July 18, 2017 Show with Jonathan Master on “Assurance: How Can Fallible Men Know We Are Saved?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of July 2017.

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In the first epistle of John chapter 5 verse 13, we read, These things

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I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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But how can fallible men know we are saved? Well, we're going to be talking about assurance today with Jonathan Master, who is a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron, professor of theology and dean of the

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School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania, editorial director for the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and host of the Alliance podcast Theology on the

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Go. He's also author of A Question of Consensus, The Doctrine of Assurance After the

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Westminster Confession, and we are discussing the subject of assurance, as I said, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jonathan Master.

02:18

Thanks Chris, thanks Buzz, good to be back on with you. And as he just mentioned, in studio we have the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor as my co -host. And it's good to be here. And it's great to have you. It's even better when my mic is turned up, yes.

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Better for you, not for anybody else. If anybody would like to join us with a question for our guest,

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Jonathan Master on assurance, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. If you need to remain anonymous for any particular reason, perhaps you are doubting your own salvation, you don't want anybody to know about it, or you're doubting somebody else, the salvation of somebody else that you know and love, perhaps even your pastor, you're wondering if he's saved, and you want to remain anonymous, well obviously we would grant that request.

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And in fact, if it's dealing with somebody else, we would insist that that be the case. And otherwise, please though, if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of And that email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Well, Jonathan, there's been something remarkable going on here at Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

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There are new listeners contacting me nearly every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, people

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I've never heard from before, and there seems to have been a real breakthrough in our listenership expanding, at least that they're contacting me.

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Some of these new listeners are really, should I say, new contactors, or if that's a grammatically correct phrase, are people who have contacted me for the first time but have listened for quite a while, and others have just discovered the program and have fallen in love with it.

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But because of the fact that there are new listeners that have never heard you on the program, why don't you let our listeners know about the

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Cairn University, since even though, I should say, we've already had you do that before, there may be those that have never heard of you or Cairn.

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Yeah, I'm glad to always talk about Cairn. So Cairn University has been around for a little over 100 years now, and it offers a wide variety of majors.

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It's a Christian university just outside of Philadelphia in Bucks County in Langhorne, Pennsylvania, and as I said, we offer a wide number of degrees, but every student here also takes 30 hours, almost a major's worth, of Bible and theology.

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So in addition to whatever it is they're studying, some students are here to study theology, but in addition to that, the students who are here to study something else and major in something else are studying

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Bible and theology. So we also have graduate programs, a Master of Arts, Master of Divinity, and a

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THM in the School of Divinity here, but the bulk of our students are undergrads, and so Bible and theology kind of infuses all their classes.

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So yeah, privileged to be here, and we always love meeting prospective students, talking to people who are students or graduates who are scattered really throughout the world.

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And the website for Cairn University is cairn .edu, that's c -a -i -r -n dot e -d -u, and now

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I'll let our listeners know something about the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, for those of our listeners who are discovering that for the first time as well, and your podcast,

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Theology on the Go. Yeah, so the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals essentially grew out of the ministry of James Montgomery Boyce, and it's a coalition of pastors and scholars and churchmen who hold to the historic creeds and confessions of the

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Reformed faith, and we seek to proclaim biblical doctrine in order to foster a

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Reformed awakening in today's church. So people from many different denominations, but committed to the creedal tradition of the church, and praying and working towards the end of a

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Reformation, really a rediscovery of the sufficiency of Scripture and of the truths of the

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Reformation. My podcast in particular is called Theology on the Go, usually about 10 to 15 minutes, we take one issue and one guest and I interview them, and we talk about it, and so it's a good way to introduce yourself to theological topics that you might not know about.

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We try to really make sure we define all the terms and make everything as clear as possible, and you kind of listen to it on your commute or on your job or you're walking your dog.

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That can be accessed through iTunes and also via placefortruth .org,

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which is an Alliance website that has all kinds of helpful articles and resources for Christian people.

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So to find out more, you can go to alliancenet .org, that's sort of the big Alliance site, or if you want to go to placefortruth .org,

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that's where you can access Theology on the Go, or like I said, via iTunes. Yeah, I'll be mentioning this later, but God willing,

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I am going to be at the next local Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals event here in the

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Pennsylvania area, God willing, going to be at the Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown on the theme,

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For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan in the classical

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Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, a mighty fortress, and speakers that will be on the roster there,

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God willing, are Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant, and that's

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November 17th through the 18th, and if anybody wants to join us at that conference, go to alliancenet .org,

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as our guest Jonathan had just mentioned, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology, but we'll be repeating that later on today during the broadcast.

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Well, this is certainly an issue that divides Brethren in Christ.

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You have those that believe that since God is the one that initiated and actually created new life in us, he will certainly be the finisher of our faith as well.

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He will preserve us until we leave this earth and enter glory, not that we would be preserved in perfection, but he will preserve us that we would not utterly apostatize or that we would abandon

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Christ, although during the journey many

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Christians have fallen but have always, if they have been truly regenerate, gotten up by the grace of God and repented of the sin they fell into, and their lives are marked with repentance.

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And then you have, on the other end of the spectrum, you have those that believe that a genuinely born -again believer may indeed lose his or her salvation, and some would even go as far as calling the

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Doctrine of Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints, otherwise known as Eternal Security, they would call that the

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Doctrine of Demons, some of them would go even that far. And, of course, we even have two close friends who battled over issues like this from the past,

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George Whitfield and John Wesley, who are on the opposite ends of the theological spectrum on this issue, but still considered themselves to be brothers in Christ.

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And, in fact, George Whitfield requested John Wesley pray at his funeral when he passed, and that's eventually what did occur.

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But this is an important issue, is it not? And even though we can forgive our brothers and be patient with them for having an erroneous view, it's still very serious, isn't it?

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Well, it is, and I think there are two aspects of it, and you mentioned both of them in your introduction. One is the promises, the very real promises we have in Scripture that Christians will be preserved if you're a genuine believer, that you'll persevere to the end.

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I think that's an incredibly important doctrine, and, in fact, is kind of at the heart of some of the things that Jesus himself says about our salvation.

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I think the other issue that's related to it is the notion of assurance. What's your...

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can you know that that is true of you? So there's the promise itself that this will happen, and then there's the knowledge, the assurance that believers can have that, in fact, they are genuinely saved.

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Yes, and because of the different theological understandings of of the perseverance and preservation of the saints, those who either believe in it or oppose it, you're going to have a different understanding of assurance.

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There are evangelicals who believe that they cannot ever know, on this earth, with certainty, that they are saved.

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Roman Catholics will even call that presumptive...

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the sin of presumption is called in Roman Catholicism. And, of course, we would not view those that are dogmatically faithful to Trent, to the actual dogmas of Roman Catholicism, we would not view them as brothers in Christ.

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Although we know that there are Catholics who are saved by his grace, but it's not because of their dogma, it's in spite of it.

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But this is an interesting issue because one of the hardest questions,

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I think, that a person who believes we cannot lose our salvation has to face is from the

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Arminian or Roman Catholic who says to us, well, if you are a sinner and you are fallible and you make mistakes every day and you don't know infallibly everything that is taught in the scripture, how could you possibly be certain of your own heart when the scriptures themselves say that the heart is desperately wicked who can know it?

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In fact, there are even Roman Catholics who will say in a rather mocking fashion that we are popes over our own souls because we claim to have infallible knowledge over our eternal destiny.

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But if you could comment on that. Yeah, a couple things I would say. First of all, you're absolutely right about the

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Roman Catholic doctrine. It's very clear in the canons of Trent.

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In fact, you know, I could sort of quote chapter and verse for you where it says, if anyone saith that he will for certain of an absolute and infallible certainty have the great gift of perseverance into the end, let him be anathema.

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So in other words, they're saying that anyone who says that, in fact, they know that they're going to be saved is cursed.

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The other thing that's really interesting, kind of a resting quote, I think, comes from the Reformation period. The personal theologian to Pope Clement VIII, a cardinal, said that the greatest of all

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Protestant heresies is the doctrine of assurance. So it's no small thing.

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And you're absolutely right that the Roman Catholic Church, in its official teaching, teaches that it's not something that anyone can possess in any meaningful way.

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And so it's a dividing line for sure. And yet, I think the

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Bible teaches that there is a possibility of having assurance. And this is, of course, what the

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Reformers taught that was so hated in many respects by the

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Roman Catholic hierarchy. I think the book of Hebrews teaches this clearly. Second Peter 1, Peter talks about, you can know these things for sure.

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If these things are yours in increasing measure, you can know. Romans 8 talks about the Spirit's testimony in our hearts.

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You quoted at the beginning, 1 John 5, what a powerful verse that is, where John says, these things are written that you might know, that you have eternal life.

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And so yeah, contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, and as you said, in fact, the teaching of some

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Protestants as well, the Bible indicates that we can know that we are believers.

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Amen. Well, let's go through some of the biblical reasons why you would even make a statement like that.

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Because even though we are Reformed, all three of us, both you,

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I, and my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, are Reformed, we do believe that there is such a thing as false assurance.

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We are adamantly opposed to those who would deny what has become nicknamed

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Lordship Salvation, who believe that a person, just by mere virtue of some kind of mental assent or recitation of a prayer, will be guaranteed eternal life, even if that person immediately after making his profession returns to the pig trough, as it were, and just remains in unrepentant wickedness, even overtly and scandalous wickedness, and even atheism and apostasies of all kinds, until they die, there are evangelicals who say, well,

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I remember when Brother So -and -So walked the aisle, so we don't really have to worry about whether or not he's going to hell or not.

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I mean, that's absolutely not only unbiblical, but isn't it anti -biblical and even absurd?

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I agree. I mean, so the first thing I would want to say with respect to assurance is that we can know, but then the second thing

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I would want to say right on the heels of that is that the Bible warns us about the danger of false assurance.

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I mean, the most, I think, maybe obvious passage where we see this is in Matthew chapter 7, where Jesus says, not everyone who says to me,

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Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father, on that day many will say to me,

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Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

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And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, apart from me, you workers of lawlessness. And we see there that the

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Lord is telling us that on the last day, there will be those who thought of themselves as believers, thought of themselves as connected with him based on the things that they had done, or, you know, as you said, maybe a hand that was raised, or a prayer that was prayed, and he says,

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I never knew you. We see this throughout the Old Testament with the nation of Israel. Again and again, they're relying on things like their ethnicity, and the prophets remind them, no, this is no guarantee of your genuine salvation.

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So, exactly right. There is a possibility of firm assurance, and the Bible gives us that, it holds that out there, and we can preach that and have that, and yet there is also the reality that you can have false assurance, and sadly,

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I'm sure there are many people in churches who have that kind of assurance. They walk down an aisle once, they recited a prayer after someone told them to, and then they're told, now you never need to think about this again, because you're now saved forever, and that is false assurance.

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So, would you say that although we are fallible people who err constantly and sin daily, would you say that although we do not have infallible assurance, that we have sufficient assurance?

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Would that be the way we could describe this? I think we can for certain.

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I mean, you know, there are a couple different things that the Bible tells us to look to.

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I think one of the things the Bible tells us to look to is our lives, and, you know, again, this takes us back to 2

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Peter 1, where he gives these, this list of qualities of a

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Christian life, we might think of them as the fruit of the Spirit, and he says, listen, if you see this in your life, then you can have assurance.

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I think the Bible also talks about the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. See, that's the thing, Chris, if you talk about it just in terms of what we can know, that's leaving out the fact that the

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Bible says genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and Paul says in Romans 8, the

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Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and this is an inward testimony of the

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Spirit, and then if we were to look at a book like 1 John, there are a number of different tests that are given in 1

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John, one of which is, has to do with our behavior, one of which has to do with our love for God and our love for others, and then one of which has to do with our belief in God's Son.

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Jesus said, the one who comes to me I will not cast out, and I will raise him up on the last day. So the

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Bible gives us three different angles of approach to this question, but they all are based on the same assumption, which is, yes, we can know that we are children of God.

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We can know that we are genuine believers who will be raised up on the last day.

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Why don't you go through those three approaches? Yeah, the three that I would mention, just to sort of restate them, would be one,

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I think we can and should look at our lives, and that's not infallible, and any of us who have any sense of ourselves know that there are many ways in which sin still has a very significant hold on us, and we are still sinners.

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Simultaneously justified sinner, Martin Luther said. But nonetheless, with that said, we do need to look at our lives again.

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Second Peter 1, he lists out characteristics and then says, at the end of it all, if these things are yours and are increasing, then you can know that your calling and election is confirmed.

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So one would be our lives. The second would be the Spirit's testimony to us, and this is sort of difficult because it can be looked at as subjective, but again, for that I would look at Romans 8, where Paul says in verses 15 and 16, the

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Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are children of God. And then thirdly, the third test

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I would look at is sort of, you might call it the test of belief. You can sort of look at yourself and say, who am

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I trusting in for my salvation? And we have promises from Jesus that if we come to him in faith and we are trusting in him, leaning on him alone for our salvation, for our right standing, that in fact, we can be confident that he will make good on his promises to us.

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And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Well yeah, you know, I think a lot of the problem though is, if people are thinking that I am born again because I prayed for prayer or whatever, there is always that room for doubt.

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Like, well, what if I weren't genuine enough when I said that, you know? You have to not understand how you got your salvation in the first place,

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I think, to really get into doubting it. Well, that's a great point, Buzz.

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And I mean, I think a lot of us who grew up in the church or have been in the church for a long time have had that experience.

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We think, did I really mean it? And you're exactly right. That's asking the wrong question, because meaning it or really raising your hand with authority wasn't the issue to begin with.

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And so we can tie ourselves up in knots on that. And I think the sound advice to give to yourself or others at that point is, look to Jesus Christ.

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Look to Him. Trust in Him. You're looking at that point, when you're asking the question the way you framed it, you're looking at what you did.

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And the whole point is, it's not what you did, it's about what Christ has done. Well, we have some listeners already that have questions for you,

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Jonathan. We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and I'm enlarging the font on Gordy's email because it's microscopic and I can't read it.

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He says, Catholic Answers Apologist Tim Staples has stated regarding this text, and I'm assuming he means the one that we mentioned earlier, 1

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John 5 .13, these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life, 1

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John 5 .13. Tim Staples of Catholic Answers says,

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Certainty of our salvation is not absolute, because according to 1 John 1 verses 8 -9, unconfessed sin will not be forgiven.

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How would you refute this obvious twisting of Scripture? Well, it depends what you mean by absolute.

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I do think it is the case that Christians can go through periods, real

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Christians I'm talking about, real, genuine believers who will, in fact, be saved and are saved.

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Real Christians can go through periods of doubt where their assurance is diminished. So if what you mean is that there can be an ebb and flow in a real

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Christian's life, in terms of their assurance, that's true. But with respect to 1

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John 1 .9 and, you know, unconfessed sin being unforgiven, no,

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I think that's not talking in 1 John 1 .9 about our ultimate salvation.

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John there in 1 John 1 .9 is talking about the Christian life and our need to confess our sins to the

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Lord, but as a Christian, we're confessing that sin.

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So it's not a question of confession in order that I might now be able to get into heaven because I've remembered to confess this sin.

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It's confession because we have a relationship with Him as our Father and we're coming to Him through the

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Lord Jesus Christ already as believers. You know, even the most ardent Roman Catholic has got to understand that the human mind cannot possibly remember all of our sins if they truly believe that man is as sinful as even they would claim he is.

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I mean, it's ridiculous to think that... No, that's exactly right,

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Chris. It's no way. If our salvation, yours or mine, was dependent on us remembering everything that we had done to violate

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God's law, many things of which, by the way, we are not even aware, then we would be in very...

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well, we would have no hope. Right, and of course, as Jesus points out, that the biggest mistake of the

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Pharisees, or one of them, is that they were looking purely at physical and more scandalous sins seen by the eye and heard with the ears and so on, rather than the mind, as Jesus pointed out, that even lusting after a woman is adultery.

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Right, yep. No, exactly, and if it was dependent on you and me to sort out everything that's...

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every thought that's ever crossed through our minds that is not compatible with who

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God is and what he's revealed to us of himself and his word, we would have no hope.

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We're going to a break right now, and if anybody would like to join us, we still have a couple of people waiting for their questions to be asked and answered, and we will get to you as soon as possible,

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God willing. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

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Jonathan Master, and he is Professor of Theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

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We are discussing assurance. How can fallible men know we are saved?

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And we have another question from Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and I'm enlarging her email as well because it's microscopic.

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And Rose says, I just lost a friend yesterday, a young woman who was only 28 but had suffered most of her life with chronic illness.

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I have full assurance of my own salvation, but I find that the lack of assurance that I have in the salvation of others is very disconcerting, and such is the case of my dear friend.

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How do I find peace, or do I find peace, when a loved one passes, yet I don't know absolutely if they are saved or were saved?

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That's an excellent question. That's something that I think eventually, the older we get, every one of us as Christians is going to eventually face this dilemma, and in fact, might face it numerous times throughout our lives, especially as I said, the older we get, the more people we will watch depart from this earth, just because that is the natural progress of life.

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As we grow older, the more people that we know are going to pass on. So if you could answer

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Rose's very excellent question. Yeah, Rose, that's an outstanding question, and a very difficult one.

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It relates not only to friends who have died, but also, it's a pastoral question within the

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Church. You have to assess people's spiritual condition as best you can, and this is an area where we have to admit real fallibility.

36:01

The Bible doesn't guarantee that you or I can know what someone else's spiritual condition is.

36:09

The Bible does give us that confidence for ourselves, but not for others.

36:14

So, you know, there is a certain sense in which I can't tie that up neatly with a bow, except to say that I would look at some of the same kinds of things that the

36:26

Bible tells us to look for in our own lives. So perhaps, Rose, with your friend, you might comfort yourself if, in fact, she did profess to you that she was trusting in Christ for her salvation, that she was leaning on Him for her standing with God.

36:48

You can, I think, draw some comfort from, perhaps, fruit that you saw born in her life by the

36:54

Holy Spirit that might, again, give you that kind of hope.

37:00

And then you can look as well at, you know, what it was that she might have articulated about her own experience with the

37:10

Lord. And so again, that's a difficult question. It's not too distant from the question that pastors have to ask themselves when they receive someone into the

37:21

Church. They have to say, is this a genuine profession of faith? And so we just do our best to use the biblical guideline and the biblical grid with that.

37:33

But the other thing I would say is this. In the overall scheme of things at this point, you need to remind yourself of the goodness of God and of the sovereignty of God, and lean into Him in, perhaps, a more significant way for comfort and for strength.

37:55

So, can't fully answer it, Rose, but that's perhaps the best advice

38:02

I could give. You know, it's interesting how those who would insist we cannot know that, or have even assurance that, we are saved.

38:13

And yet, the Apostle Paul, in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, starting with verse 13, comforts

38:22

Christians with at least a sufficient assurance.

38:27

It's not infallible when we are speaking of other people especially, but he gives these people, these

38:33

Christians, a sufficient assurance that those who they knew, or at least had heard of, who were

38:42

Christians who perished, Paul comforts them with these words.

38:47

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

38:56

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

39:04

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the

39:11

Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

39:24

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the

39:30

Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

39:37

Now as I said, even though we are fallible humans, and we sin, and we err, and we are not omniscient, we still obviously are to have some kind of a sufficient assurance, and not to be plagued with terror and fear, that our

39:53

Christian brethren are lost, or that we're not to be traumatized by doubt.

40:03

We are to take a hold in the fact that if they did believe in Christ, and that he rose again, that we will meet them again one day.

40:11

Isn't that true? Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, if we are...

40:17

that's great comfort that we can take when Christian brothers and sisters fall asleep in the

40:23

Lord, or that's the language Paul uses, but we could say they die. That is the comfort and hope that we have, so that we don't grieve like those who have no hope.

40:35

So you're absolutely right. When Christian brothers and sisters die, those are the kinds of passages we need to be reminding ourselves of consistently.

40:43

And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Along these lines, though, I'm sure that you've had the experiences

40:49

I have, either in dealing with individuals, or even as a result of preaching the gospel, where somebody will come up and say,

40:57

I'm not sure I'm saved. They are doubting their salvation. I know traditionally, we take them to 1

41:03

John 5, 13. And I've seen this happen so many times where they'll read it, or have them read it.

41:10

These things, you know, I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you might know you have eternal life. Now, do you believe in the name of the

41:16

Son of God? And of course, if they're concerned at all about their salvation, they're going to say, well, yes, of course I do. Oh, well, then you're saved.

41:22

Then you have no reason to doubt. But in today's climate of evangelism, I think there is a great possibility that people who doubt their salvation are doubting it simply because they have never actually been converted, because they never actually heard an accurate presentation of the gospel.

41:38

And I think that we do an injustice to the person by trying to give them an assurance before we do some kind of a checkup on them to see why should

41:49

I believe, first of all, that they are saved? Well, you know, it's a great point,

41:56

Buzz. And, you know, one of the things that's interesting to me, and really was perhaps what started making me think about this even more, was studying what some pastors and theologians in the past, and I was looking particularly at the

42:10

English Puritan, what they said when they were confronted with exactly that question. You're right, we've all had it.

42:16

If we've been in the ministry, we've all had people come up and say just those things. And what I found fascinating was what you just laid out, which is maybe common practice in a lot of churches, you take them to this one verse, you ask them a quick question, and then you basically just say, so stop doubting, you know, stop thinking about this, was not at all what the practice was in the 17th century.

42:37

What they did instead is they said, well, let's dig into this a little bit, because they didn't want to give someone false assurance.

42:44

They were talking about life and death issues. I don't want to just have someone come to me.

42:49

I don't want a doctor who sees me and says, no, you can't possibly have cancer, you know, and just ask me one or two questions.

43:00

If there's a possibility that I have cancer, I want them running the test and doing the diagnosis and looking at the numbers or whatever they need to do.

43:10

Similarly, I think as spiritual physicians, as spiritual, you know, surgeons, what we want to do is when someone comes to us with that kind of a question, all right, now

43:22

I want to really, let's get, let's diagnose this, because if nothing else, even if they are genuine believers and they're just going through a period of doubt because of a maybe, you know, their conscience is bothering them for one thing or another,

43:37

I want to walk them through that, because what a tremendous opportunity for spiritual growth.

43:43

And then if they're not genuine Christians, I agree with you, Buzz, I think most of the time they may not be, because they don't understand what believe means, and so they just assume believe means, you know,

43:54

I said, I checked off yes on a card. No, that's not what the gospel is.

44:00

And so it's an important opportunity for me to really dig deeply into the gospel with them.

44:06

Right. And even 1 John 5, 13, I believe the solution there is what things were written that you may know that you have eternal life.

44:15

And you've already, I have a sermon that I preached all over the place that I broke down about seven things in 1

44:22

John that are written that you might know you have eternal life. Yes. Yes. It's the whole book you use to diagnose yourself, not just the one verse.

44:30

Exactly. No, it's a great way of looking at it, Buzz, and I bet if any of our listeners did that and went through the book of 1

44:37

John, they would find things as well. And some of those things, it has to be said, some of those things are behavioral things.

44:44

Yes. Sin things. You know, some of them are, do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, but some of them are good work.

44:53

Yeah. Well, yeah. Even things like, you know, we know we've passed out of death and delight because we love the brethren. You know, if we don't love the brethren, we're a murderer and you know no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

45:03

I mean, that's the way it's worded there, you know? Yeah, exactly. So you're right. I mean, I think the problem with using that, just that verse in isolation is it takes out what

45:13

John spent the whole letter doing. He's actually giving us these tests and it, I like the idea or the image of going in to see a doctor because I think what doctors, what good doctors are doing, whether you see them doing it or they're just doing it in their brains while you're talking, is they're kind of going through a list of symptoms.

45:30

Tell them your symptoms. Okay, this, and then they sort of rule out certain things because they're not relevant.

45:36

And then certain things they say, wait a minute, tell me a little more about that because that's important. And I think we can do that and we should do that with ourselves and with people who would come to us with that question.

45:48

Well, somebody has come to us with this question. Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan, and he did not request to remain anonymous, so I mentioned his name, his first name anyway.

46:01

He says, I wrestle with the worry of being self -deluded or deceived in regards to my salvation quite often, and I don't know if I'll ever come to the place of being rid of this uncertainty.

46:15

Until that day comes, I hang on John 6 verse 37 for my assurance as weak as it is, all that the

46:22

Father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

46:29

If you could comment, Jonathan. Well, Jeff, I, you know,

46:35

I'm so grateful to hear that testimony because there are a couple reasons.

46:42

One, I think in contrast to the kind of thing Buzz was talking about where people sort of have a false assurance, you don't have that.

46:51

So I praise the Lord that you're being really discerning. I also am so grateful to hear that you're looking at Jesus' words in John 6.

47:00

That's probably, if you came to me and we had a chance to sit down over a cup of coffee and talk about it more, that's probably the very first text

47:09

I would want to encourage you with. I think there are times in our lives, for various reasons, where we just do really question this.

47:20

We don't, the sort of inward testimony of the Spirit seems very vague and unhelpful, and we look at our lives and see good works but also see sin, and it's at those moments especially that I would want to say, look to Jesus.

47:36

Look to the promises He made, which is exactly what you're doing, and exactly what

47:42

I would continue to urge you to do. I will say one other thing, though, as well, Jeff, that might be of some use to you.

47:50

I hope it will be. I think, too, that we can grow in our assurance as well by participation in the body of Christ and, you know, what the older theologians would have called the means of grace that are provided for us.

48:06

There are objective things that the Lord has given to us, the Lord's Supper is one, whereby

48:12

I think He does confirm in us and reassure us of the promises of the gospel, and so I hope that in addition to clinging to John 6, which

48:24

I hear you doing and I keep doing it, I would also say, Jeff, cling to Jesus' promises and cling to what

48:33

He's given you in the local church, and continue to participate in that and benefit from that.

48:43

Well, thank you so much, Jeff, and thank you for your honesty, and keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron radio in Michigan and beyond.

48:54

There is a truth that even

49:00

Charles Spurgeon has mentioned in the past where someone could be so sensitive in a positive way about sin and so aware of their own sin that it drives them at times to doubt their salvation even if they are truly regenerate, and that is actually in some ways a positive sign, is it not?

49:25

Even though the person may be unnecessarily robbing themselves of the peace that they should have, it's still a good sign that they are concerned about their behavior and looking upon themselves as unworthy.

49:40

Am I right? I agree, and you know, I do take it as a positive sign.

49:45

It can be a difficult thing for someone to struggle with. You know, I would also, I talked about the means of grace, and I would also say, continue in prayer, you know, to someone like Jeff, continue in prayer.

49:58

The Lord can really use that means in your life. But yeah, Chris, to answer your question, I do think it can be a positive sign, and it's very interesting.

50:07

A lot of people have pointed this out. If you look at the Apostle Paul's letters in chronological order, and you look at how he referred to himself, you know, he talks about himself as, you know, the least of the apostles, and it's kind of thing, but you get to his final letter, he calls himself the chief of sinners.

50:24

So it's almost as if, you know, the longer he lives as a

50:29

Christian and the more he grows, the more aware he is of his own sinfulness.

50:34

I don't think Paul was, you know, sliding away in any sense. It seems to me as if he's growing in grace.

50:42

I know he was growing in grace, but yet part of growing in grace is actually growing in awareness sometimes of our own sinfulness.

50:50

One pastor friend of mine has used this illustration, it's not original with me, but you know, if you dust a room, it can look like it's pretty clean, but then if the sunlight shines in through the window directly on the place where you just dusted, what happens?

51:04

We see all kinds of particles flowing and floating in the air, you see all kinds of things you didn't actually get as clean as you thought you had.

51:12

And I think there's an analogy there with the way it works in our lives. As the light of God's Word and the work of God's Spirit continues in our hearts, we see more dirt and dust.

51:24

And that's not a negative thing, that's a positive thing, that we have a growing awareness of our own sinfulness.

51:33

Yes, and I believe Reverend Buzz has something to say, but we're going to take what you have to say when we return from the break, because we're going to go to a break right now.

51:41

And if anybody would like to join us, and we still have a number of you who have contacted us, and we will get to you,

51:47

God willing, as time allows. But if anybody else wants to join us with a question, if we have time to have

51:54

Jonathan answer it, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

52:04

And please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

52:10

And by the way, many of you may be wondering why I constantly repeat that. That's because I frequently get emails that don't have the person's city and state and country, and we want to get an idea of where our listeners are listening to us.

52:25

But we are going to be back after these messages. This is our elongated gap or break to comply with Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida that requires a minimum of 12 minutes gap between our two segments.

52:41

So we will be back after this break with more of assurance with our guest

52:48

Jonathan Master. So please don't go away. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

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That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

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That's liyfc .org. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

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59:47

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with an hour to go is

59:55

Jonathan Master, Professor of Theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

01:00:02

We have been discussing and will continue to discuss assurance. How can fallible men know we are saved?

01:00:10

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsin at gmail .com. chrisarnsin at gmail .com.

01:00:17

And by the way, Jonathan, I forgot to mention to you that I was forwarding to you a question, actually two questions from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

01:00:27

Did you get those questions? I did, Chris. Yeah, I got them. Okay, great. And we will have you go to those questions after a few announcements and after the

01:00:36

Reverend Buzz Taylor has to say something. But right now I just need to make a couple of important announcements from our sponsors.

01:00:44

The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is pleased to announce that the

01:00:49

Word of Truth Bible Institute will be offering two free classes this summer, the Book of Romans and Old Testament Survey.

01:00:57

Romans will meet on July 19th and July 26th from 7 to 9 p .m.

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And the Old Testament Survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st from 7 to 9 p .m.

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with the exception of July 19th, which will be from 5 to 7 p .m. The location of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is 1055

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Portion Road in Farmingville, and you must register by calling Pastor Bruce Bennett at area code 631 -806 -0614.

01:01:34

631 -806 -0614. Even though the Romans class has already started, new students are still welcome.

01:01:42

The Word of Truth Church website is wotchurch .com. That's W -O -T for Word of Truth.

01:01:50

Church .com. W -O -T church .com. Then coming up next month, only a couple of weeks away,

01:01:58

August 3rd through the 5th, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the

01:02:04

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers at this conference include

01:02:10

Pastor Don Curran of HeartCry Missionary Society, which is the organization founded by Paul Washer, my friend

01:02:17

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's an author and pastor of the

01:02:22

Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's been a guest on this program as well.

01:02:28

He is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who has the radio station in Florida that airs

01:02:41

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio daily in a pre -recorded form. And Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who we've also had on the program, who is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and he is the author of Reviving New England that we discussed with him the last time he was on.

01:03:01

He's also the author of a new book that we, God willing, will be interviewing him on in the near future,

01:03:07

Why We're Protestants, or Why We're Protestant, I should say. If you'd like to register for the

01:03:15

Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:03:21

Then, as I mentioned earlier at the outset of this program, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their

01:03:27

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology from November 17th through the 18th at the

01:03:33

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Olyphant.

01:03:42

That's November 17th through the 18th. The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan in the classic hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

01:03:53

If you would like to join me there at the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, go to alliancenet .org,

01:04:01

alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:04:07

Then we have coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th, the

01:04:13

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. The theme is Knowing God, a

01:04:18

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. And the 17th,

01:04:23

January 17th, this will be exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference.

01:04:29

From the 18th through the 20th will be the English version of the conference, featuring such speakers as Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

01:04:40

Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

01:04:51

If you would like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

01:04:57

And please, if you are registering for any of these events, or if you're merely contacting the organizations running these events for more details, please always mention that you heard about these events from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:05:13

And now, again, I have to do the thing that I hate doing the most. In fact, it's the only thing

01:05:19

I hate doing during my broadcast, and that's asking you for money. And the reason

01:05:24

I do that is because those who are already advertising with me have urged me to make public appeals for donations to further ensure that Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio will remain on the air.

01:05:36

And as I always say, or I try to remember to always say, never, ever, ever siphon money out of your giving to your local church, nor do

01:05:46

I want to take money, or should I say take food, off of your family's dinner table if you are struggling to get by, or make ends meet.

01:05:56

Those two things are commands of God, providing for your church and providing for your family. Iron Sharpen's Iron is not among the commands of God that you support.

01:06:05

But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those commands, and you have extra resources financially to give to us, especially if you love this show, if it's a part of your regular habit, if it's been a blessing to you, if it's edified you, if you've learned from it, well, if you have those extra funds, please consider donating to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio by going to our website, ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:06:33

ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and you will be given an address where you can mail a check for any amount made out to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:06:42

And if you want to advertise with us, whether it is your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your corporation, your professional practice, such as if you're a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, a chiropractor, whether it's a special event that you're orchestrating, well, as long as whatever you're doing is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, we would love to hear from you.

01:07:09

And our email address is ironsharpen, I'm sorry, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

01:07:19

and put advertising in the subject line. That is also the email address where you can send in a question for Jonathan Master on Assurance, our discussion for today, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

01:07:32

and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

01:07:41

Now, the Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host, had something that he wanted to bring up. Yes, I want to go back to Jeff for a moment here and see if this can possibly...

01:07:49

Go back to where? To our questioner, Jeff. Oh, okay. Yes, and as far as his doubting whether he's truly come to faith, well,

01:08:00

I like to refer to this as applied Calvinism, and it's found in 2 Peter 1.

01:08:06

Now, I'm going to give you the last part. I'm certainly not going to expound on this whole text. It would simply take too long, but I just want you to pay attention.

01:08:13

This came up earlier, but I want to put it a little bit under the magnifying glass. It says,

01:08:18

If these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our

01:08:26

Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short -sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

01:08:33

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing you.

01:08:39

For as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble. For in this way, the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our

01:08:46

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. Now, I gave you the last part, so you could see he's talking about making your election, as the

01:08:54

King James Version words it, make your election sure. Well, what is he talking about? He starts up in verse 5,

01:09:01

For this very reason also, apply with all diligence in your faith, supply moral excellence, and he goes through adding to moral excellence, knowledge, to knowledge, self -control, self -control, perseverance, and he goes through this list.

01:09:14

What I would suggest doing is making a study of this chapter for a while. Find out what each one of those things is actually talking about, and even the context where it says,

01:09:24

For this very reason. What reason? It's the stuff that he said before. So make a study of this chapter, and I think it will help you to gain a lot of victory in your life.

01:09:33

Thanks a lot, Buzz. That was excellent. Well, now we will go to the two questions that Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania had for you.

01:09:45

Jonathan, the first is, What is the best answer to give critics when

01:09:50

I state that I know that I'm saved or of the elect? The usual criticism is that I am deceived if I think myself saved or how dare

01:10:00

I presume it. P .S. I don't go around making those statements publicly all the time.

01:10:06

The only times I make that statement usually occurs when someone who is in doubt about their own salvation asks me.

01:10:14

That's the first question. Yeah, Jenny, we're kind of neighbors here.

01:10:20

Ben Salem is not far away from Langhorne. But in any case, good question. Thanks for asking it.

01:10:25

I think the basic answer that you give in those kinds of situations is, I'm simply trusting in the promises that Jesus himself has given me.

01:10:35

I'm not saying this in such a way as to elevate myself.

01:10:41

A biblical understanding of salvation would actually point us to the fact that we came in great need.

01:10:49

We came because we couldn't save ourselves. So I would just simply say to people, listen, I'm just trusting in what

01:10:57

Jesus has promised. It's not about something that I've done or any intrinsic sort of value that I have above anyone else.

01:11:06

It's just that I trust that what my Savior said is true and what the

01:11:13

Bible says is true. And because I'm confident in what the Bible says, and because I'm confident in what the

01:11:20

Lord Jesus Christ has said, I can be confident that what he says to me is true, is right.

01:11:30

And then I think, you know, that then puts it, you know, in a sense what you're saying, Jenny, at that point is, listen, your argument isn't with me, it's with the

01:11:38

Lord. And if you think that this confidence that I have is in some way an affront to you, well, your issue really isn't with me.

01:11:50

Your issue is with Jesus himself and with the scriptures themselves which make these kinds of promises.

01:11:58

Great. And we have as her second question, what is the most convincing scriptural argument concerning assurance for an

01:12:08

Arminian? Hmm, that's interesting. That's really what we're trying to get at in its core today regarding this entire discussion.

01:12:17

Yeah, I don't, it's hard to say what the most convincing argument will be. I think what you'd want to give to them, though, are these statements that we have in the

01:12:29

Bible about assurance, the ones we've been talking about. Buzz just did an excellent job of reviewing 2

01:12:34

Peter chapter 1, Romans chapter 8, Hebrews chapter 6, 1

01:12:40

John chapter 5. These are the kinds of texts that I think can give us confidence that this is true.

01:12:49

You know, in Romans chapter 8, Paul says, those who may justify, he also glorified.

01:12:56

There's this unbroken chain between justification and glorification.

01:13:02

And so if one can be said to be true, then the other, I know, will be true as well.

01:13:08

And so those are the kinds of texts I would look to. Again, you know, when you talk about what's the most convincing one, it almost makes it sound like, you know, if you give them this verse, if you show them this verse, they'll be convinced.

01:13:19

And the fact is, we know that that's often not the case. But those are the ones, those are some of the ones that I would go to.

01:13:27

Well, thank you so much, Jenny. Keep listening to Iron Shrub and Zion Radio, and keep spreading the word in Bensalem, Pennsylvania and beyond.

01:13:37

We have Joe in Slovenia. Thank you for the giant font, Joe. Dear Brother Chris and John, until recently,

01:13:47

I assumed that the doctrines of once saved, always saved, and the perseverance of the saints were simply two different terms for the same teaching.

01:13:57

I was using and explaining once saved, always saved in exactly the same way as perseverance of the saints, meaning that if one perseveres in sanctification to the end, that is evidence of once saved, always saved.

01:14:11

Is this correct? Do the two phrases in some official way contain differing and opposing teachings?

01:14:17

Or can they rightly be understood to be synonymous? If they must be understood as incompatible, please explain why and how.

01:14:26

Thank you both for your faithful perseverance with us, whom you disciple each day through this program.

01:14:32

Well, that's an excellent question, because isn't it, when it boils down to it, when you're talking about these two phrases, isn't it that they are both true, but once saved, always saved is an insufficient description because it may lead someone to a false understanding?

01:14:53

Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it. I think the trouble, the deficiency in the language of once saved, always saved, even though it's accurate, is that it makes our salvation seem like it is only this particular event that happens, and then, you know, even if nothing else happens afterwards, even if nothing else ever changes, even if there's no other growth or nothing, you know, beyond that, it's still real.

01:15:27

So this is, this, it can get twisted to mean, really, if you made a decision once, it's good for all eternity, even if you've turned your back on it completely, even if it was obviously momentary and not genuine, you know, that kind of thing.

01:15:43

So it's not technically wrong, it is true. If you're genuinely saved, then you're, the

01:15:50

Lord will cause you to persevere, but it's open to all kinds of misunderstandings and maybe twisting, and because it plays into this idea of salvation, that it's a, it is a momentary decision, and that's it.

01:16:11

And of course, the doctrine of our salvation, the doctrine of what Jesus Christ has done for us and what

01:16:16

God the Holy Spirit does in and through us and regenerating us and sanctifying us and ultimately glorifying us is far, far greater than just, you know,

01:16:25

I made a decision once, therefore it sort of is good forever. That's not the biblical doctrine of conversion.

01:16:35

And when you say the same thing in regard to the phrase eternal security, although Reformed people have been known to use it, even,

01:16:42

I've even seen R .C. Sproul and others use the term eternal security, it may be true, but it's not a sufficient term to just leave by itself.

01:16:52

I mean, you need to further explain what you're talking about, because sometimes, and Barrett, in fact, tragically, very often, people who hear the phrase once saved, always saved, what they really mean by it is that once you think you're saved, you're always truly saved, and they will use that phrase in regard to eternal security as well, just because you think that you were saved at one point, they will say you are truly eternally secure, and that's not true.

01:17:24

I mean, it's not always true. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I think it's one of those phrases, once again, that is correct, technically, but is open to all kinds of misleading understandings, because, again, it can lend itself to this notion that salvation is this, simply and solely, this momentary decision that is made, and then after that, you know, all bets are off, there's almost nothing, it's sort of disconnected from everything else in life, and in behavior, and in the work of ongoing work of the

01:18:07

Spirit in our lives, and that's not the Bible's picture of conversion.

01:18:13

And so, yeah, I mean, again, it's true to talk about eternal security, I would affirm it, but it's not the phrase

01:18:21

I tend to use, because it sort of plays into this misunderstanding of conversion.

01:18:29

And also, going back to once saved, always saved, there's something flippant about it, isn't there?

01:18:35

I mean, it's too much of a catchy buzz phrase or placard that is given in a very flippant manner, as if you're not even to be concerned about testing your own life under a microscope.

01:18:56

You know, Jesus said, a good tree bears good fruit. Therefore, we should be evaluating the fruit that we're bearing, and once saved, always saved is almost something that would alleviate everyone of having any concern about that, even if they are deceiving themselves.

01:19:17

Yeah, it strikes me that same way, Chris, as a very flippant way of talking about our salvation, as if we did our thing, and now it's just, it's almost, we don't have to think about it anymore.

01:19:31

And of course, you're right, that's the opposite of the attitude that the Bible prescribes for us.

01:19:37

In fact, we're supposed to be diligent, we're supposed to work hard, we're supposed to think about these things, and beware that we're not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, etc.,

01:19:46

etc. And so, yeah, it's very transactional, and very much as if something that happened in the past is just sitting out there, it's always good for all time, and I don't need to think about it any longer.

01:20:01

And again, that doesn't mean that the phrase itself is technically wrong, but I think you're right, that it does kind of create the wrong impression.

01:20:14

It's almost the kind of phrase that would require the same kind of response that James has placed in his epistle.

01:20:25

You say that you believe in one God, you do well, but even the demons believe, and they tremble, you know. Well, that's a great passage.

01:20:32

James too says, you know, what good is it if someone says, I have faith but has no works?

01:20:38

I mean, so what's the issue there? It's someone saying something, but then what does that actually do?

01:20:44

If you say, be warm to be filled, James says, does that fill up anyone's belly?

01:20:50

No, it doesn't. You know, so I think pretty consistently in the Scriptures, we are warned against the possibility of just falsely, flippantly saying something.

01:21:01

Paul even talks about a worldly repentance that has tears associated with it, and yet it's not godly sorrow that leads to real repentance, it's worldly sorrow that leads to death.

01:21:15

By the way, I'm sure Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan, wouldn't mind me reading this.

01:21:22

He says, Pastor Buzz, thank you for setting me on my way to study 2

01:21:27

Peter 1. I'm thankful for you and enjoy your humor. Even when Chris slams you in jest, you tend to handle it well.

01:21:37

It's so nice to know there's somebody on my side, thank you. Even though Chris slams you in jest, you tend to handle it well, and with love and understanding.

01:21:45

It's good for all of us listeners having you as an integral part of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That was very nice of Jeff, and now

01:21:54

Buzz can dry his tears. Thank you so much,

01:21:59

Jeff, that's very encouraging. And let's see, we have some more listeners here that have questions.

01:22:07

We have Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina, and in fact,

01:22:15

Seth, I just heard a good report about him, another one of our listeners in Greensboro, North Carolina, Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker.

01:22:28

I believe he invited Seth to preach in the congregation there in Greensboro, Shepherd's Fellowship, and apparently

01:22:36

Seth did a wonderful job from the pulpit, and they sent me a photograph of the two of them.

01:22:43

And Seth says, when it comes to the issue of assurance, how would you encourage or rebuke a believer who is struggling with a particular sin, whether it is a first time or a number of times this person has been caught or admitted to a sin?

01:23:04

I think that, you know, we need to continually remind ourselves and remind others of the seriousness of what one author calls the sinfulness of sin.

01:23:21

So I think we ought not to take sin lightly or flippantly.

01:23:28

Now, I wouldn't, based on what I'm just hearing,

01:23:33

I mean, not knowing, it's really hard to advise someone pastorally without knowing all the details, but you know, if someone sins, as we all do,

01:23:46

I wouldn't immediately play the card of, are you sure you're a Christian? I mean, remember 1 John 1 .9,

01:23:51

remember the context of it. It's written to believers so that you may know for sure that you have eternal life, and yet what does

01:23:58

John say? If you say that you're without sin, anyone who says he's without sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him.

01:24:05

That's 1 John 1 .8. And so I think we do acknowledge that we're weak and sinful creatures and we're charged to encourage one another daily so that we're not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

01:24:20

So certainly would want to continually impress upon someone the severity of it. It's not something to take lightly.

01:24:26

It's not something to say, oh well, but I'm safe, so it's okay. That's not at all. That would worry me.

01:24:31

If that were someone's attitude, if their attitude was, it doesn't matter, that's what I would start to say, well, wait a minute.

01:24:37

Do you really understand that what it means to be a

01:24:42

Christian? Do you really understand the work of Christ on the cross?

01:24:48

And so, but when you talk about someone who's struggling with sin and repenting of sin, but constantly struggling, as we all are, it has to be said, then

01:24:59

I would say, you know, we come alongside one another. We help one another. We don't downplay the importance of sin.

01:25:06

We don't say it's no big deal. We don't say that. But we, while taking sin seriously, encourage one another in our pilgrimage.

01:25:16

Amen. And wouldn't you say that there is a huge difference between one examining themselves, being fruit inspectors, if you will, of their own lives, especially, and in compared to the

01:25:36

Pelagian treadmill of one being in constant apprehension, fear, and even abject terror, possibly, that they are not up to snuff to meriting

01:25:53

God's favor. Now, one thing is for certain, they never will merit

01:25:58

God's favor if they're on that Pelagian treadmill. But there is a difference, isn't there?

01:26:04

Even if you want to consider someone not in the Church of Rome, but even an

01:26:10

Armenian, a five -point Armenian evangelical who is really never satisfied with their performance, because they rightly, in one way, view themselves as never being quite adequate to please

01:26:28

God. But when that is tied in with whether or not they're saved, that could have disastrous results.

01:26:34

And it's a really entirely different thing than being a fruit inspector of your life, isn't it? Yeah, it really is different.

01:26:42

And it gets back to the doctrine of salvation. You have to remind yourself of what we know to be true about our salvation, which is it's the work of Christ, and it's the work of the

01:26:54

Spirit in our hearts bringing us to new life. And because it's the work of God, it's never going to be something that's dependent upon my good works or my faithfulness.

01:27:06

It's going to be dependent on the Lord's work in me. And so, yeah,

01:27:12

I think that makes all the difference in the world. When you understand the source and grounds of your justification, then you can look at yourself seriously, critically, you know, sometimes with tears, and evaluate your own life.

01:27:29

But that's different from the kind of introspection that, as you said, fruit inspection, but the kind of introspection that attempts to try to discern whether we've done enough, in a sense, to merit our salvation.

01:27:51

Now, wouldn't you also say that morbid introspection can be a dangerous sign of self -absorption?

01:28:00

I mean, because if you are constantly in a fetal position in the corner, terrified over your own election, you will be neglecting doing your duty as a

01:28:13

Christian, you'll be neglecting serving others as an ambassador of Christ, you will, you know, obviously, if you're so inward in your life, a lot will be falling to the wayside as far as the duty of every

01:28:30

Christian. Yeah, it can be paralyzing. And, you know, pastors who are listening need to be able to recognize the person who just has a very, very sensitive conscience, and is therefore, you know, overly introspective.

01:28:46

And what do they need? Well, they need the salve, the ointment, if you will, of the Gospel, the promises of God in Christ that Jeff talked about, just kind of clinging to John 6.

01:28:57

And as a pastor, I would want to remind my sensitive congregants of that constantly, and be comforting them with the promises that Jesus has made.

01:29:06

I will say, to be honest, and this might just reflect, you know, my own experiences, and it may not be true for our listeners, but I don't think that's generally the bigger problem today.

01:29:20

It has been at various periods of Church history, and it may be for many who are listening now, we've already heard from a few, but in general,

01:29:29

I think the far greater problem is the one that Buzz identified earlier, which is people just assuming, presuming, that, you know, by having done something, or having thought something, or prayed something, therefore now

01:29:44

I can be sure of my salvation. I think that's the bigger issue in our day.

01:29:52

But yeah, if the other kind of introspection is a struggle, then cling to Christ, look to His promises.

01:30:00

You know something, believe it or not, I don't know if you agree with me or not, but I think what you just said today, in the 21st century, is even the biggest problem in the

01:30:10

Church of Rome. I think that because of the liberalism that has dominated the Roman Catholic Church, where you have in their modern catechism a hope of salvation for Muslims, and Hindus, and Buddhists, and you have people like Peter Kreeft, the

01:30:26

Roman Catholic apologist, talking about atheists who are living according to the light that they've been given, referring to them as anonymous

01:30:36

Christians who have a hope of salvation. I think that that terror that the

01:30:41

Roman Catholics used to have, you know, a typical Roman Catholic would have on their

01:30:48

Pelagian treadmill, I don't even think that that is a dominant problem today, even though they might not say,

01:30:54

I know I'm going to heaven, they're really not terrified over it. A friend of mine,

01:31:00

Rob Zins, who has an organization, apologetics organization, focusing on evangelism to Roman Catholics, years ago he wrote that your average

01:31:11

Catholic may think he's not good enough for heaven, but he also doesn't think he's bad enough for hell.

01:31:20

And there is sometimes a false humility in saying, well I don't really know if I'm going to heaven, it's kind of a patting yourself on the back as being not too proud or something.

01:31:33

Am I making sense? Yeah, I mean, I would be hard -pressed to make generalizations about what's going on in the

01:31:42

Catholic Church, but it strikes me as something, as what you're saying is true.

01:31:48

I mean, we definitely see it in our circles, in evangelical Protestant circles,

01:31:53

Reform circles, we definitely see that kind of thing, and I think it's probably true there as well, that there's this really loose attitude towards these kinds of things, and I think you put it well, that a lot of people who think, well

01:32:09

I can't be sure about heaven, but I'm sure I'm not going to hell, which effectively means you are confident that you'll be saved from God's wrath, or you just don't understand what that is at all.

01:32:20

So yeah, I think these are big problems people generally aren't giving the serious consideration to their own souls that we need to be giving.

01:32:34

Yes, and I've heard from Roman Catholic apologists who I have had involved in debates that I've organized with Dr.

01:32:42

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and others, who will be openly admitting that that is a major problem in the

01:32:50

Roman Catholic Church today, is that people are not only ignorant of the Bible, they're ignorant of their own dogma as a religion, and there is no problem waiting on long lines for the confessional booth in the 21st century.

01:33:05

Not that we would believe that that is something that anybody should be involved in, in fact most of us in the

01:33:12

Reformed faith would consider that to be an extremely heretical and dangerous activity, but if you actually believe that it is a required sacrament in order to receive eternal life after your season in purgatory after you die, you would think that the lines would be very, very long.

01:33:32

Yeah, yeah. No, you're right, and I think that that probably is indicative of the perspective that many have, and the sort of flippancy that they have towards the things of God.

01:33:47

So I think you're probably on to something there, but you know, as you said,

01:33:52

I mean, goodness knows our churches aren't exempt from that because there's a kind of casualness towards these matters that's very pervasive, even in our own circles.

01:34:03

I'm going to read you a question before we go to our final break, and you can answer it when we return. It's not really completely in line with our topic, but I figured

01:34:13

I'd ask you anyway. This is a first -time questioner,

01:34:19

Anu in New York City, that's A -N -U. Anu says,

01:34:25

I have a question for you. I minister to seniors a couple of times or more each week.

01:34:34

There is this particular couple I meet each week, and today the wife told me not to mention anything about God in front of her husband, things like God bless and have a blessed day, etc.

01:34:47

I was quite taken aback. How can I not mention God? What are your thoughts?

01:34:53

And you could answer that when we return from our station break, and this is our final break.

01:34:59

If anybody would like to join us on the air, now is the time to do it, at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:35:05

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

01:41:07

In fact, let me add another thing that the Reverend Buzz Taylor contributes to this program is he picks out a lot of the music that you hear behind our commercials, which he has in a very exhaustive archive of music, and we thank you for that.

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It's, I think, excellent music that you've chosen. And we have that listener,

01:41:27

Jonathan, that asked a question, Anu in Manhattan, who asked the question on whether or not she should refrain from speaking about God while ministering to elderly people, or anybody for that matter, when they insist, please don't talk about God anymore.

01:41:45

What should she do about that? Well, I think, ultimately, we can't ever refrain from speaking the truth.

01:41:56

I mean, the first passage that jumped into my mind, Anu, when I heard this was the incident that happens in Acts chapter 4, where Peter and John are confronted by the officials and told that they can't speak out anymore.

01:42:13

Similar, the kind of thing you've been told, and they said, we cannot, in verse 20 of Acts 4, we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.

01:42:23

At the same time, there may be people, friendships that you have, relationships that you have, and at a certain point, they say,

01:42:32

I don't want to talk with you about this anymore. And I think you can still be friends with them, you're still going to live your life and be a witness, but perhaps you refrain from speaking specifically with them.

01:42:49

So I'm not exactly sure I understand the circumstances, because it sounded like maybe the wife was saying, don't talk about this in front of my husband,

01:42:58

I'm not sure if you have yet or not. And so, is the wife saying, we've heard enough about this already from you, stop?

01:43:06

Or is the wife saying, just don't ever bring this up, he doesn't need to hear it. Anyway, there's some peculiarities to the situation

01:43:14

I'm not sure of, but ultimately, one way to think of it is this, if you were a doctor, and you knew that you had a cure for them, at what point would you stop telling them about that?

01:43:27

At what point would you not care to share that with them? Maybe there would come a point where they've heard it, and they've rejected it.

01:43:36

But in general, I would say, how can you not give these words of life to someone?

01:43:42

Yeah, and wouldn't it be wise for her to very gently and compassionately have a dialogue with the wife, and tell the wife that she loves

01:43:54

God so much, meaning that Anu loves God so much, that she cannot resist from speaking about him, and perhaps ask this woman why this request or demand has been made, and it may lead into a conversation that opens up all kinds of avenues for evangelism.

01:44:14

I can remember when I, back in the 1980s as a new Christian, would volunteer weekly at a nursing home during what our church had called

01:44:25

Vespas. It's kind of an Anglican term, I think, for an evening service that involves music and so on.

01:44:33

And we used to have a service at the nursing home where there would be a lot of singing and a short sermon.

01:44:42

And we were always, as volunteers, making our rounds in the different areas where the residents of the nursing home would congregate in their wheelchairs, and we would ask them, would you like to join us for a church service?

01:44:55

And if they said yes, we would wheel them over to the area where the Vespas service was going on.

01:45:03

And one woman, when I asked her that, would you like to join me for a church service?

01:45:10

She very angrily said to me, I'm Jewish, no! And I said to her, well that's okay,

01:45:16

Jesus is Jewish, you know. And she said, really? Okay. And I wheeled her over there, and I don't know whatever became of this woman, but I don't know what kind of seed was planted while she heard that minister speaking.

01:45:34

You never know. I mean, obviously, we will never know not being infallible, omniscient people.

01:45:40

But if you could comment on that. No, I think you're right. I mean, so this is the kind of situation that doesn't lend itself to an answer that this is what you should do, absolutely.

01:45:53

What it really lends itself to is you need to have a follow -up conversation. This woman has asked you something that is pretty unusual and pretty, gets to the heart of who you are.

01:46:05

And I think it's worth following up, and it may give you the opportunity to explain why it is that you care so much about talking about the

01:46:12

Lord. Why it is that you care so much for them and for their lives and for their souls, that you continue to talk about the

01:46:19

Lord. What it is that the Lord has done for you. And so Chris, I think you're right. Sometimes these initial rejections can be openings for further conversation.

01:46:28

And Reverend Buzz has a comment or a question. You know, this is something that the Apostle Paul even addressed once too, because he was requesting prayer that he would know how to speak to each one, because you're not going to run into any two situations that are the same.

01:46:42

And I know we'd like to think that there's one size fits all. You get this formula going, it's going to work everywhere.

01:46:48

But well, hey, that's one of the reasons we're dependent on the Holy Spirit. Sorry. Well, thank you.

01:46:55

Go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh, no, no. I was just going to basically say amen to what Buzz said.

01:47:01

He's right. I mean, both with Christians and with non -Christians, we need wisdom to know how to respond to them appropriately.

01:47:08

Well, thank you, Anu. And because you're a first time questioner, you have won a new American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

01:47:16

NASB and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

01:47:23

That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com. So keep your eye open in the mail for a package with a return address on the shipping label that says

01:47:33

CVBBS .com. And going back to one of our earlier questions,

01:47:39

I believe it was Rose in Harrisburg when she was troubled by a lack of certainty over where a young woman who who passed on into eternity was spending eternity.

01:47:53

She didn't know if this woman was saved. I have met people even

01:47:58

I've even spoken with pastors on occasion who if I ask something like, is your father or mother a

01:48:07

Christian? And they will sometimes say, no, sadly, they are in hell.

01:48:13

They were not Christians. And I have asked them on occasion, were you with them when they died?

01:48:21

No. Isn't that a really rash rush to judgment if you are not with a person when they actually depart from this world?

01:48:31

Isn't it possible that these people were saved because of seeds that were planted by you or someone else, and they may have come to salvation, they may have been born from above, born again, without your knowledge of it?

01:48:47

Sure. I mean, that's what we see with Jesus and the thief on the cross, who was dying, was in the process of dying, and at that moment understood who

01:48:59

Jesus was, who was being crucified next to him, and trusted him. And Jesus said, today you'll be with me in paradise.

01:49:07

And so, yes, that can happen. And at the same time,

01:49:12

I don't want to say to people, well, it probably happened or it might have, you know, must have happened, but I agree with you.

01:49:20

It's equally presumptuous and far less kind to say it absolutely couldn't have happened and it never would have.

01:49:27

No, the Lord has done remarkable things on people's deathbeds.

01:49:33

Yeah, shouldn't we hold on to any hope that is possible without inventing things or having false confidence?

01:49:40

But if you don't know, I mean, obviously, if you're with somebody and they're cursing God until their final breath, you might have more certainty that they are not saved.

01:49:51

But if you weren't even there, I mean, all kinds of things could have occurred. Absolutely right.

01:49:58

In fact, if we didn't have in the Word of God, the account of the thief on the cross, there may have been many who knew that thief, who were nowhere near that site, who wouldn't know.

01:50:11

They would have absolutely no, they just remembered, well, that guy, Uncle Bill or whatever his name was, that he was a thief and he was executed for it.

01:50:21

So therefore, he's most likely in hell. But they wouldn't have known unless they had a letter, a scriptural account that they read.

01:50:31

Yeah, in so many of these areas, we need to remind ourselves to have humility.

01:50:37

We don't always know what the Lord is doing in other people's lives. Well, I definitely want you to summarize everything that we have already discussed and break down everything that you want to make sure that our listeners, you want to make sure as best as possible that our listeners understand on this very important and divisive issue that we've got.

01:51:04

Well, I guess if I could summarize it, I would say that the Bible teaches several things about assurance of salvation.

01:51:13

It teaches that we can know for sure, and it teaches us how that happens.

01:51:20

It also tells us that there is a danger of false assurance, and that this can sometimes, you know, ebb and flow in our lives.

01:51:32

But that, you know, to return to the point where you began this program, but that God does promise that His work in us of justification will lead to glorification, and that as Jesus Himself promises, the one who comes to me

01:51:50

I will not cast out, and I will raise him up on the last day. So, great, great scriptural truths, promises of the

01:51:59

Lord, and then teaching from the Lord about how it is that we can know that we will be among those whom the

01:52:11

Lord will raise up on the last day. Amen. And going back to the question of whether or not someone can lose their salvation, if it genuinely existed to begin with,

01:52:25

I can remember my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries saying something that is permanently etched on my mind.

01:52:35

He was specifically talking about the Roman Catholic Church at the time, but I think it's equally applicable to five -point

01:52:42

Armenians who believe that someone could lose their salvation at any moment. They really have no peace with God.

01:52:51

They don't have a true shalom. What they have is a temporary ceasefire that could erupt into a full -scale war at any moment.

01:53:02

Isn't that a very good analogy when you compare what true peace with God is and what this uncertainty that many are sadly plagued with that involves so much human effort rather than the 100 % sovereign grace and mercy of God?

01:53:23

Yeah, the minute you begin to think that your salvation is dependent on what you have done and that that's what you're banking on or that's what you have to look to and remember or place your confidence in, the minute you do that, then if you're honest with yourself, there is just a huge, huge element of real uncertainty.

01:53:45

And you're right. What the Bible points us to in terms of assurance is based on the fact that it's

01:53:52

God's work and God's the one who's done it and they're God's promises and God's at work in your life to bring those promises to completion.

01:54:03

One thing that I wanted to ask Reverend Buzz about, because I know that before he came to understanding of the

01:54:09

Reformed faith, he had spent time even in the pastorate in charismatic and Church of God denominations that would lend themselves to Arminianism.

01:54:21

Did you ever believe, I know that you were educated at Bob Jones that believed in eternal security, but did you ever believe after that that you could lose your salvation?

01:54:31

No, I never abandoned that doctrine and that used to bother, that was one of the things that of course drew me out of the charismatic movement was the fact that I got tired of hearing people condemning, as they said, once saved, always saved.

01:54:45

That was their little cliche. And I felt sorry for them if they could never have assurance, you know.

01:54:52

Amen. And of course, not all charismatics believe that. You have people like the

01:54:58

Sovereign Grace Ministries. But they were very, I mean, very vehement against the doctrine of eternal security.

01:55:04

The ones that you were familiar with. The ones that I was familiar with, yes. Oh, yes. And well, this really, when it boils down to its essence, is a phrase that I've used before.

01:55:19

This is a phrase that I used at the beginning of a program that I created in the 1990s.

01:55:28

It was called The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which was a program that featured five different Reformed churches that each hosted their own night of the week to have a sermon aired during the broadcast.

01:55:44

And during the opening announcement, I would say, to define what the doctrines of Sovereign Grace are,

01:55:52

I would say, in summary, that it is the belief that God alone saves sinners, because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

01:56:03

Isn't that where we really find our greatest hope and trust and peace in knowing that?

01:56:10

Yeah, there's the confidence that we have and the peace that we have is because it's the work of the

01:56:15

Lord and not of ourselves. We understand ourselves rightly. We know that by our nature, we're objects of God's wrath and sinners.

01:56:25

And we are in need of help from the outside, help that only God can provide, that only God's Son can give to us through his work on the cross.

01:56:34

So yeah, that is the source of our hope. You know, a verse of him that's always meant a lot to me is from the hymn,

01:56:44

Come Thou Fount, you know, when we sing, prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, prone to leave the

01:56:50

God I love. I've said many, many times that the most amazing thing about my salvation is that I've still got it.

01:56:57

Amen. That's the work of the Lord. Amen. And as I heard recently from John MacArthur, if I could lose my salvation,

01:57:05

I would. Yes. We have, but before we run out of time, we have

01:57:11

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know if you have books that you could recommend that address this topic, obviously including your own.

01:57:22

Yeah, there are some, I think, helpful books. I mean, my own book is really a look at the history of this doctrine more than, you know, sort of a biblical exposition of it.

01:57:34

My book is called A Question of Consensus, The Doctrine of Assurance After the Westminster Confession, and it looks at what the

01:57:41

Westminster Confession itself says about assurance, and then it also looks at what, you know, others right after it said, who were kind of from the same, you know, same circles.

01:57:57

I think that, you know, in addition to that, you know, R .C. Sproul has a little book,

01:58:03

Can I Be Sure I'm Saved?, which is a helpful little book.

01:58:09

The other thing I would recommend, and this is free, all of our listeners can look this up online, but if you look at some of the the creeds that we have, if you look at the

01:58:18

Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 18, or if you look at the London Confession of Faith, it's 1689, there are paragraphs in there about assurance.

01:58:29

I mean, there are four paragraphs in the Westminster Confession on assurance, and they're really good. They're packed with scripture, and they just sort of unfold many of the things we've talked about, and I would encourage our readers to look at that, and to also look at the footnotes, look at the scripture references that they're looking at.

01:58:47

That'll give you a kind of little theology of assurance. Yes, and Joel Beeky, Dr.

01:58:53

Joel Beeky wrote his doctoral dissertation on this very thing. That's right. And if you want information on that book, go to cvbbs .com.

01:59:03

C -V for Cremlin Valley, B -B -S for BibleBookService .com. Well, I know that your website for Cairn University is cairn .edu.

01:59:16

Any other contact information you care to give? Yeah, well, people can always reach me through my

01:59:22

Cairn email address, which is jmaster at cairn .edu, and that's all posted up there,

01:59:28

I think, on the website. You know, we always like hearing from people on the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

01:59:34

If people listen to the podcast and want to give feedback, they can do that via alliancenet .org

01:59:39

or placefortruth .org. So those are the easiest ways to get in touch. Well, thank you so much for being our guest today.

01:59:45

Thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host. Thank you all for writing in questions, and thank you all for listening.

01:59:52

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.