Leaked Roe, Cameron Bertuzzi and Isaiah 22

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May 3, 2022

Back in the regular studio for the first time in over a month! Wow, glad to be in the old digs again. Anyway, had to talk a bit about the leaked SCOTUS decision about Roe and the explosion of simple demonic activity all around us. Then we started reviewing some comments made by Cameron Bertuzzi related to Roman Catholicism and in particular the papacy. We eventually got to his comments on Isaiah 22, and finished focusing upon what it means to have peace with God.

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00:36: And greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. We're back here in Where we've been since 2006 actually
00:46: Yeah, right about 16 years now. We've Been in here didn't look like this to start.
00:51: We had a window back there and a prototype shelf in the corner that I'm really surprised did not just collapse during one of the programs at some point just as a fun of it but Yes, so now we we return for three months
01:12: Basically before we head up to Colorado Jason Lyle and I will be doing a
01:21: Seminar together up there in Colorado. We're really looking forward to that. Love Jason smartest man ever met and Just a wonderful brother and The the the most amazing combination of intelligence and humility that I've ever come across and so it's it's
01:42: It's great to spend time with Jason and going up to our old haunts there in Colorado a little bit of high -altitude riding
01:49: Just to hopefully clear their lungs out because I can certainly use it While we're up there.
01:55: Hope it's not man last year. It was it was the Smoky Mountains not the Rocky Mountains.
02:00: It was bad I mean you could just Cut the cut the air of the knife
02:06: Last year, hopefully it won't it won't be happening this time around as we are up there in August and then in September heading back to DC Museum of the
02:17: Bible G3 Hope you've got your your stuff ready to go And I'm not sure if I can actually announce the night really can't
02:26: Let's just say that right now the plans are you'll be doing something fun on the way back And I forgot to ask if I could announce it, but we'll
02:34: I'll be the smart one and not do that for right now Something cool on the way back.
02:40: It's gonna be a long trip It's looking at it'll definitely be the longest we were done distance wise probably close to 45 4600 miles
02:52: Maybe close to 5 ,000 was probably closer to 5 ,000 once I get done with it But time -wise
02:59: It's gonna be really difficult to bring that one in under five weeks Five weeks on the road.
03:04: That's a long time long long time But that's how we're doing it. And that means hopefully we'll be able to be
03:11: Visiting a few churches along the way when you've got a long distance to travel Sometimes you got to push some of those days don't like to but but there it goes.
03:20: That's that's how things go today, I want to start off with a couple of Book recommendations.
03:26: I normally don't do that But obviously it always works this way like two days after I left my box of ruler of Kings by Joseph boot came in.
03:39: It's a very nice picture Joe on the back and It's got my
03:46: Endorsement on the back as well as in the front actually and I was very glad that actually Inside you've got two endorsements mine says history now
03:54: I Don't think anyone from the Nevada Highway Patrol is listening right now, so I'm probably okay with this
04:02: But I wrote this while driving. Okay, this wasn't so you
04:07: I'm doing voice dictation But you know how voice dictation is you you've got to edit voice dictation
04:14: It's just gonna be so I did this while driving. That's pretty now. I was in middle of nowhere
04:19: The only if I got off the road you I think it would have killed would have been a stray lizard because they're just there's a reason why that they
04:27: Explode nuclear bombs out there Nothing there. I didn't wanna get too far off the road because I've seen some movies about the results of Exploding nuclear bombs and things like that.
04:37: So it's not good. Anyway, so I wrote this Using voice dictation quite some time ago now
04:44: History teaches us that enduring works of Christian insight flow forth from times of persecution and attack as secularism rushes toward its inevitable
04:52: Totalitarian solutions Christians need to think deeply concerning the issues that now confront us ruler of Kings reminds us that Christ scepter of power rules over all of life and that he will inevitably
05:03: Receive the inheritance of nations a must read in our day James our white apologist theologian and author director valve to make a ministries in Phoenix and I suppose
05:15: For the issue of transparency. I'm also a fellow of the Ezra Institute, which is what
05:20: Joe heads up. So there you go but right above mine is a endorsement from a guy who only got to read this book because I Snuck it to him.
05:33: I did get permission But I thought he would want to read this and he did and he loved it and he wrote
05:40: Astounding without a doubt ruler of Kings gets my vote for the most necessary book for the church today Not only are there very few books written on the
05:46: Lordship of Christ in the civil ethical and political realm I can think of none that expound upon so thoroughly and with such vision
05:52: Every few pages I couldn't help shouting to my wife. This is the book we've been waiting for Who's that?
05:58: John Cooper American musician singer songwriter and co -founder lead vocalist and bassist of the
06:04: Christian band skillet Yes, as soon as I got done listening You know, that's how
06:10: I did it while I was driving listening to ruler of Kings and I listened to it more than once I Sent it to sent it to to the coop to the dog doggie and He loved it and it it rocked his world.
06:26: So ruler of Kings available From Ezra Institute and wherever you get your fine books online, etc, etc
06:34: I Highly highly recommend mission of God is very very similar but it's 500 pages longer and This was written.
06:50: I think you know we think about like second Timothy Paul is has already been under persecution he's expecting his life to end at any point in time that that sort of focuses your writing and Joe boot wrote this during the severity of the lockdowns in Canada They were they were arresting pastors right left and center and he was expecting that and I think that really gives you some clarity of thought you cut through some of the fog and so Joseph boot ruler of Kings need to get it
07:26: Told the story before this is a one. This is the second volume of an entire set
07:34: And If it has this J are big W in it. Yeah, May of 1985
07:43: May of 1985 This was the BB Warfield set the collective works the works of Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield Most people don't know it's
07:53: Breckinridge, but it is Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield. I In hindsight
08:02: This was a spiritual for material trade on my part I Traded a
08:10: Ruger super Blackhawk 44 Magnum for this set of books Now I'm glad I had him
08:20: But I'm not sure I got the good end of that deal monetarily speaking, but I did and I got him from my dear friend
08:29: Jeff Neal and that was Who? 16 years
08:35: Yeah, that'd be 16 years before he and I put out the same -sex controversy. My goodness.
08:41: We've known each other forever Wow Yeah, I know.
08:46: I know. I know I know Anyway, I cut my teeth on Warfield, you know today there, you know
08:57: Apologetically, you know, he was definitely not a presuppositional list
09:02: Of course he's before Vantill but still contemporaneous with Most of the great thinkers that influenced
09:12: Vantill There would be some areas where you know, but on the Trinity and on inspiration
09:21: I will forever Be indebted to BB Warfield and of course
09:28: If you know of anything of his life His wife's health he could have produced so much more but he was absolutely faithful to his marriage vows and cared for an invalid wife his entire life and so there are many things he didn't get to do that other people did and Accepted that as part of God's providence anyway
09:50: Warfield on the Trinity I Was reminded recently I saw one of the new
09:57: Scholastics the reformed Thomas Criticizing Warfield and it it all sudden clicked for me.
10:04: Well, no wonder they don't like me Don't like Warfield and Michael like me because I've been open in Admitting my dependence upon Warfield.
10:13: In fact, I think if I'm not mistaken Yeah, yeah, here's the section
10:21: I quote this in the Forgotten Trinity Biblical this is biblical doctrine of the Trinity in the collected works page 144
10:29: We cannot speak of the doctrine of the Trinity Therefore if we study study exactness of speech as revealed in the
10:34: New Testament Anymore than we can speak of it as revealed in the Old Testament The Old Testament was written before its revelation the
10:39: New Testament after it The revelation itself was made not in word But indeed it was made in the incarnation of God the
10:45: Son the outpouring of God the Holy Spirit The relation of the two testaments to this revelation is in the one case that of preparation for it and the other that of product
10:54: Of it the revelation itself is embodied just in Christ and the Holy Spirit this is as much as to say at the revelation the
11:00: Trinity was incidental to and the inevitable effect of the accomplishment of redemption It was in the coming of the
11:07: Son of God and likeness of sinful flesh to offer himself a sacrifice for sin and the coming the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin of righteousness and of judgment that the
11:14: Trinity of persons in the unity of the Godhead Godhead was once for all revealed to men Just I I remember
11:23: I Was in I think I may have still been in Bible College Because I graduated native as I grad
11:32: I got this the same month I graduated from Bible College so before going to seminary and I just remember where I was in the little apartment that we paid 275 dollars a month for as I recall on Pasadena Drive in Phoenix And I remember reading that section and my markings are still there and Just having the lights turned on and the the doors opened and the windows opened and the light flooding in and So if One of the things that's beautiful about Warfield's explanation is it's so biblically grounded and if you've read the
12:20: Forgotten Trinity, how do I start? I'm a biblical Trinitarian and that's why I'm telling you right now.
12:26: That's There's there's my source of influence and if you're more Orthodox than Warfield was in the
12:31: Trinity. Well, congratulations to you But you're not more biblically Orthodox. That's a problem. You may be
12:38: More scholastic, but you're not and Biblical Orthodoxy is the only thing
12:44: I'm overly concerned about. It's rather important So Warfield on the Trinity get it read it and of course
12:50: Warfield's article on Theanostas Even though one guy a couple years ago tried to do an entire paper saying he was completely wrong about that talk about Face planting it was really bad
13:01: It's still one of the best things out there. And so I would highly recommend it to everybody I'll be looking at these other books when we get into another another subject
13:11: Before we dive into a couple of quotations audio quotations
13:19: Oh goodness,
13:29: I just happened to notice that the that Carmen just texted me on on On Twitter Whatever happened to the invite to come on your channel.
13:43: I guess the big thing is channel your channel my channel go on that channel I have a few pints with Aquinas and all the rest that kind of fun stuff.
13:50: That's the big thing Well, I'll tell you what Why don't you
13:58: Let me see what I've got here Why don't you listen to what I have to say today? And if you want to talk about well glad to do that I just haven't gotten the feeling from everything that I've heard you saying that you had any interest in that and you've been rather dismissive of Any of us who have tried to warn you about the direction you were going so I just really didn't think that was much of an issue
14:18: These are vitally important topics and Anyway, we'll be talking about that in just a moment.
14:26: But first Going scrolling back here just a little bit just see what
14:32: I'm missing hard not to make reference to What happened last night?
14:41: My first tweet on it was I think they broke the Internet Once the Politico story came out.
14:48: It was just like Ukraine's gone inflation's gone
14:58: Everything's gone Because of what happened last evening There are so many questions that are gonna have to be answered
15:06: So many questions that we don't yet have the answers to Who? Why?
15:12: There are lots of theories running around It's an unprecedented violation of the sanctity of the courts inner
15:23: Workings I do not believe a preliminary finding like this a majority
15:30: Opinion has ever been leaked And of course in our day once something is leaked like that It's it's out there in a second.
15:40: And of course it has been confirmed Roberts came out and that ends said yep that That's what's going around but They're gonna be launching an investigation
15:51: Obviously fingers have been pointed at one particular law clerk page for Sotomayor Who of course we know is a radical leftist
16:03: Probably not as radical as the new radical leftists that will be on the court Coming up and we have to remember that what we're seeing from the left right now
16:10: Just the vile things you're seeing from the left that the insanity the screaming the the hair -on -fire
16:18: Craziness Their worldview does not provide them with any restraint
16:26: Abortion is the sacrament of their religion Unrestrained sexual activity is the central theme
16:38: Utter rejection of any divine restraint upon human beings is
16:46: Just that's just that's just a given you can't you can't get past any of these things and so you I Mean everybody who knows anything about what's what's happening knows that this is not this is not result in the abolition of a ball of Abortion United States wish it did
17:05: Now it goes to the now it goes to the states So I here in Arizona I'm really angry with the pro -life lobby here in Arizona because year and a half ago
17:14: They got rid of the law that was on the books in Arizona that made abortion illegal now since then I think the governor has signed a
17:24: Sort of heartbeat level bill or something if I recall correctly so there would be something but abortion as a whole was against the law until the pro -life lobby traded that out for an incremental idea
17:43: Which will have to be addressed, but the point is this doesn't mean that abortion is abolished in the
17:48: United States. I wish it did But it doesn't and it means that it will go to the states and You will have more and more of a division
18:01: In the United States of America, and it's inevitable It's absolutely inevitable the coasts versus the the inland
18:12: States there will be a tremendous division, and you know places like Amazon have already started paying
18:20: They they will they will give money to employees to travel to a state where they can murder their children and Every time
18:28: I buy something from Amazon, I wish I did I didn't have to but be honestly these days. They've become a monopoly There are certain certain things that if you if you want to get it if you want to make something work
18:40: That's where you're gonna get it You know sometimes you can go directly manufacturers, but especially with the supply chain issues
18:50: You sort of wonder how that all is working out, huh? Yeah, it was pretty purposeful anyway
18:56: So that's the division that's coming but the the behavior that you're seeing from people the the vile hatred and If you've noticed libs of tick -tock posted a video, it's hard to watch foul language
19:14: Astonishing the filth of the tongues of Those who wallow in the culture of death
19:25: Just it's astonishing They they can't Many of these people cannot get through two sentences without dropping all sorts of f -bombs and everything else in the process
19:36: It's just it expresses their soul their heart But these people expressing their hatred of unborn children
19:45: There is a libs of tick -tock video about Should we burn? Aborted babies to create electricity
19:54: And and they're all just going well, why not? Yeah, let's let's do more of it
20:00: And I mean just that this you you really it's to the point where you're going Yes, so Somebody kicked open the door of hell and all the demons are running around because you you couldn't the self -destructive
20:18: I mean I've always said That I don't think God has to expend any energy whatsoever to punish anyone in hell
20:28: When you take a creature made in his image and you remove all restraints from that creature then that hatred which is currently restrained by God and currently that hand of restraint is being lessened great a great deal and You're not gonna know of anybody else in hell you're gonna be alone
20:49: People thinking where you have a big old party in hell. No, you're gonna be alone Not to see anybody else. You may hear their screams.
20:55: You're not gonna hear anybody else meet anybody else you want to lash out with your entire being at God as These people are right now
21:06: But there's nothing left to lash out against the only thing left that is made in the image of God is Yourself and I can't conceive of the depths of that suffering
21:18: But it's self -inflicted God doesn't have to be there doesn't have to be You know devils running around pitchforks or any of that kind of medieval foolishness
21:30: I think that's really what we're talking about when we talk about hell Anyway so we're seeing this taking place all around us and that we don't exactly know how to how to deal with it because First of all, it's
21:49: Romans 1 right in front of us it's a fulfillment of everything scripture says and yet we also know that Unless God had been merciful to us.
21:57: That's where we would be but we know these people hate children and which means they really hate themselves because They were children.
22:08: I mean, it's just It's a difficult time To know exactly how to respond to all these things if in fact, this is an attempt to bring tremendous pressure to bear against the five justices who have
22:24: Voted for this, you know, I would like to think because Roberts isn't listed I would like to think that what might happen here.
22:35: I'd love to see his boomerang. I Love to see him so angry
22:41: That someone tried to fundamentally Destroy the court in this way that He will actually go with the majority make it 6 -3
22:58: Just simply say no, you're not doing that. That'd be wonderful But the the the concerns are pressures against the justices and then the other thing is to create massive pressure against What have turned out to be the two
23:15: Democrats that have kept The Democrats from just simply running our nation into the ground already
23:25: Joe Manchin, West Virginia, West Virginia is not West Virginia is is not exactly the most liberal state on the planet
23:36: So if he wants to continue his political career he he's got a and it seems like he actually has some kind of Worldview backbone in some areas anyways, and then
23:48: I'm from Arizona folks And every time
23:55: I Look at one of our at our she's the she's she's not the senior senator is she oh
24:03: My goodness Mm -hmm. She is. Oh my gosh the senior senator from the great state of Arizona Kyrsten Sinema the first openly bisexual senator
24:22: Yeah So if the idea is to put pressure on those two that may work,
24:31: I don't know. I Filibuster so they can then ram through not only the
24:38: Equality Act But ram through a Roe v. Wade replacement turn into law Turn to national law
24:47: That's they want to do and they it's never been possible in the past because of the
24:55: Senate and its rules You actually have to do you actually have to get people on the other side to agree with you
25:01: So you can't have just one party rule Well, that's what they want to get rid of they want one party rule. They have it in California They're getting it out of the states got in New York pretty much
25:10: They want it the United States as well, so they can absolutely completely undo the Constitution That's that's their goal
25:17: So we'll see because man the people I see the absolute lack of mature thought self -control and simple sanity morals and ethics
25:31: Going on right now is amazing. Yes, sir What was interesting to me is that what I read last night shows that it wasn't just the document that was was leaked there's actually a discussion of the temperament of each of where each of the justices are at and why and Roberts specifically was referred to as They didn't know which way he was going to go and that he's trying to bring both sides together
25:57: Which I don't know how he does that But he's trying to make this middle ground position and not take a position and Well, I do that here.
26:06: My understanding was that's why he was on the minority side is because the position enunciated in the actual opinion written by Alito is the end of Roe and Casey and Toto right?
26:19: I mean not just a modification. Yeah flush that sucker down the toilet Flat -out calls it bad law.
26:27: Yep. Yeah, but but the the depiction on Politico that I read last night Kind of I got the impression that he wasn't really wanting to vote with the
26:36: Liberals But he doesn't want to vote with Alito either So he's he's in no -man's land well like I said this could this could give him the reason to go ahead and vote with the majority and he'll write his own opinion and try to Rescue the
26:54: Precedent idea, but yeah, yeah, we'll see we will see we pray and we pray that we will be able to respond to the
27:06: Demonic explosion in our country With gospel centered grace and No compromise not easy to do
27:17: I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that I know exactly how to do it or that I will do it exactly right because But that's what we need to pray for.
27:25: All right My daughter keeps responding to people on Twitter today
27:33: Abortion is murder. Don't argue with my daughter right now about that subject. I would highly recommend to you
27:41: I'm we were very very yesterday. Very very very thankful. She posted pictures of my soon -to -be grandson
27:53: Who is due to be born September 2nd, and he's doing great she
28:03: Appreciate prayers for that pregnancy. She's had two miscarriages in a row. And so we've been praying very hard that the
28:09: Lord would grant this little booger a healthy pregnancy and a healthy delivery and You know, she's still got some time to go
28:19: Little little buns got to stay in the oven but You know, we had just gotten that word yesterday so now not now it's not a good time to be telling a mama who's
28:31: Who's got a little baby boy in there kicking her her ribs apart That that's that's not that's that's just a blob of cells
28:40: No, I don't think so I'm sorry No, no, don't mess with summer right now actually you should never mess with summer but especially right now that would be that would be very very highly unwise as People on Twitter are probably discovering right about now.
28:57: All right, so I was directed to a Conversation on That took place actually,
29:09: I think I pulled this down from Facebook if I'm recalling correctly Um Braxton Hunter at Trinity Bible College and Seminary Yeah, I'm just looking at this yeah, cuz
29:25: I I was looking around for the YouTube link and there wasn't there it might be on YouTube someplace.
29:31: I don't know. I Don't know but this was oh Wait a minute.
29:37: No. No, it is on YouTube. Never mind. So this was posted.
29:43: It's true. So it's Trinity radio and it was What?
29:52: It's got less than 2 ,000 views So it can't be all that old
30:01: I I don't know why recently I've had more and more trouble. There it is. You really have to Pull YouTube way out.
30:10: It's for some reason thinks that the date of the posting is not relevant and it was today
30:17: I Just don't know why maybe yeah, see right there. I just pushed it back in and the date disappeared
30:24: Why does it do that? At that that that is very bothersome Anyway, so it is on the if you just want if one want people to be able to watch the whole thing.
30:35: It's on Trinity radio So you just put in Trinity radio. It'll come up May 3rd. So it's today
30:42: What will Catholicism cost Cameron Cameron Bertuzzi of Capturing Christianity Was on with Braxton Hunter on The Trinity channel and so I listened to it and You know, obviously for quite some time
31:04: I Forgotten how many times now we have addressed some of the you know
31:11: He Cameron had this Australian Roman Catholic fellow on his program a couple times and we we played some segments of that some sections of that and we've talked about solo scripture and about providing various answers to these things and there is a
31:32: Obviously, I believe there's a place for meaningful interaction we've done I've lost track over 30
31:39: Moderated public debates since August of 1990 with Jimmy Akin.
31:45: Well, actually Jimmy Akin in person. No, we did a radio debate once but Tim Staples Patrick Madrid Individuals like that Jerry Matitix, of course 13 different times and We did the great debate series on Long Island for a full decade as I recall
32:08: So Gary Machuta, and of course Mitch Paco and I have done I think five maybe six
32:17: Debates and those the ones I'd recommend to people they are They're the best because you know
32:23: Mitch Doesn't play games. He's not not trying to you know, just prove himself to be a little smart because everybody knows he already is
32:31: You know stuff like that So we've just done a lot of debates over the years
32:37: Roberts and Janice we've done a lot and I think five debates with with Bob over the years and So we've addressed the issue of the papacy solo scriptura the
32:48: Marian dogmas all sorts of things down through the years and So as I Heard these conversations going, you know, there's all this
33:00: YouTube has created all this space for conversation well, obviously
33:08: I'm not against conversation, but I think that it has to have a particular purpose and I think it has to have particular goals and I don't think that people should be engaging in these conversations when they themselves are not actually rooted and grounded in what they believe and It was just painfully obvious.
33:29: I remember I Think we talked about John six and and there was this going back.
33:34: There's Matt Fradd. I think was a guy's name and it was just I Was very clear in saying to Cameron.
33:42: It just doesn't sound like you really know what you believe you you feel you're not theologically formed I'm not sure what you're doing
33:48: Doing apologetics and that's one of the issues. This is one of the one of the things here is He's approaching this as a philosophical question doing
33:56: Bayesian statistical analysis of arguments and That's not why
34:03: I do apologetics I'm a biblical Trinitarian I believe in a biblical gospel I do apologetics because I believe the
34:10: Bible is the Word of God and That's not just one of my beliefs that's the belief that allows me to do all the other of my beliefs
34:21: Because God has spoken if God hasn't spoken it's your opinion versus my opinion If the
34:26: Bible isn't enough then it's that interpreter versus that interpreted There's there's really no sense in doing all this stuff.
34:32: And that's why I don't think I don't happen to enjoy sitting around Pretending I'm having a scotch with Somebody else that's from some other perspective
34:46: And having a bunch of people watch it I I don't find that to be Anything overly exciting anyway
34:53: So I listened to the whole whole discussion and there was a lot that I wanted to respond to But again,
35:01: I had to think about The fact that since I've been back from my trip,
35:08: I'm doing some coughing I'm that's why I'm drinking a little bit more trying to keep the voice from going too crazy and What would be most useful to people will be bone me most helpful and So we're gonna listen to some of the comments here
35:27: Provide some responses and Go from there and hopefully this will be helpful to everybody.
35:32: So this is about Yeah, it's it's it's not quite the halfway mark of the conversation this is actually 20 just under 21 minutes
35:47: Into the conversation, so let's let's listen, but there was another so the
35:53: Eucharist is something like that I Have had a sort of metaphorical view of the
35:58: Eucharist. But what I realized recently is that even if it's a you take a metaphorical reading of John 6 and John 6 is a what is the verse where Jesus says you have got
36:09: To eat my flesh. You've got to eat my Yeah, and so like but I I still to this day
36:15: I have a metaphorical view of that reading of that text but what I realized is that that's actually compatible with like the real presence view or like the
36:24: Catholic view because that's not even about the Last Supper in John 6.
36:30: It's not a Last Supper narrative So you could take a metaphorical reading of that But then still hold that when it actually comes to the
36:37: Last Supper. Jesus was talking about his body and his blood and so That's that's something that I've sort of changed my mind on recently where I lean toward that View still this metaphorical reading of John 6
36:51: But nevertheless like I could still have that view and then if I were to accept the papacy
36:57: Then I would not like it's not really an objection to Catholicism per se So I thought it was like I for the longest time
37:04: I thought that no a metaphorical reading of John 6 meant that Catholicism is probably not true
37:10: But then I came to realize no, that's not the case and I came to that actually on my own
37:16: Like I just thought about it one day and I was like, wait a second that doesn't actually follow like it's there is a possible way a possible out here for Catholicism and that you could take a metaphorical reading of John 6 and then take a sort of literal reading of the
37:31: Last Supper narratives in I think it's in Matthew Mark and Luke. So those actually are a couple of examples of doctrinal positions
37:38: Where you actually have already if not become convinced at least can see okay
37:44: That's not as big of a problem as I thought it was. Those are my big issues That that divine simplicity the
37:51: Eucharist and there was one other one that I can't think of off the top of my head I'm not sure how you have three issues and can't remember the third one is but because you're not old enough
38:02: I can do that all the time. I'm old enough. I I'm not sure I'm not sure
38:15: Just playing with rich over there. I'm I'm not sure I'm completely lost
38:21: Honestly on the divine simplicity thing because that's not a Roman Catholic Protestant issue Now we're debating how far you take simplicity and what it means and application amongst ourselves actually, but the concept that God's not made up of parts that's that's just a given so I'm sort of guessing that being heavily influenced by William Lane Craig that he's thinking divine simplicity primarily in the context of the extended application from Thomas maybe
39:00: Whatever but I would first person I've ever encountered that that thought simplicity wasn't was a dividing issue between Protestant Catholics, but anyway, and Then odd that it would be well, there's this one guy that came up with a way of defining it that I'm okay with I'm not sure if you're gonna say that there is a certain doctrine of simplicity that is dogmatically demanded by Rome That's gonna be
39:26: Thomas's view specifically, so but hey Philosophically, you can come up with anything you want in that area, you know, as long as you work hard enough that But notice the discussion of the
39:37: Eucharist. It's not about John 6. I mean obviously John 6 is
39:43: John 6 defines itself John Start start where Jesus starts and He says the one coming to me will never hunger the one believing
39:54: He will never thirst he defines the hungering the thirsting as coming and believing in him That's that's his own definition from the start.
40:01: And yeah, it's not a Last Supper narrative As you have in the Gospels or in 1st
40:07: Corinthians chapter 11 but it certainly has been used by the bishops of Rome as Foundational to the entire concept of the
40:20: Mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice, but Here's the problem. I Never hear
40:26: Cameron Showing that a Biblical theology is his foundation for analyzing anything
40:38: The whole concept of the Eucharist is a direct has direct impact upon what you believe about the issue of the atonement
40:46: What is the atonement? What did it accomplish for? Whom was it made? Who is the high priest in the book of Hebrews?
40:54: why is there no sacerdotal priesthood anywhere in the New Testament because there isn't and why is it that the one high priest offers
41:02: F a pox one time a Sacrifice that perfects all those for whom it's made and how does that therefore impact?
41:14: The whole concept of the Mass the perpetuatory sacrifice the idea that you You know what the the
41:21: YouTube video is. What would Catholicism cost Cameron Bertuzzi? This is the issue
41:29: It costs you peace with God It costs you peace with God because there is no finished work.
41:38: You have the Mass as a representation in an unbloody fashion of the sacrifice of Calvary, but it does not perfect those for whom it is made and you can
41:53: Come to the Mass 10 ,000 times in your life still die impure and end up in purgatory undergoing undergoing the suffering of status passio and You can go to the cross 10 ,000 times in your life and commit a mortal sin before you die and go to hell
42:09: Now do I think the current Pope believes any of that? No, I don't But that's the point because I can guarantee you all the
42:18: Pope's before him did or at least four or five back did without any question and so so much for the infallible papacy and the continuity of the teaching offices of church and blah blah blah blah blah because anybody
42:32: That's the whole thing. Why would anybody be looking at Roman Catholicism right now and even talking about? We're gonna read we're gonna listen to him here saying that his
42:41: Bayesian Analysis has the papacy at 85 to 90 percent in the days of Francis.
42:52: I Mean, you know when I first started saying Roman Catholicism John Paul is second Hey, he had been on the throne for a long time, right?
43:00: and At least you can make some type of argumentation for continuity of teaching content, but you can't do that with Francis You know if you're honest, you know what this guy actually believes and it's just such a ruse
43:15: To sit back and go. Yeah, but you know, the Spirit won't let him teach that to the church.
43:21: What do you mean? He has filled the College of Cardinals with his own acolytes.
43:27: Is that not teaching the church? Will that not have more fundamental impact upon the direction of the church than anything he would have to say, of course it will
43:38: It's just it's just amazing these days, you know, I know how it was back in the 90s
43:43: Well, we have the Pope and we have the continuity of the teaching office and blah blah blah You don't have that anymore.
43:49: And there's a lot of people recognizing it but I guess that doesn't fit into the
43:56: Calculations or something but there's no there's no recognition of the theological content of the teaching of the
44:06: Eucharist in The sense of what it really means that there is no finished work and that's why there is no peace
44:14: Any sin that you commit will be imputed to you and here's here's the question
44:22: I'll come back to this text in a second, but here's here's the the question that I've been asking
44:30: Roman Catholics for a very very long time and Cameron texted me. So hopefully he's listening or will listen
44:40: Was the cost the cost is being the blessed man
44:48: The cost is being the blessed man Romans chapter 4 verse 4 now to the one who works
44:55: His wage is not credited as a favor But as what is due but to the one who does not work
45:03: But believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is credited as righteousness now
45:11: There is a whole Discussion I've done entire presentations on this you can go back and look at in Regards to how these two are parallel to one another you notice today air gods a minnow to the one working
45:25: Today may air gods a minnow to the one not working. So they're in parallel to one another and so the idea of Working so as to receive
45:42: That is like it's a tie it is imputed Not according to cotton grace
45:51: But according to Oh file a ma what is owed what is due? But then the opposite of that to one not working but believing
46:02: There's the issue sola fide not
46:10: Kicking the door open the entire sacramental system by saying well faith working through love the contrast here is between working and believing
46:21: That's different context faith where you love there Believes in the one justifying the ungodly his faith is reckoned him as righteousness that faith that empty hand of faith and then when
46:38: David also speaks verse 6 of The blessing of the man to whom
46:43: God credits righteousness apart from works and so notice Paul's assertion is like it's a take a kaya soon a chorus ergo
46:52: God imputes righteousness apart from works This is what
46:59: God does but it's fascinating the text he quotes from Psalm 32 Psalm 33 acceptance
47:07: When he quotes this material look at what it's about It's not about the
47:17: Imputation of righteousness. So did Paul miss it? No notice what it is Excuse me blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven and Whose sins have been covered?
47:30: so lawless deeds on a me I Marti I Sins and lawless deeds have been forgiven and covered over and in verse 8 blessed is the man who?
47:46: Who ooh? May like yes a tie courios how marty on blesses the man to whom who may?
47:58: Like yes a tie air subjunctive strong to know the Lord will never will not impute sin
48:09: Now If you know Roman Catholic theology, and there are a lot of people who think they do but they don't
48:18: Now when talking about Cameron here If you know Roman Catholic theology, and you ask any believing
48:26: Roman Catholic if you commit a mortal sin
48:33: Now there is no infallible definition of exactly what that means and You'll get different definitions depending on what priest talk to But you commit a mortal sin
48:45: At least in Orthodox historic Roman Catholicism called the Catholicism since Trent The grace of justification is destroyed and You're not no longer at peace with God and you have to be rejustified
49:03: You have to go through penance Enter back into that state of friendship with God sacramentally
49:11: If you die in that state you'll be lost Like I said, I I really doubt the majority of the
49:17: Magisterium and the Roman Catholic Church actually believes this anymore but it is what's taught and You've got to deal with the fact that the leadership and what is taught in the allegedly infallible dogmatic documents
49:32: Don't quite meet up anymore. You got to deal with it, but that's teaching
49:38: If you commit a venial sin, which does not destroy the grace of justification, it's still imputed to you and You have to bear the temporal punishments for that sin and Unless you're a saint and have more merit than you have temporal punishments.
49:55: That's why you go to purgatory But the point is in Roman Catholicism, there is no blessed man.
50:02: I really wish You know exactly what
50:09: I'm talking about, don't you You're just thinking about weren't you Haha Let me let hold on let me develop theology of oh
50:34: This is long, I don't know it's worthwhile.
50:41: I think it's worthwhile This is
50:48: The cross -examination in 2001 21 years ago Between myself and father
50:55: Peter Stravinskis man has two PhDs from Ivy League schools. The subject is Purgatory it was probably one of the most enlightening debates
51:05: I've ever had on justification What? So do we think that he knows?
51:13: Roman Catholicism You mean Stravinskis? Oh, yeah. Well, there would be people after that debate that would question that though I'll never forget the one guy in the audience that was talking to Michael Fallon and He heard him talking to this other guy and it was a
51:30: Roman Catholic and he was saying oh when when father Stravinskis would speak it was just so Spiritually and comforting and lightening and then white would speak and you could see the demons dancing around his head
51:43: Yeah, that was yeah, that was but you know, you get the idea here that you know The guy's got a little education.
51:50: He kind of knows his stuff Well, he's the editor of the Catholic answer. So so we we go to watch this and you you
51:58: I Think we're getting a Roman Catholic perspective here even in the case of someone stumped.
52:04: Yeah, let's go ahead and listen to it Let's go ahead and listen to it. Here we go. Guston who certainly had a very very highly developed theology of Revelation which is more than just scripture for Augustine Augustine also would be very comfortable in saying at another point
52:23: Roma Lakuta est causa finita. I asked Rome has spoken and the case is closed
52:30: And sir, could you tell me where that's found? No again,
52:35: I don't have my little so is it not true That's found in sermon 131 Have you ever looked at sermon 131, sir?
52:41: Of course in Augusta, okay, and are you aware that that phrase that you just quoted never appears in any text of a sermon 131
52:49: I Can provide you with the actual Latin text you want me to look it up that does not appear
52:56: Let me just let me just mention what this is all about Augusta never said Rome Rome Lakuta es causa finitas.
53:03: Okay, that's a common mythology. He had just accepted it If you want to dig into more of that,
53:08: I'll put in Sermon sermo or sermon 13131 in the search engine ailment org
53:17: It's a lengthy article but it's fascinating it's about zosimus and the North Africans and Pelagius and Just all sorts of stuff.
53:27: The point is he was wrong. He was quoting something that he had been taught in school, but it never looked it up and I had and I'm fairly certain that article had been written before our debate and so the information was there it was a little confusing during the debate that he didn't understand what
53:47: I was saying that that Augusta never said those words, so That's the background or anywhere in sermon 131
53:57: It doesn't know no sir that I'm sorry The the point I was making is you seem you you just made a quotation from Augusta And I'm challenging you that While that is said to appear in sermon 131.
54:11: That is a one of the most common apologetic errors of Roman Catholic apologists The standard one used by actually anyone in fact
54:21: So I but I I can't I would be glad to explicate on that and provide you with the actual
54:27: Latin But that is not the text of what he said But going back to what he did say so you said that the church cannot teach anything contrary to Scripture Would you say that that was
54:38: Augustine's position that the church then could teach something that the scriptures were silent about? So when he said what more shall
54:48: I teach you than what we read in the Apostle for Holy Scripture Fixes the rule for our doctrine lest we dare to be wiser than we ought therefore
54:55: I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the teacher Would you find that to be consistent or inconsistent with what you just said
55:03: I Think the point he is making there is precisely the point. I had just made that Scripture is a norma normans
55:11: It is a norm norm norming all others You don't hear him saying that I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the teacher
55:21: Well, he would see that the church has an understanding of the words of the teacher a deeper appreciation as time goes on Okay back to the scriptural text in the five minutes that we have left before our closing statements
55:39: When in the book of Hebrews we are told that Jesus Christ by his sacrifice and specifically
55:47: I'm looking here at Hebrews chapter 10 Give you a specific reference here
55:56: Hebrews chapter 10 verse 10 When the scripture says for by this will
56:04: We have been made holy Through the once for all offering of the body of Jesus Christ would be one rendering of the
56:13: Greek text here What does it mean to you
56:19: That we have been sanctified for by this one will
56:26: Actually, I'm pleased that you brought up this idea about from from Hebrews because One of the things that always concerns me in conversations like this is that There seems to be such an emphasis on the redeeming element of Christ's death on Calvary that the total
56:54: Experience of the Incarnation is lost sight of so that one tends to focus on one particular moment and Everything else of the mystery of the
57:03: Incarnation is cast into oblivion Hebrews 10 -5 talks about the fact that it is the body that is the body of Christ that he assumes in the mystery of the
57:18: Incarnation that saves the world and Therefore the entire mystery of Christ's life
57:26: Which is an embodied existence which he has even now as the risen and ascended Lord Therefore the incarnational principle is incredibly important if we simply focus on on the
57:40: Lord's death Which is obviously critically important, but if that's the point of the redemption of the human race
57:49: Then without sounding too blasphemous We could say that God wasted an awful lot the
57:54: God the Father wasted an awful lot of time By sending his son here for 33 years or 60 years if you want to go with someone else's understanding
58:02: When all he had to do was sent him down for three hours to die on a cross What is that have to do with the question that I asked?
58:10: What does it mean? That by one by this will we have been sanctified. Well, let me back up Where in Hebrews 10 5 does it say that his body saved the world sir a body you have given me and where does that say?
58:23: It saved the world That's the that's the vehicle of the redemption of the world Is the salvation of the world not through the offering of that body on the tree?
58:33: It's the total Christ event in Hebrews chapter 10. Can you find the phrase the total
58:39: Christ event? I think we're being silly. Well, I'm simply pointing out sir
58:48: He's quoting Psalm 40. Mm -hmm you who wanted no sacrifice of our blade or ablation prepared a body for me, right?
58:56: And where does it say then that where where does salvation come in here? Is it not verse 10?
59:02: Is it not verse 14 for by one offering he is perfected for all time offering is his entire life
59:09: Okay resurrection. So if it isn't his entire life and We believe that the positive righteousness that is imputed to us is the positive righteousness of Jesus Christ If it is it is his entire life
59:22: Then how then can you say that the righteousness that we have could in any way be incomplete?
59:28: Which would require us to go to a place called purgatory? To suffer for the temporal punishments of our sins before we enter into the presence of God You're the one that's talking about imputed righteousness.
59:37: I'm not you're not talking about imputed righteousness. Well, okay So, let me ask you one last question then in Romans 4.
59:44: Okay. Did you catch that now here comes to Romans 4 part? I'm sorry. I didn't have this queued up. I just thought about it and It I didn't mean to stop it right there
59:53: Father Stravinsky's wanted to leave And we hadn't even gotten the audience questions yet But you're just so mean all the time and all your debates.
01:00:02: You just you know, oh, yeah, actually I'm just asking calmly those pointed sticky questions porcupine ish
01:00:11: Obviously he had never Really dealt with this issue on this level before but anyway, so here comes around this fourth thing
01:00:17: But did you catch what he said? You're the one talking about imputed righteousness. Not me catch that there is no imputed righteousness and Anytime I talk to a person who calls himself a a current
01:00:35: Protestant Who is thinking about swimming the Tiber? Becoming Roman Catholic I look at them and say so you're gonna trade the imputed righteousness of Christ as The sole foundation of your peace with God for the endless treadmill of the sacramental system of Rome and that's what
01:00:58: I discover very quickly where they have a clue What the imputed righteousness of Christ means
01:01:05: How central it is? How it's the heart of the gospel How it's the foundation of peace what peace is and How it is brought about through that single atoning work
01:01:20: Stravinsky's had no idea That this isn't this isn't the norm of what is discussed in the ivory covered halls of Ivy League schools and So he's frustrated
01:01:34: So here comes the Romans 4 section 8 when Paul says blesses the man to whom
01:01:40: God will not impute sin Who's the blessed man? First of all, it's
01:01:45: Christ catch that Catch that did you catch that? his first response is
01:01:54: That it's Christ now think about it Christ is a blessed man because God will not impute Christ's sin to Christ Here's a man who has never
01:02:05: In his life evidently at least in any reflective fashion Considered who is the blessed man of Romans for it?
01:02:15: Am I the blessed man? It's astonishing when you think about it
01:02:23: But we go on so Christ is the blessed man to whom God will not impute sin That's what he's talking about when in Romans 4 6
01:02:31: He says Paul speaks about the blessedness upon the man that God that it all of a sudden
01:02:36: He's now talking about Christ. So that's that's the only fulfillment of Romans 4 8. No, who else then? Are you the blessed man?
01:02:42: I hope so. You hope so. So you catch that I hope so I Hope you see
01:02:55: Thank you, I'll you can go ahead and take that down There is no consistent answer from Roman Catholicism Because there is no non imputation of sin because there is no imputation of the righteousness of Christ which he just admitted
01:03:11: Commit a mortal sin it's imputed to you committed venial sin. It's imputed to you So who is the blessed man to whom?
01:03:18: The Lord will never impute sin The biblical answer is in Romans chapter 4 every single believer
01:03:25: That's how you have peace with God. That's what's going to lead us to Romans 5 1 therefore haven't been justified by faith
01:03:30: We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ That's what you give up That should have been the answer to the title of the video
01:03:42: What do you give up? Peace? Peace the ability to have peace with God Because you no longer have a finished work
01:03:53: You now have to go to a man who in his ordination is identified as an altar Christus Another Christ Through whom you gain access to some of the merit of Christ But not enough to perfect you you can no longer come to a finished work
01:04:19: The cost is peace because that's what the issue is Soul Sculpture is important because it has to deal with this
01:04:26: Mary is important because it has to deal with this. What is this? It's the gospel It's how you have peace with God You know have peace with God through your philosophical syllogisms.
01:04:39: You have peace with God by resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ on your behalf and If that's not where you've been resting if you're if you're peace with God Has been based upon How well you work philosophical systems, then you've never understood in the first place
01:04:58: But that's the cost for anybody Even some of the things that Braxton Hunter said made me go
01:05:06: That's interesting Maybe he's thinking about some of these things.
01:05:12: What's the cost for anybody peace with God? Peace of God that's cost that's cost.
01:05:18: So we're gonna listen just a couple other things here cuz that wasn't the main thing I'm sorry that I'm going longer here. I Wasn't playing and playing that but there was a lot of good stuff in there so Here we go like a
01:05:31: Bayesian analysis of this of The papacy itself. So like take each data point that is relevant to the papacy like these different verses in the
01:05:42: Bible like Matthew 16 like Luke 22 like John 21 and Then actually ask the question like how likely is this data given the papacy?
01:05:51: How likely is this data given the falsity of the papacy Plug that into an actual
01:05:57: Bayesian calculation and just sort of see where the numbers Go from there and then also plug in all of the different arguments from Gavin Ortland and Mike winger
01:06:05: Against the papacy and just kind of see like where do the numbers actually fit in here?
01:06:10: And where should my credence in this doctrine actually be as opposed to just being swayed by you know
01:06:16: Some good -sounding rhetoric or like yeah, that sounds like a really good objection to Catholicism like I'm just gonna be stay
01:06:23: Protestant, but then actually do the hard work of weighing this this these different pieces of data and actually getting a probability that is is based on good reason and so I Just felt like doing a sort of Bayesian analysis of the papacy was like the best way to go for me
01:06:41: And I realized a lot of people are gonna where you add in that percentage Bayesian analysis
01:06:47: Bayesian analysis Does does that include?
01:06:53: For example, you just mentioned Matthew 16 John 21 Von Dullinger and the
01:07:02: Pope and the council from 1869 quoted of all the fathers who interpret these passages in the
01:07:08: Gospels Matthew 16 18 John 21 17 not a single one applies them to the Roman bishops as Peter's successors
01:07:14: How many fathers have visited themselves these texts yet not one of those commentaries we possess origin Christus Tim Hillary Augustine Cyril Theodorette and those whose interpretations are collected in Catena's has
01:07:25: Dropped the faintest hint the primacy of Rome is the consequence of the Commission and promise to Peter Not one of them has explained the rocker
01:07:31: Foundation which Christ would build his church the office given to Peter to be transmitted to his successors But they understood it by either
01:07:38: Christ himself or Peter's confession of faith in Christ often both together Or else they thought Peter was the foundation equally with all the other
01:07:45: Apostles the 12 being together the foundation stones of the church the fathers could the less recognized in the power of the keys and the power of binding and loosing any special prerogative or Lordship of the
01:07:55: Roman bishop in as much as what is obvious to anyone at first sight they did not regard the power first given to Peter and afterwards conferred on all the
01:08:03: Apostles as anything peculiar to him or hereditary in line of Roman bishops and They held the symbols of the keys as meaning just the same as the figurative expression of binding and loosing so One of the earliest books
01:08:18: I read when I started getting this called the infallibility of the church by George Salmon and So I you know,
01:08:23: I would ask Cameron have where does this fit into your analysis? Have you you worked through all this?
01:08:30: How about William Whitaker? Good. Do you ode? Um Chemnitz, I Just mentioned about eight or nine volumes right there.
01:08:40: I mean, it's just one volume but Good Whitaker Chemnitz. I think that's about nine volumes right there.
01:08:47: Is that You realize that your analysis will never end It can't
01:08:54: I mean I have I have a massive Selection of citations here on all sorts of issues from early church fathers and Roman dogmatic statements and and just all sorts of Things in regards to you know,
01:09:15: Augustine's Let's see, did it did it that uh Yeah Just so many things marked here in regards to the things you'd never find in jurgens, for example
01:09:32: That are all extremely relevant extremely important What what if there are two or three pages in here they would completely alter your
01:09:42: Bayesian Analysis, what do you do with your soul?
01:09:50: You see philosophical analysis of arguments and statements Is not how you determine these things
01:09:57: I commend you for Looking at things. I'm not sure how broadly you've been looking at things.
01:10:04: I commend you for doing so but there's only one certain guide in these issues and It's what's called scripture and all the rest of stuff you're you're looking at scripture as if it's one of these things out here
01:10:21: Rather than a consistent word that answers these questions That's problem.
01:10:27: That's a that's a very serious problem. I Continue I realize a lot of people are gonna where you add in that percentage wise if we're looking at a loading bar
01:10:36: So the the percentage as of late I think is in the it's either in the 80s or the 90s
01:10:43: For we're getting close the papacy. Oh, okay I know I was saying like in a loading bar like in terms of how much data as you are to being done with Oh, oh, although I think you may have just given me something even more interesting.
01:10:55: No, you're not you think that Bayesian calculation Gives you the papacy is valid Currently you have it up to 80 90 % yeah when we say if I had my computer
01:11:06: I could just pull it up and show you 80 90 % Based on what?
01:11:14: based on your fallible understanding of The facts that you have currently encountered.
01:11:22: I Don't know how much you've studied the pornocracy. I don't know how much you've studied the rise in monarch
01:11:31: Monarchical Episcopate in Rome. I I don't I don't I don't know But you're the one putting the data in How how biased are you you're the one assigning the probabilities
01:11:47: That You you at the end will tell other people they should be doing the same thing and should listen to what you're saying
01:11:55: But you're the one doing all the assigning of probabilities and everything else. Why why you I I don't know
01:12:05: It's strange. So one the big thing here and this is a long a long section. This is the main thing
01:12:10: I want to get to sorry Um, this is a topic that we have dealt with for decades if you go on to a omen org and You put in Isaiah 22
01:12:23: You will find article after article after article going back in the 1990s Going back and forth with Roman Catholic apologists on their argument about the keys of David and Peter And Isaiah 22
01:12:43: Matthew 16, etc, etc This is in the debates that we debated this when
01:12:48: I debated Scott Butler and Roberts and Janice at Boston College in 93 or 4 90
01:12:54: I've been 93 94 somewhere around there which is online and Again in most of the papacy debates because it's a popular thing.
01:13:05: Well Cameron Admits in what we're about to listen to that that's one of the biggest chunks in favor of the papacy in his calculations is this argument
01:13:16: But shows no familiarity whatsoever with a rather Forceful refutation of it
01:13:24: We'll share it after we listen. I'm gonna go ahead and since it's taken some time.
01:13:29: We're gonna crank it up to 1 .2 So we can get through this just a little bit quicker now However, there's one piece of data that is weighing heavily on the side of the papacy that I'm very tentative on at this point
01:13:42: And it's the typological connection between Isaiah 22 and Matthew 16 basically in Matthew 16
01:13:48: That's the passage about Peter being the rock and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it
01:13:53: Whatever you and then he gives Peter the keys to the kingdom and then says whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven and There's this connection that some people have been making between that and another office that let me just mention in passing really quickly
01:14:09: Not going to expand upon it. But as I've pointed out in debates with Jerry Matitick's at Denver Seminary and people for years
01:14:18: Dosso in Matthew 16 19 is future. I will give to you Not he just said he gave
01:14:24: Peter the keys. It's future. I will give and So I I would ask when did when did the
01:14:32: Lord Jesus give Peter in Exclusion to the other Apostles because that's Rome's teaching She anathematizes you if you say otherwise so when did
01:14:42: Peter receive the keys and An authority that the other Apostles did not themselves receive because the early church didn't didn't believe that Okay, so Rome will say this is what we has been believing but it's it's just a lie
01:14:57: It's just not true So and that's in the dogmatic stuff.
01:15:02: So you got lies and dogmatic stuff, which you have to believe by face so there are issues to be dealt with there, but When did
01:15:09: Peter receive the keys because it didn't in Matthew 16 its future tense dosso So the only answers are if you look at Matthew you you can
01:15:21: Matthew chapter 18 Jesus gives the Apostles That authority
01:15:28: But Peter's not singled out. He's just one of the Apostles. They all receive it together So if that's not it because that would be all of them together then
01:15:36: Matthew never recorded Peter receiving these keys So the central key issue key issue
01:15:43: Not even recorded or if it is recorded to Matthew 18 and he doesn't receive it specially so just point out that There's a problem
01:15:52: That both historically and exegetically at that at that point located in Isaiah 22 by a guy named
01:15:58: Eliakim And Eliakim there's very similar language. They say Swan Sona is like the main proponent of this type of argument he says that there's a typological connection like a sort of Fulfillment of the
01:16:09: Old Testament to the New Testament in Peter and this office was successive it was like second -in -command, which would make sense with Peter being second -in -command to Jesus and so there's basically, what
01:16:22: I found is that that data if if there is this connection this typological connection between Peter and Eliakim if that is real then that is pretty likely if the papacy is true to get some some type of connection like this, but if there you know if If the papacy is not true, how likely is it that we would have this connection and that seems pretty low
01:16:43: Like it seems pretty low that we have great debates recently on this issue that I think we should point people to I was thinking
01:16:49: Of this when you last night speaking at a local church mentioned someone was asking Well, how do I learn? you know the what other people believe in a clear way and I was thinking debates is a good way because you're not just getting that opponent through the lens of Your guy right, but you're getting you're getting both.
01:17:05: Yeah on their own terms Yeah and there are two great debates on this I can think of and I think one of them might be on your channel almost
01:17:10: Gavin Ortlund and Swan Sona Swan Sona that one is fantastic. It's so good and there since you kind of enunciated that the
01:17:17: Catholic position Yeah Gavin Ortlund's primary concern is and it's a more it's a way.
01:17:23: I love the way he says it to his term terminology Or what is a typology run mock? Yeah but the thing but the thing about it with that is it put legs on what
01:17:30: I said to you on the phone that was My concern which is I this is where I feel like the squirrely stuff gets in That's my
01:17:36: Protestant take and that was a way of saying what he's saying there And what I needed was or what I would want to see is some didactic teaching about this and a typology or just the teaching but the typology without the didactic teaching is what is difficult, but I see what you mean if that is an intended typological connection
01:17:55: Yeah, then that I can see why someone might see okay That would be very shouldn't Peter then function according to that typology.
01:18:02: Is that kind of how it goes how likely so? Yeah, when we it looks like he did and it was like, oh, yeah Yeah and then and then the question is how likely is this data given the papacy and that's that's fairly expected like I would
01:18:13: I put 0 .5 like as likely as not that we would have this data But then how likely is this data if the papacy is not true?
01:18:20: I put that is pretty low. So like 0 .01 like 1 % chance that we'd have this typological connection and Yeah, and the papacy is not true
01:18:28: So what that's doing that's doing a lot of work in the overall case that I'm looking at in the
01:18:33: Bayesian analysis That is or is not already in your numbers doing it's in the numbers right now And that's how I have it set up So I'm giving weight a lot of weight to this typological issue now the reason why
01:18:43: I'm still tentative and why I'm not Catholic at this point given the numbers is because I'm not sold on the typological argument
01:18:49: Okay, so there you have Isaiah 22 and I listen to the rest and this the
01:19:00: Important stuff never came up. So I I had no no reason to believe
01:19:06: I had no evidence given to me that that Cameron has Heard the other side there's
01:19:12: I'm not the only one that's responded to this Lots of people have it's in print.
01:19:17: It's all over the place. But again Good Whitaker Salmon They're not on a lot of Christian bookstore shelves if there are
01:19:26: Christian bookstores anymore and So, I don't know if he's been directed to them but let's look at Isaiah 22
01:19:35: If you start back at verse 15 you you have a Oracle given to Shebna who is in charge of the royal household household, but he is going to be pulled down verse 19
01:19:45: I'll depose you from your office and I will pull you down from your station Then it will come about in that day that I will summer my servant
01:19:52: Heliakim the son of Hilkiah And I will clothe him with your tunic and tie your sash securely about him.
01:19:59: I will entrust him with your authority and He'll become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem into the house of Judah Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder
01:20:11: When he opens no one will shut when he shuts no one will open and I will drive him like a peg in a firm place and He'll become a throne of glory to his father's house
01:20:22: Now again, as I said put in Isaiah chapter 22 ailman .org
01:20:27: you'll find Decades ago lengthy discussions with Roman Catholic apologists on these issues
01:20:35: But the argument is here is the key of David the key of the house of David. It's on his shoulder
01:20:41: Now a couple things first. I would like to know who the first person in church history was
01:20:48: Whoever made a connection between Isaiah chapter 22 and the papacy. I've been asking this question for decades
01:20:55: I don't know of anybody in the first millennium. It's not the teaching of the early church fathers
01:21:02: It's not the teaching of the early Roman bishops who were very quick to find
01:21:09: Arguments for themselves. It is not a teaching of the early church Just not there. I'd like to know if you if you find it, let me know
01:21:17: Because I've been asking for a long time So this is a as with so much of Rome's teaching about the papacy remember
01:21:28: Rome that the rise of the papacy was dependent upon a tremendous amount of Apocryphal literature literature that was that was pseudonymous so forged and so The Isidore and decretals the pseudo
01:21:46: Isidore and decretals the donation of Constantine These were vital in the establishment of the papacy and Rome today admits.
01:21:53: They're all they're all forgeries They were all fake without them. There would be no papacy today. So historically the foundations of papacy have been eroded down to a sliver and I've still encountered
01:22:06: Roman Catholics in doing debates with them where they used Forgeries in their argumentation.
01:22:11: They didn't know their forgeries, but they were so common in Roman Catholic Roman Catholic argumentation
01:22:20: It's hard to get rid of Yeah, so What about Isaiah 22 22
01:22:30: If you're gonna ask about the key of the house of David why not go to the
01:22:36: New Testament fulfillment of it There is Revelation 3 7 the risen
01:22:45: Lord Jesus and The angel the Church of Philadelphia, right he who is holy Who is true?
01:22:52: Who has the key of David? Who opens and no one will shut and who shuts and no one opens says this now now now.
01:23:01: No, wait a minute if you look at Cross references to this they'll they'll take you back to Isaiah chapter 22.
01:23:14: It's the same language. It's being used here so Who has the key of David Who opens and no one shut and who shuts and no one's opens.
01:23:25: This is the risen Lord Jesus Christ Speaking to the churches and it says he has the key of David Peter doesn't have it.
01:23:39: Well Peter was dead by then. Well, but if there's succession then Jesus has it
01:23:49: Jesus reigns by that power The only New Testament fulfillment that you're gonna find
01:23:56: Puts the key safely in Jesus's hands not Peter's So you can't find me anybody in the early church
01:24:05: If you two differently the New Testament gives a different fulfillment But that's functioning in your calculations in a major way to make you 80 to 90 percent certain of the claims of the papacy
01:24:22: This is why you don't determine these things based upon you assigning various percentage weights
01:24:32: To arguments and putting them into a calculator the scriptures teach us the form of the early church and what
01:24:44: Rome has had to do if If you're familiar with the development hypothesis if you're familiar with John Henry Cardinal Newman you know that to substantiate the modern
01:24:57: Roman Catholic view of The the Pope is infallible The head of the church all the rest this kind of stuff that the exalted position
01:25:07: Newman knew that's not what the early church believed Newman knew it didn't function that way didn't Why have the
01:25:13: Council of Nicaea? Why don't you go to the Pope in Rome? How about it?
01:25:21: Homoousius, Homoousius, Heterousius, just go to the Pope in Rome. We don't need a council and Even at that council
01:25:29: The Roman legates were not relevant oh later later forged stories tried to make them relevant because it was sort of embarrassing but and Who was it that defended
01:25:39: Nicaea in the 40 years afterwards when it became the minority view? Wasn't the Bishop of Rome Liberius gave in It was
01:25:47: Alexander Alexandria and Athanasius, Alexander and then his successor is
01:25:52: Athanasius. They're the ones that Hmm. Wow, how'd that happen? There's just so much so much
01:26:03: You you don't do this by calculations you do this by recognizing what the
01:26:08: Word of God teaches and the Word of God does not teach that there is a Pope at the head of the church Peter when he writes calls himself a fellow elder.
01:26:17: He does not count call himself the Vicar of Christ or anything along those lines and The early the early church's interpretation of those key texts is not the modern
01:26:27: Roman Catholic interpretation of those texts either That's just the reality so I wanted to respond to those things because people will hear this kind of argumentation and Because people are not overly familiar with early church history or they're not familiar with especially
01:26:49: Old Testament usage Typologies and things like that fulfillment in the New Testament in Jesus himself in Revelation chapter 3
01:26:58: They're like, oh that sounds really interesting and and yet it's just it it's as bogus a form of argumentation as all the stuff that Rome uses to try to say that because Solomon brought a throne in for his mother that this has something to do with Mary and all the rest of the typological
01:27:25: Wahooness that comes into the various Marian dogmas as well You can prove anything this way
01:27:33: You really can't as long as you want to you can come up with something you can come up with something So we want to respond to that now.
01:27:40: I noticed that Cameron has been commenting on I hereby invite me to come on my channel to discuss
01:27:50: Catholicism That is unless he'd rather talk about me than to me I this is why I've just not gotten the idea
01:27:57: Cameron that there really was any reason to do so You've never been overly nice about about our exchanges
01:28:04: Because I've been very straightforward from the beginning and saying this is where this is where this leads
01:28:11: Because I was talking to people about this subject when you were five
01:28:18: So I Just I'm like I know where this is gonna go and it's like well if you don't
01:28:25: Indulge me in this and you're being a mean nasty person. I've not been mean nasty In fact, if you really sat back who has been the most
01:28:35: Pastoral for you Person who warns you about where you're going and what the cost would be because I think peace with God's an important thing
01:28:43: I really do So if you want to do something like this we've got to set up you've got to set up, but we'll do it here so you let me know and we can we can set it up and we can talk about Isaiah 22 and we can talk about the papacy and we can talk about the bodily assumption of Mary because You do realize that if the one thing let me tell you just one quick story
01:29:11: I've got a minute and a half here before I go to jumbo and rich is like I don't care I Forget I looked it up just recently what year it was but It's been about a decade.
01:29:26: I think now Because we were here we met in my office. I met with a
01:29:32: Presbyterian pastor who was Doing the swimming in the
01:29:38: Tiber thing And his primary issues were on sola scriptura, and so we talked about some of those things but he was a pastor of a as I recall a
01:29:47: PCA Church a fairly large one and you're not and I don't get a feeling you're at all reformed and so Some of the things
01:29:59: I said to him. I would not necessarily say to you in the same way, but When we got done talking
01:30:08: About solo scriptura or at least respond to some of the things he was saying and I knew I wasn't gonna satisfy him I could tell he was way way far gone at the time.
01:30:16: We talked I looked him in the eye, and I said First thing that I'm gonna say to you, and I'm gonna be very and I was very straightforward with him
01:30:26: I Was very straightforward with him because these are eternal these are eternal issues.
01:30:32: You don't play games this I'm not a modern. You have to protect everybody's feelings stuff.
01:30:37: We're talking about eternal stuff here, and I said to him I said If you're gonna become a
01:30:44: Roman Catholic you need to go all the way Need be a real Roman Catholic you need to believe what Roman Catholicism teaches all of it
01:30:49: All the Marian stuff the stuff that makes you queasy right now Because you really know that that's that's not what the
01:30:57: Apostles were teaching and that's not apostolic and and in fact The last stuff that has been defined in the past hundred and seventy some -odd years
01:31:07: The early church would have gone what? Really that's part of the gospel never heard of it what?
01:31:15: So I said you need to go all the way don't be one of those mealy -mouthed wishy -washy Ecumenical I Could have easily gone to Canterbury or Constantinople But I decided to go to Rome type people you're gonna become a
01:31:31: Roman Catholic go all the way believe what Roman Catholicism actually teaches and By all of it
01:31:39: Go whole hog Because what you're doing is You're trading the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ which you have stood before your people and this is where I don't know
01:31:52: Where you are, but he had stood before his people and it proclaimed to them
01:31:59: That for him and for them their only peace with God Was because of the imputed righteousness of Christ It's all his work
01:32:11: We are the blessed man to whom God will never impute sin because our sins have been imputed to him in our place
01:32:18: But you have to have a finished work for that and you're giving that up You're trading that in you're getting on the treadmill.
01:32:25: You're going to the mass. You're seeing the priest You're giving all it up So go all the way
01:32:33: Don't try to hold on to stuff that how can you hold on to stuff? That's all self -contradictory How can you on one hand say yes finished work of Christ sufficient for me and on this hand
01:32:46: Mass perpetuatory sacrifice got to keep going Not perfected by it go all the way.
01:32:58: He didn't even know what to say to me But I would say it to you, I don't know if you have ever stood before people as I have and Said to them my only hope is
01:33:17: Found not just in the nebulous sense of Jesus because you see what Rome does is well
01:33:22: Jesus gives us the sacraments you see my only hope is
01:33:28: In the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. My only hope is to be the blessed man And I can be the blessed man because I have a finished work.
01:33:39: I can be the blessed man because I'm not the one working I'm the one believing and My faith is credited as righteousness and Rome anathematized that view at Trent you can you can you can go with your modern interpreters if you want who stand on their head and spin in circles and Use essential oils
01:33:59: To try to Make it say something. It didn't say go back to Trent read the people who were writing at the time of Trent Read what they said
01:34:11: They said what they meant and Popes afterwards said what they meant
01:34:19: Again do I think the current Pope believes any of this? No, not really But that's the whole problem
01:34:26: That's that's the issue, isn't it? So These are eternal issues they are vitally important issues and I Believe that there are people within the
01:34:41: Roman Catholic Church That I'll see in heaven because they're inconsistent with our own teaches, but I am extremely concerned
01:34:52: About anyone who would be outside the Roman Catholic Church know what the truth is and give it up to go in for that It's one thing to be in be ignorant and being consistent it's not to be outside and Give up the truth and then claim.
01:35:09: Oh, I didn't know That's big stuff That's important stuff and I'll be perfectly honest with you the only people
01:35:20: Who are actually your friends right now are the people who are talking straight to you not the people are going Oh, you're it's just so interesting to watch your journey
01:35:30: They're not your friends They're not your friends. It's important stuff.
01:35:38: Hopefully that's useful to everybody Thanks for watching the program today and As far as I know we're supposed to be back on Thursday.