Presuppositionalism, Chorazin and Bethsaida, and Rob Bell

honoring god's creation of time by not playing with our clocks this is the dividing line webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of phoenix arizona this is the dividing line the apostle peter commanded christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is doctor james white director of alpha and omega ministries and an elder at the phoenix reformed baptist church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with doctor white call now at six oh two nine seven three four six zero two or toll free across the united states it's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic here is james white and good morning or afternoon or whatever time it is where you are it is always the same time here in the great state of arizona i did not happen to notice the moon freezing in its place the stars stopping in their courses the sun changing its time no so it is eleven a m here just as it was last time and yet there are those who came in the channel before going where's the dividing line there's no dividing line today and it's like uh...

well it's that twice a year time we get to mock the time challenged it is it's a lot of fun actually but uh...

anyways thanks for joining us today uh... i have a number of things queued up here and uh...

we also have phone calls coming in as well and um... i think what i'll do is uh...

i'll go ahead and let's just go ahead and i'm gonna start with a phone call and then i've got some clips to play from an interview yesterday and then see what's the other uh...

phone calls come in with a sort of mix everything up today on the dividing line i'm not sure if the great master of the sound board is ready for me to go to calls but we're going to go to them anyways and uh...

we're going to talk to uh... in up in utah high -end hi doctor what are you doing good i'm a long -time listener first -time caller big phantom privilege to talk to you and you you found at the right time even i'm very proud of that uh...

i guess yes uh... wasn't the third of the time change there you go there you go you you you you recognize that you all had engaged in artificial time behavior over the weekend and and we just don't do that so anyway artificial time behavior but never come up with that one before but uh...

anyway what i did for you well uh... i'm a student at columbia evangelical seminary is getting ready to write my dissertation i'm not choosing an apologetic topic and uh...

uh... basically uh... presuppositional and i look into you a lot of people out of your debate uh...

however uh... wondering if you have read arcee sproles book on classical apologetics i've signed it as uh...

textbook in classes when i talk christian philosophy religion as far back as uh...

when did i come out some time to and i'm trying to remember i think i'm like that yes i've used it i've used it many times as the counterpoint uh...

to always ready or something like that so that we can discuss the differences and compare and contrast and uh...

uh... yes uh... and in fact i will tell you that uh... when uh...

i'll ask the man behind the sound board here was it was like september of oh nine is that when the ligonier conference was in scottsdale is that about right how did i remember that i'm not horrible things like that uh...

what september of oh eight okay uh... the the the rookie says september of oh eight so anyway uh...

it was it was ironic that uh... there's a ligonier conference and and arcee sproles speaking at scottsdale bible church in the big big big auditorium and during the q and a he's just ripping on presuppositionalism while i'm in another building with a line of guys that i'm talking to about presuppositionalism so uh...

at least the dialogue can take place but i love arcee i just think this is a blind spot uh...

because the book uh... has been uh... i think soundly and properly criticized by uh...

a wide range of people uh... john frame and others students of greg bonson have pointed out that the representation of the presuppositional perspective that is presented there just isn't overly robust or accurate i thought it was a little weak uh...

that's that's a nice way of putting it yeah it wasn't didn't didn't really uh... fill in the gaps no no it didn't and did you hear uh...

did you hear uh... the uh... debates uh...

that took place between uh... geisel uh... geisel and sprole yeah right between uh... sprole and bonson yes i did i did alright uh...

that helps to give some context okay i did uh... and actually i thought there were some weak points on on both sides okay um...

but i was wondering well first of all of the one of things i was wondering is what is the answer because arcee sprole says these presuppositionalists are wrong because they say well we have to start with god and he basically makes the argument how can you start outside of yourself you have to start with yourself because you can't escape yourself and i was just wondering if there was an answer to that or if you could point me to maybe some resources that would help me with that well i mean that's a that is a fundamental uh...

epistemological assertion uh... that our our knowledge of that all of our knowledge including our knowledge of god has to be based upon uh...

mankind and upon our own experience uh... that's a that is one of the huge differences and uh...

that's where from a reform perspective i i just don't understand doctor sproles assertion of that uh...

we cannot escape ourselves but what are we we are created in the image of god right and the very the very connecting points uh...

that we are that we assert as a as presuppositionalist is exactly that that we are uh...

individuals create the image of god and that there is no moral uh...

morally neutral point or any other kind of neutral point whatsoever because god has created everything as it is to have true knowledge of anything creation this comes from our our radical belief that that god is the creator of all things that jesus christ is the creator of all things and that all things have a purpose if you if you start there and that's not just a reformed idea that that's pretty much just a christian theistic idea i would think uh...

but if you start there then what does that do to that assertion that we will we cannot escape ourselves we cannot escape our creatureliness but does that mean that that creatureliness do you think rc is saying more than that because that's kind of what he always comes back to is that is that we we are limited as creatures and that's why we have to start with ourselves well but see i would say uh...

our limitedness as creatures makes us dependent upon god's revelation that's why we don't start with ourselves because because again and this is where the reformed issue comes in is if we were unfallen creatures you might at least be able to make the argument that it's god's intention that as unfallen creatures for some purpose that you know i can't can't imagine what it would be but some purpose god wants us to function that way my my concern is that we are not unfallen creatures we are fallen creatures and therefore we have to have uh...

that that type of uh... external source which is found in revelation but i would argue that even adam in his unfallen state was still dependent upon divine revelation god had to tell him what his purpose was god had to provide revelation for him uh...

i'd i'd never see a time when man could ever start with himself alone outside of the priority and centrality of the divine revelation of god in the progress of the i think our c and others drive this from thomas aquinas their their love of aquinas uh...

and he was just inconsistent this point is now i don't i don't don't believe this philosophy is consistent with a reformed epistemology i would i would agree with while the criticisms that uh...

until uh... aims that direction and that's why i felt that the debate uh...

that took place train uh... boston and and arcee was was rather telling along those lines uh...

and very useful marvel glad they did it did again uh... i i i mentioned uh...

in bellflower uh... just couple nights ago that it it really bugs me when certain people say one i'm not i'm not going to be christians uh...

we should be the people of the best of doing inter interpersonal and intervarsity debates because we can show each other respect and go the word of god but i'm awful glad that they did that so we can hear those two perspectives and from from my perspective the radical purposefulness of divine creation and hence the reality of god's decree the fact he's accomplishing something and that we are created in such a way that we can interact with that purpose and and are are central to that purpose i mean certainly it's the the the glorification trying god in the salvation of a specific people that is central to what god is doing that gives us a ground of understanding who man is how man's to function howard to know god is found that radical purposefulness and i just don't see how asserting epistemology it says we start with ourselves uh...

rather than start as creatures do you think it we might be equivocating over the word start with well and he's one of us i mean you have to uh...

what what's the what is the weight of the argument that arcee's making if it is not to change the starting point to our interaction uh...

with the world around us and hence to a something like a cosmological argument or or some type of observation of the created universe what's what's the way the argument if that's not what start with means yeah yeah he means he means start with ontologically but i think he also means start with logically too yeah yeah i mean he says we can't escape ourselves and therefore logically we have to begin from ourselves and work our way to god yeah and i i i i honestly believe that if man begins with himself he will never work and see his way to the triune god of scripture uh...

uh... i'd just i'd did it for it from my perspective if we start with ourselves we will end up creating an image of god that is uh...

compatible with us and pleasing to us uh... we are dependent upon divine revelation for for so much of the the truth about who god is and i i i understand you know i i was mentioning i i mentioned this uh...

saturday night in bellflower uh... lane's gonna have the videos up sometime soon and you'll you'll notice i i did address this but i read that there is a philosophy major from biola who asked me a question similar to this and so the the the two of us are piggyback off of each other even though he wasn't asking us for loses time a general presuppositional ism but one of the things that that i uh...

emphasized in that context uh... that i'm that i'm emphasizing here is this when we look at who we are and what we are and how god has created us uh...

the starting point has to be found in the radical creator the one who has made all things when we start with ourselves i'd sort of like as calvin said our eyes are always going to be upon the ground rather than uh...

looking up and seeing the bright light of of the sun and i think it's a great illustration that that's uh...

the calvin used and i'd just don't believe that if we start with ourselves that the line of argumentation is going to lead us uh...

to uh... the kind of argumentations used but but i also recognize that there are connections between the arguments that we use for example you're obviously from there is a transcendental argument and you're aware of the fact uh...

uh... i'm not sure if you've heard this particular phraseology but there is something called p s are the principle sufficient reason and you can hear the dependence the transcendental argument upon the upon p s are in the bonds and stein debate where were bonds and says the sign what you're appealing to brute facts and brute facts are irrational that is when stein kept saying was just the way things are it's a it is well that's a violation of p s are the principle sufficient reason for the principle sufficient reason says there has to be a reason why things are the way they are you can't just simply appeal to brute facts well uh...

the best form of the cosmological argument uh... really boils down to whether p s are is valid or not if p s are is valid than the cosmological argument is valid as well so there's connection between the two but i'd i'd firmly believe that any argument uh...

no matter what what how you you phrase it it's the if it's the interpretive framework that you fitted into uh...

that has to do it has to be first and foremost our mind and if you're dealing with an individual who is a creature of god who's rejecting his creatureliness he's going to find a way to fit any argument into that continued rejection that's the that's the that's the uh...

not only the the epistemological but the moral connection point that we need to be that we need to be going for uh...

you know because our argumentation isn't just simply to provide an argument our desire is to see this person repent of their sins and bow the knee to lord jesus christ and so you know that's not that doesn't fit into the strict philosophers handbook of how you do things but that's another reason why functioning in the lordship of christ uh...

means you're gonna do things differently than the world does and so if i'm dealing with somebody i'm gonna deal with them as the bible describes them to be and i'm going to go ahead and press upon that conscience uh...

that is that is hurting and that they because they are suppressing the knowledge of god and i'm gonna pry up those fingers from him withholding and suppressing the knowledge of god that's what i feel view my role as and uh...

that's that's i think the power of the the presuppositional perspective is because the evidential perspective basically leaves you appealing to that person as if they are an autonomous authority to judge your evidences as if they have the authority to judge whether they are or not a creature of god i just don't see how that fits with the authoritative proclamation that we see in act seventeen were where paul says god is appointed a where he will judge every man by a man that he has appointed having raised him from the dead i mean there is a day of judgment coming and you're going to be judged by somebody else and you don't have the right to say well i'm gonna opt out of that no you're not uh...

that day of judgment is coming in god has fixed it and set it and that's the way it is and that's authoritative proclamation that's not well you know i'd like to suggest these things to you and maybe if you think about it long enough you might find that this is no uh...

because paul recognizes these are idolaters they're already suppressing the knowledge of god well they could do with more knowledge of god they're going to suppress it too so what does he do?

he pries up the fingers that's what i see uh... but there's some disconnect there between suppressing the knowledge of god and whether or not the arguments are valid arguments the suppression is a moral suppression but it has epistemological ramifications because it is so because it is systemic it's not just in the moral realm but it is a part of the very definition of the creature just as for example look at how over overarching and invasive homosexuality becomes amongst homosexuals themselves it becomes their identity the suppression of the knowledge of god becomes part of the very identity of the who is in rebellion against god and so it creates an epistemological methodology where you can find a place for any argument as long as it allows you to suppress the knowledge of god i've seen this happen i mean well yeah yeah we've seen it happen but they do it with uh...

the transcendental argument too it's not it's not like uh... somebody listens to the transcendental argument says oh i'm gonna be a christian here here's much better argumentation right but the difference is the difference is the form of argumentation you're using does not appeal to the sinner to continue in his rebellion and grant to him the grounds to judge the existence of god when you when you present the cosmological argument which by the way i think is valid given the validity of PSR i believe that it's valid why do i believe that because it is consistent with the christian world view there's there's there's there's reason to it but when i present it in such a way that the that the the atheist i'm saying well you know i think if you'll examine this you'll come to the same conclusion that i'm coming to and if you do so then these these the things you need to do on the basis of that that's different in saying well i would like you to judge the existence of god and you can make up your mind one way or the other from there that's very different from saying you to even consider the argumentation i'm using are having to steal from the god whose existence you are you are suppressing there is an immediate moral pressure in the transcendental argument that is not present in the cosmological and out now you can call that just a functional thing but i i think it it it's very very important to observe and to recognize and from my perspective you have to have a big enough theology substantiate that and that's why you don't find too many non -reform folks using a uh...

uh... presuppositional approach as i still think they're their theology is big enough to support it so what you're saying if i can maybe boil it down you can tell me if i'm right about this or not with in the transcendental the pre -supposition argument it intrinsically carried with it a a moral uh...

uh... a a moral uh... uh... requirement given the nature of the person to whom we're making it yes yeah i get it that you it which which the uh...

which is saying the uh... cosmological argument doesn't exist that here are the fact and then you make up your own mind but pre -suppositional argument you would say is it's not just the facts right if you see if you don't have the right your your mind is already made up and you need to change them i know that in other words is implicit call repents yes and uh...

you know that doesn't fit with theologies don't have repents in anymore either uh... that's why that's what i found odd about my reformed brethren who who rejected because it just seems to uh...

this is something i said many many times and that is are apologetics must flow from our theology we shouldn't just simply have our theology and try to come up with a apologetic that at least will will fit without too much of a difficulty it should just be the natural flow and conclusion of our theology it just seems to me but the pre -suppositional perspective flows so naturally from what we've we believe about god and we believe about his decree and what we believe about man and his suppression the knowledge of god and all these other things that you just it there's just this flow that it did it that is to me and the real the real strength of the of the entire argument well thank you clear up quite a bit for me okay and i i i i would like to love to see what you come up with when you when you're right here at your work well thank you i might have to call you again and and clarify a couple of you know you don't have time just for me on your show well i appreciate your recognition of that i think that's the anarchist and so you start off the program with a nice uh...

my brain is going to be leaking out of my ears after this because i did uh... reform podcast with chris date from uh...

nine uh... thirty to ten forty five uh... so i did an hour and fifteen minutes uh...

i'll i'll try to blog it when uh... chris post that we did an hour and fifteen minutes on roman catholic claims of authority solo script or uh...

yearly church uh... first in the three fifteen uh... the papacy i mean we we covered we covered everything and uh...

so as soon as i gets posted i'll try to let folks know about that and uh...

i'll go from there but i'm i'm gonna uh... it's uh... i'm not sure that i can guarantee the orthodoxy of almost anything else i have to say uh...

for the rest of this time period and i want uh... all right i i want to get to the rod bell thing but uh...

it looks like we have uh... a silly brit uh... on on the line uh...

in fact uh... silly brit to silly brit to come in the silly brit to are you still with the ministry of city walks absolutely how are you sir i just thought i think that uh...

thank you very much uh... i thought you needed that well do you have a uh... no not really but uh...

thankfully most people can understand what you're saying because a japanese british accents really bad so uh...

anyway uh... you know i answered one of your questions did you know so you have a good i appreciate it so why are you so why are you throwing these things out that you know these these tough these tough questions just trying to trip me up or what now i just thought uh...

i'm not sure exactly how to answer and i thought why not put someone else under pressure uh...

why not so i know i don't know rather than me thinking about it in the cold calm collected time of my own office but just throw it out to james white when mhm mhm mhm okay well you know it's it's odd because no one knows we're talking about but uh...

for for some reason uh... you have a question about tire and sidon uh...

what what might that be yeah well as you know luke ten thirteen jesus said what you charles and what you've got by that crystal money works done and you've been done in town side and they would have repented long ago sitting in fact up and i should send so i think wrote this question to me and i've been kind of wondering the best way to respond to it obviously if tyrant fighting had observed more mighty works they would have repented jesus said someone then who has on many and all synergistic glasses as they look at that text which they look the doctrine of total depravity teaches that far more is needed than merely the observation of mighty works for someone to repent and we agree with that right it would need the regenerating work of the holy spirit how do we understand that warning the amendment looks at that and said look jesus is not being very reformed at all in saying that if jesus is calvinist uh...

then merely the observation of signs would have brought inhabitants of tyrant fighting to repentance that doesn't make jesus very reformed and uh...

i'm wondering how best to answer them and look at that well you know uh...

i'd by all is like going on uh... but it'll be more bearable in the judgment for tyrants and then for you and you could perium will you be exalted to heaven you shall be brought down to haiti's obviously that the focus is judgment well it's not a judgment but it is uh...

present judgment upon what upon jewish cities filled with individuals who are claiming a knowledge of god and a a kind of piety and righteousness uh...

which is the very uh... essence of what jesus himself attacks in matthew chapter twenty three uh...

in the leaders themselves paramount there was a there is a complacency uh...

there is a uh... i was looking at the uh... well uh... one of the uh...

well the other text that you had that he would mention and and that was of course the issue of of nazareth and and and the fact that uh...

the terms almonzo is used uh... even jesus was amazed at their unbelief and i and i wondered just what's behind all of that in the sense of what was it like to be someone who was around uh...

jesus as he grew up uh... what what you know is there something more there that maybe someday we will know something more about uh...

or or will we even care about what was happening back on earth once we're in the presence of god i i don't know uh...

that that that's that speculation but my concern in uses of text like luke chapter ten in this way is is a concern that i have even when my my reformed brother and call in and they say hey could we understand this text in this way and in fact i think this happened last program or or two programs go on the two after all of our latest also question the one big program but but uh...

a you know some inside attacks and i'm like well uh... you know that's consistent but we always need to look at what the primary purpose of any text is and you need to be carried uh...

you know letting the main things be the main things and not necessary look for other stuff so what is that what is the main point of luke ten thirteen through fourteen uh...

is the fact that tire inside and were looked down upon as examples of worldly uh...

uh... pagan idolatrous uh... outside of the grace of god outside the covenant community uh...

etcetera etcetera that's that's how these places were looked at and uh... the the point is the complacent attitude of i'm so much better than somebody else because of what i possess in my genealogical history and the points that is being done is mighty works had been done in craze and that's a tough mighty works had been done in capernaum and in nazareth and i think it's uh...

very very parallel passages here the uh... the the guilt and the weight that comes upon those people who have been given so much light before christ comes in the scriptures here i mean that seems to be what the whole thing of the important part of a sentence is the uh...

is having so much light and yet being able to to you know you've got file actaries on your forehead did you hear about the guys recently by the way uh...

just couple days ago they they they landed a plane because some jewish guys were doing a prayer ritual where they're putting file actaries on their head well and they were so scared that this is a flight crew became so scared to didn't know what this was but they landed the plane uh...

and so the file actaries stuff is still still going on so you've literally got the word of god on your forehead on your body in your clothing uh...

nailed to the the door of your house you you're surrounded by it you say this small every morning you go to synagogue you have all this light and then the total contract to the inhabitants of town exactly who had none of that staff they had none of the privileges think think of romans two here think of the the strong words of romans two and paul's statement you think you're right with god because you merely possess the word of god it's not the possession of the word of god it's doing the word of god that matters and so you have all these privileges and then the one that is testified to and prophesied in all those scriptures is walking your streets calling you to repentance and you are deaf and dumb and blind and the point is to create the strongest possible contrast just as and and jesus got himself in trouble many times by doing this because who does he say has great faith i've never seen such a great faith in all of israel as these gentiles these people that that that had not even the dog exactly exactly these are people that had not even had the privileges uh...

that the jewish people have had and yet it's almost as if but the exposure to light brings blindness to light if you do not live in light of the light and that's what's going on here and that's definitely the point of the passage oh yeah oh yeah definitely so when you say jesus isn't being reformed enough what you're saying is well uh...

i'd i can read into this text all sorts of discussions about well they couldn't have possibly repented except by the the point actually is that these individuals who are a little pagans are not nearly as opposed to god and his truth as those who possess the word of god but refuse to obey it and you know we see that we see that uh...

we see that in the church we see what happens for example and uh... and uh... soon as we're done here i'm going to be talking a little bit about rob bell and if you know anything about rob bell's history and the emergent movement what gives it what gives it life these are former fundamentalist former conservatives raised in it exposed to it but what happens when people who do not have the changed heart are are held down by the power of god's law and maybe by the in their family and things like that once they're out from underneath that there comes the the expression of the rebellion and the detestation of god's law and all the rest of stuff that comes along with it and i think it's very important in the in the foundation of the of the emergent church movement and the same thing same thing with these folks surrounded by god's truth but if it doesn't change the heart it becomes the object of derision the object of perversion which is exactly what you see in the pharisees they don't abandon it they just turn into a means of making money and filling their own their own lusts so that's the contrast is being made there and so i think jesus is being quite reformed because he is recognizing that uh...

the individuals around him even though they possess the word of god uh... that's not enough it's not mere possession it's not genealogy there's something more to it and uh...

if i've understood you correctly then what we should do is just stick with the main point of that passage rather than camp out on a possible inference well that's all that's being read i mean it's just like my it's not a mandatory one it's a possible one but stick with the main point it's just like my roman catholic uh...

apologist friends who attempt to create a doctrine of justification from jesus' statement that wisdom will be justified by her children rather than going to romans chapters three and four where that's the whole subject that is the subject i mean how in the world can you walk through romans one through three twenty and come to the conclusion well yeah you know those folks in tyrant sidon they were god fears there is fear of god before their eyes she did this proves it you know it you just have to remember uh...

there's there's not it god has not given to us a means of shutting the mouth of everybody in this lifetime outside of one simple thing and that is a heart that wants to hear all of god's word and know god's truth will be able to find what that truth is but a heart that wants to remain in confusion or to maintain a tradition of something there uh...

you know uh... people people often look to me to give them that kind of of answer and it's just not there at least not if you're going to be true to the text yeah and lieutenant not dealing with the subject of regeneration and where it is and how it happens now he's dealing with a completely different if you want that you go to john three or john six and i don't know and exactly you got it right i got it well thank you very much and uh...

i don't have to stop by the ministry of city walks i i need a new one if you can come up with one for please i'll work on it but uh...

as you know we need uh... much more funding from the government uh... it's really british respond but i think that's what i think that it but i don't want to go back having just been uh...

over in the u k and getting to watch sky news and bbc i can tell you that is it that's exactly how they would uh...

they would respond as those ways about well look it's already uh... thirty four minutes in the program and uh...

uh... well i need to get to this because i've always been a bunch of time to all the stuff up i don't know why i i i've tried to avoid this as much as possible i i have mentioned that i had ordered i have ordered the kindle edition of love wins uh...

it's all over the blogosphere i think one of the reasons that i'm attracted to at least spending some time on this it's not relevant to the books i'm writing it's somewhat of a distraction i'll be honest but i think one of the reasons i am attracted to this aside from the the fact i've addressed this stuff before we have a debate that i did uh...

with john sanders on inclusivism a lot of my presentation will be relevant to the stuff that's being said uh...

i have a debate uh... that i did on the unbelievable radio program a link to it on the existence of hell a lot that i said there uh...

would be relevant to this uh... it's not that i haven't uh... dealt with this this subject before but i i went ahead and order the book uh...

cuz it'll get her before the kindle edition did so i could mainly because uh... kevin de young has done us all a service and has written a a twenty page pdf review he got a a preview copy and there are page numbers and one of the things that that he mentioned was the rob bell doesn't bother giving page numbers or references to his sources just like the sources he uses uh...

as we point out in the uh... reverie reputation of the newman fifteen video in his silly mithra arguments and stuff like that i listened to uh...

the review by kevin de young while writing yesterday and then yesterday i was just about to leave the house and also somebody tweeted uh...

that a live interview of rob bell is about to begin so i recorded a portion of it i couldn't stick around for all that i record a portion of it and i want to play portions of it and respond to what rob bell had to say because i was uh...

taken aback by how uh... well kevin de young if kevin de young's review is correct and he gives citations and page numbers so i don't have any reason to question that i've enjoyed his work in the past and so uh...

but again i'm i'm going on a secondary source here but now i've got a primary source and that's rob bell himself and having listened to the review prior to listening to this uh...

concerns me even more concerns me in the sense that we have here a situation where look i went to fuller seminary folks please don't throw anything at me i know what quote -unquote mainstream protestant liberalism is and that's all this stuff is he'll even say here there's nothing new in his book he's right there's nothing new in airman's book this there's nothing new under the sun folks and yet you put you know some slick marketing on it and people make a bunch of cash on it and that's what's going on here there's nothing new here this stuff's been refuted over and over again and yet we're gonna have to deal with it once again every generation does we shouldn't be upset about that every generation has to go back over these things deal with these things that's fine that's that's appropriate that's proper but there's nothing new to it and it's sad that many people think uh...

well uh... so let's uh... let's take a look let's listen i've got six little markers in about the first few minutes well the first half hour of of the interview with ron bell let's listen to a ron bell had to say and uh...

give some response right uh... what happened you have been accused and a lot of uh...

coverage of your book of being a universalist universalist theological terms means everybody gets to go ahead uh...

everybody's allowed to go to heaven uh... that means buddhists hindus you can reinterpret my definition of universalist when you want it when i'm done asking the question uh...

buddhists hindus jews uh... atheists all get to go to heaven are you a universalist?

no if by universalist we mean there's a giant cosmic arm that swoops everybody in at some point whether you want to be there or not and this is why a couple years ago i did a wedding and the father of the bride made it really clear that he despised the groom in a number in a multitude of ways and so in the ceremony when he walked his daughter down and it was that moment when the father of the bride hands the bride off to the groom he said she's yours now in front of everybody which was total like father of the bride single -handedly cast the most oppressive dark cloud on the whole occasion because parties are terrible when there's somebody there who doesn't want to be there so if by universalist we mean love doesn't win and god sort of co -ops the human heart and says well you're coming here and you're gonna like it that violates the laws of love and love is about freedom it's about choice do you want to be here?

because that's what would make it heaven if you're there and you don't want to be now do i think all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds with all sorts of labels will be yes i think heaven's full of surprise and i think jesus brought this up again and again he told all sorts of stories about how all the people who are supposed to be in might be out and the people who are out might be in this was central to his teaching like uh uh uh be careful god's not even a surprise that's not actually a verse but i like it okay um...

love is all about freedom love is all about freedom theology matters folks uh...

here there is a reason why arminianism is the the potting soil of universalism and if you're trying to understand how that was an answer to the question and that he's uh...

and if you're you're wondering that is this guy just a politician doesn't want to give a straight answer uh...

he is a universalist because what he's saying is love wins god's love eventually melts all hearts and so you see what the fundamental idea here is is that it's it is god's intention to save everyone it is not god's intention to ever demonstrate his wrath it is not god's intention to uh...

have his justice seen it is god's intention by love to melt every heart and so the party's going to be a really good party dude because everybody's going to be there and they want to be there they may not want to be there now but dude they're gonna want to be there eventually that's sort of the emergent way of seeing it and love wins because love will eventually win over all these individuals and that's that's just how it works so that's that's his perspective and so uh...

as kevin de young pointed out there there's a fundamental issue here in regards to the very nature of god i was so thankful that kevin de young pointed out that something i've pointed out over and over again it's nice to hear somebody else saying it and that is that the kind of love rob bell attributes to god is the undifferentiated impersonal kind of love that is subhuman same stuff that i have had the same response to dave hunt over and over and over and norman geisler over and over i don't know how hunting guys will respond to this project as universal is bad but they will not be able to enter into providing a meaningful rebuttal because they likewise do not allow god the freedom to love love has everything to freedom how god's freedom to love as he sees fit no no no no there's only one kind of undifferentiated divine love it's a melt everybody's heart so everybody's to be the big party in half this belief of yours that we're all gonna or you know good people define what gets you in i begin with this i begin with the reality of heaven and hell right now greed injustice rape abuse we see hell on earth all around us all the time now let me just stop that just for a moment no we don't because the one thing is completely missing in his theology is the idea of hell as demonstration of the wrath of god and the justice of god there is none of that for him there is none of that for him i just realized this probably isn't going to pick up the right spot well it's not so i'm going to have to do something differently and sort of skip over to about reality is here and now and we actually see lots of people choosing hell we see oppression we see tyranny we see dictators using their power to eliminate the opposition like literally with bullets and guns and fire we see hells on earth right now there are those that we sort of create our own and then there are those we are the somebody else's that sort of spills over onto us so i'm an atheist say and i'm an atheist who gives to the poor and helps little old ladies spends all of my free time in charitable work am i going to heaven?

the essence of grace is jesus saying left to your own we are all in deep trouble we've made a mess of this place we're all sinners no one has clean hands so the essence of his gospel was trust me i'll take care of it just trust me now how exactly that works out because he's unbelievably exclusive he says these things like i'm the way the truth and the life no one comes with the father but through me he says things like if you've seen me you've seen god so he's very exclusive he's also fantastically inclusive he says things like you know i have other sheep says things like there'll be a renewal of all things he says i'll be lifted up and draw all people to myself he's like inexclusive that's a word that i just made up and so i think what happens is especially for followers of jesus is there are sort of his exclusive claims that are often at the expense of the other things that he says which are be careful because i'm doing something for everybody and how exactly that pans out that's god's job how exactly that pans out that's god's job i'm just gonna present contradictions to you and then i'm just gonna leave them unresolved because that's really that makes me look really cool uh...

notice that there's a simple way of reading uh... i am the way the truth and the life no man comes the father but by me i don't know how you read that in any other way than exclusively and i will draw them into myself is in the context of jews and greeks so there is clear exclusivity in the choices that god makes so it isn't a contradiction it isn't the contradiction that the emergent type guy wants it to be uh...

but that's the presentation he makes so this sort of universalism that you're preaching that's exclusive and inclusive that i just denied has offended some people who call themselves more orthodox than you but i'll tell you something that would be a great name for a movement by the way and actually my mainline protestant friends and we can get into that in a minute have a big conflict with the word orthodox and certain people claiming to be orthodox but there is something in here that offends me and it's not let me just stop it there for just a moment fundamentally if the question is correct then what's the foundation of this there's no way of defining orthodoxy i'm more orthodox than you well all new religious movements or cultic religious movements or false religion they all have to say well we really don't know they have to be agnostic on certain things you need me and what's even more here now you've got the idea well you know who's really to say what orthodoxy is rob bell wants to be i'm thoroughly orthodox on what on what is there a standard and what is that standard and if it's scripture then you need to answer for the fact that you don't handle it very well but really the emergent perspective is that well it's a reaction against something else it's against his upbringing specifically there's something in here that offends me and it's not the sort of universalist part and it is what you just said which is that jesus is the mechanism yeah through which we all will get there yeah i understand so i'm jewish yeah and my relatives many of my relatives died in europe for being jewish and they would be appalled to think that their salvation was dependent on jewish on jesus because they died for being jewish so are you sure now i stop it there and i go how would you respond what is the only way a christian can respond i mean they died for being jewish okay that's a terrible thing and those who perpetrated those crimes will be judged for their crimes there's no question about that but what does any of this have to do with god's right to provide one way of salvation through the jewish messiah jesus the messiah that's what jesus christ means jesus the messiah yeshua his jewish name what does any of that have to do with that this pure emotion and an awesome opportunity to expose that and to proclaim the gospel let's see what rob bell does do you know that jesus is the mechanism well i thought i would say this in the torah when moses strikes the rock and water flows from the rock that is a beautiful story of people who are thirsty and were told that through moses god provides them water then later you know where i'm going with this i do paul was like oh yeah that water was christ but he speaks of this christ who is the word of god who is the animating force of the universe he broadens this way way wide and then he adds almost no commentary he just says god has been rescuing people redeeming people for thousands of years we see this throughout history and then he sort of lets that just sit there so that means that the bible itself creates all sorts of space there now of course the christian answers your question yeah well then they're going to get there and they're going to find out that it was you know oh right there's some magical little jesus mechanism that happens right right and you find out and you're like it was you all along i didn't know did you catch that some type of magical little jesus mechanism that goes on there yeah that's the triune god glorifying himself in the person of jesus christ the incarnation that's why the incarnation took place so there could be a magical little jesus mechanism there you go someone said that to me i would have had a conniption fit but hey no he just goes yeah right really that is a great question and i think it is most important for a christian at this moment to be incredibly gracious and generous and say he comes and he says i'm showing you what god has done i came to make the torah speak i came to show you compassion i came to show you generosity i came to show you how to love your enemies i came to show you how to make a better world does anybody have a problem with that uh no great um so jesus came to teach us to be moral jesus was a great moral teacher and he saw the christ principle and uh everything's great and everything's wonderful and we just need to find out we're all we've all been forgiven and that is what he's saying by the way he we don't we you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't believe in christ to be forgiven everyone's already forgiven heaven's going to be filled heaven and hell are filled with forgiven people according to rob bell forgiveness and reconciliation that's already done uh and now we just gotta tell people about it and he does say things like very divisive sort of you're but then he also says things like if or if you're not against me then you're for me and he also said if you're not for me you're against me so he said both that sort of tells you to look at both sides he is a paradox he is within himself bears tremendous tension and he's been trying to figure that out for thousands of years tensions that's a big emergent word but hey i went to fuller that's a liberal word that's that's how you that's what you call a contradiction well there's tension in the text you know well if you take an advil does it go away i'm really not sure okay how are we doing with that that was okay was that okay i'll keep trying do creeds matter in terms of getting to heaven like if you say certain things you say certain things like if you get like these eleven things in a row or if you get these nine things in a row yeah if you make a certain kind of declaration once a week or every day or if you yeah i think creeds are very very helpful for lots of people because they sort of take a confession of faith and they put it in a succinct form and i think there is great life there but then you have other stories like in the gospels it's all over the map these guys lower their friend down through a hole in the roof and jesus says well because of their faith to the man your sins are forgiven well what's that well a man named

Zacchaeus says if i've taken anything from anybody i'll i'll give it back and jesus says today salvation has come which is a play i was that's his name but if you actually read the gospels people receive this grace they affirm this they experience this in as many ways almost as there are people so yes creeds are terribly powerful do i think that if you say certain things every sunday that somehow magically does something no creeds are terribly powerful there doesn't seem to be an objective divine reality revelation in rob bell's universe at all i'm getting to this question that through history has been called the faith versus works or the race versus works question right do you get to heaven because god we can even leave aside jesus because god is no you can't leave us like jesus great and supernatural and can do god as god or do you get to heaven because you've helped the old lady across the street and because you've given to charity and because you've taken care of the poor and because you care about i think that at the core of faith is trust and i would use childlike very intentionally childlike trust that god is good and that ultimately we're okay and i think that is a simple beautiful pure thing did you catch that i think we need to listen to that again let's listen to rob bell define faith because i think that probably went by you um god is good and we're okay and i think that is a simple beautiful pure thing that can be complicated ferociously nope i went i went i didn't go back far enough let's try this again of faith is trust and i would use childlike very intentionally childlike trust that god is good and that ultimately we're okay we're okay and i think that is a simple beautiful pure thing that can be complicated ferociously by all sorts of intellectual categories of or scripture and affirmation and i think out of that experience out of that awareness that life is a gift that this next breath is a gift that we are the recipients of this absolutely unbelievably pure thing called life like heschel said to remember like that's what we do and out of that out of that gratitude and out of that love you naturally want to share this with the world so you actually do help the lady off the street not because you think this gets you something but because you are aware that you already have something that's worth the universe and out of that who doesn't respond with yes i will help it how's that that was good what are you thinking oh that was good ooh that was good that was so postmodern nobody in that place had a clue what in the world he was talking about what did that gobbledygook mean well you know life is so precious and pure and wonderful that you just have to realize we're all okay and once you realize that you know you're already okay then you help the little lady across the street because you want to help the little lady oh yeah that's exactly what happens in the world hello are these people all you know skipping through flower strewn fields in san francisco or something have you looked at the world recently hello earth to rob bell oh my goodness um anyway we're running out of time but here go a little longer your book has been even before anybody read it your book was criticized as being radical it seemed to me that a lot of the stuff that you write in your book is stuff that other people have written before i mean i mean that in the nicest way yeah actually in the preface i say this isn't there's nothing new here ah good notice that folks there's nothing new here he's exactly right this is the age -old denial of the gospel that we have we have refuted over and over again now listen to this next question because folks she has his number here the emergent church is nothing more than old -style theological liberalism it's the same stuff that killed all the quote -unquote mainline which are now deadline uh denominations millions of people have left these nominations of the past number of decades there's a reason for this they are dying on the vine their churches are being shuttered and sold there's nothing new here and what happens when you were raised as a fundamentalist and you don't have the heart that actually believes these things eventually you find a way of getting away from these things and so listen to this question so tell me what's so controversial about it i guess other people could answer that better i think that grace and love always rattle people as soon as you say that perhaps this particular little club of people who have decided they're the orthodox ones as soon as you say i think it might be a little wider than that you're threatening whole systems you're threatening whole ways of thinking and that's that's threatening i guess what i'm asking is aren't you just a mainline protestant posing as an evangelical like aren't you just did you catch that aren't you a mainline protestant posing as an evangelical listen to that again mainline protestant posing as an evangelical bingo aren't you just i mean now that we're talking about labels you're just saying stuff that that the episcopalians have been saying for fifty years great do i make some claims to originality no do i think that i am evangelical orthodox to the bone yes and i actually think that orthodoxy is a terribly wide diverse stream now he goes on from there there is no question he can't dance around he must have an incredible tango but she was exactly right she can recognize it as a jewish person aren't you just a mainline protestant posing as an evangelical yes bingo that's exactly right right on the nose and there's nothing new to this he can't admit that because then no one's going to buy his book because no one buys the books of protestant liberals because they're boring it's just the same old same old that we've been hearing for quite some time now and it's already proven to be a complete disaster and a complete failure and that's just all there is to it so fascinating stuff and like i said i'm still going to listen to the book and i've got more i'd like to comment on but just wanted to play those sections of those clips from the interview yesterday for the book launch and make some comments there on interesting program today lots i'm tired i'm done uh...