MSL: April 9, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

The Show Opens and Matt Introduces the Day's Topics

Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live, and I hope you're going to have a good time listening today. If you want to call me on this wonderful April 9th of 2024, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

You can also email me. That's easy to do. Just send an email to info at karm .org. In the subject line, please put in radio comment or radio question, and I can get to them. Maybe we'll do that today, because we've got no callers waiting right now.

That sometimes happens. Usually at the beginning of the hour, it's slower than the end. So, Thursday, I'm supposed to be in a debate with a Muslim, who's a Muslim apologist. And he wants to actually debate me on, does the Bible teach that Jesus is divine?

Now, to me, well, okay, you want to do that, that's right. I'm going to show the verses. And he'll probably, I mean, I'm not predicting anything, but, oh, excuse me, whoa, boy, that's a good yawn, sorry about that.

He'll probably just, as they typically do, people who deny the deed of Christ when they use Scripture, they'll talk about where he didn't know something, or he had to grow in wisdom and stature, or, you know, whatever.

And they'll say things, he calls himself a man. And then I have to always teach them about the hypostatic union and the communicatio ideomatum. So we'll see if he knows about these things and how it goes, you know.

And I'm fairly confident in that topic. You know, I'm not worried about it. So we'll see. And I'm going to put it in the calendar. We'll get a, probably put the link and stuff up, because we're going to do it on this, on the Karm, probably do it on StreamYard, the Karm StreamYard thing.

So we'll put the link out and information so people can watch either on YouTube or Facebook. We'll figure it out. We'll get all the information up there. All right, like I said, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

And so if you want to, like I said, you can also e-mail me. And to do that, just info at karm .org and subject line, radio question, radio comment. All right, now, so something kind of interesting has been happening just a little bit in some of the venues that I go into, where I go in and talk because I've been doing this a long time.

A lot of people know who I am, and that's not a boast or anything. It's just whatever. I've been doing it a long time. And so I go into these rooms, and a lot of times they just start asking me questions.

Well, why all of a sudden am I yawning all of a sudden just now? I've got some coffee next to me. I'll have to take some coffee here in a sec. And so one of the things that's interesting lately, I've gone into some rooms, chat rooms, and different places on the Internet have different focuses or foci, I should say.

And so I go into this one, and it's against Islam. And the guy who runs it speaks Arabic, and he's incredibly knowledgeable about Islam. It's just incredible. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know, that kind of thing.

And he does not want to discuss certain Christian-based topics. One of them is predestination and free will and election. And he has his reasons. I'm not going to get into that. So what I have noticed, though, among the Christadelphians, the Mormons, the Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and in some other areas, they hate the doctrine of God's election.

That he chooses people for salvation. And this is interesting to me because the Bible teaches it. And what I do is, I will teach them, I'll show them right where the scriptures say it. This is what it says right here.

And they get upset with me. And they deny what it says. That reminds me, last night I was talking to a guy online. My wife had a bunch of girls over. And so I had to kind of hide out. And I stayed out later on the web than I would normally do.

And give all the ladies the time to talk and just have that fellowship. They don't need any guys around. And so I'm talking in this one chat room and we're discussing something. And it was really interesting what happened when we're discussing the issue of free will.

It's a common question. It's a common issue. People want to know what free will is. Why free will and predestination, election, sovereignty can't work. They just have these different things. So I'm patient.

People just don't know certain stuff. And I say, look, here's what we say about this. And here's an answer. What about that verse?

What about this?

So anyway, this is the kind of stuff that's going on. So I went to John 6 .65. And I said, what the Bible says right here, this is what Jesus says. You cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father.

And I said to this one guy, he was a Catholic. And I said, do you affirm that you can't come to Christ unless it's granted from the Father? And he said, that's your interpretation. And he just goes on.

See, this is your problem, Matt. You and your stupid interpretation of the Scripture. And you're just reading into the text what it doesn't say.

And I'm just waiting for it to be done.

And he says all this stuff. And I said, well, what I did was read the text to you. And then questioned basically right out of the text. I didn't interpret anything.

Let me read it to you again.

Jesus says, you cannot come to me unless it's been granted to you from the Father. And I said, so my question is, do you agree that you can't come to him unless it's granted to you from the Father?

And he did it again. That's your interpretation.

And it's stunning to me. And it took a while before he finally saw what he was doing. And it was really bad. So what I think is interesting is the depth that people will go who claim to follow Christ and they deny his word.

And that just surprises the bejeebers out of me. Someone says they're a Christian. And then I'll read a verse to them and they won't accept it. But that's what it says right there. And then other times what they'll do is I'll show them a verse like that one.

And they'll say, I'll go to an Old Testament verse. Choose this day when you serve.

See, you can choose.

And it's like, well, can we look at the context?

No, there's no context.

And I said, wait a minute. Did you realize what you just did? Did you realize you just said one scripture against another scripture?

No, I did not.

You just don't understand anything, man.

I'm like, well, I get it. I chuckle. You know, I'm not mocking them. I just like this. It's amazing to me because, no, I just read the first.

And so it's like in John 11, 35, where Jesus says, you know, where it says Jesus wept.

And I said, so this is what this verse says. It says he wept.

Jesus wept. So do you believe. Jesus wept?

That's what I'm doing. I'm just saying. Did you say it's your interpretation? It's not an interpretation. It's just a question repeating the statement.

And so anyway, this kind of stuff goes on. And I'm really surprised at it. I really am. I don't understand how people can claim to be Christians and then flat out deny what God's word says. And they claim to be Christians.

And I have a theory. The theory is simple. They are more loyal to their church and their pet theology than they are to Christ. In some areas. Okay, in some areas. I'm going to be careful here. I don't want to be too overtly mean or condemning.

I'm not trying to do that.

It's just. And I tell them that.

I say, look, look, does your church speak to the contrary of this? Is that why you're saying this? Because when I read the text, why is it you don't agree with the text? That's what it says. And I'll admit, though, it can be difficult to do that, particularly when you have a particular view that you think is just the way the truth of the life.

And then all of a sudden, some jerk named Slick comes up and says, well, what about this verse?

That's your interpretation. Well, no, it's just what it says. No, it doesn't mean what you think it means. I didn't say what I thought it means. What do you think it means? No, I'm not going to do there.

And this is what I battle a lot. I actually get a kick out of it.

I'm actually quite amused by it. And, you know, I'm not saying I don't do the same kind of a thing. But I will say this, that what I try and do is I try and just submit my understanding and my will to the word.

And I have a lot of theology and a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience. But it doesn't mean I'm right about everything. So if I read something in Scripture, I actually get my heart into the place of submit to what it says, no matter what it says.

That's it.

Just submit to what it says, no matter what it says.

That's what I want to do.

And so I'm hoping that others will want to adopt the same thing.

All right.

Oh, boy, there's another yawn. Sorry about that, ladies and gentlemen. Now, we've got a caller. I mean, not a caller, but we have a question. Matt, would you be willing to get into the Theonomy Q &A group and consider rewriting your Theonomy article?

Sure, I can rewrite it.

Yeah, I often, not often, but I rewrite articles after a few years. I go, I'm going to go in and modify this or change it or whatever.

And I do that.

So that's not a problem at all. Actually, I was thinking about doing that. I want to make sure that people understand the depth and the ideas of Theonomy, what I'm talking about. But anyway, let's see.

I'm looking. Is there a link to that conversation? Haps. Oh, hey, Haps, are you out here in Idaho now?

Could I ask that question?

I think he's the guy who's moving out here. Anyway, so we have nobody waiting. And if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. I think what I'm going to do now is go to the radio questions folder.

Let's see.

This is from Carrie. Can you talk a little bit about God being sovereign and bad things that happen such as... Bad things, I'm not going to read them all. How can we reconcile these things?

Well, okay.

This is...

Okay, he's not out for two more weeks. Here's how it works. That God is sovereign over all things. And God allows evil things to occur. So he has what's called the prescriptive will. Thou shalt not lie.

But he also has what we call the permissive will. He will let you lie. Adam is the representative of all mankind. He's our federal head. And when he sinned, we fell in him. And we inherited original sin.

That's Romans 5 .19. So, the cause of sin is Adam's rebellion. The entrance of sin into the world is Adam's rebellion. Romans 5 .12. For sin entered the world through one man. Therefore, sin is allowed to have its place because we're made in the image of God, demonstrating responsibility.

God is giving us the freedom that we have in his image. And what we're doing with it is sometimes evil. And he's letting people have that course. We don't know how much he stops and how much he hinders and why he lets certain things occur.

But he certainly does. We know that he does stop some things and permits others. That's up to his sovereign decree and what his will is. So, to reconcile them, all we do is we say that God in his sovereignty Oh, I better yawn.

Sorry about that, folks. God in his sovereignty allows bad things to happen because it's his will to allow bad things to happen. So, look at this. Adam was in the garden and he chose to sin. No one forced him.

It was his free will choice to rebel against God. He is what's called the efficient cause of his sin. But the proximate cause, we would say, is God. So, God is the one who put the trees in the garden let Satan come in the garden and let Adam and Eve be influenced by the teachings of Satan.

God allowed that. He willed it to happen. It doesn't mean he willed it by cause that they would fall. But he willed to let them have the opportunity to rebel against him in their own freedom. They did, and they're responsible for their own sin, not God.

The efficient cause is not the same thing as the proximate cause.

Hope that helps.

Hey, we'll be right back after these messages. There's the music, so please stay tuned. 877 -207 -2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

God's Sovereignty, Human Sin, and the Difference Between Cause and Permission

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's just get on the air here with Rob from Pennsylvania. Rob, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. So, you're wandering in the desert with struggling in sin. The world's calling your name. And you're calling upon God to help you out of the desert. He doesn't seem to be answering. Is it logical to at least start pondering that you may not be of the elect?

Yeah, it's worth pondering, sure. You said, is it logical to ponder it?

Yeah.

But on the other hand, if you're saved, no, it's not. If you're saved, then that's because God has chosen you for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2 .13, He's chosen you from the beginning for salvation. Acts 13 .48, as many as have been appointed to eternal life believed.

So let me ask you a question. How long have you been in the desert?

I think six months.

Okay.

My desert was five years. For real. Five years. I would pray, and it felt like nothing. I would ask, nothing happened.

Nothing.

I looked, sought, waited.

Nothing.

Probably because my thick skull was a lot worse than yours. So I needed five full years. But what happens in a desert is interesting.

So you go to the desert.

You've got to take a walk, right? So you have a bunch of supplies. You're ready. And you start walking. And you start walking. And you're in there. After a while, you're dropping stuff because it's getting in the way.

By the time you come out of that desert experience, you're stripped clean. And only the very essentials are left. What God often does in a desert is He strips everything from you because He's preparing you.

For me, I'm not just making it about me. I'm just telling you as an example. I've been through it. What was stripped was a lot of just stupid stuff. Confidence in my knowledge. That reasoning ability.

All this stuff. I boast in those things. I used to a great deal. I'm not trying to do that anymore. You know what came through it all was, what do I really believe in? What do I really believe in? He's going to do something for you, whatever it is.

And for me, it came down to one thing. Just one thing. How much do I really believe in the resurrection of Christ and who He is? That's all that was left. And I just said, it's you, Lord. I've got nothing left.

It's only you.

And I've already known that. But it needed to be strengthened and purified. And so, He brings us through deserts. In fact, Moses was in the desert. Forty years he was in Egypt learning how great he was.

Then forty years in the desert learning how nothing he was. And then forty years being used by the Lord. Forty years in the desert. Physically. Jesus was in the desert for forty days. Paul was in the desert for like three years.

After he got saved. And each time, the desert is a preparation and a stripping for God's use of you. So you're going through a desert. So what's God taking away from you? And what's going to be left?

Pride.

Pride.

You know, I'm a long-time student of yours and others. And I would say somewhere in the process, I got puffed up in knowing things. And having theology come easy for me. And somewhere, instead of trying to share that with people, it became more of a club to be people with.

There you go.

Yep.

Yeah, I left my club about halfway through.

I finally dropped it.

God, in my opinion, is trying to get me to view it less about winning, but more about the people.

Because what's that cross about?

I know why I'm there. It's just really hard because I feel like really far from God. And I don't want to be. I don't like that feeling. It used to be so easy, but I kind of miss the times where it was easy.

Yep.

Oh, I'm just chuckling. And I'm joyful to hear you go through this and struggle. Not because I wanted you to struggle, but because it's like, oh yeah, that's right. He's doing the pruning. He's doing the purifying.

Oh, it's just not good. But it's wonderful.

Yeah, it's not fun. Sometimes I just struggle, man. Because if you accept the five points, right, it's possible I might not be saved. It's possible I might not be elect. So that's where my struggle comes in.

Right now I feel like when I pray, I'm not so sure God is. It doesn't feel like God's listening. Even though everything scripture says, he would probably be listening because I have faith. I believe that he died for our sins.

I believe the resurrection. I believe he is God in the flesh. I shouldn't be able to say that if I'm not regenerating. But I just look around in my life, and I just see a lot of ways that the world has seeped in.

And I don't have the same attention to God's word that I had. I don't maintain as much of my religious practices as I have. But the only thing I really consistently still do is church attendance.

I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear you're going through it.

I'm serious.

I am. Because I know God's doing something with you. See, in Hebrews 13 .5, he says, I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you. But he will let you be purified. Because you probably said sometime in the past, Lord, use me.

I don't care what it is. You probably said something like that.

Yeah, I did because I wanted to be a pastor.

There you go. And see, he's going to clean you out. He'll take you as you are, but he won't leave you as you are. So you're on a wonderful, painful journey.

Is there a way that I can know the difference between being pruned and being severed?

You're pruned. God does not give up on you. You already know the trinity is true. Jesus Christ is God in flesh, died on the cross. You put your faith, your trust in what he did, not anything in you.

That's it.

That's what will never drop away in that desert. That's what's there. If it does go away, you were never saved. But only you know in your heart. Do you really believe it? Do you really believe it?

That's what you have to ask.

Is it really part of you? If the answer is yes, well, okay, then it's pruning. Then it's pruning. That's all it is.

Okay?

I mean, even in my darkest moments, I know God exists. I believe in God. Let Jesus die for my sins. Like, that's pretty much the only reason I would still, like, There's two things that stayed the whole time.

Like, just doubt that his salvation applies to me. That's the only thing I really, really struggle with.

Yeah, he's purifying you and strengthening what is there. He's strengthening what is there by removing the other. Forcing you to face it so that you can be used by him differently in the future. Hold on now, we've got a break.

We'll be right back, okay? Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Pruning, Assurance, and the Desert Experience of Spiritual Growth

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back with Rob. Are you still there?

I'm still here, Matt.

All right. Yeah, sorry about the break there at that time, but that's okay. I just wanted you to know that it sounds to me like you have a wonderful future ahead of you because God's taking you seriously and he's pruning you.

Do you have time for a second question? I know I've been on a while.

Yeah, we've got three callers waiting. You want to call back and get in line?

Would that be okay?

Yeah, that's fair. Okay. Thank you for your time, Matt.

All right, Matt. Okay.

Sounds good. All right. Now let's get to next. Longest waiting is Amy from Wyoming. Amy, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt.

Can you hear me okay?

Yes, I can. Yeah, I can.

You're on the air. Where do you go? Okay.

So I was just curious if you have ever debated or discussed or whatever and been proven wrong and when that was and what it was regarding.

Well, it's a difficult question to answer because, you know, sometimes I'll get minor facts incorrect. I might have a statistic incorrect or I might have sometimes even a reference because, you know, I get a lot in my head and I'll kind of get them wrong sometimes.

It happens, you know, and stuff like that. The closest that this has happened with within the past couple of years, three years, is dealing with logical issues that some atheist philosophers will say, Well, here's a problem with your thinking because of this.

And then I'll examine what it is. And sometimes I go, Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay, thank you very much. And other times I go, No, I don't agree with you. And so that doesn't happen very often. You're one of those.

But, you know, stuff like that and stuff. But I've been doing this for so long that, you know, I know the arguments and I've kind of polished them now so that there's not a whole bunch really to change.

I'm not saying I can't. I'm not saying I got everything right. But, you know, it's just you do it a long time. You kind of learn stuff.

That's all.

Well, that's basically why I asked because I know you've been doing this a very, very long time. And to be honest with you, before I started listening to you and Andrew Rappaport, I didn't realize there were so many different types of Christianity, you know, Calvinist and what have you.

And so I'm, like, getting all of this brand-new information in that, you know, I always just thought either you're a Christian or you're not.

But it's true.

And I see how...

Okay. Because that's going to be, like, my next question. I mean, like, you wouldn't say somebody who disagrees with some of your ideals is necessarily, like, that they're just not saved because of that, right?

Like... Oh, no.

I'm a Calvinist, and if you're not, okay.

I'm not.

That's all right.

I don't know what I am, but I know I'm questioning pre-destination and election. I'm looking more into it and stuff, trying to wrap my head around it.

Well, I do have articles written on it, but then you've got to be careful from a guy named Slick. You know, you've got to be careful. So what I would do is I would go to Bible programs and just look up, like, for example, Ephesians 1, 4, and 5.

That's where you should start, Ephesians 1, 4, and 5, because it has election and pre-destination right there in the Bible. And what you could do is go to, like, BlueLetterBible .com or BibleGateway .com and look up that verse and read commentaries.

What I would do beforehand is read what's before, read what's after, read the whole context of Ephesians 1, because that's where it's taught. It's very clear. It's right there. And so then you just make notes and ask questions.

Go ahead.

Yes, and I will absolutely do that, and thank you for that. I think one of the things that's been super frustrating for me lately is hearing two people disagree on the text, and both people are exegeting, but they're still giving different interpretations.

And that's okay.

Romans 14.

How do you know which one's right? You don't sometimes.

Yeah.

That's okay.

Okay.

It's okay. In Romans 14, it says, you know, don't pass judgment on debatable issues. Like Andrew Rappaport, you mentioned him. He's a dispensationalist. I'm a covenantalist. He's a cessationist. I'm a continuationist.

Okay.

We disagree. One or both of us are wrong in several of the issues. That's all right. But we don't disagree in the essentials. That's the difference.

Okay.

You don't have to have it all solved.

Thank you, sir.

You don't have to have it all solved, but I will say this. You talked about election predestination. Let me tell you what's going on. I'll give you a head start a little bit.

Okay.

Adam represented us. He's called our federal head. In Adam, all die.

Okay.

He represented us. Jesus represented us, too.

Okay.

But who did Adam represent? Who did Jesus represent?

Those are the questions.

When you go to Ephesians 1, verse 3, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him.

He, as the Father, chose us in Him. And in Him is Jesus. Before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

It's so critical. He chose us. How do we know He chose us? Because the Bible says so. It's simple.

Okay.

Can it be, I mean, can it work both ways, hypothetically?

Both ways. What?

The thought that keeps running through my mind is, like, could it be more general than it is actually specific? Meaning, like, He's chosen all of us. Like, He wants us all to come to Him and be saved.

Is that true? I don't know. 1 Timothy 2 .4, He desires all men to be saved. 2 Peter 3 .9, He wants all people to be saved.

Okay?

People say, well, that means He wants all people to be saved. I'll go this quickly because we're going to break a couple of minutes. I ask the question, if all means every individual who ever lived, two questions then.

Why does Jesus speak in parables? In Mark 4, 10 through 12, He tells us He speaks in parables so people will not be saved. That's what He says, so they'll not be forgiven. Now, if He wants all, and all means every individual, then how is it possible that Jesus would speak in parables so they'll not be forgiven?

Now, they don't contradict. They have to harmonize. And I'll say, if He wants every individual to be saved, then what about 1 Samuel 3 .14, where God says, I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquities of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.

Now, wait a minute.

If they're not atoned for by Jesus' sacrifice, then how can that be part of the all? Now you ask, who or what is the all? This leads you to more study. Because Jesus was not sent to the whole world. He was not.

Because He says, in Matthew 15 .24, He says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He specifically says who He was sent to was only to Israel, not to the world, not to the Egyptians, not to the Americans, not to the people in Australia.

What happened was, let me give you the answer. The Jews broke the covenant with God, and because of that, we the Gentiles were then grafted in.

That's what happened.

That's why He loves the whole world, not just the Jews.

Okay?

Okay.

That's what I was going to ask was, is it possible that all of the elect are technically descendants of Jews?

No, because you have non-Jews who are also chosen. You have non-Jews who are also chosen.

Okay.

I've done studies on this, how God uses the word all. I've really done a lot of study, and I could teach on this for quite a while, and go through verses. Sometimes I'll do it for an hour in chat rooms.

I have them all memorized. I go, look here, look here, look at this, look at what's going on. I do it slowly for people because they're just not used to hearing this kind of thing. I say, but what does the Scripture say?

Here's something really quick. I'll show you something really quick. For example, I say, would you agree with me that whenever it says anyone has died to sin or died to the law, died to self, died with Christ, it's only the believers, right?

Yeah.

We don't see people who are damned. They died with Christ.