Handling Unsaved People Near Death

Introducing the Christian Podcast Community and the Episode Topic

Welcome to Theology Throwdown, a podcast of the Christian podcast community podcasters. That was hard for me to say. We should try it. You got this, Andrew. You got this. You can do it. I'm a professional podcaster.

I should be able to get untongue-tied. We open this up to all of the Christian podcasters in the Christian podcast community. If you want to check out all of the, as of today, 52 podcasts that we currently have, go to christianpodcastcommunity .org.

That's christianpodcastcommunity .org. I'm saying 52 today because by the time you actually listen to this, it could be more. We have, I think, four or five that look like they're going to be doing really well and get into the queue.

Folks, just so you realize, we do not make it easy, and some of the podcasters here can probably admit to this. We were interviewing a podcaster that's looking to join, and he said that he talked to his wife, and he's like, man, I got two forms to fill out, and now I got to do an interview.

Just to get on, I said to him, I said, well, if it makes you feel any better, you're not done. You got one more form to fill out and then a contract to sign to get on. We do some serious vetting, and we have friends of ours that are friends, and they still had to go through the whole process.

Rest assured that those podcasts that are in the Christian podcast community have been vetted. They're ones that we have a high standard, and so we really think that these are some good podcasts for you to listen to.

You're going to get to hear from some of the podcasts tonight, some of the podcasters, I should say, and they'll mention their podcast, and so you're going to get a little bit of flavor of them. Tonight's topic, what we're going to talk about is really how to handle, how to deal with when you have a family or a friend who's near death, and they're not saved.

We'll probably touch on how to deal with saved as well, but really, this is a difficult topic. I will freely admit when we are discussing topics for this month, this one I came up with. This is mine, and it is of personal nature.

For those who follow Striving for Eternity, who follow me, listen to my Rap Report podcast, you'll know that I, right now, I'm dealing with a family member, very close family member who is dying and is not a believer, and so it's difficult to deal with.

We want to talk about it because there are differing advice that people will give, and it will hopefully be helpful, maybe if any of you are struggling with this or someday end up having to struggle with this, but also might be something that just shows where our differing backgrounds, we're going to come up with some differing views.

Podcast Introductions and Ministry Backgrounds

Let me start with the first podcaster I'm going to have introduce herself and to introduce her podcast. I also will announce is the newest admin to the Christian podcast community. So, Eve Franklin, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and your podcast.

Sure. I'm Eve Franklin, and I co-host the podcast Are You Just Watching, which was founded in 2009, so it's a podcast that has a long, I guess, backlog of episodes to listen to, but we review usually one secular movie a month from a Christian worldview discussing the themes and just basically putting together how to view a movie critically from a Christian worldview without letting the secular entertainment warp your thinking without you realizing it.

So, I also have a book about the same topic, which is on Amazon, and I'm happy to be on board with Christian podcast community and hoping I make a good admin.

Well, your book is really one geared toward, and this is on for homeschoolers, go check that out, because if you have kids who are looking at secular movies, it really teaches you how to, walks you through how to think critically about movies.

So, good book to get, good podcast. Now, your most recent podcast was a little bit controversial for Christians.

Yeah, we reviewed the movie Redeeming Love, which actually came out sort of as a Christian movie, but most Christians were very upset about it because it had partial nudity in it and some steamy sex scenes, and basically it was about, its claim to fame was a retelling of the story of Hosea from the book of Hosea.

So, yeah, it kind of created some waves in the Christian community.

All right, and next up we'll go with Aaron.

Hey, so, I really actually just enjoy this. I just want to say, you know, if you're a podcaster and you're specifically a Christian podcaster and you have Christian themes, you guys should totally check out this podcast community, and though it may be difficult to try to get into it, definitely, you know, submit to the process and see if you can get in, because even just participating with this group of people on a monthly basis, even on just this one opportunity here, is fantastic.

So, I just want to encourage everyone to consider that. But my name is Aaron Brewster and I have two podcasts on the network, in the community, I should say. The first one is Truth, Love, Parent, and Truth, Love, Parent is the podcast of a ministry called Truth, Love, Family, and that is all about helping parents to learn to worship God via their parenting, because parenting is not about our kids.

Parenting is not about us. Parenting is about God and how he would have us to parent our kids. So, that's a podcast. It's my longest running one, yeah. It started in 2016 and has almost 500 episodes. And then the second podcast is called The Celebration of God, and that is part of a ministry called The Year-Long Celebration of God, which is a discipleship experience whereby followers of Christ learn to worship God better every day of the year.

Every waking moment of the year, we want to worship God better this year than we did last year. And so, it's a growth in discipleship, which involves my own personal conformity to the But also, helping the other people that God has brought into my life to do the exact same thing.

So, Truth, Love, Parent and The Celebration of God are my two podcasts, and I just, I love doing it because when you have the opportunity to put something like this out there, you never know who listens to it.

You don't know how long it'll be out there. But God uses it, and I firmly believe the Apostle Paul, if he were alive today, he would have a podcast. He would probably have a ton of podcasts.

This is my attempt. All right. Now, a new voice to those who are regular listeners of Theology Throwdown. I don't know how this guy slipped in. I mean, we try to keep the New Yorkers out, that New York element out of here, but you're going to hear that heavy accent from Pastor Dom.

If you don't mind introducing yourself and your podcast.

Yes, thanks. Thanks for accepting me in, Andrew. It was a tough going, but it was well worth it. I just got in by the skin of my teeth, but I'll take it. My name is Pastor Dominic Romali, and we do a podcast called Street Talk Theology.

And, you know, I kind of named it. I did many years in prison. So, we kind of take theology and kind of break it down into bite-sized pieces. And I do have a connection. I want to be careful in using that word connection, but I do have a connection with some brothers in India that the church here in Desert Sky kind of helps out.

We got them Lagos and things like that. So, I do some stuff with them, and we just kind of talk theology, bring it to the streets, try to break it down, and try to encourage people and challenge people in the things of God.

So, that's where I'm at. And, you know, sometimes we try to give it sometimes to people that are in prison, but that have recently come out. But we just talk theology and bring it to the streets. So, I appreciate you guys letting the soul New Yorker in the podcast community.

You're actually not the soul New Yorker, though. We have a couple others that are up there in the Bronx. So, you know, stop and think about it podcast. Those guys are from the Bronx.

And they actually podcast from the Bronx, Andrew? Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

They're not transplant like you. But my name is Andrew Rappaport. I'm the host primarily a couple podcasts, but primarily my Andrew Rappaport's Rapport, which is a weekly podcast to help people with biblical interpretations and applications to Christian living and culture.

Right now, we're going through a long series of systematic theology, just going through this doctrinal statement of striving for eternity. Right now, finishing up the section on angels and demons and Satan.

And the other podcast I do regularly is my Apologetics Live podcast. That is a live show, Thursday nights, 8 to 10 Eastern Time. You just go to ApologeticsLive .com. And we can answer any question you have about God and the Bible.

And if you say you think we can't, well, you just try it out. Just join us and go to ApologeticsLive .com and give us your most challenging question because we can answer it. We're that confident. By the way, I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

So when you ask that difficult question and I say, I don't know, don't say I didn't answer because I just did. All right. We got some other podcasters that are going to be coming in a little bit later.

We'll let them introduce themselves when they do. But let's start this off. I've already said, you know, this is something that's personal to me right now and where I'm at. And it is something that I have had to deal with death in my family from the age of 10.

Comforting a Believer Who Is Near Death

Close family members and stuff. So I've kind of got used to it in a sense in a bad way because you just become desensitized to it. But as a believer, things changed. And it's harder when I think we realize that someone may be passing on into eternity and we know where they're going to spend eternity and they do not.

So let me first start off with the easier one of how to handle if you're dealing with someone who's dying that's a believer. There's been a lot of different things I've seen people do. I remember one person that I used to work with many, many years ago who actually I don't believe he was a believer.

But when he passed away unexpectedly, the church service that they did was very interesting because the church service they had, it really was like a celebration because they believed he was in heaven.

And so I think that when it comes to a believer, we often will talk about, oh, we're going to see family members in heaven and things like that. But so we do have two of us here today at least so far, our pastors.

One, Aaron, is a counselor. So I do realize that we're recording just before Shepherds Conference and many of the pastors in our community are either at Shepherds Conference right now or traveling to Shepherds Conference.

I will be heading out very early in the morning to catch my flight. But, you know, Aaron, let me throw it out to you first and just ask. So when we're dealing with someone who's a believer, you're coming to them that you know they're near death.

What kind of counsel can we give to someone in that situation?

Right now we're talking about someone in particular who is a believer, you said? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think there are so many directions that we can come with this. One of the things I just want to say as a preface, though, is that, you know, sometimes there's this idea that sharing scripture can be considered trite.

And I just want to say that that's an impossibility. God's word is powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword. It does the job that it's sent out to do. And though a person sharing it may be trite, and obviously they shouldn't be, the power of God's word is better than anything that any human being could ever say.

And though this first example is not one that comes from, you know, a person talking to someone who was dying. They were talking about someone who had just died. I still think that it's very relevant, and I think it's a wonderful example of how confident we can be when we talk to people who have lost somebody or who themselves are dying, but if they're believers.

It's when Jesus was talking to Martha after Lazarus' death. And, you know, she says, if you had been here, and he tells her, he said, listen, I am the resurrection and the life. He goes straight to the truth.

Whoever believes in me will never die. Do you believe that? He says. He has a mini altar call right there when he demands that she interact with the truth he was sharing. And so, yes, we want to make certain that we're speaking the truth in love, but I don't believe it's ever loving to not speak the truth.

And especially when we're dealing with somebody who is a believer, there are so many precious promises and so many encouraging hopeful realities in scripture. And one of the two places that I love the most to go when I'm talking to somebody in this situation is Psalm 116 -15, which is probably very familiar to many of you.

Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. There's something so startling about that. It's not precious in the sight of the Lord are his saints, which that's a true statement, but it's precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

Oh, wow. And there's so much you can talk about out there and you can unearth biblically from that reality. But the other place I like to go, which I think perhaps maybe, I don't know, maybe other people kind of go in this direction too, but it actually is in Revelation chapter two.

As we know, the church, the letters to the seven churches, most of those churches, you know, were struggling one way or another and there was a lot of, you know, Jesus had to correct them in a lot of things, but the church in Smyrna was unique among the seven.

It's the shortest letter. It doesn't involve really any condemnation at all. And it's just a group of people doing a wonderful thing. And yet it is this group of people who potentially was facing the most persecution, the most imminent death potentially.

And it starts off and Jesus introduces himself at the beginning of each letter. I love the way he introduces himself there. He's in this particular starting in verse eight, he says the words of the first and the last who died and came to life.

So he's introducing himself as the one who has experienced death. He's talking from the personal experience of death. He knows what it is. And he also came to life. He conquered death. He overcame it.

And he says, I know your tribulation and your poverty, but you are rich and the slander of those who say that you are not Jews. And there's some things that, you know, obviously very specific to the church in Smyrna, but he says, do not fear what you are about to suffer.

And then again, specific to Smyrna, he says, the devil's going to throw you some of you into prison and you're going to be tested for 10 days. You're gonna have tribulation. But then he says, be faithful unto death.

And I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, the one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death. And again, so we, it starts off with, with Christ, who he is.

Everything that comes next is tied up in who Christ himself is. That's, that's the comfort. We have that he is familiar with what we've experienced and he's powerful enough that he's overcome. This, this, what we're learning about the end, the second death and that yes, the tribulation and the difficulty and the struggle and the suffering of the first death is a very real part of life.

And here Christ is talking to this, this beautiful church, this righteous loving church in Smyrna. And he's telling them, listen, this is going to happen. You're going to suffer. It's going to be bad.

Be faithful. That's my call to you. He says, be faithful. Even though, you know, it is going to lead to death. And then he says, and I will give you the crown of life. Instead of experiencing the second death, which is a separation from God for all eternity and how you have access to the crown of life.

And again, as you, as you share these scriptures and you have these conversations with people, you have the opportunity to just sit on some of these truths, the glory in them to stop in prayer and praise God for who he is, is it brings a song to your mind to sing the truths of these scriptures.

And those are just the two of the big ones for me that, and then so many other passages, but those are the two that I like to frame those types of conversations with.

Okay. So then let me, you know, and that, and that's good. You know, I don't know how often you've had to do this. Maybe Pastor Dom, you might've had to do this, but going into a hospital room, as I've had to do with, with someone in a church that, you know, they're a believer, what, what kind of, how do you deal with that, Pastor Dom?

You know, what, what, what wisdom or counsel would you give?

Yeah. You know, I've, I've, I've done that on many, many occasions over the last, you know, 11 years as being a pastor. And I, you know, I find and, and those scriptures are really helpful too, brother.

What I find and I was talking to my, in fact, I was talking to Rachel about this the other day. What I find, Andrew is that for, when you go in there and you speak to believers, especially in hospitals, God, by his providence actually gives what I call this day of the game grace that they are, that these believers are ready to be with the Lord.

I mean, and they actually, and I'm, I'm, I'm being honest. I, they actually encourage me and I'm saying, man, I wish I had this type of theology when, when, when you go meet them and they're, they're actually, and though those scriptures brother are so helpful in what he was sharing, I have found more times than not.

They're like ministering to me because I'm saying to myself, man, I pray by God's grace that I have that zeal to actually want to, you know, be with the Lord. And, and, and I think God, you know, cause I remember Rachel telling me the other day, Pastor Andrew, that she was saying, man, you know, you think about these guys, we were talking about the people in Kiev and overseas or whatever, what's going on there, how God just empowers people, especially believers when they're coming to the point of death.

You see that with Paul and obviously some of the, the apostles that knew that that would be their fate. So again, sharing those scriptures, you, I mean, our brother touched on most of them, but a lot of times I, I just find them actually ministering to me because I'm saying to myself and I go in there to minister and, and, and obviously want to be there to comfort them, you know, to, to meet the Lord and be with the Lord.

But by God's grace, he's a good God. And he, I believe he, he empowers people to face that when it, when it's that time to come.

Yeah. And Eve, I don't know if you have anything you want to add to that.

Not really. I, I think for me, I know that this topic has come up in my podcast a few times and we always go back to the Philippians one 21 where Paul says for me to, to live as is Christ, but to die is gain.

For, for a believer when we go to heaven, it's, it's to our benefit. And that has always been a massive comfort to me when knowing when some of my saved family go to be with the Lord, that they're gaining so much better than what they had here, especially if they were sick at the end.

And, and this ultimate healing is, is leaving this decrepit sin cursed body and having that perfect communication with God restored.

That's a great passage to go to because so many, so many believers don't really understand. They, they, they, they get it reversed in that passage. They think that's talking about our life here and now as being the better thing.

But you actually read that Paul saying it's better to be dead. You know, he, he actually says he's, he uses a very interesting word in the Greek when he says he's hard pressed. It's a, it's a word that's used for basically when they would take a, an animal to slaughter, they would, they'd have these wedges so that it's very wide at one end, very narrow at the other end.

And as the, the, the cow or whatever goes down, it gets, it gets wedged in. And they do that so that when they slit its throat, it doesn't, you know, hurt anybody or hurt, you know, like ruin the meat and jump around.

So they wedge it in. That's what he says. He's hard pressed between life and death and he's a death is far better. And, and, you know, because he's going to be with Christ. So that's a, that's a great passage, Aaron.

Yes. There was one other thing I thought about that. I think it's really important thing when we're talking to a believer who was in this, this place in their life. And that is the truth that we learned in Matthew 6 34 about don't be anxious about tomorrow for tomorrow will be anxious for itself sufficient as the day as it is trouble.

There is so much, you know, you know, depending on how slow the process of death is, you know, you're meeting with people, hospice people, whatever else and they're preparing you for what comes next. And there are a lot of things like, you know you know, the pain that you're going to experience or the other side effects you're going to have from the drugs or whatever it is.

And there's so much tempting a person to be afraid in that moment because of what's going to happen. And just trying to draw their mind back to right here, right now, what does God want you to do right now?

What's the one thing that you need to say or do or feel or think or believe right now that's going to bring him the most glory. And then the next moment, what's the thing that you need to do that's going to bring him the next glory live in the, in the present.

And I think there's a way that we can live in the future. Like, you know, Abraham, who was looking for a city whose maker and builder was God, right? There's a way to look past the death to see the hope of the future.

Definitely. But there's this, that middle ground in between right now and my time with the Lord, when I'm absent from the body and present with him, that that's a good thing to not be thinking about because the temptation to anxiety and just to focus on where I am right now or focus on where I'm going to be.

Not that, not that nasty middle.

Comforting an Unbeliever at the End of Life

Yeah. You know, a passage that, and, and with these passages brought up, you know, Philippians is all about suffering, you know, the people who are suffering. Another good book would be first Peter where people are suffering, but I, for believers, I like to turn to second Corinthians five, that whole chapter.

I can't, I don't want to take the time to read the whole thing, but it just starts off with, for we know that if our earthly tent referring to our bodies, if our earthly tent, which is our, our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens.

Right. And so he starts to talk about that. That's like when, when this body of mine goes right, what do we, we have something greater to look forward to. And then you read through and he starts saying that we're a new creation, that the love of Christ should compel us.

But then he ends with, with one of the, the great verses of scripture, verse 20 and 21. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ as though God were making an appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf so that we might become the righteousness of God. And, and I can concur with what pastor Dom was saying, because I've had that experience where you're, you go in thinking you're going to be comforting somebody and they understand second Corinthians five, they're ready.

They can't wait to go. I had this with my mother-in-law when she was, she was living in our home for about a year and a half and she was ready to go home and be with the Lord. She just, she wanted to be, to go.

And, you know, we'd sit there and we wanted her there with us, but you, we'd see her suffering and just know that she wanted to be with Christ and that's the thing. So, so there's a more difficult situation though to deal with when we have to do counseling or try to comfort, whether it be an unsaved person or their family.

So, so let's start with the unsaved person themselves. Pastor Dom, I don't know if you've had to do hospital visits or house visits with an unsaved person. I know I've had to, I've been called to the hospital by a friend of a believer who's a friend that would ask me to go to a hospital of an unbeliever.

I remember being when we had someone I used to work with when I, you know, I was bivocational. So I was doing some secular work, still pastoring a church. And he was in the ICU and I was, because I was a pastor, I was, I was the only one other than family that could get in and see him.

And that makes a much different situation when you're dealing with someone who is just, you know, literally is with the one individual that I was speaking with that I worked with. He was days away from eternity.

And conversations like those are going to be more gospel focused, but it's also very difficult, especially if it's someone close to you, someone family. So let me open it up and I'll, I'll start with Pastor Dom this time and say, you know, in a situation like that, how do you, how do you deal with trying to, to deal with somebody who's just at that cusp of, of eternity possibly, and they don't know Christ.

You want to share the gospel. There could be some of their unsafe family around that might think it's inappropriate to talk about death. You might have, you know, people that think that, you know, you're upsetting the person by sharing the gospel, something they don't agree with.

What, what are your thoughts?

Sharing the Gospel With the Dying

Yeah, usually, and I've been in those situations and usually it's the family members that will, you know, invite you to the hospital and they may be believers and, and they obviously ask permission, you know, can I ask my pastor to come or things like that?

You know, so usually when you go there, they, they want you there. I mean, of course, or else you're not going to be there. And obviously families are a whole different, that's a different dichotomy, a different area, but you know, if, if they want you there, they invite you there and, and, and the person wants you there, you, you, you know, you let them know.

I, I've let them know that, you know, a lot of times you'll go in there and the family will step out and you have a one-on-one with the, with the guy or the woman and, and, you know, you just try to give them the gospel.

And, and I always point to my, I, you know, it's easy. It's easier for me because I always point to myself first and tell them, you know, how many years I did in prison and, and God is, is, is sovereign and he, he doesn't, you know, he can save at any time though.

I'm not going to, it's not that I'm, I'm, I'm offering this I'm, I'm just offering salvation as, as best as I know how and use my own example of where I was and where God had brought me today. I'm not offering fire insurance.

I'm not doing those things. I'm just saying, listen, you could not have been a worse sinner than me. I always use me. I always pointed back to me and I said, you know, I was in prison and I, I been in situations where I was involved with pistols being pointed at me.

And I mean, I go into that thing and say, it's not too late. And if they hear me, praise the Lord. And, and so I use that. I use myself a lot in those situations. And usually it's not hostile because you know, they want me there.

And, and, and, you know, more times than not, I just, as I'm speaking, I'm praying and praying God opens up their eyes. The family, the family issues of, you know, the Lord says sometimes our own family, they're the hardest ones to witness to.

And, and I've, I've, you know, that's a tougher play Pastor Andrew. I mean, but I, you know, when they let you go to the hospital, they invite you into the hospital. Hopefully there'll be open and hopefully they'll hear the gospel.

And that's what I'm there for. They give the gospel. So, but again, family's tough. You know, my dad died in prison. I wasn't a believer at the time. I had 11 months left on a prior federal prison sentence that I was in.

And my dad had a massive heart attack after getting like 12 years in prison. So I know what it is that those things are hard. So I, I, I grieve with you in that area Pastor Andrew for sure.

Yeah. So it is a thing where we're, we want to be there. The gospel is the most important thing in situations like this. And, and yet it's hard to, to share the gospel sometimes with people who their whole life have, have hated the gospel.

I know a pastor, a friend of mine who had someone, a family member, he was in the hospital visiting and they just, they hated the gospel message and was, was yelling at them when trying to share and not seeing the love that, you know, a Christian is trying to present at that.

And, and, and you do have to be sensitive at times like that, because you do have to realize that there's a lot of emotions for a person that is going through that, especially when they, if they know they're, they're near death, there's a lot of emotions.

And so you have to be very sensitive in that sense. Aaron, let me ask you is, you know, as a, as a, you know, Christian counselor, I don't know if you've had to deal with that, but what, what kind of counsel would you give to someone that is maybe they're, they're having to go and maybe not go to a hospital.

Maybe it's a family member, a friend they're at home and they, they know they're going to have a chance to go visit the person, but they know the person may not be alive much longer. What kind of counsel would you give someone?

Self-Examination, Motivation, and Knowing When to Stop

Yeah. I want to start with that idea of what about the person giving the gospel talk, going to talk to the unbeliever, whether that's us or somebody else. And I say, really, in all things, you know, we, we really do need to start with ourselves first.

We need to deal with the potential log in our own eye. And, you know, in this particular discussion, there are a lot of different logs that we bring to this issue. You know, sometimes my, my going to them and sharing the gospel with them is really just based out of my own fear.

Sometimes we actually are tempted to not share the gospel. Sometimes we're not super confident about the reality of hell. And, and like, we just, we just don't really, so we're not, we're not convinced in a way ourselves so much that we're willing to have these be the last words we're going to speak to this person, especially if it makes them mad.

Sometimes we, we quote unquote, want to be loving. And so in quote, unquote, being loving, we want to avoid uncomfortable talks. Sometimes let's just be honest. I can say that I have not experienced this myself, but I know people who have, we don't actually want this person to be saved.

They deserve this. They need to suffer the consequences. Sometimes that's a motivation that people have for not sharing the gospel.

Sometimes that was Jonah's problem, Jonah, right? I mean, want the Ninevites to be saved. He is, he did not like them.

They deserve this. Yeah. Yeah. Dom, I don't know anything about you or your family or how you felt about your father, but I've worked with a lot of at-risk young men and they, they couldn't care less if their dads died, you know?

Yeah. It's so, and sometimes honestly, we just kind of feel uncomfortable if they're like medical professionals in the room, feel uncomfortable saying it around them. Or sometimes we feel uncomfortable if the family has made it clear that they actually don't want us to talk about the gospel.

So there are so many things going on inside of us that we need to deal with first, cause you're going to be going into a, an inflammatory difficult. I mean, it's, it's a deathbed situation that this person has rejected the gospel up until now.

You need to make sure your heart is right. You need to make sure that you are going in it for the right reasons. And I love what Dom said about this idea of we're not trying to we're not trying to manipulate them.

We're not trying to coerce them. We're not, you know, cause again, we can't believe that the gospel is what it is and somehow believe that we're going to trick them into this or that we're going to persuade them or scare them into this.

So that's, that's a really big thing that we need to, again, some logs that we need to look at in ourselves first, but there's one other one that I think is maybe not so much a log, but something that we need to be prepared, right.

To at least consider. One time I spoke with a biblical counseling friend of mine and he was talking to me about how he was talking to a young lady who was threatening to kill herself. And he had worked with her.

She was at his house. His wife was there. She had been talking to her, you know, it was two in the morning. He had to go teach a university class the next day. And he said, listen, you know the truth and you know what you need to do.

And now I need to go to bed and I think you need to go to bed too. And on her way out the door, she's like, you know what? Well, I'm just, I'm just going to go home and I'm going to kill myself. And he says, I really pray that you're not going to.

Now he had done everything. He needed to do all the people who needed to know or already knew, but she left and his wife said to him, aren't you afraid? How can you go to sleep? You know? And he says, he's like, God is in control of this situation.