk New York. But Andy began because he began to trust my discernment and my ability to ask questions because of the questions

09:44

I wrote for him. He started to say to the management, you know, I'm going on vacation. Why don't you let

09:50

Chris Arnzen fill in for me? Or I'm not feeling well. I'm not going to come in tomorrow. Why don't you call Chris Arnzen?

09:55

And they were beginning to do that. And in fact, I can remember the first time

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I ever hosted as a fill -in host for Andy Anderson, I opened up the very first words out of my mouth after the theme music died down.

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I said, the Calvinists have taken over the building. Andy Anderson is tied and gagged under the studio council.

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You will not hear a single word from him today. We have control. The Calvinists are here in the building and we have control.

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And my guests, who were all reformed pastors, were dying. They never expected in a million years that I would do that.

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So I was actually shocked that they invited me back at the station. But so I wound up hosting quite often and fell in love with that, doing that.

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And then when Andy sadly died of bladder cancer, I believe, for the first two weeks after his death,

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I was the fill -in host. My friend, the general manager, Joe Davis, put his hand on my shoulder and he said, you know, you really do a good job at this.

11:04

But we could never have a five -point Calvinist regularly do the talk show here.

11:10

And I'm sorry, but you can't be the permanent replacement. I just can't see somebody with your strong convictions on a certain area of theology being able to host such a much more broad type talk show with a lot more diverse guests and so on.

11:27

And I disagreed with him at first because I said, hey, I've been on for two weeks and Calvinism has hardly come up.

11:33

But he had his point. I began to realize the wisdom in that decision because I know that if they were to call upon me to promote a conference or event of some kind or a show that they have just edited where I had vehement disagreement with the person or people or church or the ministry or organization or parachurch,

11:59

I would not have, just because this company or ministry or person had paid money to advertise,

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I would not have given him an easy ride as a guest. I would have had to have made my disagreements known.

12:14

So when I left there after 15 years and started my own ad agency,

12:19

I passed by a little tiny Christian radio station in West Babylon, Long Island, WNYG, and asked for an appointment with the general manager,

12:33

Phyllis Rose. And she came out to greet me in the lobby and standing in the, because I wanted to get information on this station to add to my portfolio as an ad agent.

12:47

So when I would meet with clients, I would give WNYG just one option to a client.

12:54

This is one station that you could advertise with. So during that brief conversation in the lobby with Phyllis Rose, she said, wow, you have a really great radio voice.

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Did you ever host a talk show? And I said, well, I used to fill in for Andy Anderson on WMCA.

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She goes, well, we have the 2 p .m. slot open. You want it? And I'm not exaggerating. Within five minutes, you said that.

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So I said, well, let me pray about that and give me two weeks. And I really already knew that I wanted it, but I just prayed for two weeks and got advice and all this kind of thing.

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I finally said, Phyllis, I'm going to take you up on your offer. And the first day that I was hosting the show during a commercial break, she burst through the door of the studio and she says, what are you doing?

13:42

I said, I'm hosting a talk show. She goes, yeah, but you're not doing anything that I thought you'd be doing.

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You're not giving weather reports or playing music. I said, you want to DJ? Is that what you want?

13:54

I'm not a DJ. I thought you wanted a talk show host. That's what I'm doing. She goes, yeah, but all you're doing is talking.

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I said, yeah, that's what a talk show host does. She said, I don't know if this is going to work out. She was very upset. And I actually was bold enough to say, and in fact,

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I hate the music, most of the music that you play on this station. That went over well.

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So she left there very upset. And for like a week, she never gave me a friendly greeting that I can remember.

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She was very upset about this. But things radically changed because this little tiny station, as small as it was, live streamed.

14:36

When I was sitting there, I can still remember conducting a talk show. It was a live call -in show at that time,

14:42

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. And Wally, who was my producer and call screener on the other side of the glass, he's looking at me like he just got word that the

14:58

United States was invaded by a foreign country or something. His eyes were as big as saucers. He holds up a piece of paper.

15:05

You have a caller from Dublin, Ireland. I said, really? So I said, well,

15:11

Joe in Dublin, Ireland. And he gave a question to the guest. And then I can't remember if it was the same day, but not long after that, he holds up another piece of paper.

15:21

You have a listener in Switzerland? And we were getting calls from all over the

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United States and from other parts of the world and from Sweden and from, I can't even give you all the countries.

15:36

I know that by now we have at least 26 foreign countries where listeners of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio reside.

15:43

But then they fell in love with the show because they couldn't believe it. Nothing like that had ever happened because obviously, before I was there, they were either playing music or pre -recorded programs or very poorly done shows by local charismatic ministers, basically, you know, very amateurish sounding.

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And I'm not trying to boost myself up and be arrogant, but it was the guests that I had on that were the kind of guests that they'd never had teaching, other than a couple of pre -recorded programs by national ministries and so on that they had.

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So they fell in love with the show. They felt like a real radio station. We were on the map. We were getting calls from all over the place.

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So she left me alone after that and was very kind and sweet and nice to me.

16:36

Never gave me a hard time about anything after that. How long were you there doing that show? I did

16:41

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio on Long Island, New York from WNYG and then also

16:47

WGBB, which was their sister station, from 2005 until 2011 when very sadly my wife of nearly 20 years passed away.

16:59

So I immediately, at least temporarily in my mind, resigned from the

17:07

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio program and put it on hiatus for an undetermined period of time.

17:14

That undetermined period of time in 2011 turned out to be a four -year hiatus. I was just not mentally or spiritually prepared to be back on the show.

17:26

I had very sadly, tragically, drifted back into very serious alcohol abuse.

17:35

When I first was saved in the 80s, I had left a life of habitual drunkenness and was sober for 18 years and started drinking again when my wife first began getting ill and began to turn to alcohol to self -medicate, you know, just to get my mind off of things, which a lot of people do when they use any kind of a mind -altering substance.

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And so that became a very serious problem to the point of scandalous addiction and I was put under church discipline.

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And, you know, a lot of people are scared about that concept. They want nothing to do with it.

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If they find out they're under discipline, they will abandon the church. And sometimes this is actually,

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I think, a litmus test whether somebody in the church is truly one of the elect if they are being put under discipline and they say, no, that's not for me.

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And they just abandon the church and either go to another church where the elders don't know about their sin or don't care.

18:49

Some churches are just so starving for numbers and money that they don't care. And I know people in that circumstance.

18:56

But my being put under church discipline saved my life. And my pastors,

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Mark Romaldi and Doug Totter of Grace Reformed Baptists Church of Long Island in Merrick, they very lovingly and at the same time sternly got me under church discipline.

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And one of my requirements was to find a Christian alcohol and drug recovery ministry to place myself under their authority and get through this.

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And I found, thanks be to God, Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina.

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Very fine Christian rehabilitation or recovery ministry that is the oldest

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Christian drug and alcohol recovery ministry that is still running in the United States.

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It's absolutely free of charge other than a $300 deposit for pharmaceutical needs that may arise and you are refunded that when you leave if you don't use it.

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And so I spent nearly three months in this ministry in the beautiful mountains of Boone, North Carolina and the

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Lord just completely delivered me from this addiction. And I still to this day am amazed at the grace and mercy and love and power of God.

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And I'm not saying that God loves another brother or sister in Christ any less if they don't have the same experience

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I have. But I have absolutely no temptation to drink at least at this point in my mind.

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I know that I always have to remember he who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall.

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But at the same time I very frequently will be in the company of brothers in Christ who enjoy their liberty to moderately consume alcohol and they will ask me, brother is it okay if I have a beer with our meal today?

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I'm totally fine and I am not in the slightest bit tempted to, man

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I wish I could have one of those. I'll be at a restaurant like Applebee's and sometimes the seats will be all full and they'll say do you mind sitting at the bar if my friends want to do that while we eat?

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I say no problem and I sit there at the bar eating and I never have the slightest bit of temptation.

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Finding it unbearable after I returned from North Carolina to Long Island, I found it unbearable to live on Long Island because I missed my wife so much, my late wife, and I saw her face everywhere

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I looked. Every restaurant I went to, every place I traveled on Long Island, she was there in my mind and it became extremely heartbreaking and depressing to remain there.

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So I had friends that already lived here, Christian friends who lived in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and on a fluke

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I had a funny experience. I found an apartment out in the eastern

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Suffolk County, Long Island in a gorgeous upper middle class neighborhood. It was fairly inexpensive.

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It was the apartment in the in the pool house near this elderly woman's swimming pool and I was moving my furniture in there and had told her a certain time that I was going to be moving in on Memorial Day and a deacon of a church that was going to use his truck to help me move my furniture there he got delayed for hours unexpectedly because his wife and family wanted to go to a

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Memorial Day party that he was unaware of. So I told this, I kept calling this woman every hour,

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I'm really sorry he's not here yet. He's been delayed by a Memorial Day party and I really apologize please forgive me and when he finally arrived about five hours after he said he would be there even though it was broad daylight

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I moved my stuff in and the woman was very upset but she said okay we'll just have to live with this digression from the plans but okay well thank you very much and seven o 'clock in the morning the very next day knock at the door.

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I opened the door we're half asleep and she says this isn't gonna work. You're gonna have to move out.

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What you did to me yesterday was so horrifying. I had to leave a Memorial Day party in order to wait for you and I said ma 'am with all due respect your

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Memorial Day party was across the streets. You would have known that a big truck was pulling up and it was still broad daylight and you know but I said okay

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I realized that I had dodged a bullet to have a landlord like that wouldn't have been a good thing. So I just as a fluke

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I called my friend Buzz Taylor who many people may recognize that name because he for the first couple years of Iron Churpin's Iron was nearly an everyday co -host and that may

24:20

Buzz may return now and again to co -host the show but he's been very busy in fact he's writing his own book on eschatology but I called my friend

24:29

Buzz as a joke and I said hey down there

24:34

Buzz just out of curiosity know any apartments available in Carlisle because I just got thrown out of mine one night and he said yeah actually

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I can't believe you said that the apartment right across the hall from me and this this home that is formerly a

24:51

Presbyterian manse or parsonage a historic manse in Carlisle Pennsylvania well the the apartment across the hall from me is vacant and my landlord said if I get somebody to fill it they will take a hundred dollars off my next month's rent so I said let me go see this place so I took an

25:11

Amtrak to Carlisle saw the apartment fell in love with it and said I'm moving in and two weeks later

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I moved in there and I am still there to this day and that is the physical home of Iron Radio I relaunched the program in 2015 and because two of my sponsors

25:29

Battery Depot .com and Waiting River Baptist Church they advertised with me on my old show on Long Island and they said we want you to be back on the air and so don't wait around for a radio station to pick you up we're going to buy you the studio equipment that you need so you can launch the program and start off internet -based and hopefully you know you'll get radio stations to eventually pick you up and so that's the beginning of Iron Trip and Zion Radio 2 the

26:01

Carlisle Pennsylvania version of Iron Trip. Well you are getting picked up by radio stations now right? Yeah well since then we have

26:10

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City Florida that has been airing my show how long

26:17

Eric has it been one year two years two years they've been airing my show for two years every day and there are things that I can't mention right now that I have just discovered at G3 about new opportunities for me on other radio stations but I...

26:32

Well we'll keep quiet about that so you brought up something I wanted to get to later because many people think church discipline is going to drive people away from church many people think that churches shouldn't point out or what they'll say is police people's sin and one of the things as you've already said but I want to go into more detail is the fact of how church discipline really was used in a great way by God and through the church in your life and I think a lot of people want to avoid that but I think your testimony is one that many people need to hear because church discipline does serve a

27:09

Yes and I think as hard and as harsh as this sounds and as as horrible as it is it is also a good thing if it drives people away from the church because those people who are being driven away under the threat or the um insistence is probably a better word that they were will be placed under discipline the people who are being driven away

27:38

I think as the good book says that those who left us were never truly one of us and so I don't think a church is helped in any way when members even if they've been beloved members for decades

27:56

I was a member of the church for quite a long time when I was placed under discipline but I became a scandal in fact you use the word policing of sins

28:05

I don't think that elders should be the busy bodies and police the private lives of the members and like you know un unannounced visits to their home and to snoop around and all that I don't think that that should be done but my sin was was the news of my sin was dropped into the lap of my elders because I was going to bars and became a public publicly known drunkard and uh then and the thing that made it worse is that it was very well known amongst many not all but many people in the community that I was also a

28:48

Christian and a member of a church so and people just thought that was hilarious um but then word got back to my elders through people in the community who knew them or knew the church or even members of the police department locally uh not that I was being arrested or anything like that but but I was just some of the police officers knew of my public drunkenness and so they they warned me

29:14

Chris you have got you are now under church discipline we are going to send a letter to the congregation making them aware of this and they wrote a very uh correctly worded uh letter that was not over the top or probing too deeply into anything personal but I I didn't take any offense by it which is interesting because I think that many if not most people would uh and I knew it was necessary it's not like I was unaware that I was rebelling against God so and I I followed their instructions and there and as I said one of them was to find a rehabilitation so I'm I'm very happy that they left the liberty to find that ministry up to me

30:04

I'm glad that they didn't force me into something that I felt uncomfortable with the strategy or ideology like for instance one of the initial drug and alcohol rehab ministries that they wanted me to place myself in was run predominantly by charismatics some of those folks

30:27

I know and I love them and they're wonderful people but there's something about the structure of the ministry and the emphasis on the charismatic and my church by the way is not in any way or the one that I was a member of is not in any way charismatic but they there's not many

30:41

Christian rehabilitation ministries especially not locally to Long Island and so and they're typically also extremely expensive yes

30:55

Hebron Colony as I mentioned it was free other than the $300 deposit and I can't stop singing their praises one of the interesting things about Hebron Colony is that it does not utilize the 12 -step philosophy you will never hear other than when they have guest speakers you will never hear the men and by the way they have a woman's facility called

31:20

Grace Home in Santee, South Carolina that's actually who told me about Hebron Colony it was a woman

31:26

I know who's a dear sister in Christ who herself admitted herself years earlier to the women's program in South Carolina but the philosophy there is basically if you go to Hebron Colony it is a men's discipleship ministry with the focus to if there are lost men in that place and which would the majority would be they are preached to and evangelized with the hopes of them repenting and turning to Christ and if there are

32:03

Christians in a backslidden state there it's for them to repent and to be restored and there is very little discussion of alcohol or drugs other than when men might be sitting around having a meal and talking to each other there's a lot of that but there was no they didn't want people as like it occurs at a typical

32:24

NA or AA meeting people standing up and giving their stories their horror stories about life which which happens at every

32:33

NA or AA meeting they thought that that was detrimental it very often very often glamorizes those kinds of addictions and so on people kind of want to one -up each other on who had the more horrible story now as I said that they would have guest speakers on occasion do that but I'm talking about I think it's harmful when

33:01

I say the guest speakers would give their testimonies just like I'm doing right now but to have a constant saturation and a dominance of that is what

33:08

I'm talking about they so they don't need to prevent that they don't let anybody do that yeah

33:13

I used to I used to work at a very similar sounding place in America's Keswick I used to do counseling there and similarly they've put 250 dollars not you don't get it back but that's all they charge but you have a different scripture verse you have to memorize every day oh we had we had a whole and that's what everyone's focused on we had a workbook that had to be complete yep by the end of the uh two and a half months length of the of the uh your time there that you would not you would not graduate with a certificate that you've successfully completed the program without filling out completely the workbook and the thing that was interesting is that there was no one on staff at Hebron that was a five -point calvinist other than one sweet lady

34:01

Ruth Elliott who is still a receptionist there but none of the the pastors on staff were five -point calvinists although or should

34:11

I say however the ministry itself which began in the early 1900s actually the 1940s

34:19

I guess after world war ii or it might have even been during world war ii but a presbyterian minister down south uh in North Carolina uh was seeing the high rate of GIs returning home that were alcoholics and it became such a burden to him that he providentially at the same time that he was witnessing this he was pastoring a presbyterian church that was in the southern presbyterian denomination which had apostatized become more and more liberal this is even back in the early 1900s and he insisted to the congregation that they had to leave that denomination the congregation did not stand by him they wanted to stay so he left and but God used his departure from that church from pastoring the church to start

35:19

Hebron Collin and so the thing that's interesting is he designed the program that they use and it's clearly reformed in its emphasis although it doesn't use those words like yeah reform and calvinist so I've been reading this workbook and filling it out

35:36

I'm like don't these people realize this is calvin and I don't mean to say anything uh bad about any of the folks working there but they just saw that what was developed by the founder was very biblical and they kept this the program yeah so it's not and it's not like they were anti -calvinist they just were not calvinist there's more people that are calvinist and they don't know it

36:00

I did this with a guy who he's he's an evangelist wrote a book he condemns calvinism

36:06

I sat down with him once I think you and I privately I told you a story but sat down with him and I just I gave the definitions of the five points without using the terminology he agreed across the board and I said so you're a five -point calvinist no

36:18

I don't believe in any such misrepresentation of it well the thing I'd like to do is

36:23

I think it's I think that they'd be encouraging especially for pastors because we're talking about church discipline earlier and church discipline is something that pastors want to avoid right

36:35

I think it's the reason when we look at Matthew 18 he's saying assuredly assuredly I say to you we're two or three gather in my name because they need the insurance right and of course

36:45

I think that there may be a serious problem if a group of elders or pastors are very eager and excited and enthusiastic about conducting church discipline that's that's a sick mind of a man who wants to do that yeah of course the abuses are on both ends

37:05

I think it's more predominantly the abuse of a church in this regard to not conduct church discipline to avoid it especially if those that need to be under discipline are somehow contributing much to the congregation whether financially or in some other capacity

37:24

I have seen that happen with people that have gotten away with all kinds of wicked behavior because of the status they may have for some reason or other it might even just be because the longevity of the membership and they think as if they're doing these folks a favor and they're not yeah and that's what

37:44

I wanted to get into because I have been on the receiving end having to counsel many pastors who call me up when they're going through a church discipline situation how's the right way to handle this how do we can bring reconciliation with the church they're all trying to almost avoid it if they can at all possible and yet a big part of the thing that I say to them and I think you bring up when you give your account what happened with you is the fact that the best thing you could do for a sinning brother is to bring them under discipline

38:13

I think it does no good to the sinning brother or sister to let them continue in their sin and some of you'll think if you bring their sin up or you put them on a church discipline you're going to chase them away but I think you brought out for the the genuine believer that should bring them back under repentance so for a pastor who may be going through this there or knowing that they're going to have to go through this what encouragement can you give to a pastor who's having to discipline someone out of their church or start that process where they have that fear that they might chase the person away or things like that to encourage them that what they're doing is actually the best thing they could do for that individual spiritually first thing

38:59

I'd like to say is if there is a pastor or pastors plural who want that kind of counsel and advice they can email me and I would put them in touch with their peers with pastors that I know that have conducted church discipline who could give both the praise reports and the very sad reports about their conducting church discipline depending upon how those that were being disciplined reacted to it because I obviously don't necessarily feel myself to be in a position where I'm comfortable giving pastors advice about too many things but having said that I think as I've already said that they should not be more fearful of offending or losing a member than they are over that person losing their own soul uh they should recognize that what they are doing is a ministry of love and they should behave that way because there are horror stories about churches that have abused their authority

40:05

I think it's I think this is in a minority today I don't think that that is the predominant problem in evangelicalism but I think that there are in fact sadly these horror stories very often come out of theological circle circles that I am in you know reformed churches reformed baptist churches and so on that may have been overly harsh about things sometimes that are debatable whether they're truly sinful uh or they may be sins but the the level of severity uh did not require the the hard uh actions by the elders but but having said that if you believe that a person is committing a sin that needs to uh certainly be uh drawn to the attention of all the elders at first obviously

41:06

I don't think every sin a member of a church commits needs to be brought to the attention of the entire congregation especially if the sin is not a publicly known thing uh like for instance

41:19

I think that a pastor or an elder or a deacon uh

41:26

I think uh they are clearly revealed in the scriptures as being people who need to be above reproach and they have a higher calling to purity not that uh they not that regular congregation members are having some kind of license to sin

41:42

I don't mean that but I the the pastor or the elder or the deacon and I believe by the way pastors and elders the same office

41:50

I do too but uh they are they have to go the extra mile to give the public appearance of purity but if a person is not an office holder in a church

42:03

I think that more leniency about public rebuke should be in place

42:11

I don't think that every time elders find out about a sin that a member commits that they have to immediately rush to the to tell the whole congregation

42:19

I think that that time is only reached of course it depends on the severity of the sin and so on and and how public it is exactly uh but it also um if the person doesn't demonstrate any interest in repenting that's when it's another so I think that pastors should be letting whoever in their congregation that they want to place under discipline letting that person know immediately we want you to know that we're doing this because we love you and demonstrate that even in the tone of voice and body language and all that in the constant reminder of this is what

43:05

God has ordained to bring you back into a place of restoration a place of peace with God and peace with the church and sometimes it may involve a sin this sin is such a grievous sin that you have been involved in that if you remain involved in this sin we are to tragically regard you as an unbeliever even if in the mind of God if he who is omniscient knows that you are regenerate that is aside the point if you're not acting like you're regenerate we as fallible people who don't know all things don't know the heart we have to treat you as an unbeliever and if you don't repent and drunkenness that's my sin not that not that that was my only sin

43:57

I sit every day still um but uh drunkenness is among those sins where we are warned you have no eternal life if you continue in these things but some of you once were these things

44:11

I mean drunkenness is listed in a in a uh among the the most heinous sins that human beings can commit including murder so it's something that should be taken very seriously and by the way a word of rebuke in love to all of my reform brethren who flaunt their liberty to imbibe an alcohol

44:39

I believe that a Christian does have a liberty to moderately drink as long as they stop long before the point of of drunkenness uh

44:51

I don't want anybody to mistake me in thinking that I am pushing total abstinence on others

44:57

I believe that I must be totally abstinent from alcohol because of the temptation that I know it would bring to me to possibly go back full bore and to surrender to the sin of drunkenness but also since others know many others know of my history of abuse

45:19

I don't want to give anybody a reason to think that I am you know back on the bottle

45:26

I can it's kind of funny maybe not I don't know but there are occasions even recently where I've been walking uh down the street into a store or something and the the sidewalk will be icy it'll be like moving around I'm thinking oh great now people are seeing

45:43

Chris Orenson think he's drunk again but pastors should know you guys obviously and they know this if they are biblically literate that they must be first and foremost uh in fear of God uh they should be in fear of disobeying

46:06

God than they are of displeasing men they cannot be more consumed with people liking them and being happy with them and even giving them money than they are over what

46:21

God views to be the right thing to do and God is the one that ordained in his

46:27

God -breathed words that we are to discipline those among us who are involved in sin in an unrepentant fashion um

46:36

I was uh very I I'm thankful to God that he instilled within me through his

46:43

Holy Spirit a determination to obey the instructions and requirements of my elders to prove my repentance to be true and you know to go to an alcohol rehab ministry and do all those things uh so uh

47:01

I think a person who is following the instructions of the elders to be treated in a different way

47:10

I think that a person like that should be treated as a brother it's only when the person storms out of the office the study or even you know just blatantly says well who are you you're who are you to talk you're a sinner too uh

47:27

I'm how dare you bring this up in my life or what about that guy what about that you know pointing to other people who are involved in some kind of sin those are the people that you have to say well

47:38

I'm sorry we cannot regard you as a brother even if you are and we are unaware of this if you know even if you are just a backslidden regenerate person we cannot treat you that way and by the way that's for your good too and uh

47:55

I think pastors have to be reminded and also this is not going to avoid discipline is not going to do not only the the disciplinee any favors if you don't discipline him the congregation at large is not going to be blessed by allowing it to a tolerating unrepentant sin of that level of uh severity that uh discipline would be required uh now somebody might be thinking why are you saying that there is only certain sins that uh should require discipline well let's face it we all sin and I don't

48:36

I don't agree at all with the logic or the teaching of many

48:42

Christians today that I've encountered and had conversations with who will say sin is sin is sin is sin and I've known when pastors have been caught in adultery when people have voiced their opinion that that man even if he's restored to the fellowship of the church we can use his gifts in many different ways but he cannot be a leader in the church anymore he will no longer be above reproof how dare you say that you're a sinner too and and a sin is a sin is a sin and it's not some people in perhaps an overreaction to roman catholicism's venial and mortal sins and all that uh there is a clear distinction in the bible about the severity of sins um there for instance obviously in the old testament not every sin required a death penalty and uh you know we're not going to treat the adulterer in the same way as the brother who loses his temper now obviously even a brother who loses his temper habitually and keeps doing it that person even needs to be put under discipline but there is obviously different approaches that you've got to take you know you're gonna put a brother under church discipline if at a church picnic he becomes a glutton that day now obviously if this is a habitual thing where it's getting out of control it's ruining the person's life yeah but uh so i can't think of much else that i who is not a person in a church office can say that i can think of right now i think you brought up some things may paul encouraged and said that you know to timothy if pastor sins you you warn publicly that's a speaking of a pastor but it is true that as you brought out the whole congregation realizes we take sin serious here it's the purity of the church the other thing i think it was good you brought up is this is about love i know it's striving fraternity we have a quick reference card called a process of reconciliation one of the things that we do in it is it's a flow chart why because so many times when people are talking about sin oh that person sinned against me they're all emotional and really you need to take a step back and think through things we have we have a whole thing of actually isn't even a sin some people as you brought up they make issues that aren't really sin into sin because they want to judge and you have maybe i'm the one in sin not the other person you know i've seen that happen where they get to the second step of church discipline and suddenly realize no actually you were the offender not the offendee and so we we have a chart to like walk through all these steps before you even get to going to the person one -on -one and so so that's something we have we carry in our store because it's it's so important for people to i actually jokingly say it's my rules for facebook you know because facebook can learn they need to learn christians on facebook need to learn how to reconcile biblically but let me ask you in this in the last segment it will be this is you you do interviews i know on my on my rap report podcast it's more i'm just giving biblical interpretations applications whether it's my two minute daily it's just quick stuff or and you're best because you're smarter than me see i know that i'm only smart enough to ask good questions not answer them well i don't you're doing you're doing very good here but but there i see for me the asking of questions the way you do to me it's easier to to sit down with the text of scripture or to deal with an issue in in public that we have either in the news or whatever and add biblical principles to how we should view these things but when interviewing people one of the things i notice is you have an ability to bring out from people things that i don't hear i can hear the same person interviewed on other broadcasts but there's a way you have of bringing things out from people that i don't hear in others make it more personal make it where they they share things sort of differently not just here's what i say on every broadcast do you think through your questions in such a way to bring that out of people or is that something that just comes naturally to you uh whether or not it originally came naturally i don't know because i for some reason can't really remember but it eventually has become just through habit and repetition more of a natural thing for me to consider my discussions just like i am with you as very little different from sitting around a coffee table in the living room and having a conversation rather than be consumed with the fact that it is a broadcast now of course there are different differences in that you might not want to bring out personal things that should not be broadcast to an audience outside that room that would separate a coffee table conversation from a radio broadcast because that would actually be wrong i mean especially if you might during a face -to -face time of fellowship have to bring people's names up for some reason or another that would be obviously be guilty of sin by broadcasting other people's problems on the on the radio but uh that is my my goal and it's not even necessarily a conscious goal because i'm not like thinking in my head i'm going to act like i'm sitting at the coffee table with this person it's just something that i do when i'm when i'm interviewing them and it is interesting for me to see that those men and sometimes women who are terrified to be interviewed when i finally push them long enough and hard enough to give it a shot they're nine out of ten times i mean it might even be ten out of ten times that i'm aware of they always say wow this is great i i can i come back you know because this is this was a lot easier than i thought i'm not you put me at ease i wasn't intimidated i had that experience myself the first time i was on with you and uh even though i have gotten complaints that my laughter actually physically hurts the eardrums of some of my listeners and eric my webmaster knows that that's true uh it's not as bad when you listen to it at double and triple speed just so you know that's how i listen to it when i listen on podcast but i think my the fact that i enjoy humor and i spontaneously find things funny i hope not too often when they shouldn't be found funny but i think that also i've been told actually that my laughter has put people at ease uh sometimes when others have conducted interviews they have been overly polished with a desperate attempt to sound professional and i think that could put people out of ease make people feel uncomfortable because it's almost like they feel like they're under in a job interview or something or you know or an interrogation um but uh i i am trying to be as real and as natural and just be myself as i can uh in fact i just was speaking to somebody but today about an opportunity i may have uh well an opportunity i do have i should say for a different program other than iron chirp and zion radio that not that iron chirp and zion radio would go off the air that's absolutely not the intention at all it's not going to happen bless god has other plans i don't know about but this other program it's designed more to be about encouraging brothers and sisters in christ not necessarily a polemics type program which very often not all the time but iron chirp and zion radio very often does involve polemics and polemics is very important as necessary but for this particular program it's going to be more about encouragement and one thing that i have to recognize is and i hope this never happens to me but sometimes i hear well let me take that back frequently i hear christian radio programs that are intended to be those kinds of encouraging programs they sound completely artificial everybody sounds like mr or mrs rogers if you know what i'm saying yes i do and it annoys me i i feel like i'm getting diabetes listening to them because of the sweetness and the fake the fakeness and in fact i've heard unbelievers when they visit churches one of the things they have said is man i just can't get over that saccharine phony sweet attitude that many people have that greet you in the church i think you just described how now from evermore going to be describing joel osteen you're getting diabetes just listening to him yeah one of the things that is clear to me that that he cannot be a true teacher of god is that you cannot have a permanent smile affixed to your face if you're teaching the whole council of god yeah it just is totally inappropriate you know i mean there are many areas of the scriptures where a preacher should have a stern look on his face a look that clearly sends the signal of rebuke and an urgency and so on not that it should always be that way i think that there should be many occasions also where the pastor is beaming with smiles but when you only adopt one of those two extremes that's a bad case for uh i think improper homiletics yes well i appreciate being being on your show interviewing you but uh and you know we're going to air this on my podcast rap report so for my listeners for rap report listeners my encouragement is if you are not listening to iron sharpening iron you just got a little bit of a taste of the man behind the radio behind the microphone which we don't often get to see and by the way it's iron sharpens sharpened iron not iron sharpening sorry that was my stern rebuke for the day so so listen to iron sharpens iron radio uh either live or on podcast because it's available both iron sharpens iron radio .com

59:24

there you go and so i appreciate being able to come on finally and interviewing you without you turning although you did there was a point earlier where you you you're starting to turn it out really yeah you started asking me questions about do i know andy and i was like wait he's asking oh i was unconscious of that because i actually kept thinking man i think i'm mic hogging right now by the way i just not to interrupt you but did i complete an answer to a question just then when i was concluding okay yeah obviously people might tell in my tone of voice that i'm coming down with a cold again you do that every g3 as you get a cold i think it's the combination travel weather talking a lot there's lack of sleep lack of sleep but i i just want to say as a listener i really appreciate what you do the interviews you provide the informative questions you end up asking because it brings a lot out and is helpful to listeners like me on a wide variety of topics that i often don't think about thinking of but because you bring that out with your guests i start thinking about things and so it's i think it's that iron sharpens iron radio is something that is really essential for many christians most christians if not all to be listening to i'm glad that you're on traditional radio that you're maybe even that that hopefully could expand even larger because i think that as you and i both would be in this the same camp right we we need to get people thinking biblically about things of god and that's something that you really help bring out from people so i appreciate all the work that you've done on the radio and the encouragement you've been to me and to many others and i appreciate you because iron sharper design radio is really guest driven obviously if people listen to the show long enough they recognize that i don't hog the mic then if i do it's unintentional but i really want to give my guests a platform when they are being interviewed if i have a if i have a an expert on an issue as a guest on my program why would i want to interrupt him constantly uh if he is indeed the expert and and knows a lot more than i do about an issue i'd be foolish it's one of the things that used to drive me up a wall with uh bill o'reilly and uh people might think well who are you to insult bill o'reilly yet before his scandal he was like the most listened to talk show host in the united states well that i and i'm not taking away anything from his talents or abilities or gifts or success but i just can say that personally when listening to him i used to be upset when he would have an important guest on and constantly interrupt the person and act as if he knew more about the subject than the expert i'm sorry mr o'reilly if you're listening but he probably does listen i mean doesn't everyone listen i'm sure bill o'reilly doesn't even know i exist for people who may be listening first for a first time that profess to be christian you may not have to listen regularly to iron sharpens iron radio to be saved but why take the chance that's a great i think i would have put that on the banner i stole it from erwin lutzer but it still works for me he actually said about his broadcast he would say you know he said that about his church he'd always say you don't have to come to to be you may not have to come to be saved but why take the chance i'm hoping erwin was saying that in a jovial oh yes because i know that he's a calvinist yeah i actually got him to endorse james r white's book the potter's freedom which he loved he was very upset with norman geisler's horrible attack of calvinism and he couldn't erwin lutzer in fact i've never interviewed erwin lutzer i've got to get him on the show but uh i have i have always been impressed with erwin uh but um he was so excited to get his endorsement on it and he he was like the last one and he kept emailing me did i did i make the cut before the print you know before yep you got in there so well i appreciate being able to be on your radio show my ratio to or my podcast to be able to interview you i appreciate that and so i encourage folks to go out listen you can search for it on podcast at you could look just for iron sharpens iron or ironsharpensironradio .com

01:03:55

because if you just type in ironsharpensiron .com you're getting a golf website so well it's ironsharpensironradio .com

01:04:00

for podcasting that's how i sharpen that's how i found it on podcasts so if they do that but it's it's always a pleasure being with you get to talk with you every year when we're down here and you are such a blessing to the to me personally but also to the body of christ and one of the things before we go that uh i so appreciate about you is that one of the similarities that we have is it seems that our circle of friends extend far beyond specific precise theological uh expression or confession that we might have personally or in our congregations i'm not saying that we are loosely ecumenical with heretics or apostates but i mean it seems that the the the arms of friendship are broader than than many people might have and i i i see that in you even though you have very serious and strict convictions about many things that you it doesn't create a judgmental spirit and you are unnecessarily judgmental people beat up the word judgmental too much they do but uh i appreciate that so yeah and for those of our listeners who are listening to this interview on iron sharpens iron radio now let's get the striving for eternity ministries information sure um striving for eternities .org

01:05:22

is our website we just started up a christian podcast community which is basically we have a crazy idea i know i know you'll agree with this idea but it's a crazy idea getting christians to promote others and serve others rather than self it's crazy in christianity we kind of think it's biblical but but yeah so i have a podcast the rap report which can be found on any anywhere people listen to podcasts they can search for the rap report daily which is that two minute monday through friday one for people like shorter stuff and we have a if they go to christianpodcastcommunity .org

01:05:58

they can get the whole the whole bunch that we have and after g3 we're going to be opening up applications to other podcasters so we're really glad to see what god's doing in podcasting here's a crazy thing for you statistics wise there's over 600 ,000 podcasts right now 200 ,000 of them started last year wow so you think about how long podcasting has been out now you consider the fact that when you look at the categories religion and spirituality is the number one category twice the size of the next leading category and when you look in that christianity is the largest section but if you look in religion and spirituality who do you think is number one religion and spirituality the number one christian podcast yeah oh is it something that would make me smile or frown oh actually smile and we mentioned him a dividing line no no smile and we mentioned him oh joel jolstein joyce myers usually number two wow you have to go down like five or six before you get to grace to you ligonier or someone like that so so there's like so much growth in podcasting and yet within the christianity so much garbage and i have a guess that the garbage is so successful because you have multitudes of unregenerate people having their consciences salved about their sin when they hear people like joel olstein and others it's it's like they may have a prick of conscience that something that they're doing of the way that they're living is not correct and then when they listen to joel olstein wow i feel better now and i don't even have to repent or anything yes yeah so what we're looking to do i mean as you know striving attorneys and discipleship ministry right so we do we have our academy online and we have for people take free courses and we have our you know we come into churches and do seminars and preaching and things like that but this is another way of discipling we're discipling podcasters to produce better podcasts that's one of the things about why i'm always trying to learn from you on how to interview so i could help people when they're doing interviews but it's it really is a privilege to be always to be with you you're such a blessing yes thank you and i'm so sorry that i took so long to actually sit down with you and uh that was nothing intentional and it has just has to do with unforeseen things or well i realized i wasn't gonna i wasn't gonna be able to be sly with getting an interview and without you knowing it that i learned god bless you brothers it's always great to share a fellowship with you same to you god bless bye this podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church go to strivingforeternity .org

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