February 27, 2019 Show with Ken Golden on “Entering God’s Rest: The Sabbath From Genesis to Revelation (& What it Means For You)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 27th day

of February 2019 and my friends over at the Alliance

of Confessing Evangelicals urged me to interview someone that they believe is going to be

a great blessing to you today and I take very seriously the recommendations of the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals because I am extremely pleased with everything that I

know about them and the events that they promote and the speakers and authors that they promote

and that they publish, one of whom is my guest today for the very first time ever.

His name is Ken Golden, organizing pastor at Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church

in Davenport, Iowa and the author of Presbytopia, What it Means to be

Presbyterian.

Today we're going to be addressing another book of his published by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals,

Entering God's Rest, the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation and What it Means for You

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,.

Pastor Ken Golden.

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the opportunity.

And we appreciate the opportunity to.

Have you here today with us and please before we go into the topic at hand, why don't you tell our listeners

something about Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Davenport,.

Iowa.

Sure, we're a mission work of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

We've been at it for a while.

I picked up the work back in 2011, full

-time church planner.

The previous one was, he was living out of the area, changing

direction there.

His denomination was plugging away ever since, trying to reach this

community, not only for the gospel, formed in Presbyterian Church in the.

Cities where there is none.

Yes, and the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with it, this

is a denomination that arose, I should say, during the

fundamentalist modernist controversy in the earlier part of the 20th century when

liberals were gaining horrifying control over

churches and establishments and seminaries and universities that had long been known for

their biblical soundness, and denominations were splitting and congregations were splitting,

and a great hero of the Christian faith, J. Gresham Machen, knew that

he was at great odds with this modernist movement.

In fact,.

He was excommunicated, wasn't he?

Yeah, I'm not sure what term they used back then.

I know he was deposed from ministry, and it

was the Bible -believing foreign

mission that the

social gospel was more important, and Machen and his colleagues

were appalled by that and set up their own independent mission board, and that did not fly well

with the denomination, and that was the beginning of the end for a number of those

men who were seeking to believe the gospel.

Yeah, wasn't the liberal missionary Pearl Buck at the center of this?

Yes, yes, she was in China, and she's a famous novelist.

Most people don't realize that she was a missionary as well, and that she did not believe that the Bible

is the Word of God, she believed that it was the Word of men.

That was certainly not in keeping with the Hesopotamian

tradition, or any Christian tradition, and his colleagues felt

compelled to give an alternative and send missionaries

out who were faithful missionaries to God.

Well, now let me hear something about your book, not the one.

We're discussing today, but the one with the funny name, Presbytopia, what it means to be

Presbyterian.

Are you making the claim that being Presbyterian brings you in some sort of utopia?

Certainly not, it's

actually from

Presbys.

Really, so it's

a real word, or you coined it?

I believe that I coined it, although some people don't like it because it sounds too much

like Presbyopia,.

Which means old eyes.

Well, perhaps at some point we can have you on to discuss that book, but before

we have you begin our discussion on Entering God's Rest, the Sabbath from

Genesis to Revelation, and what it means for you, whenever I have, or at least most often, when I have

a first -time guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I have them give a summary of their

salvation testimony, what kind of religious atmosphere my guests were raised in,

if any, and what providential circumstances rose up in their lives that the Lord used to

draw them to himself and save them,.

So I'll have you give that same story yourself.

Well, thanks for that opportunity.

I'm a Jewish convert.

I was raised in a form of Judaism called conservative Judaism,

involved in fairly traditional worships,

I believe, of the Old Testament.

It would be parallel to a lot of mainline Christian churches.

So I was raised in that.

My father was an immigrant from Poland, and he grew up in an Orthodox family,

and when he came over he was really not all that interested in any kind of personal

or any kind of formal relationship, and he threw off the shackles,

form of Judaism, but he embraced Israel, and he still wanted to raise his

children, many

Jewish children, and I learned enough to be able to do my

bar mitzvah, to read from a selection of the Old Testament.

And I had to read it in the Hebrew, and I didn't learn what the words meant.

It was oration, or speaking of the Hebrew words, and

it was a big show.

And after I did that, because I really wasn't all that interested

in that experience in Hebrew school, I really made

a silent vow to myself that I was never going to look at another Hebrew character again.

And I was done, pretty much, with any kind of,

you know, trying to

figure out my place at Indiana University.

And while I was painting, I was trying to find myself looking for deeper meaning.

By the way, I'm an art major myself.

Really?

Yes.

Really.

Now that sounds like I should be interviewing you then.

No, it would be a lot less interesting, believe me.

I studied art for four years in Indiana, and I met my future wife there in my senior

year, and I ended up moving back to New York from New Jersey.

I ended up moving back to New York to study at Pratt Institute in a master's program,

and I was really wanting to give the New York City arts scene a shot.

I did so, completed my program, and I had a show in 1994 in the East Village.

Wow.

And I thought my career was taking off, but it really just

happened.

The gallery I showed

at closed.

Most of all, I had an experience in

1996 that challenged what I wanted to do the rest of my life,

faith in Jesus Christ.

My mother -in -law, brother -in -law, and really my whole wife's family were Roman Catholic,

and they left the Catholic Church in 1996 and started attending a Protestant church, part

of a church.

And I really had no interest in becoming a Christian, but I did

have an interest in understanding the faith that my wife has brought up together.

So I was willing to study the Bible, and so was she.

And we had our opportunity, when we went to a local congregation of this,

they wanted me to just start reading the New Testament.

I really never had any interest in it.

Once I picked up the New International Version that they gave me, and started reading the Gospel,

I discovered that it was actually interesting.

It wasn't King James, so there weren't any begats or anything like that, but it actually was interesting

for the first time.

And not only interesting, but there was a character in it that interested my interest.

Jews don't...

The honest ones, the Orthodox at times, will call him

a false teacher.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

You can't lead people astray.

You want to be polite.

Well, we didn't talk about him.

He was a taboo topic.

I didn't know what to do with this character, Jesus, but I found myself being drawn to him.

As I was reading through Matthew, and then Mark, and then other books, I found myself cheering for him,

because he wasn't like anything that I had expected.

He wasn't a moralist.

He wasn't trying to clean up everybody's act.

He was actually having meals with the riffraff.

He was inviting people, the dregs of society even, to his table, and he

was embracing them.

But he was loving them.

He was loving them where they were, which was very different than anything I'd ever imagined about

him.

Calling out all of the religious leaders, the ones

who were trying to look, seeking man's approval.

But I didn't want to believe it, because how could I?

I'm a Jew.

Well, as I kept reading and reading, I am more and more, until

he gets arrested and he up and dies.

Now, I have looked at plenty of altarpieces, studying art, and I knew about the crucifixion

scenes, and I knew that he was going to die, but when I read it for myself, after investing all of this

emotional energy, Jesus, I was heartbroken.

I was truly sad when I read that.

I thought, how unfair.

He didn't do anything.

But then, to my surprise, he rose again from the dead, and I thought,

this is so different.

What do I make of it?

Well, the group I was studying with, that they

did with people they were recruiting, and I wasn't moving fast, so they

called in the big guns.

They called in a Jewish convert from Brooklyn, and he started studying with me, and he

encouraged me to read the Old Testament, starting in Genesis.

And I was willing to do that.

I started reading in Genesis, and it was a breeze.

And then I got to Exodus, and Exodus, the first half,

very interesting, it was to read

that and understand it.

And then I got to Leviticus, and Leviticus recalled memories of being

in synagogue, especially on the high holy days, when we did go to synagogue.

And I remember sitting in the synagogue as a child, not understanding a word, that the cantor,

the singer, I remember being bored out of my mind.

I remember my parents being irritable.

But here I am, as a 30 -year -old,

reading Leviticus for the first time, plodding through the early chapters on the sacrifices and the purity laws.

And then I come to chapter 16, the Day of Atonement, or in Hebrew,

Yom Kippur.

And I thought, here we go again.

Do I really want to read this?

But I did.

And as I was reading it, God does something unusual and

remarkable.

He used the book of Leviticus to convert me.

Wow.

As I was reading, yes, probably the first person you've ever heard say that.

As I was reading chapter 16, I saw the two goats.

And the first goat was sacrificed, and the second goat, Aaron, priest,

upon that goat, and God's

people on that goat.

And then, in reading those, I put two

and two together.

Two goats equaled Jesus.

I could see for the first time spiritually, and I believed, and I knew.

What I did next, what

to do next.

The church we were

studying, I was

happy, one bit.

But they didn't disown me.

And we didn't end up joining that church.

We ended up joining an evangelical church.

We stayed there a while.

But while I was there, I was introduced.

It got me part of

the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

It was their magazine back then.

Yeah.

Didn't Mike Horton have something to do with that?

He did.

And ironically, I went to Promise Keepers in 1997, which was something that

many Christian men did back in the 90s.

And after Promise Keepers, my friend, who is my Reformed mentor,

he suggested we go to a conference on Reformed theology.

What is that?

So we went to a local United Reformed church in northern New Jersey, and the speaker of all

people was this Dr. Michael Scott Horton.

Never heard of the guy.

Never heard of the guy.

And he was very interesting, but I really didn't know what to make of it.

And the issue that was on display that month had to do with a sacrament.

And I didn't even like the sound of that word.

It sounded so Roman Catholic, or I guess, you know,

using that dichotomy between religious and spirituality, which I don't believe anymore.

And I read the articles in there, and they rubbed me the wrong way.

I couldn't put it down, because I had all of these questions.

The whole

church, gradually, I began more and more to

gravitate toward a Reformed church in New

Jersey.

Over the years, I felt myself being called into the ministry.

And I had made a decent career.

The abilities that I had to the ministry,

Mary in California,

and study with Michael Scott Horton and some of the other people that I had read,

quitting our job, the one job that we had at that time, going from one income to zero income,

fill a state market back in 2001,

California, from New Jersey.

And I graduated three years later, and I found myself

around my

second call now.

This is a church plant in the Quad Cities.

Most people have never heard of the Quad Cities.

But it's an area that is, there's quite a few Bible believing churches, and many of them are good churches, but there's no

Reformed

America.

By the way, just out of curiosity, do you know, I very rarely hear the answer no to this

when I'm speaking to an Orthodox Presbyterian, but one of my dearest friends, going back to the

1980s, is Bill Shishko.

Do you know Bill?

I've met Bill, yeah.

He's the pastor, or was the pastor at Franklin Square.

That's right.

Now he runs Reformation Metro New York, which is a parachurch

ministry under the oversight of the Orthodox Presbyterian Presbytery out

there in that area.

And in fact, Bill is a client of mine, and I am the one that sold him his airtime for

his radio program, Visit to the.

How fabulous.

Yeah, he's very gifted, and ironically, this is a really obscure story, but one of

his parishioners, who is somewhat of an expert on Van Til, a man by the name of.

Eric Sigward...

Oh yeah, I've met Eric many, many times for many, many years.

Eric is a key...

I hope he's listening, because he probably doesn't remember me, but when I was at

the Evangelical Church, my friend, who was a

merchant, and he had a queen, she got to know Eric, and he would

invite Eric to our church and have Eric teach.

It was really all of these

broad Evangelical folks being taught by Eric, who was fairly intellectual and sometimes

spoke over their heads.

But one of the things that I'll never forget is that Eric would bring copies of Louis

Burkhoff, and he would talk about reform

things, and it was a little weird.

I'm sorry, I interrupted you with my laughter.

Oh, I appreciate the laughter.

I was eating

it up, and all of those were there for me

in the.

Early years.

In fact, my landlord is a retired Orthodox Presbyterian

minister, Al Stever, he's a graduate of Westminster Theological Seminary.

He, in fact, went to a 50th anniversary of all those

who graduated in his class about a year or two ago, and good friends with a

lot of folks in the OPC.

Jason Wallace, if you ever want somebody to speak on Mormonism at your church, Jason Wallace is a

thoroughly knowledgeable expert, pastors a church in the Salt Lake City, Utah area, and Magna, Utah to be

specific.

And Lowell Ivey, fascinating guy in Virginia, Orthodox Presbyterian pastor,

who was a white supremacist gang member in prison before he got saved and

became an Orthodox Presbyterian and is now pastoring in Virginia.

I mean, I know a lot of folks, so I always feel at ease when I'm interviewing somebody from

your denomination.

That's true.

I've met Jason before at General Assembly.

I've never met Lowell, but that's an amazing story.

I didn't know that about him.

In fact, this reminds me to ask for prayer from my listening audience, something that I

failed to do before today.

Please pray for the local Orthodox Presbyterian pastor here in Carlisle,

Pennsylvania, Jody Morris.

His wife unexpectedly and tragically died just about a week or so

ago, maybe two weeks ago, at the age of 42.

And that obviously has been a great tragedy, not only to Jody

and his two sons, but also for that congregation.

So please pray for Pastor Jody Morris.

He was married 25 years, even though his wife is only 42 years old.

She got married when she was 17, and that must be a very difficult time that he's

going through.

I know personally the tragedy of losing a wife.

I lost my wife, as many of my listeners know, back in 2011.

She is now in eternity with Christ after nearly 20 years of marriage.

But please pray for Jody Morris of the Redeemer Orthodox

Presbyterian Church, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I'm sorry, I just wanted to throw that in there.

I'm glad you mentioned that, actually, because Jody was the first person that I thought of when you mentioned Mormonism.

Jody and I were classmates at seminary, and...

That's right, he's a former Mormon.

Former Mormon, that's correct.

And I think the world of him, and I remember having a lunch when I was in seminary

with him and Belinda, and Jody's an outstanding guy, and he's really smart,

and I'm assuming you know him well, living in Carlisle.

He's a good man, and we've been praying for him and his family.

So, Jody, if you're listening, I just want you to know that we've been praying for you for a

couple weeks.

Well, I'm sure he appreciates that enormously.

And, well, we are now going to be entering into our...

By the way, did you finish your discussion on your testimony?

I don't want to cut you short there, because it was utterly fascinating.

In fact, I already know I want to have you back specifically to address

more about your Jewish heritage and the

interesting phenomenon of the majority of Jewish believers

rejecting Reformed theology.

And one of the aspects of that that utterly baffles me is how Jewish people

fully recognize and embrace the fact, without hesitation, that God

chose the Jewish people not because of anything they

believed or did, or because of their specialness, their unique beauty, or

anything like that.

He elected them.

He chose them out from among the pagan nations.

And yet, when Jews come to faith in Christ, that concept of unconditional

election, of election not based on anything intrinsic to the ones being

elected, they seem to be not only ignoring that,

avoiding that, but sometimes even being vehemently opposed to that notion.

Not all, of course.

We have some exceptions, like yourself and some other brothers in Christ I know who are Reformed theologically,

but it is an interesting phenomenon,.

Isn't it?

It's a phenomenon, and I'm certainly no expert on, even though I was

raised Jewish, and I know certainly a little bit about the different streams of

Judaism and Messianic believers.

I attend my church, and I even had coffee one day with a local

Lubavitch rabbi.

Hard to believe there's a rabbi here in the Quad City,

and I'd

be happy to come back and talk about whatever I know.

The last thing I would

say with this is that my silent vow that I made on

my bar mitzvah, the dust off

of my feet.

And lo and behold, my first

year in seminary, Hebrew 101, and I'm thinking,

what am I getting myself into?

But I actually enjoyed it, and I still work, and

I really enjoy the Hebrew.

It's the language itself.

He sure does.

By the way, I want to clarify for our listeners who may not have understood what I was talking about in regard to Jewish

believers in Christ who reject unconditional election.

I'm speaking of unconditional election in the salvific sense, not in the

natural sense where the nation of Israel was chosen amongst all of the Gentile nations

as God's own people.

I'm speaking of eternal election, election unto eternal life, and so on,

that many, if not most, Jewish believers, Messianic believers are opposed to.

So they believe in the one aspect of the chosen people of the Old Testament who are

chosen not for anything they believed or did, and yet they reject a spiritual or

salvific election that we who are Reformed believe and very

enthusiastically declare and teach and preach.

But we are going into our first advertising break right now before we enter

into entering God's rest, which is the subject of our program today, the main

subject, entering God's rest, the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, and what it means for you.

Very controversial theme because it is something that divides brothers and sisters in the

body of Christ.

Not all Christians have the same understanding or acceptance of a new covenant

Sabbath day, and even those that do don't always agree on what that means.

And even amongst theologically Reformed Christians, there is disagreement on the Sabbath.

So this should be a very interesting conversation, especially, I think it even has some unique meaning,

knowing that my guest is formerly, or he's still Jewish, but formerly a part

of the conservative Jewish sect amongst or within Judaism.

So it should be interesting, even more so because of that.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R

-I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

So don't go away, we'll be right back with Ken Golden and entering God's rest right after these

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Ken Golden of Sovereign Grace Orthodox

Presbyterian Church in Davenport, Iowa.

We are discussing his book, Entering God's Rest, The Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation and What It Means

for You, published by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i

-s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Ken, as you may know, there are many books written on the

Sabbath.

In fact, one of the of the church where I'm a member, he was a pastor there for 40 years,

Walter Chantry, he wrote a book that seems to have been very popular for many years

called The Sabbath, A Delight, and there have been many others.

Why did you believe that there was an additional volume.

Needed to bless the body of Christ in regard to the Sabbath?

Well, I think some of that is

mystery and fiction and observance.

They don't just add to these things, but

I guess the short answer is that, and you said it

earlier yourself, Chris, that Sabbath observance,

even in the Reformed tradition, one of the things that I mentioned in the book

early on as I quote a book by Dick Gavin that he wrote about Calvin and

the Sabbath and these types of people who

view the Sabbath, some he would call

dominical, that

it was completely fulfilled in Christ and that the Lord's day has no connection to the Sabbath

whatsoever, that it's an ecclesiastical, and some of the Reformers even fell

into this category to some degree.

Would they have been the Continental Reformers, perhaps?

Yes, yes, that would be Luther and Calvin, even though in practice,

what they, especially Calvin and Geneva,

closing on being Church, it

was done for,

and we rent

continuity

when it comes to being

the Sabbath.

And there are even Seventh -day Baptists.

In fact,.

I had a debate on the old Iron Shepherds Iron Radio program between Reformed Baptist theologian

Sam Waldron and a Reformed Baptist pastor on the day of

the Sabbath, and in fact, it was interesting because even the Seventh -day Baptist pastor

involved in this debate.

Was a Calvinist, a five -point Calvinist.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, and I think there's a lot of Messianic Jews as well who would want to

worship on Saturday rather than Sunday.

There certainly are some arguments that they make from Scripture

to the Dominical folks.

And then there are the Puritan, Presbyterian side of our tradition,

often in the Westminster Shall, for lack of a better word,

which is very, in many respects, similar to the approach of the Seventh

-day Sabbatarian's extransfer

from the Seventh -day to the Day of the Week.

There is certainly discontinuity as well, and I don't mean to be oversimplistic at all, and I

try to.

Some of those details in the book, it's a

very strong continuity view of the main areas of

discontinuity would be the day of ceremonial

aspects of the Sabbath that you find in the Old Testament like

that.

You have different views and primarily

arguments.

Again, I do address in the

Sabbath Territories

as well of

the Presbyterian Church,

but he does also

implement the

way that we

use the language that

we have on the

opinions in the OPC on this issue.

How do we get along

with many?

And that's one of the reasons for

the gap, clearly not a model.

So if you could now, and obviously it would take a week's worth.

Of programs to have you be very detailed about this, but if you could

describe in as much of a summary as you can your view that you

think is most biblically faithful, starting off with what the Sabbath was

in the Old Covenant.

Obviously, it's not even something that began with the Decalogue, it's a creation ordinance,

but how that Sabbath day, that Sabbath command,

was transferred over to a New Covenant and what changes occurred and what

things were retained.

In a New Covenant Sabbath.

Sure, sure, and I've got nine chapters and a couple of

appendices where I tackle the majority, if not all, of the

pertinent biblical texts.

The book is primarily exegetical.

I'm not quoting Puritan theologians and this and that, I'm trying

to stick to the primary standard as much as I can in this book.

I'll just read something very briefly which gives us a bit of a framework.

On page two in the introduction, tumbling across,

it appears in Genesis, develops in Exodus, multiplies in Leviticus, deepens in Isaiah.

In the New Testament, Jesus clarifies it in the Gospel, appears to abandon it in

the Epistles.

Sabbath references span the periods of creation, Sinai, monarchy, exile, and New

Testament.

It receives lots of attention in the Old Covenant and lots of reflection in the New

Covenant.

The questions that arise from this is, what continues and what doesn't?

And how do these continuities and discontinuities relate to time and observance

and Sabbath in the New Testament Lord's Day?

Now, our confessions, you know, answer that last

Sabbath, and certainly I agree with that language, but I also unpack that

language, because I quote

Meredith

Klein

in my

book, but he

was certainly somebody that I read that I was very intrigued about in

thinking in terms of Sabbath as enthronement.

God creates the heavens and the earth, and then he is enthroned, which means he becomes an

object of worship.

It's a very ancient Near

Eastern, and to enter God's rest.

That's a language that's closer to God's rest.

Well, what does that mean?

Man gets tired, man needs rest, but if God is enthroned over his

creation and remained in his image, then there's a...

But also we have here, I mean, there's

a lot of space,

but in a nutshell, what we're talking about here

is eternal life.

There's times, the sign of the

covenant of Sinai as a picture of eternal life that man is to

enter varies.

In the beginning, before sin entered the world, he entered by

the Garden of Eden,

the glory of God,

the connection between the

second Adam and life.

We don't enter God's rest anymore based on our works.

We enter God's rest.

On the other side, what

does it mean to

enter God's rest?

Keeping the act of obedience and the perfect sacrifice, the path of obedience.

Of our Savior, Jesus.

And when we come back, I want you to give...this is going to be difficult, probably,

but if you could give a summary of why you believe a

Christian should be honoring the Sabbath on the first day of the week, also sometimes

called the eighth day of the week, rather than the seventh day.

And in fact, if anybody wanted more information about that, you can email me at

chrisarnson at gmail .com because I do have a recording of a debate

that I think was at least two days long.

When I say two days, two episodes of Iron Sharpens Iron, not 48 hours, but between

Samuel Waldron and a Seventh -day Baptist that I mentioned earlier.

But we'll have, when we come back, at least an abbreviated version of the answer to that question.

This is our elongated break.

The midway break on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is longer than most because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who

airs this show in Florida, requires a period during the show where they can

localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements

and commercials.

So while they're airing their commercials, we're airing our global commercials, our national commercials.

And so please take this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers because the more

successfully and the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers,

which means the more likely we will remain on the air because we rely upon our advertising

dollars to exist.

But also write down questions for Ken Golden on the Sabbath, even if you have a

question that involves his Jewish heritage, you can ask that as well, or any

general question on Reform Theology.

But especially if you have a question on the Sabbath, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your

country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and

private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back.

Hello, my name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

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Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor?

Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org.

That's.

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God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron.

Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley

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Also, please consider something very seriously.

Our friends who publish the New American Standard Bible, also known as the NASB,

they have renewed their advertising sponsorship with Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

They've been a very faithful supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio ever since we first went on the air

in 2005.

And even before that, going back to the early 1990s, they were sponsoring

events that I had orchestrated, including public -moderated theological

debates.

They were every year for over a decade, even until the present day.

They were and are sponsoring events such as this.

And they're even sponsoring the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Spring Pastors Luncheon

this May 23rd, God willing, here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. Tony Costa,

Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

But because of the fact that the NASB publishers are so important to me

and so important to the existence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I want you to seriously consider something if you are a pastor,

a deacon, or someone in your congregation where you are

given or trusted with decision -making powers,

authorities, to make such a decision like replacing the Bibles that

are in your pews in the congregation where you serve.

There are many churches out there where your pew Bibles are falling apart.

They are filled with children's graffiti, perhaps.

Pages are falling out.

Perhaps even the version of the Bible that is in your pews is not

one that you currently favor.

Perhaps you don't want to use that translation anymore and you prefer using the NASB.

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And please always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of Iron Chirp and Zion Radio.

That's nasbible .com.

We also have a few events coming up that we need to tell you about.

The first event is coming up very soon.

We have the Striving for Eternity Ministries Conference on

Sanctification through Suffering.

That's going to be held March 15th through the 16th at the Chinese American Bible Church in Freehold,

New Jersey.

This is not going to be conducted in the Chinese, in a Chinese language.

It's going to be in English, but they are just renting the facility there at the Chinese American Bible Church, March

15th through the 16th.

And they have some very impressive speakers.

Justin Peters, who I absolutely love, Justin Peters and his ministry.

He's become a friend, and I love to have him on this program.

He is a victim of cerebral palsy, which he has had for

nearly the entirety of his life, and he is going to be on to speak on suffering.

Frank Mullis, Joe Suozo, and someone that we just had on the show

yesterday, Colleen Sharp, they will all be speaking at this conference.

For more details, go to strivingforeternity .org, strivingforeternity .org.

Then the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference is coming up after that, May

28th through the 30th.

I will be there in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College.

They've got Jeff Kingswood on the roster, Terry Johnson, David

Vaughn, who is a Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Steve Nichols, who is the president of

Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Michael Morales, and

Chad Vegas.

That's the East Coast Ministers Conference for the Banner of Truth, May 28th through May 30th

in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

The theme is, I believe in the Holy Spirit.

I think that's a very important theme, especially perhaps for Reformed Christians to be

focusing on, since I believe, as a Reformed Christian myself, we have the most biblically faithful understanding

of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

So I hope that you and as many other folks that you know of can attend the Banner of

Truth East Coast Ministers Conference.

May 28th through the 30th.

Go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org, click on events, then click on East Coast

Ministers Conference.

There are also other conferences that they are conducting that may be

closer to you because we have listeners all over the world.

There's conferences in the UK, there's conferences on the west coast of the United States, and we have listeners in

both of those places and all over the world.

So you can click on whatever conference is close to you.

I happen to be going, obviously, to the Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania conference since I live here in Pennsylvania.

That's banneroftruth .org, click on events, and then click on East Coast Ministers Conference or whatever conference is

closest to you.

We are also promoting the Foundations Conference, which is a conference

being held by the folks at Sermon Audio.

And I love this conference.

It's being held in New York City, December 19th and the 20th.

For some reason, oh, thankfully, their website just started working again before

the website was down temporarily.

But if you go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com, and make sure you put the in there, thefoundationsconference .com, you will have all the

information that you need on this conference, December 19th and the 20th in New York City.

Just to give you some of the folks that are speaking there, Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard

moments ago advertising one of my sponsors, New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan.

Stephen J. Lawson of One Passion Ministries is going to be speaking there.

Pastor Jeff Thomas, who has been for many years, many decades, a favorite

conference speaker of Reformed Baptists and Orthodox Presbyterians and pretty much everybody within

the pale of Reformed theology.

Jeff Thomas is a phenomenal preacher and teacher and writer and brother in Christ.

You will fall in love with Jeff Thomas if you don't already know him.

He is just a phenomenal brother and a phenomenal speaker.

Richard Caldwell Jr., who I do not yet know.

Rev. Armon Tomassian is a powerful preacher.

Mark my words, Armon Tomassian is going to become a very prominent figure in Reformed

preaching in the United States, if not globally.

I first discovered him about two years ago at the Foundations Conference in Manhattan at a

previous event that they had, and he is just mind -blowing and such a blessing.

Rev. Armon Tomassian and also Andrew Quigley, another brother that I do not know, but I am looking forward to getting to know him

and hearing him preach.

It is December 19th and the 20th in New York City.

For more information, go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com,

and God willing, I will see you there.

Please tell them if you register that you heard about them from Chris Aronson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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We are now back with Ken Golden, Pastor Ken Golden, and we are discussing his book

on the Sabbath as we have been mentioning already during this program, Entering God's

Rest, The Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation and What It Means for You.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And Ken, before we go to any listener question, if you could, in as much of a summary as

you can explain, because I'm sure that a lot of people are wondering, how could it be

that Saturday for thousands of years was

a vital day for God's people in the old covenant?

And many people viewed that as an eternal day of rest.

And then we enter into a new covenant.

And all of a sudden, the day changes from Saturday to.

Sunday.

How could this be?

Why did that happen?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And I would start with the question of faith

gives us a valuable, creating confession that

we hold to as Presbyterians.

It talks about interpreting the Bible through, at times, through good and

necessary consequence, which means that you're not going to find one -stop -shopping proof

text for everything you believe.

Sometimes you're going to, and I

think we find that good and

necessary conflict starts and

occurs on the seventh day.

And that seventh -day Sabbath in

Exodus 20 to creation.

So it shows that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance and that the seventh day is to be set apart for

this purpose.

So how do we come to the Lord's day on Sunday?

Are the seventh day Sabbatarians right?

Well, I would disagree with them for a number of reasons that I argue in the book.

First of all, we see the seeds of a variety of Sabbaths,

of Sabbath not being tied to one particular day.

And we see this as early as the book of Leviticus.

My chapter on Levitical Sabbaths discusses the number seven and eight.

And what we discover is that the original weekly Sabbath becomes

incorporated into a system of Sabbaths in the Old Covenant.

Our other days,

Unleavened Bread and Weeks and Booths, they have days that are to

not follow Sabbaths

of solemn rest.

And those days oftentimes occur as feasts.

So we see early on, even in the Old Covenant, seeds for something

beyond just a seventh -day Sabbath.

The Sabbath is not explicitly tied to the seventh -day

understanding.

When we get to the New Covenant, we find in

the life of our Savior Jesus Christ, and I do

have a whole chapter on already and not yet.

So when I say fulfill, I don't mean so that we have no

understanding whatsoever.

I'm saying that he fulfilled

enter God's rest of obedience.

Quite a bit of discussion in the Gospels

for man, not man, for the Sabbath, and a number of other

texts where he associates Sabbath healing with deliverance.

The Sabbath did not appeal to creation.

Rather, it appealed to redemption.

So redemption is another

Sabbath

theme.

When Jesus, going

into chapter 24, the

Sabbath, along with the women,

along with all of Israel, he's resting.

He completed the work of the week, which we

could call day one of the new creation.

The idea of

entering God's rest.

Rest on the seventh -day of the week.

We call it a guarantee that we will enter God's rest

because we are included.

Jesus is the firstfruits, according to 1 Corinthians 15.

We are the rest.

There's some theologies to find, but

then what about evidence?

Well, Jesus does appear to his earliest disciples on the first day of the week, not on the seventh

day.

And then what we see is a pattern in the New Testament regarding early

as Acts chapter 20, when they are gathered on the first day of

the week and they are

breaking.

The offerings are on the first

day of the week.

And then

we've discovered

John and what we find.

One of

the few places in the book where I go beyond scripture, because there's a lot of debate.

They use that

adjective

kuriake

to describe

Sunday, primarily because of the resurrection.

It's the day that Jesus enabled us to enter God's

rest.

New beginnings.

New beginnings of a

direction.

Well, we

have some

listener

questions.

We have, let's see, Susan Margaret.

In Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, how do you respond to those Christians who are

not Sabbatarian, who will quote from Colossians chapter two, verse

16, therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink, or in respect

to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

That's very, very important.

And this

continuity that we have

is language that we have from Galatians

four and from Colossians two.

So if we read

Colossians, almost all of the Old Testament,

aside from some of the moral commands, really have no application.

My answer would be, we have to conform, and this is the

dominical position very much would appeal

to, so that these days are obsolete.

I think that these days, clearly, we do clearly, as

I argue in this chapter,

that

variety,

there's going to be some differences.

Clearly, we don't want ourselves, that's one of the

themes that we have here in Colossians

two.

Sabbath itself is certainly, you know, in the old

ceremonial quality.

The Sabbath is

complex, because it combines all of these things.

But we don't want our Sabbath to look like an old covenant ceremonial

Sabbath.

Clearly, there's some discontinuity there, but that's, and

now we're getting at the correct even.

Would that text give.

Weight to the fact that the day of the Sabbath changed, which is why

there would be people, especially amongst the Jews, saying to these Jewish Christians,

why are you worshiping on Sunday?

Could that be an evidence that would lend support to a

change in the day?

I mean,.

We'd have to reconstruct the Colossian heresy and everything that was going on there.

There are other things going on in Colossians that are more than just

continuity of the old covenant.

I think, again, going back to what I said earlier, when you compare Scripture with Scripture, there's

clearly something that is happening in the early Church, and I

think our starting term and our ending point,

if we see the resurrection as something that is connected to eternal

life, and we connect the dots, going all the way to the end of the Sabbath, it's

connected this way as well.

And I think that's legitimate, because Hebrews clearly makes that connection.

So this is not just some theological construct that we're imposing on

the text.

If all of these differences only take Colossians to an isolation, well, of

course, we're going to end up as Dominical Christians.

We view the Sabbath as a creation ordinance, meaning that it continues until the

end, of seeing how

the Sabbath develops.

And I argue this in an already set

Sabbath,

and

the easiest

thing to do

when we're reading

the Bible is

it

becomes our starting point and our ending

point, and the Sabbath is a creation

ordinance, and that's

true in light of these things.

But we also have to read Texas 20 and other texts in the Old Testament in

light of Colossians, even if...

Well, thank you, Susan Margaret.

You have won a free copy of.

Entering God's Rest, the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation and What It Means for You.

Thanks to the generosity of our friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com can

ship that out to you.

We have, let's see here, we have C .J. in

Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and C .J. asks, How is your

Jewish family today in response to your coming to faith in Christ?

And my second part of the question is, do they find it interesting that you take more

seriously.

The Hebrew Scriptures than they do?

Well, I could give a long answer to that question.

Without getting too personal, I would say that, you know, there are all stripes

of Jewish people, just like there are all stripes of Christian people, and it's

possible and actual in today's world to be Jewish and to

consider oneself a Jew and be an atheist.

And I happen to know people like that.

Or even a Buddhist.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, there are Marxist -Leninists who are certainly communists in

the Kibbutzim in Israel.

So there's all kinds of views and beliefs, and I

think it really depends on who you're talking to, if you

identify with Judaism.

And when

one converts, probably familiar, maybe even experienced it

yourself, Chris, to being the overzealous convert.

And knowing that you have the cure for cancer, all you want to do is tell everybody at all times of the

day that you have the Gospel.

And that's not wise.

And nor is that ultimately loving, because even though we think it's loving,

we have to.

And some people don't want to hear it, because their heart is not ready to hear it.

And that's where prayer comes into play.

So I was a little bit reckless in my youth.

I burned some bridges with my

family, met some

of my other

siblings,

and let the game come to me.

Our relationships weren't as effective.

Thank

you, C .J.

Give us your full mailing address in Lindenhurst,.

Long Island, and you will also receive, as a gift from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, a free copy of Entering

God's Rest, The Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation and What It Means for You.

Keep your eye open in the mail for a shipment from cvbbs .com, who will be shipping that out to you.

And please, as I said, please make sure we have your full mailing address.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I am familiar with a theologically reformed

congregation in Israel, the name of which I will not mention, that worships on

Saturday.

Do you believe that it is acceptable for a reformed church, or any church for that matter, to

worship on Saturday if they keep Sunday as a Sabbath day of rest,

even if they're not gathered for their corporal worship on Sunday?

Well, I'm very

unique, and I think there's

various errors in

clearly, actively teaching

those things, trying to make disciples of those things, versus misunderstandings and confusion.

And I think there's also varying degrees of errors of misunderstanding Scripture.

To be perfectly honest with you, our book of church order in the OPC even admits that

there is no church under heaven that we

all teach as we come to different

conclusions, and it becomes an exercise in the health of the church, rather than the essence of

the church.

So I don't believe that I have cornered the market on truth as an Orthodox Presbyterian, but I do believe that our

system of doctrine is the best, and makes the most sense of what Scripture teaches us.

Those who do not worship,

should worship Wednesday, because Sunday is something else.

And I don't agree with those strategies.

I'm convinced that

Sunday, I

believe, is the

inherent

day that God...

Well, we're going to our final break.

And by the way, anonymous listener, if you off the air, of course, give me your full name and

full mailing address, you will receive a free copy of Entering God's Rest, the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, and what it means

for you.

Compliments of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and also compliments of CVBBS .com, we'll be shipping it out

to you.

We're going to a break now, our final break, and it's going to be a brief break.

So if you intend to ask a question, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away,.

We'll be right back up after these messages.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program,.

Visit us online at www .irbsseminary .org.

I'm Pastor Billy Linhard of Sovereign Grace.

Particular.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our last segment of our program today, featuring our guest, Ken Golden.

And we are discussing Entering God's Rest, the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, and what it means for you.

His latest book, published by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who asks, Since we do not have a detailed

blueprint in the New Covenant regarding prohibitions and liberties regarding a Sabbath day, as we

do in the Old Covenant, how do you respond to the judgmentalism that exists

amongst some Sabbatarians in regard to the way other Christians observe a Sabbath day

or a Lord's Day?

Yeah, that's the $60 ,000 question.

That's usually when people are interested in this subject, and certainly

some people, even some of my own members of my congregation, when they got the

book, the first thing they wanted to do was turn to the last chapter.

Because you've got, basically what I've done is I've tried to make a biblical theological case

that the Sabbath originated in creation, that it develops, that there is

continuity and discontinuity throughout the Scripture.

When the rubber hits the road, we need

to at least consider asking, what

shall we do?

And chapter 9, Sabbath wisdom,

the short answer is, we need to apply the principal

data when we keep the Sabbath.

So what I offer in that chapter, without giving you all of the answers, I

define wisdom, and then I apply wisdom to certain case studies, such

as the Sixth Commandment, and

it basically examines what I've

already talked about, and then I apply it to case studies

that we all run into.

One of them is, what do we do about food on Sunday?

Can we eat out at a restaurant, or do we have to eat at home and prepare?

The second one involves watching sports on television.

People are very fond of watching.

Final one is recreation.

A hard -line position and tell people exactly what people using this

principle of this

circumstances in our lives.

Try to be fair and show the pros and cons, the different points of view

that strict Sabbatarians have.

Come up with a framework

and

seeing what all.

That might not be the tidy answer that people are looking for, because a lot of people are looking for exactly

a list of do's and don'ts.

I don't think we want to go there, because that's exactly...

They did it mostly to keep God's law,

but once you start legislating things that the scriptures do not specifically

address, start binding consciences.

Jesus had a...

I can tell you this, Chris, and the

listening audience,

it's very easy to do.

I think rather than

harder to think, in my opinion, it's better to think in terms of

framing, apply

these principles...

Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the important contact information they need for

you and for this book.

First of all, the Sovereign Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Davenport, Iowa has a

website, sovgraceopc .org.

That's S -O -V as in victory, graceopc as in orthodoxpresbyterianchurch .org,

sovgraceopc .org.

And if you want to find out more about the book that we have been discussing and other

books published by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, you can go to

reformedresources .org, reformedresources .org,

and you can also go to cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com, the website of the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who carries this book and many other books

that you will definitely enjoy and be blessed by.

So I want to thank all of you who listened today.

I want to thank you, Brother Ken Golden, for being our guest.

I look forward to your return.

In fact, if you could hang on the line there so I can give a proper goodbye to you off the air.

I want to thank everybody who especially wrote in questions today.

I want you to remember that tomorrow we have Audrey Werner coming back to the show

on her book on sex education.

Ten tips on how not to talk to your kids about sex.

That's Audrey Werner tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are

a sinner.