June 11, 2019 Show with Pete & Kelli Orta on “Apologetics in Your Home”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Welcome, good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 11th day of June 2019.

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And I am so thrilled to have back on the program Pete and Kelly Orta. Many of you who used to, or perhaps still do, love the genre of Christian rock.

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Well, you may recognize the name Pete Orta because he was the lead guitarist of the renowned

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Christian rock group and Gospel Hall of Fame inductees, Petra, from 1996 to 2000.

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And his wife, Kelly Orta, who has been on this program with Pete once before, will be joining us again.

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They're going to be continuing a discussion we began a while back. This will be

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Part 2 of Apologetics in Your Own Home. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pete and Kelly Orta.

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Thank you. It's great to have you guys back. I think for just the sake of those people who might be in a tiny minority,

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Pete, who have never heard of Petra, they perhaps never listened to Christian rock, they have no idea of the significance of that band in the music genre, especially within the

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Christian music genre. But tell us something about Petra. Well, that crowd is growing more and more the older I get.

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I'll tell you that. I usually, if you get a young fan, they're like, you used to play with Petra?

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That was my grandparent's favorite band. Man, Petra started in 1972.

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I was born in 1971. So, you know, I was able to just build my body of work upon that foundation that was set before.

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And I think Petra was probably one of the, or the, first Christian rock band to sing about the

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Bible. And I would say very much so, that they stuck pretty close to scripture and stories and things like that.

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So that, in my time, it didn't exist. There were very few successful Christian artists at the time that just wanted to give young people an alternative to not feel like they were missing out on the modern days of how to communicate.

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It's funny that there's still people in our network still that, you know, just think the organ is the only holy instrument

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God has ever created and acquired, and an electric guitar is not. I can't help them there.

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But it's just the way that music has grown, the way that it's evolved, and the way that it's communicating to the world today.

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And it would be like someone being offended that, you know, we've adopted the new iPhones that have come out, and we're still not on T9 flip phones.

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It's like, well, communication has changed. Music genre is a form of communicating, and I like that Petra did that, but at the same time didn't make the lyrics relevant to their time.

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They kept them biblical. Yeah. One of the things that I remember as a young Christian going to a

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Petra concert, I was glad that the group, unlike some other so -called

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Christian bands, were not running around in effeminate -looking clothing and spandex bodysuits and things like that.

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They did typically, you know, have perhaps longer hair than a lot of perhaps more senior citizen saints would approve of, but they didn't look like they were—what's the word

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I'm looking for? Unisex? Transgender?

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I don't know. They looked like men, you know. But I believe when

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I saw the group, that was before you were actually a part of the group, because, yes,

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I was a single Christian man, and you joined the group in 1996. I was already married a year—I'm sorry,

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I was already married five years by that time, so I saw Petra before you were part of the group.

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I have a funny story connected with that. I'm not going to say anybody's name, but I had been dating off and on a girl, a

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Christian girl, and I had bought tickets for us to see Petra. I bought them months in advance, and she called me up like a week before the concert, and she said, you know,

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Chris, I just want to let you know about something. I started seeing somebody, and it's developed into a very serious relationship, and, in fact, we may be heading for marriage, and so I just wanted to let you know about that, but my question is to you.

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Can I still go to Petra with you? That's awesome. And this was with the approval of her boyfriend.

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I don't think he was 100 percent comfortable with it. Anyway, I just had to bring that up.

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Absolutely. I remember I used to know Robert Sweet back in the day, the drummer for Striper, and I told him,

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I said, man, you're prettier than any girlfriend I've had to date. Well, one of the things that you and I agree upon, even though we might have some differences about what music should be in a worship service, there may be some differences, but we agree upon...

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Maybe not. Maybe not. Well, I know that we agree upon the fact that worship music primarily should be congregationally sung and participated in, whereas much of music in the church today, even outside of the realm of what would be called

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Christian rock, it could be any kind of music. It could be even just a praise -and -worship kind of music that even older folks might appreciate, but very often it is a show that's being put on in the church.

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It's not really a worship service. It's a performance. It's an entertainment portion of the service, where people just watch and listen and sway back and forth with their hands raised, and they don't really get involved in much else other than perhaps singing along a very famous or well -known chorus of a song.

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But would you agree with me that you are on the same page as that, that we need to be more focused on corporate worship, congregational worship, than having a band entertain us?

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Well, I will agree, because I think that it needs to be singable for the average person, and I think that it should be biblical, a

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Christ -centered message within that song instead of man -centered, and those are tough to find.

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I don't believe that the guitar should be screaming. I think you can mix it and kind of have it be like a little bed track.

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You don't want an instrument drawing attention like a lady with a big hat sitting in front of you in church.

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You want it to just all blend in and be nice.

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I said, but let me defend, because I am a musician, and I'll give one for the musical team that rarely gets to pipe in on this.

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No pun intended. A preacher can work on, and I've heard

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Alex or Beg, I've heard a lot of good pastors, solid pastors talk about, even

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Sproul, not putting somebody to sleep, working on your delivery, working on just the performance side and putting a sermon together and making sure you've got a good intro.

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You're weaving that through in an expository manner through Scripture, and they put in the tools that they need for their craft, but yet when they get there, it's all about Christ.

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The flock is getting fed. You can do that on your podcast. I do it on my podcast. We use the best mics we can.

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We listen when areas of pockets where we listen, we pull back. I mean, there's a skill.

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That's why guys have to go to seminary and practice in front of elders and their preaching style and develop their own voice.

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But when a singer does it, it's performing in an unbiblical manner. That's the only place where I would just get people to open up the perspective that it does happen.

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They do get a bad rap if they bring their very best. It's a performance now.

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So I would just say that if you've got some killer pipes and you are singing and you are leading and you've got, you know, to just do it tastefully.

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If you're going to do a lick, do it where it's tasteful. Don't do it all of the time.

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Make sure that your lead lines as a guitar player is tasteful. It fits the context of the song, the music.

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It doesn't distract. That's good music. And so, yes,

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I think there's a lot of performing out there. I can name a lot of bands that are not doing it right. I think most people want to show up.

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Even when they don't have a good biblical pastor, they'll say, but I love our worship. I believe too much is put around that.

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I believe it's creating emotional moments that is called the Holy Spirit. All of that is just horrible.

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But give the man or the woman a break who is showing up doing their craft extremely well.

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That's all I would say. Amen. And it was kind of, I happened to chuckle to myself when you said, you used the phrase, some guys get a bad rap.

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There are many Christians who think all rap is bad. I happen to actually, believe it or not,

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I do enjoy well -done Christian rap. I have fundamentalist friends who think it's all straight from hell, but I don't know how you could really make the case for that if you boiled it down to its essence.

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It's just rhyming. It's poetry. And what makes it good or bad are the lyrical content and also the persona or the imagery provided when this is being performed.

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Like, for instance, I've told people many times that if God bothered to include among the things that he most hates, a haughty look, well, many rap artists, hip -hop artists, are a haughty look on steroids.

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And the whole persona is arrogance, pride, and I hate it when

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I see, on occasion, Christian hip -hop artists, rappers, imitate that look with the very thick gold chains and the whole arrogant attitude and posturing.

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Even if you're singing things that you think are in adoration to God, you shouldn't be acting that way.

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But even though I do like, very much, some well -done Christian rap, there are some reformed, theologically reformed

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Christian rappers out there, I do not believe it has a place in a worship service for the same reasons I gave earlier.

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I believe that a worship service is supposed to be a congregational event, but that's what my conviction is.

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And I just want people to know that I am not just a stick in the mud and I don't have

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Pharisaic ideas or prohibitions against things that the Bible doesn't prohibit.

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I even enjoy a lot of secular music, as long as it is not dishonoring to God, doesn't have lyrics that are filthy or blasphemous or so on.

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And so there's my two cents for that. Maybe I put more than two cents in. No, I think we see eye to eye.

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Yeah, I agree. I agree. I really do. I think some of it is cultural, being a minority.

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I know that, for instance, the Spanish culture, they do a lot of Christian rap as well or reggaeton or anything like that.

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Our culture is very expressive. We're very animated. We come from some pretty hard, tough backgrounds and a lot of times what rap does compared to just normal pop music is rap is storytelling about where people have come from.

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So it could have a look of tough. It could have a look of this and that, but I think it's just in context.

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I think it's more of like, are you expressing? I know when I'm preaching, my wife is white.

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I'm Spanish. I know when I'm preaching, her culture of people look at it as like, is he angry?

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My culture is like, yes, he's passionate. So I think there's just a lot of disconnect too in the reform circle on how other ethnic groups worship the

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Lord as well. I don't think I've ever heard that talked about, but I'm not getting into social justice or anything like that.

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But we are a different group of people, and I know black Americans are different than Hispanics, where I come from.

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Man, I think if you're just lyrics are biblical, you keep your heart in check, and you're doing it to the glory of God, man,

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I think it can be some good stuff out there. Yes, and I love well -done black gospel music.

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I love the enthusiasm and joy that's often poured into it. I know, love it.

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I love how just compassionate or passionate they are, my people as well.

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And, of course, we'll probably get emails and phone calls that this, what you're saying in and of itself is racist.

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Is it? Oh, well. You know that everybody will find a reason to complain about something, and obviously

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I'm assuming when you say things like, they are a passionate people and so on, you're basically saying that culturally that is very often the case, but there are black folks who are just as nerdy and dull as white folks.

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Yeah, but just culturally, if you jump into a white church, you jump into a Spanish church, man, the black churches are just very animated, very passionate.

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Latin churches, we look more angry. I mean, when you go to, I remember going to Greece and being told by somebody that we were visiting, you're going to find people that look like they're about to get into a fight on the side of the street.

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They're not. They're using their hands and they talk aggressively because that's how they are here.

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It's just awesome to have so many different people in the spectrum of humanity, and I think that we should allow liberties and not call everything unholy or ungodly or charismatic and doctrinal.

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Amen. By the way, I want to give our listeners our email address in case they want to join us on the air with a question of your own.

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It is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com And let's see.

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We already have... This is not the theme, by the way. We are going to be discussing apologetics in the home, but I think judging from your...

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or knowing of, I should say, your background, this is an appropriate question. We have

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John in Bangor, Maine who says, It grieves me that there are churches who very quickly will split and have infighting and even wars amongst themselves over music that is performed in a church service.

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And I understand that sometimes a parting of ways is necessary, but I don't think it always has to be.

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One of the most troubling aspects about this is that nobody in our day and age seems to really care much at all about what the senior saints think about the music that is being played.

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They don't care if the senior saints are being alienated. And I was wondering what your guest's opinion on this is.

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Man, I can see both sides. I really can. I think that we fall into error when we make a preference of doctrine.

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And I think that's when we start getting split up. I think that we don't need to be so top 40.

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I believe that to have a singable song that a congregation can sing along with, it's not formatted like a top 40 song.

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It's not in the same key. It's lower than a top 40 song. It doesn't have the same production.

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So I think that if it's getting just too crazy, then it's probably bleeding over to just a performance.

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Sometimes the older folks are having a hard time with maybe the volume of things.

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But I think that most of all, a lot of those old songs are doctrinally sound, and I love those songs.

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And I think that you should have a mixture of the hymns that they remember and then a few of the new ones that people are writing that are really well done well.

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But most of the time, I believe, if I could speak on it, not knowing every church split out there that's happened, but it's wanting to keep the good old days present when communication is changing.

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And I think we have to separate how we communicate versus not making the

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Bible relevant and not making music, not changing the lyrics of how we should sing to worship the

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Lord, but at the same time just delivering something that, I mean, we all work on laptops.

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I'm using a cell phone right now. We're all using social media to get the Gospel out and move that forward and be a part of the

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Great Commission in different ways, but yet people make their preferences of how they grew up and how they've always seen it a doctrine.

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And I think that's wrong, too. I think we should be flexible and not allow those little things to remove us from our church family.

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Amen, I agree. And, of course, I think that all people, young and old, have a certain realm of music that they both can appreciate.

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I don't think that young people need to impose very loud, deafening music upon the senior saints because there is no doubt something within their genre of music that they enjoy that would appeal or at least, at the very least, be more tolerable to the much older saints in the congregation.

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And even some of the most raucous hard rock groups have ballads and things that young people enjoy hearing and singing along with and so on.

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I mean, that's proof that they can tolerate and even enjoy more tranquil music.

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And I think there's actually something wrong with anybody that doesn't have some kind of joy singing the classic hymns that are perhaps sung traditionally to classical music and so on.

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Why that would get you in such an uproar, just because you can't bang your head to it,

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I don't know. I think it was Michael Horton who said that the great hymns that are lasting hymns throughout the centuries have been written by men and women who were saturated in the scriptures, who really knew the scriptures.

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Very often they were pastors who wrote these hymns. Very often they were theologians. And unfortunately in our modern day, as you even attested to, you have some

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Christian groups having their lyrics driven by marketing executives that might not even be saved.

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And just to let our listeners know, if you want to hear a fascinating interview that I conducted with Pete Orta a number of months ago, just go to the archive of Iron Trip and Zion Radio where it says

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Past Shows Podcast. If you type in Orta, O -R -T -A, you will hear his previous interview and the previous interview we conducted with both he and his wife.

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But Pete was not a born -again believer when he was performing not only with Petra, but even when he went into a quote -unquote

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Christian solo career with a first album, the debut album being titled Born Again, Pete admits now that he was not born again when that was recorded or in all of his professional music career with Petra or as a solo

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Christian artist. So I just thought I'd let you know that that would be a fascinating interview for all of you to listen to.

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I do agree with what you said about you can find a happy medium because it takes talent to actually strike the multitudes.

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For instance, you've got certain independent films that you might go see or something that's just a drama or something that's heavy in action or a superhero movie or things like this, and then you get the blockbusters.

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You get the movies that are just the timeless ones that hit. It takes talent to do that, and I think it takes some talent to go, you know what, music is like that.

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The classics, the ones that hang around, hit the multitude, and I think you can bring that style in that will hit everybody.

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Everybody can go, that's good music. Those are good lyrics, and I think you can agree on that.

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There is that genre of music that's pop, popular. The majority sees the gifting in it.

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Amen. Well, we're going to go to our first break right now, and when we return, we'll jump right into part two of our topic that we began a number of months ago on apologetics in your own home.

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And if you have a question on that issue, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And what do you know, my computer shut down while we were talking, so I've got to reboot this computer.

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While I'm rebooting this computer, I would like you, Kelly, since we've been hearing a lot from Pete right now,

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I want to hear from you when in your life as a

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Christian did apologetics specifically become something of great interest and passion to you?

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And I know that some people might think that I'm a misogynist by saying this, but I am saying this because I've heard some

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Christian women say this. Some Christian women that I have met and that I know have said things like, that's man stuff, yeah

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I love the word of God, I love to worship God, but this deep delving into the word of God on deep mysterious theological matters, that's more for men.

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But thankfully, even though that is a group of women that certainly do exist, there are more and more ladies who are loving apologetics, and they are doing so without overstepping any kind of biblical bounds, without leaping out of a complementarian understanding of Christian theology and apologetics and church order and so on.

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And so if you could, why don't you let us know how this became a passion of yours? Well, I would say probably it was when we started our ministry in Triumph, when we started taking in the young men.

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And I wouldn't even necessarily say it was like an extreme passion for me at that point. It was more about, again, me wanting to make sure that I understood what

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I believed and why I believed it, because growing up in a charismatic church, that was just never mentioned, it was never taught.

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I just believed whatever was being taught from the pulpit without really questioning and asking for myself.

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And so I would say it was at that point and just really just started studying and learning.

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And I'm not one of those that would say that it just should be the men.

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I do believe that we all need to understand our faith and be able to defend it, and especially women to be able to do that along with their husbands for their children.

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I'm not much of a debater. It's just not my personality type to get in debates and stuff like that.

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I do shy away from that. But I do think apologetics is extremely important, because somebody can know all kinds of information, but if we don't know how to at least be able to explain it to someone, then it puts us in a bad position to walk away feeling like we didn't do enough or that we kind of messed it up when we had an opportunity to possibly steer somebody to Christ and give them a better understanding, if that answers your question.

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Yes, and of course there is a biblical command that older women teach the younger. So how is an older woman going to appropriately teach a younger woman without having any idea of what the meaning of Scripture is?

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It doesn't mean that every woman or man needs to learn the original languages of Scripture or anything like that.

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But we'll get more into this discussion on apologetics in the home after we come back from our first station break.

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And once again, if you want to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pete and Kelly Orta after these messages from our sponsors. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

37:55

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

38:00

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

38:07

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc.

38:16

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

38:21

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

38:31

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

38:38

.nyc. Have a great day. Hey, this is

38:46

Pete Orta, former guitar player for the Grammy award winning Christian rock band, Petra. I'd like to invite you to my new podcast called

38:53

Christian Conversations Unfiltered. This channel is much different than my sermon podcast. The episodes are intimate conversations with people who

39:01

I enjoy about topics that I can't really unbox from the pulpit. Each episode is unproduced, unedited and unapologetic.

39:08

Conversations that might not only help you answer some relevant questions you might be struggling with, but also help create some questions in your head that you might not have even ever thought of.

39:17

The purpose of this podcast is to help people apply their theology while broadening their biblical worldview.

39:23

So go to PeteOrta .com, that's P -E -T -E -O -R -T -A dot com and click subscribe to podcast and then choose what podcast you'd like to hear, if not both, and what platform works best for you.

39:36

Can't wait for you to join us. God bless. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

39:43

The man behind the voice that you just heard in that ad and his wife, Pete and Kelly Orta, are our guests today and they are discussing part two of a theme that we began a number of months ago,

39:56

Apologetics in Your Own Home. And if you'd like to join us with a question, our email address is

40:02

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and please, as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

40:10

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous, if your question involves a personal and private matter. And if you could, before we go into any audience questions or even further into our discussion on Apologetics in Your Own Home, Pete, why don't you tell our listeners more about the podcast that we just advertised.

40:29

Well, I've got a couple of podcasts. I've got a sermon podcast that most pastors have and I release that every

40:38

Sunday. And also, man, I've had the privilege of having some amazing conversations in my life.

40:50

I have been blessed with curiosity. I'm very inquisitive.

40:56

And I've always said that if I sat down with Michael Jordan at a dinner,

41:02

I would pull more from him than the average person just because I just like questions and I'd like to know why and what makes people tick.

41:14

And I've had such amazing conversations throughout just my life, just being so curious with people.

41:22

And I'm very aware and want to know the dynamics of how somebody got to their place in life that I just decided to start recording these because they've benefited me so much.

41:35

They've stretched my worldview. They have challenged my Christianity. Iron sharpens iron.

41:41

And I don't know how much of that is happening on a day -to -day with most people.

41:48

Conversations are to show that there is just a whole other perspective out there sometimes.

41:57

So in other words, you are also interviewing people that are not believers just to pick their brain and perhaps be used as a vessel by the

42:04

Lord to lead them to Christ. I have interviewed non -believers, neuroscientists who's not claiming

42:14

Christianity. I've interviewed people from all different denominations as well.

42:23

From charismatic to Baptist, Reformed, and you name it.

42:28

I will have a conversation with anyone just about if there's something to say or to kind of break apart in a good way.

42:39

I don't know if you're familiar with Jeff, pastor of Apologia Church alongside

42:44

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Jeff Durbin has a program where he has not only interviewed

42:51

Christians but he's also interviewed people like Ben Stein and others who are not in the

43:00

Christian faith but have something of importance to say. I always appreciate hearing things like that when they are done appropriately.

43:11

So how can our listeners find this podcast, or actually all of your podcasts?

43:18

My website, PeteOrta .com It's P -E -T -E -O -R -T -A .com

43:24

If anybody's local, it'll lead you to our church, it'll lead you to the different podcasts and some other things here and there.

43:36

By the way, I misspoke. I know that although I'm sure that Jeff Durbin would love to interview

43:45

Ben Stein. What I meant to say is Ben Shapiro. Ben Stein is actually a pretty fascinating guy.

43:51

He actually directed and produced that documentary called Expelled. I don't know if you ever saw that.

43:59

It's a fascinating documentary on the horrors that are going on under the name of education and the modern education system.

44:10

It came out, I don't know, maybe a decade ago. But Ben Stein is not a

44:17

Christian, but he seems to have a lot of affinity with at least the moral and social ideas or principles,

44:25

I should say, of Christians. In fact, R .C. Sproul interviewed him years ago. He, at one time, was a speech writer for President Nixon.

44:33

You would recognize him probably most quickly from his hilarious

44:40

TV commercials that perhaps aren't on so much anymore. But he did the ad for the

44:46

Clear Eyes, a very droning, boring voice. But a lot of people who watch those commercials probably have no idea that they're listening to a brilliant conservative thinker.

45:01

Let me go now to... We have a listener in Cork, Ireland.

45:09

Mary in Cork, Ireland says, Hi Chris, Pete and Kelly. I studied a module on apologetics in Munster Bible College under Dr.

45:21

Ted Cable and we looked at Kockel's approach.

45:26

That's Greg Kockel. We look at Kockel's approach to his book, Tactics, a

45:32

Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions. Kockel says something to this effect.

46:11

He refers to this as putting a stone or pebble in one's shoe.

46:17

I know there are God -ordained moments when the fruit is ripe and ready to be picked, but generally it takes a few times to hear the truth of the gospel.

46:30

Well, I would agree on one thing that, well probably on several, but I agree that we can't control the outcome and we don't know.

46:41

There's nothing that we can do to change somebody's mind, but that's spoken kind of in a way where you don't want to assume that that's the first time they've ever heard the gospel.

46:54

I mean, we don't know if it's going to be the actual gospel presentation that is going to bring a conversion.

47:03

I mean, we don't know that. So, as far as like closing the sale, you know, kind of talk like that,

47:11

I think that it just depends on how the Holy Spirit has set up the encounter.

47:19

I know that when I'm out there witnessing, if I'm out there doing street witnessing,

47:25

I'm probably never going to see that person again, and I'm going to be a lot sharper and a lot more pointed, and I am going to ask very, very tough questions.

47:37

I deal with people that are nonbelievers all the time. On the other side, where I'm seeing them week after week, the approach is different.

47:46

You know, I do have some time somewhat, and I know somebody can say, well you don't know that they could die tomorrow.

47:52

That's true for anybody, but for the most part, if I'm in relationship with you, there's a slower approach.

48:00

If it's just one at a time, you're going to drink out of a fire hydrant. Kelly, any thoughts on your part when you're having conversations with especially the lost, how you might approach something like this?

48:15

And I think that Pete has already said, or made an excellent point, that the situation and circumstance and the person may dictate your approach.

48:27

Obviously, the Bible or the biblical truth is always the same, but the manner in which you share that might be different.

48:35

As Pete said, you might be in a bus with somebody and you might never see them again. But anyway, if you want to add anything to that.

48:44

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with him. I think that we do have to look at the situation as far as just how we've met them.

48:56

And for me personally, I am not around as many non -believers as Pete is because of being in the home more and pretty much

49:05

I'm at home in church kind of thing. And if I'm out, it's usually with friends that are in the church and their children are in the church.

49:12

But I do have friendships that I've had for years just even from high school.

49:18

And even with them, it's been a thing where it's a slow deal where I don't hesitate to talk about the

49:24

Lord with them. I talk about what He's done in my life and how things are going.

49:30

I'm not real pushy about it because I want to be considerate, but yet I want them to hear how

49:37

I am a different person than who I was and I want them to see it as well. But I am cautious because I want to keep making sure that I'm not turning them off, if that makes sense.

49:52

And again, I know that the Holy Spirit is the one who's in complete control of that, that I can't do anything to mess it up, but I still feel like I want to use wisdom when

50:03

I am with my friends and getting their perspective on things. Because in my earlier days when

50:10

I was younger with my personality type, I could be kind of brash and still can be.

50:15

And so I'm really aware of that about my personality and I want to do the right thing,

50:24

I guess, and just honor the Lord and talking about Him and what

50:30

He's done in my life. And I don't want to make things a debate and the kind of people that I'm around and that I'm friends with, they're not that way anyway.

50:38

So I haven't had a ton of experience as an adult being put in that situation.

50:45

I actually did when I was in high school and I didn't handle it probably very well. There was a lot of liberals in the high school that I went to.

50:52

I went to a magnet school and super smart kids and just lots of different, just very much diverse.

51:01

But I know that I didn't handle some things right. But it's funny how even knowing that a specific person that I can think of, she still comments on Facebook stuff just with such kindness towards me.

51:15

So I guess I did something right because she is very much a liberal. And she hasn't dropped me as a friend, if that makes sense, or befriended me.

51:25

She just keeps chiming in on Pete's stuff and my stuff and that's been encouraging.

51:31

But anyway, I say all that to say I completely agree with him that we do have to be wise under the circumstance of whatever the timing is with that specific person.

51:45

Now I don't know if I told you two this story the last time you were on, but I know that I've told this story a couple of times at least on this show.

51:53

So those of you who have heard this story, please forgive me. I don't want any eye rolling. Here we go again with this story.

52:02

I had a friend who is now in eternity with Christ named Bill Holfacker and he was a deacon at the church where I was saved.

52:11

And Bill had an interesting way about him. And one day my late wife

52:21

Julie asked me if I could get some assistance from men in the church to help a friend of hers move out of her apartment and move the furniture and so on.

52:33

There were probably five or six guys and Bill Holfacker was one of them. When they entered into this woman's apartment

52:43

Bill's very first words from this complete and total stranger were Hi, my name is

52:49

Bill. Do you know where you would spend eternity if you died tonight? And this woman freaked out.

52:55

She pulled me aside and said Did you bring a serial killer into my house? What on earth? This guy's creeping me out and she was terrified.

53:03

Well, years later I'm in a restaurant with my wife and I hear a familiar voice behind me and I turn around and it's this woman who is having dinner with her new husband, a

53:19

Christian husband and I said to her, Wow, I haven't seen you in years tell me about your life.

53:26

And she said Well, I'm a Christian now and my husband is a Christian and I said, Really?

53:31

Well, praise God. How did that happen? And she said, Remember that guy that you had come help move furniture?

53:38

That question that he asked me haunted me for a couple of years.

53:44

I couldn't sleep at night thinking about that. And the Lord even used that to lead her to Christ.

53:50

Now, I'm not just because the Lord used that to save this woman I don't necessarily recommend that's the first words to come out of your mouth when you're meeting somebody especially when you know you're going to have a few hours perhaps to talk and get to know her but even though that might have been tactically inappropriate at least

54:13

Bill had the courage of his convictions to tell the truth rather than let introvertedness because I have a feeling just because of the way he spoke and his posturing that this was a lot for Bill to do

54:28

I think because he was I believe is introverted so I think it was commendable that unlike many people who would never say a single word at the risk of offending someone or having them think that you're weird he at least cared more about the person's eternal soul and about God and his word than he did about his own personal feelings or their feelings

54:54

Well I was going to say real quick about that I do believe that there are times and that when the

55:00

Lord just man just puts a fire in you to say something and I mean I've seen that happen with Pete before where he's been in front of somebody and it's just you know it was different than sometimes the way he does it at other times so you know

55:14

I'm definitely not against it I mean obviously look what it did look how the Lord used it I mean obviously I don't think it's common but I think that there's definitely probably times where he just put something in us just to say something because it's just it's the time for it even though it may not feel like it to everybody else

55:33

Anyway that's my thought Well we have to go to our midway station break right now it's our longer than normal station break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they air their own public service announcements and commercials while we air our own commercials that are heard globally.

55:52

They have to localize to Lake City Florida as an FCC requirement so that's why they require this break they need to do their own thing as it were during this break so please use this time wisely not only write down questions for Pete and Kelly Orta to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

56:15

but also please write down the information provided by our advertisers because we depend upon our advertisers to exist and the more you patronize our advertisers the more you contact them and make use of whatever services or products they offer the more likely they're going to remain our advertisers which means the more likely we are going to remain on the air.

56:38

So please write down all of the information that you can during the station break that our advertisers provide and even if you don't think that you're going to use or be able to patronize our advertisers at that moment you might want to store that somewhere in a file where you may use it in the future like for instance some of the churches that you're hearing advertise you might not live anywhere near there but one day you might be vacationing near one of these churches or you may have a friend that a friendship developed that involves somebody that lives in that area or you may have a family member that moves to that area or you may move to that area in the future.

57:21

So you never know when you can patronize one of our advertisers one or more so please keep that in mind and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Pete and Kelly Orta on Apologetics in Your Own Home at chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

57:39

Please as always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

57:45

U .S .A. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

57:53

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

58:02

Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com

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That's getworldnow .com I rely on World because I trust the reporting

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I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

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Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

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forward slash podcast That's W for World, N for News G for Group dot org forward slash podcast

59:16

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years

59:22

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind.

59:31

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

59:37

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology

59:43

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

59:49

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

59:57

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for one million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states

01:00:10

In Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

01:00:22

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state I recommend that you call

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Dan Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878

01:00:41

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:00:47

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com Hey, this is

01:00:56

Pete Orta, former guitar player for the Grammy award -winning Christian rock band Petra. I'd like to invite you to my new podcast called

01:01:03

Christian Conversations Unfiltered. This channel is much different than my sermon podcast. The episodes are intimate conversations with people who

01:01:11

I enjoy about topics that I can't really unbox from the pulpit. Each episode is unproduced unedited and unapologetic.

01:01:19

Conversations that might not only help you answer some relevant questions you might be struggling with but also help create some questions in your head that you might not have even ever thought of.

01:01:28

The purpose of this podcast is to help people apply their theology while broadening their biblical worldview.

01:01:34

So go to PeteOrta .com. That's P -E -T -E -O -R -T -A dot com and click subscribe to podcast and then choose what podcast you'd like to hear if not both and what platform works best for you.

01:01:47

Can't wait for you to join us. God bless. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:02:08

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:02:18

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:02:32

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:02:37

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy and sobriety.

01:02:51

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

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That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

01:03:17

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you. There are four ways you can help.

01:03:47

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

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and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

01:04:19

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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And don't forget you can call www .cvbbs .com at 800 -656 -0231

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Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 430 p .m. Eastern Time. They still have a phenomenal offer where if you purchase any amount of books or other

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For that book, the larger book, you need to put that book in the cart, and then you need to add $50 worth of merchandise in the cart, and then you need to enter the coupon code

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01:08:34

Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. We have just a couple of events that we want you to be aware of before we return to our interview.

01:08:45

In December, I am heading back to my old stomping grounds in Manhattan for the

01:08:51

Foundations Conference. This is a phenomenal conference that I urge every one of you to attend if at all possible.

01:09:01

This is going to be held Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th in Manhattan, and the speakers are always extraordinary, and this time is no exception, this

01:09:15

December. We have Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, whose voice you've been hearing every day promoting New Covenant Church NYC, one of our sponsors.

01:09:23

He is founder of One Passion Ministries and one of the most powerful preachers on the planet

01:09:29

Earth. Paul Washer is also in that category of one of the most powerful preachers alive today.

01:09:35

Jeff Thomas is another man of God that I just recently interviewed again that is extraordinary.

01:09:41

Rev. Armin Tomasian, a young man who I truly believe, without exaggeration or flattery,

01:09:47

I believe he's going to be a household name over the next decade in Reform circles because he is just that powerful and that gifted at preaching.

01:09:57

His gifts are far beyond his youth. Richard Colwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley, I have not yet heard preached, but Sermon Audio selected them, so I'm sure they are extraordinary as well.

01:10:08

So if you want to join me in December 19th and 20th, that's a Thursday and Friday, right during the

01:10:14

Christmas season which is the best time of year to visit Manhattan, go to thefoundationsconference .com

01:10:21

www .thefoundationsconference .com and you'll have all the information that you need. Then in January, I am going to be packing up my bags again and heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

01:10:33

College Park, Georgia to the Georgia International Convention Center. That is where the

01:10:39

G3 conference is being held and I will be manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there.

01:10:45

G3 for your information stands for Gospel, Grace and Glory and the theme this

01:10:51

January 2020 is Worship Matters. Something that we were even talking about earlier in today's program with Pete Orta.

01:11:01

The roster of people speaking at this is extraordinary as it always is.

01:11:07

The first speaker is Kosti Hinn. He is, believe it or not, the nephew of the world -renowned notorious charlatan and heretic

01:11:17

Benny Hinn and Kosti is not offended by me saying that because he has made it a part of his life's mission to expose people like his uncle and those in the

01:11:27

Word of Faith movement for the frauds and charlatans and heretics that they are. And also with hopes to lead them to Christ because I have a very good friend

01:11:35

John Sampson who was once a Word of Faith preacher, teacher and talk show host who is now a

01:11:42

Reformed Baptist and a cessationist on top of that. Kosti Hinn is also a

01:11:48

Reformed Baptist and a cessationist and he is pastoring in California. I strongly recommend that you hear him whenever you get a chance to hear him speak.

01:11:57

David Miller is also on the roster a phenomenal preacher. Derek Thomas, a man known to the vast majority of people in the

01:12:05

English -speaking world of the Reformed faith. My friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries that I have known since 1995.

01:12:14

Joel Beeky who I have known about as long, another phenomenal brother. Josh Bice, the founder of the

01:12:22

G3 Conference. Once again, Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer, they are on this roster as well.

01:12:27

My friend Dr. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, the

01:12:33

Calvinistic ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention. And Votie Balcom, who is an extraordinary man in our day and age, one of the finest preachers alive.

01:12:43

If you want to register, go to g3conference .com g3conference .com I also strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth if you have a business or a parachurch ministry that you want to promote because every year they have over 5 ,000 people attend this conference.

01:13:01

This January the conference is Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th.

01:13:07

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01:16:18

We are now back with our guests Pete and Kelly Orta and that is the same address, email address where you would send them a question.

01:16:26

chrisorenson at gmail .com chrisorenson at gmail .com and please at least give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:16:36

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Pete and Kelly, I'd like you to begin and either one of you may start with some basic building blocks for apologetics in your own home.

01:16:55

How one goes about knowing what to start in the realm of apologetics and of course just like many other things in life it may differ greatly very widely from family to family because you may have families that are far more biblically literate and astute and accomplished and you might start in a different place than a person or family that has, they're all very new

01:17:24

Christians perhaps. So give us some ideas and either one of you may start. Go ahead babe.

01:17:37

Pete, are you there? I think Pete is gone. I had it muted.

01:17:45

I will say this. I'll start off by saying this that we don't live in a day in the day and age that we can allow very much time to go past before we talk about our kids about certain topics.

01:18:06

Let's say like talking to them about sex. When I was a kid before you would run into it in the world there was a certain age probably junior high, things like this that the world could get to you before your parents did.

01:18:23

Now the world can touch your kids quicker at a younger age than you could when you were young, during my time.

01:18:32

There's internet, there's all kinds of things that I mean we all have to become super protective.

01:18:39

We all have become super protective, Christian or not, on what's coming into our home through these devices.

01:18:46

So these conversations are having to start quicker. I have four kids and I've had to talk to them about sexual things and stuff like this at a younger age as time goes on because it's just so accessible.

01:19:04

So in that, when it comes to a Christian belief

01:19:09

I think that a lot of times we think that maybe they should be a little older so they can comprehend what we're talking about and we just kind of give them milk in a

01:19:19

Sunday school class or children's daycare type of maybe a Christian daycare or something like this and they're learning

01:19:26

David and Goliath and learning Jonah and the well and stuff like this. But they are being informed at a younger age and at a comprehension level that I think is higher than what we might think.

01:19:40

So saying that, we try to reach our kids super fast before the world does.

01:19:48

And one of the things that I will do with my kids is I will play around with them and go ahead and prepare them for the fight that's out there.

01:19:58

The fight that is out there is to question the origin of their belief.

01:20:03

So for instance, a few months ago I was practicing with my kids again.

01:20:08

We do jujitsu so we have this thing called a live roll where you're learning class and then at the end of the class you have to pick a partner and actually fight with them.

01:20:20

And so it helps you because you don't want the shock of a real fight or be punched or choked out in a real fight for the very first time.

01:20:31

This is when you're experiencing it. It keeps you calm if you're used to doing this every week. If I'm ever attacked it won't feel any different than the live roll session.

01:20:41

So I'm taking this philosophy with my kids on apologetics. And I don't want the first time that they hear something that's going to rock their face to come from a stranger and then not have anything to fall back on so I do it myself.

01:20:54

So I was telling them goodnight one night and I said you know what guys?

01:21:00

I said you're just a Christian because we are. Your parents are Christians because,

01:21:05

I mean you're a Christian because your parents are Christians. If we would have been raised you in China you would have been a

01:21:14

Buddhist or India, a Hindu or if it would have been any other, we would have been

01:21:19

Atheist, you would have been Atheist, you would have agreed just as strongly with whatever belief that we brought to you.

01:21:27

If we were Mormon, if we were Muslim, you would agree with it because you are brainwashed.

01:21:34

And one day and these are my kids, they're very young they're, you know, 11 and 12.

01:21:39

I said in one day you're going to grow up and realize you've got your own life, your own brain, your own way that you want to think and you're going to realize that you were just following along what we did.

01:21:52

So you're not really Christian. And they were, they knew that I was live rolling with them.

01:22:01

They knew that I was playing this apologetic game that we play. They didn't know how to answer it and they were like, ah, they were just rocked.

01:22:09

Great, they're rocked in front of their coach. This is fine, this is what sparring does. And I said, what, this is how you answer it.

01:22:18

We're all brainwashed. Where's your, where's the origin of your thought?

01:22:24

Where do your ideas come from? You didn't create your own ideas. The only people that think they create their own ideas are

01:22:30

Stalin or you know, or Hitler or Charles Manson thinks he creates his own ideas.

01:22:37

So we all have been indoctrinated by a group think. We've all been, we've all gained our ideas from other people and if you're an atheist you have to become an atheist.

01:22:49

So I'm talking to them in this way and then say, embrace that you were brainwashed. Reverse that word and say that you're indoctrinated.

01:22:58

Then tell everyone that you're indoctrinated as well and let's start from there. So just nice little things and conversations that we're practicing at home.

01:23:08

We're doing some instructional stuff that my wife will here tell you how she builds on those blocks with how she homeschools them and the type of how she is proselytizing them and raising them in the way of the gospel.

01:23:24

But at the same time that we have live role sessions so that when these thoughts hit their mind it's not the first time.

01:23:33

Yeah, just, I mean as far as you know we are, him and I are extremely different in the way that we approach things.

01:23:40

I typically kind of allow him to handle more of the sparring and like you said the live rolling and I when

01:23:48

I'm with them and we're going through things and I a lot of times will use resources.

01:23:55

So whether it's again doing a Bible study or whether it's reading about reformers in history or whether it's using, there's a lot of times we do videos.

01:24:07

Right now media actually does have some good videos for, that talk about evolution and science and right now we're going through, oh my gosh

01:24:20

I just went blank. I'll talk about, I'll remember it in a minute. Anyway, so we're watching some videos and we're going to be reading

01:24:27

Pilgrim's Progress there it is, it just left my brain. So we're watching a video kind of to prepare and give them a little bit of an understanding about what

01:24:38

Pilgrim's Progress is and then we're going to go through the book together. So that's kind of more my approach whereas he

01:24:45

Pete is just more of an intuitive and has the questions to ask and can get them to really think and so that's kind of how we hit it two -fold between the two of us.

01:24:58

Yeah, when you were speaking, I don't know if I mentioned this the first time that you two were on together speaking on this subject, but when you were speaking

01:25:08

I was ushered back to a memory of the classical

01:25:16

Christian school that was housed in the former church where I was a member on Long Island before moving to Pennsylvania Grace Christian Academy, classical

01:25:27

Christian schools are Christian schools that include in the curriculum things from the secular culture that are believed are important for Christians to be aware of.

01:25:42

Christian young people should know something about the lies of Darwinian evolution for instance so that they can biblically and successfully and intelligibly respond to things like that when they are confronted with them in the world and as you were saying

01:26:01

Pete it would be wrong for children to be let loose in the world unprepared to be hearing things for the very first time that they've never heard and be left dumbstruck.

01:26:14

Am I right? Right, yes. Because think about it, other religions that we would,

01:26:22

I'll take the heat on this that we would say is occult or apostate for instance like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or groups like this, they're not allowed to question their religion, to question their teachers and they are not allowed to debate out in the world and so they get rocked and they get left to look like idiots in this type of thinking world this information world and they're behind which

01:26:56

I don't mind, but Christians seem to be falling into that same group as well where we don't know why we believe something.

01:27:07

Right, and I want to make it clear that the Christian school to which I am referring did not teach

01:27:13

Darwinian evolution as an acceptable alternative way of thought they are just educating children on the lies that they will be confronted with in the secular culture and Paul the

01:27:30

Apostle even referred to secular and even the writings of the false religions within Greece and so on not because he was presenting them as necessarily true or not,

01:27:46

I mean there are some things that are universally true, but obviously he was a student of the culture to which he was speaking and I think that that is an important element of Christian apologetics is that we don't act as if we could care less or should

01:28:06

I say we couldn't care less about what other people believe and are passionate about if we love people we should grow to learn what they believe, where they're coming from, etc.

01:28:19

not that that's of the most primary importance the most primary importance

01:28:24

I'm sure you agree is to know the word of God, but I think it is important to know what others believe as much as possible as long as it doesn't eclipse your study of the scripture.

01:28:37

Am I right on that? Yes, and I respect people with different thoughts as well and really appreciate them because Muhammad Ali wouldn't be

01:28:48

Muhammad Ali if it wasn't for George Foreman or Joe Frazier, I mean you've got to respect your opponent and I'll tell you this

01:28:55

I think the growing number of atheists have forced Christians to know their stuff.

01:29:03

We have a listener in Asheboro, North Carolina, Grady that says, great show brother

01:29:09

Chris, brother Pete and sister Kelly, first I want to thank you for your openness on the last show that's greatly appreciated so we know how to pray for you.

01:29:21

My question is, in this day with so many single moms, how do we get them interested in apologetics so that they can have these conversations with their children?

01:29:33

I assume he's emphasizing single moms because there's no man there to lead the house spiritually.

01:29:44

I think he meant this primarily for Kelly. And while Kelly's thinking,

01:29:49

I'm going to give our email address it's ChrisOrenson at gmail .com ChrisOrenson at gmail .com

01:29:54

and please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:30:04

Any thoughts Kelly on specifically reaching single moms with the need or the benefit of Christian apologetics?

01:30:13

I grew up if he did hear the last interview,

01:30:19

I grew up in a single parent home and for my mom we grew up in a charismatic church and not really understanding a lot and her not really understanding a lot and of course she went through a lot when my dad left and she was having to work all the time and so I think the first key is that they are in a sound biblical church because there's so much that can be gained from that obviously not only the fellowship with fellow believers but what's coming off of the pulpit and the kids being able to hear that and if a pastor is really doing what he's called to do, there is apologetics threaded out through all of his sermons in some way and children are hearing that every week and then of course if the children's ministers or the youth pastor or whoever is in charge of them is also being an influence in that way.

01:31:20

I think in a situation with a single parent it really does, it is about a village, taking a village to raise kids because that's needed especially if the mom's working and as far as getting her to be in a position to where she's desiring to learn that to me again

01:31:43

I think it's really so much of that is about the church and about being involved in that church and wanting that discipleship to where she can turn around and disciple her children to me that's the first key.

01:31:57

What do you think Pete? Yes, the first key is having a good solid community

01:32:05

Christian community to plug into and for her to be surrounded by church members and have for your kids to have a relationship with their pastor is pretty important.

01:32:20

I would, to take the pressure off the moms because they're doing so much, single moms are doing, just overwhelmed it's just a season of survival for them that I think that of course the really quick thinkers of today the guys that are they prep for their interviews they prep for their debates they've got something in their wheelhouse that they've become experts in if you take them out of that they're normal and human just like us they become

01:32:53

Clark Kent but you know if you catch me in my wheelhouse I might be overwhelming if you catch somebody else in their wheelhouse they're overwhelming and a lot of times we can find somebody in their wheelhouse and go be very intimidating and go

01:33:06

I could never do that and I think that in this time we kind of have these kind of little

01:33:13

Christian celebrities based on how well they can debate and it's good I think we need that, we need them out there and there's a place for it but I think that we're kind of lifting them higher than anyone else anybody that's made a name for themselves as a great debater we do admire and we kind of put a little kind of put them above even ourselves and we get to a point like a single mom that would believe that she can't teach her kids apologetics

01:33:41

I'm going to tell you what, the blind man that was born blind that Jesus that Jesus healed his sight and also was saved was probably the greatest one of the greatest apologists that you will ever hear about other than Christ himself or Paul and he was healed and didn't know a whole lot but what he knew in scripture he stumped the world and single moms just need to know their bible preach to their children every day and even if you're not the greatest debater, you don't have kind of an intellectual or critical mind to be able to create these moments like maybe

01:34:30

I do with my children, every kid will grow up and go and remember how faithful their mama was to the

01:34:38

Lord and that is the greatest defense to the secular worldview.

01:34:45

And I want to chime in on that. Can you all hear me okay? I had to change my...

01:34:50

You actually sound crystal clear. Okay, good, good. So I want to chime in on that because I, when it comes to my mother

01:34:59

I will say that that is what I remember from her, even though the theology may not have been on point, she loved the

01:35:06

Lord, she knew that he died on the cross and resurrected in obedience to the

01:35:12

Lord for her you know, for her sin and her love for me and her wanting to make sure that I was consistently in church and that that was there, that is what drew me, that's what the

01:35:25

Lord used and I'll agree with what Pete was saying too that, you know, somebody like me

01:35:31

I'm different in the sense that I am like I said earlier, I'm not a debater, I'm as far as a critical thinker,

01:35:39

I know I'm a thinker but I didn't grow up in a home where that was developed in me

01:35:46

I spent a lot of time alone because my mom worked so much so I was very undeveloped in my communication and it's been later in my life that the

01:35:55

Lord has really, you know, helped me with that and so with my children I feel like my role has been more of their

01:36:05

Christ -like character really working on their character, really working on their understanding of their sin and what it means and how it hurts the

01:36:14

Lord and how it you know, how it affects us and how that our salvation is not by our works, you know, that's kind of my area with them is just really, because I didn't understand my sin growing up,

01:36:26

I really didn't I knew that I screwed up, I knew that I did stuff that made me upset with myself but for some reason

01:36:32

I did not relate that to sin and that being my nature and so I really want to help them understand that so that when they leave the house they truly get that their salvation is only by grace through faith and that that is even a gift, you know, to them and if I can do that for them and prepare them in that way and he's preparing them, you know, with the apologetics and stuff

01:36:59

I just feel like then, okay, I've done my job as a mom and like he said,

01:37:05

I really do believe that they'll remember those things with me and I want the single moms out there to remember that as well, that they may not feel like, you know, that they've got it all together and they have the understanding that a lot of these other even like women authors and speakers you don't have to, just help your kids have

01:37:25

Christ -like character and help them to understand what true salvation is and the

01:37:30

Lord will do you know, take it from there for sure. Amen. And to slow down the massive amounts of hate mail you may be getting after quoting

01:37:40

Hillary Clinton on It Takes a Village, I'm assuming that you meant that it takes a village in regard to Brothers and Sisters in Christ being involved with your family's lives, not the federal government or anything like that.

01:37:53

Oh no, no. I wasn't even thinking that. Yeah, she's the one that stole that quote, she didn't originate that thought, so don't associate her with us.

01:38:05

You gotta dig a little deeper. For sure. No, definitely just, you know, being a part of a church, you know, and I know in some places it's really hard to find a good sound church, you know, but keep digging and keep looking and even if you have to drive, and I know if you're tired but even if you have to drive 30 -45 minutes an hour to get there, it is so worth it to be able to be around people with like -minded you know, hearts and minds and just being able to do life together and have the advice and the wisdom of other people that can give you different perspective and again, yeah, help you raise your children.

01:38:50

You know, I think that's even good even for couples, not just single parents. Amen. Well, we have to go to our final break right now and if you intend to send in a question, do so quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:39:01

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and as always, give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:48:24

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:48:30

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

01:48:35

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

01:48:43

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:48:51

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:49:01

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:49:08

.nyc. Have a great day. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:49:23

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:49:32

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, NY by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:49:40

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

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We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:50:01

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:50:09

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:50:17

That's liyfc .org. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

01:50:29

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:50:36

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:50:42

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:50:49

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:50:57

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

01:51:03

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:51:16

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:51:22

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.

01:51:29

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled

01:51:35

Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org. That's providencebaptistchurchma .org.

01:51:43

Or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:52:05

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually. Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

01:52:20

If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to firstloveradio .org.

01:52:28

They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.

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W .R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Delcor, and more.

01:52:47

Firstloveradio .org also livestreams my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program daily.

01:52:52

Please stick around on firstloveradio .org after Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace.

01:53:03

Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back, this is

01:53:17

Chris Arnzen and we just have a few minutes left with our guests Pete and Kelly Orta on Apologetics in Your Own Home and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

01:53:27

We have a listener, C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who wants to know, he asks

01:53:34

I know that there are Calvinists who are more concerned about converting Christians to Calvinism than they are reaching the lost, but at the same time

01:53:43

I think that far too many people who profess to be Calvinistic or Reformed are embarrassed or ashamed or think that these things that we uniquely believe as a people should be kept private or should not be focused on as much in regard to public evangelism and I do not agree with that at all.

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I believe that even Jesus Christ spoke about things that reflect upon God's sovereignty over all even salvation, even though he knew it would turn people away and that disciples of his left him and never followed him again.

01:54:18

What is your response? Well, Calvinism back in Jesus' time was called

01:54:24

Christianity The Word of God The Word of God and what struck so much anger in the heart of people was him defining doctrine and that there is what created all of the persecution that we read about that he endured and I would as far as people converting being more attentive to converting people to the doctrines of grace versus preaching the gospel

01:55:05

I don't know the difference you preach the gospel and the doctrines of grace are the foundation of the gospel you're preaching you convert,

01:55:18

I mean not you but a person that's claiming to be a Christian could actually be converted by the distinctions and me being an example you just grow up in an environment where well if you believe that Jesus Christ was a true figure in world history and you believe in that then you're saved you'll miss people like me by not getting into a lot of the particulars not talking about what true biblical salvation looks like, what discipleship looks like to be a follower of Jesus I think that when we look at other people and we see that they just seem very zealous about Calvinism what you've got to understand is a lot of like my kids that grew up in a

01:56:12

Calvinistic home they're not out on a out like I am in conversation as much you know

01:56:24

I met a lot of people that grew up Presbyterians that grew up in a Reformed, they're just a lot more relaxed they're like first generation or whatever,

01:56:33

I mean sorry second and third generation Reformed believers but it is people that have been converted like I have or my wife or other people that I see are out there, it really looks like we are just getting behind Calvinism instead of Christianity and it's not that, it's the fact that we have been sold a lie, it has been watered down we were heading to hell because of false beliefs of who

01:57:02

Jesus is and you need doctrines to clear all this up so we can see who

01:57:09

Christ is so when you see people on a rampage out there going Calvinism, Calvinism, Calvinism it might look like that through that lens but through the other lens from my point of view

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I want to tell people the real gospel because I believed in this false thing for so long. Amen.

01:57:26

Yeah and a lot of it I think has to do with providence, who you happen to be in the company of at a particular time whether it's a

01:57:34

Christian who needs to be corrected theologically or a lost person who needs to be saved and of course if all you're doing is trying to convince

01:57:42

Christians of a theological difference then you're unbalanced but both are important but anyway, we are out of time unfortunately and I know already

01:57:55

I want to have you two back but do you have any contact information or any way you'd like to conclude this program today?

01:58:05

Well, I would say, you know my website PeteOrchard .com and you know if anybody wants to contact my wife as well she's on I think

01:58:16

Facebook and Instagram and stuff like that her name is K -E -L -L -I

01:58:21

Kelly Orta. Social media, we kind of stay plugged in here and there. We're not on it all day but we do check in so that's a way and I would really stress that the best thing you can do for your child is preach the gospel to them daily find some, just one little small thing that gives them a clearer view of who

01:58:44

Jesus is it might be in a correction of something that they've done it might be planting a thought out there that you know they're going to come across someday but just preach

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Christ to your children every day that's so simple to do Amen.

01:59:03

Well, I want to thank you both Pete and Kelly Orta for being on the program and please remain on the line so I can give you a proper goodbye off the air and I want to thank everybody who listened today all of you who took the time to write in Mary in Cork, Ireland and Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina and CJ in Lindenhurst and others who may have written in.

01:59:26

I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater