May 8, 2020 Show with Dr. James R. White on “To Meet or Not to Meet: That is the Question”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day of May 2020 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program once again one of my very favorite guests dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and he's also one of the pastors at Apologia Church and That would be alongside of Jeff Durbin Luke Pearson and Zack Morgan.

Today we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme to meet or not to meet. That is the question and one church's decision to continue meeting weekly for public worship amid Kovat 19 and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to on a trip in Zion radio my friend.

Dr. James R. White.

Yeah, you're right I.

Mean there were we got enough criticism as it was. In fact most of the criticism I got was for me that angelicals I. Can remember the guy that owned the Huntington Christian bookstore? When I brought in flyers for the very first debate on Mary.

He looked down at them Like I just had put a rat carcass on his counter and he looked up at me. He says you should be ashamed of yourself. I said, excuse me He says and a day made when we should be linking arms with our Catholic brothers.

You dare to have something like this I said well number one. You can't even tell by the flyer if it's a Catholic running this debate or a Protestant and number two both sides are represented. No, but anyway, it was weird to hear things like that from time to time.

Manichaeanism, Augustine, and the Spread of Religious Movements

But it's great to have you back on the show. And one of the things I wanted to say before we get into our theme is that I've been watching your series on Manichaeanism.

And.

Okay, be careful. Chris, I know you're fine.

Okay. No, I'm not going any near any of this stuff that you told the children to leave the room over. I'm just wondering. How is it that a Major religion actually caught on and became popular that was started by a guy named Manny.

I mean, it's like, you know, if a religion was started by a guy named Scooter or Skippy I. Just I was actually bursting out laughing when you actually said who the person was. I thought Manichaeanism was going to be.

Involving some other word or name but not many but no. Well, obviously it'd be around Iran and places like that. So their names are going to be different than what we are accustomed to but no, it's the it.

Actually, it was it grew very large, I mean Augustine was a Manichaean here for nine years and Was very attractive until the Romans Decided it was bad news that that actually helped it as often happens in the past happened to Christianity, too but it sounds crazy because We are used to the background that we understand.

But if you live in a day where astrology was everything the idea that that strange path up in the sky those strange lights in the sky were actually Light leaving the earth and going they basically argued that Unlike those Christians that say you have to believe first will do it and then you can believe later on.

So Yeah. The history of religious movements in the world is rather fascinating. It really is. Well, the reason we're here today is to discuss.

Your the or should I say the church. I almost said your church and I don't know if you've ever Had Bill Shishko reprimand you but every time I say that and I still Mistakenly say it in his presence. I'll say something like so.

How's everything going at your church? It's not my church. It's the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ but at Apology a church. Well, first of all Before I even go into the theme, why don't you tell our listeners something about apology a church that may be unfamiliar with it.

Well, yeah about ten years ago. Just started a church these folks, you know, they hear the gospel from Jeff. Jeff was very straightforward. He told the people at the church or as people is going to have an impact upon them.

He had great success. They let him do it. The people would leave the hospital. Where are they supposed to go a little bit to have those kinds of? people in their midst. In a very very unusual Context.

I'm not sure. That's the first book. I'd recommend anybody. Honestly, he knew me from our outreach to Mormons out in Mesa, Arizona. He had come out there as a very very young man a few months ago. Well about a year ago that The Mormons and he's wearing these loud plaid Pants red red like Scottish red plaid had to do is just turn around.

I just I just looked at his. You've ever seen me look at you that way Chris.

Or any time you see me and you have a comment about my attire just like yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Because I've never seen color combinations like that and it causes migraines but. But yeah, I did that to him and he literally turned around went home and changed without me saying. So he was a very young man at the time and so I had a lot to do with being a a former theological formation shall we say and so I've been on apology radio a few times and then he started by me to come speak at apology at church and I had done that numerous times and they we still rent from other facilities.

We don't have our own building. And as a result meet in the afternoon on Sunday Four o 'clock. There's one fairly lengthy. Obviously, we've grown last weekend, you know,. Wow amazing.

What is the number now of babies that have been saved total weight?

Well, I thought what literally about. Wow, really? Oh, yeah. It's just been fast fantastic. I mean, it's so great to now now we're starting to get pictures from years ago so if you can see you know that type of thing and and so I mean and the Lord's done some amazing things that I'm not sure if you watched Jeff Story about his son Augustin.

Yes. Just just amazing things going on there. And you know, that's that was a miracle. Oh, it's no miracle and and out of obedience to being willing to adopt these children and to do these things. So it's a I never expected to be there, but the Lord Had his own plans and so I ended up there in November of 20 and it didn't take long before.

We realized that I was sort of already functioning as an elder. So I became the fourth of last year so I'm sorry the elder to the elders because I'm 16, I'm really the the older guy and. But it's been great because the younger guys have so much energy and these guys are sold out to ministry.

They're sold out to the people. They're they're just there's great brothers and trying to keep up with the young guys. In fact, Jeff communication is in test and he's like man. I'm almost done with this LDS.

We're doing this three and a half hour LDS Documentation that we documentary that we've been shooting for how long last year and into where the Book of Mormon was published did all this Kind of stuff and he's getting really close.

Did you be able to do Sunday? Thank you, I gotta get that I'm like, yep. Yep. That's that's what I'm here for that's what I'm here for so I'll be preaching Sunday out of Philippians chapter 3 and I love doing that and.

So I preached Sunday of Sunday Easter Sunday, and we had a had a good group.

Yeah, but I just quickly this is an abbreviated version I have to just quickly tell our listeners can't leave him hanging about that miracle. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, sure.

I'm sorry. I didn't I I didn't want to you know take away from everything else, but. Yeah, it's hard not to give all the background information. Not that that's not public it is but basically, there was a chain of simply supernatural events.

A woman approached us. Who needs baby by the ultrasound possibly a real? He wasn't be able to keep this child. The state would be taking the child and placing the child in some type of situation and Through.

Amazing. And his wife who Jeff is a 16 years younger than I am, but he's a grandfather. He's a grandfather. It's it's. It's hard for grandparents to go back and be changing diapers and especially to have a special needs child that that would be in In it what what would what would happen? with that child, but Helping with it, I'm sorry I've already did the divine line for an hour and a half of.

Help me with the name of the disease I've for summary it starts on a Bifida. Thank you. It's fine a Bifida have those see doesn't have to see anywhere in it. That's problem. Have the the ultrasound of the spine Outside of the spinal outside the body literally extending outside, right?

And this was supposedly one of the worst forms of yeah.

Yeah, real real real bad real bad and it was it was gonna be they they had the the Suite ready with the with the doctors for the because as soon as the baby is born straight into surgery. The the months worth of surgeries before he'd be able to come home and and so on and so forth the money.

Once he decided to do it, we raised the money for the adoption I think in about eight hours if I recall correctly I put it on my social media accounts and about eight hours who raised the money for the adoption.

And so just all sorts of stuff and going even his name it was amazing how all that came together and then I was one of the first people to find out about this because Jeff left The room when the baby was born outside to get the elders the first people to hear this story there forget it.

He's like guys. I I and we're like, well, yeah, I'm sure he is Describing the doctors who are just flipping the baby over and they're looking at the ultrasound and they're and they're they're going. This isn't possibly.

And they're literally checking the mother's name band, right? Are we in the wrong room? They they have they to this day have absolutely positively no explanation whatsoever. It's fine. There is absolutely nothing.

No spinal bifida saying he's even if it's together in the womb and Her and grandmother. With baby grandchildren. I mean, you know, they're they're little babies themselves saying we are think about this Jeff was prepared to have to catheter.

Okay, that's that's what you're talking about and They're willing to do that. And then the baby comes out and the baby is absolutely perfectly. Well, nothing wrong with them.

Hey, it's good and you can see that video.

Somewhere if you get a probably probably apology apology at church or.

Apology at church .com is the website for the church. There was a couple in the congregation where I was First saved and first the member where Mike Gadosz was a pastor in Amityville Calvary Baptist Church, which no longer exists because it merged with First Baptist Church American became grace reform Baptist Church.

But that at that Calvary Baptist Church, there was a young couple who were told were urged By their doctor to get an abortion Because the baby she was carrying would certainly be an Asexual dwarf and likely severely brain damaged.

They refused to get the abortion. The baby was born completely normal now whether or not that was a miracle of God or some kind of really horrible mistake on the doctor's point and the part but Whichever way that the Lord worked in that situation.

It was truly amazing. Yeah, but apology at church Has never ceased to meet even after the excuse me the corona virus pandemic broke out and became global news and All over the world people began a hearing from their governing authorities that they had to cease and desist from public gatherings over ten people and In fact, I was I always was thinking I can't tell if this is a command a demand a Requirement or if it's just a suggestion I could it was very ambiguous the way the wording was.

But you folks didn't When you heard about this Did you have a meeting and say it was it like an instantaneous thing that?

We're definitely not going to stop meeting or was it take some discussion or and because it happened Is this a command force of law? When it first started happening immediately being cited from the legislature or some like everybody often sticking.

Obviously one of the first thing a city of millions of people my fellow elders the fact that we however we handle this. We need to make sure that people understand congregation need is going to make us speciality.

Was that from the beginning. We felt that that we made this decision within the context of living City that I don't think you've ever been to Phoenix. Have you. I've never been to Arizona at all. You can get in a car five miles per hour and an hour and a half later.

You'll still be in the valley. You'll be in the south east corner of the valley, but you'll still be there. It's extremely spread out. Extremely spread out. It's massive any meaningful public. You can't get anywhere that way.

We have a lot of space here basically and so it's not like being in Manhattan or even Long Island for that more spaces between how we. We looked at the information. We tried to look at the information.

But from the beginning we've we've we've felt like things just don't quite add up. We listened to what was being said by the by the we didn't know it's Jeff. But then we started digging into it. Tremendous included it was never like or New York or the big leftist that was not said.

There was not having more than ten people gather. But there was no mandate that said that was left as in I think in most places on that subject how to apply God's law. Love your neighbor. Love your neighbor.

So we're used to hearing love your neighbor. We're not used to hearing that from the government. And when the government starts you remember I remember somebody else who closed in the Bible out of context.

So from the beginning we were like, well, yeah love your neighbor, but This looks like it could really cause a tremendous amount of Not just disruption, but long-term damage that could have real not just economic Impacts on people but and this could cause more death down the road than it than it than it would in the short term.

This is this does not seem wise at all. And so we're looking at all that stuff. But then you have to combine that with the fact that we have a real strong commitment. Remember how where apology it came from as the body for food music and worship, but Worship is proclamation tend to be a little long.

Jeff goes longer than I do. But when you only have one service you in fact, I knew that you were serious.

About joining apology a church even before you became an elder there when you started to change the way you pronounced it.

I Had fun with it with the pronunciation because it should be a poly GIA, but yeah. Yeah, no, there's only only so far that joke jokes can only work so many times as you know. So go even though I can still read Greek a proper appropriately.

I like the way you said as you know to me. Well, you're you're uh, everybody's always said you could go out on the road if you want. Number three. They're starting to smell like yesterday's socks. So you just.

So anyway, but we have a strong commitment to The the gathering of the body and one apology and then I had just done a series. You can't do that online. You know, we actually heard about people trying to do Lords up right?

That's something that requires the fellowship the Saints and so. We looked at what was being said, oh you can't do this we just suggest you don't do this. We obviously not to hug which is really hard for our group because even me so yeah, that's pretty remarkable development on your Development but so and then you know, we immediately started thinking about what what do we do?

Not nothing. It should be mentioned. I am one of the oldest. I think there's two other guys I think that are are older than I am. In fact, if you listen to civilization got a couple eights and a huge we.

We already had some of the advantage weak game. Yeah, my friend Bob Cameron who is now with the Lord for eternity. He.

Pastored an Orthodox Presbyterian Church that Originally began as a Reformed Episcopal Church and his was the first other than when I was a Catholic, of course. His was the first evangelical church that.

Regularly practiced the Lord's Supper that way, right, right. Well, I've always liked it because Biblically when Paul says you when you do this you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Well, I'd like people to be able to see that I'm doing that and so I getting up and being active great.

I think it's wonderful and it's also takes the temptation away from an unbeliever when you're passing a tray right in front of him. He may not want to be embarrassed.

And he takes the elements anyway, right because we do guard the table and explain that beforehand and by the way and this started after I but we also Like-minded church that you not partake of the table either to honor the discipline of we do that as well.

But that did give us an advantage because what we do Is we have the line form in the back? Everybody gets their their hand sanitizer and then comes if you touch it you take it. So who made a profession of faith they partake of the supper, please get the bread and wine for them.

Well, can you imagine Peter at the at the last supper saying hey, hey pal. Touch it you take it. Okay.

Yeah leaning back on somebody there was no social distancing going on. Nor could there be at a table that was actually only about four four inches off the floor. So Yeah, I get it but You know, we we've had that was an advantage that we had.

We what we also did is we expand us or digging a piece of bread out of other pieces of bread. So we did also one so we tried to put some some thought into it to you know. Because look the reality is what a lot of churches are facing is you've got a lot of differences of opinion.

You've got a lot of very frightened people you've got. You've got people all and every church has to try to deal with. So that's what we that's what we were doing. What's interesting was We lost our place to meet as a result decide they didn't like what we were doing and that was how long ago one day.

Without any warning. I both know we're still meeting. Over on the other side of the valley. I mean apology and normally meets on the east side of the valley. I'm a West Sider. I've been driving a long way.

I am on the west side of the valley. But they have Continued meeting a few days, which is not easy to do because you've got it. You've got insurance all the rest is that you got to take care of. We managed to move from Monday getting kicked to the curb to Sunday meeting at another location on the other side of the valley where we've been meeting.

But that ends at the end of May and well the mother. Obviously we're there to be a lot of buildings available in the near in the near future. And I don't I'm not necessarily sure if it'll be church buildings.

Sadly, there's gonna be a lot of businesses that are opening up again and everything else. We should be able to find a place because I can assure you at this time of the year in Phoenix. We do meet in a in a party happening at my my home thermometer showed a hundred and ten point six yesterday.

So that gives you an idea of what it's like in Phoenix right now. So yeah, no, we're not a small church. We had a really big group on Sunday, I'd say we had 75 visitors on on Sunday. Wow I think the word I think there are a lot of people that are that want to go to church and they want to sing and they they want to hear the word preached and.

And stuff like that and they found out oh, there's still some place to go and Sunday. We had we had two we had two cups left for the Lord suffered. Yeah, we're sitting there Luke and I Help with the we're gonna make it and then so yeah, it was it was obviously not all of our people have been coming partly because.

When you have ten kids and it's a 30-minute drive each direction. That's a problem partly because of concerns and we don't have any problem with that. I fully understand that trying to but we are convinced that it is important for the church to meet.

We're we believe that the gathered body is important. We recognize there would be situated the plague. We are not saying everyone should get together and die together of the plague. We're not saying that but kovat 19 is not the place and I think the numbers at the end are going to show that.

And if this was London during the Blitzkrieg Air raid coming no one's saying well, we all need to be in one place. So one bomb can take us all at the same time. We're not we're not saying that. We're saying that it seemed to us and it has continued to seem to us.

That there is some major overreaches the state seems to be saying. Oh, okay. All right. We'll let you get back together. But only about 10 of you at a time and you can't sing and you can't have this whatever you call this Lord's Supper Eucharist, but everything everything you all do you can't do that either.

And in light of the direction that people are going. Directions that our societies are going. That we have basically Whatever you say they're going to be.

Love Your Neighbor, Ecclesiology, and the Church's Gathering

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That's NAS Bible calm to place your order. Welcome back if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. We are discussing to meet or not to meet. That is the question and one church's decision to continue meeting weekly for public worship amid kovat 19 and James.

I don't know if you have Experienced this but this issue.

Among.

Like-minded people theologically is Next to music. I think the most divisive issue I've ever witnessed. You people very often are saying if you are on one side or the other.

The.

Opposing view. Those that embrace the opposing view on whether to not to meet are very very Involved very much involved in deep sin here.

Well, yeah, and I see that as sorry thing no matter no matter how clearly we say otherwise or house is not what we've majority except for last Sunday's Continuation are already doing we recruit Jeff has been in Matthew for us, especially in Matthew chapter 24.

But we had stepped out for a little while to do something out of Philippians just simply person back and we've been continuing that I mean, that's what I'll be doing on Sunday now on this past sermon to Governor Ducey of the state of challenging there was nobody asleep.

And like I said, it was very very useful thing rather than feel my my biggest concern about How all of this has been handled not to reality is that for example, I think it's already been demonstrated that when you Flatten one curve you need to realize a couple is the relationship article yesterday about someone saying that in light of what has happened with The lockdowns there's going to be a tremendous increase in tuberculosis integration will have a plan things like that Connected into and instead of thinking only six months down the year Down the down the road.

What about a year two years five years ten years not to drag you into this but I of nation I Are given powers they never give them back reminded of the the very that says the one saying the other how I feel.

Because way I just will say that there was the development. It seemed quite quickly on this subject phraseology of love your neighbor was sufficient buying a line around a Subset of neighbors rather than all neighbors time you you just simply simplify a biblical phrase rather than going.

Okay. What does that mean obviously love of love of neighbor is an overarching principle that has to be applied in many many difficult and complex situation once it turns into a slogan that you intend meaning that a an orthodox develop gonna be.

Let's say we are able to finally six months from now. And I'm not even certain that this is the case but six months from now able to meet. You see can you see? Voluntarily not have holiday celebration, right?

I I think that's a logical thing to in 2020. Why wouldn't it happen in 20 because of the size of the crowds being exactly exactly. Yeah. Yeah I can I can see that happening and I can see certain governors who go Do you really need to do this this eating thing this supper thing do you really need to do that?

I mean, let's let's not do that. And the fact is a lot of the mainstream Churches would go along. They wouldn't have any problem with that. They they they they don't have any type of idea of obedience To a command anyways, it's just something we did.

Why not? And so all of these are things that of course, we've been thinking about we're not gonna sit here and claim Hey, we saw this coming and you didn't know we didn't we've we've simply been looking at the situation as it's been developing and Trying to follow a particular principle.

Actually, this is the time when our people need exposure to the Word of God and One another and encouragement and one another not the other way around. Like I said if this if we had indication that this was something like the plague.

This was this was Ebola mutated or something like that then obviously that would have to be taken into consider the facts say otherwise and they have said that from the beginning and if people were willing to somewhat against some of the Well the mob to be pretty awesome there has been a mob and yes churches are influenced by mobs, too.

And I think a lot of people are starting to think about it when it first started. It was this would be a couple weeks, you know Ted Cruz Self-quarantined for 14 days. So 14 days, you know, it's a couple weeks.

You're gonna help out. You're gonna show how you want to love your neighbor 14 days and then 14 days passes. It's a month and and know the curves not flattened yet and and this this this and this changed rather rapidly going well, I'm glad we we sort of stuck to our guns because We haven't haven't gone down that find ourselves in a situation now of having told everybody Yeah, we're going to do this and then going well now we're not going to do this and well why what's changed?

Because the narrative the public narrative.

Negative is it possibly could be and we have to go unfortunately to our midway break already. I'm sorry folks I know that it's annoying with a lot of ads, but it's the only way we could remain on the air is through these advertisements.