September 4, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White. And good afternoon.

Announcements About the Reformed Baptist Theological Review and Straightgate

Welcome to the dividing line. We are live this afternoon at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is our phone number and Only a couple things other than your phone calls today. Just thought I would give you a URL you might want to take a look at that you might find interesting a new publication and for those of you who listen to this particular program, you might find it interesting because I will be Contributing to this particular journal.

It is called the Reformed Baptist Theological Review www .rbtr. Just remember Reformed Baptist Theological Review www .rbtr .org. I'm looking at it right now if you want to pop on over there and It looks like it's going to be a very useful interesting adventure, obviously.

There is a it's going to be similar to the two jets and things like that Westminster Theological Review the journals. It's a scholarly journal. And but it'll have a specifically Reformed Baptist Orientation you can read the materials there on the website I've actually already begun work on.

In fact the the article be 10 ,000 words long and to give you an idea of how long that is in essence the main Articles the full-size articles in the CRI journal that I write Just finished actually one last night.

It's a viewpoint article. So it's only 1 ,700 words, but if you would look at the Well the last article in the journal on the subject of the Trinity and Islam Was 5 ,500 words, so that would be just under half the size of an article Here in for the Reformed Baptist Theological Review, so it's enough room to actually develop a thought and develop a concept.

I'll be exegeting a passage of Scripture Specifically in regards the issue of the New Covenant and I can let you guess which passage of Scripture that will be not really Doesn't take a whole lot to figure that one out.

Anyway, and so I wanted to let folks know about that. And yeah, I encourage you to subscribe. Obviously when something's just getting off the ground Subscriptions would be helpful. And I think we always get folks coming to channel.

Where can I get good reading material? Where can I get this? We're gonna well, here's here's a place where you can you can do so and If you sign up just let them know that James White sent you over and you will get a free.

Thank you. Actually, you won't get anything else. Yes, also, by the way We do know that straightgate .com is not working. You can get the Stuff shows up. It's it's there. You can you can see the things I just checked on a just earlier today checked on the section on Norm Geisler see if it was still working and You can bring up the you know, everything's listed there it just you can't play anything something's gone wrong with the real audio server portion of the of the website and I'm certain that Stephen Luker is doing everything he can but if I'm recalling correctly in the past when he has attempted to get hold of the folks at the server there, they did not really speak English very well and Given that he normally asked you through typing.

It can be difficult to communicate With folks and say hey, you're you're you broke down and you're not working. No, it looked good. Yeah. No, that's not working. Yes it can be very very frustrating and So anyway, we do know that Straightgate is down and there's nothing whatsoever that we can do about it because it's not our website in the first place and We fully know what Stephen's going through and probably trying to get it working again.

We could tell you some stories we could we could write some stories about the things that we've gone through. Especially in regards to our mp3s and it is sort of funny. Yes the mp3s Obviously are available of the dividing lines on our website, but it is a function of the cheapness.

People well, I can't do that. That's that's $1. That's $2. You're calling cheap. I wasn't talking I was talking about people got well, yeah I know I can download the mp3 but that costs money. Yeah, it costs about as much as an order of fries, you know.

That's you know, you skip the fries and and get the mp3, you know. You know somebody was saying yesterday in channel. I'm really frustrated. It's like Dude, you know, I mean, come on. It's it's a it's a free service.

How much have you paid for it? So anyways, but we appreciate Stephen Luker and all the work that he does and there are a lot of folks in channel That didn't know much about Stephen last night and I was filling them in and they were pretty amazed.

So we'll pray that straightgate .com will be back in operation in the not-too-distant future. So anyways, remember our BTR org reform Baptist theological review. Sign up get a subscription and say I heard about you on the dividing line and they'll go.

Okay, and that's about all you'll get but hey at least if you know If ten people said I heard about you on the dividing line, then they'll go. Hey, that's pretty cool. So Anyways, we can do that 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number for the program today.

Critique of Dave Hunt on Romans 9 and Human Choice

I have a couple of Cuts to play for you today. It's been a few weeks since I last addressed the I in fact I had mentioned I had like 13 cuts that I had gotten out of Off of the Bree and call website and we never finished them.

We would either either I was rambling too long or started preaching or got phone calls or whatever it might be. So I thought I'd cue them up again this evening. Especially since we had stopped right before we got to Romans chapter 9 and it's always interesting to listen to folks attempt to deal with Romans chapter 9 it is always a indication of Whether we're doing exegesis or whether we are instead functioning on the basis of tradition and that's obviously what what takes place here as We go back to listening to and responding to some comments made by Dave Hunt in regards here to Romans.

Let me let me double-check this, you know, I'm sitting here going. Hmm. Click click click click. Yep there that's that's what it says. So let's let's hope we've got the right one here. Let's listen to something on Romans chapter 9.

Here's this week's question.

Dear Dave and Tom, would you give me your understanding of Romans 9 verses 20 through 24? Dave well your were you getting into your body? Let me read it for our listeners. Romans 9 verses 20 to 24. Oh, man, who art thou that replies against God?

Shall the thing form say to him that formed it why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor? What if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power known?

Endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction and that he might make known the riches of his glory. On the vessels of mercy, which he had a for prepared unto glory. Even us whom he hath called not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles.

Well, what's your understanding that Dave? I think you dealt with that in your latest book. What love is this?

Well, first of all, obviously the clay can't complain to the potter and we can't complain to God. God can do anything with us that he wanted to. He could torture us if he wanted to but that's not the character of God.

God is sovereign, but God has also said to all of the clay I want to make each of you into a vessel into honor. Human beings do have something to say about this. We do have the power of choice now. There are those who deny That we have a power of choice.

Luther wrote an entire book about it the bondage of the will. John Calvin also denied That man has the power of choice. Now when you say that then you have to go the next step. And that is what Calvin taught.

What Calvin's say today. God is the cause of.

Everything now, let's just stop it right there and and If someone asks about a passage of Scripture This is not how you respond to it, I mean First of all deny the man has a power of choice baloney. Anyone who has read the bondage the will knows that that Luther never said we have no power of choice I mean the very nature the very name of the book is the bondage of the will the will still exist.

The will still makes choices the issue is Upon what basis can it make those choices. And so and this is this is standard for and I honestly Wouldn't say that this is purposeful on mr. Hunt's part but it is it is the way the system functions to simply define libertarian free will as the only real use of the term choice and Then misrepresent the other position.

I mean, let's you know, there's only a few folks that I've run into who are going to be Careful enough to accurately state. Well what reformed theologians say is yes we exercise choice, but that choice is enslaved the nature of our will and it has to do with the desires that are presented to the will and and you know all that kind of fair kind of stuff and Sadly many of the folks who do that in essence do so as scholars.

But and and folks ask questions about this all the time they ask. When they address these issues, they address them on the basis of the idea. There really isn't any ultimate truth anyways, yeah, you know, I was I was reading a scholarly article Journal article from 11 12 years ago no, I was reading yesterday, but the articles from 11 or 12 years ago and You know it would the information was Obviously had taken a lot of time to collate and to present and it was all wonderful and useful and tracking down the information.

But the thing that bothered me about it so much was in essence the person's whole perspective was, you know We really can't come to any decision about all this. Anyways I was obviously written from a perspective where this person Holds to various liberal perspectives concerning the nature of Old Testament revelation and when it was written and things like that and it was Really interesting to me anyways to note how much that impacted the final understanding of the of the article.

But in essence one of the things was said over and over again is you know, we we just don't know. We we just we don't have any way of knowing and I honestly don't think That you could find any passage of the Old Testament That is That that is I mean it could be as clear as day.

But if you give a scholar enough time they'll find a way to Completely and totally Mess it up. I mean to basically prove, you know, we really don't know what this says. And I think that ends up bothering a lot of especially theological students they read stuff and they go man You know it who knows what what any of this means?

I think I bought a lot of folks and that's obviously not what? What Dave Hunt is doing here, but it just it just reminded me of that that particular Aspect of the article that I was reading yesterday.

So back to this issue of Romans chapter 9 here you have a direct question that has been asked and You know the honest Answer that the few people I run to answer this honestly will basically end up addressing this issue from a scholarly perspective with no passion about it all and Reading that stuff is about as interesting as chewing on aluminum foil.

But those have passion about tend to just misrepresent the other side. It's very rare to find someone who's passionate and who's also accurate and what they're stating concerning the other side so There really wasn't even any any interaction and what we've heard so far.

Instead Dave immediately backs up and he's he's going back to his safe places. You know, I'm remembering The debate with George Bryson on the subject of Salvation and how when pressed on the issues he would Always drop back into in his presentations.

Well, you know if what's being said here is true then in reality maybe Jesus didn't die for your brother or your sister and instead of you know accurately representing the the actual topic of the debate what we're going after the whole idea was You don't want that so it can't be true.

That's not how you've always heard it said so it can't be true. You know, I've I then attempted to respond to that and point out well, you know what a we don't have access to information we've been commanded to preach the gospel to all creatures and we don't we don't distinguish we don't make a determination on the our our Understanding because our understanding is not significant enough to do that and then further Why is it do you like the idea that Jesus may have died for your brother or sister?

But his death isn't enough to actually save them without their help. How is that somehow so much more wonderful? Well because of tradition. Well, that's what we're talking about here too in regards to Traditions, let's back this up just a little bit and take another run at here.

God is sovereign, but God has also said to all of the clay I want to make each of you into a vessel unto honor. Human beings do have something to say about this. We do have the power of choice now.

I'd like to see where that is. Wouldn't you. Where. Where in Romans 9? Does God say. To all human beings. I want I want to make you into a vessel of honor. I'm the Potter and I don't want to make any vessels unto dishonor.

I Want to just make pretty vessels. All of them must be pretty vessels. And I'm sorry, but why does it say that. I mean that it's just so clear. I said Jesus that you just want to. You want to put your hand up you want to pull the microphone away and go now.

Wait a minute. Good shit. Did you have your Bible open somewhere there. I'd like to see you use the King James. I know that the King James is a little bit longer than the modern text. But I don't remember that one in the King James anyplace.

Ah, you just.

God is sovereign, but God has also said to all of the clay I want to make each of you into a vessel unto honor. Human beings do have something to say about this. We do have the power of choice now. There are those who deny That we have a power of choice.

Luther wrote an entire book about it the bondage of the will. John Calvin also denied That man has the power of choice. Now when you say that then you have to go the next step. And that is what Calvin taught what Calvin's say today.

God is the cause of.

Everything. Everyone H Palmer and his book the five points of cow now. Let me stop. It's all right there. God is the cause of Everything. Let's think about that one for just a moment. It's obvious in the way that he's using.

We know where he's going. He's gonna God's the author of evil and God can't hold anyone accountable and and you know, we've all heard all this stuff before. But I don't maybe I'm wrong, but I don't get the feeling Really that Dave is considered the other side of these things.

If God isn't sovereign over all things and he says he is and then turns around says it's not but If God isn't sovereign over all things if he wants another cause if he wants multiple causes if he wants.

And of course we believe in secondary causes. We just believe that they exist under the sovereign rule of God and and the sovereign decree. But get rid of sovereign decree. He wants causes that are Well equal with God.

Does he want uncaused events? What what you know, I don't know. I mean That's been one of the frustrations I had in writing the book was there's there's no attempt to Make any kind of of positive coherent and consistent theological presentation and So you can't go back and say well, you know, here's his theology.

Here's his theology of God. Here's his theology of Providence that there isn't anything like that. It's just well, you know, it's just just the Bible. Well that that's nice that that's what everybody says, but could you be a little more specific?

So it's very difficult to To find out but does he want uncaused? Events does he want events that are solely caused by creatures and if they're solely caused by creatures and God created creatures with that power and ability and God knew what they were to do with it.

How in the world does this help him? How does how does this help? The individual who is attempting to Deny the sovereignty of God in in in creation salvation the sovereign decree. I don't know. I To be able to ask but as Most of you know who've listened this program Mr. Hunt will not debate these issues against me because I'd like to ask him and You can ask in writing all you want and you don't necessarily get a response.

So let's let's keep going with this one here.

That man has the power of choice. Now when you say that then you have to go the next step. And that is what Calvin taught. What Calvin's say today. God is the cause of Everything. Edwin h. Palmer and his book the five points of Calvinism says God's the author of sin.

Everything that happens Happens because God willed it even the mistake of a typist. So now we've turned the human experience into a puppet show. Practically, but worst of all it makes God the author of sin.

Every evil thought crime murder rape Robbery and so forth in history God has foreordained it because man has no will. Man cannot even will to sin. But this is all the God is for or day. I do not believe that's what this is saying.

Well, I'm glad because as anyone who knows the subject knows Dave doesn't know the subject very well. Or he is being dishonest in his misrepresentation thereof. When he says that man has no will that man cannot even will to sin and all the rest of stuff.

You know that none of the sources that he was citing say anything even even close to that. And I've had a lot of people ask how do you know? How do you write a book with someone like that? Well, there's nothing you can do.

I mean especially when in responding to a presentation you have at first two-thirds and then one half as many words you know when someone makes a statement like that and then they make numerous statements like that in in a say a 2 ,000 word presentation and you have a thousand words to respond to it.

You you just have to pick which errors you're going to deal with and that means you leave all sorts of errors on unrebutted. Because there's nothing you can do about you. Just hope that through the clarity of your presentation and through dealing with the the basic foundational issues.

In your other presentations that the reader Can you know become involved the reader can can go? Hey, wait a minute, Dave and now they that's not what they say and This is what really they're saying and why don't you listen to what they're saying and so on so forth.

So That's the best you can do you can you can just you know, try to correct those misapprehensions. As best that you you possibly can. So there you have the the response to Hebrews chapter 9. It may leave you.

Well, actually that's not all I need to. I need to finish up the rest of Hebrews chapter 9 here. But there wasn't much in the way of interaction. There was there. No, there there was not so let's look at the next one here.

Click click click click and here we go.

He loves mankind. He has the best in mind for us. It is our stubborn rebellion against God the cause of these things. Now, what about enduring? With much long-suffering verse 22 the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Yeah vessels of wrath. Fitted to destruction. How do we understand that? Well Tom predestination and the election are always connected with foreknowledge. Romans 8 whom he foreknew he predestined not to salvation but to be conformed to the image of his son.

Let's stop it right there obviously, you know Dave's entire position does stand upon his very tired very shallow Presentation of foreknowledge we have discussed it before we have demonstrated that he does not Deal with the lexical information.

He doesn't understand the differences between nouns and verbs in the Greek language. He knows that that argumentation is there but some of you may recall I've got how long ago it was now we did we played the presentation he made at a large Calvary Chapel out in California and Demonstrate at that point that he the best that he can do in response to foreknowledge and The lexical information is to just simply sort of mock it and say well.

You know, they'll come up with with their arguments and they'll come up with their You know their reasonings here, but you know, it's just not biblical. He simply cannot handle this information, but he insists upon continuing to make statements based upon already refuted Assertions that he makes and that's very distressing.

It's very troubling I would hope that there are people who Are serious about these issues who have contacted him and attempted to believe me all of us before the book came out. We're trying to get him to to realize these particular things, but it's you know, we failed in being able to do so.

Maybe other people are doing it now I don't know but be that as it may you have this whole foreknowledge argument that has been refuted over and over and over again. But here's a situation where someone simply refuses to accept correction and just keeps presenting the same thing.

Over and over and over again.

Romans 8 whom he foreknew he predestined not to salvation but to be conformed to the image of his son. Predestination and election are always unto a blessing never unto salvation. Why even mention foreknowledge if it is just God just does it?

Well, first of all, it's an active verb Dave. It's something it is something that God does you're exactly right? That's why it doesn't mean what you think it means if you would recognize it's an active verb.

It's an action of God and you'd recognize your understanding of the term is in error. But that's what happens when you place tradition before Scripture and that's exactly what is what is going on here.

And then you'll notice what happened. When he makes the makes the statements, it's never to salvation. It's interesting I've gotten a number of emails and I've talked about this a couple of times before.

I've gotten a number of emails from folks Who have said now now the the best reading of that passage Thessalonians 2 13 is It chose us as first fruits unto salvation and I I keep my responses. You know one was just asking, you know.

What do you do with the variant another one was was really? Taking me on for daring to criticize Dave Hunt because it believe me Dave Hunt fans are listening to this program now. I think what probably bothers them a little bit is that a lot of times they have to agree with what I'm saying except when I start talking about Calvinism when I'm talking about Roman Catholicism and when you know.

They probably enjoyed the program we did with Eric Svensson on on the perpetual virginity of Mary and and all the rest that stuff. But when you know, if you just weren't one of those nasty Calvinists, you'd be pretty good.

But anyway, one guy was you know, no, it's it's it's not for salvation actually, the the textual variant there is the difference between. And what you have the New American Standard what you have in the King James because this was a Variant that was changed between the the 21st and 27th editions of the Nessie Holland text is a difference of exactly one letter.

The More traditional rendering chose you from the beginning for salvation. The variant is up our case. That's a paw. From and then our case from the beginning but remember the earlier the earliest text were unsealed text they were written in all capitals of no spaces between the words and No contractions or punctuation things like that tractions were there but there wasn't a mark of a contraction and so up our case up would Have a a comma after it to indicate.

It's a paw. And then our case. Well, the the Omicron is taken off. And so you've got up our case from the beginning for salvation the other reading is up our cane one word which means first fruits and When you look at them as they would have existed in unsealed text up our case and up our cane.

The only difference is the final letter whether it's a Sigma or a new and so that's the. That's the whole variant and even if you take up our cane is first fruits. It still has the phrase ice sauté Rion it's still unto Salvation the choice is ice sauté Rion the descriptor is either of when it took place or Who it is who's been chosen to salvation but in?

Both cases it is unto salvation which this is the very thing that Dave repeatedly says. So predestination or election never is unto so the the textual variant despite some of Dave's best defenders Does not change the reality that he never dealt with this passage in His book and and I pointed that out and and his his response was basically well, you know It doesn't really matter and and yada yada yada.

Second Thessalonians 2 13, but it look in the look in the scripture index of what love is this and you will not find any reference to It but you will hear over and over and over again Dave hunt saying the choice is never to salvation.

The choice is never salvation is to blessings. It's it's a mantra and even when Shown in the translation that he uses King James Version chosen from the beginning for salvation. He finds a way out of it and continues to say the same thing why even mention for knowledge if it is just God.

Just does it know the ones that he knew would respond To his grace and to the gospel He has marked out blessings for them now these vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. These are the ones that God knew What they would do?

He knew their evil hearts.

So, let's let's make sure we understand what's being said here, okay. This is in the context of the Potter and the clay and the Potter having the right to make from the same lump One vessel for honor and another vessel for dishonor.

Okay. So in the context of emphasizing the Potter's freedom the Potter's authority. Drawing from a human analogy Mr. Hunt is saying well, you see God knew what our hearts would be like the wait a minute isn't so so the Potter Looks at the clay and he sees in the lump this lump Will be evil so I will make it into a vessel of dishonor or he sees in this lump Oh, wait a minute.

It only says one lump. Hmm. I don't know how that would work. Anyway, you know, it's it's it's 530 and and I don't see anything in my in my in my little window here about but anyone calling 877 -753 -334 -1.

You know, maybe folks figure because straight gate is down that That we are. I'm not I'm not sure because normally Thursday night a busy night a busy night indeed, but You know, well, I know I was gone last week.

And so Maybe this is everyone's way of getting back at me for having been gone for a week and I'm going to be gone a lot over the next number of Next number of weeks but not so much on Tuesdays and Thursdays there is that one trip to Sao Paulo Brazil, and I don't think we're gonna be doing any international phone calling at that point to Things like that but This is normally when we would stop and we would have our our standard Commercials and and things like that, but we we don't have them queued up.

I'm not even sure how we got the other things working. Maybe we did them off the other are we just did we just skip the file server today just sort of shot it and and Things like that, but so that means I get to do what are called live spots.

And I used to do this as a radio announcer. There'd be a big old Three ring binder up above the the board and you'd you'd look in the log and you're supposed to do a 30-second for such-and-such and so you'd turn over to that particular Advertiser and of course once you got to know what to do you would you wouldn't just sit there and slavishly read it all the time.

You start developing different ways of doing it, and if you knew the advertiser you'd do stuff. And so we've got live spots here, but the problem is the suggested spots. Coming from the control room on the other side of the wall Are on books that I wrote and you know you sort of know something about those for example The sovereign grace of God which used to be called God's sovereign grace.

Is that and drawn by the father a lot of folks have been picking up those books recently? Using them as a friendly introduction to the doctrines of grace. That's why I wrote them the way that I wrote them and those are available on the website of everybody snapped up all of the Extra copies that we had of the original printing of back from about 1991 or so and Spam oh that's it hmm someone's talking about Selling a can of spam for the cameras.

Those are all gone, but the new printing is is available from from the ministry and of course right now I would think that one of the books that hopefully would be truly hot in the sense of Something that people would be finding very useful is the same-sex controversy the issue of homosexuality has as I've mentioned a number of times on the program come to the fore and Obviously Christians need to be aware of the issues at hand they need to be ready to give a biblical defense of their faith.

And I don't have it in here right now. I put back in the other other room. But I was being shown a video put out by soul force a religious homosexual organization in which a one point a homosexual minister Brags that he has debated many fundamentalist and has never lost.

Such a debate and all of you listening you're going. Oh Yeah, you better believe we're gonna gonna track that boy down and See just how far this this boast actually goes but that materials out there and very very very few Christians are really prepared to give a Biblical defense of their position let alone really interact with the key passages Genesis and Leviticus and the the the whole concept of marriage and God's sovereign right to determine man's sexual behavior Romans chapter 1 1st Timothy 1st Corinthians 6 all these passages that are extremely extremely important to To handle so same-sex controversy is available.

You know what what you what would be very wise Is taking Ordering the same-sex controversy and the videotape of the debate with Barry Lynn on homosexuality and make it a present to your pastor. If you're concerned about these issues, and you would like to do something nice for some of the elders in your church then Buy a copy of the book you may have it already Buy a copy of the book do not take it down to Kinko's and and and photocopy it buy a new copy of the book and The videotape of the debate and give it to him and when he says what's this for you could say it's for elder Appreciation day, or you can say whatever you want to say it doesn't really matter.

You can just say here. It's for you, and they would find Find that to be very useful, so why don't you do that well so much for the live spots? We've got a couple phone callers online Just about done with this section from mr.. Hunt.

Let's go back to it real quick and then.

Talk with the other folks online. To his grace into the gospel He has marked out blessings for them. Now these vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. These are the ones that God knew What they would do?

He knew their evil hearts. He knew their rebellion. We go back a ways to Pharaoh. But wasn't that God made Pharaoh be the bad guy that he was. But God knew the heart of Pharaoh. And he arranged to have Pharaoh become Pharaoh.

Just to be there at that time.

Isn't it nice that God can look down the quarters of time and go hey, there's an evil guy that I can use that I Thought he said something about for this very purpose. I raised you up.

Just to be there at that time It does say he hardened Pharaoh's heart, but on the other hand Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did that. And you go back and read the story God tells Moses one of the first things he says is I know he won't let the people go.

Well, then why does God harden his heart. If Pharaoh is as the Calvinist teaches totally depraved God wouldn't have to harden his heart. Well Pharaoh is scared to death because the plagues have been so awesome.

He would let the people go out of fear not for the right reason. And his heart wouldn't have changed. So you go back in the in the Hebrew the word for hardened there means he strengthened him he gave him the.

Courage the backbone that's right to the spinelessness that I've written produce right to keep saying no.

Until God had executed all of the judgment. He wanted upon the gods.

Of Egypt well, you know that's partially true. Now I'm not sure why it is that Dave can say the original Hebrew says such-and-so but if I say something like that all of Dave's followers accused me of Obfuscation and being an elitist and and when I challenged Dave on his misunderstandings of those original languages, and I can guarantee you They've got this Strengthened or hardened means strengthened probably from Norm Geisler's book.