November 21, 2016 Show with Ian Clary on “Pentecostal Outpourings: Revival and the Reformed Tradition (Part 2)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron

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Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 21st day of November 2016

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I'm delighted to have as a guest today for the very first time ever. Dr.

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Ian Clary Research and teaching fellow for the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies teacher at Redeemer University College Heritage College and Seminary and Munster Bible College an associate pastor and elder at West Toronto Baptist Church We're going to be following up on a topic.

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We began last Wednesday with Bob smart Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reform tradition

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Both Dr. Smart and dr. Clary contributed to this book along with other authors and Today we are going to be picking up on dr.

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Clary's contribution to this book melting the ice of a long winter revival and Irish descent and It is my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron.

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Dr. Ian H Clary Thank you, I Talk to you here from the very cold climate of Toronto, Ontario, and it's a real pleasure to be here on the show with you

02:34

Thank you. Hey, it's my pleasure to have you on the program and I'm very eagerly looking forward to getting into this subject at hand

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But before we do that, I want to announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with questions

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It's Chris Arntz and at gmail .com Chr is

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Arn z n at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA and You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because of something you're asking that involves a personal and private matter

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Since we do have a pastor as a guest but other than that, we would urge you to please at least identify yourself by name city state and country

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And that's Chris Arntz and at gmail .com before I even get into the subject at hand of Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reform tradition

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I'd like to know something about your own personal background how you came

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To faith in Jesus Christ what the religious upbringing if any that you had

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Was and etc, if you could Before I do

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I do want to say that the pastor that I work with here in Toronto is actually from Westchester County in New York and When he heard that I was on the show, he was quite excited about it because he used to go

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To hear debates that you I guess would set up with. Yeah white and so when

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I told him I'm on the show He thought I hit the big time Associate pastor, but I can wear some big shoes for No, I'm Very very happy to talk about how the

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Lord is has worked in in my life I grew up in Windsor Ontario, which is right across the border on the

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Canadian side from Detroit, Michigan So part of me is that my growing up I've always had a certain affinity to to the

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United States and felt sometimes more American than I did Canadian But growing up in Windsor in a nominal

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Christian home my my mother at the time She's a believer now but at the time of my growing up was a nominal

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Anglican and my father at last Catholic and So I grew up in that that period of time where?

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The tail end in Canada where you would still recite the Lord's Prayer Where I can remember my my grade three teacher mrs.

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Green Reading Bible stories to us in in class and so had a

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Some sort of a Christian sensibility about about things knew the basic stories of the

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Bible But really did not, you know have any firm teaching of it in my home. We didn't regularly attend church

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So it wasn't until I was 18 where after a you know a life in high school of partying and and doing stupid things teenagers do

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That a friend of mine who his father was a Baptist minister in Windsor Invited me up to a cottage in in Northern, Ontario where I heard the gospel really for the first time and And and the

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Lord used him to draw me to himself and I can very clearly remember sitting around a campfire

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With this friend as he's sharing through the gospel of John Telling me, you know my

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I stand and my need for a Savior and the Lord just grabbing me and and pulling me to himself and You know,

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I can even though I'm 38 and I would have been about 18 at the time so that's 20 years ago I can remember it like it was yesterday.

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It was a really really precious time Well, praise God for that. Yeah Well, when did you realize that God was giving you a call to become a pastor?

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Well, that's a it's both a hard and easy question to answer I Very early on in that after my conversion.

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I had discerned some sense of a calling to ministry, I really didn't know what that looked like and The the friend that I mentioned who had shared the gospel with me

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His dad had really pushed it on me that he thought he saw something That needed to be pursued and so I had initially

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Thought about going and getting training in Toronto at Tyndale University College and seminary and For whatever reason

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I just had even though I had signed up for that. I had real hesitations and ended up holding off only to find out that Heritage College Which is the

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Baptist College in Cambridge, Ontario were starting an extension center in my hometown of Windsor So I started taking courses.

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They're really Having no idea what I was going to do just exploring things and very sadly in the midst of all that the friend who had led me to the

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Lord his dad had unfortunately a moral failing in ministry and that blew up the church and the friend that led me to the

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Lord is the hand of the faith and That really just put an even more fervent desire in me to really understand what

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I believed. So Through that early process of going to school and my friend losing his faith at the same time my parents

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Separating the Lord just really, you know drove home into my heart things like his sovereignty

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His love for me in the cross and it's there that I had first encountered reformed theology and once once I sort of started to read about, you know, the doctrines of grace in books like Chosen by God by R .C.

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Sproul or Jim Boyce's one whatever happened in the gospel of grace My whole framework and my old way of thinking just changed.

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I really really wanted to dive into theology for all of those reasons and one of the professors that came in the early 2000s to teach at our extension center in Windsor was

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Michael Hagen and He came and taught an intensive course over a series of weekends on church history and he started at the

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Reformation and worked his Way through to the 20th century ending with Lloyd -Jones And I'll tell you by the time

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I got through the end of that course I was absolutely enamored with you know, Reformation history and the

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Puritans and just from that Time I really felt a desire to want to know more about them and to study them and then but at the same time was was serving in another local church and loving being with people and helping

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God's people loving to preach and I Basically embarked on about a 10 -year journey of trying to discern really what was my calling and it was very difficult time

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You know, I in that interim I got married to my wife Vicki We moved to Toronto where I started to work with Michael Hagen when he became principal of Toronto Baptist Seminary so I worked with him for a number of years as his assistant traveled with him and got to see his

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His piety and spirituality firsthand, which was really shaping got to experience his, you know academic expertise in my life that really has shaped me also as a writer and a historian and Just pursued my education with really no idea what

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I was going to do coming out the other end of it so it was it was hard and I just basically tried one degree at a time and kept serving in the church and hoping that the

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Lord would would lead and guide and and then the last couple of years is through various providences has

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Led me to a point where I felt confident that the Lord was actually calling me to full -time academic life as a historian and And Still with one foot firmly planted in the life of the church like I'm doing now

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I'm associate pastor, but really wanting to pursue writing and really wanting to pursue teaching and And so that's that's what

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I'm hoping to do Well, tell us something about The West Toronto Baptist Church where you are now the associate pastor

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Yeah, it's a it's one of the healthiest churches I've ever been in I'm sitting in my office here right now and and just you know looking around and and being so thankful To God that in his kindness.

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He brought me here. I first came to Toronto in about 2000 2003 There weren't a lot of really, you know overly solid churches there's a handful of good churches and a number of good leaders and I was studying and working at Toronto Baptist Seminary and And at the time looking on the horizon

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Around the city. I it was just not a lot to really You know put a lot of confidence in and over the last more than 10 years.

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There's been a really Encouraging movement of God's Spirit Where churches are being planted by solid pastors where ministries are being started

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I mean every every power to change ministry, which is crew in the States These to be campus for Christ on all of our campuses and in Toronto So at York and Ryerson and University of Toronto all very solid and Other churches that were dying or being revived by by good pastors

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It's just been incredible to see and part of of that that that broader narrative of revitalization

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Is West Toronto Baptist Church, it's a church that's part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches of Canada It was founded in 1927 the same year that Toronto Baptist Seminary was started so it was founded in the fundamentalist modernist controversies which raged in Toronto because of Pastor at Jarvis Street Baptist Church named

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T .P. Shields. So our church was birthed in that that crucible and When when the current pastor

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Justin Galati first came seven years ago, it was a church that Had shrunken in size

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But not in vitality. There was a good number of senior saints that were here

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There the pastor that was an older man had retired and these senior

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Saints Knew that they wanted a younger man to come in with a young family to try to revitalize the church

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It had a good standing. It's in the community. It had, you know, the resources to do things and The many of these people are retired pastors and retired missionaries who have a really really strong sensibility for gospel work and So Justin and I had gone to Toronto Baptist Seminary together and when he graduated he moved back to To New York and was trying to discern a call.

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He'd been accepted to To a THM at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville and just as he was about to go he got a call from the search committee here at this church and He just really felt the

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Lord pressing upon him that he needed to come back to Toronto and so he did and over the last seven years as he has really brought this church from a period of revitalization to maybe in the last year or two a

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Place of real health and it's been amazing because those senior Saints have all stayed and and Many now

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Younger Christians are coming young families. There's a real mix in terms of ethnic diversity in terms of age demographics and We just had a our annual business meeting at the church yesterday and it was just amazing now to see as pastors just how unified our churches and really

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Wanting to do things the gospel not not just in our neighborhood, but across the world. And so so it's been amazing and and I I've been involved in a church plant called

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New City Baptist in downtown, Toronto and Another friend of mine had been pastoring a small

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Chinese church and he asked me to help them They were called Bridgeway Covenant Church. He asked me to help them they were kind of struggling mostly young people but 20 people left and Asked to kind of give it one last kick at the can to see if we could make a go of it and And I just realized after about six months of sort of interim pastoring for them that You know, it would be a real blessing to a to another church if the 20 of us could just urge instead of closing down really just shifting ourselves over to another church and So through a period of searching out what church that might be

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They they decided that they want to merge with with this one West Toronto Baptist So we hope three or four years ago all together this

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Chinese Church and myself merged with West Toronto and And that was just part of a real boost

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For this church as an influx of younger people came all at once. We were all solid reformed with a real gospel zeal and It really did a lot to boost the energies of this church and So I slowly came on to staff and then once I kind of got to know the other people in the church

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And they felt confident in me This past April. I was ordained in our denomination and and Brought on as an associate pastor and work with Justin.

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So yeah, it's just been it's just been Such a such an incredible thing to see in God's providence how everything worked together says churches splitting

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It was it was great to be able to see two churches actually come together And I really

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I was really privileged to be a part of that. Well, praise God for that. Yes the church that I left when

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I moved to Pennsylvania Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

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That was the result of a merge also back in 1995

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which was a reformed Baptist Church that was busting through the walls because we

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Were outgrowing the size of the facility that we had There was a church about 25 minutes away first Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island and That pastor had come to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, but he had the opposite problem.

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He had a Building that could hold close to 500 people. It only had about 20 people attending the church

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So we the pastors of both churches Got together and said why don't we merge and that's exactly what we did and we became

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Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island and that was a church that I Had been at since my conversion to Christ this going back to the

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville Congregation in the mid -1980s and just left there for the first time

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Four years ago when I moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania so I know something about the blessings of mergers and and I want to make sure that I give the audience the website for West Toronto Baptist Church if anybody is either

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Listening who lives in Toronto and is looking for a church home or if you're visiting Toronto. I know many

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People all over the United States and other parts of the world visit Toronto for various reasons whether for vacation or business but that website is

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WTBC for West Toronto Baptist Church WTBC Actually, it's

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WTB church is a better way of saying it WTB for West Toronto Baptist and then church .com

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and I hope that you do get eventually some visitors as a result. I also want to give Ian's personal website.

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It's in Hugh Clary and he spells in I a n and Hugh is hugh clary c l a r y dot wordpress .com

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That's I a n hugh c l a r y dot wordpress .com

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Well now we come to the book that we have started addressing last

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Wednesday with Bob smart Pentecostal outpourings Revival in the reform tradition and as I did with Bob perhaps you could clarify the title because people might wrongly think

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By from that title that you are addressing in this book specifically the movement known as Pentecostal ism

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The Pentecostal denominations like the Assembly of God the Church of God, etc

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But that is not the case You're referring to the actual event in the scripture that is being used as an adjective, correct?

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Exactly. Yeah, we we we had long discussions about about the The title and what what would best fit in terms of both being able to inform potential readers as to what you know

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This book is actually about Yet at the same time have something of a broader appeal

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Then then, you know just the reform tradition and so we thought that there would be

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Something that would catch people's eye and even just in the title itself kind of give a bit of teaching that you know, there are other views of the spirit especially in reform theology how that relates to things like revival and You know,

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I think that there are times where people might look at Reformed thinking and it may be, you know

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I'm wrongly accused of not having a strong teaching of the spirit And so we wanted to in all those ways address those kinds of concerns.

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And so Pentecostal outpouring, you know Referencing so the analogy that we can find in scripture in in acts is the repeated outpourings of the spirit

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And yet at the same time also with the subtitle wanting to emphasize the historical work looking at how the spirit has been poured out in history specifically with various reform groups both in North America and Yes, and I've interviewed in the past a number of these authors and different on different subjects

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Michael Haken Has been a guest on this program several times and I have interviewed

21:41

Bob smart obviously last week I've interviewed Tom Nettles a number of times.

21:46

Oh good, particularly regarding things involving Calvinistic Baptists of history obviously and dr.

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Joel Beakey has been on the program many times Yeah, I go back a long time with dr.

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Beakey. I was the first person to get him seriously Involved in Attempting to launch a radio ministry

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Because the old denomination that he belonged to didn't believe in using radio

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Yes, the Netherlands reformed denomination and one of the reasons he left that denomination but along with other

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Members of that group and formed the heritage Netherlands reformed right the nomination which is more commonly known today is just the head the heritage reformed church but quite an impressive group of Co -authors, and I hope to interview all of them eventually

22:42

Well, I mean, you know, let me speak for a moment. Just to dr.

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Beakey He's a man that I have immense respect for Amen, remember being a younger

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Christian just working with dr. Hagen at the very beginning of our Professional working relationship together and dr.

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Hagen, of course teaches at Puritan reform seminary And so I had taken a trip with him while he he did a week -long course on prayer and Really got to see dr.

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Beakey firsthand, here's a man that you know his books I'm reading and I have this sort of awe -filled respect for and Getting to go into his home and have dinner with him and his family

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Just seeing him as a as a family man somebody who was serving us all

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You know meals actually scooping food onto our plates, you know, we're going around the table and have demonstrating this found spirits, you know third servant spirit and I've spent a number of Different occasions spent time with him and just been really

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Struck at how humble and how gracious he is and just the fact that he was willing to publish our book and he's contributed to it

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Budding historian I'm Yeah, amen, and I can say as a reformed

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Baptist that One of the things that I am very impressed By dr.

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Beakey Over is the fact that even though he is a Pato Baptist He has a very strong belief that children are a mission field.

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They're not to be Taken for granted as if they are regenerate born -again individuals just because they are the children of Christian parents and That's one of the things that I really am impressed about him and he's one of the finest preachers

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I've ever heard In fact, he he came out back in the 90s to grace reform

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Baptist Church at my invitation to speak at a Bible conference that we held there and Just really been enjoying

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His ministry for many years. In fact, I was very Surprised pleasantly surprised one day when

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I worked for WMCA radio 570 a .m. In New York, which is one of the affiliates of the largest

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Christian network radio network in the world Salem Communications. I remember being surprised one day when

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I was listening to the radio and I tuned on during the typical slot for Focus on the family which at the time was being hosted by dr.

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James Dobson and I'm hearing dr Beeky preaching and I was like startled pleasantly startled.

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I was like, I don't understand this What did dr. Beeky somehow take over the focus on the family slot or something and then at the end of the program?

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James Dobson much to my surprise said and that was dr. Joel Beeky. Why my wife's very favorite preacher

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I Thought you're gonna say as well to your earlier point about his view of Infant the other thing

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I appreciate about dr. Beeky is that though there are certain, you know corners in the reformed world that The Pato Baptist reformed world that would look at Baptists and accuse us of not really truly being reformed

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You know, dr. Beeky has not modeled that Mentality the fact that he has people like Michael Hagen speaking at the

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RTS teaching there, you know I think they gave a very close relationship with other

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Baptists like Jeff Thomas and Wales. Yes, and You know so you can you can maintain your your convictions and your denominational distinctives while at the same time, you know recognizing that the stream of reformed theology is quite diverse and We Baptists are as much a part of that as Netherlands or heritage other ones were formed or PCA or whomever else.

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So I that's another thing. I'm really thankful for Yes, I've also gotten to really enjoy

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Dr. David Murray. Yes, who's on the faculty at Puritan reformed theological seminary and actually have developed a friendship with him and He really reached out to me in a very deeply meaningful way after my wife went home to the

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Lord Back in 2011 and I just really cherish

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Knowing him and it's just good to see that the Lord is making these folks more well -known globally and Making use of them in far -reaching areas

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And we are going to go to our first break right now If you would like to join us on the air with a question for Ian Clary It could be a general question on Reformed theology about his own testimony or church, but it could also primarily

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Be about the book we are discussing Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reformed tradition and even more specifically on the chapter that Dr.

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Clary contributed to the book That's melting the ice of a long winter revival and Irish descent

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And we're going to be discussing that when we return from the break. Our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris a r n Z e n at gmail .com

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Don't go away. We will be right back with dr E and H Clary right after these messages from our sponsors, so don't go away

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Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James white to tell you why hi

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I'm James white of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor

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Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

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Gospel grace and glory for more details go to g3 conference .com.

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That's g3 conference Thanks James make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there

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forward slash iron sharpens today Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

32:06

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Where am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man?

32:12

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi. I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

32:19

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

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Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

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Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

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Apostles priority, it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and Vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

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Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace

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or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

33:26

Welcome back This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr

33:32

Ian H Clary research and teaching fellow for the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies Teacher at Redeemer University College Heritage College and Seminary and Munster Bible College an associate pastor and elder at West Toronto Baptist Church, we're going to be addressing today part two of a theme we began last

33:53

Wednesday with Bob smart Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reform tradition, which is a book published by Reformation Heritage Books and Our guest today dr.

34:05

Ian H. Clary is one of the editors and contributing authors of The book and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

34:13

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com And you know before I go on to the subject at hand,

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I would like to know a little bit about the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies Well the

34:28

Andrew Fuller Center Originally started here in Toronto under dr.

34:33

Hagen Michael Hagen's leadership it was originally entitled the Jonathan Edwards Center for Reformed Spirituality and So my actual initial involvement with dr.

34:46

Hagen before I worked with him at TBS was with this

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Edwards Center and so for a number of years here in Toronto, we set up annual conferences and We published a journal called

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Eusebia and that dealt with question, you know issues predominantly in terms of church history

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And so I was an editor with him on that journal for for this Center and when dr.

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Hagen I believe was around 2007 took a full -time position at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Though he still teaches here in Toronto at TBS.

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He's now full -time down there at Louisville He took the Center with him I had gone on to pursue to finish a

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Master of Theology and then PhD and and so when he brought the

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Edwards Center to Kentucky the name was changed to the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies and One of the big reasons for that was dr.

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Hagen's own love for all things Andrew Fuller so Andrew Fuller was a

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Baptist pastor and theologian in England in the 18th century he was one of the sort of Catalysts for the modern missionary movement behind William Carey who of course went to Serampore, India So Fuller was involved with the

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Baptist Missionary Society as its secretary traveling all over the UK gaining support for the

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BMS while Carey and the others were there in India and He was involved in denominational life

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Revived what was then a dying Baptist denomination in England? they had really for years been suffering under the the cold chill of hyper

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Calvinism and Fuller himself Grew up under a hyper

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Calvinist preacher but then through various readings in the reformed tradition none the least the writings of Jonathan Edwards came to understand the meaning of the free offer of the gospel and that revolutionized his own life his own ministry and then as he partnered with what became men who became very close friends of his like John Ryland jr.

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And John Sutcliffe and Samuel Pierce as well as William Carey they basically lit the

37:15

Baptist denomination on fire with the gospel and and so Fuller You know was it was a denominational man was a local church and was a worldwide mission man and he wrote a lot of very important works not the least his book on the question of the free offer of the gospel and and hyper

37:36

Calvinism called the gospel worthy of all Acceptation that came up two different editions in his lifetime and and so his works are

37:45

Collected in various editions the the most common one that we know of today is the the three volumes sprinkle

37:51

Publications edition banner of truth did a a reprint in a single massive volume

37:57

There's also a little there's another five volume works out there But Andrew Fuller Center is involved in what's called the

38:03

Andrew Fuller works project that is now doing a critical edition I can't remember how many volumes.

38:10

It's gone to have 15 or 17 volumes or something something significant But it'll be a critical edition of Fuller's works

38:18

Published under the general editorship of Michael Hagen with an advisory board that includes historians like Crawford Gribben in Ireland Doug Sweeney at Ted's John Coffey at the

38:31

University of Leicester in England and then various others who are doing individual volume so Crawford Gribben doing

38:39

Fuller's writings on commentary on Revelation We've got others including

38:45

Tom Nettles, Stephen Holmes at St. Andrew's Jong -moo Yoo who's in Korea all

38:52

Doing critical editions of individual or sometimes collected volumes of Fuller's works Scholarly introductions about 50 pages and then a critical text have based very much or modeled very much on the

39:04

Yale edition of Edwards's works So my personal involvement with the Andrew Fuller Center was maintained when it moved

39:11

Toronto to Louisville and now one of the fellows and doing teaching on their behalf as well So I do lecturing around on church history and and Baptist history and Andrew Fuller spirituality those sorts of topics and I'm also one at Co -editing a number of the volume.

39:29

So Myself, I'm working with Dr. Hagen on Fuller's letters working with Stephen Holmes on Fuller's sermons and I'm working on Fuller's gospel or sorry his

39:40

Genesis commentary with Jong -moo Yoo So it's a volumes have already been coming out now

39:46

Nathan Finn has his just come out Michael McMullen had the diary of Andrew Fuller come out

39:52

And they're published with a German publisher out of Berlin called Walter de

39:57

Greuter, which is a very highbrow secular academic press That's very kindly

40:02

Doing a very good job at putting these volumes out. So we're just we're thrilled to be able to Introduce Fuller to to a broader and academic audience

40:13

And I hope that it'll have the same effect that the Yale edition has had or for Jonathan Edwards throughout the 20th century.

40:20

So Yes, I remember the late. Dr. John Gerstner being very very Excited about that Yale edition.

40:28

Yeah and I believe he lent his Accolades to it when it came out

40:36

But not to derail the conversation on the from the intended subject, but Andrew Fuller is a bit of a controversial figure within Calvinistic Baptist history as John Gill Has been sometimes labeled as a hyper

40:54

Calvinist. Although our Mutual friend. Dr. Tom Nettles disagrees with that.

41:00

He believes that That Gill is undeservedly receiving that description

41:07

Andrew Fuller sometimes is categorized as a hypo Calvinist kind of falling beneath the standard of What would historically be considered?

41:17

Calvinism, what's your opinion on that? Yeah, the big issue is is In the later

41:23

Fuller and you see this in the distinction between the two editions the gospel worthy of all acceptation

41:29

But in that second edition there there seems to have been and he's been accused of such of a bit of a pivot especially when it comes to matters of the atonement and whether or not he

41:42

Adopted what is sometimes called a governmental view of the atonement and so I've mentioned that he was very influenced by the writings of Jonathan Edwards and he was also very interested influenced by Edwards's disciples the so -called

41:57

New England theology or That involved Samuel Hopkins Joseph Bellamy that they certainly well even then in terms of scholarship on even on that group there's debate over as to what really were their views of reformed theology and atonement and and those kinds of things so So there's a the question is how much did did

42:21

Edwards imbibe? that New England theology and To what degree does he or doesn't he stand?

42:31

within the reformed tradition So my my personal take and I'm actually contributing a chapter to a book on Andrew Fuller on this actual subject

42:41

But I would I would argue that Fuller stands fairly Squarely in the reformed tradition.

42:47

I think that even in his later work I think he's critical at key points of Certain of the

42:53

New England theologians like Bellamy and Hopkins, even though he has an immense respect for them and That On a sort of a different but related related issue as we are coming now to see at a deeper level the diversity in the reformed tradition, so You know the scholarship of men like Richard Muller Willem van

43:16

Asselt and Rick who recently passed away and others of that school Who is we're seeing a greater diversity?

43:25

I can see how Andrew Fuller now fits more into a broader stream that it still stands within the tradition that was kind of handed down to us from Events like the

43:38

Synod of Dort. So I would argue that Fuller stands squarely within What we might sometimes call

43:44

Doherty and Calvinism I think that that that his view of the atonement is broader than somebody like a

43:51

John Owen But not so broad that it removes him outside of that So I you know, there's there's there's a friend of mine who's doing a

43:59

PhD at at Calvin under Richard Muller Is doing a very important study on English hypothetical universalism

44:08

Which was held by the so -called English delegation who went to Dort that includes people like John Davenant Though he wasn't there

44:17

John James Usher whom I I've studied at some length Was a hypothetical universalist so it's a it's a particular ism within Dort's Parameters but broader than the more stricter

44:31

Particular redemption view of somebody like John Owen So I think Fuller fits within that paradigm and doesn't go into that a more broader kind of Hopkins theology and The website for the

44:45

Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies is Andrew Fuller Center org Andrew Fuller Center org and just for the benefit of our listeners

44:55

Who are either not? reformed or Young in the reformed faith the term hyper

45:02

Calvinism does not refer to somebody who? Adheres to the five points of Calvinism as many people wrongly use that historic label this is really in regard to a departure not only from Historic Calvinism, but the

45:19

Bible in regard to how God uses human beings as a means To bring about the salvation of sinners.

45:26

Isn't that really in a nutshell? What hyper Calvinism would involve Yeah, I mean

45:32

I've heard it referred to as a sub Calvinism and you know I I think that there's a strong argument to be made for that.

45:39

I think that You know what we would what I would identify myself as and I think the best of our tradition as is a sort of a warm evangelical

45:48

Calvinism that emphasizes the sovereignty of God depravity of human sinful human beings

45:56

God's electing grace is Atone atoning work for his people and his preservation and perseverance with his people

46:07

I don't think any of that teaching undercuts The need to openly share the gospel with everybody

46:16

To go about world mission. That was a big problem for for Andrew Fuller in his day as they're

46:23

They're they're they're feeling this sense of call to go and share the gospel with with the nation for Carrie to go to India They they received pushback

46:32

Saying well, God will save whomever he wants to save and he doesn't need you that kind of thing All right

46:37

I I think that's I think that's horrific and and Fuller and Carrie and Ryland all those men had a very good understanding of God's sovereignty in salvation and at the same time the need to go out and do the work of mission a really helpful book actually on on all this on this subject on the issue of Calvinist mission but also as it's worked out in the tradition is

47:02

Michael Hagen's book did it with Jeff Robinson and It was published with Crossway and I think it's called something like Calvin and mission

47:11

Yeah, I'll have to look that up. Yeah, it's called the to the ends of the earth Calvin's missional vision and legacy and it really is great

47:20

Calvin and the reform tradition on this subject. Well, I'll have to interview. Dr. Hagen on that.

47:25

Oh, yeah, please do It's a very important subject and Well, let's get to your chapter in the book

47:31

We are discussing today Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reform tradition. Your specific chapter is melting the ice of a long winter revival and Irish descent if you could

47:43

Explain what period of church history you are describing? Sure Let me give a preface to this before we get in into that The you know, there's a big question in terms of Doing church history you know as to what is what constitutes the nature of revival and you know what it theologians and historians have kind of helpfully distinguished between two ways of looking at the broad subject of revival by breaking it down and To two categories of revival versus what we might call revivalism

48:22

So if you think of somebody like a Jonathan Edwards or a George Whitfield You see

48:29

Broadly speaking what we would talk about is revival that's the idea of a spontaneous work of the Spirit coming through the preaching of God's Word that revives the church and Then also with a stronger church sees the gospel going out and people being converted in large numbers whereas revivalism is something more along the lines of Later development though.

48:52

I think you see it also in the earlier periods even in somebody like a Whitfield but really strongly so in somebody like a

48:58

Charles Grandison Finney where there's the this emphasis on needs of you know the anxious bench of Prayer not not just like You know, there's a good way to use prayer

49:13

But then there's a manipulative way to pray in a manipulative sort of way to bring about revival as though Humans could actually, you know twist the arm of God and make certain things happen if we just follow a program

49:26

In Charles Finney, I think that Jerry Johnson rightly described

49:31

Charles Finney as a monergist But not the good kind He's a monergist in that he believed that it was only man that was involved in his regeneration

49:45

Well with that preface in mind that what I'm doing when I'm looking at this this question of revival and Irish descent is

49:53

I'm kind of taking that broad paradigm of revival and revivalism and And looking at that With earlier and later revivals in Ireland.

50:04

So there are the two sort of major Revivals that happened that that that Irish Protestant today tend to look back to are

50:15

One that occurred in the 17th century known as the six -mile water revival that happened in the north and around Ulster where you very much did see this idea of revival where where people were going out the gospel was being preached on fullness clarity and churches were being revived and There was a remarkable movement of God's Spirit And then the the second one is

50:42

It's part of the 1859 revival That that occurred starting in New York, but then going across America and also across the

50:51

Atlantic and that that happened the 59 revival In as well as in the north in Ireland, which had much more that revivalist

51:02

Mentality is that the one that involved Jeremiah lamp fear in New York City? Yeah that one with lamp here in New York City Yeah So what

51:13

I'm doing is I'm looking at broadly at these two revival and revivalism I'm looking at how, you know, six -mile water is more an example of a genuine what we would say is a genuine revival revivalism

51:25

The 59 revival which both of them are important. I think God is working in both of them

51:31

Absolutely, but you see the elements of these two types of ways of looking at revival by Comparing and contrasting them and so that's so I'm starting really in the 1600s and bringing it down to about the early

51:46

Did especially the first revival did that include Roman Catholics coming in considerable numbers to the true faith of the scriptures or was it primarily

51:58

Dead Protestant churches that were being revived there. Yeah, there was it was in the main

52:04

It was with in fact both revivals were in the main to reviving

52:10

Protestant churches Yeah, primarily and in fact the earlier revival When it came to Roman Catholicism, there was some pushback against that then there's some absolutely brilliant stories of of You know

52:27

Roman Catholic Irish Roman Catholic friars coming to debates leaders of the of the six -mile water revival only to have you know the debate shut down because These Protestants theologians really do their stuff

52:44

Sounds like the Boycott that was being held against James White for many years by Roman Catholics But I'm very happy to announce that Catholic answers is finally permitting one of their their

52:59

Colleagues there to debate James in January January 18th the day before the g3 conference begins in Atlanta, Georgia and Trent Horn Who is a

53:15

Roman Catholic apologist with Catholic answers has agreed to debate? Dr. White on whether or not a

53:21

Christian a true born -again Regenerate Christian can lose his or her salvation

53:28

So that's that's actually an issue that You'll have ironically many So -called

53:35

Protestants siding with the Roman Catholics on that issue but tell us about the genesis of the the first Irish revival that you were speaking of sure the background to this all really it has its roots in in what we call the

53:55

Irish Reformation and The Irish Reformation is a bit something that comes a bit later than English Reformation very different in many respects

54:03

Whereas the English Reformation took deep root you know with people like bishops like Thomas Cranmer Hugh Latimer Nicholas Ridley and and still mark

54:15

England and English Christianity today in Ireland is very different The revivals kind of sort of the

54:23

Reformation came more in the early 17th century and Came primarily through the work of a man who

54:30

I've always long had a deep interest in Archbishop James Usher Your readers or your hearers will probably know something of Usher in that he is the one who

54:42

Dated the creation of the world In 4004 BC and a famous annals of the world that he wrote and so I'm sure gets kind of dragged in a little bit into The debates over, you know, the age of the earth and creation and that kind of thing

54:58

But Usher himself was a remarkable a historian and theologian and a remarkable churchman

55:04

He was what what one person I Crawford Gribbin is called an Irish Puritan Was and he's the one who is largely credited towards to bringing

55:15

Protestant reform theology to to Ireland and trying to establish a reformation there that largely failed unfortunately

55:24

But within the context of this Irish Reformation With this kind of rediscovering of the gospel part on a political level there was the plantation of Scots Presbyterian in the north and Ulster and through the sort of matrix of all of these things happening you had preachers coming who were preaching the gospel and And people were hearing it and they were there being saved and it came sort of in an unconventional way

55:53

Through the preaching of one man named James Glenn dinning Who was something of a pulpit here?

56:00

I was preaching in Ireland in the 1620s around 1625. He'd come over.

56:05

He'd been trained at st. Andrews University and and he was he was kind of your stereotypical hellfire brimstone preacher that preached all law and God was using his preaching to bring the terrors of his law down on people's heads

56:24

But he wasn't then following that up with the life -giving bomb of the gospel And so people were in a terrified state and so other men had come along men like Robert Blair also

56:39

Scotland who'd been trained at Glasgow University He'd come over and he he came and like him were actually preaching the gospel and so the people that had been under this

56:50

You know feeling the condemnation of God's law then all of a sudden hear the gospel and and then it becomes this

56:58

Overwhelming Sense of joy that was just spreading people. That was that was really the catalyst for revival

57:04

So my this man Crawford Gribbon who I mentioned earlier in one writing

57:11

Spoke of how God used a madman like James Glenn dinning who is a bit of a crazy man tip to bring about revival

57:19

He had this guy Glenn dinning had gone off after all we know about him in terms of history Was that he had preached these hellfire sermons that were eventually used to spark this six -mile water revival and then

57:31

The others who saw something of his eccentricities kind of excluded him from the rest of the preaching and he left

57:38

To go in search of the seven churches in Asia Minor That's amazing the way

57:48

God works Yeah, we have to go to our second break now if you'd like to join us on the air

57:54

We do have a few people waiting to have their questions asked and answered and I thank you for your patience But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email address is

58:04

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com at CH RIS AR n

58:10

Z n at gmail .com Please include your first name city and state and country of residence

58:16

If you live outside of the USA, we look forward to hearing from you and we'll be back right after these messages with dr

58:23

Enh Clary, so don't go away Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio

58:29

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to hello, this is

58:36

Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and Occasional guest on Chris's show

58:47

I Think I think that's what it's called Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta My new hometown it is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

59:05

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Voddie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people

59:13

We hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference .com

59:22

Thanks, Todd, I think see you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth

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01:03:15

Bringing new life to your home Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in today our guest today is dr

01:03:24

Ian H Clary and we are discussing a book he contributed to Pentecostal outpourings revival in the reformed tradition a subject which we began last

01:03:35

Wednesday with another Co -author and editor of this book dr.

01:03:40

Robert smart and We are today speaking specifically on Melting the ice of a long winter revival and Irish descent the chapter that our guest today.

01:03:51

Dr. Ian H Clary Contributed to the book if you'd like to join us on the air with a question

01:03:57

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:04:05

And we do have a listener CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York Who asked

01:04:14

I have become very fond of Many of the preachers I have heard on sermon audio and elsewhere from within the

01:04:23

Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and Its sister organization or daughter organization the

01:04:31

Free Presbyterian Church of North America would you consider the genesis of this denomination in Northern Ireland a more modern

01:04:43

Result of a smaller revival of sorts Yeah, that's a good question.

01:04:50

I mean, I'm familiar with the Free Presbyterians obviously with the late

01:04:56

Andrana blank Ian Paisley. Yeah, and so Ian Paisley obviously a strong preacher as well as a strong political force in 20th century

01:05:08

Ireland, especially in the north, but I don't know enough about its own Denominational history to be able to draw back an organic link

01:05:16

I know for sure that that pays in Paisley had a very high view, especially the 59 revival he wrote a

01:05:25

Account of that and published an account of it and and would have seen himself standing squarely within the reform tradition

01:05:32

I know he had a very high view of men like Charles Spurgeon But beyond that I really

01:05:38

I don't have a deep enough knowledge of that to be able to To make an organic connection.

01:05:45

Well, I can say that from the men that I have grown to Know for instance

01:05:52

John Greer who is was for a while right here in Pennsylvania at the Malvern Free Presbyterian Church.

01:05:59

He is now returned to Ulster and I know that he is really a powerful powerful preacher of the doctrines of grace a fully committed

01:06:09

Calvinist and all of the Men within that denomination I have met are fully committed

01:06:14

Calvinists the the area that I depart with them is they

01:06:22

They adhere to different levels of King James Exclusivism, right?

01:06:29

I've never met one that had a bizarre or crazy level of it like some folks that I have met but But even our friend dr.

01:06:38

Joel Beaky His denomination only uses the King James from their pulpits, but he would not call a heretic somebody that That this did not use that translation

01:06:49

But I I really have a lot of wonderful things to say about that denomination but I'm not enough of an historical expert to Identify it with a revival, but it seems to be definitely drawing people in that area, which is known for apostasy and liberalism and even

01:07:09

Catholicism to a a genuine understanding of the gospel and aid an abandonment of of heretical neo -evangelicalism

01:07:20

To do two quick things to that both kind of related to what you're saying I had picked up Through my own when

01:07:29

I was ordained my church gave me a copy of dr. Beaky's study Bible that he did based on the

01:07:35

King James with reformational notes and I'll tell you I've been using that with my family

01:07:41

I'm more of a you know, ESV kind of guy, but I thought you know I really want to get back into using this

01:07:47

King James version and I've been using it over the past almost year to great benefit

01:07:53

I've been so delightfully surprised at How effective it's been in the life of my young children

01:08:00

The way the the way that the King James reads has a real memorable memorable miss memorability to it

01:08:07

Second thing I wanted to mention was you mentioned that John Greer. I believe John Greer either his son or Nephew or grandson or some

01:08:15

I'm sure the exact relation But as a friend of mine actually Peter Greer Peter is working in Cork City in the south and Ireland with I see international fellowship of evangelical students and He's part of a larger and really remarkable work of God's Spirit as it's actually going on And we can talk about that later in the interview

01:08:41

In in and around Cork City and in a county Cork and in Kerry And Peter is a great guy and is also himself very committed to the doctrine of grace

01:08:53

Well, if it is the same Greer family to ease by the way Definitely tell

01:08:59

Peter to say hello to John for me and I'd love to get John on this program at some point in the near future,

01:09:04

I will absolutely and Well, I'll pick up where we left off there as far as the the history of this

01:09:15

Irish descent and Specifically remind us what specifically why specifically you're using the term descent

01:09:25

Sure. So with this six -mile water revival that happens in the 1620s, you know, the gospel is going out

01:09:32

I said this is coming within the context of the Irish Reformation and so The the

01:09:38

Reformation itself gets a lot of pushback not just from from from Roman Catholicism But also because of the political nature of of the

01:09:48

English Church So this is entering into the period of a man who became

01:09:53

Archbishop of Canterbury named William Lodd and Lodd was a very strong anti Puritan and What he wanted to do was he wanted to take what was then a very separate

01:10:02

Church of Ireland Led by Archbishop Usher Lodd wanted to subsume the

01:10:09

Church of Ireland under the sea or the the bishopric of Canterbury and so what he did was he sent political agents into Ireland the most important one was

01:10:19

Thomas Wentworth Who is the Lord Deputy sort of ushers political counterpart? and he was really trying to wrestle the

01:10:26

Irish Church under under English control and that actually brought a lot of persecution and That persecution was coming against also those men that were involved with the

01:10:37

Six -Mile Water Revival They were trying there. There was an attempt to force them into a stronger conformity to things like the

01:10:46

Book of Common Prayer and the English Articles of Faith the

01:10:51

Irish had their own Irish articles that were very reformed that actually formed the backbone of the Westminster Confession and So with it was their resistance to further conformity

01:11:01

They were being persecuted and so as the this this revival is is going on at the same time there's this degree of persecution that happened and through that persecution then you get them really the birthing of Irish descent so dissenting from conformity to The Church of England or the

01:11:21

Church of Ireland and its formularies and you get really the birth of Irish Presbyterianism So I guess to your to your earlier question that came through the internet

01:11:30

There is a sense that anybody who would own a dissenting tradition in Ireland can trace their lineage back

01:11:37

To the birthing here of Irish descent in the Six -Mile Water Revival and the persecution that came from that By the way,

01:11:44

I forgot I think I forgot to mention to CJ that you have won a copy of the book today Right on great

01:11:52

CJ so make sure you give us your full mailing address so that you can receive a copy of Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reformed tradition compliments of the publishers publishers reformation heritage books and it will be mailed to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

01:12:14

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service .com and we thank

01:12:20

Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS .com for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:12:25

They mail out all of our winners in our listening audience their free

01:12:31

Bibles books DVDs CDs or whatever else they're winning by submitting questions to our guests

01:12:38

And they do so practically on a daily basis with some exception and We thank them for that we also again, of course, thank the publishers

01:12:50

Reformation heritage books for providing these free books by our guest and their website is heritage books org

01:12:58

I'll make sure I mention that before we run out of time and I forget about it Heritage books org you're gonna see a very long list of phenomenal

01:13:09

Books not only that they publish but that other reformed publishers have brought into print

01:13:15

And I think you'll be very impressed with that ministry and that was founded by a name

01:13:21

We keep mentioning during this interview. Dr. Joel Beeky of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan We have

01:13:32

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who wants to know I have heard the word revival?

01:13:41

misused very often especially amongst charismatic and Pentecostal groups and even amongst some fundamentalist

01:13:49

Baptist groups But if you could just give some basic elements of what you believe is an actual revival

01:13:57

Sure. Well that that goes back to our earlier discussion about that distinction that we would make between revival and revivalism

01:14:04

I don't think it's a perfect, you know black and white cut -and -dry distinction You know like anything in history, there's always complexities because in history you're you're dealing with people who are complex

01:14:15

But I think it's a good broad general category. And so when when when we're looking at modern 20th and 21st century

01:14:26

Ideas of what revival is it's often that kind of you know, and in my own backyard

01:14:32

We have the what we had the Toronto blessing, which is a very strong Charismatic movement with you know second blessing and gold tea the

01:14:40

Gold dust falling down and speaking in tongues and divine healing all this kind of stuff and that kind of thing

01:14:46

I think would fall more appropriately under that that rubric of Revivalism also apostasy would be a good label

01:14:53

Well in in most respects, there's there's actually a blatant denial of the gospel as well

01:14:59

Unfortunately, and that was certainly the case in in manifestations of that up here in the heyday of the

01:15:05

Toronto blessing and and so you know with we mentioned

01:15:12

Charles Grandison Finney and that Awakening that he was involved in with the the idea that through your efforts through the means

01:15:22

That you use that you can actually bring God's Spirit down in revival

01:15:28

I think coming out of that are things like the Holiness movement and from the Holiness movement and you get the

01:15:34

Pentecostal movement and from the Pentecostal movement you get various waves of Charismatic movement and all those you have to be careful to distinguish between I have good

01:15:44

Pentecostal friends and brothers That though would believe in the continuance of the gift speaking in tongues would look at the you know

01:15:52

Certain iterations the charismatic movement very critically. That's why I don't want to put everybody all into the same

01:15:59

Category, but I think that you can see that that or you know Charismatic view of revival has it having that kind of link back to a finite type movement that said as I Because there's a gray area here and it's not a stark, you know

01:16:16

Black and white distinction you can make there are there's very much I've studied George Whitfield in in depth in my doctoral work and there's definitely a sense even in Whitfield where Though, of course, he is preaching the gospel freely and he is reformed in his approach to things

01:16:35

Way, he articulates the birth There is a sense where he is using means as well

01:16:40

And and so I think there's lessons to be learned there too for us where you know It is you know, you're we're speaking through the media radio that'll broadcast on the

01:16:51

Internet as well and that's a means to a greater spiritual good of encouraging people and Whitfield was really somebody who helped develop modern print media and he did that for the sake of the revival and used it very

01:17:03

Effectively now, he's not doing that in the same way as Finney but means are important to and and so You know in our in our understanding of revival we sort of take all of these things in together

01:17:19

But but yeah, I think that this modern iteration is very problematic now, would you say that that means aspect would be a hallmark of the

01:17:31

Calvinistic Methodist revival and Wales and other places Yeah, I mean

01:17:37

Whitfield is obviously very closely tied to that through Somebody like a Howell Harris and Howell Harris You know was a very strong preacher

01:17:47

But you know everywhere Whitfield went and he had a strong connection to the

01:17:52

Calvinist Methodist Wales Where wherever he went he used means effectively and I think in a good way like like something like print media

01:18:01

Even you know Whitfield would admit to You know, even in his earlier Ministry as a young man

01:18:08

He would stir up controversy You know with his critiques of unconverted ministers that he felt that though, you know, the content of the critiques were appropriate

01:18:19

The way he is a young man went about them he was self -critical and said look I I did this with a bit more of a

01:18:25

Bombastic nature that maybe I should have and I wasn't always charitable and part of that was a drive towards Controversy begets celebrity in a sense and and Whitfield is certainly really the first modern celebrity and And he was effective that way even it would admit to inflating numbers of the crowds that would come and so in later editions of his

01:18:47

Journals, he would bring those numbers back down to a more reasonable size and that kind of thing So you can see that, you know, even in the earlier revival you see it, especially in John Wesley Way more so than in Whitfield But again,

01:19:02

I think that you have to always be able to maintain that revival revivalist distinction and a big part of that is a really

01:19:08

Good understanding of the gospel and the fact that as Whitfield is preaching the gospel people are being genuinely converted

01:19:14

It's Jonathan Edwards preaching the gospel people are being converted and those people remain converted and You can actually see generations of people of families that can trace their

01:19:26

Christian heritage back to the time of Edwards Because the revival had such deep roots whereas with Finney, you know

01:19:34

We talked about the burned -over district in places like upstate New York where they would go through You know religious revivals that kind of burned through and burn people out and people get caught up in the excitement of it all

01:19:46

But it was not about the gospel. It was about other things. So the excitement the charismatic phenomenon, whatever and And those revivals are not lasting and that's part of the proof in the pudding at least how

01:19:58

I understand things Yes, but of course You would have to admit that even genuine revivals

01:20:04

Which will probably have more long -lasting effects than what

01:20:10

Finney was involved in still have Historically seemingly died out like the very congregation

01:20:18

Where Jonathan Edwards was a pastor is now a pro homosexual Congregationalist Congregation and you know, there's some been some horrible things that have happened in areas of the

01:20:34

World and of this country when I say this country, I'm obviously talking about the United States since you're in North America may be a better way of putting it but New England which was

01:20:46

Obviously a the place most well known for Puritanism in the 18th and 17th centuries is now as even secular

01:21:01

Individuals will be able to tell you every election cycle. Those are the one of the most liberal areas and the face of the

01:21:09

United States, so What and specifically in reference to the

01:21:17

Irish revivals What became of them? Would you say that there

01:21:23

Is still a strong remnant of that revival that has maintained throughout the the centuries or Has it largely just fizzled away?

01:21:36

well, I would think that the You know with What I do in this chapter as well

01:21:44

Not only with you know, the six -mile water that happens in the 17th century and then 1859 There are a series of smaller revivals that happened in the interim

01:21:53

So, you know, John Wesley spent a lot of time in Ireland He had a real burden for the

01:21:59

Irish and was preaching the gospel there and there was a strong Methodist movement That was birthed out of that and even we were talking earlier about Andrew Fuller Fuller also had a really deep concern about the

01:22:09

Baptist in Ireland and that would go over Samuel Pierce went over Fuller went after him Because they're you know, the the

01:22:16

Baptists were planted in Ireland through the Cromwell Ian You know army that had come over in the 17th century

01:22:23

They started churches the oldest ones actually a church that I have a deep relationship with Cork Baptist Church in Cork City is one of the earliest

01:22:31

Baptist churches Founded in the 1650s. There's been a strong Baptist movement there and they all experienced, you know degrees of revival at their various points of time and Those look different depending on you know, the nature of the preaching that it's involved

01:22:46

I think Fuller and Pierce are very strongly concerned about the denomination are working on an ecclesiastical level whereas a

01:22:55

Wesley is going and preaching all over the place and Setting up circuit riding and all that kind of thing.

01:23:01

And so you you can see in each of those movement different legacies coming out of it and You know thinking about the

01:23:10

Baptist for instance right now Since maybe sometime the 1980s or so There has been a real

01:23:18

I would call revival growth of Baptist churches in the south, which is remarkable There's the denomination in Ireland There's the

01:23:27

Baptist Union and they've set up a thing called the Cork and Kerry project where there's a very

01:23:34

Intentional targeting of unreached communities With church planting and it is amazing

01:23:41

Absolutely amazing to see how many churches are growing up that are strong reformed

01:23:46

Baptistic churches that are concerned about the gospel That are just doing amazing work, even though the churches all have different personalities with their pastors.

01:23:56

There's a real unity behind them and and I would say that that's that's a legacy of Of what we saw even with somebody like Fuller going over it and devoting a lot of energy

01:24:06

Even though it's a number of a couple hundred years ago. I think that that there's there's a big part of that In what these people are doing and I have a small part to play in that.

01:24:17

I've been teaching in a place called Munster Bible College that meets at Cork Baptist Church and you know,

01:24:24

I Taught an apologetics course is their first course that they ever ran a couple of years ago

01:24:31

And they had no idea what the student enrollment was going to be like and you know It looks little colleges like this that just get their start usually have maybe five to ten people as their first course that runs they had over 30 and They're just they're going strong.

01:24:47

They're they're they're they're training people for gospel ministry and all of these various churches as As the church planting is happening

01:24:55

They saw a real need for not only do we want to expand across Ireland? but we need to go deep and go deep with the truths of the gospel and our tradition and so It's just exciting

01:25:11

Praise God, but by the way, how on earth did a college in the

01:25:16

Republic of Ireland have the name Munster? Huh? Well Munster is interesting.

01:25:22

I mean you obviously you're probably thinking about Munster and what was going on with Martin Luther Yes, Germany and the craziness that was involved with that Munster But Munster in in Ireland is one of the provinces as you have.

01:25:36

Okay, you know Ulster You have Munster Leinster and I cannot like Anybody who's

01:25:41

Irish listening to me and I and I got that wrong But so Munster is a one of the provinces that has a series of counties in it and one of those counties is

01:25:51

County Cork and And so they they really see themselves as targeting pastors and churches

01:25:58

And lay people in in the area of Munster and so Munster Bible College is connected with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary As we mentioned

01:26:07

Michael Hagan a number of times in this interview. Dr. Hagan has a very deep interest in Ireland And so he set up this relationship between Munster Bible College and Southern So that you can take courses in Ireland and get credit at Southern seminary for it

01:26:25

Towards a year and now they're partnering with a couple of other schools that where you can finish out your education in Ireland With with awesome professors.

01:26:34

I mean, I don't mean myself in that but you can have courses with Michael Hagan and Stephen Wellham from Southern and Michael Figpen who is the president of the

01:26:42

Evangelical Theological Society's been out there and a number of Good good professors are going and they're getting a first -grade education on Irish soil and for the sake of Irish churches and It's incredible.

01:26:56

I love it Yeah, speaking of the connection with Michael Hagan in Ireland. I Am going to God willing be interviewing.

01:27:04

Dr. Hagan in March of 2017 on Patrick of Ireland his life and impact

01:27:12

Great. Well, that's fantastic I'm and anything for me my heart a big part of my heart's in Ireland and at any point when

01:27:20

I can think of a Way to encourage Irish Christians. I'm all in favor of that We have

01:27:28

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know are

01:27:35

The Baptists in the Republic of Ireland that you speak of Using the term

01:27:42

Protestant to label themselves. I was wondering if that was an unnecessary Stumbling block being in the heart of Roman Catholic, Ireland.

01:27:51

That's a very interesting question and a good question actually The Baptists there a number of them and I don't want to speak for all of them first of all

01:28:03

The most delightful easygoing people you ever and just hospitable and charitable and loving and I just I really connected with so many of the pastors and lay people there over the three times that I've been out so far to teach and speak for them and So in terms of you know, any of my foibles with the way

01:28:23

I've described things they've always been extremely gracious So at one point I I did

01:28:28

I referred to us as Protestants And some of those who had been converted out of Catholicism to the

01:28:37

Baptist cause Baptist expression of the gospel In personal very kindly in personal conversations that you know we don't actually see ourselves as Protestants for us a

01:28:47

Protestant is somebody who's an Anglican a member of the Church of Ireland and The Church of Ireland doesn't always have the greatest level of respect

01:28:55

Amongst some of them and so they said we're Baptists. That's our that's our kind of core Christian identity beyond just being a

01:29:03

Christian is that we're actually Baptist and And so that was a that was an interesting experience for me because I do

01:29:11

I self -identify as a Protestant But that that kind of comes with certain connotations and they said that you know

01:29:18

They view the world through in many respects Catholic eyes still and they don't have the theology

01:29:23

They don't practice the liturgy or any of that sort of thing there They're they believe in the gospel justification by faith alone

01:29:29

Calvinist but you know, they were raised a certain way and still view things in a certain way that I thought was very interesting and And helpful

01:29:39

I thought in terms of you know ministering to their own native context I thought that that's actually a good thing because it provides a bridge a cultural bridge for gospel conversations that I think is probably gone to some way towards You know

01:29:55

That growth of the gospel that we're seeing now, but there are many of them there there's been a great support from the

01:30:03

Baptists in the north in Ulster, Northern Ireland a number of their pastors have come down to the south and Because they've had training up in the north and come down and they're planting churches as well.

01:30:14

They're in positions of leadership and and so Even amongst the differences that they may have north and south again

01:30:21

There's a real unity that I've that I've been really humbled by to see I want to I'll make one sort of I could go on and on about what's going on there and you'll have to stop me

01:30:31

But I got one one good story. I was there a number of September's ago every

01:30:37

September They all the churches that have been planted all come together and have one big service

01:30:44

Where they you know, they're in a large Gymnasium and there's hundreds and hundreds of them there where a number of the pastors will preach and I have never sung be thou my vision with so much heart as I have with those

01:30:59

Irish Saints Wow, absolutely amazing and I met this gentleman named Ned Kelly Sorry, Ted Kelly who had come from the north.

01:31:09

He was an older man. Now. He's probably in his late 80s and Years and years ago. He had come down from the north to do gospel missions work in the south.

01:31:17

He'd gone to Cork Baptist And I met this man standing in the midst of hundreds of Irish Christians talking to him about what it was like and he said when he first went to Cork Baptist was hardly anybody in that church and He would you know hear about an evangelical in a town miles and miles away get on his bike to go meet that person to Pray with them and that was it

01:31:39

But through the faith faithful gospel ministry coming out of Cork Baptist the church began to grow as it grew to a certain size

01:31:47

Well, they had a heart for church planting. So they would go target a certain town They would plant a church there then that church would start to grow

01:31:55

Cork Baptist would continue to grow those two churches would then plant other churches strategically and you had a there's a core of about seven of these major churches that started places like Karagaline and and Middleton and and in Cork City and Just growing and growing and and and so through the fruit of this older man labors you've got all these hundreds of Irish Christians together worshiping

01:32:24

God and and it was just a stunning experience to be with this man and as though humble and so gracious and But as I said,

01:32:33

I could go on and on here and we're supposed to be talking about a book Well I want to thank

01:32:39

BB and the others who wrote in questions. You all have won a copy of the book

01:32:46

Pentecostal outpourings and Just keep your eye open from for a package from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com

01:32:56

and that should be coming in the mail to you within a week or so when we thank you very much for Participating in today's program.

01:33:02

We're going to our final station break So there'll be about 25 minutes more

01:33:07

Time to discuss this fascinating subject with dr E and H Clary if you'd like to join us on the air as well with a question

01:33:15

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:33:21

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with dr. E and H Clary.

01:33:27

So don't go away Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend.

01:33:38

Dr. James White to tell you why hi I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor

01:33:46

Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

01:33:58

Protestant Reformation I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of What g3 stands for?

01:34:14

Gospel grace and glory for more details go to g3 conference .com.

01:34:19

That's g3 conference .com Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there

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Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives Welcome back.

01:37:54

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 25 minutes to go is dr

01:38:01

Ian H Clary research and teaching fellow at the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies teaching teacher at Redeemer University College Heritage College and Seminary and Munster Bible College and associate pastor and elder at West Toronto Baptist Church We have been discussing

01:38:21

Pentecostal outpourings revival and the reform tradition a subject we began last week with Bob Smart who is a co -author of that same book and co -editor and We are discussing the specific chapter that our guest

01:38:39

Contributed to that book today involving the Irish descent And also the

01:38:45

Irish Revival if you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:38:52

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan Who says

01:38:59

I'm very glad to hear about? What's happening in Ireland? I want to mention the ministry in Scotland known as 20 schemes and Pastor Mez McConnell Are you aware of the kingdom work being done for Scotland's poor and if the churches in Ireland and Scotland are working together?

01:39:20

Yeah, very very familiar with Mez McConnell and the work that he's doing there the churches that I'm the circle of churches that I'm involved with here in Toronto have a close relationship with with Mez and And I know people who have actually gone from Toronto to go work with him there in you know inner cities

01:39:41

In Scotland, and it's an amazing work his own personal testimony is absolutely outstanding and And the close friends that I have that work with him have a very high view of Mez McConnell's work.

01:39:55

I don't know particularly Whether or not Irish churches are involved with what he's doing there

01:40:02

I wouldn't be surprised if they are at knowing the the close relationship between especially in the north and Ulster The church is there and the connection that they would have with churches in Scotland But I'm not personally aware of anybody who's doing that work

01:40:16

But if if any of my Irish friends were looking to get involved with it, I would definitely encourage them

01:40:24

Well, thanks Jeff and Clinton Township, Michigan. You are also receiving a free copy of this book

01:40:32

Pentecostal outpourings compliments of Reformation heritage books and Also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service cvbbs .com

01:40:44

cvbbs .com we'll be shipping that out to you and By the way, I would like either or both of you meaning

01:40:52

Jeff in Michigan and my guest Ian Clary I'd love to Interview Mez, so if you could give me some contact information as soon as possible,

01:41:01

I would love to follow up on that And our email address once again is

01:41:10

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:41:17

And We do have RJ in White Plains, New York who wants to know

01:41:25

What lessons can be learned by the church today from this Irish revival both negative and positive

01:41:35

Sorry, I just interest me enough to your previous questioner as it turns out

01:41:41

Somebody in Ireland is actually listening to this and emailed me just now as that question was coming in saying that Mez McConnell actually does have a relationship with the churches in the south and Actually with some friends of mine, so Just to give further clarification to that question that email just came in to me.

01:41:59

So, oh great. Sorry. I missed your question Sure We have a question from RJ in Westchester County, New York who says what lessons can be learned by the modern church both in a negative and positive sense

01:42:15

From the well, the it was almost a Welsh revival from the Irish revival Well, the

01:42:21

Welsh revivals are pretty interesting to learn from as well and we could go on because my wife is Welsh She I'm sure would want me to talk about that.

01:42:28

But in terms of lessons from the Irish revivals I think the biggest lesson for me personally is you know just as as John Wesley said about Ireland that God still has something to do with the

01:42:41

Irish people and And so there's a great need even now though things are going so well in the areas around Cork There's still a real need and I know people even here that are going over and doing short -term missions trip trips

01:42:55

Southern seminary sends students over to do those sorts of trips. So I mean if anybody is interested Please contact me and I could definitely put you in touch with the right people about Wanting to labor as these people have you know for for so long in Ireland I think the the more broader general lessons we could learn about revival itself

01:43:17

I think that what we we spoke of earlier about the use of You know the

01:43:25

Preaching the solid preaching of the gospel in the earlier revival in six -mile water

01:43:31

Is there a real lesson? So if you you know, so you say you're working through my chapter in my book and you read about something like Robert Blair It was a

01:43:40

Scott who came over and was preaching in the north there He was a man who had very strong theological conviction and knew what he believed

01:43:50

Had a very strong powerful preaching of the gospel and it was through the labors of men like him that churches were being revived

01:43:59

Christians were coming back to their faith. The gospel was going forward and There's a really great work there and I think that you know as you continue on and you work and you get through to the 1859 revival and you see how there's a market change where the the doctrinal content is lacking and There is more of an emphasis on using mean

01:44:24

And and it brought about you know weird You know outcry and and and strange manifestations supposedly of the spirit that you know ultimately we're shown to be you know counterfeits and And so I think the big lesson there and comparing the two is to see that you know, it's it is really through the preaching of the gospel if we want to see revival happen it's the preaching of the gospel and prayer and And and that that's why

01:44:55

I take away from it Now how much of a stumbling block today is

01:45:04

The the times of troubles as they are known the deadly conflicts between Protestants and Catholics That seem to have largely

01:45:18

Dissipated More than a decade ago But the the memories obviously are still fresh in the hearts of probably the more older Citizen in either

01:45:35

Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland and you know how much of a stumbling block is the the erroneous broad brushing of Bible believing

01:45:48

Christianity with political Protestantism and You know that which politically maintained or desired to maintain a strong Relationship under the throne of England Yeah There there is definitely

01:46:08

You know in my experience with going both into the north and the south there's a definitely a difference

01:46:14

Between you know Christians in the north and Christians in the south and the way The culture whether in the north or south the unbelieving culture respond to Christian You know whether a funny way

01:46:27

I remember once hearing a joke the atheist Christopher Hitchens Who died a number of years ago once told a story?

01:46:35

I don't know if it's true or just a joke But where you know he was crossing over or other from north to south or vice versa and the border guard there

01:46:43

I you know asked him and said What are you you know a Protestant or an atheist and he says well?

01:46:49

I'm sorry a Protestant or a Catholic and Christopher Hitchens as well neither I'm an atheist so the border guard goes back to his colleagues and they confer amongst themselves and come back to the car and As well what kind of atheists are you are you a

01:47:01

Catholic atheist or a Protestant? But that is there's still something of a concern there,

01:47:10

I think But as I said there's there's You know there's a unity I think between the

01:47:16

Christians in the north and the south that transcends that divide to a large degree and what's happening in the south especially is that with the

01:47:24

The breakdown of the stronghold of the Roman Catholic Church There's actually a byproduct of that has been an openness to the gospel

01:47:33

Because people have become so disenfranchised with with Roman Catholicism That you could go and do door -to -door evangelism and you walk up and knock on the door of somebody's house, and you know in a town like Kinsale and you say

01:47:47

I'd like to talk to you about Jesus Christ, and I'm from this Baptist Church plant and They're very interested to talk to you now if you came up in your

01:47:57

Roman Catholic They'd shut the door in your face, but because you're you know part of this different group

01:48:02

It's not got all the baggage of you know however many hundred years of Catholic rule

01:48:07

There's a real openness to want to hear about what is it you actually believe and that's part of how some of this work

01:48:14

Going on on down in the south is happening and so The north

01:48:20

I don't have as strong a relationship with so things would be a little bit different there. It's a different kind of Protestant religion there that's more or more conservative

01:48:32

You know even in a political outlook But Yeah, I'm not.

01:48:37

I don't think that all that has you know the IRA and all that sort of stuff

01:48:42

It's obviously horrific, and I think that that it has left the lasting memories for a lot of people especially in the north

01:48:48

I've got friends there. You know I won't share personal stories about them, but really harrowing stories that As much as they might feel that they're getting over things that it's still very much there and very much reality

01:49:02

Such a such a sad time, but I hope and pray that that's all done

01:49:10

Well, I want to give a shout out to a couple of listeners of mine from the

01:49:18

Republic of Ireland Paul Flynn who operates Megiddo radio

01:49:24

And Megiddo films his website is Megiddo radio .com Meg Iddo radio .com

01:49:33

and a listener by the name Joe Riley Who regularly listens to iron sharpens iron it's been a while since I've actually gotten a question for a guest from Joe But he does let me know

01:49:47

Very often that he's still listening, and I want to give a shout out to him I know that we have quite a number of other listeners in Ireland and in The UK and in Australia and in New Zealand And all over the globe so we just thank all of them very much for Their encouragement which

01:50:08

I regularly receive via email I want to make sure that Before we run out of time that you leave our listeners with what you most want etched on Their hearts and minds before the program is over What I would like for them to have most etched on their minds you mean yes

01:50:30

You know the summary the most important things that you want etched on our listeners minds today as a result of this topic actually sure

01:50:37

Yeah, absolutely. Well. I mean it really does. I mean your your listeners have probably heard you know this coming through but you know the biggest thing is that if you're a listener, and you're really thinking through mission and You know you you know read about say my my chapter here about Irish revival that goes back

01:50:56

I mean like one thing I forgot to mention was the six -mile water revival actually has the Prestigious distinction of being the first really reformed revival in history

01:51:06

And so there there's a real legacy there in Ireland for the gospel a legacy

01:51:11

That's being captured upon not just amongst the Baptist, but amongst other denominations to and even other

01:51:16

Baptist denominations and so If you're if you're trying to wrestle through a call, and where should you go to do gospel work?

01:51:25

I think that Ireland is a right field for permission, and that's that's something I Ireland is deeply etched into my own heart and And I'd love to see that But also within your own context whether you're you're planning on doing any kind of missions work or not

01:51:41

To really you know use the right means of revival You know we did talk about this, but in the chapter that dr.

01:51:49

Hagen deals with in the book Pentecostal outpouring that talks a lot about the prayer call and how you know we really need to be praying for revival for a pouring out of God's Spirit and We can do that whether it's for Ireland or for our own context

01:52:04

We're seeing that even in small measure in my own church here where our church has really been growing And there's a really strong emphasis on prayer in our church whether that's praying in our services praying in small groups praying at prayer meetings and those sort of things and I think that God honors that as a good kind of means and And we need to be careful within our own churches to make sure that we don't use the inappropriate means of trying to You know coerce people into belief that without the gospel and a solid theological foundation

01:52:40

You know you don't want to wind up like the fallout of a Sinaite type of revival

01:52:46

And so we need to long for revival we need to pray for it But we also need to be very careful that what we're doing is you know wanting that the genuine the genuine thing ultimately the church grow and See God's name glorified

01:53:02

Yeah, that's a a fine line sometimes between a proper passionate plea and urging for sinners to repent and come to Christ and The going over the biblical line of Using psychological manipulation and so on and what is your advice on?

01:53:28

keeping one separate from the other obviously we do not want to just give dry

01:53:34

Dead lifeless lectures to people about facts of the Bible and of the gospel we want to passionately plead with them as Our great heroes of the faith before us and even some many present -day heroes of the faith are known for but at the same time

01:53:55

There is you know even from some of our more modern

01:54:01

Calvinistic brethren perhaps with the new Calvinism are starting to use manipulative tactics during worship services that may be

01:54:09

Of putting too much of an emphasis on psychology and so on not not intentionally obviously, but unconsciously yeah,

01:54:17

I mean I would we talk to you a lot about somebody like a Joel Beaky and You know when we think of dr.

01:54:24

Beaky's preaching whenever I've sat under it There's a remarkable depth in terms of his handling of the the text that he's preaching

01:54:31

The theology that undergirds that and also a real

01:54:38

Experiment, you know he would talk about experimental theology a real sense of affection for God the gospel for Jesus Christ Cross that really comes across in his preaching, and I think to be really engaged not just preaching

01:54:53

Theology here But that you're preaching you know it's not just to people's minds But to their hearts and and I think that that is you know

01:55:01

I think that goes With that coupled with prayer goes a very long way

01:55:06

And you know maybe we use PowerPoint or maybe we do this and that but if we're relying on those things

01:55:11

It's not gonna. It's not going to do anything except. Maybe you know build up a little kind of cult following around a particular

01:55:19

Figure, but if we use you know the ordinary means of grace the preaching of the gospel the observing of the sacrament

01:55:26

Gathering of God's people on the Lord's Day I think that that that goes much farther towards glorifying

01:55:32

God and and actually Being the labors of that Revival Absolutely another thing

01:55:42

I might mention just as an aside if they if people want to go a little bit deeper into this You know they've read a chat to say they read this chapter on Revival and Irish descent and learn about what's going on in the revivals in Ireland a really helpful background book was one published by Evangelical press

01:55:57

I think in 2003 I hope it's still in print, but it's written by my friend Crawford Gribben Crawford teaches at Queen's University in Belfast He wrote this popular little book that there was that what gave me my love for Irish Christianity I was called the

01:56:12

Irish Puritans James Usher and the Reformation of the church And he goes through it much better detail of it in a very engaging manner

01:56:19

All the background issues James Usher the Irish Reformation and some of the lessons that we could learn from their their successes and failures as well

01:56:29

Praise God for that now in regard to your prayer requests for Toronto and Canada in general

01:56:36

Canada is becoming more and more well known for the way that they have started cracking down on faithful ministers of the gospel who are preaching out against the abomination of homosexuality and the abomination of sodomies acceptance as something praiseworthy within churches you know, they're being threatened with an even inflicted with fines and so on has is that just as Prevalent in Toronto as other parts of Canada and what can we specifically pray for in that regard?

01:57:17

Well, I think even on a bigger issue What's really happening in Canada and a lot?

01:57:23

I think in Western countries is is a failure amongst citizens of respective countries of the value of the of the freedoms and liberties that we've enjoyed by living in you know

01:57:37

The democracies that we have been and and I think that something that I'm very worried about Canada and it's happening here in Toronto is the the clawing back of issues freedom of expression

01:57:50

I don't know if you've been following any of this stuff with Jordan Peterson psychology professor at the University of Toronto who's not willing to stand and be forced by the government to use certain languages it respects the gender pronouns and I think whatever one might think about whether there's you know for the sake of a particular

01:58:09

Conversation with a person might you know have gender identity issues or whatever?

01:58:15

You know, I think we should all be able to secular and and Christian alike come together and see look

01:58:21

There's a there's a real threat to freedoms here, especially freedom of speech that if we don't actually make a stand here

01:58:29

We're gonna lose out on a lot and I think a lot a big part of that will come with religious expression preaching of the body the full counsel of God in the

01:58:37

Bible and And those matters that to me just seem like they're right on the horizon and Christians especially need to wake up to this and I would definitely pray for Canada to remain a free country so that God's people can really worship him

01:58:54

Well, it's been such a joy interviewing you today and I really look forward to you coming back often on iron sharpens iron

01:59:01

I want to repeat a couple of the Websites we gave out heritage books org

01:59:08

Heritage books org that is for Reformation heritage books the publisher of the book

01:59:13

We were discussing today if anybody wants to learn more about them and order some books of your own

01:59:20

We also have Ian Clary's own personal website Ian Hugh Clary dot wordpress .com

01:59:26

I a n hugh c l a r y Word dot wordpress .com

01:59:33

and we have West Toronto Baptist Church WTB church .com

01:59:39

WTB church .com anyway Thank you so much for being our guest today And I want our listeners to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater