J.E. Smith and the Action of the Son in Philippians 2

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So my hope my prayer for today's program is that everyone will stay Engaged and stick with me

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Once you see what's on the screen first of all, there's all sorts of folks that are all excited and let's look at Greek and Write stuff and do things like that and other folks are like, yeah,

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I'm not sure I'm gonna be following all of that It is my intention to bring everyone along because this program today

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Has been prompted by a Question that I have been asking of the other side in the current disputes going on Regarding the doctrine of inseparable operations

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Not the biblical concept of that the unity of the divine persons of the divine will things like that, but the

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Themistically oriented definition both the simplicity and in several operations

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Which flows from my assertion is flows from a concern That it finds its origin in Aristotle's views of God and Thomas was not able to fully extricate those things and therefore does not flow from Scripture, but flows from a philosophical system and In the assertion that in inseparable operations that the divine persons when they act outside of the internal relationships of begettal begotten spiration which again are

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Speculative categories, it's not like there's a verse that says these things and this is supposed to be what we are are

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Learning about and things like that, but it's a a way of differentiating between the divine persons in eternity past When acting outside of What not not add intro but add extra that every divine action is an action of all divine persons and So far that I've even had some very clearly say that you cannot

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Distinguish between the divine persons by any of the actions they do externally and It's just so painfully obvious that this is a philosophical conclusion.

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Not a biblical conclusion. No, no one even pretends To try to found it in Scripture Maybe one or two people have tried to go.

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Well, you know John 5, you know that but none of that even comes close to Overthrowing the fact that we have in some places in Scripture and there are only a certain number of places

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Where we are given insight into the relationship of Father Son and Spirit And they are some of my favorite texts of Scripture.

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I've spoken on these issues many many times. I Most of you who have heard me speak on these things

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No, I speak of you know, drawing aside the veil of eternity and things like this Where we are given these tremendous opportunities of literally hearing inter divine communication

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I mean we don't deserve any of that, but we but we have it in Scripture and So the question that I have been asking of the other side is

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Are there not? Biblically places where the divine persons do things

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That are specifically Unique to them in Relationship to the other divine person and the example that I one of the examples that I've put forward is in Philippians chapter 2 in the carmen

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Christi Right at the beginning of the hymn to Christ is to God It is said that the

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Son In contemplating He gives consideration to his equality with God the

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Father and Concludes it is not Harpogmon something to be held on to at all costs

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But the adversative of the law instead he empties himself by taking the form of a servant by being made in like men and This clearly is something that only the

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Son is doing that the the father cannot Contemplate the father's equality with the father okay, that's not possible and when the spirit contemplates

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His equality with the father or the son that's different than the son contemplating his equality with the father, right?

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And so this is a Personal action on the part of the son and It's right there in the pages of Scripture What happened was a couple days ago?

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Followed by a name J. E. Smith Doherty hyla morph on Twitter Objected to the question and I have

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Attempted as best as I possibly can To explain to mr.

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Smith and to Josh Nimi, I think that's that's what I've been told the pronunciation is sorry

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Josh if it's in the EMI or something like that But I'm sure you have to provide pronunciation all the time with spelling that like that Both gentlemen have raised an objection and I will confess that I have struggled

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Because I've explained it clearly it isn't a disputable thing. It's not even a debatable thing.

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This is basic grammar 101 But they're not getting it

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And I don't quite get it It is possible that we have here a situation where a commitment to a traditional perspective is keeping brothers from seeing

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Basic linguistic reality that's right in front of them. I would hope that's not the case

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Because certainly it many times outside the Mormon temple in Salt Lake or in in other situations

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I've encountered individuals who Could take the plain meaning of words and turn them upside down because of their commitment to a theological perspective and I hope that's not what we we have here

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But I decided it was really necessary To Put this to rest

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So we can get back to the real question Because I haven't had it. This is the only answer that's been given is to try to say that it's that the son really wasn't

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Contemplating his equality with the father and concluding that it was not something to be held on to at all costs, but rather he humbled himself and entered into human existence

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I've not been getting much as far as a response on these things and in my opinion the

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Imbalanced swing into Thomistically defined classical theology

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We're all we're all classical theologians on a basic definition of this None of us are open theists and none of us are

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Sassanians and any of the rest of this stuff What we have are is an issue of balance and what's most concerning for me is an issue of whether we will maintain a balance between the ultimate supremacy of Scripture and Confessions and creeds or where those creeds and confessions are going to become

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The lens through which Scripture itself is to be interpreted and that will eventually lead to a fundamental epistemological collapse for those who go that direction and so I think that answering these objections

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Without just dismissing the meaning of the words Is something that's necessary for the other side, and I I don't know if they can really do it

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Without exposing themselves and exposing the imbalance that we are most concerned about and so my hope is we will

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From doing this be able to take a step in the right direction so let's um, let's go to What what

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I let me explain really quickly here I'll be using the big board and boy that light right there is just I can barely see what's on the board

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We'll get around it, but you have to play with that one. Anyway, I what I have up here is

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I have of course our regular accordance Greek from Philippians chapter 2 and then what

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I did is I have a Book in my

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Library It's in it's in accordance. I think I have a similar book in Lagos that has the sentence diagramming

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Sentence diagramming if I am recalling correctly we did. Yeah, we did in second -year Greek But you got to realize in second -year

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Greek I Think we had just gotten my the compact portable and That means there was no such thing as as accordance or Lagos or anything like that at all

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So when I did I remember we did a section of James And You literally had to take pieces of paper and Use cellophane tape to tape them together and you you drew your sentence diagrams

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That way and then tried to fold them up and turn them into dr. Baird. It was It was the olden days back then but now you can you can get these sentence diagrams and Diagramming is a discipline

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Diagramming is something that you are doing every time you read any language but you're doing it subconsciously in your mind and The problem is sometimes you mess up and that's what leads to misunderstandings.

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So I have here the diagram of The text over here and so we'll be making connections between the two

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But just to start and then we'll go into it. What I'm saying is Remember what color we've got here.

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We'll go with this one for now. What I'm saying is Have this mind think this way have this thinking in you which was also in Christ Jesus who

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Eternally existing in the form of God Did not consider Ta I know it's a theo

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His equality with God the Father. He did not consider its

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Harpog mon something to be grasped something to be held on to at all costs but adversative of Allah He'd Luke and Allah Not not this but that but emptied himself reflexive pronoun emptied himself by modal circumstantial participles by Taking on the form of servant by being made in the likeness of men.

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And so the point is that Hey gay sata is an action of the

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Sun the object of that is a Infinitival phrase which is why you have taught before of it considered his equality with God He did not consider it to be a harp ogmon something to be held on to at all costs

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But the point is the Sun Engaged right there right there.

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He engaged in Consideration of his equality with God the

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Father now the word father isn't there but I Can demonstrate that that's the contextual meaning if we need to go there so the

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Sun is it is considering his equality with God the

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Father Now he concludes that is not something to be held on to at all costs

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But instead empties himself These are all divine actions the point is that is something that the

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Sun alone can do and if your theological system is not big enough for a fragment of a hymn in the early church

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That's your problem and that's the problem with your system, but there isn't any question that that's what's going on here now

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I Just did that really fast Don't save now.

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Let's go back and Let me read you the words of J.

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E. Smith, and then we'll start going a little bit more slowly through the text in response to what

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I had said He said Paul is telling us

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That the Sun did not regard slash consider He tells us about an action that the

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Sun did not perform So I ask how do you validly move from Paul's statement about what the

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Sun did not do? To a conclusion about what the Sun did do You're not answering the direct questions that it helped clarify things though you've quoted then

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Considered the equality with God as if that contradict the position of your opponents I'm asking how you define from that anything positive

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About the Sun's actions for which your opponent's position couldn't account I think the only way that would contradict a position is if the position asserted the contrary that is the

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Sun did consider or regard and In quoting the section above you left off the adverb for some reason.

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Mr. Smith thinks negative particles are adverbs Maybe he was taught to put them in a broader category like that or something like that.

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I don't know I've not left it off anywhere As we will see it's not saying what mr.

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Smith seems to think so He tells us about an action that the Sun did not consider

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That the Sun did not perform. Sorry the Sun did not perform and That would be this term right here is what we're talking about and I'm saying yes the

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Sun did consider The equality had with the father

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But he did not conclude that equality with the father was something to be held on to at all costs but the fact is the

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Sun gave consideration and When the Sun gives consideration to his equality with God the father that cannot be the same thing as the spirit considering his equality with God the father and Certainly the father cannot consider his equality with himself

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So it's it's it's really a straightforward argument and So far, this is the only response to be given to it and it fails completely

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So hopefully once we demonstrate the failure of this argument, then we can maybe have someone come along and explain

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What's going on I guess 30 minutes that travels fast.

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Okay, so Let's look at The text and at the diagram so we can understand the grammar here, okay, so Who Existing the form of God so Who and the form of God?

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Thing is up above here in the in the diagram, but we are down here who and Then our verb

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Hey gay sata For some reason this is giving me a really thick line

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I need a thinner line for this one and we'll go to a different color here. How's that? All right

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Hey gay sata. Here is our verb So this is this is important here

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This is the the primary section of the diagram that we're looking at that we can look down Blow at it later on to reflect to consider to give consideration is being done by the

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Sun All right then we see how the diagram here has a the infinitival phrase

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Ta I and I is a say you say oh so to be equal with God is

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What is being considered and then you have the descriptor this term right here our

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Pogmon and Then we have the negative particle OOK so The result of the consideration is that the equality with God is not our

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Pogmon But you have to have you have to have consideration. I Used an illustration.

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I thought it was a pretty good illustration. In fact, it is a good illustration, but it hasn't worked I said

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I considered running a half marathon with my wife but realized that would be disastrous and so I Watched another episode of Stargate sg1.

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How's that? Um same situation I Considered something that is running a half marathon wife wife just ran a half marathon.

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She's been training for it I've written half marathons to pass. I can't do it. I've got injuries and stuff that doesn't happen.

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So I considered it But I came to the conclusion that that would not be one

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So just because I came to a negative conclusion doesn't mean that I did not consider I had to consider what would be required of me to run a half marathon and Though aerobically

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I could do it. I might never walk again after I got done. So So that's the whole situation here too just because there's a negative

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We have an OOK and Allah. That's very common in Greek.

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Not this but that Just because it's negative doesn't mean that the action didn't take place the

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Sun Considered the equality he had with God the father and the conclusion was it's

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OOK Har pogmon, it's not something to be held on to at all cost. Okay Now I suppose this would be a good time to talk a little bit about her pogmon

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I was thinking back to the 1998

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I believe Evangelical Theological Society meeting,

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I think it was in Florida somewhere It's the only one I ever went to I presented a paper on a

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Jehovah's Witness topic But I had an extensive Conversation while there was one of the two positive things that happened during that with dr.

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Daniel Wallace And this is what we were discussing we spent 45 minutes staying at the

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NET table discussing this text And its syntax and its grammar and everything related to it.

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It's very enjoyable and Much of our conversation was focused upon Her pogmons

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It's in the accusative here And I Don't remember now.

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I'm assuming That I wrote the article the CRA Journal called beyond the veil of eternity after this

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I may be wrong, but You know, we're talking 25 years ago now.

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So getting the exact order of things is getting harder and harder to do anyway,

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I know that when I wrote that article I Sent it to Dan Because I specifically interacted with his position in the article and I want to make sure

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Because I was disagreeing with him that we would be coming to the that I would represent him accurately

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What is very interesting and I have not talked with Dan about this since then Obviously this is before 2016 and It is very clear that the position that Dan presented

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In his exegetical grammar at that time Would be commensurate with what is called

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EFS today Nobody was using that terminology really at that point

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And so I don't know if he's changed the position I knowing Dan I don't think he would But let me

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Let me give you his quotation that I included in my article goes like this

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After I quoted him, it is interesting Dan understands the

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Phrases taking the form of a servant and being made in the likes of men. He understands those as circumstantial modal participles as Do I?

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That is But emptied himself by taking the form of a servant by being made in the likeness of men and I was

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Really interested and I would love to find out who was in charge of the

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Philippians Review in the LSB Because the

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New American Standard doesn't have by but the LSB now does in fact could

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I? Provide you here here is Here is the translation I provided in my article many many years ago, and you'll see it where how this comes out

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Here's how I translate it You must have the same mindset among yourselves that was in Christ Jesus who although he eternally existed in the very form of God Did not consider that equality had with God the

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Father something to be held on to at all costs But instead he made himself nothing By taking on the very form of a slave by being made in human likeness and having entered into human existence

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He humbled himself by becoming obedient at the point of death. Even the death one dies on a cross

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Because of this God the Father exalted him to the highest place Bestowed on him the name which is above every name

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So at the mention of the exalted name of Jesus everyone who is in heaven on earth and under the earth Bows the knee and every tongue confesses

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Jesus Christ is Lord all to the glory of God the Father so there was my Translation of that I can

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I can assure you That When this came out there were there was no one banging on my door

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To have me kicked out of the Reform Baptist movement it was widely read and accepted and used and I was on a

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Lutheran Radio program and the the host said

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I think it's the best translation I've ever seen of Philippians 2 I think that's that brings it out the best of any so it was

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It was well received at the time. It would not be now Not because I've changed but because others have so going back to Harpog Moss here there are

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There is a at an active and a passive means Of being able you know

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I think most people be able to open that door without squeaking But only only only all we would do that Sorry, we have we have a studio audience, and I had just run across a picture actually of this gentleman

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Sacked out of my couch in in in my house when I was doing a major Cycling event long long ago, so Yeah, yeah, anyway

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Anyhow what we're talking about Moses was in the bull rushes, and so okay. Yeah, Harpog Moss Harpog Mon The there is a passive and an active way of understanding this term so you can understand it as Seizing for something trying to grab something

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Or you can understand it as holding on to something that you already have now you will find

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All sorts of argumentation I started reading books on the

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Carmen Christian seminary in the 1980s and they come from a lot of different perspectives and the less

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Conservative a person is the wider the possibilities of interpretation become because you don't have to work with the stricture that scripture is consistent with itself and So there's a lot of interpretations out

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Now what's interesting is those that would take the idea of grasping for something such as the

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New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses Do that to try to deny the deity of Christ because Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the deity of Christ and therefore they

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You know, the New World Translation says he did not give consideration to a seizure Namely, he should be equal to God.

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I think that's the NWT rendering. I know it's did not give consideration to a seizure which Just flows so nice and easily

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Anyway, that was one thing the NWT Translators were not concerned about is whether it flowed at all.

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So But then there are Orthodox who would take that viewpoint and Read it as consistent with an

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EFS understanding. I Think that's what Dan Wallace does. Let me give you his exact words

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Here's how I put it in the article he holds a view that while form of God Emphasizes the deity of Christ in no uncertain term hence ontological equality with the

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Father the phrase equality with God Should be understood to refer to something different to the hierarchical relationship of father and son

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Therefore he believes the passage is saying that while eternally God the son did not grasp at a functional

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Equality with the father. He writes quote although Christ was truly God more faith a you

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Two things resulted number one. He did not attempt to outrank the father as it were compared

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John 1428 for a similar thought the father is greater than I am and number two

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Instead he submitted himself to the father's will even the point of death on a cross

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It was thus not Christ deity that compelled his incarnation and passion, but his obedience end quote so as I said, this is more of a

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EFS understanding or at least more consistent with an EFS understanding and I guess

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I need to say it again because I keep running into people that are being Lied to about me, but I don't hold the

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EFS and never have Anyone tells you that I do they don't know what they're talking about or they're desperately dishonest or both.

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That's a possibility, too But that's that's the perspective that's there and so I interacted with that I Said however, there are two reasons.

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I prefer the interpretation given above first This is a poetic section terms are used in poetry hymns in ways that transcend the strictly grammatical usage one would find in normal prose

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Context while usage another context might favor the active sense of grasping at something

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One does not already possess in this passage The overall context has to take precedence as well as note above poetic license is already present in this early hymn second while Wallace's Interpretation still presents the element of humility.

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It focuses solely upon the humility shown in the Messiah's death on the cross The element of humility in the incarnation is still present

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But I believe the intended contrast is weakened for the excite exhortations Philippians They voluntarily laid aside late lay aside the rights that are theirs so as to serve others

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Christ voluntarily makes himself nothing and the emphasis is upon the freedom of that act

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That was my response in the article 20 25 years ago now So if you

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Go to the commentaries unfortunately a great deal of time is going to be dedicated to that discussion of active and passive uses of heart

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Pogmas our Pogmon and Things like that not nearly as much in my experience is going to be

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Dedicated to the fact that this whole thing is a sermon illustration have this mind and you which is also in Christ Yes, this is in the context of exhorting the

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Church of Philippi to act in humility of mind to have certain rights But to lay those rights aside in the service of others

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That's what this is all about and that's the ultimate I think the ultimate priority in understanding the entirety of the

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Carmen Christie and context certainly shows that so Back to the diagram so the

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Sun Considered the equality had with God the

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Father Not to be our Pogmon something to be grasped at all costs then

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You have a law right here. So let's look at a law and Luke is the negative particle

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In the Greek language very often you will have not this but Adversative form

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But something else so he did not consider his equality a thing to be held on to at all costs but he emptied himself

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And again, I just emphasize the this is a reflexive pronoun So he was not emptied, but he emptied himself

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I'm not saying the father's not involved the incarnation he is or the spirits are involved incarnation he is but in different ways in unique ways in beautiful way and If your

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Aristotelian ism causes you to change payout on to out on and Get rid of the reflexive

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It's the whole thing that we're complaining about and saying you can't do that. That's that's wrong

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But the point is here you have these not this but that So as the result of this consideration

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The Sun concludes that his equality with God the father is not harp on But instead he empties himself and then here's your participles

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By taking the form of a servant same term morphine here more faith. They you morphine doodoo

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Taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men This is the incarnation the positive

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Addition of that perfect human nature. It was interesting because there's another area where things have changed quickly

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Is I had Here's here's something else that Dan had said where we agreed

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And it's talking about the means the incarnation the biggest difficulty was seeing Labone taking as means is that emptying is normally an act of subtraction not addition

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But the imagery should not be made to walk on all fours as an early hymn It would be expected to have a certain poetic license

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The Philippians were told not to puff themselves up with empty glory Because Christ was an example of one who had emptied his glory if this connection is intentional

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Then the Carmen Christie has the following force Do not elevate yourselves on empty glory

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But follow the example of Christ who though already elevated on God's level Emptied his glory by veiling it in humanity

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To which I continued so the means of the kenosis is the addition of a human nature the veiling of the divine in the creaturely

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This is important to understand for many interpret Paul to mean that Christ abandons the form of God Rather than seeing this as an addition of the human nature to the eternal divine nature that was

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Christ It is this addition that veils the form of God While there are certainly many who see his passage teaching that Christ did indeed lay aside the form of God The words of Paul do not present such a concept

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Wrote this long before people started lying about me about it, but that's because they don't do their homework.

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So there you go So we are emphasizing and must emphasize as Dan Wallace emphasized

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The fact that he continues to be in the the form of God, but he takes on the form of a servant and being made in the likeness of men and Therefore he humbles himself.

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There it is again with the Reflexive pronoun he humbles himself become a beating point of death

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Get this out of the way here But not today staru even the cross death

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Even the cross death. It's very blunt and straightforward so Here in the diagram is our adversity of Allah here.

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You have the other actions being taken here and the the diagram seems to agree with My understanding here because it puts labone and an ominous

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In the same way by being he humbled himself how by taking on a form of sir by being made like cement and this is the

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Opposite this is this is still the result of his consideration

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He considered that equality it's not something to be held on to at all cost but Incarnation incarnation, that's what he does so in answer to Mr.

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Smith Paul is telling us that the Sun did not regard consider He tells us about an action.

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The Sun did not perform. That is simply not true. And hopefully we all can see that now I hope mr.

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Smith will go. Yes. I was wrong. You're right. He did Hey gay

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Sata, but the conclusion of that action was

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Luke our pogmon Ta I and I it's a fail

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So the quality how the father was not something to be held on to that's the result of the consideration

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It was almost and you know, maybe he just didn't express himself clearly even though I kept going back

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Explaining it and he kept doubling down But if you simply said if you simply had

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Luke, hey gay Sata period move on Okay, then it would say he did not give consideration but it doesn't tell you what he didn't give a consideration up It would not tell you how he evaluated his equality with God the father

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It would not give you the basis for why he then engages in the act of self emptying by the incarnation

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He would leave everything unanswered So when someone says well, but but ooks right there, yeah, but you've got to allow it to be in the sentence

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And it is it is saying This equality with God that that that infinitival phrase is not

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Something to be held on to at all cost That's what it's functioning. That's straightforward.

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That's there's no other way of looking at it. You can't I mean unless you're going to You know go the

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New World Translation way the Aryan way something like that but that's the only way you can read it in a in an

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Orthodox sense is To understand that that's how it's functioning here, okay

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So hopefully We have we've we've covered things here, let me see if there's anything else in So I asked how do you validly move from Paul's statement about what the

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Sun did not do? To a conclusion about what the Sun did do. Can we all see where the problem is now? I'm not going from what the

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Sun did not do The conclusion of his Consideration was that his equality with God the

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Father was not something to be held on to at all costs That's the conclusion But the fact is this is a positive action on the part of the

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Sun That is unique to the Sun and cannot be done by the Father or the

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Spirit That does not result in tritheism. You folks have just been seemingly so quickly um

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Trained To come up with these responses without thinking them through this is biblical material here.

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Okay, and What we're gonna see what you see later on down here

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I could scroll down you can see it But the Carmen Christie is going to identify Jesus as Yahweh it's going to use the text from Isaiah 45 and and apply it directly to Christ in the context of The Father and the

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Son and the revelation of God's triune glory So there's there's no introduction of multiple gods or anything else

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The fact the Father Son Spirit are identified as Yahweh You can't you can't break that you can't get outside of that.

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You don't have three different Yahweh's or anything like that But you have to you end up fundamentally gutting

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The richness of the relationship of Father Son and Spirit and the richness of the incarnation itself when you insist on utilizing

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Philosophical categories that Paul and the early church are not functioning They're not functioning on those those ground at all

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Okay so So How do you move from Paul's statement what the son did not do it's not son did not do it's what the son did do

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So I'm not moving from that statement. I'm simply saying this text teaches that the son

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Considered his equality with God the Father and made decisions Based upon that consideration first decision not to be held on to at all costs second decision emptied himself

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By taking on the form of service. That's what the text says

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You can stay on your head. You can spin around you can you can get a tonsil cut and and wear

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Dominican robes Not going to change anything It's right there in Greek.

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It's right there in English by the way, some people were asking about some of the translational some different translations and the

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The King James thought it not robbery obviously, you know robbery

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I Mean that's in the that's in the semantic range of hard Pogmos Something to be deceased or something

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So robbery if you're not supposed to be doing because you could have a you could have a positive Seizing at something that's not illegal.

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It wouldn't have to be robbery so it's a It's an interesting choice, but notice it says thought it not robbery

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So that's their act. That's their actual translation of our Pogmon. Hey, guess I thought thought it not robbery to be equal with God I don't know.

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It's a little difficult It's not quite as smooth maybe but at least it

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It is interesting That the knot is being directly attached to her

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Pogmon Rather than did not think as in he didn't engage in activity that's the that's the that's the fundamental error that Smith is made is

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The text is saying that the son did not engage in the activity of hey gaze. I thought no he did

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It's the conclusion of That activity that is in view and it says not something to be grasped or held on to at all cost

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So yeah Translations try to find ways around Rather stilted

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English renderings And every trend every translation committee has to struggle with that how how literally are you gonna be how far are you willing to go to try to Smooth something out because the more you smooth it out

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The more you may be leaving something out or inserting something in That isn't there.

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That's that is one of the issues that we that we have to deal with in in something like this

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So I Really hope even though we've we've had to use I've tried to make sure

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To explain each of the Greek words when I'm using it as to what it's being translated as And I want everyone to understand

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What's going on in the text so John do you get it?

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Did you get it? You're multitasking. Okay. All right, because I figured if you get it

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That means I did it well Rich is telling me to be nice to someone.

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Can you believe that? How does that work? I'm not even sure how that works. Anyway, I honestly seriously seriously

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Repetitio mater memory. Yeah repetitions mother memory. Yeah, you go watch it again and you'll you'll get the second time around Um These Philosophical and theological debates

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There are there are some people who engage in them just simply because they really engage love engaging in them and I am

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NOT one of I think that if you're going to invest your life energy in Debate and dialogue the ultimate goal must be

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The benefit of the church or you're wasting your time you're wasting your time and believe you me if we were in this ministry for position and money and funding and networking

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I Wouldn't be engaging this topic at all It has not been fun to be lied about and gossiped about and Cancelled by people you thought were your good friends that has not been enjoyable

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And Then to see that not a you know, they would never I Cannot imagine any

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Greek professor that would walk in there and say no, that's all wrong. I can't Can't see it

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Even if they take a different interpretation, maybe an EFS interpretation Well, yeah, if you understand this is yeah that makes sense

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I mean on the issue of J. E. Smith's claim that claim has been refuted

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It's that's not that's not a debatable issue just on a linguistic ground the Sun engaged in the action

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That's we've demonstrated that so that's that's done but the the result of that What that means what that must mean for our theology and whether we will and whether our theological conclusion come from the text or Whether our theological systems are going to filter what can come from the text is what

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I am most concerned about Because I am seeing people Who are so dedicated?

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To a philosophical set of metaphysical assumptions, which You know fundamentally

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Aristotle was wrong on a on the whole the whole basic nature of the universe okay, so he was so his

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God was nowhere near the God of the Bible and Despite Thomas's great intellect you can't fix defects like that But when those metaphysical

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Constraints End up appearing in the interpretation of the biblical text.

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That is where sola scriptura die That's where it died and I've seen that for decades

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The people that I'm arguing with have not seen that for decades and Have not been dealing with that and just seemingly are not willing to listen and to learn in the process so There is the

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There is the text. There is the argument. It's right there in front of you and So laying that aside.

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I simply want to ask My to mystically minded brothers

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How do you deal let me put this way why Should any minister of the gospel standing in the pulpit on this coming

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Sunday that opens this text Does their homework

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Goes through all of this You don't have to project it up on a screen But you understand it so you can communicate it to your people so you can handle the word of right

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That's why you do the work of exegesis So that you can handle the word of right show the honor to it as God's Word, right?

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Why? Would any minister standing before his people opening up this text this coming

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Sunday? Why would I have to introduce my people to an even further from the inspired words of Scripture concept to try to explain this text to keep it consistent with my

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Theological system and I refer to the doctrine of appropriation Why would

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I have to add even something further that has nothing to do with a Paul's saying to the Philippians? just to maintain a system and It doesn't actually maintain the system simply saying that there are

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There are activities that God engages in that it's more appropriate to refer to the father as the fountainhead of the divine decree and the son as the accomplisher of redemption and the spirit is the applier and The only reason this happens because they're not you can't actually tell anything about Father son spirit by their actions because they're all the same actions because I so in several operations and so You can't ignore the fact that the

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Bible actually does it though? And so well, it's the concept of appropriation

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So what we're doing is is the Bible will apply these things to the individual persons to show us more clearly the internal relationships between the divine person

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That's what the Bible says we're supposed to be going for that's somehow going to I thought it was growing in the grace and knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ and sanctification stuff like that, but I am absolutely convinced that the health and future of the church is

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Dependent upon the people of God being taught to listen

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Obey and love God's Word Not our philosophical systems that we use to try to fit everything into nice neat little package that fits our system and End up leaving out some of the most beautiful elements

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That are found in Scripture itself. I Because it might be understood in a non to mystic fashion and I say a pox on you you will not last long

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This will not end. Well still calling you my brother.

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You may not me But I'm still calling you my brother. I'm just trying to warn you About where this is gonna lead and oh, you're all become

53:40

Roman Catholics. I didn't say that There are a lot of a lot of places to stop on the way to Canterbury or to Constantinople or Before you cross the

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Tiber River but what I do know is that when you

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Engage the text the way we did over the past hour. You can do so consistently believing

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In solo scriptura and tota scriptura when you stop believing those things you will not be able

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To continue to do what we just did you will have to go another direction and That will be a major problem that will be a major problem

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Well, I Am sure that there are many people Who look in my experience?

54:54

the vast majority people that I have spoken to who have converted Roman Catholicism and I have spoken to more of those people

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Than all of my critics combined There's no question about there really is

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The people I've talked to did not start out going that direction and In fact when they woke up that first morning realizing

55:16

I really don't believe this stuff anymore they had been on that path for a long time and didn't realize it and it wasn't anybody to warn him and One of my concerns is some of you all you may you may stay you're you're so Tried and true you'll stay in your reformed

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Baptist Presbyterian Clothes forever

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But in the process of being in those clothes and taking the positions you take you may help others to get out without even realizing without even recognizing

55:56

Without wanting to do it, but you might end up doing it and all because you just won't listen to warning

56:03

You won't won't go. Yeah, you know We've got to start first and foremost With what the text actually says and derive our beliefs there that's vitally important I Think I have covered

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Everything I wanted to cover. I was a little bit concerned and I you know, what's gonna happen is afterwards. I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Go oh there was that no there was that But hopefully with some level of clarity.

56:34

I've been able to communicate to you. What's going on here? Hopefully you are just as amazed as I hopefully will always be at this ancient fragment of a hymn of the early church

56:49

At what it says, but sometimes you have to dig down when someone comes up with an idea that honestly,

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I had never heard anyone come up with before and That was what J. E. Smith did with nope.

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The Sun did not perform this action Nope, the Sun did and we have demonstrated that now and hopefully with clarity.

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So with that Thank you very much for watching the dividing line today. There's lots of stuff going on the world lots of stuff

57:17

We could have been commenting upon but once in a while, you just got to dig into the text and and take care of business