September 16, 2004

I'm casting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Well, the stack of stuff is very large today, you know two ways about it not expecting any phone calls from Baghdad today. But that was an incredible way to to end the program last time hearing from Steve in Baghdad Sort of makes it real.

Did you notice did you hear the little bit of delay? It's just like when they when you watch the news and they've got they're talking. It's the satellite delay thing. That was that was really interesting, but lots of stuff to talk about today.

I'm a little up on the agitated side. So it probably good to talk about some other things before I get you know, I re agitate myself here in essence so let's go ahead and we are A very privileged to be joined today by someone who normally Joins us by phone, but is probably gonna talk a whole lot.

Let's talk. I don't know if he's gonna talk a lot better or not. In fact, he may not but sound a whole lot better than normal because there's no phone involved this time around and that's because our our good brother Mike from Florida who heads up all of our Cruise stuff and and and just works night and day.

Constantly with never sleeps. So like Martin Luther who sleeps tried to sleep on the floor and in Germany and things like that. Well, except that pretty well ruined Martin Luther. But anyways, that's another story.

Can hear you.

Anyway, Mike Mike O 'Fallon did the wise thing and was going to be coming out here anyways but you know when Hurricane Ivan was still a little ways away and Was was knocking on Florida's door and he decided you know what they do not have hurricanes in Arizona.

We generally do not have earthquakes and race riots and Tsunamis and hurricanes and things like that. It's just really hot. That's that's about all it is out here. So Mike joins us today and Mike is is sitting in our luxurious studios.

Yes.

How do you like those luxurious studios there Mike. Great it's. It's fantastic to share a chair here with rich.

I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10-foot pole. No, there's so many things I could say, but I'm not gonna do that.

Anyhow.

So, uh, I guess this is a dangerous thing. But what's up, Mike?

Well besides the fact that yes I came here to avoid Ivan and I'm gonna make sure that I make it back just in time for Jean. Yes.

I.

Came over here early to avoid the airport closure. But I'm sure my airport will be closed on the way back and have to spend a night in Vegas or something. Isn't the Vegas Airport terrible, you know, you'd think.

Ding ding ding ding ding. This best is hanging off the ceiling. That you could actually see the strip from where you are in the airport that they would actually spend money. To make a nice airport instead of something out of the 19 early 1970s.

You ought to go to Detroit sometime.

Anyway, so.

Well, dr. White we wanted to talk about first of all. There are still many folks that have been signing up for this year's cruise. We just had some folks that Jumped on board yesterday and in boy, what a timely topic they're already on the ship.

Well, no, oh, I'm bored.

Oh, it's a metaphor metaphor. I'm sorry. You didn't nuance that properly. But yes.

Certainly when we had planned this out last year and started talking about what we wanted to do on a cruise. And we said let's talk about justification. That's something that we haven't we haven't touched yet.

There are now so many things. Oh, man. Well, there's different aspects, but we might be able to cover it in a day now. We've Got the we've got seven sessions a day planned now. I think so. Anyway folks if you haven't signed up for that and you wanted to I would suggest.

The fact is I'll tell you honestly on the entire ship right now if you were planning on going with us But have been delaying or waiting for something else to happen or another shoe to drop or whatever.

There are eight cabins left on the entire ship. So if you're planning on going with us this year Try to make sure you do that. And also if you are planning on going to the conference this year I do try to make sure that you get a hotel room.

Whatever else it may be. This is going to be a wonderful time. Jim is gonna be debating Doug Wilson on Friday night and then on Saturday the conference has taken on an element of importance that it Just didn't have before.

And if you know what if Doug Wilson doesn't show up I have someone else in mind we could probably get. From the Phoenix area, you know.

No, no, okay. Oh, you mean someone in the theological? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. I don't know if you do it but anyway. Probably send somebody else or a team of people. Anyway, let's get off that but uh.

What we wanted to do folks is is we have now a year ahead of time. I want to make sure we give people plenty of warning. A lot of folks have been calling us and saying if you do Choose to go anywhere.

That next year this is where we would like you to go. Mm-hmm. And that place would be Alaska and we want to make an official announcement today. It is now.

Make sure I'm rich. Rich. Make sure that I'm I'm up. Okay. Am I up? Okay, here we go.

No, we we do want to make sure that we give you folks plenty of notice on this. This is a trip of a lifetime. We did this three years ago and the folks that were with us. They just you know, it was wonderful.

Even the people that were with us then want to go back again.

Yep, it was guys as you know for most folk for a lot of the folks who've gone multiple ones. It was it was our favorite and I'll tell my my story that you don't like me to tell about the Alaska trip here in A moment, but oh, okay.

I thought about you.

Anyway.

But we wanted to tell you long long time. Plenty of time ahead of time. We are going to be doing this from September the 9th to the 16th 2005. It will be out of Seattle and we wanted to let you know about it that this is already up on the website.

We put it up 30 minutes ago. Fresh with a page that gives you a full tour of the ship that will be on all the the information about the destination. That we're going to just about everything you'd want to know on the trail more than more than we've ever provided before.

Absolutely all sorts of interactive things on the site and so forth, but we have picked and this was actually dr. White.

This ship I did.

This is the celebrity summit. Hmm, and this is the number one rated Luxury cruise line and ship in the world by Condé Nast travel. This this ship is absolutely glorious that especially when we talk about things about food Accommodations, etc.

It's just fantastic you know and certainly Above a notch above any other cruise line that you can go on. And we had taken slavery last time.

We were we were on the Mercury which was one of the two ships. We were looking at taking. And we just we just found the the the staff the staffing was great. We had a great time with the rooms and and we had somebody who helped us do stuff.

And it just it was just it was really really went well.

They treated so what we have a you know, dedicated group coordinator if the Room that we actually will be having our sessions our theological sessions in. All the all the chairs in this theater have a desktop that will fold out and come on top of you there for your writing.

And he has a digital screen. Dr. White has a digital screen. He can hook up into yeah in back of him. It's just fantastic. So this is a great trip if you've never been to Alaska before and if if you're in your mind Imagining how beautiful it can be believe me.

It's ten times better and Especially the time of year that we're going Going out of Seattle and the price that is available there on the website includes our bus transportation From Seattle to Vancouver.

It's about a three-hour bus ride. It's beautiful through the mountains and so forth. It also includes your your bus ride from the hotel To excuse me from the airport to the hotel and so forth and then back to the to the airport.

So we want to try to take care of you the whole way. To you. So there's nothing that you really have to worry about. You're really in. Dr. White's hand.

Now we need to mention someone's asking in the channel what what is the topic? One of the things that I sort of emphasized when we were first talking about this was I. Just that day. I was I was just as I frequently on these days sort of tired of controversy.

So.

So what are we going to be talking about?

Well, what dr. White told me then that we were that's me. By the way, we're sort of talking to each other.

Okay, let's not do that. Let's not do the who is the presidential candidate. I was referred to himself in the third person.

Yes, well what what James had decided a few weeks ago, which he has you know, it's at his liberty to change. Is a passion for purity glorifying God as saints and the topics will be including hating sin loving holiness.

Resisting the pressure of the world living in a holy fashion Christ is creating a holy people's elves for good deeds and keeping our worship pure. That will be the focus of this year's cruise. There will also be of course we have now gotten in the tradition of holding a conference ahead of time.

There will be a conference the day before as well in Seattle and we haven't yet determined that topic.

But that'll be thrown in but no but but no debates. No, no, and not okay. It's not that I'm doing.

Okay.

Sorry, that was part of it right there. Well Colin Smith is Colin Smith is going to debate an Aussie on the proper. The proper. Now we say it right now. We say it but it's gonna be that. Yeah, okay.

Well, it actually is it's gonna be a good forum for us to to to have a lot of folks. You know CES is based out there as well. Right to have an excellent conference the day before folks all that's going to be included in your price.

Something you don't want to miss the opportunity to be with dr. White beginners teaching for an entire week. Also, Steve camp will be going with us again this year, which is always fun to camp camp. Yes, sir I mean if just fantastic worship great fellowship Incredible food great ship great place to be you don't want to miss it now that the food was awesome.

I remember I see in the whales and. It was just the inside passage was just incredible the the glacier, of course.

Just all of it. Oh, you know. And Mendenhall Glacier would. Oh, that's right. You didn't get off the ship.

Yes, however, I will now tell my story about our last trip to Alaska because you see The the the Mercury is a beautiful ship and there was this place out front. That was the darkest place on the ship and I I heard I heard all of it all about.

I heard some of the staff people saying that tonight After dinner was going to be the best night for the possibility of seeing the Northern Lights the Aurora Borealis. And so while everyone else, I mean we're talking everyone else on this ship because I was alone.

Absolutely. Thanks for calm positively Alone on the front of the ship in the best place to be watching for 40 five minutes, I watched The The Aurora Borealis and it was absolutely positively glorious.

It was Just incredible. I mean it was a it was truly a religious experience. Bar. None. Thanks for calling me, but and I couldn't leave. I couldn't leave to go call people who were at the show.

Or.

Sleeping somewhere be because I. When did I know it was gonna end? I didn't didn't know and so. It was just it was just one of the greatest experiences in my life to be out there and it was just beautiful.

And of course, we can't promise that Obviously, even though it's run the same time the year as we did that Before but it was just absolutely positively awesome. It was.

Just changed changed my life. Well, I'm glad you had that experience.

In fact, who was it that told me who was it that told me about? Oh, wait a minute Mike. Wasn't it you that told me that that was a possibility for that night?

Oh, yeah. Oh and and where were you at that time? Well considering I had to get up before everybody else Mike.

Where were you at that time? I was sleeping you were sleeping. So you at you wanted me to call you and wake you up while you were sleeping.

Is that what you're saying? I would have been up there in our case. I would have been up there so quick. That's one thing that I definitely want to see. Hopefully we will get the opportunity to see that this year and folks.

You know if this is something that you want to do, we're giving you a year ahead of time to think about this. That's plenty of time to plan and to kind of get things together. Something you don't want to miss.

There are special savings for folks that have cruised with us before and that's if you sign up before November 1st. And you have or you are past cruiser with Alpha and Omega. Then there's $20 off per person for signing up ahead of time.

Okay, cool. Why don't you go ahead and throw that in and excellent? Thank you for having me on.

Oh, and how do they get to our page? Oh you go to?

Www .aomin .org.

Also, it's already on ours. It's on our. I thought it was. They'd have to go to Sovereign Cruises.

No, we are already linked up and ready to go. You can take the virtual tour. It's just gorgeous. So do that if you can and this is Unical Man.

See you later Unical Man. Someday being careful. I'll tell the story about where you got your name. So that'd be really bad. Well, I appreciate that and I'm definitely looking forward to.

To the.

It's just beautiful. I remember at one point When we were going through the inside passage, there was a and actually I've been up there twice. I actually took the Veen Dom or Volendam. What was I on the Volendam?

I think it's one of them anyways. I took the same route about a year later and There is a there's a period of time when you are in a fairly narrow passage and everything's just so green on both sides of you.

It is just it is hard to describe how especially if you live in like, Arizona, oh good grief. Talk about being like you're on a completely different planet. Totally different. I know this is we were flying in last time.

I landed last week and I looked out the window there's daytime. It's like wow, it's brown out there. Where'd all the green stuff go so. Anyway, that's what's going on there. A couple things I Am NOT going to be commenting Today on the cyphered situation and I am as you can see slowly working on my response and We'll continue posting that the behind-the-scenes chatter and emails and things like that.

An education for this this apologist. I can guarantee you that Sometimes encouraging sometimes just shatteringly discouraging. But you know what? God wasn't taken by surprise by any of this just because I was and Obviously I hopefully a little bit down The road when When I can when that some of this has passed and There's some conclusions to some things.

I will share some some further thoughts that have been prompted by this whole thing, but Just this incredible situation. The the reason I sort of came running in eight minutes before the program started.

Unlike Laura Ingram who comes in five minutes after the program starts. But the reason I almost totally spaced this. Was I went over went home? And I went home to talk to my daughter now. My my daughter has been in Christian schools since sixth grade and for a number of reasons.

She's in a in a regular school this year. One of the main reasons is she wanted to be able to share her face. She wanted to be able to to do what I did. I went through that school system, and I defended my faith and I Had opportunity I was class valedictorian.

So I had opportunity of giving witness to my faith in my valedictorian speech and I was known as Billy Graham white in my high school because I carried a Bible around with me and so on and so forth and So she's actually been enjoying.

The school.

Has been able to meet lots of folks has met about the only Christian on the staff already and Big long story short she told me when sometimes we'll just go to lunch together a late lunch after I pick her up from school and and we went to Our favorite Mexican restaurants and and just talk as a parent I find it to be very neat to talk with my my kids.

Especially now they're 18 and 15 and and it's just so neat to talk with with you know little adults that have have come up in your own house, so what a what a concept and She was telling me about an assignment that she had gotten in her AP English class advanced placement English class to write a letter to President Bush and The first thing I remember of it was she she mentioned to me that the teacher had said now.

The the key here is is in your presentation you are you are to be passionate in your presentation. In fact, you are to hit the podium at least three times in your presentation if you don't. Then you you are you're not to get full credit for the assignment, but I thought that was interesting.

And so then she started telling me about the subject and they had like a gay marriage pro or against gun control pro or against stem cell research pro or against and Summer chose to write her letter to President Bush on the subject of stem cell research.

And I thought that was interesting. It would have been a whole lot easier to do honestly to do gun control because she would have had a lot more information available to her immediately, but She didn't she she went for that subject and partly because she likes to learn about new things that's just the way she is and so she wrote out her her rough draft and the reason I could see all this is because Unfortunately, our home printer is on the fritz.

And so I would have to pull and she'd have to tell me what she needed print I have to pull it through the network and print out over here and So I was seeing this stuff as it was going on and and So right before I went to Canada last week I printed out the the final draft of this letter to President Bush and she presented it on Friday and I've read it since then and it's a it's a humdinger.

It is a it's a bell ringer and It is very straightforward and it is it is very forcefully argued and So I came home from From Canada on Sunday and Sunday afternoon over lunch. She filled me on what happened.

She received a standing ovation From her class even from the people who wrote against her position. She received a standing ovation my daughter is is a little actress and she can speak and she can do things like that and just standing ovation, however not from the teacher and She noticed that even though the teacher applauded for the pro-gay marriage letter not for not for summers and So as the class was leaving they were to put their Letters in envelopes to be sent to President Bush, but the teacher said summer don't don't steal your envelope and could you could you stay after and so as the class is leaving summer says Is there something wrong and in front of other students she said I I don't think he wrote that and So a number of the other people in the class were upset by that.

And of course summer was as well. And so the teacher said I want to see the documentation you used. No one else and and by the way, hers was three times longer than many others in the in the class. And I want to see the documentation you used so she was upset the whole day, of course to be accused of this.

And.

So I said, well, you know what will will provide it. So.

We.

Went went through she printed out ten pages of material and Took it on on Monday and She turned it in and didn't. Teacher really didn't say anything. She said you owe me something summer gave it to her didn't say anymore.

Tuesday comes along. No comments, so yesterday she asks and She's she says am I gonna get credit for for my letter? We get credit for the for what you wrote. I Haven't looked at yet, but you'll get credit for what you wrote.

Hmm, so last night I wrote a letter and I Pointed out that I had taken summer's letter as soon as the allegation of plagiarism had been made and I had. I'm a teacher and so I know how to look for stuff like this.

I took a number of half a dozen of you need of the unique phrases in Summer's letter and I hit web crawler with them. And if you know anything about web crawler comm it searches Google and Yahoo and a number of other different search engines and.

I.

Nothing came back there. There was there was. Nothing whatsoever on the web that had this material in it. It was unique. And so I wrote a note. I wrote a letter and sent it with summer this morning. And I said that maybe it might be helpful to you to understand some of the background.

Summer has expressed to me that especially at the beginning of the year when when students were filling stuff out. She was shocked at the fact that she is in a very small minority and that very small minority our students have two parents.

Two parents are actually living with that are actually their parents. The vast majority of of her her classmates are living with either one parent no parent or their parents or someplace else or things like that and to have actually both of your birth parents married and living with them is a very small minority and.

So I explained to the teacher that my wife and I have been married for 22 years. Summer joined us in celebrating my grand my parents 50th wedding anniversary just the last summer and I said my daughter also takes after me a good deal, and I am an author.

I have written or contributed to more than 20 books numerous articles and journals chapters and so on and so forth.

I.

I've been a professor for quite some time. I gave her my my Background and those things and my daughter has been a part. She's been on those cruises for example in fact Michael tell you that just last on our last cruise There was one evening where there was a discussion of kids in church and Pulling kids out and having kids church and things like that and one of the pastors on the cruise.

And I'm you know this is gonna sound like I'm patting myself in the back. But I'm just giving this as background information. And I was very very proud of this and very very pleased very very thankful the Lord, but one of the pastors on the cruise Summer wasn't there at that time she had left early this is one of the theology talks late at night, but but Josh was still there my 18 year old son and One of the pastors on the cruise and said it's very evident that At dr. White's church.

They do not separate the kids from the adults. Because you can engage his children in Adult conversations, and they can talk to you as adults, and it's true. We don't do that. We've never had children's church.

Our children interact with all of the adults and hence they know what it is to be a mature adult Christian and how to speak like one and act like one and So I I sent I sent this letter in and she gave it to the teacher in a fourth hour Over lunch.

This evidently was read not overly well but I did ask by the way in the letter of what other students had likewise had this examination made of their material and if any other students had their letters not sent to President Bush and So summer comes home I went home just before the program started well, you know about 40 minutes for the program started and Summer shows me her letter.

No credit. She's completely failed the assignment and She is the reason being that this was all someone else's opinion all someone else's opinion and She admitted that no one else had had their their letters looked at and So I was one of the reasons I was running in late is that I was on the phone of course with the administration Of the school setting up an appointment for Monday and I was also talking with summer about what it is to take up your cross and To face this kind of situation because obviously she's not the only one facing this kind of thing in our land today.

It's pretty obvious to me why this is going on and Obviously, I would love to ask the administration to look at the other letters. And compare them with summers and they would see what's really going on the the issue here was what she said and how she said it and so we have some political correctness going on here and but we all face that the the society as a whole places that pressure upon us and So that's what we were.

That's what we were dealing with. And so It's it's gonna be interesting. And as I said to her we will do everything in our power I believe as Christians that when we are given the freedoms to do What we can to bring about righteousness that we do it that we vote that we get involved in that way.

But when it comes down to the point where and you know, the administration could say, you know, what just not gonna We're gonna we're gonna back her up. Well, you know what Justice will be done a Justice will be done.

Maybe not in our lives, but justice will be done and that's why the psalmist talks so much about the fact that God's throne is based upon justice and Justice will be done if not in this life in eternity but God will be justified and his actions will be vindicated and Our job is to do what's right before God and if there are times when this type of thing happens then well We do what we can to write those things.

But if we are unable to do so then we accept that from God's hand and knowing that we serve Risen Savior and I talked a little bit about what happens to people who believe in Christ and Muslim lands today and in comparison to that well This is this is small fries.

But well, you know, we all get to learn these things eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one. We we do have a phone call and I have some clips to play from our good old friend and Radio false teacher Harold camping, so we will be getting to your phone calls and to good old Harold.

But first we need to take a break and we'll be right back eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back right after this.

Today.

So many stars strong and true quickly fall away.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the new covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a omen org. That's www .a Oman Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified.

But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers. The doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself.

Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue. Justification the heart of the gospel with pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith.

David King the president of the Southern Baptist Conventions founders conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson. The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you Philip Johnson.

Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author. Dr. James White. Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m.

Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org.

And welcome back to the dividing line, let's go ahead and talk to Joseph about immediate theology. Hi Joseph.

I'm.

I'm here.

Okay.

Well, I'm out at Liberty University. And Anyway, I've been talking with one of my professors and one day he Just totally misrepresented reformed theology. And so I went to his office afterwards and talk with him about it, and he gave me a book by Sigurd Nolson.

Mm-hmm, right, right. And turns out like in Subsequent classes like he pretty much Just quotes everything out of this book. And you know, he said today he talked about the part about Ephesians 2 8 and 9 and.

How.

It's a relative pronoun Toto. It's you know, and Pisces faith is feminine. Uh-huh that and so he was like, yeah kind of undermines, you know. Some people's theology doesn't it? You know, and I mean, yeah, I was just wondering like what is a rebuttal for that?

Well, I addressed that in the potter's freedom and.

I was in there. Oh, yes.

Oh, yes, because that's very similar to what Norman Geisler said and in the potter's freedom I point out that there's actually nothing in the preceding phrase that is neuter. And no one says that the only antecedent of Tuta is faith.

Why would Tuta be neuter well because Tuta as a neuter demonstrative is very frequently used to refer to the entire Preceding phrase and so there's nothing in the preceding phrase that can be said to be of ourselves.

It's all the gift of God which would include the grace the salvation and the faith. There would be no way on the basis of the grammar to distinguish between them because there's nothing that's neuter in the preceding phrase.

It's wrapping up the entirety of the phrase. So it's it is very very common for these folks. Who generally don't spend a whole lot of time listening to what the other side is saying? To take that as the easy way out and to misrepresent the reform perspective by saying Oh, we'll see they think that faith is the only and they'll even quote Calvin.

This is what Geisler did. He quoted Calvin who likewise said that it's wrong to think that faith is the only antecedent. He wasn't denying that faith is a gift of God. He clearly taught it, but he likewise was fair enough the text of Scripture.