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Well this morning. I'm going to be talking to dr. Danny Aiken, and it's a pleasure today to have you dr Aiken here in the study for our first interview on Bethlehem Bible Church's online. Thank you for taking the time for the interview.
Well I'm honored to do it. It was a great conference this morning speaking about marriage and the family. And we'll get those things up online very soon. Well. I had a great time with your people. Just a quick story on how I met dr. Aiken.
I was at Southern Seminary for a demon cohort. And he walked in. I believe it's the first day we were talking about pastoral integrity. I don't know if you remember the the actual setting but the topic of pastoral integrity integrity we had to.
Shut off all the tape recorders close the doors, and then you talked to us about being men of God. Do you remember that. Yes, and it's been a passion of mine because over the recent history of Evangelicalism we've seen a real deterioration in this area.
Too many of our men are developing a mindset or a spirit of entitlement and They're compromising in little areas that eventually leads to compromise in big areas. And the church is so damaged when someone in a leadership position Falls due to moral failure, and so I remind my myself Mike that that's something again and again.
We need to be bringing ourselves back to and keeping before our minds eye because we too are vulnerable if we're not careful. Well, it's difficult to be a man of integrity In the pulpit and then somehow just live a lifestyle.
That's wild outside the pulpit in other words. So I can do it forever you might fake it for a while. But you can't. God won't allow it. God eventually will bring judgment, and he'll also expose you and rightly so that's right.
I think about fidelity to the word and exposition. Yes. And just dealing with the text and trying to find out what does God intend for us to know so I can proclaim it to The people but the whole time living a life, that's Hypocritical.
It's difficult dr. Aiken. I love you because you're an expositor. Well I love expert expository preaching. I don't think there's any other way that's right and when I first walked in I didn't know what to think of.
I was a master seminary Graduate and didn't know this whole Southern seminary deal back in Louisville when we met of course now. You're the president of Southeastern, but meeting you at Southern I was just wondering and leery and I didn't know who Lottie moon was.
I had no idea of the Southern Baptist culture or heritage and You came in the first day. And we're talking about men that you respected and what expository preaching was and dr. John MacArthur. And as I listened to you, and then you shared with us your notes I began to think he believes in expository preaching just like I do just like we do and from there off I thought I love dr. Danny Aiken because he wants to give God's intention Of the text and he wants to proclaim that to the people.
Is that how you'd explain? Expository preaching or describe it at least that's a component of it. Well I would in the simplest term would say expository preaching is text driven preaching. Where you are indeed honoring the authorial intent of the text and I remind my students today Mike that ultimately The author of the text is the Holy Spirit and therefore if you don't honor the intent of the text You're basically dissing the Holy Spirit, and you're in essence saying you know This could have been put together better than the way you did it.
This could have been expounded better than the way that you have given it, and I'm just not going to do that. I find in one sense It's arrogant to do that and another sense would be utterly foolish to do that and so because the author of Scripture is the Spirit.
Both in terms of substance and structure. I want to honor what he is deposited. You know we both know there are a lot of men out there today that would call themselves Expositors, but unless you're using a really strange definition.
They're not expositors. They're not explaining the text in its context honoring the grammar honoring the syntax honoring again the Thoroughly intended meaning given by the Spirit of God through a human author and so I'm still as adamantly committed to that as ever I believe it's the only way that we will grow long-term Healthy viable New Testament churches.
Amen, I couldn't have said it better. Dr.. Aiken I have to ask you. What was it like at Southern Seminary when everything was happening? I have that video battle for the minds by Stephen Lipscomb. I believe is his name the PBS Screwtape letters kind of video.
I remember dr. York showed it to us in the very beginning of the video. You see Southern Seminary's campus from a helicopter and REM the pop band Singing losing my religion. What was it like in those days.
Well actually in my life I was at two different institutions on the turn of the school from liberal to conservative. I was at Southeastern from 92 to 96 then came to Southern in 96 and at both instances a large majority of the more liberal professors were on their way out.
So I could see the turn coming, but it was very volatile is very tense. There was a lot of confusion on the campus. You had to be careful in terms of your back, but at the same time it motivated us to walk as Circumspectly and above reproach as we possibly could we should be doing that anyway.
But it was even a greater motivation to do so, but it was interesting some of the Professors that I I loved them. I tried to be their friend to the best of my ability. But when you're sitting down and talking to men that do not believe in absolute truth.
That questioned the veracity of the virgin birth put a question mark by the resurrection. You are concerned about their conversion their their regeneration. And then you're concerned about what kind of influence and impact they have on students who are very vulnerable.
Very malleable very impressionable, and so it was an interesting time. I can still remember when the turn took place at both institutions and that turn was when we had a majority of Conservative faculty so that you knew any issue the president brought to the table Would be affirmed because a majority of the professors now that were on the faculty affirmed the Baptist faith and message the abstract of principles they were committed to the full truthfulness of Scripture and at that point you saw even a more Rapid exodus of the remaining professors who simply did not want to be a part of that.
It's interesting at neither institution. Did we have to fire anyone? We were on the verge of doing that but without any firings these persons just moved on and Went to either retirement our institutions where their particular approach to theology and ministry Was more suited to their liberal theology.
Well, it's just amazing to me that the Lord would Take places that were on the decline or the downgrade as virgin would call it and then resurrect them to proclaim the gospel. It's simply it's an act of his sovereign grace.
We could have never planned it or orchestrated it. It has to be the the gracious hand of God. I pulled up on the internet an article once there was a Camelot women doctrinal graduates of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 1982 to 92 and some of the quotes, you know, they no masculine pronouns for God profanity profanity lesbian lifestyle.
Acknowledgement that a number of them were practicing lesbians while they were students at the seminary as well as an Acknowledgement that some of the professors that used to be there hit on some of them and you're thinking my goodness now I want to be fair.
There were men there that did not have our concerted theology, but they were morally upright men. They were not pedophiles. They were not adulterers. I Suspect that that was the exception rather than the rule.
But again such a quagmire of Theological and moral Sadness Error is not it grieves one to think that there was a seminary like that that had been founded By a group of men that were absolutely committed to reformational theology committed to world evangelism Committed to faithful gospel proclamation.
How did it happen? Well, it's happened as you and I know across America at virtually every divinity school every seminary and that southern Southeastern and several other Southern Baptist seminaries turned around is actually unprecedented in our history.
And again, if you say how did it happen? Well God raised up some wonderful men to facilitate it, but it was again We weren't that smart we're not that creative. If God had not orchestrated it it would not have occurred.
Amen. Well, tell me a little bit about Southeastern. Certainly. It was not in the shape That Southern was in when you first got there and then now going to be the president of Southeastern following Paige Patterson.
What kind of personal emphasis are you putting on the seminary or how are you influencing it? It must follow you to some degree. And so tell me a little bit about the school I don't know much and then kind of how are you putting your your Exposure increasing mark on it if you will.
Well Southeastern is one of the six Southern Baptist seminaries and it has experienced remarkable growth along the same lines as Southern. When I went there in 1992 there were about 580 students today.
There are more than 2 ,600 and so it's experienced a tremendous amount of growth in terms of its Orientation it is probably more like Southern than any of our other seminaries. So there there is a difference.
Southern is very much a part of what is known as the Charleston tradition. Southeastern is very much a part of what is known as the Sandy Creek tradition. Both of them were thoroughly rooted in a Reformed Reformational Theology, but Charleston tended to be a bit more high church with a Presbyterian influence.
Sandy Creek tended to be more Revivalistic and that's carried over so that the spirit of the campus is a bit more revivalistic a bit more Heart oriented yet at the same time. The two schools are very strong both of them in terms of their theology in terms of their missions and evangelism.
I would remind folks Southern seminary has the Billy Graham School of Missions evangelism church growth. It would be one of the 15 largest seminaries in America standing on its own. And so there is a sense in which there's a difference in emphasis.
But not a difference in terms of real content Mission and passion and so I was equally at home. At both. I am equally at home at both. I love my eight years at Southern. I've loved my time at Southeastern.
I guess maybe if I were giving a commercial I would say I have two sons that are students at Southern. I have two sons that are students at Southeastern. I'm happy for all four. I don't need to say anything more than that, but we do have though a strong emphasis on expository preaching.
We also Mike are very missions oriented. We have a major major component of our school that is committed to getting the gospel to the nations. So I often say this Southern does missions well, but they do theology really well.
We do Theology well, but we do missions really well. And so it's simply a difference of emphasis not a difference in like well. This school is completely oriented in this way. The other school is completely oriented in a different way.
No Dr. Mullen, I many times talk about the fact that of the six seminaries. The two of us are the most akin as sister institutions and we have a great relationship with the faculty and friends at Southern.
To this day and I thought last week I had Russell Moore in Chapel. We've had Al down. He's had me up. So there's a regular interchange that still continues between the two institutions. Great. Well, I have Russell Moore signature on my diploma and I like a great guy.
But I would have probably rather had yours as well. You know you personally. Tell me about your relationship with Al Dr. Mueller. How did you meet him and and how did that relationship forge itself during the difficult times?
Well, he's one of my very best friends and actually many people thought he was bringing one of his best friends to be his Dean. That's not true. He and I had only had maybe two conversations in our entire life so that when he called page Patterson.
To ask for permission to talk with me. I was surprised and in fact initially said to dr. Patterson Well, that's easy. Tell him no, I'm happy here. I don't have any interest in going anywhere else. Dr. Patterson who really does have a kingdom perspective said well, I need to say a couple of things one I don't want you to leave southeastern.
But to Al is going through a tough time. That is the mother seminary. It needs to be righted and if it's in God's plan for you to go there I'm not going to get in the way of that and so I did go up and meet with him to my surprise and his our hearts were instantly instantly knitted and I knew within a few days.
This was what God was going to direct. So I went there. Served there for eight years. Eight wonderful years I do consider he and Charlotte and I my wife would consider he and Mary To be two of our very best friends in all the world.
We love each other. We miss each other enormously every time we're together. We just about weep because we're reminded of the sweet eight years we had and that we don't have that same proximity any longer.
I would say Mike. I think he's one of the greatest gifts to evangelicalism. He is the smartest person I've ever met now. There may be someone smarter than him. I just don't know them. He has an incredible mind.
He has an incredible energy. He has an ability to analyze and process process things. He's most widely read person. I've ever met excluding the area of sports where he doesn't have an athletic bone in his body but he is just an incredible gift to the church and Tremendously shaped my life in fact come back real quickly to a question you asked earlier people have often said well, it's southeastern now.
What are you trying to do? And I've said well, I'm trying to maintain the best that was there with Paige Patterson. Which there was a lot and I'm trying to bring the best from Southern Seminary of which there's a lot so if you were to say so you're trying to kind of merge a page Patterson al moeller kind of Of a mindset or merge that into one stream.
Yeah, that's exactly what I've tried to do and So far, I think the Lord has been very gracious to bless that. Well great. I remember the day that you took us to not only your house downstairs I believe when you lived in Louisville and you were working on your first John commentary and you had about 41st John commentaries out.
Yes, and so I was amazed to just see your library and walk around and then the next day you took us to dr Moeller's presidential home and then downstairs to the library and as much as I liked your library.
There's not a library on the planet like al moeller's library and it you have to see it. To appreciate it even then you can't hardly get your arms around it. It's so incredible. Well, you said to us just Say to dr. Moeller this particular book here in the title.
What do you think about that book? And he would say Well on page 483 Grudem said such-and-such. It's amazing. It really is if he says he has read it. He has read it and he can tell you what's in it.
Wow. Let's talk just a little bit about the Southern Baptist Convention two things. Let's do the first one the founders movement and Calvinism and then get on to this charismatic issue that's happening at Southwestern.
When I read the abstract principles when I think of some of the men Brought us and others. It seemed like they were I Hate to throw out the word reformed all the time or Calvinistic, but they were Calvinistic men they were five-point Calvinist for the most part weren't they?
Yes brought us was probably a four-pointer, but but Boyce Manly and Williams the other three of the four founding professors at Southern were all clearly five-point Calvinist thoroughly reformed in their theology in fact Boyce had gone to Princeton and Studied there with the Princetonian theologians of that day the abstract clearly Clearly articulates at least three of the five points of Calvinism.
Some would even argue that a fourth point that being effectual calling if not clearly there is certainly strongly implied. And I would agree with that fact Al and I they both talked about the fact that It would be impossible for someone to sign the abstract that could not with enthusiasm affirm at least three depravity Unconditional election and perseverance with the issue of petrol calling being right there added it doesn't address the extent of the atonement and so that's why someone like myself who is a Amaraldian a four-pointer could easily and delightfully Assign the abstract and work wonderfully well with someone like Al Muller who was a five-pointer.
You know, it's interesting Mike and all the years. I was there. We never once asked a prospective faculty member Are you a five-point Calvinist, but we did ask them Do you affirm without any hesitation or reservation the abstract of principles and the baddest faith the message?
It's a little bit looser Than the abstract hence some of our sister seminaries only to affirm the abstract Southeastern and southern it would be the case that the others could be a little bit more loose.
Although even the baddest faith and message is grounded in the New Hampshire Confession and it is a modified Calvinism or a modified reform document. So sometimes when people talk about Southern Baptist being all over the map.
That wasn't really true in our beginnings. Was everyone a five-point Calvinist? No, but was everyone for the most part reformed? Yes. It's certainly God is sovereign in salvation. Absolutely. Absolutely, and all the soul was affirmed without any hesitation.
You know, there was no General Baptist died out they became Unitarians now it revived later in a different sort of a form but really you don't find this type of stream in Southern Baptist life until after World War one with the rise of liberalism.
With the fact that unfortunately we bought into the idea that real scholars came from Europe. We sent a bunch of men over to Europe. They came back bringing the historical critical method as well as imbibing what would eventually after World War two be new orthodoxy and Then later comes along the strand of The early stages of Postmodernism and anyone that thinks it only reared its ugly head in the 90s or today is is badly mistaken the roots.
Francis Schaeffer saw it coming back in the 60s. Well, it's man-centered. It starts with a man-centered gospel and theology as opposed to a God center. And by the way, Emil Bruner said that the right starting point for doing theology was man.
Well, if you start with man, you're gonna end up differently than you will if you start with God and so southern batters right now are trying to kind of find their way in all of this and We're having some some healthy conversations, but we're also having some rather unhealthy rhetoric that's being bantered about.
I'm doing my best along with people like dr. Moeller to bring some reason some sanity. Some grace and some good hard theological thinking to the issue and I'm I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful but you know, we have been so steeped in a kind of watered-down theology in our churches for a long time.
Southern Baptist churches are struggling in this area right now and to be fair. Some men don't understand what's going on some men understand that they're going into churches with the wrong spirit and They feel like if they go into a church that is semi Pelagian that they are obligated to fix it in three months.
Well pastorally speaking you and I both know that would be a very foolish thing to do. They didn't get there in three months. You're not going to get them where they need to be in three months either therefore you've got to be committed to the long haul and As John MacArthur said to me on a number of occasions.
You've got to have people going to those situations who love the people in that church. And they love them enough to be patient with them. And that's what you have to do. Well goes, right? Along with expository preaching absolutely the next text in the next text as a funny story of Somebody left the church some time ago for good reasons and I ran into them and they said Well, I just want you to know Mike.
I never believed in election. You preached election, but I never believed it and I said That's okay. I love you and we're brothers and sisters in Christ and I miss you and I said I just have one question.
When Paul said in Ephesians chapter 1 that God chose us in Christ Before the foundation of the world that we might be holy and blameless. What would Paul mean when he said that and then she just smiled?
So well, I've had some friends that have said I don't believe in predestination or election to which I quickly respond Do you realize what that what you're saying is you don't believe the Bible those things are in there now.
We have to then discern what they mean, but please don't make such a shallow Superficial nonsensical Inappropriate statement that you don't believe those things because there I believe them now I've got to then work through what they mean.
But goodness do not say you don't believe things that are clearly taught and affirmed by the very words themselves in Scripture. That's right. Well, I see two different sides one side is you have people who just become reformed in their thinking four point five point and then they want to Immaturely Ram it down everybody's throat that becomes their new gospel.
That's right motive for evangelism and they don't believe actually what they they don't act like what they believe. No is to say if God has sovereignly revealed this truth to their minds through the spirits illumination.
Then it must be through the same method to these other people man-centered. Absolutely. And then on the flip side I see people who would say a five-point Calvinist is a hyper Calvinist. They wouldn't say well, he doesn't pray.
He doesn't evangelize and he sees no love of God for the non-elect and just going back and forth. But one of the blessings for us who are Baptist is the wonderful example of Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon was the greatest preacher probably of the 19th century.
He Filled the Metropolitan Tabernacle week after week. His sermons were sent out the next day all over the world. He was a five-point Calvinist who was a fervent fervent personal evangelist. And so there's your model and you can hold the two both God's sovereignty and human responsibility in a healthy tension.
That ultimately is resolved in the mysterious ways in mind of God. I know my responsibility is to preach a faithful gospel. Knowing that he has promised to bless the preaching of his word and that I therefore and I don't know the elect.
So my responsibility is not to call out or to pick out or to identify the elect. That's God's business. My responsibility is to be faithful to share the gospel and see that it's extended to the end of the earth.
Knowing that and that a sovereign God will bless those efforts. Well, that's why we're having you here at the church. Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be here to all right. Just as we wrap up just a couple more things I have in front of me the crosswalk.
Published article seminary president defends ban on charismatic practices agape press and it's the whole McKissick Cornerstone Baptist issue newly appointed trustee at the seminary at Southwestern, yes, I Remember a professor back at masters.
Dr. Thomas who happens to be a four-pointer as well on the man who I really respect. I did not know that. Yes, I do these commentary to buy him on Revelation is phenomenal superb. Yes. And so dr. Thomas said that if you let charismatic influences In at the leadership of a local church pretty much turn off the lights.
That is to say allow charismatics to come to the church. Certainly not everyone has to arrive at the church theologically set. But when you open up the subjective door at leadership level God speaks somehow outside of his objective written black and white word.
That it will creep creep in to the very depths of the church and and ultimately unravel it. I wonder how Similar that the that philosophy is at Southwestern. And in fact, is that why page said something interesting to me?
He said we do believe in absolute religious liberty. But we also believe that if you're going to be a New York Yankee, you shouldn't wear a New York Mets uniform, right? And he said certainly I'm not a cares Phobic but we just believe God reveals himself in his word.
It is closed canon. It is sufficient and it is authoritative thoughts. Well, dr. Patterson was my father in ministry and when it comes to the charismatic issues He's been badly misrepresented in some ways on this.
He liked me is a what we What we would call open but cautious. In other words, he's not a cessationist when he's been accused of a cessationist view. That's not true. He simply believes that any manifestation or practice of the gifts has to follow the clear Teachings of Scripture.
So if you take tongues, for example, it has to follow the teachings of 1st Corinthians 14 to no more than three. Always with an interpreter one at a time women don't do it and he believes as I do That it will be a known language that one is previously not studied.
He also believes that 1st Corinthians 14 is not talking at just two different verses about prayer tongues. But actually Paul is being sarcastic and is saying when it says well I'll pray with the Spirit then the next verse says no.
I pray with the Spirit in the mind. I Find nothing in the Bible that would indicate there's ever time for us to put our mind in neutral or shut it down. We're to love God with our mind if I'm praying in a tongue that I don't understand.
Then I'm not praying to God with my mind that has been ruled out furthermore the gifts clearly there's a constant theme through all of 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 that the purpose of gifts is to edify and build up the body.
A Private prayer tongue cannot accomplish that now they will say well, it's for self edification. That is not the purpose of gifts. Gifts are not for the purpose of self edification. They are for the purpose of building up the body furthermore.
If prayer tongues happens to be and I don't believe that it is but happens to be legitimate. Then there's the one gift that isn't for the benefit of the body and I have a hard time believing that God said all these gifts Are for the body.
Oh, I'm sorry. One gift is just for you. That is so wrong headed in terms of the clear teachings of Scripture. So I could not agree with dr. Thomas more. At my school. Would I put someone in a leadership position that is an advocate of this?
No, I wouldn't. Now can we have students that are there? Yes, certainly. Could I potentially have a faculty member that thinks this is something they have but it's not an agenda item. They don't push it.
They don't press it. They don't advocate it. They don't evangelize it. I probably could but the reason would be I would never ask them and I never know about it. My good friend out molar when interviewed by the New York Times was asked how do you feel about this private prayer language?
He said I don't know you're talking about and they said you haven't heard about this controversy. He said I've heard about the controversy, but if it's private, why would I know anything about it? Private means private.
Nobody knows about it in the New York Times. Author said, you know, that is a good point. He said I think it's a decisive point and it is for me, too. Excellent. I was looking at your resume. Dr. Aiken and it talked about your PhD Dissertation and I had to reread it because I I thought I need to know more about that an article ervo.
Yes, his view of soteriology. What is his view of soteriology? Evangelical. My major professor was a Roman Catholic Cistercian priest. I got an interest in the University, Texas. Yes at Arlington got interested and found out that he is quoted in Calvin Second only to Augustine.
He is quoted in Luther. He is quoted in John Gill. He is quoted in John Owen. He is quoted in Charles Spurgeon. So I then went back and he's in evangelical in the same ilk that you and I know but was he a theologian preacher who was committed to grace.
Committed to that salvation was by grace through faith alone who believed in a substitutionary atonement though. He also unfortunately still bought a little bit into the ransom to Satan theory that was dying in at that time.
But was he a theologian of grace who did not have a view of the sacraments that you find in Roman Catholicism today. Yes, he was not there. And so even my major Catholic professor said I would concur.
That father Bernard was most certainly an evangelical. Very much akin to the theology that you espouse. Well, I find that interesting and helpful because Oh sacred head and I wounded that song was attributed to Jesus the very thought of the Jesus our joy of loving hearts.
Luther called him the best monk that ever lived whom I admire beyond all the rest put together. So yeah, at least sing those telling you I am telling a disclaimer and just don't buy into his hermeneutic because he wrote almost 90 sermons on the Song of Solomon and only got through chapter 2.
Wow. And he certainly saw it as a love relationship. They're beautiful. They're magnificent they tell you a lot about his theology, but he saw them as a allegory of Christ and the believer and Develops it at some length.
I wish he hadn't died of an interest in it. So what he did with all eight chapters, but though I might not commit his hermeneutic for the most part. It's theology one could warmly embrace. Excellent. Well speaking of the Song of Solomon.
I have to ask you although our time is up your book God on sex. What prompted you to write that there's just not that much written these days or well I had been studying and teaching off and on the Song of Solomon for almost 15 years.
Went through it myself three different times in three different churches and just decided, you know I do a lot of stuff on marriage and family. Well, this is kind of God's manual and I understand there are different ways it can be approached in terms of interpretation.
But I still think at the heart of it. God is telling us here is my design for Marriage and the way a man and a woman ought to relate and my tiles a bit misleading because when I say God on sex You say well Song of Solomon is all about sex.
No, it's not Sex is there. But you find out from the Song of Solomon that what you do outside the bedroom is Crucial to what takes place inside the bedroom and I just became fascinated with the arguments that are there in the wisdom for building healthy marriages is just there and so I went through it several times got motivated then to put a book together and It was a lot of fun to both preach through it and to write the book good.
Are you writing any books now? Well, interestingly come April. I will be the editor of a 1 ,200 page theology. Entitled a theology for the church. The difference is that it has multiple contributors. But it all fought sort of like what happened in Carson new and Morris's New Testament intro, right?
Every chapter follows the same pattern. What does the Bible say? What is the church always believed? How does it fit together? What is its contemporary relevance? Contributors include Al Mohler Russ Moore Mark Dever myself Paige Patterson Timothy George Ken Keith Lee Greg Thornberry Peter Shim and David Nelson really wonderful Baptist thinkers and I'm real pleased with it and In the editing process right now and so that will come out some title of theology for the church and We do believe that theology is not for the Academy primarily it is for the church.
It'll be written that way and it'll be taught in that context and hopefully God might use this to accomplish that great. Well, thank you. Dr Rankin for coming today for setting in on this interview. We have to part now and go take our wives over to Elizabeth Louise me Alcott's house a little women's house and that'll be good next time.
Maybe we'll take you up to the George Whitfield sites. Well today Relics will honor the heart of our wives as we ought to then next time. Maybe they'll be time for us. That's right. Thanks again. Thanks.