Elder Q&A

Bethlehem Bible Church

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May 18, 2014

00:00: Well, welcome to Bethlehem Bible Church. My name is Mike Ebendroth. Glad to see you tonight. Tonight's a little different than our normal service.
00:06: We're going to have some Q &A with the elders. I have a few of the questions that you have submitted, and I have a few other questions.
00:13: And the goal tonight is, of course, to learn more about our Lord, but also I want you to learn about the elders. What makes them tick?
00:20: Why do I like them? I, personally, why does Mike like them? Why should you like them?
00:25: Why should you continue to like them? So if I could have the elders come up, please. Tracy, if the mics can get turned on, red, purple, and yellow.
00:35: We'll just share those three, and then we'll wrap up at around seven or so.
00:40: We'll pray for Haley and Luke and have some refreshments as they're getting set up.
00:51: By the way, if you ever have a theological question, you can ask one of the elders.
00:57: You can send in a little card if you'd like. Talk to them on a
01:02: Sunday. I kind of like this. I'm standing up. I feel like I'm in charge now. All right.
01:09: Here's a question. This one is for Pradeep. What did
01:15: Elder Pradeep do for his doctorate? What did you get your doctorate in, and what's the best thing you learned?
01:23: So I picked Hinduism and a specific type of Hinduism to do an exchange.
01:31: What would a Christian exchange with an unbeliever look like? One that is respectful but uncompromising on the word so that we can help that person see what
01:40: God demands of him. So that was the thesis itself.
01:46: What I learned the most? The thing that I enjoyed the most was there is so much in Scripture, and even within Christendom, there are many who would disagree with us in terms of how we can rely on the
02:05: Scriptures while we do apologetics. And I think the exchanges I had with other
02:11: Christians in respectfully presenting how we can be biblical apologists was,
02:19: I think, what was most illuminating for me. Pradeep, to follow up on that, if you met a
02:27: Hindu today and you were friends and you wanted to remain friends but you were concerned for them, what would you walk through?
02:33: Is there kind of a template that you would have for evangelism? What would you say to your friend who believed in one of the 330 million gods in India, for instance?
02:43: So the first thing I would like to make it very clear is I like to be very friendly.
02:49: The first Peter 3 .15, the mandate for apologetics, talks about be ready to give a reason for why you believe what you believe.
02:58: And at the same time, I want to do it with respectfulness and gentleness. So when I speak to this person,
03:03: I would first make it very clear that where I stand, what does the Bible say about God?
03:09: What is the source of authority for us, which is the Scriptures? And I would succinctly present the gospel because it's quite likely most unbelievers don't know what it is.
03:21: So who is God? What is the nature of man? Because the Hindus do not understand that we are created by God and we have been given one life.
03:30: And we are accountable at the end of this life to this God. So they need to understand that there is no endless cycles, but there is only one.
03:38: It is appointed for man to die once and after this, the judgment. And so they are in a very grave danger, according to the
03:44: Bible. And then show the uniqueness of Jesus. Jesus is not one among the many gods, but he is the only
03:50: God who was incarnate on Earth. And that he is the only hope that they have, that they need to trust in him.
03:58: And I wouldn't mind hearing from them, but I would like to, when they try to present what they say, to always respond from the
04:05: Scriptures what they believe is false. And what if they were to say to you, well, that's good for you, but it's not good for me?
04:16: I would say, you know, you are free to believe what you want, but there is only one truth. If what the
04:22: Bible says is true and I believe it is true, it is not on the basis of what you believe, but on the basis of the true
04:29: God that you will be judged. And it's my love for you that I want you to know what the truth is. And I think one of the things most people get scared when you talk is that somehow
04:38: I'm going to try to twist their arm to become a believer. Try to make it very clear. I have no power to change your mind or change your heart.
04:46: Only God can do that. But what I believe is life or death, and it is important for you to know what this is.
04:54: And I tell them, I pray for you that God would do that work in your life. But you are responsible to him, whether you like it or not.
05:02: Thank you, Doctor. Second question we received.
05:10: Whose sin was worse, Adam's or Eve's? Pastor Steve, let's hear from you, please.
05:19: Whose sin was worse, Adam's or Eve's? Well, I'm going to have to go with Adam.
05:29: Just because I have to go home and live with my wife. Could you please tell us your biblical rationale for said question?
05:43: Well, let's see. I mean, the Lord clearly charged
05:48: Adam in the garden, you know, with control of the garden.
05:55: He was one given the commands. And then as you preached here a few weeks ago, it's interesting because even while Satan was being deceived, or while Satan was deceiving
06:07: Eve, Adam was standing right by with his mouth shut, doing nothing to help her, to refute
06:17: Satan or to say, no, that's not what God said. And we see over and over again,
06:24: I mean, we see very few points where the sin of Eve is kind of referred to.
06:29: I mean, it's referred to in terms of women not teaching. But we see the consequence of Adam's sin.
06:36: Maybe I'm a little too close to that one. The results of Adam's sin mentioned frequently, and rightly so, because his sin was worse.
06:46: I mean, it impacts everybody. The sin of Eve, I think it only impacts half the human race.
06:53: So if we're going to go quantitatively or qualitatively, I vote for Adam. Yeah, 1
06:59: Timothy 2 says, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
07:07: Yeah, he wasn't deceived. He was just dumb, sitting there not doing it. Can I say that? I did. He's just standing there.
07:14: He wasn't fooled. She was fooled. But the point is, he didn't, well, he didn't defend his wife.
07:19: Let's put it that way. And he didn't defend, more importantly, God. Because it was God that Satan was ultimately casting aspersions upon.
07:27: And Eve joined right in with him. Yeah, cursory reading of the passage, you might think she was more responsible and she was deceived.
07:36: But he wasn't deceived and still went along. And he was the federal head. He was the representative for all mankind.
07:42: I think he knew what was riding on his shoulders and still did not stand up for God's Word. I mean, he was the proverbial cleanup hitter, as it were, who watched the 3 -2 pitch go right down the middle.
07:54: He did nothing. He stood by and therefore bears the greater responsibility. And, you know, who was it who was made first?
08:03: Adam, and then Eve was taken from his form from his rib. And so he had responsibility over her to protect her, to really nurture her.
08:13: And he just whiffed. All right. Question three for Harrington, please.
08:21: Why do you think there's so much talk these days regarding the benefits of our salvation versus the benefactor?
08:29: Lots of discussion on what we receive almost as ultimate over who
08:34: God is, the Son. Well, it's because even though it's the benefits of salvation, which soteriology is so vital and important, but it's more on the benefits towards us rather than the benefactor,
08:52: Christ, because that's still a man -centered approach to soteriology, the doctrine of salvation.
08:58: So it's what can I get out of it? What are the benefits for me rather than the focus being
09:04: God -centered, Christ -centered? Soteriology from the Greek word soteria comes from the
09:11: Savior, Christ himself, meaning sotira. He's the Savior. So the focus in Scripture always has to be on Christ himself, even in salvation.
09:21: Do we get benefits? Of course we do. But it's a matter of what we focus on. And I think the reason that is we focus so much today on the benefits is because it's man -centered, not
09:31: Christ -centered. Can I add to that? Please. And one of the things I agree on that, too,
09:36: Harrington, is oftentimes we'll also hear people evangelize to others, saying here is the benefit that you get for receiving
09:43: Christ, right, X, Y, Z, but they don't emphasize Christ himself and the act that was done on Christ.
09:49: I think oftentimes that's just what people have in mind is this is what
09:54: I get when they're immature and not in the Word and understanding rather than how did they get it.
10:01: And certainly the benefits of justification and salvation are many, and forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God and a purpose for your life and maybe friendships mended and lots of things like that.
10:13: But Romans 1, when Paul talks about the gospel of God, he says concerning his
10:19: Son. And so the gospel is mainly about the Son, Jesus, and what he's done. Can I just add to that, too?
10:26: I'd say that there's little mention about the cost of discipleship. Jesus said that it would cost you everything if you wanted to take up your cross,
10:33: Luke 9 .23, that you should basically refuse, as MacArthur says, as he's interpreting that, refuse to identify with your former self, your former life.
10:42: The gospel isn't presented that way because if you set the bar too high, then people don't want it.
10:48: And if instead we just stress the benefits, then it sounds like, you know. So I think it's kind of a sales presentation rather than a biblical gospel presentation.
11:04: Scott, this one is more out of left field, but I think it'd be interesting. This is going to be an easy one, but it's how you craft it.
11:15: What's your favorite date with your wife? Favorite date?
11:20: And I'd like to have some biblical backup, too, for that. Ice cream wasn't invented in biblical times that I'm aware of, but favorite date.
11:31: You know, I think it's really just a time to get away amongst the two of us more than anything else.
11:38: We don't get a lot of that, so it is nice when we have some time aside.
11:44: It's nice to have the Rathbuns be able to watch our daughter at times, so we have the flexibility there.
11:50: But it is really just a time where even we can sit and talk amongst ourselves.
11:55: I think it's so easy to get involved in the day -to -day of life and not have a lot of time and being able to sit down even at a meal, even at our own table, and be able to just have a good conversation amongst ourselves.
12:13: What are we doing? What's going on in life? And some of those things because, again, it's so easy to fall into that routine.
12:19: So I think it's that and kind of evaluating where we are again.
12:27: And I'm trying to think. It is out of the left field, so we weren't prepped for any of these.
12:35: How is your health? And I don't ask you because of your last answer.
12:42: How is my mental health? How is your physical health because I know you struggle?
12:48: It's up and down still. So there are times where this has been a better year than in the past.
12:55: My work, I've changed jobs now about almost a year coming up now, and it's taken a lot more out of me just health -wise too, just time -wise.
13:05: So that's been a little bit tough. But we are trying to schedule some time, my wife and I, to be able to get away.
13:12: We have our 24th anniversary coming up here very soon, so we're looking to take some time there.
13:19: But health -wise, at this point, I'm living with it because I just know there's a lot more people worse off than I am.
13:27: I mean, I can deal with it. It's a little hard on the family more than myself because I'm resting a lot or I don't have the energy to do a lot of things that I've done in the past.
13:41: But with all the doctor's tests and everything else, nothing's come up. So I'm just grateful that I have a loving wife who continues to love me even in those times of hardship because I know it's not easy on her either.
13:55: Thank you. Let's ask the other guys too. Favorite dates with your wife? I'd like to know this.
14:02: Shorter answers in English, not Greek. You notice that he loves to do that.
14:09: He loves to throw out these Greek words with perfect pronunciation. He knows I pronounce every
14:15: Greek word like I'm speaking bad Spanish. Let's see.
14:20: Favorite date with my wife? Going to a striper concert? No. Recently that happened.
14:28: For us to just be able to go out to dinner together because with three little ones, well, now with three, one of them being really little, we can't have that time alone where, you know, it's the focuses on making sure the kids are all set for the dinner time and all that.
14:41: So a friend of ours actually recently said, not from this church, a Christian friend of ours came and she watched the kids and got us a group on to go out to dinner.
14:52: And that was the best thing. And we took our time. And the waiter, we got engaging with the waiter, and he has three kids.
14:58: He says, I understand. Take your time. I said, we plan on taking our time. And he says, take the long route home.
15:03: And my wife says, he always does. That was a good way to finish the date. No. But, yeah, being able to just sit down together to go out to dinner together.
15:13: We can't do movies much, but, you know, recently when I had a late shift at work, got a
15:18: Redbox movie. So I got home, and my wife's like, oh, I'm too tired. It was a long day with the kids. I said, you want to sit and watch with me?
15:25: She says, no, I'm too tired. Okay. Well, she was finishing folding some clothes, and she got a glimpse of the movie. And then from standing folding clothes, she went to a sit -down position to a reclining position.
15:35: And I said to her, I guess you're watching the movie with me, aren't you? So just being able to do that kind of stuff alone without the children, that's a great date for us.
15:44: I think the ideal date, you know, it used to be easy for me, because in California where it was warm most of the time, my wife wanted a chocolate chip malt and a corndog from Tasty Freeze.
15:56: So that was pretty simple, you know. I think that corndogs were 79 cents. Life was easy.
16:02: But now I think the perfect date for her is probably when all the grandkids get dropped off at our house, and that's not really a date.
16:10: But we just like to go out, you know, for dinner, and if there's a decent movie to be seen, then that.
16:17: But usually we don't get to do all that in one go, so it's either one or the other. As you know, in my culture, dates are, you know, alien.
16:31: But I'm very thankful for Pastor Mike, and I know Pastor Dave used to encourage me on this, too.
16:39: And recently, Awana. They've been great. I mean, our children love
16:46: Awana, and what helps me is I can get to take my wife out somewhere. And we've been going to the brown rice,
16:53: I think, the Thai place, and it's nice when you don't have anything else in your mind other than just staring at your wife.
17:01: So I'm very thankful for that. But the most recent one, Saturday morning, my wife and I got to get up early.
17:06: My mother -in -law came to look after the children. We got out to do some work, and very free.
17:15: Early in the morning, nothing like it. End of the day, I'm just tired. Dinners, but yeah. All right, good.
17:22: All right, next question. Let's start with Harrington, please. What doctrine was the most difficult for you to accept when you first learned of it?
17:32: And how did you process it? Well, coming from Dallas Seminary, I didn't know how to spell tulip.
17:48: I spelled it T -U -I -P. So what helped me is
17:55: I believe that I got into that discussion recently today with my mother, actually, over lunch, that Jesus died for the whole world.
18:07: She made a comment, Jesus' plan was to die for the whole world. I said, well, will everyone get to heaven?
18:13: No, she says, there's some people in hell now. I said, so he must be pretty frustrated because he didn't fulfill his plan.
18:19: And that was an issue for me coming out of Dallas. So what helped me was through my systematic study of scripture when
18:24: I became a pastor in 2001. And I started pastoring and preaching systematically through the scriptures.
18:30: And also, a lot of Pastor MacArthur's books were really helpful in helping me see
18:39: God opening my eyes to the truth of limited atonement, that Christ came specifically to die for his bride.
18:50: I've probably mentioned this one before. But, I mean, for me, the hardest thing, because my background in the
18:55: Mormon church, the hardest thing for me was the Trinity. But I really think once I was saved,
19:02: I don't think it was hard for me to accept the biblical truth of, well, of virtually any doctrine, because I was at a good church where the
19:12: Bible was taught and sound doctrine was maintained and held high.
19:18: And so I'd hear it and it wasn't like I had anything except for a false system to compare it to.
19:24: So I'd hear the truth and go, I think that's right. And so it was actually not that difficult, not because of me, but because God made a new me.
19:34: So the new me could hear those things and go, that is right. That is what the scripture says. Steve, do you think that if people understand the deity of Christ, they'll finally, that's the gateway to understand the
19:46: Trinity? If so, why? I think that is the gateway, because once you understand that Jesus, once you understand that he's the second person of the
19:57: Trinity, that he always existed, that makes everything else kind of fall into place.
20:05: At that point, you either become a Trinitarian or you dismiss the Holy Spirit.
20:10: But if you read what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit, then you have to become a
20:16: Trinitarian, because it definitely says that he is God. It definitely says that he chooses, that he can be grieved.
20:23: And so you read those things and you go, okay, the Holy Spirit's a person. Jesus always existed.
20:30: You know, he's always God. And so ultimately you have to reconcile all these different truths in your mind.
20:37: The Bible says the Father's God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God. There's only one God, thus the
20:43: Trinity. For me, I stumbled on tea in Tulip.
20:51: So until I came to BBC, I had never heard about the sovereignty of God. I got saved, Armenian, and I've been a
20:58: Christian for a long time but with not much teaching. And I come here and Pastor Mike is preaching and I'd say, you know, everything is good except that thing about sovereignty.
21:08: And I just couldn't get election at all. And there were a couple of times I was so worked up.
21:14: And so if there's anyone here still struggling with it, this is a good story. Total depravity.
21:19: T for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement,
21:26: I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. I did have P, though. I think
21:31: Armenians like that. Not just because my name begins with that letter. For five whole years after I came to BBC, which is 98, 99,
21:43: I'd love everything. But when it came to this doctrine, I'd say, oh, that scripture says that.
21:48: But something else would say something else. I would just not want to give it up. And it took me a while to realize how my heart was so just so caught up in myself, my understanding of justice and equity, the way
22:01: I thought God must rule. And then Pastor Mike was very patient with me.
22:07: And the Holy Spirit didn't let go of me. And at one point,
22:12: I don't know what sermon it was. It just suddenly opened up. It just clicked.
22:19: And then I could just suddenly see all the scriptures fall into place. And since then, I've just been rejoicing.
22:25: It's not about me. It's not about my work. It is about God and his work. And, I mean, as you know, we don't believe in second blessings.
22:32: But it's just been amazing since then. Your life is just joyous because you trust in a
22:37: God who sovereignly rules the world. So I've been super blessed. My parents, I brought them to a conference with Lawson.
22:44: And he was preaching through John. And I was thinking, I'm going to be in big trouble on the way back. And they said, it's all good.
22:52: They just heard it once. And they heard it. And so the Lord can take some stubborn guys like me.
22:59: He just gives me a lot of rope and then saves me. But that was the hardest one for me. Pradeep, can you give some advice to those in the congregation who maybe they're hearing some things for the first time from the pulpit, maybe difficult things.
23:13: They still are members. They still want to attend. But when I happen to say X, Y, and Z, it just kind of sets them off.
23:20: And how would you counsel them? Yeah, I think the biggest thing to remember is that we are under God's word.
23:30: We all come in with an idea of what God's word means. And if you're honest, you'd say,
23:36: I'm not omniscient. None of us here is the sole provider of truth.
23:43: And we begin that way. I began that way by thinking I know everything the Bible has to say. And as the word is preached, some of those things that we disagree on are going to grate on us, and we're not going to like it.
23:53: But I think what we need to do is read the word. First, understand what the preacher is saying. How does it come out of the text?
24:00: And if I don't like it, and if I see other texts, study it more. Come and talk to the elders if you'd like, or you can talk to the other members.
24:08: But pray, and if it's something you don't like, the Spirit of God will never let you go.
24:14: But patiently study the word. And I think you will… It took me five years, but I don't regret it.
24:21: Because I think when the word just becomes… And I think that study during that time, I know Pastor Mike gave me a lot of material.
24:28: Me and Sunita, I think we were out in one of the beaches one day. We just spent the whole five hours,
24:34: I think, just struggling with some of those doctrines because we wanted to know what it was. And I think as you dig into the word, the
24:40: Spirit of God will illumine your hearts and minds. So that's kind of like an Indian version of a date. Struggling at the beach for five hours together.
24:48: Now, when you first started attending, the pulpit was on that side, and you used to sit about right here.
24:55: Tell the congregation how many times you almost left because you were mad at something being said, but you stayed.
25:02: I think it was two or three times. And I remember even talking to Pastor Mike in the parking,
25:08: I think walking outside. I'm just struggling with this, and he was very gracious to me. He said, you know, study the word. And the counsel
25:14: I always got was it's the word that is important. It's not what eyes teach or you need to get back to the word.
25:20: And I got good material, and I'm thankful to God. I'm really thankful to a pastor for it.
25:26: I mean, if I was the pastor, I think I would have been five years is a long time. But he's been patient, and we're thankful to the
25:34: Lord who's patient. So now that that issue is settled for you, no more five -hour dates with Sunita, right? That was when we didn't have children.
25:45: All right. Scott, what doctrine was the most difficult for you to accept when you first heard of it and learned of it?
25:52: So similar to Pradeep's, I would think. I grew up in a Catholic background initially, more of just a traditional.
26:02: We attended on Sundays, really didn't learn anything. And then by the grace of God, I attended a
26:09: Baptist church, and it was very Arminian. Again, I didn't know any of the differences between doctrines of grace and some of the others.
26:17: It was my own ignorance of the scriptures. And, you know, got saved in a church that was very Arminian -focused.
26:23: I came just as I was. And, sorry. But it was, you know,
26:29: God was gracious. He saved me. And, you know, then coming to a church that was more focused on the sovereignty of God and the sovereignty of God around salvation was very tough for me to initially grasp.
26:42: And I think, you know, the study of scriptures, again, most of what I was being fed was milk and not doing my own study.
26:48: It was more of a study that someone else would do, right? And we would just, it was whatever was regurgitated from the scriptures on the pulpit rather than my own study of the scriptures.
26:59: Studying, you know, looking at what the scriptures say around election, reading various books, Pink and some of the others that were more reform -based and looking at these various doctrines, listening a lot to John MacArthur, reading a lot from John MacArthur, and then really just looking at what the scripture says.
27:15: It was clear. But I think I wanted to suppress it because I wanted to still be in control, right?
27:20: It was more of a pride issue at that point. And I didn't want God to be, I don't know if it was that I didn't want him to get credit for my salvation, but it had never been really shown to me until it was opened up and I could see in the scriptures that God truly is the one who saves.
27:37: And as Pradeep had said before, that's the most freeing thing you can ever hear in your life is how
27:42: God, you know, once he's done something, it's not something he takes back. And, you know, that was hard.
27:49: I struggled with it and now I embrace it and love it. All right, guys.
27:56: Tell me what your favorite theological word is and then give me a Bible verse to explain that.
28:03: So, Harry, what's your favorite theological word? English word, that is. All right, let's have
28:20: Steve go first. Well, I just talked about this word Wednesday night at the
28:25: Awana banquet, so I was more than ready for this. It's Romans 3 and the word is propitiation.
28:34: And I like that because in one word, we kind of have the summary of the gospel and you say, how's that?
28:41: Propitiation means the wrath of God has been satisfied. It's the satisfaction of the wrath of God.
28:48: And, you know, like I said, Wednesday night, why would God be mad? Well, you have to answer the sin issue because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God and it's all right here in this passage in Romans 3.
29:00: And then, you know, how was it satisfied? How was the wrath of God satisfied?
29:05: Well, he put Jesus Christ forward as a propitiation. That is to be the satisfaction. Jesus Christ lived that life, the perfect life, died on the cross in our place, and then he was raised from the dead on the third day.
29:21: So how do we know the wrath of God is satisfied? Because he raised him from the dead. He declared his sacrifice efficacious, that it had done what it had been purposed to do, that is to redeem the souls of all those who would believe in the
29:38: Lord Jesus Christ. And so there, I'm just like, this is a great word. In fact, I want to do a radio show about it.
29:44: It's an awesome word. It's one of the best words in the Bible. I just think, propitiation. You should love that word.
29:52: So. Funny story.
30:05: That was almost the one I picked, but I think the one I'm going to pick, we were coming, we're fairly new to the, but I'm not picking that one, so.
30:11: It's number two. We were coming to church one Sunday. This was when we were fairly new, about three or four years ago, and I was discipling somebody, and the man
30:19: I was discipling, we were covering imputation. That's my word. And Pastor Mike was going through First Corinthians.
30:25: So you see, I'm pulling into the drive when I tell my wife, so, you know, AM service,
30:31: First Corinthians, wherever it was, PM, the three imputations. And I look at my wife and I said, and this is early on, we weren't,
30:37: I don't think even I was an elder, members here were just coming. I said, he can't do imputations up for a PM service.
30:43: That's an AM message. Well, he switched it. I didn't know that. He switched it that morning,
30:48: Pastor Mike did. I didn't tell him that. And so I said to my wife, there it is. This is our church. I put out the fleece.
30:54: I said, if he switches, this is a sign. Good decision making.
31:02: But that would be my word because, as I was telling the man I was helping, discipling, the fact that we are, that Adam's sin is credited to us.
31:11: He couldn't understand that Adam's sin is credited to us, imputed to our account. Why should that be?
31:17: It's not fair. I said, I'll tell you something that's not, that's more or less fair. My sin being imputed to Christ's account.
31:25: I'll tell you even something that's more or less, less fair than that, that Christ's perfect righteousness would be credited to me.
31:34: So don't talk to me about fair imputation. The term
31:39: I have, this is the first term it came to my mind too. And, of course,
31:46: I heard that through Catherine from Havana. So it's recent in my mind. But I'm going to pick a term that is not as priority -wise as high.
31:55: I think both of what you heard are what should be foremost in our minds. But the one that really every time just brings me to tears is in Philippians 2 when it talks about Jesus.
32:05: I mean, there is a term that is misinterpreted, kenosis. But I want to just use a couple of words from the scriptures where it says
32:13: Jesus humbled himself. If you don't mind, can I just take a few words to these? I'll read the verses here.
32:20: And here Paul is instructing. He says, don't do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility.
32:25: And that's what it's all about. Count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests but also to the interests of others.
32:35: And then he says, have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus. And then he describes
32:41: Christ Jesus who though he was in the form of God, and we know Jesus is
32:46: God, and just the glory and the divine attributes of Jesus Christ, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.
32:54: How much that he deserves it while I strive for it, strive for things that are not my own.
33:01: But Jesus made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man.
33:06: When I think of the incarnation, that just blows my mind. Why would God do that? And then being formed in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, which brings you to the atonement and the substitution and the imputation, even death on a cross.
33:26: And then it goes on to talk about the glory. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him a name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is
33:39: Lord to the glory of God, the Father, that Jesus would humble himself, come down, die and take my sin and die in my place and give me his righteousness is something
33:49: I think we will be singing for all eternity. So you would have thought that we actually practiced all this, but we didn't.
33:59: Mine falls right after yours, in essence, and it's reconciliation. And it is from what
34:05: Christ has done, we now can be reconciled to God. So after we had our justification and as we've worked through and we see
34:13: Christ humbling himself and going to the cross and dying on our behalf, knowing how wretched we are as individuals, and yet we can be reconciled with God where we do not have his wrath cast upon us.
34:28: So reconciliation is my word. All right.
34:37: We're going to just wrap things up. We've got about 10 minutes to go. If you could have three hours to talk to one theologian, they can't be a
34:46: Bible, somebody in the Bible. Three hours to talk to one theologian, living or dead, who would it be and why?
34:54: Pastor Steve. Well, I would want to talk to John Calvin.
35:05: And the reason I would want to talk to him initially, I'd probably be kind of a smart aleck, but I'd like to know if he was a
35:10: Calvinist. I'd also like to talk to him about baptism and some other things.
35:23: I mean, just theological questions and find out, you know, why he did some of the things that he did, why he didn't do some things that I would like him to have done, like I'll never forget the debate that R .C.
35:38: Sproul and MacArthur had over infant baptism. And MacArthur basically challenged R .C. Sproul that night to complete the
35:45: Reformation, to leave Roman Catholicism behind and stop baptizing babies because there's no biblical warrant for it.
35:52: So, you know, I would just say, you know, Mr. Calvin, sir, doctor, whatever title, honorific,
36:00: Lord Calvin, you know, why?
36:06: Was there any particular reason why you didn't deal with that? And, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
36:11: And, you know, that kind of thing. So I would just like to pick his brain and get some ideas from him about things that he didn't do or things that he did that,
36:22: I mean, I'd like to walk through the whole Cervetus thing maybe with him, but just to kind of understand from his perspective exactly what was going on.
36:29: So I think it would be great to be able to talk to him for three hours, although that could be necromancy and I'd rather not do that. See what
36:37: I have to live with every day? Pradeep? Actually, this is someone
36:44: I – Calvin would be first on my list, but I'll pick another one. I would like to talk to John Frame.
36:51: He's still alive. I probably can. I probably should write to him and see if he would talk to me. The reason
36:56: I want to talk – I'd like to talk to him is he's one of those men that I love because he's dealing with apologetics, world views, philosophical subjects, but he is uncompromising and just getting back to the word in a field where it is just so filled with all these philosophical concepts and abstract thought.
37:18: He just brings the word fully right back in. He's a theologian who's doing philosophy and unashamed of it.
37:24: I really like the way he does things. Scott? I guess two.
37:32: I mean, I would do a contemporary and a non -contemporary, but I would say Jonathan Edwards from his passion and his zeal for the lost and very similarly from a more contemporary,
37:44: I'd say Steve Lawson, just from his preaching and, again, his ability to weave the gospel into just every bit of his sermon and do it to where it isn't.
37:54: It doesn't seem forced at all. It's just a passion that he has, again, and so between those two,
38:01: I would love to sit in a room with both of them. All right. Harry? Martin Lloyd -Jones.
38:09: I love him for being the expositor that he was, but he's the one I believe who coined theology on fire, right?
38:17: And besides the fact for three hours, I would not do much talking. I love to listen to his accent. But being able to me theology is theology, but to be able to take it, take theology and exposit it from the pulpit in a way that can be transferred to the people that we shepherd, that's what's important to me.
38:40: So I think Martin Lloyd -Jones is one that I would love to sit down for three hours. And I know they're, I think next year they're coming out with a video they're working on on his life and ministry that's being put out.
38:50: Well, just a couple things regarding Lloyd -Jones. There's now an application for your iPhones or other phones.
38:56: The Martin Lloyd -Jones Trust is open for free. You can download up to 1 ,500 sermons from the good doctor,
39:04: David Martin Lloyd -Jones. Also a congregation, if you type in T4G Mark Dever, Martin Lloyd -Jones,
39:11: Dever asked MacArthur, Ian Murray, his biographer, and Cather Wood, his grandson, a lot of questions about Lloyd -Jones.
39:18: It was captivating and spellbinding to see what God would do through a man and through preaching.
39:24: And so, so often we think of preaching, I think, less than we do, that is to say the proclaimed heralded word does its work in those who believe.
39:33: And over time it saves people, it sanctifies, it changes our thoughts, it changes how we look at ourselves, it causes repentance to change our mind.
39:42: Pastor Mike, what I loved about that T4G panel, the four there, I found out something about Lloyd -Jones that I didn't know that when he did, they asked him about the service, not specifically his preaching, but how he would conduct the service.
39:54: And he would not welcome newcomers, they said, because, and here I'm very big about welcoming new people to the church, and the reason is because you're not coming to church for yourself, you're coming to worship the
40:04: God that we're here to worship and preach about. So he wanted the focus to be God -centered and not man -centered.
40:10: So we might be closing the visitor center, so I don't know. I thought it was interesting when they talked about Lloyd -Jones, he's kind of a gruff guy, but then behind closed doors, all the grandkids, he was very patient and loving, and they could jump all over the sofa and on him, and he was just grandpa.
40:29: And so my final question is, what if you act differently in the pulpit?
40:36: So do you have a different presence out of the pulpit and a different one in the pulpit, and is that hypocrisy, or what is that?
40:50: I think from the pulpit you're coming as a herald for the king, the head of the church, so you have to proclaim with an attitude of thus saith the
40:58: Lord. Not that you don't do it when I meet with somebody one -on -one in a discipling kind of relationship, because it is discipleship when
41:07: Proverbs 27 says, better is open rebuke than hidden love.
41:12: And there are times you need to do that, but there are times that you need to be gracious, and I think you can do that in a gracious kind of way.
41:18: So I don't think it's hypocrisy. It's a matter of ministry, whether it's a one -on -one ministry or you're proclaiming the word of God, you have to do it with such fervor and passion that you're being
41:29: God's spokesperson from the pulpit as you minister the word. Yeah, I would agree with that.
41:40: And not in any kind of fraudulent way. I mean, you have a—I don't even want to say it that way.
41:49: There is a—you are representing the Lord. I mean, that's easy enough to say. You're declaring the
41:54: Bible here. And could I be funnier when I preach?
42:00: I think I probably could. I do exercise a modicum of restraint when I preach.
42:05: I don't blurt out every thought in my head. But it is important, and I recognize this too, to preach with passion, to preach with force, and to preach with personality.
42:18: And so I want to do that, and to some extent or another I do. But I think when
42:25: I'm dealing with people one -on -one, there is a difference, mostly because a lot of times
42:30: I'm dealing with people who are struggling with various issues, and I want to be patient and I want to instruct.
42:36: But especially if I'm dealing with an unbeliever, like I was here a few weeks ago with my friend who just died,
42:45: I can't take that kind of persona. I want to give them the same truth, but I have to approach it in a way where they know that I identify completely with them.
43:01: And even—not trying to promote the conference I was at, but at the conference I was at on Sunday when I preached the gospel,
43:07: I was almost just thinking about my friend Eddie who wasn't there on Sunday, and my friend
43:12: Don who I knew was dying at that time. I just thought, I'm going to plead in this message as if they were here.
43:21: And I almost made myself cry because I want people to be saved. I want them to believe.
43:28: And if there's anything I can do or say without compromising, I want to do that.
43:36: So all that to say that I think there are different ways we need to think in different situations, and that's just what we do.
43:44: Okay, guys, 7 o 'clock. Thank you very much for your answers. Congregation, if you ever want to ask them a question, you can either email them, call them, talk to them on a