June 10, 2019 Show with Ken Golden on “Presbytopia: What It Means To Be Presbyterian”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen You Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day of July 2019

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You know, there's nothing Rarer than a Jewish Reformed Baptist pastor then a

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Reformed and Presbyterian Jewish pastor and today that is what we have as our guest today or who we have as our guest today a

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Returning guest one of my favorite guests to interview Ken Golden Organizing pastor at Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Davenport, Iowa He is a

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Jewish believer and today he is going to be addressing his book Presbytopia what it means to be

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Presbyterian and I have a caveat ladies and gentlemen, I am NOT converting from my Reformed Baptist Roots here as a

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Christian into Presbyterian ism But I love my Presbyterian brothers and I recognize that the differences between us are very little they're important But they're very little in comparison to what we hold in common

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Ken Golden Thanks Chris.

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It's great to be back Yes, and I hope that do you understand my little caveat there because I know rumors monks

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Christians spread like wildfire And there'll be no doubt people saying that Chris Arnzen has converted to Presbyterianism Although not that that would be the most horrible thing in the world

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Well, tell our listeners about Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Davenport, Iowa Yeah, so we've been a mission work

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Actually ten years, I'm the second church planner there I've been in the

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Quad Cities since 2011 and we've ebbed and flowed as many mission works do but We've been doing a lot of outreach for the last eight years.

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We do fair booths We do harvest parties. We do cookies and carols events at local centers.

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We've done conferences all kinds of things try to reach Community for the gospel and also for the tradition

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Great. And by the way folks if you want to hear the fascinating testimony of Ken Golden's Salvation story of having been raised in a

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Jewish home and coming to faith in Christ and also becoming a theologically reformed Christian After this show is over.

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You might want to go to iron sharpens iron radio .com and click on the past shows

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Podcast section and then type in Ken Golden in the search engine

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Golden and you will have his previous interviews on this program including his testimony well, this is an interesting a title that you've given your

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Book this book published by Christian focus Presbytopia Obviously you're combining

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Presbyterian and utopia But if you could explain a little bit more why you felt the need to write this book

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I I can already think of some reasons because I know amongst a lot of mainstream evangelicals or perhaps a lot of Even those outside of the evangelical or Bible Christian faith

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There are a lot of Catholics and others who when they hear the term Presbyterian they are immediately thinking of the

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Presbyterian Church down the road that ordains women and Homosexuals and is pro -abortion and all kinds of horrendous and horrible and apostate things and obviously that is nothing

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That would be included in your description, but if you could tell us the driving force behind writing

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Presbytopia Yeah, well, let me just respond to your

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Point about the title of the title was something that My public or a

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Christian focus they were looking for something catchy pithy Something memorable and that was one of the hardest things to come up with in in the whole process was finding the right title and It came to me.

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I was just doing a lot of searches and Looking at source and all kinds of things and I thought about the word utopia and I thought about the word dystopia

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And I wasn't so much thinking of a Presbyterian utopia because utopia in literally means no place and dystopia means bad place, but I thought two words

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Part of the words came together nicely in Presbytopia, which is a native word doesn't exist means old place

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But old places have value We can learn things from old places

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And then somebody pointed out to me that my title sounds too much like Presbyopia Which means old eyes

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Perhaps I I was too quick With that title, but it has stuck and people do recognize it

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So it served its purpose As far as reason I wrote the book This is really a published development of an outline that I've been using ever since I began

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Serving as a pastor back in 2005. I kept in an outline form I was

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I originally was introduced to the genre of Membership classes using the

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Calvin Knox Cummings book Confessing Christ, which is a Good book. It's a little dated.

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It's been around and I believe the 1970s or 80s And everything was in there that I that I appreciated everything's in there that I wanted to do different Like I came up with my own outline and I learned what

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I learned from that book. I kept my outline I had no intention of publishing Until I was asked to review a book some years ago probably about five years ago a book that was intended to be placed on a literature table of a reformed

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Presbyterian Church and Book was well written. It was solidly

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Reformed and Presbyterian it made good arguments and there's really nothing in the content that One could find fault with however, the book was very

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Heady and advanced For its purpose for somebody walking into your church with really no background on what?

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Presbyterian reform people believe there were long quotes from the confessions

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There were quotes from theologians whatnot, which were fine for a more advanced work

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But not really suitable for a beginner's work I read that and I really recommend it in a review article

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I wrote but then I realized well, maybe I should put my knee where my mouth is and actually do the very thing that I'm that I feel that this book is not doing and that led me to to turn my manuscript into a book that is really accessible to the laity and Also to pastors but not really to theologians and academics as much as I wanted

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I think our greatest strength and our greatest weakness in our tradition is that we're very deep we have a very deep and well thought -out system of theology and government and worship and practice

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We're very good at these things But Sometimes Your greatest strength is your greatest weakness and sometimes when we talk about our tradition

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We overreach and we go over people's heads and I think for beginners It's very important to have an accessible

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Introduction to what we believe and who we are and that's the primary reason I wrote the book

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And I was wondering if you before we go into some of the main Hallmarks or pillars of what you believe must be included under the title

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Presbyterian I was wondering if you believe that People who use the name in their church merely because of their governmental status in the body of Christ or in religion

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Because there are some that I just mentioned in the beginning who are outside of the body of Christ I believe who use the term

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Presbyterian, but but is it those that are using it to describe their polity, but may have some

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Differences ranging in severity from you like for instance you have the mainline liberals.

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And of course there are Born there are there are a remnant of born -again biblically faithful pastors and congregations within the

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PC USA and Perhaps other liberal mainline Presbyterian churches, but you also have some of my brothers and sisters our brothers and sisters in the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America and Ulster who are Presbyterian in polity, but who permit

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Baptistic pastors in regard to the ordinance of baptism and you even have evangelical

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Presbyterians in the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination that are Arminian. In fact,

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I remember One time when I wrongly assumed that a congregation in that denomination was

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Calvinistic. I got a very very nasty volatile response from the pastor who was calling me a heretic because I was a

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Calvinist but shocked me but To start off with our people who use the Presbyterian Title in your opinion who are only using it for a description of their polity

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Incorrectly adopting that as their their title. That's a very very good question.

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I think I Think Presbyterianism obviously describes polity and I have a section on that in the book

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But I think the word itself has come to describe the Anglo American Thought of our tradition as opposed to the continental reformed who primarily have historically have been found in Holland and Switzerland and Hungary and other in France other places but I think

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This reminds me of a book that I appreciate very much written by Daryl Hart and John Meather Called seeking a better country where people define

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Presbyterianism differently. It's very interesting because you know, we confessional Presbyterians and confessional

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Christians of any stripe and to define our our tradition based on our our doctrine and and for that matter our polity worship and other things but Presbyterianism a mid -20th century became known as or became connected with ecumenical

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Connections so the World Council of Churches things like that. So it really depends on who you're talking to if you talk to somebody in the left they're going to define

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Presbyterianism differently than we will and my purpose in writing this book about Presbyterianism is to describe what we have

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Historically believed as Presbyterians to be compatible with our confessions

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But but primarily to show that the reason we're confessional is because we believe that it's the best summary of scripture so my my

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Task in writing this book was not to quote the confessions in every chapter, but to show

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Scriptural basis for our tradition. So let's start with some of those things that are primary hallmarks pillars

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That you believe must be present for a church to properly call themselves

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Presbyterian Sure, so we've got seven chapters the book is divided into three parts.

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Let me go back a step here there's three parts the first part I call

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Christian essentials and These are the things that that a Christian must believe now

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There's language that I use in these chapters that other Christians might You know find a new thought or foreign language to them but the essence of what's being taught here is something that should be common to all churches and Christians who call themselves

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Christian and If you're using this book as a membership class these seven chapters would be the primary chapters one would

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Expect somebody to be able to make a credible profession of faith with So the

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Christian essentials involves Understanding the Bible. I Summarize that as God's Word to man trying to keep it simple which in order to understand anything about Christianity you have to be able to accept the

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Bible as the Word of God and once you do that There's a logical order that takes place and understanding how what the

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Bible teaches and Bible starts with God So my second chapter is about who he is and then we're introduced to man who he was

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And quickly we discover that man did not live up to God's expectations for the fourth chapter that concerns sin what man has done and The fifth chapter

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Christ what God has done. That's where the gospel is really Presented and developed and then

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I have two chapters on the spirit which applies to two different blessings that we find in that the

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Holy Spirit brings about blessings of salvation spirit applying what

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God has done that is Justification and spirit applying what God is doing that is sanctification

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So those are those are the Christian essential chapters and we can talk about You can talk more about them as we go part two involves

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Reform distinctives, you know, I separate these from the essentials because I truly believe that you can be a

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Christian and have Some very strong differences of opinion as you shared earlier in the show

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Okay, and I think things like tulip are doctrines of grace The acronym that describes five distinct

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Speaks of Calvinism Is a reform distinctive. I think it's very important I think it's very healthy, but I do think there are

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Christians who disagree with tulip and so remain in the body of Jesus Christ chapters 9 and 10

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Focus on government and worship Those are things that Bible does speak that I make biblical arguments for that I don't believe are essential to Christianity I think there's different forms that those take that are more or less healthy and the last part

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Describes how we grow means of grace and here we're talking about means of God working

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Salvation into our lives and growing us the gospel and that involves preaching and sacraments

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I have separate chapters on baptism and the Lord's Supper Those are very

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Obviously controversial chapters among Christians and chapter 14 includes prayer

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Those are the 14 chapters now for the listener who is not really familiar with Confessional Christianity, I know that the

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Westminster Confession of Faith and the West is Westminster catechisms

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Large and short are the primary summaries of Christian faith that Presbyterians that is conservative

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Bible -believing evangelical Presbyterians view as their Their standard which is a summary of what they believe the

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Bible teaches some people might wrongly assume as they do with Reformed Baptists and some others who are confessional that that we are

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Putting another standard alongside the Bible as if they are equal in authority and that is not at all what these confessions themselves even teach

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But and I know that many Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists perhaps to a lesser extent uphold the three forms of unity that are brethren in the

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Reformed branch of Christianity that comes from the Netherlands predominantly The Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, and the

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Canons of Dort Would that be what I just said an accurate statement as far as What would be the summary of biblical teachings primary biblical teachings that unites

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Presbyterians? Yeah like I was talking about earlier the different definitions of Presbyterianism the historic one that That I hold to have taken vows uphold is is describing our historical doctrinal governmental liturgical tradition which has been passed down to us and which is expressed through creeds and confessions and Westminster Confession of Faith and the larger and shorter catechisms are excellent summaries of the biblical teaching

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However, they're not infallible summaries Westminster Confession was revised in 1788

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Considerable changes take place to chapter 23 We're building the civil magistrate and there's other changes over the years.

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These are human documents theology from below We believe that it is useful theology.

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We believe that we can find our common beliefs and Community in these creeds and I would challenge anyone who is who suspect

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Who finds these things suspect? challenge you to think about What you believe and how even short summary a short mission statement at the church you attend is still a creed it's something that the human beings have have read the

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Bible collectively and Have come to a common understanding of certain teachings and that's a creed and Creeds are not perfect.

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We are fallible creatures We are the Word of God is it's not written by man

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It is written by God or I should say the superintended by God Even though the authors are human

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So so there's a there's a difference. The Bible is the primary standard. It's infallible it cannot be proven wrong, but it needs to be interpreted and How we interpret it leads to the creeds and conceptions that we make and we being a historical tradition believe that 400 years of Presbyterianism is a very healthy and and strong interpretation of Scripture Yes, I know one thing that I I think most

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Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists today, although there are exceptions but most

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Do not any longer Have an eschatological view of the

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Pope or the papacy being the Antichrist They may view him as an

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Antichrist, but they would not necessarily view him as the Antichrist as the confessions point to And that is not considered an abandonment of the confessions it's just showing the human nature of the confessions as you just stated and also want to point out that does not mean that Conservative Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists have a more positive view of the papacy at all

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It's just like if you were to say I I don't believe Adolf Hitler is the Antichrist Doesn't mean that you have some kind of a soft view of Adolf Hitler It is just that it is an eschatological doctrine many in your tradition and mine have

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Abandoned the idea in our confessions that the Pope is the Antichrist. So that would be one area as well, right?

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Yeah, well, I think I mean that that's a whole nother subject. I do think that John 1st

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John chapter 2 talks about an Expectation of the Antichrist coming into the world, but then he goes on to say

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Many are here already paraphrased of course and you know, there are

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Antichrist and Protestant churches, too It really depends on how you interpret those those teachings

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Clearly there have been false teachers over the centuries. There have been Popes over the centuries who have been faithful brothers in the

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Lord even, you know in the Middle Ages They're the Catholic Church made big contributions to our tradition, but there's a reason why we had a reformation and And I'll we need to apologize for being being

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Protestant But for whatever reason I'm not an expert on why that clause was removed

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And It just goes to show that Confessions are changeable

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We have not been according to some we have not been a creed writing age, which not quite sure what that means

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Because I don't think we're any less capable than People who have lived in previous ages and certainly a lot happened in 400 years

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Which might warrant? You know a newer confession that doesn't contradict the older confession but the point of the matter is that Confessions are our theology from below and we believe that as Presbyterians We believe that our confessional system is the best

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Understanding of Scripture, but we don't believe that it's perfect. We don't believe that it's infallible and I Think humility would dictate that True branches of the

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Church of Jesus Christ have something to offer And we can learn from each other in certain degrees, but we can also be true to what we believe

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We can have unity, but we can't have unity apart from the truth Okay. Well when we come back from our first break,

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I'd like you to begin putting a magnifying glass Over all three of the headings that we hope to address

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Before the end of the program all three of the divisions of your book on What makes up a

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Presbyterian or a Presbyterian Church? And if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com at CHRIS ARNZEN at gmail .com

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Please as always give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away

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We'll be right back with Ken Golden and our discussion on what it means to be a

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always remember to mention that you heard about solid ground Christian books on iron sharpens iron radio

39:28

We are now back with our guest Ken Golden. We were discussing his book Presbytopia what it means to be

39:33

Presbyterian Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

39:40

Ken if you could give us More of a microscopic view of what you were

39:50

Speaking about in regard to the first heading of what it means to be Presbyterian right, so part one talks about Christian essentials and it begins with chapter 1 the

40:05

Bible God's Word to man We talked about some familiar headings things like Revelation how

40:13

God reveals himself reveals himself in God's In nature in his created world as I described and also in his

40:25

Supernatural word His natural world in a supernatural word And then

40:31

I go on Assuming that not everybody in the audience is familiar with all parts of the

40:37

Bible. Some people are beginners. So I talk about biblical books the composition of Scripture I'm very very briefly.

40:46

I'm not writing a treatise I'm moving through these topics covering what needs to be said not overriding

40:54

But giving an introduction to these things and then I talk about the qualities. We use the word attributes of Scripture things like Scripture being inspired and errant infallible powerful profitable

41:11

All the things that the Bible describes of itself and is a blessing to us

41:17

And then I talked about the authority of Scripture and I compare that with other authority standards that we have things like reason and experience and tradition and how

41:28

Scripture trumps them all and finally, I talked about the canon completed standard and I try to do all of these things by making biblical arguments rather than Simply assuming that they're true

41:43

So as much as showing that that the Bible self authenticates as some people would say

41:52

Now one of the reasons why I believe confessionalism is important is that when you have a clear summary of What a church or denomination or fellowship believes about what the

42:12

Bible teaches You will be more clearly

42:18

Alerted when that a group of believers has departed from one

42:25

From what was once held historically by that group. I I can say

42:32

For instance that the PC USA the the much larger denomination from which the

42:41

OPC during the modernist fundamentalist controversy a sprung forth with the guidance of great men like Jay Gresham Machen And you have other churches that have come out of there like the

42:55

Bible Presbyterian Church and the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and we could go on and on with some fine biblically faithful conservative

43:06

Presbyterian churches, but the PC USA began to downplay and if not outright ignore and abandon the

43:15

Westminster Confession of Faith Which should have been and most likely was and obviously was actually an alarm going off that That the

43:27

PC USA was abandoning ship if you could just continue on that train of thought and Respond to what

43:32

I said Yeah, actually it was far worse than that. I think Presbyterian Church Certainly in the north and it took a little bit longer in the south

43:45

Presbyterian Church in the United States that it was abandoning the Westminster standards for decades and What was at stake in the fundamentalist modernist debate?

43:55

was not simply confessional integrity, but biblical integrity the the folks who were who were on the left in the

44:07

PC USA It was a broad tent back then in the 20s and the 30s the PC USA, which is the

44:13

Presbyterian Church in the north had folks who thought it was okay to Deny the resurrection to deny the deity of Christ to deny miracles and the virgin birth and to still say that it's okay to Be a member even a minister in the

44:31

Presbyterian Church. So that but we're not even talking about Confessional integrity there.

44:36

We're talking about the very essence of Christianity, right? Well, the reason why I Emphasized the confession in my statement was that you will have liberals and apostates

44:47

Often claiming that they hold a high regard for the Bible That people will say it is their favorite book

44:57

They've gained great wisdom from it. There is even a I learned a number of years ago from former

45:07

PC USA Ministers or actually they might have even been remaining in the PC USA, but they were evangelical that there are those that Differentiate between the infallibility of the

45:20

Word of God and the inerrancy of the Word of God They will these liberals will claim infallibility

45:26

But not inerrancy. They will say they they believe the Bible is infallible because it never fails

45:32

But it is filled with errors if you follow what I'm saying so the reason why I emphasize the confession because there's a clue there's a clear list of Things that these believers such as the

45:45

Presbyterians have historically Exegeted from the Bible if you follow what I'm saying Yes Yeah, and I think this is in continuing with what the church

45:57

Catholic lowercase e has always done in the face of error going all the way back to the time when the

46:06

Orthodox or the lowercase e Catholics were Gathering their canonical books and in light of Marcion's Heresy where he was rejecting biblical books and corrupting biblical books and we had statements like the

46:22

Apostles Creed which was written against Probably against Marcion as well and and certainly

46:29

Gnosticism which was denying the humanity of Christ and over the centuries we have had statements

46:37

Church has has put out in form of creeds and later more extensive confessions to defend

46:43

What people have always believed? but because our theology is from below we sometimes have our differences and Even some of the earliest

46:53

Christians would think they would be closer to being a hundred percent, right? Some of the earliest church fathers didn't get everything right either and I think there were improvements based on research and meditation and and really

47:12

Working through issues that were in front of them to do the work they needed to do to come up with not invent but but really uncover the

47:25

Trinitarian doctrine the two natures of Christ Christology that we appreciate and all of these areas of doctrine that we hold dear were oftentimes defended in the face of serious threats to the church and And I think those mr.

47:44

Confession of Faith and earlier reformed creeds face similar challenges

47:51

Well, we have a listener a very faithful listener Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina has a question great show

47:58

Chris and Ken one of my best friends and brothers in Christ is Presbyterian and I'm a Reformed Baptist We attend the same church a

48:06

Reformed Baptist congregation and the main difference we see between the two is pedo and credo baptism

48:13

Do you see other differences between these denominations? We both agree that no matter the differences

48:19

We're to love one another Yeah, I think that's a great the last statement that this brother makes is an excellent statement and we have a

48:31

Reformed Baptist Congregation here in the Quad Cities Sycamore Baptist Church and their great brothers

48:38

Pastor Chuck Rennie graduated from the same seminary that I did and he and Some other pastors at his church sometimes fill our pulpit and I filled his pulpit

48:49

So I think we do have a lot in common I do think and I'm not an expert on these things, but I would say the pedo credo

48:58

Difference is the biggest one, but that is really a part and parcel of differences in covenant theology

49:06

I Think yes, very big difference in covenant theology between Baptist and Presbyterian.

49:12

I think there are differences in church government to my knowledge Reformed Baptists are two office churches and Presbyterian churches many of which are three office church.

49:23

So there are other differences Baptists generally believe in the autonomy and independence of the local church meaning that there is no hierarchy outside of the local elders other than God himself and the

49:37

Holy Scriptures that are over them where as a As a Presbyterian you would have obviously

49:42

Presbyterians and so on Yeah, the interconnectedness is another difference and I and this goes back to what

49:49

I said earlier is my book is written in three parts And what we're talking about here involves part two and part three

49:57

These are important differences and they affect the health and well -being of the

50:02

Church of Jesus Christ, but they're not essentials and Therefore we can have fellowship with each other with the understanding that we don't want to minimize truth

50:13

We don't want to simply Throw away our distinctives for the sake of unity because that's what the

50:20

World Council of Churches did In the 20th century and you can have unity apart from the truth as well

50:27

So we believe in unity, but also some distinctives and diversity and being true

50:36

To who you are and gets to the issues of the value of tradition as long as tradition submits to Scripture now, do you think that Presbyteries were adopted by Presbyterians Because of the absence of The Apostles in our modern day and when

51:00

I say modern day, I'm even talking about any error of Christendom after the apostolic error

51:07

Is that why you have Presbyteries because we as Reformed Baptists do only see as you mentioned earlier

51:12

Two offices in the Bible we see elders and deacons And so what would be the reason for the development of Presbyteries or how you would exegete that from the

51:25

Scripture Right, that's a great question. I've got a whole chapter on that actually my chapter on government

51:32

Which I'm turning to right now as we speak the argument that I make in that chapter is that even though it is

51:39

Reformed distinctive and therefore there are differences in the body of Christ I think it's an important difference because it affects the the health and well -being of the church

51:49

And I make my argument from Scripture. I don't believe that we are Presbyterians simply because it is an ecclesiastical or church

51:59

Decision that is based solely on wisdom in the light of nature. I do think that there are clues and What the

52:06

Westminster Confession of Faith calls In chapter one good and necessary Consequence that when you connect the dots we all have this some of our our

52:19

Doctrines requires some studies throughout the scriptures and not simply one chapter and verse that everything is so neat and tidy and Some of what we hold too dear as we have to make

52:33

Lazy arguments about that not everybody's going to agree with and I think church government

52:39

I think there are good reasons that I argue in this book to believe that Presbyterian government is the likeliest or best explanation of what

52:50

Scripture offers and chapter Chapter 9 gets into detail on that.

52:57

I I lay the foundations At the beginning of the chapter for why God institutes government

53:04

I offer some options as far as different forms of church government. I cover things like Episcopal government which is hierarchical which we find in in the

53:16

Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches in the Anglican Church, and then

53:21

I talk about Independency which we find in Baptist churches and many Other churches that we find in our country and around the world and then

53:30

I talk about Presbyterian government and each of these comes at the scriptures differently some are based on tradition as well, but All of the arguments that I make in this chapter are from Scripture And I believe that the

53:46

Bible does have something to say about church government But I recognize that there are differences of opinion

53:54

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now This is the longer the normal break on our show because grace life radio 90 .1

54:01

FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle because they air their own commercials and public service announcements that localize iron trip and Zion radio to Lake City, Florida And while they do that, we air our own commercials that are heard globally

54:17

So while this is taking place during this longer midway break, please use this time wisely write down the

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Information provided by advertisers in the commercials so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because the longer or more often you patronize our

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Which means that we more likely are going to remain on the air. We rely upon the advertising dollars of Our advertisers to exist so please patronize them as often as you can

54:53

Keeping in mind that every time you purchase something from them or use their services Or attend their churches or what have you?

55:02

You are helping to preserve on interpreters iron radio even more But also while you're doing that write down questions for our guest

55:11

Ken Golden on what it means to be Presbyterian at Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com

55:18

and as always give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away We'll be right back with Ken Golden and more on our discussion on what it means to be

55:32

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It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there I think every year it's great to see him there you and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place

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In the theater and became convicted that that was improper activity and livelihood for Christians and he left that field of of employment he was a war hero in the

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or any of our advertisers Now I need to let you know about a couple of very important events that I'll be attending and I hope you join me there

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At both of them. The first is coming up in December Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City during Christmas season

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What a better time of year to go to Manhattan than during the Christmas season or what better place to go to?

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During the Christmas season than Manhattan. I just love Manhattan at Christmas time and the foundation's conference is going to be held

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and The speakers at this conference include some really remarkable

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Men of God including dr. Stephen J Lawson founder of one passion ministries Paul Washer Reverend Jeff Thomas Reverend Armin Tomasian Who is a pastor in the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America that I mentioned earlier? Richard Colwell jr. And Andrew Quigley.

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I have not yet heard those two men preach But if sermon audio selected them they must be magnificent So if you want to join me there

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December 19th and 20th in New York City at the foundation's conference Go to the foundation's conference calm the foundation's conference calm

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Please mention that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio then in January I'm packing up my bags again and heading down to Atlanta, Georgia actually specifically

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College Park, Georgia to the Georgia International Convention Center and We are expecting a crowd of over 5 ,000 people there once again at the g3 conference

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I will be manning an exhibitors booth there once again for iron sharpens iron radio, and I hope that you come see me

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This is going to be a phenomenal conference as it always is This January the theme is worship matters

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The speakers include Kosti Hinn who is a reformed Baptist and cessationist pastor

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But believe it or not. He is the nephew of the renowned notorious heretic

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Benny Hinn and Kosti is not upset by me saying that because he spends a great deal of his life in ministry exposing his own uncle and all who are leaders in the word of faith movement for being the dangerous deadly and damning heretics that they are and You will be

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I think riveted to Kosti Hinn as he speaks on this subject that worship matters

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He as I said is a reformed Baptist and cessationist pastor in California and has repented of the

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Word of Faith heresies that he was raised in Darrell Bernard Harrison now on staff with grace to you.

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What a fine brother in Christ. He is David Miller is on the roster What a powerful preacher old -school a fiery preacher

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I love hearing him preach Derek Thomas who is no stranger to most reformed Christians Especially if they love banner of truth,

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Derek Thomas is on the roster. Dr. James R. White my dear friend for many years My friend juror

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Jeremy Volo is on the the roster as well Former professional soccer player with the

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San Antonio Scorpions now a reformed Baptist pastor in Laredo, Texas. Dr Joel Beakey president of Puritan reformed theological seminary who

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I have known since the 1990s and have Actually was a part of his first being involved in on the radio in the 1990s

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And the big announcement that you heard earlier Dr. John MacArthur is going to be on the roster at this conference.

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I'm so excited about that Paul Washer and Stephen Jay Lawson are also at this conference

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Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you Steve Stephen Jay Nichols the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late

01:14:50

RC Sproul and Ligonier ministries My friend Todd Freel is going to be speaking.

01:14:55

Dr. Tom Askell the executive director of Founders ministries the Calvinistic ministry in the

01:15:01

Southern Baptist Convention Votie Balcom who is one of the most powerful preachers alive today and more

01:15:08

So if you want to attend the g3 conference, which stands for gospel grace and glory, by the way, if you were wondering

01:15:14

Go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm I would strongly urge you if you have a business or a parachurch organization to register for an exhibitors booth as well, just like I will be manning there because they have been

01:15:28

Drawing over 5 ,000 people annually to this and with John MacArthur being added to the lineup

01:15:34

I think they're gonna have more than 6 ,000 people myself so not only register to attend but register for an exhibitors booth at G3 conference calm g3 conference calm.

01:15:45

That's Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th 2020 hope to see you there now.

01:15:51

I just have to Conclude my special announcements with another plea for donations

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Zion radio We thank you in more ways than I can possibly Describe in the English language if you want to join us on the air with a question for Ken golden on what it means to Be Presbyterian our email address is

01:18:03

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com Now we're back with Ken golden Ken one of the things that you brought up as differences before Between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians That relates to a question from one of our listeners

01:18:21

John and Bangor, Maine Says I have heard even on Chris's show

01:18:27

That one of the primary differences on understanding the Covenant Between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians is that Reformed Baptists believe that all who are truly in the

01:18:37

Covenant are regenerate whereas Presbyterians Not all but many

01:18:44

Believe that there are reprobate Unelect people that are truly in the

01:18:49

Covenant by virtue of their baptism, and I know that I've also heard Presbyterians on Chris's show who disagree with that But I think that the majority if I'm not mistaken believe that once you are baptized as an infant

01:19:02

Or otherwise you are a true member of the Covenant even if you turn out later to be

01:19:07

Reprobate is this a accurate distinction Well, that's a really big question and it really depends on what kind of meaning you're pouring into these words

01:19:21

I think we need to make a distinction in between election and Covenant the two certainly overlap in the

01:19:28

Church of Jesus Christ and the Westminster Confession of Faith Talks about the invisible and the visible

01:19:36

Church The invisible Church is the Church of all times and places that includes the elect

01:19:42

We can all agree that we find that we're going to find elect people in our churches

01:19:47

We're also going to find people that are not elect And those would be the reprobate

01:19:54

Secret things belong to God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and our children forever

01:20:00

How do we distinguish? Well, we can't do so infallibly We do so through The keys of the kingdom of God Insofar as we're able to discern credible profession or faith

01:20:16

Insofar as we're able to discern who should be brought into the Church of Jesus Christ via the sign of initiation

01:20:26

Neither of which we can know infallibly there are people who make credible professions of faith and are baptized

01:20:33

Afterwards and are proven to not be true Christians. They die outside of the faith as far as we know

01:20:41

So there is no certainty on either end Regarding those who are elect as being part of the covenant community

01:20:51

So the Presbyterians that I know Define covenant more broadly the covenant of grace

01:20:58

More broadly in in describing a community that includes it's a mixed community

01:21:04

And we find this mixed community in the Old Testament as well. This is where covenant theology

01:21:12

That begins in Genesis You know Christians who are sincere in their beliefs have differences of opinion we

01:21:21

Presbyterians believe that The covenant of grace begins in Genesis really begins in Genesis 3 15 and We see expressions of this covenant of grace unfolding

01:21:34

In the life of Abraham and his family and Abraham is given the sign of circumcision

01:21:40

He's told to circumcise not only himself as a convert But his children his sons in particular as well as his servants

01:21:50

In household be more specific and who was circumcised among his sons well

01:21:57

Ishmael was circumcised and so was Isaac We know we have every reason to believe that Ishmael is not elect that he is reprobate and yet He receives the sign of initiation

01:22:10

Here we see that covenant is Can include a visible sign but not necessarily the invisible reality because the

01:22:20

Old Testament in various places talks about a Circumcision of the heart and that circumcision the heart is not given to everybody it's given to the elect given to those whom are regenerate and We I would argue and I have in my book that that is a counterpart to being born again

01:22:39

Being regenerated in the New Testament not everybody who is baptized in the New Testament is regenerated and that includes those who receive

01:22:49

Baptism after they profess their faith as well as those who receive the sign seal before they profess their faith, so I do think that I I think going back to the question

01:23:04

Fairly complex and it really depends on how you define covenant, right?

01:23:10

The Reformed Baptists, of course, not all Reformed Baptists are unified either They have differences of opinion about covenant and there are even

01:23:19

What are called New Covenant theologian Baptists or New Covenant theology Baptists?

01:23:24

In fact, I was just at a conference in Franklin, Tennessee that they invited me to where I actually led the

01:23:32

Moderation between the speakers in the audience, even though they knew I was from a confessionally Reformed Covenantal Baptist Church they have even more of a stark contrast in view between the old and new covenants, but Reformed Baptists as far as I know,

01:23:48

I've never met one who didn't agree with this. It was amongst the covenant theologians we believe that Even though we may baptize someone that later turns out to be a reprobate

01:23:59

That person was never truly in the covenant Whereas from what

01:24:04

I understand as our as our listener was implying there are many Presbyterians not all but many who believe that you are truly in the covenant, even if you have turned out to be later on a reprobate revealed through your

01:24:21

Abandonment of Christ or your apostasy or your unrepentant wickedness or what have you?

01:24:27

So would that be correct that at least in your opinion that someone is truly in the covenant by virtue of their baptism either as an infant or otherwise and what one of the things that The Reformed Baptist is puzzled by is how

01:24:43

Christ mediates for such people who are truly in the covenant and yet are reprobate

01:24:50

Again I think it goes down to how we define covenant in which covenant we're talking about There's a third covenant that is not mentioned in the

01:24:58

Westminster Confession of Faith, but that most Presbyterian and Reformed hold to it's called the covenant of redemption

01:25:06

The covenant of redemption is behind the covenant of faith. I don't really get into this too much in my book

01:25:12

I think this is much more advanced Our discussion is fairly advanced for Those who who

01:25:21

I I would have been intended to buy the book But it's an important discussion Covenant of redemption is the covenant between the inner

01:25:30

Trinitarian covenant between God the Father God the Son And those from God the

01:25:36

Father is giving to God the Son of the elect their God their Christ sheep So there is this inner

01:25:43

Trinitarian covenant that is behind the covenant of grace and yet in the covenant of grace we discover that there are people who are given the sign of Entrance into the covenant of grace if you hold to it if you find the covenant of grace in the

01:25:57

Old Testament They receive the sign they they perhaps benefit from some of the external blessings of the covenant if you take

01:26:08

Hebrews chapter 6 that way being enlightening enlightened tasting of the fruit and whatnot, but not necessarily being of the substance

01:26:18

We would not say that that the reprobate have the substance of the covenant because they are not

01:26:26

Part of the invisible church. They are simply in the church And have some benefits and responsibilities that come with that external connection

01:26:36

But they would be the pairs that only God separates from the wheat.

01:26:42

So it's pretty complicated I think we have to define terms When we're talking about these things

01:26:49

By the way, I think I may have forgotten to inform the listeners that sent in questions You have all won a free copy of this book

01:26:56

Presbytopia By our guest and published by our friends at Christian focus publications who are kind enough to send these to us

01:27:05

So, please make sure that you give us your full mailing address So we can have CV BBS comm ship those out to you and no charge to you or to us

01:27:15

We have David and Ada, Ohio who says you mentioned Confessional churches.

01:27:20

I agree that confessions are a great way to learn about the teaching of the Bible However, because of the following I am careful in my use of the confessions

01:27:30

I don't understand the Bible to say that Eve deceived Adam any insight would be helpful.

01:27:37

God bless and he offers these quotes from Confessions from the 1644 first London Confession First Eve then

01:27:50

Adam being seduced did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and transgression of the commandment of their great creator and Then the 1689 or the second

01:28:03

London Baptist Confession says Satan using the subtlety of the certain to subdue Eve Then by her seducing

01:28:10

Adam and then the Philadelphia Confession of Faith, which is really an American Version of the 1689

01:28:17

London Baptist Confession Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve Then by her seducing

01:28:23

Adam These are all Baptist confessions, which are nearly identical to the

01:28:29

Presbyterian Westminster Confession Do you have any comments about what David said? I know that you're already talked about Confessions being human in origin.

01:28:37

They're not inerrant. They're not divinely inspired. But what do you have to say about his main point here? Oh I'm not sure

01:28:45

If I understand his main point correctly Is he he asserting that these confessions are saying different things or that they are?

01:28:55

Necessarily describing what Scripture is teaching. I think he's saying that he doesn't exegete from the

01:29:01

Bible the idea that Eve deceived Adam And I guess what he is saying is that Adam knew full well that he was wrong, but he followed her anyway

01:29:13

I'm assuming that's what he means because she was the first to physically commit the sin of Eating the forbidden fruit, but perhaps he is saying

01:29:21

I don't know this perhaps he could Send in a follow -up email to be more clear. But I think is what he's saying is that Adam knowingly sinned

01:29:31

And so therefore Eve did not deceive him Yeah, I mean,

01:29:36

I think this is a fine point I would I would encourage the reader or the

01:29:45

Questioner to look at a few chapters in the book because I'm again We're talking a lot about confessions on this program.

01:29:52

And I Certainly, I certainly appreciate the value of confessions.

01:29:57

I've taken vows to Uphold the confessions of my tradition, but I didn't write the book

01:30:04

So much to discuss confessions as to show why We believe what we believe from Scripture, and I think the confessions bear that out

01:30:16

But More specific to the question in the chapter on man and who he was

01:30:23

I spend that chapter not on confessional language but dealing with the story in Genesis chapter 2 and 3

01:30:33

Where I think if you take the scripture at face value, you see that the serpent was shrewd

01:30:40

Serpent went around the authority structure He spoke to the one that God did not make the covenant with God made the covenant with man and man was the federal head of the human race, which

01:30:51

I talked about in this chapter and he went around that structure and he

01:30:59

Convinced Eve He tempted her and she succumbed and then she gave to her husband who was with her very very striking words

01:31:09

You take those words at face value It would appear that Adam was with her the whole time and that he was passively going along and being deceived

01:31:20

When he should have exerted his headship and he didn't so I think the scripture bears out

01:31:27

Teaching that we find in these confessional documents and I make my argument from scripture

01:31:35

That's the point of the book because there are many people who will come into our churches who

01:31:41

May have never heard of the Westminster confession of faith and they might not care Because they might take the approach that well, it's a man -made document

01:31:50

I don't really care what somebody said 400 years ago. Tell me what the Bible teaches

01:31:56

Well, that's that's my purpose But my purpose is not only to tell you what the

01:32:01

Bible teaches but to show you that what we believe is Reformed and Presbyterian Christians, which elsewhere we outline in our creeds and confessions is indeed biblical we have

01:32:17

Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York Who asks why do you think as a

01:32:24

Jewish believer yourself? There are so few Jews in ministry in Reformed denominations and fellowships

01:32:34

That's a really good question. I I'm going to be totally giving you my opinions off the cuff on this one

01:32:43

I do think that some of the Messianic Jewish movements that have taken root in our country have had dispensational

01:32:56

Backgrounds and I believe that some of that has to do with the view of seeing the fulfillment of prophecy in in the

01:33:08

Formation and the continuance of the nation of Israel from the 1940s forward And there's some differences of opinion on that to be sure

01:33:18

There are many people outside of the Reformed tradition that label us replacement theologians

01:33:23

Meaning that we see no value for the for Israel anymore rather We we replace them with the church and I think that's oversimplification

01:33:35

What we a better way to explain what we believe or what most of us believe is type and fulfillment

01:33:43

Theologians, we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ has always existed. It's existed since well not always but it's existed since The garden and It took

01:33:55

It developed and took roots in in one couple eventually blossoming in one family the family of Abraham and Extending into a nation the children of Jacob his sons who became tribes and From that one nation

01:34:17

The kingdom of God, which is the Church of Jesus Christ is a window into the kingdom of God Is revealed in all tribes and nations not

01:34:29

Geopolitical ones rather but people from all tribes and nations. So there's some discontinuity as well

01:34:36

In the New Testament, but what we see is a growth we see these called -out people this communion of faith these gathered one, whatever however way you want to Define the

01:34:52

Cahal the Ecclesia the church And we see it growing and expanding and diversifying and even

01:35:00

Israel had a mission To the Gentiles that Israel defaulted on I would argue that she was to be a light to the

01:35:08

Gentiles And when you read Isaiah chapter 49, you see that God would send another one who'd be a light to the

01:35:16

Gentiles So in a sense Jesus is not only the second Adam, but he is also the true

01:35:22

Israel That's a very important way of understanding the temptation narratives to see that Jesus is not simply responding with the

01:35:30

Word of God to Satan But he's responding with specific passages where Israel failed

01:35:36

And he succeeded So That's a long answer to to the questioner's question

01:35:44

But I do think that there's a reason why there are so many dispensational Messianic Jews and that's because they want to see

01:35:53

Specific meaning with the nation of Israel today. I find it a very interesting act of providence

01:36:00

But rather than jumping from the Old Testament to the nation of Israel I would want to read the fulfillment of prophecy through the

01:36:09

New Testament Amen. Yes, and I always find it fascinating and puzzling baffling that so many

01:36:17

Messianic Jews Reject the notion of unconditional election when that is at the heart of the

01:36:25

Old Covenant Not in a salvific way when regarding the physical earthly nation of Israel They were elect as a people in a physical sense

01:36:41

And of course those who were truly God's People were also elect

01:36:48

Unconditionally in a spiritual sense, but the fact that they totally disregard God choosing without any notion of the merits of those people

01:36:59

Why that would be dismissed in the New Covenant is a it's just baffling to me because It seems that that they should they have of all people should be ready to receive that teaching

01:37:10

Is it what is what I made it was what I said made sense to you Yeah, and I think we all read the

01:37:18

Bible through a lens The chapter 1 which talks about standards some people do you know usually when you think of tradition you think of In the in the old in the

01:37:32

Old Testament Scribes and Pharisees and in the

01:37:37

Church of Jesus Christ you think of churches with holy tradition like Roman Catholicism Eastern Orthodoxy, but really we have our own forms of tradition of holy tradition which

01:37:51

That's usually reserved for worship, but but we we have our lenses We read the

01:37:56

Bible through our tradition, it's it's very hard Dan Till Talks about our presuppositions.

01:38:04

It's very hard to approach a text Neutrally because we all we all have biases and as do many

01:38:12

Messianic Jews as do us And of course when it comes to so -called replacement theology,

01:38:18

I don't I can't even recall hearing an Amillennialist or post -millennialist ever refer to themselves in those terms as replacement because it really conjures up Anti -semitic ideas as if the

01:38:32

Gentiles replaced the Jews or you know like an Anglo -Israeli or some kind of bizarre

01:38:39

Teaching that is definitely racist. This is not what we at all are Saying and would that be also something you would concur with?

01:38:49

absolutely, I think there's been incidents like The church

01:38:56

I attended in Escondido when I was a student Recently had an incident a young man of the church

01:39:04

Was involved in a shooting as synagogue is very tragic terrible evil thing that happened and some of the articles

01:39:14

Online about it were written by Christians Criticizing the Reformed tradition for its replacement theology with Foster's Anti -semitism or at least it could and I disagree with that.

01:39:27

I really do. I think that Christians are called to love all people Unconditionally not everybody is going to believe what we believe and To say to make that accusation to me seems frivolous reckless and certainly

01:39:50

I'm an example of Israel coming to Christ There are latter -day

01:40:00

Jews and there have been through various periods in the church now I do believe that sin has played a role that perhaps over the centuries and in Jews not coming as as widely as as one would think there was a lot of anti -semitism for centuries

01:40:21

And and and that's very real and and I think I think very important to not forget about yes

01:40:28

And ironically, there are many Post -millennialists and amillennialists that have a higher hope for the

01:40:36

Jewish people than dispensationalists do because many of both of those groups non -dispensational groups believe that the

01:40:44

Jews in mass The majority if not all Will eventually come to Christ those who are alive on this earth prior to the return of Christ, so There there will be a great revival amongst the

01:40:59

Jews that we are yet awaiting Whereas those who are pre tribulation will seem to have a much more dismal future in mind for the

01:41:06

Jewish people Yeah, there's a quite a lot of opinions about the role that Israel plays today

01:41:14

The expectation of Either a national or just a widespread conversion or or less or seeing the nation of Israel's Providential curiosity, which is wonderful from a common -grace standpoint.

01:41:32

It's wonderful for For for Jewish people to be able to have a homeland they can live in.

01:41:38

There's nothing anti -semitic about that I'm very happy for for Israel existing as as a

01:41:45

Jew as a Jewish Christian, so I Think we have to be very careful about Making these accusations against each other especially in light of Tragic events like we have with this shooting in Poway, California, right?

01:42:02

We have to go to our final break right now It's much more brief than the last one If you want to send us a question do it immediately to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:42:09

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away we'll be right back with Ken Golden after these messages from our sponsors and Please remember

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01:42:33

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You Got to tell you for my money Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best

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I think that's what it's called This is Todd Friel of wretched radio and TV with Phil Johnson of grace to you inviting

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Everybody to come to the g3 conference, which has almost Instantly become one of the best conferences in the country and it is it's a great conference.

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I love it And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there. I think every year. It's great to see him there

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You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place Which is a highlight tons of stuff going on Yeah, tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building.

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Phil me Chris and a Cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me g3 conference calm

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Law Journal If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

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I recommend that you call Dan Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win

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Dan but a few goes number is 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 or email me for Dan's contact information at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:51:04

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

01:51:15

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man,

01:51:22

I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

01:51:28

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

01:51:36

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

01:51:41

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

01:51:46

Apostles priority, it must not be ours either We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

01:52:01

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:52:08

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 That's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

01:52:20

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01:52:26

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01:52:51

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Spread the word about first love radio .org Welcome back.

01:54:03

This is Chris Arnzen. And this is the final few moments of our interview with Ken golden David once again from Ada, Ohio wanted to clarify his question statement

01:54:14

My question is that it seems the confessions are at odds with what the Bible says Adding to what the

01:54:20

Bible says by saying that Eve deceived Adam, but I don't see that the Bible says

01:54:26

Adam was deceived I understand what you're saying is like for instance in 1st Timothy 2 14 we read that As and it was not

01:54:36

Adam who was deceived but the woman being deceived fell into transgression and that's why women are not

01:54:41

To hold offices in the church and have authority over men But but we're gonna have to address this in a deeper fashion

01:54:49

David when we have as our primary discussion Confessions of faith so you could join us with those same questions later on in the future

01:54:57

In fact, I someday hope to do a whole week on confessions with different representations Different representatives

01:55:04

I should say of the different confessions for a whole week. So Keep your eyes and ears open for that Ken I want you to now conclude the program with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

01:55:17

Right, so I think this has been a very Stimulating discussion. I always appreciate

01:55:24

Your interviewing skills Chris do an excellent job on your program. Thank you and I think it's been a

01:55:34

It's hard to predict sometimes where the discussion is going What I would leave our

01:55:41

Listeners with is that this book even though we've talked about Confessions and some some more extensive theology.

01:55:49

The purpose of this book is not To to have this high discussion.

01:55:56

It's really to introduce people To what it means to be a reformed in Presbyterian Christian book is written in such a way that You don't have to have prior knowledge of these things.

01:56:09

It's written to the lay person It's written to somebody who's visiting the church perhaps for the first time and sees this book on the book table and rather than being

01:56:20

Confronted with all of these confessional documents. They're confronted with a book that takes them through various teachings of the

01:56:28

Bible and Seeks to defend what we believe biblically biblical theological arguments from Genesis to Revelation Under the various heads of doctrine, so we have the essentials

01:56:44

We have the reformed distinctives and we have the means of grace and I tried to Make all of these chapters about what

01:56:53

God is teaching in his word And I think if you compare that with our confessions, you'll find compatibility

01:56:59

And you'll see that the confessions were written to be biblical Despite the fact that there are human documents and we have differences of opinion

01:57:11

We believe as reformed Presbyterians that we have a we have a good Handle on what scripture teaches.

01:57:18

Otherwise, I wouldn't be a Presbyterian minister and I want other people to be excited

01:57:25

About our tradition without having to read Extensively before they come to worship at our church

01:57:33

You should not have to have an advanced degree in Christianity in order to become a reformed or Presbyterian Christian So that's my goal is to introduce people to our tradition

01:57:45

To help them see that what we're really trying to do is flesh out the scriptures

01:57:52

Find Our identity in God's Word. Amen. Well, I want to remind our listeners on how they can get this book

01:58:00

Presbytopia what it means to be Presbyterian. First of all, if you live in the United States Please go to our sponsors

01:58:07

CVBBS .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com if you live in the

01:58:12

United Kingdom The the least expensive way to purchase the book would be from the publisher

01:58:18

Christian focus Publications, that's Christian focus calm Christian focus calm.

01:58:25

We want to once again. Thank Donnie at Christian focus for supplying these books for us absolutely free of charge to give away to our listeners who wrote in questions and If you live in the

01:58:39

Davenport, Iowa area or intend to visit there or have family friends and loved ones in that area

01:58:45

Please don't forget about the Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Davenport, Iowa and their website is sovgraceopc .org

01:58:55

SOV as in victory grace OPC which stands for Orthodox Presbyterian Church org sovgraceopc .org

01:59:05

Thank you so much Ken Golden for being our guest today Thank you all of you who took the time to write in questions, especially but also everyone who took the time to listen today