Abortion (Special Guests Apryl Abbott & Kaylee Dillon) | S6 E10

The Emotional and Spiritual Stakes of Discussing Abortion

Okay, well welcome back everybody to the Point Taken Christian Podcast. We are glad to have you here today. If you have not seen our videos before, thank you for joining us. Please subscribe, like this video, and share.

I will go ahead and add a brief disclaimer, if you have not noticed at the title already, that we will be discussing abortion today. We have one of our church members who has actually had a couple of abortions herself, who is willing to share her testimony.

So we are going to be kind of graphic in these conversations, so just plan for that accordingly. But otherwise, let's go ahead and introduce our guests. So we have Jeffrey over here, even though it's not really his name, it's just Jeff.

He's one of our recurring guests that we just love having on. And then over to his right, my left, we have April, and she's going to be sharing her testimony today. And then Kaylee, one of our other girls that go to our church.

I guess you're not a girl, you're a woman. Hello. You're one in full grown. Some of our church members who are willing to come on and share their opinions and also biblical insight on abortion. So we'll go ahead and get started with how you guys kind of viewed abortion, like growing up, through life, if that's changed at all.

I'll go ahead and start, and I think I've shared this on previous podcasts before, but if you've never seen it, you know, this doesn't matter. One of the things that, like, I always knew abortion was wrong in the sense that, like, I would never do it for myself.

I didn't care if other people did it, because that was, like, what was best for them. But it's like, for thee but not for me type thing. So I really didn't have a problem with it until I was in, I was already married, so I was in, like, my early 20s.

And my husband and I got started on the topic of abortion. And I was just like, I don't know, I just don't really have, like, a problem with it all the time. You know, like, in those certain scenarios of where it's, like, rape or incest or, you know, like, a single mom who already has multiple kids, you know, like, all these things.

But, like, I would just never do it. But if someone else does it, like, I can't judge them on that. And so we had a deep conversation about that, and he showed me a video. It's called The Silent Scream.

I don't know if any of you have seen that. We'll actually link to that video below in our description, so you guys can watch that for yourself. But that was a game-changer for me, 100%. So I was, you know, once okay with it, and then in some situations, and now I'm not okay in all situations.

Same. So it's kind of how I am. About, say, Kaylee or April,.

Did y 'all want to go next? I mean, my situation was probably the same. Growing up, we didn't really hear about abortion and stuff like that, so I never really knew. I knew what it was, but I never thought more past that's what it is, and that's it.

I didn't really have an opinion on it. But once I got older, and I started having friends who were old enough to have abortions and things, and they were having them, then it became more relevant, I guess, to my life, as I would say.

And I watched The Silent Scream video when I was, I don't know, probably 18 or 19, and I always had the opinion of, that's wrong, and nobody should ever do it, no matter what. But I'm so empathetic and sympathetic that I felt bad for the people that had to go through that, and that have had those situations, that I understood why they were doing it.

I just know I could never.

Do it. Right. Well, I will go on that point. Before The Silent Scream, I really didn't know what abortion was, like what happened in the process of an abortion. Yeah. I just knew it was like a termination of a pregnancy, you know, that's what they talk about.

So that really opened my eyes of what it was. I've never seen it, still. I don't think I've ever seen it. So Lowell hasn't seen it either. We talked about it. So now, when this episode comes out, like, I mean, it's graphic.

Just the title alone is pretty graphic. Right. Well, but it's actually showing the process. The entire procedure. So a woman's legs up on the stirrups, getting the aspiration done, like all of it. So it is, it's not an illustration.

It is like an actual procedure. So that's the thing. It's like to consider when you watch it, and I will tell you, if you have, like, and you know, use your discernment with your own children. If you have teenagers, especially, have them watch this video.

Watch it for yourselves, and then judge if your children should watch it at a certain age. But I think, like, everyone needs to watch it. Like I said, Lowell hadn't seen it either, and he's like, it's not that, like, I didn't want to watch it.

It's like, I don't know. I'm not, never in, like, a, I don't want to, like, bring my mood down. Yeah. And then when I'm down, I don't want to, like, bring me further down. So it's, like, kind of in the middle.

And I'm like, I totally understand that, because you know that you're going to be watching something that will destroy you. Right. Essentially. But we'll go ahead and go into you, April. I mean, you know, I had to ask myself why I was even willing to do this, honestly, because it is such a sensitive topic for so many people and for myself now.

And I, there's two reasons why. I think now, more than ever, I'm more inspired about women fully walking into the fullness of who God wants them to be, like, fully. And two, because there was a time not long ago where I would have been the parent driving my daughter to have an abortion if I did not receive the Word of God the way that I have received it lately.

And I'm extremely thankful for that. So with that being said, I have had an abortion. I've had a couple, actually. And my first one, my recollection of it is, you know, my grandmother raised me. I got pregnant.

I was 15. And she put me in the backseat of the car and she drove me straight to the abortion clinic. And it wasn't up for debate. It wasn't something that we were gonna talk about. It was matter-of-fact, this is going to happen.

And I would have done the same thing to Ava, you know, before I got the Word, you know. And Pastor Christian, man, this morning, oh, it was so good, wasn't it? It was so good. He said, with a tender heart, I can face fear with power.

And ah, that resonated with me so much. Because this topic, in itself, there's a lot of fear for it, for me, because I don't want to say something that is insensitive to someone's feelings, or if someone's going through that right now, or if they're about to have one, or if they just took a Plan B.

And you know, like, all of, there's so many emotions that are involved with this topic. But, you know, my husband told me this morning, if the Bible hurts your feelings, then you're getting the Word. Because literally, that's what it does.

It offends people. It does. It offends you. I now definitely think that abortions are wrong. I think that having sex before marriage is wrong. And if you put yourself in that situation, then you're, you know, you need to learn to deal with it.

But that was not, for a long time, what I thought. Right? Sanctification. I love it. Man. Jeffrey, where do you.

Stand, or where did you stand? So, I'm actually kind of more in line with Kaylee. Like, I did not, I don't even know when I figured out what abortion was. I don't know if I was in middle school, or what age.

I don't remember ever really talking about abortion with my parents, or just, you know, ever learning what abortion is. I don't think I ever thought of it fondly, but, or like, accepted that, you know, sometimes it was necessary.

And then I had experience, how old was I? I would have been probably just into college. So, just into college, I actually had a buddy of mine at the time. I was really trying to witness and minister to him, and he, his girlfriend was like, hey, I'm gonna have an abortion.

And he was like, hey, look, you know, he was much more of the, hey, look, like, you know, I know you're not in no way ready to take care of it. I can do that, you know. You just take it to term. You can visit it, the child, whenever you would like.

Whatever you want, just please don't have the abortion, you know. I would like to have my child, and all this stuff. And I remember I went to him, to the Planned Parenthood, to like, you know, kind of go talk to her, and she basically said, you know, screw you.

She had it.

Yeah, she did. And that really stunk, but that's a very nice way to say that. It was a terrible time. But other than that, I don't have really, of course, experience with that, with abortion. And to be honest, it's only been negative, and I've never really thought about it in a positive way, so I haven't really had my mind changed about it.

I mean, I do feel sympathetic, of course, to people who are a rape victim or a victim of something. But I guess we'll talk about those topics further on, about how we all view those topics and possible solutions.

And, you know, I go back to that, like, the whole Planned Parenthood thing. Had they had been able to open a Bible, because it's a Christian-based, you know, they talked…. No way. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

Either way, no matter what is on their website there or not.

Okay, but they talk to you about certain things. The only thing they don't do is open the Bible in front of you. They do, they try to persuade your decision. I mean, that's what they try to do. It is Planned Parenthood that….

No, you're thinking Life Choices. Life Choices. I'm sorry.

That is very different.

Okay, you're right, you're right. Life Choices is a pro-life organization. It's a trauma, a pregnancy trauma center. Not trauma, what am I trying to say? You know what I'm trying to say?

Yes, it's not crisis, but it's….

No, I think it's a crisis center. But they still refer you to where you need to be. Yes. If you don't make up your mind either way, they still refer you to the next step, but they try to really talk you out of….

Life Choices.

Yes, Life Choices. I apologize. Because they will have that. I've toured Life Choices, and we've done fundraisers for Life Choices at our church before, and if you're not local, this is a local organization for pro-life.

Yeah, they're like next door to Planned Parenthood.

But they still never open their Bible. They're in the same neighborhoods, yeah. Which I don't think they can. I don't know why. They actually…. So I've been back in the last handful of years, and they said that they will actually open scripture and counsel women.

So I don't know how long ago you ended up going and what things were changed since then, but they're also an adoption organization. So if some of these women who don't end up having an abortion, they will come in and say, I don't want to have an abortion, but I can't care for this baby.

And so they'll end up putting their babies up for adoption through the organization. And so that's a big thing that Life Choices does,.

Is they help people get an adoption to a good family and not just, you know, the government.

And so they'll also provide other things for the women, like other…. I'm blanking out. Sorry, I have pregnancy brain, so words are coming. Resources.

Yeah, they'll give pregnancy resources.

If you decide to keep your baby, they have like parenting classes that you can take. They have like a store that you can go to within the facility, and like you earn dollars essentially by like going to these classes, and then you can earn that money to buy certain products that you need.

So they have like baby swings or baby clothes and things like that. So they really, they… and I was actually going to mention them later, but you brought them up now, so I'll go ahead and talk about them.

They are… and this isn't just this pregnancy center that does this. Like there are others all over the country, and it is just such a blessing to see how they are blessing other women and giving their child a chance at life.

So I just think it's awesome. But yeah, but Planned Parenthood, and we will go into that later of how like what they said to you whenever you got your abortions and stuff. But first, I wanted to start off with what does scripture say?

And I know that all of us have scripture on this, so I'll go first, and then we can kind of just jump in however we want, and then we can talk about this too. But so I'm reading from, and you know, I just have it written down on my paper, but you know, I wrote it down from scripture today.

Genesis 127, so God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. And then Genesis 9 -6, whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed, for in the image of God, God has made mankind.

And I just think that, you know, people always say, in the aspect of abortion, like, oh, it's not a baby, like it's just, you know, the clump of cells, like we hear that all the time. But it says that God created man in His own image.

Like, we have a purpose. He was very intentional with us and how we were created. And then one thing, and I'll quote from this pastor too, and we'll have this sermon linked in the description below, if y 'all want to listen to it.

You can either read it or listen to it. But going on Genesis 9 -6, it talks about whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed, for in the image of God, God made mankind. And this is a quote from John Piper.

The reason Genesis 9 is so important in affirming that all humanity is made in the image of God is that it came after the flood. Thus, it reinforces what was spoken at the beginning of creation. How many years were between creation and the flood?

Like, it was several, it was generations.

Peter Yeah, it would be generations.

Kirsten. Like, hundreds of years between. And so, it talks about, He reinforces what was spoken in the beginning that we were all created in God's image. And that, like, blood needs to be shed if you take blood of another.

And so, it says, the killing of human beings created in the image of God is so serious that it warrants being killed by governments that bear the sword not in vain. And that's a quote from Romans 13. So, I don't know.

I just, I think that's so powerful is that, like, it should be punished. This is not something that should just be overlooked. Like, Scripture says that you should be punished for taking blood of another.

And then also, he goes on to say that there is no difference in the terminology of a baby in the womb versus outside the womb, in that in Scripture, they're treated basically the same. So, it's like, so, why do we treat this, like, you know, I'm 24 weeks pregnant today filming this.

And it's like, so, why do we treat this different than, you know, your three-month-old nephew? And so, I don't know. I just think it's.

Wild.

Megan. Yeah, going off of that, that's just like, I had a conversation with somebody the other day about how you can have the abortion and that's not considered murder because it's your choice. But then, if you, if you being pregnant were in a car accident and somebody killed you and the baby, it would double homicide.

So, how, like, that's the part where, where's the line? Like, where's the, is it just not my, is it just because it's not my choice?

Rachel. How I would argue that is it's a justification. Someone's trying to make themselves feel better about the decision that they're making, and it's like, well, if I was actually looking up some stuff in preparation of this podcast, and I went on Pinterest just to see if there were, like, any blog articles of, like, other people sharing their stories and stuff.

And I, so, I typed in abortion in the search bar. And I laughed because the first image that popped up was, like, a graphic design of, like, abortion affirmations. And it was like, you know, it's what's best for you.

And it's like, it's okay if you don't want to have children right now or ever. And I'm like, no, I, it's like, I agree with some of the statements that were listed in here. It's like, it's okay if you never want to be a parent.

Like, parenting is not for everybody. There are actually some people who should not be parents. That's just my personal opinion. But that's another podcast for another day. But with that being said, it's like, it's, it's selfish.

And it's all about you. And like, and I'll, and I'll share this. Um, when I found out I was pregnant with this baby, this baby was not planned. And, you know, people can come for me and be like, how do you not plan?

Like, you know, things happen.

It happens.

The baby's here. You know, the baby's in my belly now. Like, huge, huge blessing. But I remember, like, I was six days late. And so, at this point, I had just stopped nursing my son, like, a month or so before.

Oh my goodness. So, I still hadn't, like, regulated, like, with my cycle. It was still kind of, like, a few days late here and there. So, I was, like, five days late the month before. And then, so, I'm six days late.

I'm like, oh, you know, it's, it's gonna come. And I was just,.

Like, surprised.

I knew. I knew. And I was so stubborn. Like, I told my husband, I said, I think I'm gonna wait an extra day so I can be seven days late. And then, like, really, no. And so, I ended up going to get a test, like, and, like, have my, my son was 14 months at this time.

So, just over a year. And I remember going to the store and picking up a pregnancy test and then coming home and taking it immediately. Because, like, I just could not wait. I'm like, I had to, I had to know.

I just, I already waited six days, you know. I can't wait any more time. So, I remember taking the test in our bathroom. And my son was, like, crawling around on the floor, playing in our drawers and stuff that we have in the bathroom, just, like, completely oblivious to what is happening around him.

And I remember, like, I put the test in the sink so, like, it wouldn't be on the counter for me to see it. And I remember, like, glancing at it and seeing the two lines. And I was just, like, maybe I didn't see that.

Maybe that's not what I saw. And, like, I was not laughing in my head at this time. I was, like, low-key freaking out. And I remember, like, after the three minutes or whatever that it said, like, I looked at it and it went, had double lines.

And I stood there and had no reaction. I was so upset. And I've talked to Pastor Josiah about this before. I said, I understand where women feel like they need to have an abortion and that they want one.

I said, and he, we had had this conversation. In the conversation, he's like, yeah, because it's not just a nine-month commitment. It is a lifetime commitment. And then if, like, you know, you not only carry the child for nine months, then you have to birth the child and then you have to recover from that.

And even if you don't choose to.

And you weren't recovered yet, either. Right. Like, even if you choose to give that baby up for adoption, your body has a year, at least a year, if not longer, to regulate back to pre-baby.

Well, and that's the thing. And it's, like, and I had stopped nursing, like, one month before that. And, like, FYI, I was not using nursing as birth control, like so many people think that I probably did.

Because some people do that. That was not for me. But that being said, like, I literally had one month of, like, my body back to myself. And that was another thing. I was so upset about that. I'm like, I wanted more to, like, we weren't going to start trying until, like, another year.

And this is, like, not what I wanted. And because my, our first son was planned. Like, we intentionally, you know, tried to have a baby. And I got pregnant soon after that. And so, with this, like, I don't do well when things aren't in my control.

Like, I feel like most of us do. And so, I just really struggled with that. Because I nursed my son for just over a year. Yeah. And so, I'm, like, knowing, like, I had a bad recovery with my son. And so, like, knowing what I was going to go through again, just, like, I know this is going to sound dramatic.

But, like, bear with me. Like, this was a really, you know, difficult time in my life. I, like, it felt like PTSD. Like, I was dreading those times. Okay. Now, take that feeling. Fifteen. And, yeah, make you a young, unmarried girl.

Right. Because you're not a woman yet at that point at all, you know. You have to take that feeling and magnify that. And then, you don't have, well, for me. That's exactly what I was about to say. My dad was incarcerated at the time.

My grandmother had custody of me. My mother was not there. And it was very selfish. But that was the life that I was leading. I was leading a very selfish life. Like, I mean, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy.

And then, take that. And then, take a guy saying, oh, hey, guess what? I don't want a kid either. I'll pay for it. And now you have someone co-signing the fact that you already don't want to do this.

And then, it just makes it go away. Yeah. And that is something that so many women face today because we are living in such a worldly world, an unjust world, that it's okay if you make a mistake and you have sex to just go fix it later when you find out.

And that's, unfortunately, not the way that God would have it. Because it's not even just normalized anymore.

It's actually, what's the word? Common? Pushed. Not common. It's encouraged for people to go ahead and, well, if you make this mistake, it's okay. You can just take care of it. And that's with anything.

Not even just abortion. There's no consequences anymore for anybody's actions.

But there are still consequences that are long-term that people don't, that they don't understand. Like, I'm now 40 years old and I just had a baby two years ago. And on the paper, they say, how many pregnancies have you had?

How many deliveries? And then it hits you. Ugh. Yeah. And you're like, hmm. Well, they'll ask you about miscarriages. And then, like, my OB, since I'm, how many lives births? Because, like, they have that survey.

How many abortions have you had? Yeah. Because that matters. It does. It's like, it affects you being able to get pregnant later on. You have other complications depending on how many abortions you've had in the past.

So it's like. The scar tissue. Right. And so, and that's what a lot of people don't understand is because they're not taught. Yeah. First of all, what an abortion is. And then second, what the. Say it again.

Right. It's like people are not, they're not taught. They're not. They're not taught. And I wasn't even taught until Pastor Josiah came to me and asked if we would be on the podcast. And we were like, well, what are we going to talk about?

And so we were throwing up all these ideas to see if they would stick. And then I was like, well, what's your take on abortion? And she was like, absolutely not. That's how we knew. And I was like, that's it.

You know, not that it's a comfortable thing to talk about, but I understand why people do it. I do. I, um, the only thing that ever upset me prior to, um, was like, I had a girlfriend who, it just seemed like every couple of months she was turning around and, and having one.

And I remember like then feeling convicted for her. Like, this just isn't right. Like you probably need to be doing something different. You know, this is not working out for you. And, um. And that was all.

Pre-conversion. You didn't know any of the truth or anything. I didn't know. You were just.

Right. Morally. Right. But I still, it's still hard for me now. Like, okay, we all sin, right? Yeah. And, you know, sin's a sin, but the punishment for the sins, like if we go back, back in the day, you know, like if one person stole compared to if someone murdered, their punishments were different.

Their punishments were more harsh, like capital punishment. Right. You know, in this, in this sense, it says in what he quotes Romans 13, um, sorry, the killing of humanity being created in the image of God is so serious that it warrants being killed by governments.

And so, it's like, yeah, there are harsher punishments for different, um, crimes, you know. All of that to say. Absolutely. Right, yeah. So, there's like.

Different consequences for each sin, but something actually kind of interesting is in the Old Testament, there were capital punishments, right? So, if you think about it, David, right, committed two capital punishments, but was not capitally punished.

Right. Why?

He repented.

Exactly. Which, because in the Old Testament, it said there are no sacrifices to cover these sins.

Right. Only God can forgive.

Even in the Old Testament, David said, true, but a repentant heart you will never turn away. So, while correct, there are human consequences, right? There are always human consequences for any action, good or bad, right?

There's just cause and effect. There is, in this message, I feel like for a certain group of people may need to be heard, there is always, God will never turn away a repentant heart. There is always, there's no outstanding, there's no, wow, I, you know, maybe I've had an abortion and now I'm worthless.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm ruined.

You know, that is never seen in Scripture. There's no, you know, evidence or God ever speaking to somebody. It is a repentant and contrite heart. God will never turn away, you know.

Yeah, because God knows your heart, and He knows if you're, I mean, if you're just saying it so that you can get out of that punishment or if you truly are changed and are repentant in your heart.

Yes, yep. Well, did y 'all want to go ahead and share your Scriptures really quick, and then we can just go straight into your testimony, because I want you to. I mean, mine is Jeremiah 1, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born, I sanctified you.

Can I add something on that?

Yes.

I remember being pregnant with our first son, and, like, I don't know. This is different for everyone. I never really feel, like, bonded with a baby until, like, I know who they are, like, gender-wise, and then, like, I can name them, and then I was very intentional of praying for certain things with our firstborn son, and just, like, certain personalities, certain attributes that he would have, and, like, him, I was like, like, God, I just want him to be friendly, and then, like, that will just attract people to him, and so that he can be the light to him.

He, we went to my husband's grandma's house. They call her Ninny, and they had some dogs over there, and he, like, the dog's laying on the ground. He squats down on the ground. He says, hi, doggie. Hi.

And then anyone else that he sees, he will wave at, and he is so friendly, and that's, like, I can see that that was an answered prayer, but it's, like, God knits us together in our mother's womb. Like, whenever conception happens, like, DNA is created.

Like, God has formed that human being, and it was intentional about that. It has certain attributes of the mom, and certain attributes of the dad, and characteristics and qualities, all of these things that are so intentional, and it says right there in Jeremiah, so Old Testament, thousands of years ago, that our creation was so intentional in our mother's wombs,.

So I don't know. I just wanted to mention that. Well, the knit together, it goes into my verse, so it's Psalms 139 .13, for it was you who created my inward parts. You knit me together in my mother's womb, and then I have 139, Psalm 139 .16, and it was your eyes saw me when I was formless.

All my days were written in your book and planned before a single one of them began. So, yeah, I mean, He knit you together, just like you were saying, with all the attributes that are needed, or not necessarily needed, but that will, I don't know how to say it, like, just.

Bring... He has a purpose for us. Yeah, the purpose and everything. Well, and finding out, my boys will be 22 months apart, and that age gap really freaked me out, because I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have two under two for two months.

I was freaking out, but I'm like... Yeah, like you're teaching one to sit down and be quiet, and the other one to walk and talk. Right, yeah, right. I would say that with my two boys, so I can relate.

But that's my point, is God, I was like, obviously, God has a plan. This would not have happened. I would not have gotten pregnant if God did not intend for this to carry on. I'm like, my boys will have each other in this world that is going downhill, like, hell in a handbasket, like we say.

And I know that He has a purpose for that, whether it's in my timing or not. And so, that's what that scripture talks about, is He has a purpose. Go ahead.

And so, on that, when you, I guess, re-read Genesis 127, talking about how we're in the image of God, Genesis 9 -6, talking about how important it is, and you shed the blood of somebody who's in the image of God, and that has an innate value, right?

And God, you know, knit each person together in their mother's womb. So, God, you know, there's a value put on every single person's life. And you compare that with how, you know, the former president of Planned Parenthood speaks about unborn children, and it's the exact opposite.

Bethany. What did they say?

Jared. So, her name was Cecile, and she said that, she was asked, so when does life matter come into the picture of abortion? And she shockingly said, why would it come into, you know, it's not in the conversation.

That's not a variable to consider. It is 100 the woman's choice. And so, she was saying that to empower women as like, hey, this is all you, this is your power, this is your choice, 100%. There are no other variables, right?

It's not about, you know, when life starts, you know, it's about when life starts to matter. And so, she, you know, was a firm believer that, you know, abortions during birth were perfectly fine. If you change your mind during birth, it's totally fine to have an abortion.

It doesn't matter what your problem is. It doesn't matter what your reason is. It's no one's business.

What your reason is. Bethany. I don't agree with that, nor have I ever agreed with that. That is just insane to me. That's crazy. Cecile. Well, there are some states who I think you have 24 to 48 hours to decide after birth, and they will literally cut their spinal cord off.

Bethany. Not anymore.

Cecile. After they're born?

Bethany. No way. It's not in all states, but like, look it up. Surely that's not a thing now.

Cecile I've never heard that in my whole life.

Bethany. There are some states who still do that.

Craig. Yeah, so when you just look at that viewpoint against what God has obviously set as His viewpoint, I can't agree. No matter, this is the hard part for a lot of people, and you know, all of us are fairly sympathetic people.

No matter your circumstances, right? So, no matter your circumstances, God's Word doesn't change, right? Unless God had put, like, unless you're having a real hard day, you know? And that's the unfair, you know, thing that life is sometimes unfair, but who's it more unfair for?

The person.

Who was just murdered? Or, you know? Bethany. The innocent person who was just murdered.

Craig. So, I mean, that's why, you know, Pastor Christian said it today. He's like, look, Christian doesn't want to offend you, but I believe what the Bible says, so I will say it. It doesn't matter what your situation is.