Abortion (Special Guests Apryl Abbott & Kaylee Dillon) | S6 E10

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00:01

Okay well welcome back everybody to the Point Taken Christian Podcast. We are glad to have you here today.

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If you have not seen our videos before, thank you for joining us. Please subscribe, like this video, and share.

00:14

I will go ahead and add a brief disclaimer if you have not noticed at the title already that we will be discussing abortion today.

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We have one of our church members who has actually had a couple of abortions herself who is willing to share her testimony.

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So we are going to be kind of graphic in these conversations, so just you know plan for that accordingly.

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But otherwise let's go ahead and introduce our guests. So we have you know Jeffrey over here, even though it's not really his name, it's just Jeff.

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He's one of our recurring guests that we just love having on. And then over to his right, my left, we have

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April and she's going to be sharing her testimony today. And then Kaylee, one of our other girls that go to our church.

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I guess you're not a girl, you're a woman. Hello. You're a woman. Some of our church members who are willing to come on and share their opinions and also biblical insight on abortion.

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So we'll go ahead and get started with how you guys kind of viewed abortion, like growing up, through life, if that's changed at all.

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I'll go ahead and start. And I think I've shared this on previous podcasts before, but if you've never seen it, you know this doesn't matter.

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One of the things that like I always knew abortion was wrong in the sense that like I would never do it for myself.

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I didn't care if other people did it because that was like what was best for them, but it's like for thee but not for me type thing.

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So I really didn't have a problem with it until I was in, I was already married, so I was in like my early 20s, and my husband and I got started on the topic of abortion.

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And I was just like, I don't know, I just don't really have like a problem with it all the time. You know like in those certain scenarios of where it's like rape or incest or you know like a single mom who already has multiple kids, you know like all these things, but like I would just never do it.

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But if someone else does it, like I can't judge them on that. And so we had a deep conversation about that, and he showed me a video.

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It's called the silent scream. I don't know if any of you have seen that. We'll actually link to that video below in our description so you guys can watch that for yourself.

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But that was a game -changer for me, 100%. So I was, you know, once okay with it, and then in some situations, and now

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I'm not okay in all situations. Same. So it's kind of how I am. About say Kaylee or April, did y 'all want to go next?

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I mean my situation was probably the same. Growing up, we didn't really hear about abortion and stuff like that, so I never really knew.

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I knew what it was, but I never thought more past that's what it is and that's it.

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I didn't really have an opinion on it, but once I got older and I started having friends who were old enough to have abortions and things, and they were having them, then it became more relevant

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I guess to my life, as I would say. And I watched the silent scream video when

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I was, I don't know, probably 18 or 19, and I always had the opinion of that's wrong and nobody should ever do it no matter what.

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But I'm so empathetic and sympathetic that I felt bad for the people that had to go through that and that have had those situations, that I understood why they were doing it.

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I just know I could never do it. Right. Well, I will go on that point. Before the silent scream,

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I really didn't know what abortion was, like what happened in the process of an abortion. I just knew it was like a termination of a pregnancy, you know, that's what they talk about.

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So that really opened my eyes of what it was. I've never seen it still. I don't think I've ever seen it. So Lowell hasn't seen it either.

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We talked about it. So now when this episode comes out, like I mean, it's graphic.

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Just the title alone is pretty graphic. Right. Well, but it's actually showing the process of an abortion.

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So a woman's legs up on the stirrups, getting the aspiration done, like all of it. So it is, it's not an illustration.

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It is like an actual procedure. So that's the thing. It's like to consider when you watch it.

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And I will tell you, if you have, like and you know, use your discernment with your own children.

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If you have teenagers especially, have them watch this video. Watch it for yourselves and then judge if your children should watch it at a certain age.

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But I think like everyone needs to watch it. Like I said, Lowell hadn't seen it either. And he's like, it's not that like I didn't want to watch it.

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It's like, I don't know, I'm not never in like a, I don't want to like bring my mood down. Yeah. And then when

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I'm down, I don't want to like bring me further down. So it's like kind of in the middle. And I'm like, I totally understand that because you know that you're going to be watching something that will destroy you.

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Right. Essentially. But, right. We'll go ahead and go into you April. I mean, you know, I had to ask myself why

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I was even willing to do this. Honestly, because it is such a sensitive topic for so many people and for myself now.

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And there's two reasons why. I think now more than ever, I'm more inspired about women fully walking into the fullness of who

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God wants them to be. Like fully. And two, because there was a time not long ago where I would have been the parent driving my daughter to have an abortion if I did not receive the

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Word of God the way that I have received it lately. And I'm extremely thankful for that.

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So with that being said, I have had an abortion. I've had a couple actually.

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And my first one, my recollection of it is, you know, my grandmother raised me.

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I got pregnant. I was 15. And she put me in the backseat of the car and she drove me straight to the abortion clinic.

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And it wasn't up for debate. It wasn't something that we were going to talk about. It was a matter of fact this is going to happen.

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And I would have done the same thing to Ava, you know, before I got the

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Word. And Pastor Christian, man, this morning, oh it was so good, wasn't it?

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It was so good. He said, with a tender heart I can face fear with power. And that resonated with me so much because this topic in itself there's a lot of fear for it for me because I don't want to say something that is insensitive to someone's feelings or if someone's going through that right now or if they're about to have one or if they just took a plan

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B. There's so many emotions that are involved with this topic. But my husband told me this morning, if the

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Bible hurts your feelings, then you're getting the Word. Because literally that's what it does. It offends people.

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It does. It offends you. I now definitely think that abortions are wrong.

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I think that having sex before marriage is wrong. And if you put yourself in that situation, then you need to learn to deal with it.

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But that was not for a long time what I thought. Sanctification.

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I love it. Man. Jeffrey, where do you stand or where did you stand? So I'm actually kind of more in line with Kaylee.

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I don't even know when I figured out what abortion was. I don't know if I was in middle school or what age.

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I don't remember ever really talking about abortion with my parents or just ever learning what abortion is.

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I don't think I ever thought of it fondly or accepted that sometimes it was necessary.

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And then I had experience. How old was I? I would have been probably just into college.

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So just into college. I actually had a buddy of mine at the time.

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I was really trying to witness and minister to him. And his girlfriend was like, hey,

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I'm going to have an abortion. And he was like, hey, look, you know, he was much more of the, hey, look, like, you know,

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I know you're not in no way ready to take care of it. I can do that. You know, you just take it to term.

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You can visit the child whenever you would like. Whatever you want, just please don't have the abortion.

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You know, I would like to have my child and all this stuff. And I remember I went to him to the

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Planned Parenthood to like, you know, kind of go talk to her. And she basically said, you know, screw you.

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She had it. Yeah, she did. And that really stunk. But that's a very nice way to say that.

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It was a terrible time. But other than that, I don't have really, of course, experience with that, with abortion.

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And to be honest, it's only been negative. And I've never really thought about it in a positive way.

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So I haven't really had my mind changed about it. I mean, I do feel sympathetic, of course, to people who are a rape victim or a victim of something.

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But I guess we'll talk about those topics further on about how we all view those topics and possible solutions.

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And you know, I go back to that, like the whole Planned Parenthood thing. Had they had been able to open a

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Bible, because there's, it's a Christian -based, you know, they talk. No way. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

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Yes, it is. I'm about to say either way, no matter what is on their website there. Yeah, for sure.

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But they talk to you about certain things. The only thing they don't do is open the Bible in front of you.

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They do, they try to persuade your decision. I mean, that's what they try to do.

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It is Planned Parenthood that... No, you're thinking Life Choices. Life Choices.

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I'm sorry. That is very different. Okay, you're right. You're right. Life Choices is a pro -life organization.

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It's a trauma, a pregnancy trauma center, not trauma. What am I trying to say? You know what

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I'm trying to say? Yes, it's not crisis, but it's... No, I think it's a crisis center. But they still refer you to where you need to be.

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Yes. If you don't make up your mind either way, they still refer you to the next step, but they try to really talk you out of...

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Life Choices. Yes, Life Choices. I apologize. Because they will have that. I've toured

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Life Choices, and we've done fundraisers for Life Choices at our church before, and if you're not local, this is a local organization for pro -life.

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Yeah, they're like next door to Planned Parenthood. But they still never open their Bible, which

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I don't think they can. I don't know why. They actually...so I've been back in the last handful of years, and they said that they will actually open scripture and counsel women.

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So I don't know how long ago you ended up going and what things were changed since then, but they're also an adoption organization.

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So if some of these women who don't end up having an abortion, they will come in and say,

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I don't want to have an abortion, but I can't care for this baby. And so they'll end up putting their babies up for adoption through the organization.

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Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a big thing that Life Choices does, is they help people get an adoption to a good family and not just, you know, the government.

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Yeah, and so they'll also provide other things for the women, like other...I'm

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like blanking out. Sorry, I have pregnancy brain, so words aren't coming. Yeah, they give like... Resources.

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Yeah, they'll give pregnancy resources. If you decide to keep your baby, they have like parenting classes that you can take.

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They have like a store that you can go to within the facility, and like you earn dollars essentially by like going to these classes, and then you can earn that money to buy certain products that you need.

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So they have like baby swings or baby clothes and things like that. So they really, they...and

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I was actually going to mention them later, but you brought them up now, so I'll go ahead and talk about them. They are...and this isn't just this pregnancy center that does this.

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Like there are others all over the country, and it is just such a blessing to see how they are blessing other women and giving their child a chance at life.

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So I just think it's awesome. But yeah, but Planned Parenthood, and we will go into that later of how, like what they said to you whenever you got your abortions and stuff, but first I wanted to start off with what does

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Scripture say? And I know that all of us have Scripture on this, so I'll go first, and then we can kind of just jump in however we want, and then we can talk about this too.

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But so I'm reading from, and you know I just have it written down on my paper, but I wrote it down from Scripture today.

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Genesis 127, so God created man in His own image. In the image of God He created him, male and female

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He created them. And then Genesis 9 -6, whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed.

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For in the image of God, God has made mankind. And I just think that, you know people always say in the aspect of abortion, like oh it's not a baby, like it's just you know the clump of cells, like we hear that all the time.

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But it says that God created man in His own image. Like we have a purpose. He was very intentional with us in how we were created.

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And then one thing, and I'll quote from this pastor too, and we'll have this sermon linked in the description below if y 'all want to listen to it.

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You can either read it or listen to it. But going on Genesis 9 -6, it talks about whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed.

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For in the image of God, God made mankind. And this is a quote from John Piper. The reason

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Genesis 9 is so important in affirming that all humanity is made in the image of God, is that it came after the

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Flood. Thus it reinforces what was spoken at the beginning of creation. How many years were between creation and the

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Flood? Like it was several, it was generations. Pete - Yeah, it would be generations. Kirsten - Like hundreds of years between.

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And so it talks about, He reinforces what was spoken in the beginning that we were all created in God's image.

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And that like blood needs to be shed if you take blood of another. And so it says the killing of human beings created in the image of God is so serious that it warrants being killed by governments that bear the sword not in vain.

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And that's a quote from Romans 13. So I don't know. I just, I think that's so powerful, is that like it should be punished.

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This is not something that should just be overlooked. Like Scripture says that you should be punished for taking blood of another.

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And then also, he goes on to say that there is no difference in the terminology of a baby in the womb versus outside the womb, in that in Scripture they're treated basically the same.

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So it's like, so why do we treat this like, you know, I'm 24 weeks pregnant today filming this, and it's like, so why do we treat this different than, you know, your three -month -old nephew?

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Pete - Right. Kirsten - And so, I don't know. I just think it's wild. Yeah, going off of that, that's just like, I had a conversation with somebody the other day about how you can have the abortion and that's not considered murder because it's your choice.

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But then if you, if you being pregnant were in a car accident and somebody killed you and the baby, it would double homicide.

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So how, like, that's the part where, where's the line? Like, where's the, how

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I would - Kirsten - Is it just not my, is it just because it's not my choice? Kirsten - How I would argue that is it's a justification.

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Someone's trying to make themselves feel better about the decision that they're making, and it's like, well,

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I was actually looking up some stuff in preparation of this podcast, and I went on Pinterest just to see if there were, like, any blog articles of, like, other people sharing their stories and stuff, and I, so I typed in abortion in the search bar, and I laughed because the first image that popped up was, like, a graphic design of, like, abortion affirmations, and it was, like, you know, it's what's best for you, and it's, like, it's okay if you don't want to have children right now or ever, and I'm, like, no,

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I, it's, like, I agree with some of the statements that were listed in here. It's, like, it's okay if you never want to be a parent.

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Like, parenting is not for everybody, and there are actually some people who should not be parents. That's just my personal opinion, but that's another podcast for another day, but with that being said, it's, like, it's, it's selfish, and it's all about you, and, like, and I'll, and I'll share this.

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When I found out I was pregnant with this baby, this baby was not planned, and, you know, people can come for me, like, how do you not plan?

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Like, you know, things happen. It happens. The baby's here, you know, the baby's in my belly now, like, huge, huge blessing, but I remember like,

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I was six days late, and so at this point, I had just stopped nursing my son, like, a month or so before.

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Oh, my goodness. So, I still hadn't, like, regulated, like, with my cycle. It was still kind of, like, a few days late here and there, so I was, like, five days late the month before, and then, so I'm six days late.

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I'm, like, oh, you know, it's, it's gonna come, and I was just, like, surprise. I knew,

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I knew, and I was so stubborn. Like, I told my husband, I said, I think I'm gonna wait an extra day so I can be seven days late, and then, like, really, no, and so I ended up going to get a test, like, and, like, have my, my son was 14 months at this time, so just over a year, and I remember going to the store and picking up a pregnancy test, and then coming home and taking it immediately, because, like,

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I just could not wait. I'm, like, I had to, I had to know. I just, you know, I already waited six days, you know, I can't wait any more time, so I remember taking the test in our bathroom, and my son was, like, crawling around on the floor playing in our drawers and stuff that we have in the bathroom, just, like, completely oblivious to what is happening around him, and I remember, like,

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I put the test in the sink so, like, it wouldn't be on the counter for me to see it, and I remember, like, glancing at it and seeing the two lines, and I was just, like, maybe

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I didn't see that. Maybe that's not what I saw, and, like, I was not laughing in my head at this time.

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I was, like, low -key freaking out, and I remember, like, after the three minutes or whatever that it said, like,

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I looked at it, and it went, had double lines, and I stood there and had no reaction. I was so upset, and I've talked to Pastor Josiah about this before.

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I said, I understand where women feel like they need to have an abortion, and that they want one.

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I said, and he, we had had this conversation. In the conversation, he's like, yeah, because it's not just a nine -month commitment.

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It is a lifetime commitment, and then if, like, you know, you not only carry the child for nine months, then you have to birth the child, and then you have to recover from that.

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And even if you don't choose to. And you weren't recovered yet either. Right, like, even if you choose to give that baby up for adoption, your body has a year, at least a year, if not longer, to regulate back to pre -baby.

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Well, and that's the thing, and it's, like, and I had stopped nursing, like, one month before that, and, like,

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FYI, I was not using nursing as birth control, like, so many people think that I probably did, because some people do that.

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That was not for me. But that being said, like, I literally had one month of, like, my body back to myself, and that was another thing.

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I was so upset about that. I'm like, I wanted more to, like, we weren't going to start trying until, like, another year, and this is, like, not what

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I wanted, and because my, our first son was planned, like, we intentionally, you know, tried to have a baby, and, um,

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I got pregnant soon after that. And so, with this, like, I don't do well when things aren't in my control, like, I feel like most of us do.

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And so, I just really struggled with that, because I nursed my son for just over a year. Yeah.

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And so, I'm, like, knowing, like, I had a bad recovery with my son, and so, like, knowing what

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I was going to go through again, just, like, I know this is going to sound dramatic, but, like, bear with me, like, this was a really, you know, difficult time in my life.

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I, like, it felt like PTSD. Okay, now. Like, I was dreading those times. Okay, now, take that feeling.

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15. And, yeah, make you a young, unmarried girl.

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Right. Because you're not a woman yet at that point at all, you know. You have to take that feeling and magnify that, and then you don't have, well, for me.

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Support. That's exactly what I was about to say. My dad was incarcerated at the time. My grandmother had custody of me.

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My mother was not there, and it was very selfish, but that was the life that I was leading.

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I was leading a very selfish life. Like, I mean, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. And then, take that, and then take a guy saying, oh, hey, guess what?

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I don't want a kid either. I'll pay for it. And now you have someone co -signing the fact that you already don't want to do this, and then it just makes it go away.

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And that is something that so many women face today, because we are living in such a worldly world, an unjustice world, that it's okay if you make a mistake and you have sex to just go fix it later when you find out.

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And that's unfortunately not the way that God would have it. Because it's not even just normalized anymore.

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It's actually what's the word? Common? Pushed. Not common. It's encouraged for people to go ahead and, well, if you make this mistake, it's okay.

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You can just take care of it. And that's with anything, not even just abortion. Like, there's no consequences anymore for anybody's actions.

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But there are still consequences that are long -term that people don't, that they don't understand.

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Like, I'm now 40 years old, and I just had a baby two years ago.

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And on the paper, they say, how many pregnancies have you had? How many deliveries? And then it hits you.

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Yeah. And you're like, hmm. Well, they'll ask you about miscarriages. And then, like, my

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OB, since I'm, how many lives births? Because, like, they have that survey. How many abortions have you had?

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Yeah. Because that matters. It does. It's like, it affects you being able to get pregnant later on. You have other complications, depending on how many abortions you've had in the past.

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The scar tissue. Right. And so, and that's what a lot of people don't understand, is because they're not taught, first of all, what an abortion is.

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And then, second, what the... Say it again. Right. It's like, people are not, they're not taught. They're not. They're not taught. And I wasn't even taught until Pastor Josiah came to me and asked if we would be on the podcast.

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And we were like, well, what are we going to talk about? And so, we were throwing up all these ideas. To see if they would stick.

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And then, I was like, well, what's your take on abortion? And she was like, absolutely not.

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That's how we knew. And I was like, that's it. You know, not that it's a comfortable thing to talk about.

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But I understand why people do it. I do. The only thing that ever upset me prior to was, like,

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I had a girlfriend who it just seemed like every couple of months she was turning around and having one.

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And I remember, like, then feeling convicted for her. Like, this just isn't right.

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Like, you probably need to be doing something different. You know, this is not working out for you. And that was all pre -conversion.

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Yes. You didn't even know any of the truth or anything. I didn't know. You were just, morally. Right. But I still, it's still hard for me now.

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Like, okay, we all sin, right? And, you know, sin's a sin, but the punishment for the sins.

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Like, if we go back, back in the day, you know, like, if one person stole compared to if someone murdered, their punishments were different.

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Their punishments were more harsh. Like, capital punishment. Right. You know, in this sense it says in what he quotes

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Romans 13, sorry, the killing of humanity being created in the image of God is so serious that it warrants being killed by governments.

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And so, it's like, yeah, there are harsher punishments for different crimes, you know.

25:24

Absolutely. Right, yeah. So, there's, like, different consequences for each sin, but something actually kind of interesting is in the

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Old Testament there were capital punishments, right? So, if you think about it, David, right, committed two capital punishments, but was not capitally punished.

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Right. Why? He repented. Exactly. Which, because in the

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Old Testament it said there are no sacrifices to cover these sins. Right.

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Only God can forgive. But even in the Old Testament, David said, true, but a repentant heart you will never turn away.

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Right. So, while correct, there are human consequences, right?

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There are always human consequences for any action, good or bad, right? There's just cause and effect.

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There is, in this message, I feel like for a certain group of people may need to be heard, there is always,

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God will never turn away a repentant heart. There is always, there's no outstanding, there's no, wow,

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I, you know, maybe have had an abortion and now I'm worthless. I'm ruined. Yeah, I'm ruined.

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You know, that is never seen in Scripture. There is no, you know, evidence or God ever speaking to somebody.

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It is a repentant and contrite heart. God will never turn away, you know. Yeah, because God knows your heart and He knows if you're,

26:48

I mean, if you're just saying it so that you can get out of that punishment or if you truly are changed and are repentant in your heart.

26:59

Yes, yep. Well, did y 'all want to go ahead and share your Scriptures really quick and then we can just go straight into your testimony?

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Because I want you to. I mean, mine is Jeremiah 1, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you before you were born.

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I sanctified you. Can I add something on that? Yes. I remember being pregnant with our first son and, like,

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I don't know. This is different for everyone. I never really feel, like, bonded with a baby until, like,

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I know who they are, like, gender -wise and then, like, I can name them and then I was very intentional of praying for certain things with our firstborn son and just, like, certain personalities, certain attributes that he would have and, like him,

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I was like, like, God, I just want him to be friendly and then, like, that will just attract people to him and so that he can be the light to him.

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He, we went to my husband's grandma's house, they call her

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Ninny, and they had some dogs over there and he, like, the dog's laying on the ground, he squats down on the ground, he says, hi, doggie, hi, and then anyone else that he sees, he will wave at and he is so friendly and that's, like,

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I can see that that was an answered prayer. Oh, yeah. But it's, like, God knits us together in our mother's womb.

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Like, whenever conception happens, like, DNA is created. Like, God has formed that human being and it was intentional about that.

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It has certain attributes of the mom and certain attributes of the dad and characteristics and qualities, all of these things that are so intentional and it says right there in Jeremiah, so Old Testament, thousands of years ago, that our creation was so intentional in our mother's wombs.

28:45

So, I don't know, I just wanted to mention that. Well, the knit together, it goes into my verse. So, it's Psalms 139, 13.

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For it was you who created my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb.

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And then I have Psalm 139, 16, and it was your eyes saw me when

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I was formless, all my days were written in your book and planned before a single one of them began.

29:13

So, yeah, I mean, he knit you together, just like you were saying, with all the attributes that are needed, or not necessarily needed, but that will,

29:23

I don't know how to say it, like, just bring... He has a purpose for us.

29:30

Yeah, the purpose and everything. Well, and finding out, you know, my boys will be 22 months apart and that age gap really, like, freaked me out because I'm like, oh my gosh,

29:38

I'm gonna have two under two for, like, two months, you know, like, I was freaking out. But I'm like...

29:44

Yeah, like you're teaching one to sit down and be quiet and the other one to walk and talk. Right, yeah. I would say that with my two boys so I can relate.

29:52

But that's my point is, God, I was like, obviously God has a plan. This would not have happened, like,

29:58

I would not have gotten pregnant if God did not intend for this to carry on. I'm like, my boys will have each other in this world that is going downhill, like, you know, hell in a hand basket, like we say.

30:09

And, like, I know that he has a purpose for that, whether it's in my timing or not. And so, that's what that scripture talks about, is he has a purpose.

30:17

Go ahead. Jared And so, on that, when you, I guess, re -read, you know,

30:23

Genesis 1 -27, talking about how we're in the image of God. Genesis 9 -6, talking about how important it is and you shed the blood of somebody who's in the image of God and that has an innate value, right?

30:35

And God, you know, knit each person together in their mother's womb.

30:41

So, God, you know, there's a value put on every single person's life. Beth No matter in the womb or at the womb.

30:48

Jared Right. And you compare that with how, you know, the former president of Planned Parenthood speaks about unborn children, and it's the exact opposite.

30:57

Beth Which, what did they say? Jared So, her name was Cecile, and she said that, she was asked, so when does life matter come into the picture of abortion?

31:09

And she's shockingly said, why would it come into, you know, it's not in the conversation, that's not a variable to consider, it is 100 % the woman's choice.

31:22

And so, she was saying that to empower women as like, hey, this is all you, this is your power, this is your choice, 100%, there are no other variables, right?

31:34

It's not about, you know, when life starts, you know, it's about when life starts to matter. And so, she, you know, was a firm believer that, you know, abortions during birth were perfectly fine.

31:47

If you change your mind during birth, it's totally fine to have an abortion. It doesn't matter what your problem is, doesn't matter what your reason is, it's no one's business what your reason is.

31:57

Beth I don't agree with that, nor have I ever agreed with that. That is just insane to me. That's crazy. There are some states who

32:03

I think you have 24 to 48 hours to decide after birth, and they will literally cut their spinal cord off.

32:10

Not anymore. After they're born? No way. So, when you - It's not in all states, but like, look it up, it's -

32:16

Surely that's not a thing now. I've never heard that in my whole life. There are some states who still do that. Yeah, so when you just look at that viewpoint against what

32:25

God has obviously set as His viewpoint, I can't agree. No matter -

32:31

This is the hard part for a lot of people, and you know, all of us are fairly sympathetic people. No matter your circumstances, right?

32:38

So, no matter your circumstances, God's Word doesn't change, right?

32:43

Unless God had put like, unless you're having a real hard day, you know? And that's the unfair, you know, thing that life is sometimes unfair, but who's it more unfair for?

32:56

The person who was just murdered or - The innocent person who was just murdered. Right. So, I mean, that's why, you know,

33:04

Pastor Christian said it today. He's like, look, Christian doesn't want to offend you, but I believe what the

33:10

Bible says, so I will say it. It doesn't matter what your situation is. While I can be empathetic,

33:17

Jeff, I am very empathetic and sympathetic, and I personally believe that this is where the church has failed, right?

33:25

The church was given the responsibility to take care of people in need, right? So, for a long time, the church has not done a very good job with it.

33:35

And so, that is where every Christian should hold the picket sign at Planned Parenthood, should look in the mirror and say, okay, what have we done?

33:47

How have we failed also in this exact situation that we haven't been the, do you need help, you know, having this kid?

33:56

Do you need help? Right. There's no support for them. True, right. So, there is a, while it may still be wrong, we should be known more for what we can do and what we are for rather than what we hate and what we do not agree with, right?

34:15

So, if we're like, oh, Christians, oh, they're anti -abortion. No, no, no. We're pro -rights and freedom for all people, right?

34:24

Everybody is made in the image of God, so every single person would be of the same value.

34:30

No matter wealth, no matter anything, everybody is on the exact same plane, and that's what we should be known for, not, oh, they don't like this, they don't do this, they don't like, no, no, no.

34:41

We need to be consistent around all of it, so. Right, and if we're not willing to help, why are we complaining that, you know, that our country is going away we don't like, you know, if you're not willing to participate, if you're not willing to help?

34:53

Right. I mean, the thing about it is when you, going back to, I mean,

34:58

I wrote this in my Bible this morning. When you put something before God, you will hurt the people around you.

35:07

When you sin, there is injustice. The solution has been what it always has been, repent.

35:15

You seek the Lord and you seek humility. So, you repent, you seek the

35:22

Lord, you seek humility. So much comes from doing that, forgiveness, being able to heal.

35:29

Oh, man. Yeah. Or start to. Find joy during the hard times, because there will be hard times, but to be able to find the joy.

35:45

And, you know, Pastor Josiah did it on one of our Sunday mornings, I think, was it Easter Sunday, maybe?

35:51

That was such a good service. Yes, and I think he said, what does endurance do?

36:01

And it builds, you know, it builds, you build joy through the hard times. Like, it makes you get the grit that is needed to serve the

36:12

Lord, you know, because it is not an easy thing to do. You have, you know, it's very controversial.

36:18

So, do you want to go ahead and go into your testimony on having your abortions?

36:25

Like, how did you, you already kind of went into this, you were raised by your grandma, you're 15, dad was incarcerated, you got pregnant, and then had the abortion.

36:35

So, you said it was, like, matter of fact, you had no say in that. Yep, that's true. And then, so, the second one,

36:44

I was early 20s, and still, you know, didn't know anything about life.

36:57

Were you, like, single, like, not married at this time? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I was living with some girlfriends in Greenbrook Apartments, and we were living our best life.

37:11

You were right there. Literally down the street. I could have just came here all those years ago, but God didn't want me to do that.

37:19

He wasn't done with me yet. And, yeah, we were just, you couldn't tell us anything.

37:26

We were rebellious and wild. And so, yeah, I had a boyfriend, and got pregnant, and he, you know, ended up cheating on me with another friend of mine.

37:46

And I remember, like, that solidified the abortion for me.

37:52

I'm not having a kid with you. You cheated on me. I'm not, you know, and I can remember him wanting to keep it.

38:00

And I was like, you know, hurt people hurt people. And so, that's what I was going to do, and I did.

38:06

And ultimately, you know, it ended up hurting me in the long run. But, so, yeah, that's just, just going back and just even thinking about the life that I live.

38:20

Sometimes I'm like, how did I make it out of that? You know, like you said, God wasn't done with you yet.

38:26

He wasn't, you know, and I have this written down too. Thank God for not being finished with any of us yet. Thank God for that.

38:33

For sure. So, when you guys, we already kind of mentioned this too, of when pastor asked you guys to be on the podcast and like what you guys wanted to talk about, the conversation of abortion came up because you had differing opinions.

38:45

Go into what your differing opinion was from Kaylee. Because you had kind of said that,

38:51

I mean, I asked her, do you believe in abortions? And she said, absolutely not. Literally. Yeah.

38:57

And, but what changed your mind? Because you said that like up until a couple of months ago, like you would have put your daughter in the back seat and taken her to get an abortion if something like that were to happen to her.

39:07

So, what was it that ultimately changed your mind? The word of God. The word of God and walking with Kaylee and pastor

39:19

Josiah down our children's room hallway and pointing out the pictures and getting into the word and looking to see because there's like, what, how many pictures are down there?

39:30

Like six or seven maybe? Are you talking about the ones of our members or the field of development? No, the other side. So, if you don't, if you're not a member of our church or if you've never been here, we have a wall leaning down to the nursery of our church that has the different stages of the fetal development.

39:45

And so, it goes from like conception all the way to birth. And it tells you like the certain things that they're doing.

39:51

Like a couple of weeks ago, this baby was like getting its sense of hearing. So, like now you can talk to him and he'll respond.

39:58

And what's crazy to me and like just a fetal development fact is by like,

40:04

I think 10 to 12 weeks, the baby already has all of its organs it needs. It just needs to grow.

40:10

And that's what the ultrasound tech told me when I was pregnant with my son. She's like, and that's what's so fascinating is that it has everything it needs.

40:17

It just needs to grow at this point and get bigger and healthy and strong. But you said going down that hallway is what you could see the truth in front of your face.

40:27

Well, because I was still, I still felt like if my child, and I have two sons and I have a daughter, okay.

40:36

And that's another thing like that we have gotten so comfortable with putting it all on the female.

40:44

Like even me relating to this situation, I'm like putting it off on Ava. Well, the truth is

40:49

I have Cooper in Kingston too that could come to me and say they've gotten their girlfriend pregnant. And I think that first off, it is my obligation and my duty to show my children a different way of life.

41:08

Now, luckily they have their father's involved in the picture. They're not anywhere, anything like my upbringing.

41:14

It's a lot different. And so I pray that I don't ever have to worry about that. But if it came to,

41:22

I know today that I have a family, a church family. I have friends that will look at me like Kaylee told me that day, because this was a very sensitive topic that we were talking about.

41:34

And she came to me and she said, when I told them that I was pregnant.

41:41

Oh, like Kaylee telling the church? Like Kaylee came to, yeah. And I can't remember if it was you or Josiah that said this to me, but basically we got you.

41:49

Yeah. We got you. I remember that. You don't have to do this alone. Because Kaylee, you had an unplanned,

41:57

Jasmine was unplanned. Very unplanned, yes. And how old were you? I found out on my 21st birthday.

42:03

I was about to go out and celebrate being 21. And I had been sick.

42:08

And I was like, well, I kind of knew, but I didn't want to know. So I was like, well, let me test, because I'm going to feel really bad later down the road if I know that I'm pregnant.

42:19

And I didn't try to be proactive. So I took a test and it came up positive. And I mean,

42:25

I just knew, but it never went through my mind. I was scared for the situation I was in, because me and her dad hadn't been together very long.

42:34

We were together maybe four months. We were living together and I was like, oh, okay, let me go tell my parents.

42:42

But thankfully I had it kind of easy, because Amber, my sister, she had already broken the ice with her being pregnant.

42:48

I was like, oh, surprise me too. But it was never put into my head.

42:56

Abortion never went through my head. Even if, thankfully, Jasmine's dad was so involved and he was from the jump.

43:04

He was, that's my kid and I'll do whatever I need to do for her and for you.

43:10

And I'm very grateful for that, because if that wasn't there, it would have been a harder decision for me.

43:17

But it never would have persuaded me to choose abortion. Well, and then I think about all of, especially with you and your sister's kids, seeing them grow up together.

43:27

You guys were pregnant at the same time? Yeah. I was like, the kids are really close to me. They're five months apart. Okay. And I remember you coming in front of the church to seek public repentance.

43:39

And that wasn't you? That wasn't me. Wasn't Amber? Okay, it was your sister then. Okay, sorry.

43:45

We've had some people come up in front of our church and publicly repent. But even still, to humble yourself in front of your church family, and it's like, this is what

43:54

I did, and I'm asking for your support and for your love. And we have, I call our church the

44:01

Island of Misfit Toys. Literally. Because we have ex -drug addicts.

44:06

We've had people who've had abortions. We have people who have not had abortions and have had unplanned pregnancies.

44:12

We've had, just name it, and our church has probably had it. But that's the thing, is we see how broken of a people that we are, and that we all need

44:21

God's grace and mercy, and we just extend it out to that. That's what Jeff was alluding to earlier. It's like, that is our responsibility as the church.

44:28

We need to take care of our people. And we don't do that. We just pass on that responsibility to the government with what we've done.

44:35

Because a lot of churches expect you to come in not needing anything.

44:41

They expect you, well, you're a Christian, so you should be up there. You should be perfect. You shouldn't have bad days.

44:47

You shouldn't have temptations that you fall to. And that's just unrealistic.

44:55

There's no way. We're still human. But we are the lucky ones here. I mean, y 'all know that, right? Y 'all, honestly, we really are at this church.

45:03

100%. Like, seriously, you're shaking your head no, saying 100%. I was like, oh my gosh, is he disagreeing with me again?

45:09

No, I'm shaking my head because it's sadly true. I've had so many people come to this church, and they're like, okay, they'll call me the day before, the night before, the morning of, like, hey man, what should

45:22

I wear? And I'm like, oh, just do jeans and t -shirt. He's like, no, man, I've been to other churches. And they're like, stressing over this, man, because they know they're going to walk into this building, there's going to be 300 people, they're going to all be like, what is this guy wearing?

45:38

You want to know what I wore to church today? This leggings and my Birkenstocks, because I was in the nursery.

45:44

I wear my house shoes more regularly than regular shoes. And if you stick around long enough, your dad actually preaches about that.

45:51

Like, if you get anxiety on your way to go somewhere, get over yourself. Because so many people have just been absolutely rolled by Christians and churches.

46:04

I remember telling one guy, I said, look, man, if you wear an all -black t -shirt and jeans, you're going to be the top 10 nicest person.

46:13

Top 10 nicest person. If you put jeans on, you will be up there. Well, it's like, none of my pants fit anymore, and it's summer, and I'm like,

46:21

I'm not going to buy new pants. I'll just wear my Nike shorts all the time. But your dad has preached from the like his

46:27

Y -speeder tank top and his flip flops. To be fair, he doesn't like doing that, but sometimes he overheats. It's the sandals for me.

46:36

Normally it's flip flops, cargo shorts, and a short -sleeve button -down shirt. It's really ugly.

46:41

His Magellan shirt. It's super ugly. Oh, I think they're pretty. No, no, not the Magellan, though. No, the

46:47

Hawaiian ones that you get from Goodwill. Yes, Hawaiian. You know what some of his shirts remind me of?

46:54

Like Dwight Schrute. That's what some of his shirts remind me of. They're horrible. They'll just be like mustard or like vomit green or something like that.

47:02

Poor guy. He's going to feel so bad. No. Sorry, Brother Jeff. Thanks for roasting me in the comments. Bless him.

47:07

We love you. But that's the point. I bet you won't say it to his face. I will. But that's the point that, you know, you were making.

47:15

It's like our church is, and I'm not saying like we are the best church. Right. This is the best church for me.

47:21

Yeah. And it's like, I've been to other churches where if you wore jeans on a Sunday, like, you would get stared down and talked about.

47:30

Like, and that was also a church where nobody went to the pulpit during, what's the thing at the end of the service?

47:37

I'm telling you, I'm blanking out on words here. What is it called? Like time to respond, invitation. Invitation, yeah.

47:43

People call it different things. Well, it's like when you go down to the altar, it's like they never, there was maybe one person who would go down like every so often.

47:51

And then people talked about it. Oh, did you see that they went down to the altar? And it's like our church. What's going on in their life?

47:57

Right. And it's like, and with our church, you see people go down to the altar, like all the time.

48:02

Yeah. And then you don't just stand there and stare at them. You go and pray with that person and you follow up with them weeks later.

48:09

Right. And so it's like, if something ever happened in our church, like my husband has actually been a recipient of benevolence before, like this is before we got married and stuff.

48:18

He was in a really hard time with him and his family. And he was a recipient of that.

48:23

And it's like no matter what, like our church will take care of its people. And I think that's so comforting and encouraging because like when

48:31

I found out I was pregnant this time, like I called, I didn't even tell my husband first. I called

48:37

Elena Everett and it was like 10 minutes after I took the test. And I was sitting on the couch and I'm just like about to lose it.

48:46

And I called her and I was like, hey, you have a minute to talk? And she's like, yeah. I was like, okay, are you sitting down? And she's like, yeah.

48:51

And I said, okay, I'm pregnant. And there's just a long pause. And then she goes, congratulations? And I was like, woohoo, freaking out.

49:00

But she was able to talk me through it. I love her. And I'm like, the boys are, well, I didn't know if this was a boy or not yet, but I was like, you know, they're only going to be like 22 months apart.

49:10

And she's like, she has, if you don't know her, she has three boys,

49:16

Elijah, he's the oldest, and then two twins, like twin boys. And they're literally like the same distance apart.

49:22

And she's like, you will be fine. She's like, I can do it with twins. And I'm like, okay, like perspective. She's amazing.

49:28

She can do it with twins. I can do it. But having that support is so important. But that's what, like when

49:35

I found out, you know, like a few minutes before that, when I was pregnant, and I told Pastor, I was like, I can just, now

49:41

I can actually empathize with people of like, why women feel like they would need that abortion.

49:47

And just having no hope, having no support, not having a good relationship with the dad, being raped.

49:53

And that's the thing, like, you know, Jeff was alluding to earlier, was like, no matter how the baby was conceived, it's not right to punish the innocent one.

50:02

And we'll fight for the life of these rapists. We don't want them to be put to death, but we will kill the unborn child that was conceived in that rape.

50:10

And that's heartbreaking. It's like, that is so backwards. And it hurts.

50:16

It hurts me to see that, like, that we value injustice versus justice.

50:25

But not everyone has that same mind. I guess my thing about it would be, we have,

50:34

I remember, I mean, I don't have a problem with this, but I guess the perspective. I remember a couple years ago, a hippo at our zoo had a kid.

50:45

Oh, it's a baby, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was a couple years ago. And like, there was a billboard for it.

50:51

They were like, marketing out the wazoo. Everybody was super happy. Instagram posts. Dang, we care more about a hippo being born than any kid or anything, right?

51:01

It's trivial now. And we have so many scientists who would give their entire career, and people talk about, we found a dust mite on Mars.

51:13

There's life on Mars. It doesn't matter how small of one single atom that may have some type of life or change to be considered alive on Mars.

51:26

And we're like, see, that's life. Right. That's life on Mars. And yet a fetus is like, eh, but does it really matter?

51:36

We get humans here. So it just doesn't matter. Animals, we'd care more of a baby gazelle getting killed by a lion.

51:47

We care more about that and feel more empathetic to a video for that than we ever would talking about a human being being murdered.

51:54

But why? Why? Do you ask yourself why? I mean, that and just like her getting on Pinterest and Googling that topic.

52:01

And the first thing came up is affirmations on how to be okay with that decision.

52:08

Yeah, because it goes back to it being so normalized and so, what's the word you said earlier, so encouraged for people to do.

52:19

And it's not looked at as something wrong. And that's another thing where you had mentioned having your kids watch the silent scream video.

52:33

It is something that when your kids are old enough to understand what sex is and what comes from sex and how to take the precautions that are needed if they are going to choose to have sex, because you can't really stop them from doing it.

52:48

But you can teach them what scripture says and what the consequences thereafter would be.

52:58

And just like how you said with Ava, we had this conversation when we first talked about it where you were like, well, if Jasmine came home at 15 and said she was pregnant, you wouldn't even think about doing that.

53:11

And I'm like, no, because as her parent, I have the responsibility of teaching her the right way.

53:19

And if she goes against what I teach her and she chooses to do that anyways and she chooses to get pregnant, then that's a consequence of her action.

53:28

She's going to have to face that consequence and hopefully she'll not ever be in that situation.

53:36

But if she ever is, I'm not going to turn away from her and say, well, you got yourself into this.

53:43

Get yourself out of it. Well, and plus it's not like in this scenario, it's not just Jasmine's baby.

53:48

That's your grandchild. Right. Well, with any... I'm just saying Jasmine because I'm responsible for her.

53:55

Well, no, but that's what I'm saying. That's your grandchild. And so it's like you're not only responsible for teaching your daughter those things, but ultimately if she were to get pregnant, like if you were to tell her to have an abortion, that would be you condoning the death of your grandchild.

54:10

Right. And the killing of your grandchild. Right. So does everyone kind of agree when I said that or do we...

54:15

I think something we should talk about, right? Like extenuating circumstances. Or like there wasn't even incest and things.

54:23

Things like that. So I was talking to my sister -in -law and she works at a hospital and she says that they have children who are admitted who have serious issues after, like serious medical complications because of incest.

54:39

And she said it's like the select group of people. Wow. Who just... And this is present day.

54:44

Like she has them in the hospital. And it's just a select group of people who just keep reproducing within the same family.

54:52

And because of that incest, they have all of these medical conditions that like, you know, they don't live past a certain age or like whatever.

54:58

And so it's like, should those babies be aborted so they don't have those medical conditions?

55:04

Like if it's an incest thing or like some people are raped by their parents or, you know, other family members and stuff.

55:10

So it's like, you know, should those people, should those babies be spared their complications that they'll seek or have medically versus, you know.

55:19

So that's like one of the big controversies. So like it's, you're trying to take the, like you're trying to play

55:28

God in that situation because you don't know. I mean, the probability of that happening. Yeah. It's very great.

55:35

But you don't know that until the baby's born. Like... And does that baby not deserve the right to life?

55:41

Right. Like even if it, even if the baby does have a, what is it?

55:49

A medical, genetic thing. Yeah. Who's to say that that won't be used for God's glory in the long run?

55:59

One thing, I think it's either Iceland or Switzerland or like one of those countries that they have, they are proud to promote that they have like no children with Down Syndrome within their country.

56:13

But do you know why that is? It's because they abort all of the children who have Down Syndrome.

56:20

That's hard. And it's like, are you saying they're livestock? I just think about, you know, like Luke in our church who has

56:26

Down Syndrome, he's like five, six, seven, however old he is now. And it's like, does he, does his life not matter because he has a chromosomal malfunction?

56:36

Like he brings so much joy. Right. He's a hot mess sometimes. He is so sweet. But he brings so much joy.

56:41

I call him my little boyfriend. Right, but he brings so much joy to our lives.

56:47

And it's like, but we're saying, and there was actually, I've seen this, you know, you can probably find it online, but there was this woman who has

56:54

Down Syndrome and she was like a keynote speaker at this conference that they had. And she says, how dare you say that my life is not valuable because I have

57:03

Down Syndrome? And I was like, oh, like that was so incredibly powerful because you're hearing it from her own mouth.

57:10

Yeah, because it's almost like you're saying that they don't have feelings. Like they don't have. They don't matter. They don't have.

57:16

Human emotions. Like. Right. They're still human.

57:21

It's heartbreaking. And. Did you want to say something? Well, I just keep going back to scripture from this morning.

57:27

Like, I mean, everything that he preached on was so on point. And like if you go to, in your

57:34

Bibles, to Zephaniah. Oh yeah. And you go to, oh, excuse me.

57:45

I did it earlier. 1 .12, I will punish the men who are complacent.

57:54

And then you go over to 3 .2 and it says, she listens to no voice.

58:00

She accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord. She does not draw near to God. This is like what he basically was preaching about was the injustice and adultery.

58:14

In the world today. And if you skip over to, I think this is still the same.

58:20

Okay. So 3 .15, it talks about the solution, right? Because that's very important.

58:27

I think solutions always good because we have a lot of the problem going on today. God doesn't always just give us a command either.

58:33

He gives us a solution. Absolutely. So the Lord has taken away the judgments against you.

58:41

He has cleared you away. He has, I'm sorry, cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the

58:47

Lord is in your midst. You shall never again fear evil. On that day, it shall be said to Jerusalem, fear not

58:55

O Zion. Let not your hands grow weak. The Lord, your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save.

59:03

He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will quiet you by his love.

59:09

He will exalt over you with loud singing. I will change their shame into praise and renown in all the earth.

59:19

So on that, yeah, so Pastor Christian talked about it today.

59:25

He said, okay, cool. You know, in 2022, Roe v. Wade was overturned, you know, in the

59:31

Supreme Court. But in 2023, there were more abortions than the past 10 years.

59:37

There had been over a million abortions in 23. Yes, and I actually have that as a citation.

59:43

We will include that in the show notes. Yeah, so he was talking about it. He said, so what matters?

59:48

What does God judge? The law or the heart of the people, right? So obviously, the law was changed, but that didn't change anything, right?

59:56

The heart of the people is so desperately wicked, and the difference between the passages she just read is one was talking about an unrepentant nation, one was talking about a repentant nation.

01:00:08

And if America, the heart of the people, does not repent, we will be judged.

01:00:15

So, you know, this was written in the time of Josiah, right? A time of revival and change in Judah.

01:00:22

But it was still said, you know, God told Josiah, He said, hey, look, you repented.

01:00:29

I told Judah and Israel I would punish them for their iniquity. You repented, so it only is delaying it.

01:00:38

So he's saying, Josiah, because you have repented at the end of your reign, you know,

01:00:45

I'm still punishing Israel. You know. And that's just. And about, what is that?

01:00:52

I think it was about 20 years after Josiah was gone, 20 years after he died,

01:00:59

Babylon came and sieged Jerusalem. Which 20 years later sounds like a long time, but they've had to walk a very long way and besiege and kill everyone in the path.

01:01:08

So, it probably took a while. It probably took like three years. But that was a just punishment. But yeah, because you know what they were doing?

01:01:16

Murdering children. That's literally what God explained. Sacrificing children. Yeah, to Baal, Milcom.

01:01:23

So, it was like, okay, you're going to sacrifice children. Absolutely consider me in no ways.

01:01:30

All right. Yeah. Cool. He said, you will get a rightful punishment.

01:01:36

There will be justice. And people, okay, I've had to explain this to people when I was in college and stuff, and I feel like this is just, people explain and try to explain to me that it's unjust because Jesus is loving in the

01:01:51

New Testament and God was so mean in the Old Testament. That how can they be both

01:01:56

God if one is so mean and one is so nice? However, people fail to realize that God is a judge, right?

01:02:05

He's a just judge. Let's say someone wronged you. Do you just want the judge to go, it's all right,

01:02:11

I got this one too. Right? There would be no justice. If God was just merciful and just gave everyone a pass, you know, don't worry about it.

01:02:19

I got you on that one. Yeah. You know, that would be a bad judge. We would say he is a bad judge.

01:02:25

I mean, no one would want that judge. How many times do we, like, if you're a true crime junkie like I am or anything like that, how many times have we, or like, here's a specific example.

01:02:36

If you've ever seen Quiet on Set, it's like a recent thing that's come on HBO Max about what happened in Nickelodeon, like all these allegations of sexual assault against children, all this stuff.

01:02:48

And Drake Bell, I don't know if you know who he was. He was like really big when I was growing up.

01:02:53

He had his show. I loved him, yeah. I freaking loved it. Drake and Josh is such a good show. But anyway, so he was actually raped by, was it like a dialogue coach or something?

01:03:04

He was groomed like the whole nine yards. So he, like the court documents are shown in the documentary, like he, horrible, unthinkable things to a 15 -year -old boy.

01:03:17

But anyway, so the judge ruled like 16 to 18 months in jail for this guy.

01:03:25

After like raping a minor, 16 to 18.

01:03:30

It's like, do you think that's a just punishment? Absolutely not. Take him out back. Let's stone him.

01:03:35

It's free. You know, like Lola always messes with me about that. But I'm like, it doesn't take government funding. Like you just get people to volunteer, like nothing.

01:03:43

But that's the thing. It's like you, we get so upset when people don't receive just punishments, like Jeff was talking about.

01:03:52

But in the Old Testament, God gives generations of chances.

01:03:58

He's like, look, because people look and like, see, God destroyed this nation. Yeah. After 60 years of letting them know, hey, y 'all aren't changing.

01:04:08

He's a patient guy. Not only that, not only that, but sending prophets and then having the prophets be murdered brutally and saying, hey,

01:04:17

God wants y 'all to change. Murdering that person over and over again to where God's like, okay, fine.

01:04:24

And then he's a mean God. But in modern times, we would consider him a just God because if he continually just got pushed over and was just like, ah, you know, we would say he's unjust.

01:04:36

If he just allowed mercy after mercy to people who disgraced him, we would consider him a bad judge, right?

01:04:45

So, God and Jesus are the same. Abundantly merciful, renews every day, great is his faithfulness, but he will get justice.

01:04:57

Especially because you have to remember, there were people who were oppressed at that time who weren't getting justice, right?

01:05:04

That time of God saying, change, change. There are people in that nation who are being mistreated, right?

01:05:12

It's not like everybody was just out there living their lives, right? Mary Katz Right. Jared There were victims during that time.

01:05:19

I mean, hardcore crimes. People have been evil for a long time, right?

01:05:25

Mary Katz Yeah, they have the oldest profession. Jared Yes. People have been very good at it for a very long time. Mary Katz But judgment's coming.

01:05:31

Jared It absolutely is, and Zephaniah is a terrifying book for that. Absolutely terrifying book for that.

01:05:37

Well, but it's never like, it's never too, well, at some point it is too late to repent.

01:05:44

You know, like when God, like in Hercules, when Hades, or like the three little ladies clip the string, or whatever, and it's like when it's time,

01:05:54

God's going to call you home, but before that, it's like you have time to repent. And like, just, well, and April can attest to this, you know, with your healing, it's, it is part of the healing process.

01:06:08

It doesn't fix everything. You becoming a Christian didn't fix anything. Jared It probably magnified a lot of what you've gone through in your life, but because of that, having the truth spoken to you in such a gentle way,

01:06:21

I might add, you didn't have it forced down your throat. You weren't yelled at. It was the compassion and the conversation.

01:06:27

Mary Katz It was amazing, yeah. Jared And that's what a lot of people, like, I get that we all get riled up about things that we're really passionate about, but people aren't going to arrive to a conclusion that they didn't already emotionally.

01:06:40

Like, Donovan quotes that all the time. I probably butchered the heck out of that. He'll correct me probably after this airs, but it's like you're not going to convince anybody of anything that they didn't arrive to emotionally, so it's like you have to be true.

01:06:54

You have to be gentle, and that, just think about how you would want to be spoken to when someone's coming at you with, you know, different things.

01:07:02

So that's just one thing to consider if you're in this situation of where you have to talk to a friend about a topic such as abortion or any other topic that's really controversial right now, is just to be gentle and just speak the truth, and it's like, you know, we're all going to have differing opinions, and so I kind of did want to touch on, before we end here, is like the overturning of Roe versus Wade and how that really changed things.

01:07:28

Jeff had already touched on the stat that I wanted to talk about, and the one where in 2023 the abortions had increased by like 10 percent, and it was up to a million children, and that's after Roe versus Wade was overturned.

01:07:42

So it's like, why are we having so many more abortions now that Roe versus Wade was overturned?

01:07:49

If you don't know what Roe versus Wade, it was like the federal protection of abortion. So federally, like nationally, it was a law that you could have an abortion.

01:07:58

Now it's left up to the state, so it's not completely outlawing abortion, it's dependent on the state legislation and government.

01:08:05

So a lot of people were freaking out of like, oh my gosh, you're going to ban abortion? I'm just like, it's literally left up to the state.

01:08:11

And it's not a constitutional right, it is not in the constitution that you can have an abortion. I'm just going to say that now for anybody who wants to come in the comments about how it was a constitutional right to have an abortion, read the constitution, it is not anywhere in there.

01:08:26

Just a little FYI. But anyway, that leads me back to why we're having so many more abortions now than before Roe versus Wade.

01:08:36

And now it's because a lot of the time they're promoting abortion clinics and other clinics are promoting the abortion pill.

01:08:44

Oh yeah, you can buy it over the counter. Well, you have the Plan B pill that you can buy over the counter.

01:08:50

And we both worked in the pharmacy, so I don't know if you ever sold it to anybody. I had to sell, you know, because I'm like,

01:08:57

I'm doing my job and if they come up to me either buying condoms or pregnancy tests or Plan B, like, I got to ring them up for it.

01:09:03

And they have it in a lockbox and everything. But so that's what you take if you're not familiar with what

01:09:09

Plan B is. It's like a morning after pill. And so it essentially just keeps the egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus so it can like grow and do all of that stuff.

01:09:19

But that's kind of what birth control does too. Yeah, like you can do your own research on that, but it works very similarly.

01:09:28

But the two medications that were prescribed for first term abortions are the Mifoprestone and then

01:09:33

Misoprostol, probably not pronouncing those correctly. But the second one, the

01:09:39

Misoprostol, whichever one it is, I actually took that after I had my son.

01:09:46

Because apparently, like, when you're postpartum, you bleed for a certain amount of time and usually it's like by the two or three week mark, you stop.

01:09:57

Right. That's my first baby. I had no idea. I was still kind of bleeding up until like the six week appointment.

01:10:03

But I also have like a blood clotting issue anyway. So I'm like, well, maybe it's just, you know, attributed to that.

01:10:10

Like, that's probably the reason I'm doing that. So I go to my doctor for my six week postpartum visit and she's like, oh, so you're still bleeding.

01:10:17

And I said, yeah, just a little bit then. Like, it's not it's not horrible like it was because I had like some serious bleeding in the beginning.

01:10:25

And she's like, well, we'll go ahead and do an ultrasound, you know, see what's going on. And they did an ultrasound and apparently not all of the placenta had detached from my uterine wall during birth.

01:10:36

And so my body... So the medicine helped. Well, yeah, my body was still trying to get it out and that's why I was bleeding.

01:10:42

And so she's like, well, we're going to prescribe you this medication, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I remember, well, the ultrasound tech was telling me, she's like, the doctor will probably prescribe you this.

01:10:52

And I said, is that one of the medications they use for first term abortion? And she would not give me an answer.

01:10:58

Right. Because it was so she didn't want there to be any controversy.

01:11:04

Yeah. She's like, you know, I'm just doing my job doing this imaging. Like, I get it. I was asking a legitimate question because I was just curious.

01:11:12

But that medication, essentially what this one does is it makes your uterus contract.

01:11:18

So you expel what's ever in your uterus. And she's like, you know, the side of my doctor said, she's like, you'll probably have like the worst cramps of your life.

01:11:26

You know, you'll like, you might get sick. You need to take like a few days off of work if you're back at work.

01:11:31

Or I think she actually extended my maternity leave because of that. But she's like, you just need to be like, you just need to stay at home for a few days.

01:11:38

So I actually had to miss filming for a podcast one day because like in anticipation of this, I'm like, I'm going to be like messed up.

01:11:45

And luckily, and I think it was by, you know, God's grace, like none of that happened.

01:11:51

I just had like some other side effects I'm not going to mention. We'll call it Bojangles for lol. For lol's sake.

01:11:59

But no, it was it was like nothing I'd ever experienced. But like knowing that I had taken that medication that it was for first -term abortion, like really bothered me.

01:12:09

But this medication is also used for like miscarriage management. So like I said, it helps expel anything that's been in the uterus.

01:12:16

And then they use it for prevention and treatment of ulcers. And that is from Planned Parenthood's website.

01:12:22

So that's what the medication's used for. A little just like don't read their website. Oh no,

01:12:29

I look on Planned Parenthood's website a lot. Just speak, especially in preparation of this.

01:12:35

And it's the language that they use. That's exactly, let's say their wording is so misleading, man.

01:12:44

It's so misleading what's happening. They just have to make it like palpable what they're doing, you know, for the justification of it all.

01:12:52

Oh, that's the thing they're justifying. Yeah, it's gross the way they like word, hey, we're going to kill your baby inside you and you're going to allow it.

01:13:00

So it's like, it's so like, yeah. But you also have to understand the position of so many of those women not looking at it like that.

01:13:10

100%. They're probably not thinking about it very much because they probably don't want to think about what's going on and the decision they're necessarily making.

01:13:18

Yeah, because if they've been helpful to you and someone's helping me.

01:13:25

Right, yeah. You feel like you're being seen and heard. They're, I know that they have done, it's once again, you know, it's a sanctification process.

01:13:38

I myself don't believe in it anymore, but I also understand why they are there. Well, because you were talked to by one of those people and you said, like, how many years ago was this when you had the abortion?

01:13:53

You said you're 40, so 15, so like, you know, 25 years or so. Right, yeah, it's been a long time. You said in a previous conversation that we had that they were actually, like, they listed actual options for you.

01:14:05

They did. So, like, adoption and things. But since then, like, now in the current planned parenthood realm,

01:14:13

I don't think they're doing that anymore. Okay, so I'm going to just go back and answer the question that you asked for, like, you said, why are we having so many more abortions since they've overturned that law?

01:14:27

I think it's the same reason why we're having so much, so many, like, teen children killed by guns and, like, we are in combat right now.

01:14:38

Or, you know, our world is literally out there killing each other. Our women are, you know, this world is...

01:14:45

It's destruction. It's so, it's bad. It's really bad. And this is,

01:14:50

I think, a time for everybody, you know, I feel like God's giving everybody a second chance. Like, like you said,

01:14:56

I'm giving you, you know, generations. Yes. So, I just know that He is going to come when

01:15:05

He comes. And I'm thankful that He got to me, for sure.

01:15:12

For sure. My comment of, my comment is not a indictment on, you know,

01:15:20

I guess a lack of empathy. But it is a reality that that is what is happening.

01:15:27

You know, that is what Planned Parenthood is saying, right? It's, we're going to kill your kid and you're going to allow it.

01:15:34

While that may not be the thought process of the patients, it is the reality.

01:15:40

Yeah, or the employees either. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, it's a harsh statement. True. It's harsh, but I don't want to, at the same time, give any of their justification power, right?

01:15:54

So, while it is harsh, and while somebody who is going through that, I would not say that to them, you know, in such a harsh way.

01:16:04

It is what is happening. You know, somebody who has had an abortion or is considering it, you know, they don't need to be bashed over the head, right?

01:16:16

But there is a reality that if we tiptoe around, like, saying it's wrong and saying, hey, look, this is what is happening.

01:16:29

It must stop. Not, it needs to decrease by 10 % next year. Abortion is murder.

01:16:37

So, how real would you be about, and again, this is a touchy topic, but, you know, there are plenty of school shootings, right?

01:16:47

How real would you speak to somebody in an effort to stop a school shooting, right?

01:16:55

Because that is generally what is happening, is you have children who are doing nothing and are being killed, right?

01:17:03

While, you know, it is, they're five years old, or if, you know.

01:17:08

Teenagers. Teenagers, or if, in a couple years, they'll be five years old. You know, in five years, they'll be five years old.

01:17:14

Whatever. You know, it's still the same value. And so, I don't just like school shootings in the same way.

01:17:24

We have to speak out against that action being unacceptable, right? Everyone gets very fired up when, you know, a school shooting happens, and rightfully so.

01:17:33

That is a very tragic event. And I feel the same way about abortion as not a, you know, let's go scream at some people, but in a passionate, this should not happen.

01:17:48

This should not happen where I have a vote to stop it, right?

01:17:54

Like, this is not something that should be political. This is so different than your view on taxes, or your view on.

01:18:02

Republican parties. To me, it shouldn't be something political. This shouldn't be.

01:18:08

It is something as simple as we should all be against school shootings. We should all be against abortion.

01:18:13

It's the same practice. It is the same practice, except for the person who does a school shooting goes to prison.

01:18:22

The person who does abortion gets a paycheck. So, in a sense, it's even more twisted that instead, this is a government -funded, which that should be slapped in the face to everybody who pays taxes, a government -funded.

01:18:37

Whether you think you are or not, or whether you want to or not. Right, because we elect officials.

01:18:44

Violations are so important, people. But it is a government -funded murdering of children.

01:18:51

And so, yes, that is a harsh way to put it, but it is what is happening at the same time. And that is a truth that needs to be spoken, you know, even though it is hard to take.

01:19:02

And it is hard to stomach. And it's hard to give that. It's really hard to stand up, especially to somebody that you love and care about so much.

01:19:14

And you care about that friendship. And you know that your opinions are different on that. And you know how you feel about that.

01:19:21

And then it's like if me and you, I was telling you this earlier, if me and you didn't have such a strong connection with where we are in our friendship and how much we care and love each other no matter that situation or the disagreement we were at then, like I would never be able to sit and just tell you that was wrong or that was this because should

01:19:46

I be able to? Probably. But I just, I feel so bad because it is, it's just made so normalized.

01:19:55

And like I sympathize with, like I feel for it whenever people are going through that.

01:20:02

I'm like, that breaks my heart. And I wish that there was something that I could do to help that situation from that person.

01:20:10

But I know that there's not. And I know that I have to be that friend that's compassionate towards you.

01:20:16

And even if you are going through that, just be there for you and speak the truth as much as I can.

01:20:22

And then at that point, it's your responsibility to either take that and meet me halfway there or take it and run the other way.

01:20:31

Oh yeah, for sure. That's why I think it's so important for women these days to unite. You know, get you a good group of friends that are

01:20:38

Christian, that are wanting to do better with their lives and can teach you.

01:20:43

That aren't afraid to speak truth to you. Yeah, like accountability, the different, oh my goodness. So yeah, yeah.

01:20:49

You know, Marissa and I had a discussion whenever we were going to the women's retreat. You know, because it was what, 45 hours?

01:20:56

I was like, hour and hours? No, I was going to say an hour and 45 minutes. I think it was like two, well if Marissa drove, it was probably really fast.

01:21:03

But it was like, I think it was about two and a half hours. Okay, well it felt like 45 minutes, you know. Yeah, when you're talking. Yeah, and so we were looking up the situation with the

01:21:12

Alabama verse. Oh yeah. Um, I should,

01:21:18

I should know who it was verse. I want to say verse the people. But basically, so the in virtual, in virtual.

01:21:27

The in vitro. In vitro. Thank you. The frozen embryos that, well let me break it down for the blondes watching.

01:21:37

I don't know this either. We had to tell Jeff what it was before we started. Okay. I didn't know what this was either. So the frozen embryos that were in the hospital.

01:21:47

From what I, what, the information that I gathered. They were in a freezer and a guy who was an elderly man, wandered off, like I don't think he was all there.

01:22:04

Wandered off into the room, opened it, being curious, got out the tray, dropped the tray with like thousands of frozen embryos and damaged them.

01:22:18

And you have people who had their frozen embryos in that freezer, who have had successful births with this hospital.

01:22:28

Now they're looking at it like, huh, you just killed my chance of having another child.

01:22:36

Because I, this is the only way I was able to get pregnant before. And I am, I feel that. You know, like if that was the only way for I, for me to get pregnant was that way.

01:22:47

And that happened, I would be devastated. But so this guy, like he's not, we couldn't find any information on him.

01:22:55

And so I don't know if they've just cleared him because maybe. He was like demented or something. Right. In the way like Alzheimer's or you know, dementia.

01:23:03

Like that type of dementia. Right. Yeah. At some point. Dementia, that's such a bad gun. Yeah. Like that. Like, and I think

01:23:09

Alabama, if I'm, I should have looked this up before I just started talking about it again. But I'm pretty sure that like the hospitals are now, they're not able to do that for people right now because of what happened.

01:23:23

Like, is this considered murder that this guy did? I think what a lot of people were upset about was it wasn't their choice to get rid of the embryos.

01:23:33

So the way that IVF works is like the woman is pumped with like all of these.

01:23:39

Different eggs. Yes. Well, not even different eggs, just different medications to make you more fertile so that you will produce more eggs.

01:23:47

And they will take, they will take like more than one egg out. They will take like as many as you can.

01:23:52

Because not many will survive. No, so they'll usually take like, I don't know. We'll have to, I'll link this in the show notes for you guys for this article.

01:24:00

But normally how it works is you take like, you know, anywhere. I'm just, you know, giving a number.

01:24:06

So like anywhere from like five to ten eggs. Right. And then you fertilize all of those eggs. Well, not all of those are going to transfer in.

01:24:13

You don't want to transfer in ten eggs. You're literally only going to, the scientists will look at the embryos underneath a microscope and they will see which ones are most viable.

01:24:22

And that's like genetic testing, like all of this stuff. So which ones have a better chance of surviving if we put it in the womb?

01:24:28

Yeah. And so they'll put those like two or three in the womb. And of course, like not all of them are going to take or at all any.

01:24:37

And then, you know, they'll fertilize the eggs, do all that stuff. And so what's happening is that these people who had like all these extra eggs frozen for different transfers, maybe they wanted to try later down the road.

01:24:48

Like they might not be able to have another child right now just due to circumstances. Like life situations of like, oh,

01:24:54

I just don't have like the means to take care of another child, that type of thing. We can try later. It was because they did not have their consent.

01:25:01

So it's like, so why are you upset if it's not a child? That's the whole argument around that. It's like, why are you so upset if it's not really a child, if it's just an embryo?

01:25:10

It's because they're children. Right. And that's why people are getting upset. Is that ruined? Like you said, it killed their, literally killed their chance of having another child.

01:25:19

And now they're not even able to do it again in their state. Or I think, I think too what we read was they were able to take what was left, transfer them to another state.

01:25:30

Because in that state, they could still, you know. It's just tough. It's tough.

01:25:35

It's a tough situation. And that's the thing. It's like as, you know, I'm not speaking for like all women or all men here, but it's like as women, we tend to be the more sympathetic.

01:25:45

Emotional creatures. Right. And it's like, so we can, you know, we've all, all three of us women have had situations of where we've had unwanted pregnancies at one time or another.

01:25:56

And like how we deal with that, but like also how we've grown from that. Like I wouldn't say unwanted.

01:26:02

I would say unplanned. Well, like mine was unplanned and sort of unwanted. So, you know,

01:26:07

I'm speaking, like I'm speaking for myself. I was, I was unwanted. I was. No, yeah, little Jeff wasn't.

01:26:13

I was, I was, I was very unwanted. Your mom already had four other kids. I mean, like, let's be honest.

01:26:19

But that's the thing. It's like, we all have experiences like that. And I remember asking Jeff if he would be on the podcast this week, and he's like, why would you want me on the podcast?

01:26:29

I'm like, well, I think it's important for someone without a uterus to come on and prove that they can have an opinion about, about this topic.

01:26:37

Because it's like, it's not just a female topic for us to be talking about.

01:26:43

It's like men can have opinions too. It's like, this is a human issue. This isn't a political issue.

01:26:48

Yeah, and not only is it a human issue, but it's, men still have the responsibility and blame on it as well.

01:26:55

Right, right. You know, it's not like. Well, without men, we wouldn't have this problem. It's not like, it's not like women are the issue here, right?

01:27:02

It's a human issue. Yeah. Right. It's a human problem. It's a human responsibility. That's why you're here. Yeah. Yes.

01:27:08

Can we have five? That was great. See, I was really, I was really happy when Jeff was able to come on.

01:27:13

I'm like, I think this will be the perfect, the perfect fit for our podcast today. But did you guys have any other closing remarks that you wanted to make before we shut stuff down?

01:27:22

No, I just thank you guys for the opportunity to have us sit here and get honest. And hopefully it reaches somebody.

01:27:30

And if nothing else, like comment below. We'll reach out to you. If you feel like you don't have the support, you got, you got some people sitting around this table right now.

01:27:41

But yeah, we'll support you. Well, and I just want to thank you guys for coming on and like sharing your perspective.

01:27:46

And then especially you April with your story, because it's like, just because you're a

01:27:51

Christian doesn't mean that all of your problems are fixed. And like all of your healing is done. And so I know that that was really raw for you to have to come on here and share that.

01:28:01

But I think, and like we talked about this a couple of months ago in preparation for this episode, is that by you sharing your story,

01:28:08

I think it will touch a lot of lives. Or it might encourage somebody else to talk to their friend that might have a differing opinion.

01:28:15

Yeah. And so I just think that's, I'm just really proud of you. And I'm thankful for you to come on. Thank you.

01:28:21

So I'll go ahead and close things out here. I did want to mention that like all of these resources that we've talked about, and then even some that we haven't talked about will be linked down in the description for you guys.

01:28:34

Please, please, please take a look at that. The silent scream is the only graphic one. I'm thinking about all the ones in my head.

01:28:42

The silent scream video is the only one that is like truly graphic in image wise.

01:28:47

The other ones are either illustrations or like commentary on illustrations. I'll also link the podcast episode of where the music minister who was conceived and raped talks about his healing and like meeting his mom later down in life.

01:29:01

And then I will also link, we did not get a chance to talk about this one today, but I mentioned it in previous episodes of where a woman who was gang raped ended up keeping her baby and talking about her journey into motherhood and how important her son's life is to her.

01:29:17

And I actually had the pleasure of meeting her on a couple of occasions. So it's a really, really powerful story. So we'll link all of that stuff below.

01:29:24

If you guys have any questions, please comment them. Try to keep it civil. I know that there are differing opinions out there, but this conversation, and I don't think

01:29:34

I mentioned it in the beginning of the episode, but this is a conversation that I have specifically been praying about that we were able to get on the podcast.

01:29:43

So I just want to thank God, you know. First and foremost, I want to thank God because He gave us this opportunity.

01:29:50

And you never know who is in your life who has gone through an abortion or some other traumatic thing like that.

01:29:57

So I just want to thank God for providing us with that opportunity like Jeff had prayed for before we started filming this episode.

01:30:06

So please like, share this episode with somebody. Do it in grace and compassion.

01:30:14

And we just thank you guys for watching. But then again, until next time. Deuces! You can do whatever you want.

01:30:21

Lowell will edit and post. Perfect. Thank you.