December 21, 2017 Show with Jeremy Walker on “The Incarnation” AND “Life in Christ: Becoming a Disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listeners, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good afternoon Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via

live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you a happy Thursday on this 21st

day of December 2017 and I am so delighted

that we have a returning guest who's become one of my very favorite guests and amazingly even though he

calls in from the UK, his phone connection is clearer than anybody it

seems that calls in from the United States.

I'm not certain why that is.

Maybe that's just a reason for giving cheers to the UK telephone companies out

there but Jeremy Walker is our guest today, pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church

of Crawley in West Sussex, England and he's an author and a

blogger at Reformation 21 and The Wanderer.

Today we are addressing two themes.

The first with Christmas approaching, in fact with Christmas Day arriving on Monday

of next week.

This is the second to last interview that we're having before Christmas of

2017.

So we're going to have a program on the incarnation for the first hour and

during the second hour we're going to be discussing one of Jeremy Walker's books, Life

in Christ Becoming a Disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ and it's my honor and privilege to

welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Jeremy Walker.

Thank you very much Chris,.

I'm delighted to not only be doing all of that but championing British engineering and telecommunication.

Well I'm just speaking the truth brother, it's just I always can relax when I know you're calling because I

have no fear of technical difficulties with phone lines or over modulation or muffled

voices or anything like that.

That's good tonight.

Well even though you've given our listeners this information again, the audience of Iron Trip and Zion Radio seems to

be growing constantly and we have new listeners contacting us almost every single

day.

So therefore I want you to explain Maiden Bower Baptist Church primarily for

their sake since they may be discovering you for the.

First time.

Okay, so in the United Kingdom

it's from Gatwick

75 and I'm a co -pastor of the congregation at the moment with my

father in March.

23 years of service in the same congregation so that will be a

big change

for us and we've

got a

congregation

this church

our needs and help us.

Well forgive me if I've already asked you this but are you familiar with my former pastor

David Campbell who is now pastoring the North Preston Evangelical Church.

I do know him,.

Well yes we've had opportunities to speak on several occasions and I esteem him very

highly.

Yes he's a dear brother and I miss him very dearly even though I love my new pastor John Miller here Grace

Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I still miss my dear friend David Campbell, he was a very rare and unique man and

loved his preaching, loved his friendship and look forward to an

opportunity to see him again at some point if the Lord allows since I've

never been to England so I don't know if he ever plans on visiting the States again.

I'm sorry brother?

Yeah I do want to and hopefully that will

happen and I have been on a UK radio program, Unbelievable, perhaps you're familiar with that.

They interviewed me on the same day that they interviewed a Roman Catholic who was a former Anglican.

They interviewed me because I was a former or am a former Roman Catholic who

became a Bible -believing Christian Protestant and they also interviewed a former

Anglican who became a Roman Catholic and then the discussion developed into a debate which is something that

I did not know beforehand but I think I handled myself fairly well, a lot better than I thought that I would

have since I had never engaged personally in a public debate before.

Even though I've arranged nearly 30 of them I have not actually debated

before but I'm going to just give a little plug to my friend and former

pastor's website that's North Preston Evangelical Church in

Preston, United Kingdom and that website is npec

.org .uk n -p -e -c for North Preston Evangelical Church

.org .uk and in fact Pastor Dave told me not long

after relocating to the UK a young man showed up at the worship

services there at the North Preston Church one Sunday morning and said that he heard about the church from

Chris Arntzen and I on Sherpins Iron Radio.

So it's a small world you never know who's listening to this program.

Yeah great.

Yeah well.

I'm going to be repeating that information as well so in

fact let me do that right now anyway m -a -b -a -c -h

.org is the website for the Maiden Bower Baptist Church where our guest

today is pastoring m -a -b -a -c -h you can remember that for

Massachusetts Bach even though that's not what supposed to stand for as far as the URL

it's an easy way to remember it m -a -b -a -c -h .org.

Well the first thing that we are discussing today is the incarnation

of Jesus Christ.

This is a monumental event in the history of the universe

because God did something that he had never done before.

Jesus Christ having been already in existence from all eternity

past in addition to all eternity in the future he

was always the second person of the Godhead but he became fully man as well as being fully

God that is quite a remarkable occurrence in the history of the universe and the history of

God.

You care to mention anything about that brother?

It's quite a

staggering

Immanuel God with us

comes man without ceasing to be God but it becomes true

as two natures in one person.

Redemption which he'd foundation of

the west astound us.

We need to be careful with it need to make clear for example that

when humanity to himself there was no change in

his Godhead in

his in his Godness man the man Christ Jesus

and allegate

the incarnation.

I'm not saying everybody does this but I think it's easy to relegate the incarnation to a few days or sometimes even a few

hours.

Yes and you know we who are reformed Christians

and.

Most bible -believing Christians regardless of what denomination they are in or what theological camp they find

themselves most conservative bible -believing Christians

believe in the immutability of God that God is not changing.

But but can you not categorize this one thing as a change that occurred with God.

I mean it didn't change in God's will or God's uh

mindset towards things.

It's not like he changed his mind about something and it's not like the incarnation was an afterthought that he

did not already know would happen or anything like that.

But it was a change that occurred wasn't it.

Um of God.

Right.

I think that's

important

point.

Um I think sometimes it might be subtracted by taking to himself

he actually was.

He was stooping down to

us in space.

Incarnate son.

Um so.

Incarnate son.

Yes there is there is change there is development.

Uh there is growth.

He grows in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and men.

Um and in that sense we can talk about change.

But I think we need to be very careful to defend against any suggestion that there's a change

in the nature of God by him becoming man.

Amen.

I'm going to give our email address.

In case anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own it's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if

indeed you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous.

If you are asking about a personal and private matter such as you may

disagree with your pastor on something we're talking about or your own spouse.

Or perhaps you're a member of a denomination that denies what we are talking about or in a cult of

some kind and you don't want to identify yourself we fully understand that and we

will grant your request to remain anonymous.

But other than that please identify at least your first name city and state and country.

Well let's move into one of the globally known

parts of the bible that are even known.

Or that is even known by many who only have a cursory knowledge of the

bible stories people who aren't even christian.

And that's the story of the visitation of mary by an angel

who was announcing to her what would occur in her womb.

If you could tell us a little bit more about that story.

And one of

the points that i wanted to make to them and you've you've hinted at

this in a way chris

it's

quite in

our bible

this history is actually the

fruition uh that was established from the

foundation of the world well from before the foundation of the world.

And that is is explicitly identified that in genesis chapter

three that the champion

of fallen mankind and all the way through the the bible

you see what you might call unusual hopeful

births she could never have had a child

whatever else it might be.

And a son who does

sometimes wonderful things in the kingdom of god.

And what you have in in luke chapter one which is one of the the classic passages

dealing with this is the and the most marvelous

mary is says you have

found favor important there to perhaps to

emphasize and you would know this as a former roman catholic that mary

is a that he

will be great

the son of the highest

of his father david will reign over the end.

It's wonderful

to one good by this.

I don't i don't know a man i've had no sexual relationships with any man up to this point.

And the angel says to her together

uh a body for god.

Uh god the son and the holy one who is to be born will be called the son of god.

So you've got now wonderful demonstration of

god's now from

the womb of a virgin probably more accurately to say than the.

Virgin birth amen.

And uh i actually uh arranged a debate recently here in

carlisle pennsylvania at the carlisle theater between between dr

tony costa who is a professor of apologetics at toronto baptist seminary and

another friend of mine who's a roman catholic robert singenis.

Robert has been a part of several debates that i have arranged over the years primarily with

dr james or white of alpha and omega ministries.

But this last one was with dr tony costa.

And during this debate uh robert singenis made the startling

proclamation that without mary there's no

salvation.

Because if mary had not given her permission

to be impregnated by the holy spirit immaculately uh

that if she had had turned down this opportunity and

told the angel no i'm sorry i'm not going to do that.

Or if she told that to god then mankind would have been doomed and we would all be in

hell now.

To me first of all that was an absurd statement because even if you wanted to

take that strange look at things where uh the the virgin that would

conceive the the christ child had to give her permission you

would think that god would have had a plan b if mary said no and he would have found another

uh woman to uh be immaculately conceived in her mother's womb as they

claim mary was a lot of people think the immaculate conception was involving the

conception of christ.

And although that might be considered an immaculate conception the doctrine that the roman catholics are

referring to is mary's own immaculate conception in her mother's womb.

But yeah you would think that you would think that god would have had a plan b.

But but beside that uh there is nowhere in the text where mary is

being asked for her permission and where she's granting permission she is being given a prophecy of something that would be

soon happening to her.

Am i right.

Is in conception.

Oh of course i know that i know that the catholics don't believe that and i'm

sorry if i used an improper word that was not i.

I say that because you know that there are other um there

are about the the nature of the virgin conception and the virgin birth.

Um.

So i think that's always maybe a point worth making.

Um but

yeah before this.

So she has this wonderful um of that particular

portion you

say

there's

that

they're in place

here

something that is forced upon mary

and a number

of episodes

in in in the incarnation narrative.

So what if what i had managed to.

Yeah there.

But this is god's

together

upon mary.

Yes.

And even though mary was.

Willing uh it was this was not forced upon her.

Just as uh unlike the arminian caricature of what calvinists

believe about our own faith uh we are not forced into heaven or

dragged there kicking and screaming against our well we are made willing uh to follow

christ uh and and you had i'm sorry.

Drawn mary to himself.

He'd worked in her

that.

Don't play this on the other hand.

What an honor.

What.

Oh yeah.

And mary is honored.

She she is favored among women.

Side of amen.

That favor

it's not merited favor and

yet nevertheless

of his

maidservant to say

yeah.

She's the mother.

Uh she's she's the mother of the incarnate son.

And that is a and it's mary's

privilege and god's good gift.

Amen.

And uh so let's get more uh into the actual

uh virgin conception of jesus and the fact that this is where

jesus christ first arrives on the scene as a man

not the first time he came into existence which is actually uh the uh oneness.

Pentecostals uh at least the united pentecostal church international

uh believes.

And i believe most modalists and uh anti -trinitarian uh groups that

claim to be christian believe that jesus christ uh

actually did not exist in eternity past and that he came uh

to be in the manger.

Uh they believe that he took upon the role of the father

or one of the role once held by the father as the one god uh for all of humanity.

But they don't believe that there was a second person of the godhead before it was only god the father

that existed in the old covenant.

So they have a even though they still would claim to believe in the deity of christ unlike the jehovah's witnesses and some others.

They have a very heretical understanding of of this uh incarnation because they they

believe this was day one for.

Jesus christ's existence.

Yeah maybe there'd be a new phase or a new mode of divine being or divine existence.

Um

many of your heroes might already be aware that

looking at events that's matthew mark

and luke

a little

later than

the

others and it

and you can see the

almost the mechanics of the show.

And i think there's a sense this gives us a

glib give us

if you like the full performance john takes us behind the

scenes and shows us what's taking place that we can't normally see

these wonderful statements and their repeated states

by a testament.

John begins by telling us

i have come down from heaven and so you've

got yet also comes down from heaven to do the will of the

father who sent him.

So there's there's this classic trinitarian theology that's just woven into these

narratives that you have

an in mary in order to

create a body you

gotta

read with with

one eye and the other eye.

Firmly.

Now one thing i brought

this up recently and i apologize.

If this is this wording or this language is offensive to some of our listeners but i think that our listeners should be

aware of some important things that people who

uh are opponents of historic protestantism believe

uh the i believe that this is a diminishing of the humiliation of

christ the or the uh the lowliness of christ when he

became incarnate.

Uh the roman catholic church seems to uh agree with us on many core

things other than the gospel of course.

But they uh they do i believe diminish the lowly

state of the son of man by requiring first of all in their own theology

that mary be a virgin forever uh that and also that she be sinless

uh in order to carry him.

But they even go as far as saying that mary did not lose

her hymen when christ was delivered that that was some kind of a miraculous thing that

that christ was able to be born physically from her without any breaking

or removal of that part of the female anatomy.

And this is really when you're getting into superstition about this event

in history and i do you agree that it is in some way unconsciously on the part of the catholics diminishing

the humiliation and the the sacrifice that the second person of the

trinity did indeed uh encounter and and and willingly.

Participate in by becoming man.

Yeah if i remember

rightly

there's it may be christ emerging from

wow um

i think the tragedy of something.

One of the tragedies of something like that.

Chris.

Is that.

Yes on the one hand you you neutral event

which as you say is the you

don't add to the wonder of

it if you feel the need

supernatural and even

threatened the the supernatural event itself.

Unaided human reason this kind

of statement

incarnate son of god come into the world to save sinners.

But if you add to it these kinds of nonsenses you don't embellish

mate that supernatural you what

you're actually doing.

And that's that's tragic.

You've got this this pure

you not only

lose sight of that human you actually really and uh

you make it harder to.

See it rather than yeah.

And ironically uh the roman catholic church uh claims that the

woman giving birth in revelation 12 is mary

and i'll just read that first part of the chapter.

And then a great wonder appeared in heaven.

There was a woman who was clothed with the sun and the moon was under her feet.

She had a crown of 12 stars on her head she was pregnant and cried out with

pain because she was about to give birth.

It is interesting that the roman catholic church says this is clearly mary the mother of jesus.

And yet they do not believe that mary the mother of jesus had any pain when she gave

birth to jesus.

This is another thing i think that removes the.

Humiliation aspect of the whole uh incarnation and

virgin birth

story.

Make sure.

Well i

don't know

there's no i mean what a journey

to make and

then

labor

maybe sometime later.

The uh the magi the wise men

it's

real life

amen.

And of course the uh the

roman catholic church has

no explanation as to.

Why a sinless mother was required for a sinless savior if the

sinless mother did not have a.

Mother yeah i mean just the.

The logical traps that you end up catching yourself in are quite.

Impressive in that sense.

Well we have to go to our first station break.

And by the way uh pastor jeremy i forwarded you uh an email with a question from

our friend joe in slovenia who is a faithful listener of iron trip and zion radio

so you should have that in front of you.

It's quite long which is why i forwarded it to you and when we return from the break we will have you address that

question.

If anybody else would like to join joe in slovenia with your own question.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away god willing we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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And now we are back with our guest jeremy walker.

We are talking about the incarnation right now and then in the second hour we're going to move on to life in

christ becoming a disciple of the lord jesus christ.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And uh joe in slovenia sent us this question.

Is the incarnation the ultimate expression of the absolute inability of mankind to orchestrate

his own acceptance before god i'm asking this in light of the whole of the old testament

salvation history in which israel repeatedly showed time after time that mankind

could never accomplish the fulfillment of the promised redemption beginning in genesis 3 15

running through the noahic kind of covenant abrahamic covenant and the

exodus synodic covenant judges davidic kingdom and promised

renewed kingdom of the post -eclectic prophets.

In light of the whole of the old testament.

Isn't the incarnation a logical and painfully obvious necessity for god

himself to fulfill his covenant promises.

Because man mankind clearly demonstrated that they could not produce a

messiah or a redemption of their own.

Uh next time uh brother joe and slovenian uh make it a little easier for me to read your

question.

I'm only i'm only kidding joe.

But go ahead.

This is uh this

is a side the

necessity saved

his lost

feet.

If there

were it's one of

the wonders does in the gospel we

would.

We could never have come up with the scheme that god did for salvation.

And even if we had who would have dared to suggest to the god of heaven that he

he might save us at the cost of his own son.

In terms of the bigger key one

that joey is asking about

his inability to orchestrate his own acceptance he tries to

put that in the context of the whole of old testament salvation

history

that running

on from

jennifer fill his cup

in some ways it's of god's promised god's covenant promises that he would

do this if you go back.

Um if joe would go all the way back to the passage he quoted in genesis 3 does

god declare he is acting.

In this i will put enmity between you and the woman that

are these these

two great representative portions of mankind and then zeros

back in.

Again i i

think i hope

his wife's name eve because she's the mother of all living of

a savior.

And the lord

then makes

and god

clothes

of mankind

to produce their own messiah their own salvation.

I'd want to say actually god promised from the beginning that a messiah

his own

god should act absolutely

in the

beginning it is god's and

against god's.

Gracious promises.

Yeah in fact i'm not saying i don't want to put words in joe's mouth and i'm not saying or accusing him of

believing this but uh if i'm not mistaken i believe a great portion of

dispensationalists almost view it in that way that uh

the cross was plan b because the jews rejected their messiah

are you familiar with it.

Yeah i i don't i can't speak to that.

Specifically.

But i know that there are some different

ways of

beings and the

pointers

of the old covenant um that that people are

invariably saved in god's promised savior

and his salvation but from the beginning saved

now they may not have known his name they may not have known the details

of what he did

from the beginning to the end in

god's promised.

Redeemer and the redemption that well i'd like you

to uh wrap up this hour by summarizing in about four minutes time

what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding.

The incarnation the reason we celebrate christmas

this

is

not this is

not some invention of man's imagination

that the only savior that we

the marvel of

the incarnation the wonder of the incarnation

is that god enters time

and space

humanity

salvation mooning death

on the cross.

That is

he he god.

That sin that our sins demand from a

holy god and provides in himself a righteousness that makes us acceptable

with god.

And the only person who can provide this that is

divinely acceptable is god himself.

And so we have god the son come as man who provides what we need.

And yet we need someone who can stand in our place we deserve and

do so.

Be just as paul says.

Three.

And the justifier of the one who has faith in jesus.

And so when you come to the incarnation if you like is to use joe's

language that

my savior your savior the savior of any sinner be

one who

is both

who would have

dared that.

That is the way that

the virgin

and the

one who has those two natures together god and

man.

And that's the wonder and the the marvel and the

gracious

incarnation that who can

accomplish for us what we could never have accomplished.

This is

joseph's son.

Who does he think he is.

And christ is saying you need to see and believe that i am i am the one who

has been spread of heaven and the bread of life.

I'm the one who's come down

to.

That's why it's so.

Rich and that's why it's so vital.

Amen.

And coming up after our midway break we're going to be switching our topic to life in christ becoming

and being a disciple of the lord jesus christ a book by our guest jeremy

walker.

So don't go away god willing we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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To the church at galatia.

For am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man.

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Hi.

I'm mark lukins pastor of providence baptist church.

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We are in nofolk massachusetts.

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Providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio welcome back.

This is.

Chris arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today uh for the full two hours with one

hour to go is our friend uh pastor jeff jeremy walker and he

is the pastor of maiden bower baptist church which is located in

crowley in west sussex england and he is discussing for this hour

life in christ becoming and being a disciple of the lord jesus which is the

title of his book published by reformation heritage books one of his books

published by rhb.

And uh we are going to be discussing that a very important topic any moment now but before we do so

i just have a couple of important announcements to make.

The g3 conference is returning to atlanta georgia and

i am going to be there god willing uh with an iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth and very

uh providentially the theme of the g3 conference this time around is knowing

god a biblical understanding of discipleship which is the very

subject of our program for the second hour today in regard to

pastor jeremy walker's book.

And this is no doubt going to be a phenomenal conference.

I hope you can join me at this conference.

And if you do come to the conference i hope that you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth january

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The conference begins on the 17th in the daytime with a spanish speaking edition of the

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be approximately 7 p .m on january 17th.

Then the actual conference part of the g3 in january begins on

the 18th and continues through the 20th with such speakers as stephen

lawson vody baucom phil johnson keith getty hb charles jr tim challis josh byas james

white tom askell anthony metheny and michael kruger david miller paul trip todd friel derrick thomas

martha peace justin peters and stephen nichols.

If you would like to register for the g3 conference whether as an attender or even as an exhibitors

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But money is a requirement to do things like i'm doing.

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Well now we are back with our discussion with pastor jeremy walker of maiden bower baptist church we are going

to be discussing for this last hour of the program his book life in christ becoming

and being a disciple of the lord jesus.

And before we actually do that our friend in slovenia

just had a clarifying statement to make.

Uh in regard to his question he says my idea is that we look back on the

incarnation in light of salvation history in the old testament we should as the

jews should have expected to be just as god had promised and prophesied.

So anything to say about uh joe and slovenia's clarification.

Pastor jeremy okay.

And uh our email address chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you care to ask a question about life in christ becoming and being a disciple of the lord jesus.

And by the way joe in slovenia you have won a free copy of this book.

Uh compliments of our friends at reformation heritage books.

And also compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com who will be shipping that out to you at no cost to

you or to iron sharpens iron radio.

Well uh first of all uh pastor jeremy.

What was the inspiration behind writing this book.

To begin with

where i

was invited to go and and and try and plot out

salvation to

gel as an idea be saved.

What

what are

the if you like the

the man that

we undergo.

Uh what will i.

What can i expect in coming

to and then finally going to be with christ.

What will that look like and feel like as i

and the.

There is a debate even amongst.

Bible believing uh or should i say professedly bible believing evangelicals.

About discipleship itself.

Uh some will say that discipleship is a wonderful thing it's a grand thing

it's a very fruit -bearing and productive thing.

But they will not say that being a disciple is something that will automatically happen

or by necessity will happen uh if one is a truly

born -again believer.

And there are those on the other side of that debate many of whom are in the reformed

camp although not all of them are who insist that being a disciple

is a natural good fruit of one who is truly born again.

But why don't you even define disciple first before we even.

Go into that dispute the disciple is a follower of the

lord jesus christ and that means someone who

benefits our savior his

commandments.

So in that sense the idea that you could be you could be a christian but not a

disciple would be biblically speaking a nonsense.

A disciple chapter

10 where he says my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

And that's a lovely image of true discipleship.

I believe it was the uh the anglican are

marked in the ear and in the foot and and that's

that christ jesus and therefore walks in his ways.

That's an excellent quote i.

Did not remember that quote by ryle and i will have to make note of it.

Um now of course the uh then the individuals that i mentioned that deny that

as being something that is a litmus test of genuine rebirth.

They will take the truth the reformation truth

of sola fide and they will distort it into something

that the bible and god himself never intended it to be.

And they actually will uh fulfill the accusations

of roman catholics and others who deny sola fide saying that this is a necessary consequence of that teaching.

They will say that one as long as they for an instant believes in

christ that they could immediately even lose

faith in christ.

As even someone as renowned as charles stanley wrote in his book on eternal security

someone could abandon christ to live like the devil the rest of his life

perhaps for decades.

And that person will still enter through the gates of heaven because of the fact that they accepted

jesus into their heart as they say another phrase which is nowhere to be found in the bible.

But uh but this is ludicrous isn't it.

There's nothing biblical about this whatsoever.

Yeah i.

Think there's a there's

a tragic

in the past i once

with god

truly in

christ

and that faith

it's god's gift in union with

him and that's

that's the motif it

is.

It is life

logged out apart from jesus.

It is a life that is in christ in the means of that faith

which god the abiding.

Uh susan margaret in dauphin county pennsylvania has an excellent question.

It's actually a comment i guess more than a question but it involves a question she

says.

Don't you think that it is dangerous for us to view the term disciples and

those who are described by that term only as those who physically walked with christ on the earth.

Often when we refer to or hear the term disciple we are not thinking of anything contemporary but only

are thinking back to the days of jesus such as his apostles and the crowds.

That followed him.

Isn't that a dangerous way to look at things.

Um and and it may be that i've given me that impression by using this

language of i mean about

a life

that you

knew.

She's absolutely right to say that a true disciple is not simply someone

who's christ before

before he went up to heaven time with him.

In fact christ experienced to go and make

disciples of all nations.

They are the ones who are

to call by faith and not by sight.

So yeah we must understand disciples in its

as all those local

sense.

Thank you susan.

Margaret you've also received.

A free copy or you will i should say also receive a free copy of life in christ becoming

and being a disciple of the lord jesus compliments of reformation heritage books and compliments of cv bbs

.com.

We'll be shipping that out to you.

Please give us your full mailing address.

Uh one thing before i go into some specific chapter headings in your book uh

i think to make this relevant to christmas that there are

multitudes of people even outside of christendom who

view the christmas story as a precious wonderful

event.

They look upon a jesus who is safe a jesus who is

an infant a helpless and harmless infant cooing in a manger

with adoring parents hovering over him and being approached by

shepherds.

And also in some erroneous accounts of nativity scenes

uh the three wise men which did not uh visit jesus until he was a young boy he

was already in joseph's house and no longer in a manger.

But the the point is that they view jesus from a perspective

of a safe place.

And being a disciple uh is what is required for any of

these people who who rejoice in their minds the birth of the savior

uh they cannot really uh or they should not really have any comfort

and joy from this story if they are not a disciple if they are not

surrendering all to follow him.

Or be willing to surrender all to follow him if they are not publicly identifying

themselves as his disciples in in light of the fact that they could lose

spouses lose relationships with children lose employment uh

be fined financially.

And who knows what's uh ahead for both us in the united states and you over there on

the other side of the pond uh in regard to prison sentences that could be awaiting us uh

we already have brethren in other parts of the globe who are being tortured and murdered uh

because they are disciples of christ.

Isn't this a a very uh sobering thing for anyone to remember who thinks.

That they are adoring this uh harmless and helpless

infant of that right

there in in the bible and

find that baby or that infant

by that stage

they they fall down and they worship him

they recognize that this one

as you said this is the one

a sentimental jesus is the

one who would have fallen.

Chapter eight.

Um who wouldn't deny himself and take up his cross and follow me

i for my sake and the gospels will save it.

But what would it profit a man if he gains the whole.

What will a man give in exchange

generation.

Be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels.

A christ who

comes to live

by this sacrificial death in order to make peace with god.

You you you may have a but you don't

have a savior.

And we have to go believe it or not.

Already we have to go to our final break and before i go to the break i am emailing you or

forwarding to you pastor jeremy another excellent question but also rather long

question from our friend in slovenia joe on this time on the subject that we are

discussing being a disciple.

So you'll have that in front of you and you can look that over during the break.

And this is our final break.

It will be briefer than the last one.

So please be patient with us and we look forward to receiving your questions at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you want to get in line because we are rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back god willing.

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Well we're now we're back to the conclusion or the concluding portion i should say of our

discussion uh with our guest today uh pastor jeremy walker.

And before the break we had a another question from joe from slovenia that i forwarded to you.

And he says this evening i was blessed by book 1 chapter 14 of calvin's

institutes treatment of god's ministering angels.

And you just mentioned the angels just moments ago.

Pastor jeremy as disciples of jesus christ assisted by and protected by ministering

angels we are truly in a position of privilege and blessing beyond anything the world might offer.

Does brother jeremy touch on these blessings in the life of christ.

What types of blessings in god's providence through the activity of ministering angels should we take comfort

in.

What types of warnings should we heed regarding the inappropriate or erroneous understandings

of ministering angels.

Thank you both for encouraging us today.

In our privileges and blessings in jesus christ.

Are you there pastor jeremy.

And uh i am i i've.

You mean in your book life in christ the actual life in christ.

Uh calvin's treatment i think if i remember

abney

systematic theory and

also

called what

does the bible say or teach about angels

um that if joe wants to look into that a bit more detail but

to what the

bible clearly teaches and they avoid flights of fancy

empty imagination or i

think what's important to again in react

ways of danger that we will end the

right to say that as

these

minutes

i would i would

want quick i think

i'd be

very slow to to make

dissipate.

Um

the mary or joe

times in

particular by no means deny

that that god is powerful than one of the means is

through sending out these ministering

angels

the bible.

What you don't know.

I'm

just sorry

joe that there's not more than angels for you in the book.

Well joe knows he's already getting the book uh.

And by the way i have another book to recommend uh and i actually had the privilege of

writing the forward to it back in the 1990s uh.

Angels and demons agent of god agents of god and satan a biblical study

by victor knolls.

Victor is not a calvinist or at least he was not when he wrote the book uh way

back in the 90s.

But it's an excellent book because it's thoroughly biblical just as you were saying.

Uh pastor jeremy we have to make sure we keep to the biblical record in regard to subjects like this because

there's many fancy full and imaginative and superstitious and heretical and idolatrous

understandings of angels uh and also superstitious understanding standings of

demons that exist and abound.

But this is an excellent book.

I don't know if it's still in print but you could get it on amazon uh at least a used copy uh.

Angels and demons agents of god and satan a biblical study by victor knolls.

Um well let me go to uh.

Your uh.

Your book itself uh what do you mean in the book by looking to jesus

the type of the first chapter

and that really

yes that is look

to me and be saved all you ends of the earth for i am

in that context means that taking our eyes off

a term you might look to for salvation

and casting ourselves upon him to deliver

us from us.

Yes.

And uh i'm sure you would agree that.

Looking to jesus isn't some sentimental thing where

we uh just gaze uh up to the heavens and have some kind of an imaginative

relationship with him and uh have conversations with him

like in the very popular hymn of walking and talking with him in the garden alone.

Uh but uh this there is much more uh involved in this looking to jesus

if you like with eyes of

faith

again it's about the this

language of looking to talks about or

the justification

that brings life to christ for refuge

leaning on

sentimental

thrill if you

like or

mystical.

Yeah i mean that there is something that is you

know that there is something that

is i can put it right.

Yeah that would have a better way for me

to put it.

I'm sorry.

Yeah it's this is a salvation.

We have rj in white plains new york who says some people are very

fearful of the term discipleship because they harken back in the

minds of many to abuses in cults.

And there was actually a movement here in america perhaps in the uk as well called the

discipleship movement.

That was a very abusive way of church leaders that were in reality cult leaders

examining the lives of the congregants with a fine -tooth comb and

having them confess their deepest darkest sins on a regular basis to the leaders and life

became a living hell for these people.

And it was really uh bordering on if not crossing the the line into works righteousness.

Can you give a distinguishing comment that contrasts this kind of discipleship

and what.

You are talking about.

Yeah that's.

That's a good question i've not had any personal exposure to um

but to me like

that is making disciples of men rather than disciples of i.

I understand what was the what was the gentleman's name.

That was rj in white plains new york.

Yeah um i think uh rj is right and it's

a typical danger.

I mean satan loves to take good words and good notions.

Terrible flawed ugly me see

eight that kind of ill

godly freight.

This a

very sweet and delightful idea

and i will give you rest and learn of me.

My yoke is he is light with those

who they make

heresies they they love to make their own disciples and they made them

um then now i don't know

without without understanding that better but i i would simply say to rj

uh that we've discipleship from the

scriptures in their relation to christ.

Be very careful as as he as he not to then

bring in these um a a

man -centered discipleship.

Christ says look to me and follow me.

Rj is describing is really men who are in effect saying you look at me you follow me

and i i will have you under my control.

And i that is a manipulative rather than the kind of discipleship which christ

calls us which is one in which he he draws out our hearts after him

to desire that which is well.

Thank you rj.

You have won a free copy of the book.

We are discussing life in christ by our guest jeremy walker.

Please make sure you give us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com can ship that out to you.

And we thank our friends at reformation heritage books once again for providing these copies of

jeremy's book.

We have.

Let's see here.

We have christopher in

amityville long island new york and christopher says that's where i was born and raised.

Christopher says.

I am aware of churches that prolong the baptism of those

who come to faith in christ because they will say that the great commission which g

in which jesus says go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of

the father and the son and the holy ghost.

Since disciples or making disciples precedes baptizing them

they will think that a person has to come to some deeper knowledge of

theology and of jesus before they are given the privilege of baptism

rather than just baptizing them upon the simple embracing of christ as their only way of

salvation.

Do you agree with this prolonged period that many are forced

to go through before being baptized or.

Do you think this is being taken way

too far.

The area errors

where christ comes as the one to whom all authority

says go therefore calls of

all the nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the

son and of the commanded you and

behold i am with you always even to the end of the age.

So the first is the making of the second

is baptized on the

one hand and

i think that's christ disciples of all the nations

i've commanded you and when you've done that you can baptize them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy

spirit.

And in that respect i think christopher's right to say that is a

recognition on

made disciples and

then commanded that disciples should

be and do understand that the lord said go and make

disciples of all the nations.

And it's disciples that you baptize.

It's someone who follows after the lord jesus christ.

And while we don't expect to be

able to of

life in

christ and one

of the

things that i

try and deal with in the book is having been united to christ in

order what does this life actually look

like.

And it's a and

of

course we

do have

examples

in the bible of people being

baptized immediately uh when they came to faith like the jailer and so on

um and i think there are okay

um we are not living in the apostolic

age in mind often

in the

mark of their identification with jesus christ and his death and resurrection.

There they are nailing their colors to the that's an old naval phrase um

that the ship's colors identified them as belonging to a certain nation

and they would normally be run up and down.

Captain might say we we cannot strike

our colors.

We we are those days whatever it would

have been now that's

that is in some measure what baptism.

And a declaration away and that the

life that is in him is now in us as well now in the new testament

has someone to put their hand up and say i want to be baptized was in many instances not far signing

their own death

warrant.

Now in our context

left right.

In that context i think that we

that demonstrate yeah so

what you're saying is that there's a there's a there's a vast difference.

Between someone's faith being uh revealed

clearly as authentic of course nobody infallibly knows this but where you

have more evidence to believe someone because they are actually risking their lives to be baptized like even many

today in muslim countries would be.

But there's a difference between that and somebody who raises their hand and goes forward to be

baptized with the same enthusiasm as they would be waiting on the line at the

motor vehicle department.

And they're really just doing it because their wife or parent or whoever

wanted them to do it and go back i think.

Even at a

time

when

god was

um in christ

only is

the only savior for

christ.

Off to come.

I would find this

quite in

earthiness

and depend of grace

god from idols

to serve from heaven.

That's the evidence of discipleship when someone is doing that amen.

We only have time for a very quick.

Answer to this arnie and perry county wants to know.

Can you please reassure your listeners that.

By commanding discipleship god was not requiring

sinless

perfectionism.

And again

already.

Well i.

Want to make sure that our listeners are reminded about your website for maiden bower baptist church

in england.

It's m a b a c h dot org m a b a c h dot org.

I hope that anyone nearby crawley in west sussex england

will visit you or if they are not near you that they will visit you any time any way on vacation or

any other reason that they might have to be in there there's any time.

Chris everybody is welcome.

Great.

And of course uh the book that we are discussing life and christ is available from heritagebooks

.org heritagebooks .org and you can also get it from cvbbs .com

cvbbs .com and uh that's uh our sponsor one of our sponsors so we would actually prefer

you get it through cvbbs .com because it doesn't hurt reformation heritage books at all if you purchase from cvbbs

.com.

I want to thank you so much pastor jeremy.

I look forward to your return to our program.

I want to thank everybody who listened and i hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus

christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to receiving your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.