December 21, 2017 Show with Jeremy Walker on “The Incarnation” AND “Life in Christ: Becoming a Disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listeners, with your own questions. Now here's our host. Good afternoon Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you a happy Thursday on this 21st day of December 2017 and I am so delighted that we have a returning guest who's become one of my very favorite guests and amazingly even though he calls in from the UK, his phone connection is clearer than anybody it seems that calls in from the United States.

I'm not certain why that is. Maybe that's just a reason for giving cheers to the UK telephone companies out there but Jeremy Walker is our guest today, pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England and he's an author and a blogger at Reformation 21 and The Wanderer.

Today we are addressing two themes. The first with Christmas approaching, in fact with Christmas Day arriving on Monday of next week. This is the second to last interview that we're having before Christmas of 2017.

So we're going to have a program on the incarnation for the first hour and during the second hour we're going to be discussing one of Jeremy Walker's books, Life in Christ Becoming a Disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jeremy Walker.

Thank you very much Chris,.

I'm delighted to not only be doing all of that but championing British engineering and telecommunication.

Well I'm just speaking the truth brother, it's just I always can relax when I know you're calling because I have no fear of technical difficulties with phone lines or over modulation or muffled voices or anything like that.

That's good tonight. Well even though you've given our listeners this information again, the audience of Iron Trip and Zion Radio seems to be growing constantly and we have new listeners contacting us almost every single day.

So therefore I want you to explain Maiden Bower Baptist Church primarily for their sake since they may be discovering you for the.

First time. Okay, so in the United Kingdom it's from Gatwick 75 and I'm a co-pastor of the congregation at the moment with my father in March. 23 years of service in the same congregation so that will be a big change for us and we've got a congregation this church our needs and help us.

Well forgive me if I've already asked you this but are you familiar with my former pastor David Campbell who is now pastoring the North Preston Evangelical Church. I do know him,.

Well yes we've had opportunities to speak on several occasions and I esteem him very highly.

Yes he's a dear brother and I miss him very dearly even though I love my new pastor John Miller here Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I still miss my dear friend David Campbell, he was a very rare and unique man and loved his preaching, loved his friendship and look forward to an opportunity to see him again at some point if the Lord allows since I've never been to England so I don't know if he ever plans on visiting the States again.

I'm sorry brother? Yeah I do want to and hopefully that will happen and I have been on a UK radio program, Unbelievable, perhaps you're familiar with that. They interviewed me on the same day that they interviewed a Roman Catholic who was a former Anglican.

They interviewed me because I was a former or am a former Roman Catholic who became a Bible-believing Christian Protestant and they also interviewed a former Anglican who became a Roman Catholic and then the discussion developed into a debate which is something that I did not know beforehand but I think I handled myself fairly well, a lot better than I thought that I would have since I had never engaged personally in a public debate before.

Even though I've arranged nearly 30 of them I have not actually debated before but I'm going to just give a little plug to my friend and former pastor's website that's North Preston Evangelical Church in Preston, United Kingdom and that website is npec .org .uk n-p-e-c for North Preston Evangelical Church .org .uk and in fact Pastor Dave told me not long after relocating to the UK a young man showed up at the worship services there at the North Preston Church one Sunday morning and said that he heard about the church from Chris Arntzen and I on Sherpins Iron Radio.

So it's a small world you never know who's listening to this program. Yeah great. Yeah well.

I'm going to be repeating that information as well so in fact let me do that right now anyway m-a-b-a-c-h .org is the website for the Maiden Bower Baptist Church where our guest today is pastoring m-a-b-a-c-h you can remember that for Massachusetts Bach even though that's not what supposed to stand for as far as the URL it's an easy way to remember it m-a-b-a-c-h .org.

The Incarnation of Jesus Christ

Well the first thing that we are discussing today is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is a monumental event in the history of the universe because God did something that he had never done before.

Jesus Christ having been already in existence from all eternity past in addition to all eternity in the future he was always the second person of the Godhead but he became fully man as well as being fully God that is quite a remarkable occurrence in the history of the universe and the history of God.

You care to mention anything about that brother?

It's quite a staggering Immanuel God with us comes man without ceasing to be God but it becomes true as two natures in one person. Redemption which he'd foundation of the west astound us. We need to be careful with it need to make clear for example that when humanity to himself there was no change in his Godhead in his in his Godness man the man Christ Jesus and allegate the incarnation.

I'm not saying everybody does this but I think it's easy to relegate the incarnation to a few days or sometimes even a few hours. Yes and you know we who are reformed Christians and.

Most bible-believing Christians regardless of what denomination they are in or what theological camp they find themselves most conservative bible-believing Christians believe in the immutability of God that God is not changing.

But but can you not categorize this one thing as a change that occurred with God. I mean it didn't change in God's will or God's uh mindset towards things. It's not like he changed his mind about something and it's not like the incarnation was an afterthought that he did not already know would happen or anything like that.

But it was a change that occurred wasn't it.

Um of God. Right. I think that's important point. Um I think sometimes it might be subtracted by taking to himself he actually was. He was stooping down to us in space. Incarnate son. Um so. Incarnate son.

Yes there is there is change there is development. Uh there is growth. He grows in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and men. Um and in that sense we can talk about change. But I think we need to be very careful to defend against any suggestion that there's a change in the nature of God by him becoming man.

Amen. I'm going to give our email address.

In case anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own it's chrisarnson at gmail .com. C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if indeed you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous. If you are asking about a personal and private matter such as you may disagree with your pastor on something we're talking about or your own spouse. Or perhaps you're a member of a denomination that denies what we are talking about or in a cult of some kind and you don't want to identify yourself we fully understand that and we will grant your request to remain anonymous.

But other than that please identify at least your first name city and state and country. Well let's move into one of the globally known parts of the bible that are even known. Or that is even known by many who only have a cursory knowledge of the bible stories people who aren't even christian.

And that's the story of the visitation of mary by an angel who was announcing to her what would occur in her womb. If you could tell us a little bit more about that story.

And one of the points that i wanted to make to them and you've you've hinted at this in a way chris it's quite in our bible this history is actually the fruition uh that was established from the foundation of the world well from before the foundation of the world.

And that is is explicitly identified that in genesis chapter three that the champion of fallen mankind and all the way through the the bible you see what you might call unusual hopeful births she could never have had a child whatever else it might be.

And a son who does sometimes wonderful things in the kingdom of god. And what you have in in luke chapter one which is one of the the classic passages dealing with this is the and the most marvelous mary is says you have found favor important there to perhaps to emphasize and you would know this as a former roman catholic that mary is a that he will be great the son of the highest of his father david will reign over the end.

It's wonderful to one good by this. I don't i don't know a man i've had no sexual relationships with any man up to this point. And the angel says to her together uh a body for god. Uh god the son and the holy one who is to be born will be called the son of god.

So you've got now wonderful demonstration of god's now from the womb of a virgin probably more accurately to say than the.

Virgin birth amen. And uh i actually uh arranged a debate recently here in carlisle pennsylvania at the carlisle theater between between dr tony costa who is a professor of apologetics at toronto baptist seminary and another friend of mine who's a roman catholic robert singenis.

Robert has been a part of several debates that i have arranged over the years primarily with dr james or white of alpha and omega ministries. But this last one was with dr tony costa. And during this debate uh robert singenis made the startling proclamation that without mary there's no salvation.

Because if mary had not given her permission to be impregnated by the holy spirit immaculately uh that if she had had turned down this opportunity and told the angel no i'm sorry i'm not going to do that.

Or if she told that to god then mankind would have been doomed and we would all be in hell now. To me first of all that was an absurd statement because even if you wanted to take that strange look at things where uh the the virgin that would conceive the the christ child had to give her permission you would think that god would have had a plan b if mary said no and he would have found another uh woman to uh be immaculately conceived in her mother's womb as they claim mary was a lot of people think the immaculate conception was involving the conception of christ.

And although that might be considered an immaculate conception the doctrine that the roman catholics are referring to is mary's own immaculate conception in her mother's womb. But yeah you would think that you would think that god would have had a plan b.

But but beside that uh there is nowhere in the text where mary is being asked for her permission and where she's granting permission she is being given a prophecy of something that would be soon happening to her.

Am i right.

Is in conception. Oh of course i know that i know that the catholics don't believe that and i'm sorry if i used an improper word that was not i. I say that because you know that there are other um there are about the the nature of the virgin conception and the virgin birth.

Um. So i think that's always maybe a point worth making. Um but yeah before this. So she has this wonderful um of that particular portion you say there's that they're in place here something that is forced upon mary and a number of episodes in in in the incarnation narrative.

So what if what i had managed to. Yeah there. But this is god's together upon mary. Yes. And even though mary was.

Willing uh it was this was not forced upon her. Just as uh unlike the arminian caricature of what calvinists believe about our own faith uh we are not forced into heaven or dragged there kicking and screaming against our well we are made willing uh to follow christ uh and and you had i'm sorry.

Drawn mary to himself. He'd worked in her that. Don't play this on the other hand. What an honor. What. Oh yeah. And mary is honored. She she is favored among women. Side of amen. That favor it's not merited favor and yet nevertheless of his maidservant to say yeah.

She's the mother. Uh she's she's the mother of the incarnate son. And that is a and it's mary's privilege and god's good gift.

Amen. And uh so let's get more uh into the actual uh virgin conception of jesus and the fact that this is where jesus christ first arrives on the scene as a man not the first time he came into existence which is actually uh the uh oneness.

Pentecostals uh at least the united pentecostal church international uh believes. And i believe most modalists and uh anti-trinitarian uh groups that claim to be christian believe that jesus christ uh actually did not exist in eternity past and that he came uh to be in the manger.

Uh they believe that he took upon the role of the father or one of the role once held by the father as the one god uh for all of humanity. But they don't believe that there was a second person of the godhead before it was only god the father that existed in the old covenant.

So they have a even though they still would claim to believe in the deity of christ unlike the jehovah's witnesses and some others. They have a very heretical understanding of of this uh incarnation because they they believe this was day one for.

Jesus christ's existence. Yeah maybe there'd be a new phase or a new mode of divine being or divine existence. Um many of your heroes might already be aware that looking at events that's matthew mark and luke a little later than the others and it and you can see the almost the mechanics of the show.

And i think there's a sense this gives us a glib give us if you like the full performance john takes us behind the scenes and shows us what's taking place that we can't normally see these wonderful statements and their repeated states by a testament.

John begins by telling us i have come down from heaven and so you've got yet also comes down from heaven to do the will of the father who sent him. So there's there's this classic trinitarian theology that's just woven into these narratives that you have an in mary in order to create a body you gotta read with with one eye and the other eye.

Firmly. Now one thing i brought this up recently and i apologize.

If this is this wording or this language is offensive to some of our listeners but i think that our listeners should be aware of some important things that people who uh are opponents of historic protestantism believe uh the i believe that this is a diminishing of the humiliation of christ the or the uh the lowliness of christ when he became incarnate.

Uh the roman catholic church seems to uh agree with us on many core things other than the gospel of course. But they uh they do i believe diminish the lowly state of the son of man by requiring first of all in their own theology that mary be a virgin forever uh that and also that she be sinless uh in order to carry him.

But they even go as far as saying that mary did not lose her hymen when christ was delivered that that was some kind of a miraculous thing that that christ was able to be born physically from her without any breaking or removal of that part of the female anatomy.

And this is really when you're getting into superstition about this event in history and i do you agree that it is in some way unconsciously on the part of the catholics diminishing the humiliation and the the sacrifice that the second person of the trinity did indeed uh encounter and and and willingly.

Participate in by becoming man. Yeah if i remember rightly there's it may be christ emerging from wow um i think the tragedy of something. One of the tragedies of something like that. Chris. Is that. Yes on the one hand you you neutral event which as you say is the you don't add to the wonder of it if you feel the need supernatural and even threatened the the supernatural event itself.

Unaided human reason this kind of statement incarnate son of god come into the world to save sinners. But if you add to it these kinds of nonsenses you don't embellish mate that supernatural you what you're actually doing.

And that's that's tragic. You've got this this pure you not only lose sight of that human you actually really and uh you make it harder to.

See it rather than yeah. And ironically uh the roman catholic church uh claims that the woman giving birth in revelation 12 is mary and i'll just read that first part of the chapter. And then a great wonder appeared in heaven.

There was a woman who was clothed with the sun and the moon was under her feet. She had a crown of 12 stars on her head she was pregnant and cried out with pain because she was about to give birth. It is interesting that the roman catholic church says this is clearly mary the mother of jesus.

And yet they do not believe that mary the mother of jesus had any pain when she gave birth to jesus. This is another thing i think that removes the.

Humiliation aspect of the whole uh incarnation and virgin birth story. Make sure. Well i don't know there's no i mean what a journey to make and then labor maybe sometime later. The uh the magi the wise men it's real life amen.

And of course the uh the roman catholic church has no explanation as to.

Why a sinless mother was required for a sinless savior if the sinless mother did not have a.

Mother yeah i mean just the. The logical traps that you end up catching yourself in are quite.

Impressive in that sense. Well we have to go to our first station break. And by the way uh pastor jeremy i forwarded you uh an email with a question from our friend joe in slovenia who is a faithful listener of iron trip and zion radio so you should have that in front of you.

It's quite long which is why i forwarded it to you and when we return from the break we will have you address that question. If anybody else would like to join joe in slovenia with your own question. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away god willing we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

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Cvbbs .com. And now we are back with our guest jeremy walker. We are talking about the incarnation right now and then in the second hour we're going to move on to life in christ becoming a disciple of the lord jesus christ.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And uh joe in slovenia sent us this question. Is the incarnation the ultimate expression of the absolute inability of mankind to orchestrate his own acceptance before god i'm asking this in light of the whole of the old testament salvation history in which israel repeatedly showed time after time that mankind could never accomplish the fulfillment of the promised redemption beginning in genesis 3 15 running through the noahic kind of covenant abrahamic covenant and the exodus synodic covenant judges davidic kingdom and promised renewed kingdom of the post-eclectic prophets.

In light of the whole of the old testament. Isn't the incarnation a logical and painfully obvious necessity for god himself to fulfill his covenant promises. Because man mankind clearly demonstrated that they could not produce a messiah or a redemption of their own.

Uh next time uh brother joe and slovenian uh make it a little easier for me to read your question. I'm only i'm only kidding joe. But go ahead.

This is uh this is a side the necessity saved his lost feet. If there were it's one of the wonders does in the gospel we would. We could never have come up with the scheme that god did for salvation. And even if we had who would have dared to suggest to the god of heaven that he he might save us at the cost of his own son.

In terms of the bigger key one that joey is asking about his inability to orchestrate his own acceptance he tries to put that in the context of the whole of old testament salvation history that running on from jennifer fill his cup in some ways it's of god's promised god's covenant promises that he would do this if you go back.

Um if joe would go all the way back to the passage he quoted in genesis 3 does god declare he is acting. In this i will put enmity between you and the woman that are these these two great representative portions of mankind and then zeros back in.

Again i i think i hope his wife's name eve because she's the mother of all living of a savior. And the lord then makes and god clothes of mankind to produce their own messiah their own salvation. I'd want to say actually god promised from the beginning that a messiah his own god should act absolutely in the beginning it is god's and against god's.

Gracious promises. Yeah in fact i'm not saying i don't want to put words in joe's mouth and i'm not saying or accusing him of believing this but uh if i'm not mistaken i believe a great portion of dispensationalists almost view it in that way that uh the cross was plan b because the jews rejected their messiah are you familiar with it.

Yeah i i don't i can't speak to that.

Specifically. But i know that there are some different ways of beings and the pointers of the old covenant um that that people are invariably saved in god's promised savior and his salvation but from the beginning saved now they may not have known his name they may not have known the details of what he did from the beginning to the end in god's promised.

Redeemer and the redemption that well i'd like you to uh wrap up this hour by summarizing in about four minutes time what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding.

The incarnation the reason we celebrate christmas this is not this is not some invention of man's imagination that the only savior that we the marvel of the incarnation the wonder of the incarnation is that god enters time and space humanity salvation mooning death on the cross.

That is he he god. That sin that our sins demand from a holy god and provides in himself a righteousness that makes us acceptable with god. And the only person who can provide this that is divinely acceptable is god himself.

And so we have god the son come as man who provides what we need. And yet we need someone who can stand in our place we deserve and do so. Be just as paul says. Three. And the justifier of the one who has faith in jesus.

And so when you come to the incarnation if you like is to use joe's language that my savior your savior the savior of any sinner be one who is both who would have dared that. That is the way that the virgin and the one who has those two natures together god and man.

And that's the wonder and the the marvel and the gracious incarnation that who can accomplish for us what we could never have accomplished. This is joseph's son. Who does he think he is. And christ is saying you need to see and believe that i am i am the one who has been spread of heaven and the bread of life.

I'm the one who's come down to. That's why it's so.

Rich and that's why it's so vital. Amen. And coming up after our midway break we're going to be switching our topic to life in christ becoming and being a disciple of the lord jesus christ a book by our guest jeremy walker.

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