July 18, 2017 Show with Jonathan Master on “Assurance: How Can Fallible Men Know We Are Saved?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Assurance and the Question of Knowing We Are Saved

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all happy Tuesday on this 18th day of July 2017 in the first epistle of John chapter 5 verse 13 We read these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So that you may know that you have eternal life, but how can fallible men know we are saved. Well, we're going to be talking about assurance today. With Jonathan master who is a returning guest to iron sharpens iron Professor of theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

Editorial director for the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and host of the Alliance podcast Theology on the go is also author of a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance after the Westminster Confession and we are discussing the subject of assurance as I said, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Jonathan master.

Thanks, Chris. Thanks buzz. Good to be back on with you. And as he just mentioned in studio We have the Reverend buzz Taylor as my co-host. And it's great to have you. Better for you not for anybody else.

If anybody would like to join us with a question. For our guest Jonathan master on assurance our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA if you need to remain anonymous for any particular reason, perhaps you are Doubting your own salvation. You don't want anybody to know about it or you're doubting somebody else.

The salvation of somebody else that you know and love perhaps even your pastor. You're wondering if he's saved and you want to remain anonymous. Well, obviously We would grant that request and in fact if it's dealing with somebody else we would insist that that be the case and Otherwise, please though if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us your first name city and state and country of residence and That email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris ar n ze n at gmail .com. Well Jonathan There's been something remarkable going on here at iron sharpens iron radio. There are new listeners contacting me. Nearly every single day sometimes multiple times a day people I've never heard from before and There seems to have been a real breakthrough in our listener our listenership expanding at least That they're contacting me.

Some of these new listeners are really should I say new? Contactors or if that's a Grammatically correct phrase or people who have contacted me for the first time but have listened for quite a while and others.

You have just discovered the program and have fallen in love with it. But because of the fact that there are new listeners that have never heard you on the program. Why don't you let our listeners know?

About the Cairn University since. Even though I should say we've already had you do that before. There may be those that have never heard of you or care.

Yeah, I'm glad to always talk about Cairn. So Cairn University has been around for a little over a hundred years now and Offers a wide variety of majors. It's a Christian university just outside of Philadelphia in Bucks County and Langhorne, Pennsylvania and As I said, we offer a wide number of degrees.

But every student here also takes 30 hours almost a major's worth of Bible and theology. So in addition to whatever it is, they're studying. Some students are here to study theology, but in addition to that The students who are here to study something else and major in something else are studying Bible and theology so Master of Arts Master of Divinity and a THM in this in the School of Divinity here but they're undergrads and And and and so Bible and theology kind of infuses all their classes.

So yeah privileged to be here and we always love meeting prospective students talking to people who are students or graduates who are scattered really throughout the world and.

The website for Cairn University is Cairn Edu that's C a I R n Dot edu and now I'll let our listeners know something about the Alliance of confessing Evangelicals. For those of our listeners who are discovering that for the first time as well and your podcast theology on the go.

Yeah, so the Alliance of confessing evangelicals essentially grew out of the ministry of James Montgomery Boyd and It's a coalition of pastors and scholars and churchmen who hold to the historic creeds and confessions Of the Reformed faith and and are we seek to proclaim biblical doctrine in order to foster a Reformed awakening in today's church.

So people from many different denominations, but committed to the creedal tradition and praying and working towards the end of a Reformation really a rediscovery of the Sufficiency of Scripture and of the truths of the record.

A podcast in particular is called theology on the go usually about 10 to 15 minutes. We take one issue and one guest and I interview them and we talk about it. And so it's a good way to introduce yourself to Theological topics that you might not know about.

We try to really make sure we define all the terms and Make everything as clear as possible and you kind of listen to it on your commute or on your job. Or you're walking your dog. That can be accessed through iTunes and also via placefortruth .org.

Which is an Alliance website that has all kinds of helpful articles and resources. For for Christian people so it find out more you can go to alliancenet .org. That's sort of the big Alliance site or if you want to get a placefortruth .org.

That's where you can access theology on the go or like I said by iTunes. Yeah, I'll be mentioning this later.

But God willing I am going to be at the next local Alliance of confessing evangelicals event here in the Pennsylvania area. I'm God willing going to be at the Quakertown conference on Reform Theology at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown on the theme for still our ancient foe Obviously a reference to Satan in the classical Reformation hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress.

And Speakers that will be on the roster there God willing our Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant. That's November 17th through the 18th. And if anybody wants to join us at that conference go to alliancenet .org as Our guest Jonathan had just mentioned alliancenet .org click on events and then click on Quakertown conference on Reform Theology.

But we'll be repeating that later on today During the broadcast. Well, this is certainly an issue that divides Brethren in Christ you have those that believe that Since God is the one that initiated and actually Created new life in us He will certainly be the finisher of our faith as well.

He will preserve us Until we leave this earth and enter glory not that we would be preserved in perfection But he will pervert preserve us that we would not utterly Apostatize or that we would abandon a Christ although during the journey Many Christians have fallen but have always if they have been truly regenerate Gotten up by the grace of God and repented of the sin They fell into and their lives are marks with marked with repentance and then you have on the other end of the spectrum you have those that believe that a genuinely born-again believer May indeed lose his or her salvation and some would even go as far as calling the doctrine of perseverance and preservation of the Saints Otherwise known as eternal security They would call that the doctrine of demons some of them would go even that far.

And of course, we even have two close friends Who battled over issues like this? From the past George Whitfield and John Wesley Who are on the opposite ends of the theological spectrum on this issue? But still considered themselves to be brothers in Christ and in fact George Whitfield requested John Wesley pray at his funeral when he passed and it's and that's eventually what did occur but This is an important issue.

Is it not and even though we can Forgive our brothers and be patient with them for having an erroneous view. It's still very serious, isn't it?

And I think there are two aspects of it and you mentioned both of them in your introduction. One is the the promises the very real promises We have in Scripture that Christians will be preserved if you're a genuine believer that you'll you'll persevere to the end.

I think that's an incredibly important doctrine and and in fact is is Kind of at at the heart of some of the things that Jesus himself says about our salvation. I think the other issue that's related to it is the what's your.

Can you know that that is true of you? So that that this will happen and then there's the knowledge the assurance that Believers can have that in fact they are genuinely saved.

Yes, and because of the different theological understandings of The perseverance and preservation of the Saints those who either believe in it or oppose it You're going to have a different understanding of assurance.

There are Evangelicals who believe that they cannot ever know on this earth with certainty that they are saved Roman Catholics will even call that presumptive presumptive. The sin of presumption is called in Roman Catholicism, and of course we would not view those that are Dogmatically faithful to Trent to the actual dogmas of Roman Catholicism.

We would not view them as brothers in Christ, although we know that there are Catholics who are saved by his grace But it's not because of their dogma. It's in spite of it, but this is an interesting issue because One of the hardest questions, I think that a Person who believes we cannot lose our salvation has to face Is from the Arminian or Roman Catholic who says to us?

Well, if you are a sinner and you are fallible and You make mistakes every day and you don't know infallibly Everything that is taught in the scripture. How could you possibly? Be certain of your own heart when the scriptures themselves say that the heart is desperately wicked who can know it.

How did in fact there were even? Roman Catholics who will say in a rather mocking fashion That that we are Popes over our own souls because we claim to have infallible knowledge Over our eternal destiny, but if you could comment on that.

Yeah, first of all, you're absolutely right about the Roman Catholic doctrine. It's it's very clear in the canons of Trent. In fact, you know I could sort of quote chapter and verse for you where it says if anyone sayeth that he will for certain of An absolute and infallible certainty have the great gift of perseverance into the end.

Let him be anathema. So in other words, they're saying that the one anyone who says that in fact They know that they're going to be saved is is cursed. The other thing that's really interesting kind of arresting quote I think comes from the Reformation period the the Clement VIII a cardinal said that the greatest of all Product assurance, so it's no small thing and you're absolutely right that Roman Catholic Church in its official teaching Teaches that it's not something that anyone can possess in in any meaningful way and so it's a dividing line for sure and and yet I think the Bible teaches that there is a possibility of Having assurance and and this is of course what the Reformers taught that was so That was so hated in many respects by by the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

I think the book of Hebrews teaches this clearly. Second Peter one Peter talks about you can know these things for sure. If these things are yours in increasing measure, you can know Romans 8 talks about the Spirit's testimony in our hearts you quoted at the beginning first John 5.

What a what a powerful verse that is where John says these things are written that you might know That you have eternal life. And so Yeah, contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. And as you said, in fact the teaching of some Protestants as well the Bible Indicates that we can know that we are believers.

Amen.

Well, let's go through some of the the biblical reasons why you would even make a statement like that because even though we are Reformed all three of us Both you I and my co-host Reverend buzz Taylor are reformed.

We do believe that there is such a thing as false assurance. We are adamantly opposed to those who would deny what has become nicknamed lordship salvation who believe that a person just by mere virtue of some kind of mental assent or recitation of a prayer Will be guaranteed eternal life.

Even if that person immediately after making his profession returns to the pig trough as it were and Just remains in unrepentant wickedness even overtly and scandalous wickedness and even atheism and apostasies of all kinds Until they die there are evangelicals who say well I remember when brother so-and-so walked the aisle so we don't really have to worry about whether or not he's Going to hell or not.

I mean, that's absolutely not only unbiblical unbiblical, but isn't it anti biblical and even absurd? I.

Agree I mean So the first thing I would want to say with respect to assurance is that that we can know but then the second thing I Would want to say right on the heels of that is that the Bible warns us about the danger of false assurance I mean the most the most I think maybe Obvious passage where where we see this is in Matthew chapter 7 where where Jesus says not everyone who says to me Lord Lord Will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father on that day many will say to me Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

And then I will declare them. I never knew you. Apart from me you workers of lawlessness and we see there that there the Lord is is telling us that on the last day there will be those who thought of themselves as Believers thought of themselves as connected with him based on the things that they had done or you know As you said maybe a hand that was raised or a prayer that was prayed and and he says I never knew you.

We see this throughout the Old Testament with the nation of Israel again and again, they're relying on things like their Ethnicity and the prophets remind them. No, this is no guarantee of Your genuine salvation.

So exactly right. There is a possibility of Firm assurance and the Bible gives us that I hold that out there and and we can preach that and have that. And yet there is also the reality that you can have false assurance and and sadly I'm sure there are many people in churches who have that kind of assurance.

They they walk down an aisle once they recited and then they're told now you never need to think about this again because You're now safe forever and that is false assurance. So would you say that?

Although we are fallible people Who err constantly in sin daily. Would you say that although we do not have infallible insurance that we have sufficient assurance. Would that be the way we could describe this?

I think we we can.

For certain I mean, you know that there are a couple different things that the Bible tells us to look to. I think one of the things the Bible tells us to look to is is our lives. And you know again this takes us back to 2nd Peter 1 where he gives these in life we might think of them as the fruit of the Spirit and and He says listen if you see this in your life, then you can have assurance.

I think the Bible also talks about the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. See, that's the thing Chris if you talk about it just in terms of what we can know That's leaving out the fact that the Bible says Genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and Paul says in Romans 8 the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God and This is that if we were to look at a book like first John There are a number of different tests that are given in first John one of which is has to do with our Behavior one of which has to do with our love for God and our love for others and then one of which has to do with Our belief in God's Son.

Jesus said the one who comes to me I will not cast out and I will raise him up on the last day. So the Bible gives us three different angles of approach same assumption, which is Yes, we can know that we are children of God.

We can know that we are Genuine believers who will be raised up on the last day. Why don't you go through those three approaches? Yeah, the three that I would mention just to sort of restate them would be one I think we can we can and and should look at our lives and that's not infallible and any of us who have any sense of ourselves know that there are many ways in which a very Significant hold on us and and and we are we are still sinners Simultaneously justified sinner Martin Luther said but but nonetheless with that with that said we do need to look at our lives again, second Peter one he lists out characteristics and then says At the end of it all if these things are yours and and are increasing then you can you can Know that that you are calling an election is is confirmed.

So one would be our lives. The second would be the Spirit's testimony to us and this is Sort of difficult can be looked at as but again for that I would look at Romans 8 where Paul says in verses 15 and 16 the Spirit testifies to our spirit That we are children of God and then and thirdly I would look at is sort of you might call it the test of Belief you can sort of look at yourself and say who am I trusting in for my salvation and we have promises from Jesus that if we come to him in faith and We are Trusting in him leaning on him alone for our salvation for our right standing that in fact Confident that he will make good on his promises to us and Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.

You know, I think a lot of the problem though is if people are thinking that I am born again because I Prayed no prayer or whatever. There is always that room for doubt like well What if I weren't genuine enough when I said that you know, yes.

You have to not understand how you got your salvation in the first place. I think to really get into doubting it.

Well, that's a great point buzz and I mean I think a lot of us who grew up in the church Or have been in the church for a long time have had that experience. We think did I really mean it and. And you're exactly right.

That's asking the wrong question because Meaning it or or really raising your hand with authority wasn't the issue to begin with. And so we can tie ourselves up at knots on that and I think the sound advice That to give to yourself or others at that point is look to Jesus Christ.

Look to him. Trust in him. You're looking at that point when you're asking the question the way you framed it. You're looking at what you did and the whole point is it's not what you did about what Christ has done.

Well, we have some listeners already That have questions for you, Jonathan. We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and I'm enlarging me. I'm enlarging the font on Gordy's email because it's microscopic and I can't read it.

He says Catholic answers apologist Tim Staples has stated regarding this text. I'm assuming he means the one that we mentioned earlier first John 5 13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know That you have eternal life first John 5 15 5 13.

Tim Staples of Catholic answers says. Certainly our certain Certainty of our salvation is not absolute because according to 1st John 1 Verses 8 through 9 unconfessed sin will not be forgiven.

How would you refute this obvious twisting of Scripture. Depends what you mean by absolute? I do think it's it is the case that Christians can go through periods. Real Christians I'm talking about real genuine believers who will in fact be saved and are saved.

The real Christians can go through periods of doubt where their assurance is diminished. So if what you mean is that there can be an ebb and flow in a real Christian's life in terms of their assurance, that's true, but in but when you.

But but with respect to 1st John 1 9 and you know unconfessed sin being Unforgiven. No, I I think that's that's. That's not talking in 1st John 1 9 about our ultimate salvation. John there in 1st John 1 9 is talking about the Christian life and our need to confess our sins to the Lord.

And in at but as a Christian we're confessing that since it's not a question of Confession in order that I might now be able to get into heaven because I've remembered to confess this sin. It's confession.

Because we have a relationship with him as our father and we're coming to him through the Lord Jesus Christ already as believers.

You know, even the most ardent Roman Catholic Has got to Understand that the human mind cannot possibly remember all of our sins if they truly believe that man Is as sinful as even they would claim he is.

I mean, it's ridiculous to think that if you if you were.

Know that. That's exactly right. Chris is well put. I mean, there's no way if our salvation yours or mine was dependent on us remembering Everything that we had done to violate God's law many things of which by the way, we are not even aware.

Right, then you would be in very well. We would we would have no hope.

Right, and of course as Jesus points out That the biggest mistake of the Pharisees or one of them is that they were looking purely at physical and more scandalous Sins Seen by the eye and heard with the ears and so on rather than the mind as Jesus pointed out that even Lusting after a woman is adultery.

Right. Yep. No exactly. And if it was dependent on you and me to sort out Everything that's ever every thought that's ever crossed through our minds that is not Compatible with who God is and what he's revealed to us of.

Himself and his word. We would have no hope we're going to a break right now. And if anybody would like to join us We still have a couple of people waiting for their questions to be asked and answered and we will get to you as soon as Possible.

God willing if anybody else would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I Am Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens.

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Pastoral Care, False Assurance, and the Means of Grace

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is Jonathan master and he is professor of theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing assurance. How can fallible men know we are saved if you'd like to join us on the air with a question? Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And we have another question from Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and I'm enlarging her email as well because it's microscopic and Rose says I just lost a friend yesterday a young woman who was only 28, but had suffered Most of her life with chronic illness.

I have full assurance of my own salvation. But I find that the lack of assurance that I have in the salvation of others is very disconcerting. And such as the case of my dear friend How do I find peace or do I find peace when a loved one passes yet?

I don't know. Absolutely if they were say they are saved or were saved. That's an excellent question. That's something that I think eventually the older we get Every one of us as Christians is going to eventually face this Dilemma and in fact might face it numerous times throughout our lives especially as I said the older we get the more people we will Watch depart from this earth.

Just because that is the natural progress of life as we grow older the more people that we know we're going to pass on so.

If you could answer Rose is very excellent question. Yeah Rose. That's an outstanding question and a very difficult one it it it it relates not only to friends who have died, but also It's a pastoral question within the church.

You have to Assess people's spiritual condition as best you can and and this is an area where we have to admit Real fallibility the Bible doesn't guarantee that you or I can know What someone else's spirit tradition is the Bible does give us that?

Confidence for ourselves, but not for others. So, you know, there is there is a certain sense of which I can't I can't type tie that up neatly with a bow Except to say that I would look at some of the same kinds of things that the Bible Tells us to look for in our own lives.

So so perhaps Rose with your your friend you might you might Comfort yourself if in fact she did profess to you that she was trusting in Christ for her Salvation that she was leaning on him for her Standing with God you could you can you can I think draw some comfort from Perhaps fruit that you saw born in her life by the Holy Spirit that might that might again give you that kind of Hope and then you could look as well at You know what what it was that she might have Articulated about about her own experience with the Lord.

And so again, those are that that's a difficult It's not it's not too distant from the question that pastors have to ask themselves when they receive someone into the church. They have to say is this a genuine? profession of faith and so We just we just do our best to use the biblical guideline in the biblical grid with that.

But the other thing I would say is this in the overall scheme of things at this point you you need to remind yourself of Of the goodness of God and of the sovereignty of God and and lean into him and for and for strength, so Can't fully answer it Rose.

But but that's perhaps the best advice I could give, you know, it's interesting how those who would.

Insist. We cannot know That or have even assurance that we are Saved and Yet the Apostle Paul in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 starting with verse 13 comforts Christians with at least a Sufficient assurance.

It's not infallible when we when you're speaking of other people, especially. But he gives these people these Christians a sufficient assurance that those who they knew or at least had heard of Who were Christians who perished.

Paul.

Comforts them with these words, but we do not want you to be uninformed brethren about those who are asleep. So that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again Even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord that we who are alive and Remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel and with a trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and Remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord therefore comfort one another. With these words now as I said, even though we are fallible Humans and we sin and we err and we are not omniscient We still obviously are to have some kind of a sufficient assurance and not to be plagued with Terror and fear that our Christian brethren are lost or We are that we're not to be traumatized by doubt.

We are to take a hold in the fact that if they did Believe in Christ and that he rose again that we will meet them again one day. Isn't that true?

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean if we if we are. That's that's great comfort that we can take when Christian brothers and sisters fall asleep in the Lord. Or that's I'm gonna the language Paul uses but we could say they die.

That is the comfort the end hope that we have so that we don't grieve like those who have. No, hope so. You're absolutely right when Christian brothers and sisters die. Those are the kinds of passages we need to be reminding ourselves of consistently and Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.

Among these lines them. I'm sure that you've had the experiences I have either in dealing with individuals or even as a result of preaching the gospel. Where somebody will come up and say I'm not sure I'm saying they are doubting their salvation.

I Know traditionally we take them to 1st John 5 13. And I've seen this happen so many times where they'll read it or have them read it these things. You know I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

If you might know you have eternal life now. Do you believe in the name of the Son of God? And of course if they're concerned at all about their salvation, they're gonna say well, yes, of course I do.

Oh, well, then you're saved. Then, you know, you have no reason to doubt but in today's climate of evangelism I think there is a great possibility that people who doubt their salvation are doubting. It's simply because they have never actually been converted because they never actually heard an actor presentation of the gospel and I think that we do an injustice to the person by trying to give them an assurance before we do some kind of Checkup on them to see why should I believe first of all that they are saved?