July 18, 2017 Show with Jonathan Master on “Assurance: How Can Fallible Men Know We Are Saved?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now, here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron

sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all happy Tuesday on this 18th day of

July 2017 in the first epistle of John chapter 5

verse 13 We read these things I have written to you who believe in the name of

the Son of God.

So that you may know that you have eternal life, but how can fallible men know

we are saved.

Well, we're going to be talking about assurance today.

With Jonathan master who is a returning guest to iron sharpens iron Professor of theology and Dean of the

School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

Editorial director for the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and host of the Alliance podcast

Theology on the go is also author of a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance

after the Westminster Confession and we are discussing the subject of assurance as I said, and it's my honor and

privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Jonathan master.

Thanks, Chris.

Thanks buzz.

Good to be back on with you.

And as he just mentioned in studio We have the Reverend buzz Taylor as my co -host.

And it's great to have you.

Better for you not for anybody else.

If anybody would like to join us with a question.

For our guest Jonathan master on assurance our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA if you need to remain anonymous for any particular reason,

perhaps you are Doubting your own salvation.

You don't want anybody to know about it or you're doubting somebody else.

The salvation of somebody else that you know and love perhaps even your pastor.

You're wondering if he's saved and you want to remain anonymous.

Well, obviously We would grant that request and in fact if it's dealing

with somebody else we would insist that that be the case and Otherwise, please

though if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us your first name city and state and country of

residence and That email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris ar n ze n at gmail .com.

Well Jonathan There's been something remarkable going on here at iron sharpens iron radio.

There are new listeners contacting me.

Nearly every single day sometimes multiple times a day people I've never heard from before and There

seems to have been a real breakthrough in our listener our listenership

expanding at least That they're contacting me.

Some of these new listeners are really should I say new?

Contactors or if that's a Grammatically correct phrase or people who have contacted me for

the first time but have listened for quite a while and others.

You have just discovered the program and have fallen in love with it.

But because of the fact that there are new listeners that have never heard you on the program.

Why don't you let our listeners know?

About the Cairn University since.

Even though I should say we've already had you do that before.

There may be those that have never heard of you or care.

Yeah, I'm glad to always talk about Cairn.

So Cairn University has been around for a little over a hundred years now and Offers a wide

variety of majors.

It's a Christian university just outside of Philadelphia in Bucks County and Langhorne, Pennsylvania and

As I said, we offer a wide number of degrees.

But every student here also takes 30 hours almost a major's worth of

Bible and theology.

So in addition to whatever it is, they're studying.

Some students are here to study theology, but in addition to that The students who are here to study something

else and major in something else are studying Bible and

theology so Master of Arts Master of Divinity and a THM in this in the School of Divinity

here but they're undergrads and And and and so

Bible and theology kind of infuses all their classes.

So yeah privileged to be here and we always love meeting prospective students

talking to people who are students or graduates who are scattered really throughout the world and.

The website for Cairn University is Cairn Edu that's C a I R n

Dot edu and now I'll let our listeners know something about the Alliance of confessing

Evangelicals.

For those of our listeners who are discovering that for the first time as well and your podcast theology

on the go.

Yeah, so the Alliance of confessing evangelicals essentially grew out of the ministry of James

Montgomery Boyd and It's a coalition of pastors and scholars and churchmen

who hold to the historic creeds and confessions Of the Reformed faith and

and are we seek to proclaim biblical doctrine in order to foster a Reformed awakening in today's church.

So people from many different denominations, but committed to the creedal tradition

and praying and working towards the end of a Reformation really a rediscovery

of the Sufficiency of Scripture and of the truths of the record.

A podcast in particular is called theology on the go usually about 10 to 15 minutes.

We take one issue and one guest and I interview them and we talk about it.

And so it's a good way to introduce yourself to Theological topics that you might not know about.

We try to really make sure we define all the terms and Make everything as clear as possible and you kind of listen

to it on your commute or on your job.

Or you're walking your dog.

That can be accessed through iTunes and also via placefortruth .org.

Which is an Alliance website that has all kinds of helpful articles and resources.

For for Christian people so it find out more you can go to alliancenet .org.

That's sort of the big Alliance site or if you want to get a placefortruth .org.

That's where you can access theology on the go or like I said by iTunes.

Yeah, I'll be mentioning this later.

But God willing I am going to be at the next local

Alliance of confessing evangelicals event here in the Pennsylvania area.

I'm God willing going to be at the Quakertown conference on Reform Theology at

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown on the theme for still our ancient foe

Obviously a reference to Satan in the classical Reformation hymn by Martin

Luther a mighty fortress.

And Speakers that will be on the roster there God willing our Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles

Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

That's November 17th through the 18th.

And if anybody wants to join us at that conference go to alliancenet .org as

Our guest Jonathan had just mentioned alliancenet .org click on events and then click on Quakertown

conference on Reform Theology.

But we'll be repeating that later on today During the broadcast.

Well, this is certainly an issue that divides Brethren in Christ

you have those that believe that Since God is the one

that initiated and actually Created new life in us He

will certainly be the finisher of our faith as well.

He will preserve us Until we leave this earth and enter glory

not that we would be preserved in perfection But he will pervert preserve us that we would

not utterly Apostatize or that we would abandon a

Christ although during the journey Many Christians have fallen

but have always if they have been truly regenerate Gotten up by the grace of God and

repented of the sin They fell into and their lives are marks with marked with repentance

and then you have on the other end of the spectrum you have those that believe that a

genuinely born -again believer May indeed lose his or her salvation

and some would even go as far as calling the doctrine of perseverance and

preservation of the Saints Otherwise known as eternal security They would call

that the doctrine of demons some of them would go even that far.

And of course, we even have two close friends Who battled over issues like

this?

From the past George Whitfield and John Wesley Who are on the opposite ends of the

theological spectrum on this issue?

But still considered themselves to be brothers in Christ and in fact

George Whitfield requested John Wesley pray at his funeral when he passed and it's and that's

eventually what did occur but This is an important issue.

Is it not and even though we can Forgive our brothers and be patient with them for

having an erroneous view.

It's still very serious, isn't it?

And I think there are two aspects of it and you mentioned both of them in your introduction.

One is the the promises the very real promises We have in Scripture that Christians will be

preserved if you're a genuine believer that you'll you'll persevere to the end.

I think that's an incredibly important doctrine and and in fact is is Kind of at

at the heart of some of the things that Jesus himself says about our salvation.

I think the other issue that's related to it is the what's

your.

Can you know that that is true of you?

So that that this will happen and then there's the

knowledge the assurance that Believers can have that in fact they are

genuinely saved.

Yes, and because of the different theological understandings of

The perseverance and preservation of the Saints those who either believe in it or oppose it

You're going to have a different understanding of assurance.

There are Evangelicals who believe that they cannot

ever know on this earth with certainty that they are saved Roman Catholics will

even call that presumptive presumptive.

The sin of presumption is called in Roman Catholicism, and of course we would not view

those that are Dogmatically faithful to Trent to the actual dogmas of

Roman Catholicism.

We would not view them as brothers in Christ, although we know that there are Catholics who are saved by his grace

But it's not because of their dogma.

It's in spite of it, but this is an interesting issue because

One of the hardest questions, I think that a Person who believes we cannot lose

our salvation has to face Is from the Arminian or Roman Catholic

who says to us?

Well, if you are a sinner and you are fallible and You make

mistakes every day and you don't know infallibly Everything that

is taught in the scripture.

How could you possibly?

Be certain of your own heart when the scriptures themselves say that the heart is desperately wicked who can know it.

How did in fact there were even? Roman Catholics who will say in a rather mocking

fashion That that we are Popes over our own souls because we

claim to have infallible knowledge Over our eternal destiny, but if you could comment on that.

Yeah, first of all, you're absolutely right about the Roman Catholic doctrine.

It's it's very clear in the canons of Trent.

In fact, you know I could sort of quote chapter and verse for you where it says if anyone sayeth that he will

for certain of An absolute and infallible certainty have the great gift of perseverance into the end.

Let him be anathema.

So in other words, they're saying that the one anyone who says that in fact They know that they're going

to be saved is is cursed.

The other thing that's really interesting kind of arresting quote I think comes from the Reformation

period the the Clement VIII a cardinal said that the greatest of all

Product assurance, so it's no small thing

and you're absolutely right that Roman Catholic Church in its official teaching Teaches

that it's not something that anyone can possess in in any meaningful way and so

it's a dividing line for sure and and yet I think the Bible teaches that there is a

possibility of Having assurance and and this is of course what the Reformers taught that was so

That was so hated in many respects by by the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

I think the book of Hebrews teaches this clearly.

Second Peter one Peter talks about you can know these things for sure.

If these things are yours in increasing measure, you can know Romans 8 talks about the Spirit's

testimony in our hearts you quoted at the beginning first John 5.

What a what a powerful verse that is where John says these things are written that you might know That you have

eternal life.

And so Yeah, contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

And as you said, in fact the teaching of some Protestants as well the Bible

Indicates that we can know that we are believers.

Amen.

Well, let's go through some of the the biblical reasons why you would even

make a statement like that because even though we are Reformed all three of us

Both you I and my co -host Reverend buzz Taylor are reformed.

We do believe that there is such a thing as false assurance.

We are adamantly opposed to those who would deny

what has become nicknamed lordship salvation who believe that a person just by mere

virtue of some kind of mental assent or recitation of a prayer

Will be guaranteed eternal life.

Even if that person immediately after making his profession

returns to the pig trough as it were and Just remains in

unrepentant wickedness even overtly and scandalous wickedness and even atheism

and apostasies of all kinds Until they die there are evangelicals who say well I remember when brother

so -and -so walked the aisle so we don't really have to worry about whether or not he's Going to hell or not.

I mean, that's absolutely not only unbiblical unbiblical, but isn't it anti biblical and even absurd?

I.

Agree I mean So the first thing I would want to say with respect to assurance is that that we can know but then the

second thing I Would want to say right on the heels of that is that the Bible warns us about the danger of

false assurance I mean the most the most I think

maybe Obvious passage where where we see this is in Matthew chapter 7 where

where Jesus says not everyone who says to me Lord Lord Will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father on

that day many will say to me Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do

many mighty works in your name?

And then I will declare them.

I never knew you.

Apart from me you workers of lawlessness and we see there that there the Lord is is telling us

that on the last day there will be those who thought of themselves as

Believers thought of themselves as connected with him based on the things that they had done or you know As you said

maybe a hand that was raised or a prayer that was prayed and and he says I never knew you.

We see this throughout the Old Testament with the nation of Israel again and again, they're relying on

things like their Ethnicity and the prophets remind them.

No, this is no guarantee of Your genuine salvation.

So exactly right.

There is a possibility of Firm assurance and the Bible gives us that I hold that out there and

and we can preach that and have that.

And yet there is also the reality that you can have false assurance and and sadly I'm sure there

are many people in churches who have that kind of assurance.

They they walk down an aisle once they recited and then

they're told now you never need to think about this again because You're now safe forever and

that is false assurance.

So would you say that?

Although we are fallible people Who err constantly in sin

daily.

Would you say that although we do not have infallible insurance that we have sufficient assurance.

Would that be the way we could describe this?

I think we we can.

For certain I mean, you know that there are a couple different things that the Bible tells us to look to.

I think one of the things the Bible tells us to look to is is our lives.

And you know again this takes us back to 2nd Peter 1 where he gives these

in life we might think of them as the fruit of the Spirit and and

He says listen if you see this in your life, then you can have assurance.

I think the Bible also talks about the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit.

See, that's the thing Chris if you talk about it just in terms of what we can know That's leaving

out the fact that the Bible says Genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and Paul says in

Romans 8 the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God and This

is that if we were to look at a book like first John

There are a number of different tests that are given in first John one of which

is has to do with our Behavior one of which has to do with our love for God and our love for

others and then one of which has to do with Our belief in God's Son.

Jesus said the one who comes to me I will not cast out and I will raise him up on the last day.

So the Bible gives us three different angles of approach

same assumption, which is Yes, we can know that we are

children of God.

We can know that we are Genuine believers who will be raised up on the last day.

Why don't you go through those three approaches?

Yeah, the three that I would mention just to sort of restate them would be one I think we can we can and and

should look at our lives and that's not infallible and any of us who have any

sense of ourselves know that there are many ways in which a

very Significant hold on us and and and we are we are still

sinners Simultaneously justified sinner Martin Luther said but but

nonetheless with that with that said we do need to look at our lives again, second Peter one

he lists out characteristics and then says At the end of it all if

these things are yours and and are increasing then you can

you can Know that that you are calling an election is is confirmed.

So one would be our lives.

The second would be the Spirit's testimony to us and this is Sort of difficult

can be looked at as but again for that I would look at Romans 8 where Paul

says in verses 15 and 16 the Spirit testifies to our spirit That we are children of God and

then and thirdly I would look at is sort of you might call it the test of

Belief you can sort of look at yourself and say who am I trusting in for my salvation and

we have promises from Jesus that if we come to him in faith and We are Trusting

in him leaning on him alone for our salvation for our right standing that in fact

Confident that he will make good on his promises to us and Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.

You know, I think a lot of the problem though is if people are thinking that I am born again

because I Prayed no prayer or whatever.

There is always that room for doubt like well What if I weren't genuine enough when I said that you know,

yes.

You have to not understand how you got your salvation in the first place.

I think to really get into doubting it.

Well, that's a great point buzz and I mean I think a lot of us who grew up in the church Or have been in

the church for a long time have had that experience.

We think did I really mean it and.

And you're exactly right.

That's asking the wrong question because Meaning it or or really

raising your hand with authority wasn't the issue to begin with.

And so we can tie ourselves up at knots on that and I think the sound advice

That to give to yourself or others at that point is look to Jesus Christ.

Look to him.

Trust in him.

You're looking at that point when you're asking the question the way you framed it.

You're looking at what you did and the whole point is it's not what you did about what Christ

has done.

Well, we have some listeners already That have questions for you, Jonathan.

We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and I'm

enlarging me.

I'm enlarging the font on Gordy's email because it's microscopic and I can't read it.

He says Catholic answers apologist Tim Staples has stated regarding this text.

I'm assuming he means the one that we mentioned earlier first John 5 13.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know That you have

eternal life first John 5 15 5 13.

Tim Staples of Catholic answers says.

Certainly our certain Certainty of our salvation is not absolute

because according to 1st John 1 Verses 8 through 9 unconfessed sin will not be

forgiven.

How would you refute this obvious twisting of Scripture.

Depends what you mean by absolute?

I do think it's it is the case that Christians can go through periods.

Real Christians I'm talking about real genuine believers who will in fact be saved and

are saved.

The real Christians can go through periods of doubt where their assurance is diminished.

So if what you mean is that there can be an ebb and flow in a real Christian's life in

terms of their assurance, that's true, but in but when you.

But but with respect to 1st John 1 9 and you know unconfessed sin being

Unforgiven.

No, I I think that's that's.

That's not talking in 1st John 1 9 about our ultimate salvation.

John there in 1st John 1 9 is talking about the Christian life and our need to

confess our sins to the Lord.

And in at but as a Christian we're confessing that since it's not a question of Confession

in order that I might now be able to get into heaven because I've remembered to confess this sin.

It's confession.

Because we have a relationship with him as our father and we're coming to him through the Lord Jesus Christ

already as believers.

You know, even the most ardent Roman Catholic Has got to Understand

that the human mind cannot possibly remember all of our sins if they truly

believe that man Is as sinful as even they would claim he is.

I mean, it's ridiculous to think that if you if you were.

Know that.

That's exactly right.

Chris is well put.

I mean, there's no way if our salvation yours or mine was dependent on us remembering

Everything that we had done to violate God's law many things of which by the way, we are not even aware.

Right, then you would be in very well.

We would we would have no hope.

Right, and of course as Jesus points out That the biggest mistake of the

Pharisees or one of them is that they were looking purely at physical and

more scandalous Sins Seen by the eye and heard with the

ears and so on rather than the mind as Jesus pointed out that even

Lusting after a woman is adultery.

Right.

Yep.

No exactly.

And if it was dependent on you and me to sort out Everything that's ever every thought that's ever crossed

through our minds that is not Compatible with who God is and what he's revealed to

us of.

Himself and his word.

We would have no hope we're going to a break right now.

And if anybody would like to join us We still have a couple of people waiting for their questions to be asked and answered and we will get to you as soon as

Possible.

God willing if anybody else would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

I Am Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens.

Iron radio.

Here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine My trusted source for news from a Christian

perspective.

Try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of r .c. Sproul's book

relationship between church and state.

I Rely on world because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really Matter.

I believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth That's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on scene reporting from world radio

and the fully shareable content of world digital.

Simply visit Wmg .org Forward slash iron sharpens

to get your world trial and dr. Sproul's book all free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit world news group at Wmg .org.

Forward slash iron sharpens today.

Charles Hedens purging once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves He has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back Treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered Christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com That's solid

ground books .com and see what priceless Literary gems from the past to present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day.

So I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use battery Depot calm for all

your battery needs at battery Depot calm.

They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries.

There are uniformly new dependable and affordable ordering from battery Depot calm.

Ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries.

You can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios PCs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes GPS's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to battery Depot

Calm.

Next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties.

Call.

866 403 3768

that's 866 403 3768 or go to battery

Depot calm.

That's battery Depot calm.

Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WL ie radio

www .wl ie 540 a .m.

Dot -com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the

pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

Have you been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help first Do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their

goods or services on iron sharpens iron radio?

Second whenever possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise and

Then let them know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to iron sharpens iron radio by going to our website at iron sharpens iron

radio Dot -com and click support at the top of the page, but most importantly keep iron

sharpens iron radio in your prayers.

We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

Jonathan master and he is professor of theology and Dean of the School of Divinity at Cairn

University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing assurance.

How can fallible men know we are saved if you'd like to join us on the air with a question?

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And we have another question from Rose in Harrisburg,

Pennsylvania and I'm enlarging her email as well because it's

microscopic and Rose says I just lost a friend yesterday

a young woman who was only 28, but had suffered Most of her life with chronic illness.

I have full assurance of my own salvation.

But I find that the lack of assurance that I have in the salvation of others is very disconcerting.

And such as the case of my dear friend How do I find peace or do I find peace when a

loved one passes yet?

I don't know.

Absolutely if they were say they are saved or were saved.

That's an excellent question.

That's something that I think eventually the older we get Every one of us as Christians is going to

eventually face this Dilemma and in fact might face it numerous times throughout our

lives especially as I said the older we get the more people we will

Watch depart from this earth.

Just because that is the natural progress of life as we grow older the more people that we know we're going to pass on so.

If you could answer Rose is very excellent question.

Yeah Rose.

That's an outstanding question and a very difficult one it it it it relates not

only to friends who have died, but also It's a

pastoral question within the church.

You have to Assess people's spiritual condition as best you can and and this is

an area where we have to admit Real fallibility the Bible doesn't guarantee that you or

I can know What someone else's spirit tradition is the Bible does give us

that?

Confidence for ourselves, but not for others.

So, you know, there is there is a certain sense of which I can't I can't type tie that up

neatly with a bow Except to say that I would look at some of the same kinds of

things that the Bible Tells us to look for in our own lives.

So so perhaps Rose with your your friend you might you might Comfort yourself

if in fact she did profess to you that she was trusting in Christ

for her Salvation that she was leaning on him for her Standing with God

you could you can you can I think draw some comfort from Perhaps fruit that you saw born in her life by

the Holy Spirit that might that might again give you that kind of Hope and then you

could look as well at You know what what it was that she might have

Articulated about about her own experience with the Lord.

And so again, those are that that's a difficult It's not it's not

too distant from the question that pastors have to ask themselves when they receive someone into the church.

They have to say is this a genuine? profession of faith and so We just

we just do our best to use the biblical guideline in the biblical grid with that.

But the other thing I would say is this in the overall scheme of things at this point you you need to

remind yourself of Of the goodness of God and of the sovereignty of God

and and lean into him and for

and for strength, so Can't fully answer it

Rose.

But but that's perhaps the best advice I could give, you know, it's interesting how those who

would.

Insist.

We cannot know That or have even assurance that we are Saved

and Yet the Apostle Paul in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 starting

with verse 13 comforts Christians with at least

a Sufficient assurance.

It's not infallible when we when you're speaking of other people, especially.

But he gives these people these Christians a sufficient assurance that those who they knew

or at least had heard of Who were Christians who perished.

Paul.

Comforts them with these words, but we do not want you to be uninformed brethren about those who

are asleep.

So that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again Even so God will bring with him those who have fallen

asleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord that we who are alive and

Remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep for the Lord

himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel and with a trumpet of God and

the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and Remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds

to meet the Lord in the air.

And so we shall always be with the Lord therefore comfort one another.

With these words now as I said, even though we are fallible Humans and we sin and

we err and we are not omniscient We still obviously are to have some kind of

a sufficient assurance and not to be plagued with Terror and fear that our

Christian brethren are lost or We are that we're not to be

traumatized by doubt.

We are to take a hold in the fact that if they did Believe in Christ and that he rose again

that we will meet them again one day.

Isn't that true?

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean if we if we are.

That's that's great comfort that we can take when Christian brothers and sisters fall asleep in the Lord.

Or that's I'm gonna the language Paul uses but we could say they die.

That is the comfort the end hope that we have so that we don't grieve like those who have.

No, hope so.

You're absolutely right when Christian brothers and sisters die.

Those are the kinds of passages we need to be reminding ourselves of consistently and Reverend Buzz Taylor

has something to say.

Among these lines them.

I'm sure that you've had the experiences I have either in dealing with individuals or even as a result of preaching the

gospel.

Where somebody will come up and say I'm not sure I'm saying they are doubting their salvation.

I Know traditionally we take them to 1st John 5 13.

And I've seen this happen so many times where they'll read it or have them read it these things.

You know I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

If you might know you have eternal life now.

Do you believe in the name of the Son of God?

And of course if they're concerned at all about their salvation, they're gonna say well, yes, of course I do.

Oh, well, then you're saved.

Then, you know, you have no reason to doubt but in today's climate of evangelism I think there is a

great possibility that people who doubt their salvation are doubting.

It's simply because they have never actually been converted because they never actually heard an actor presentation of the gospel

and I think that we do an injustice to the person by trying to give them an assurance before we do

some kind of Checkup on them to see why should I believe first of all that they are

saved?

Do well, you know, you know, it's a great point buzz and you know, one of the things that's interesting to me and

really was Perhaps what?

Started making me think about this even more was studying what some pastors and theologians in the past

and I was looking particularly at The English Puritan what they said when they were confronted with exactly that

question.

You're right.

We've all had it if we've been in the ministry.

We've all had people come up and say just those things and what I found fascinating was What you just laid out which is

maybe common practice in a lot of churches you take him to this one verse.

You ask him a quick question and then you basically just say so stop doubting, you know.

Stop thinking about this was not at all what the practice was in the 17th century.

But they did instead if they said well, let's dig into this a little bit.

Because they didn't want to give someone false assurance.

Talking about life and death issue.

I don't want to just have someone come to me.

I don't want a doctor who who sees me and says no, you can't possibly have

cancer.

You know and just ask me one or two questions if if there's a possibility that I have cancer.

I want them running the test and doing the diagnosis and looking at the numbers or

Or whatever they need to do similarly.

I think as spiritual physicians as spiritual.

You know Surgeons what we want to do is when someone comes to us with that kind of a question.

All right now I want to really let's get let's diagnose this.

Because if nothing else even if they are genuine believers and they're just going through a period of doubt because of a

maybe.

You know, they're their conscience is bothering him for one thing or another.

I.

Want to walk them through that because what a tremendous opportunity for spiritual growth.

And then if they're not genuine Christian I agree with you buzz.

I think most of the time they may not be because they don't understand what believe means and so they just

assume believe means.

You know, I I said I checked off.

Yes on a card.

No, that's not what the gospel is.

And so It's it's an important opportunity for me to really dig deeply into the gospel with

them, right?

And even first John 5 13 I believe the solution there is.

What things were written that you may know that you have eternal life.

And you've already.

That's right.

I have a sermon that I preached all over the place that I broke down about seven things in First John that are

written that you might know you have eternal life.

Yes.

Yes, it's the whole book.

Not just the one.

It's a great way of looking at it buzz and I bet if any of our listeners did that and went through the book First John

they would find things as well.

And some of those things it has to be said some of those things are Behavioral things.

Yes anything, you know, some of them are are do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the place?

But some of them are.

Good work.

Yeah, well, you know even things like you know.

We know we've passed out of death and delight because we love the brethren, you know.

If we don't love the brethren, we're a murderer.

And you know, no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

I mean, that's the way it's worded there, you know, yeah.

Exactly, so you're right.

I mean, I think the problem with using that just that verse in isolation is it takes out what

John spent the whole letter doing?

Mm -hmm is actually giving us these tests in it.

I like the idea or the image of going into it to see a doctor because I think what doctors with good doctors are

doing.

Whether you see them doing it or they're just doing it in their brains while you're talking.

Is there kind of going through a list of symptoms tell them your symptoms?

Okay this and they sort of rule out certain things they're not relevant and then certain things.

Wait a minute tell me a little more about that because that's important and I think we can do that and we should do that with

ourselves and With with people who would come to us with that question.

Well, somebody has come to us with this question Jeff in Clinton Township

Michigan and he did not request to remain anonymous.

So I Mentioned his name his first name.

Anyway, he says I wrestle with the worry of being self -deluded or deceived in regards

to my salvation.

Quite often and I don't know if I'll ever come to the place of being rid of this uncertainty.

Until that day comes I hang on John 6 verse 37 for my assurance as weak

as it is.

All that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me.

I will certainly not cast out if you could comment.

Jonathan well, Jeff I you know, I'm so grateful to hear that testimony.

Because That a couple reasons one I think in contrast to the kind of thing

buzz was talking about where people sort of have it to a false assurance.

You you don't you don't have that.

So I praise the Lord that you're you're being really discerning I also am so grateful to hear that

you're looking at Jesus words in John 6.

That's probably if if you came to me and we had a chance to sit down over a cup of coffee and talk about it

More that's probably the very first text.

I would I would want to encourage you with I think there are times in our lives for various reasons

Where we just do really question this we don't the sort of inward Testimony of the Spirit

and and unhelpful and see

sin and and it's at those moments.

Especially that I would want to say look to Jesus look to the promises He made which is

exactly what you're doing and and exactly what I would continue to urge you to do.

I will say one other thing though as well Jeff that that might might be of some use to you.

I hope it I hope it will be I think too that we can grow in our assurance as

well by participation in The body of Christ and you know what the older theologians

would have called us.

The Lord is one

whereby I think he does Confirm in us and reassure us of of

the promises of the gospel.

And so I hope that in addition to clinging to John 6, which I hear you doing and I

I keep doing it I would also say Jeff cling to cling to Jesus promises and

cling to what he's given you in the local church.

And continue to participate in that and and and benefit from that.

Well, thank you so much Jeff.

And thank you for your honesty and Keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio in Michigan

and beyond.

There there is a truth that Even Charles Spurgeon has

mentioned in the past where someone could be so

Sensitive in a positive way about sin and so aware of their own sin

that it drives them at times to doubt their Salvation even if they are truly

regenerate and that is actually in some ways a positive sign.

Is it not even though that the person may be? Unnecessarily robbing themselves of the peace that

they should have it's still a good sign that they are concerned About their behavior

and and looking upon themselves as unworthy.

Am I right?

I.

Agree, and you know that it's I think can be a difficult thing for

someone to struggle with.

You know, I would also I talked about the means of grace and I would also say continue in prayer.

You know to someone like Jeff continue in prayer.

The Lord can really use that means in your life.

But yeah, Chris to answer your question I do think it can be a positive sign and it's very interesting.

A lot of people have pointed this out.

If you look at the Apostle Paul's letters in chronological order and you look at how he referred to himself.

You know, he talks about himself as you know The least of the Apostles and it's gonna think when you get to

his final letter, he calls himself the chief of sinners.

So it's almost as if you you know The longer he lives as a Christian and the

more he grows the more aware he is of his own.

Sinfulness, I don't think Paul was was, you know sliding away in any sense.

I it seems to me as if he's growing in grace.

I know he was growing in grace, but yet part of growing in grace is actually growing in Awareness

sometimes of our own sinfulness one one pastor friend of mine has used this illustration.

It's not original with me, but you know, if you dust a room it can look like it's pretty clean.

But then if the sunlight shines in through the window directly on the place where you just dusted what happens.

We see all kinds of particles flowing and floating in the air.

You see all kinds of things you didn't actually get as clean as you thought you had and I think there's an analogy there with

the way it works in our lives as the light of God's Word and Continues

in our hearts.

We see more dirt and dust and and that's not a negative thing.

That's a positive thing.

That we have a growing awareness of our own sinfulness.

Yes, and I believe Reverend buzz has something to say but we're gonna take what you have to say when we return from the break as they're gonna go to a break right now

and If anybody would like to join us and we still have a number of you who

have contacted us and we will get to you God willing as Time allows but if anybody

else wants to join us with a question if we have time to have Jonathan answer it.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris a r n z e n

at gmail .com and please give us at least your first name.

Your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and By the way, many of you

may be wondering why I constantly repeat that that's because I frequently get emails that don't Have the person

city and state and country and we want to get an idea of where our listeners are Listening

to us but We are going to be back after these messages.

This is our elongated gap or break to comply with Grace life

radio in Lake City, Florida that requires a minimum of 12 minutes gap between our two segments.

So we will be back after this break with more of assurance With

our guest Jonathan master, so please don't go away.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

coffee shops and local hangouts Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the

lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement To youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above.

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at six three one three eight five eight three

three three.

That's six three one three eight five eight three three three.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving South

Central, Pennsylvania.

Solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering Understanding and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath

remodeling decks porches windows and doors Roof and siding and

more for a clear detailed professional estimate.

Call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand to

the test of time.

Call solid rock remodeling at seven one seven six nine seven.

1981.

Seven one seven six nine seven 1981 or visit solid rock

remodeling calm that solid rock remodeling calm solid rock

remodeling Bringing new life to your home.

Are you a Christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial.

We're not your typical financial services provider.

We're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4 million members be wise

with money.

We provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most.

We help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship.

Learn more about the thriving story by contacting me Mike Gallagher financial consultant at

seven one seven two five four six four three three again seven one seven two five

four six four three three.

Lending faith finances and generosity.

That's the private story.

I

Heard

of box store.

Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching perhaps?

You've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience Featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at six three one nine two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one

nine two nine thirty five twelve or check out their website at wrbc

.us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers.

The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages.

Which the NASB is known for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy.

The new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compacted giant print Bibles find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the

21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.

Hi I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can.

Be call in Brook Baptist at five one six five nine nine nine four zero two.

That's five one six five nine nine nine four zero two or visit Linbrook Baptist org.

That's Linbrook Baptist org.

Chef exclusive catering is in South Central, Pennsylvania.

Chef exclusives goals to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate.

Chef Damian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned Johnson and Wales University with a degree in

culinary arts and applied science.

Chef exclusive caterings event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for

small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest

expectations I know of their quality firsthand since chef exclusive catered by most recent iron

sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon.

For details call 7 1 7 3 8 8 3 thousand.

That's 7 1 7 3 8 8 3 thousand or visit chef exclusive calm.

That's chef exclusive.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsin.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with an hour to go is

Jonathan master professor of theology and Dean of the School of Divinity that at Cairn University in

Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

We have been discussing and will continue to discuss assurance.

How can fallible men know we are saved if you'd like to join us on the air?

Our email address is Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

And by the way, Jonathan, I forgot to mention to you that I was forwarding to you a question actually two questions

from Jenny and Ben Salem Pennsylvania.

Did you get those questions?

I did Chris.

Yeah, I got him.

Okay, great.

And we will have you go to those questions after a few announcements and after the Reverend Buzz

Taylor has to say something.

But right now I just need to make a couple of important announcements from our sponsors.

The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is pleased to announce that the Word of Truth

Bible Institute Will be offering two free classes this summer the book of Romans and Old Testament

survey.

Romans will meet on July 19th and July 26th from 7

to 9 p .m.

And the Old Testament survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st from

7 to 9 p .m.

With the exception of July 19th, which will be from 5 to 7 p .m the location

of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is 1055 Portion

Road in Farmingville and you must register by calling pastor Bruce Bennett at

Area code 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 14 6 3 1 8 0

6 0 6 14 even though the Romans class has already started.

New students are still welcome.

The Word of Truth Church website is WOT church .com that's WOT

for word of truth church .com.

WOT church .com then coming up next month only a couple of weeks away

August 3rd through the 5th.

The Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine and the

speakers at this conference include Pastor Don Curran of HeartCry Missionary Society, which

is the organization founded by Paul Washer.

My friend pastor Mac Tomlinson was an author and pastor of the

Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Jesse Barrington who's been a guest on this program as well he is the pastor

of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City,

Florida who has the radio station in Florida that airs Iron Sharpens Iron radio

daily in a pre -recorded form.

And pastor Nate Pickowitz who we've also had on the program Who is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont

and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and he is the author of Reviving New England that we

Discussed with him the last time he was on.

He's also the author of a new book that we God willing will be interviewing him on in the near future.

Why we're Protestants or why we're Protestant I should say if you'd like to

register for The Fellowship Conference New England go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

Fellowshipconferencenewengland .com then as I mentioned earlier at the outset of this program.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology from

November 17th through the 18th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

That's November 17th through the 18th.

The theme is for still our ancient foe Reference to Satan in the classic

hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress.

If you would like to join me there at the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology Go

to Alliancenet .org Alliancenet .org click on events and then click on Quakertown

Conference on Reform Theology.

Then we have coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th.

The G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

The theme is knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship and.

The.

17th January 17th.

This will be exclusively a Spanish speaking edition of the conference from the 18th through the 20th.

Will be the English version of the conference.

Featuring such speakers as Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty,

HB Charles Jr Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia,

Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you would like to register go to G3conference .com G3conference .com and please

if you are Registering for any of these events or if you're merely contacting the organizations running these

events for more details.

Please always mention that you heard about these events from Chris Arnzen of Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio and Now again, I have to do the thing that I hate doing the

most.

In fact, it's the only thing I hate doing during my broadcast and that's asking you for money.

And the reason I do that is because those who are already advertising with me have urged me

to make public appeals for donations to further ensure that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio will remain on the air

and As I always say or I tried to remember to always say Never ever

ever siphon money out of your giving to your local church.

Nor do I want to take money or should I say take food?

Off of your family's dinner table if you are struggling to get by or make ends meet.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and providing for your family.

Iron Sharpens Iron is not among the commands of God that you support but if you are blessed

above and beyond your ability to obey those commands and you have Extra resources

financially to give to us, especially if you love this show.

It's a if it's a part of your regular habit if it's been a blessing to you if it's edified you if you've learned

from it.

Well, if you have those extra funds, please consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our

website Iron Sharpens Iron radio .com.

Iron Sharpens Iron radio .com click on support and you will be given an address where you can mail a check for any

amount made out To Iron Sharpens Iron radio and if you want to advertise with us whether it is your

church your parachurch ministry your business.

Your corporation your professional practice such as if you're a doctor a dentist

a lawyer a chiropractor.

Whether it's a special event that you're Orchestrating.

Well, as long as whatever you're doing is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

We would love to hear from you and our email address is iron sharpens.

I'm sorry.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

And put advertising in the subject line.

That is also the email address where you can send in a question for Jonathan master on assurance our

discussion for today chris arnzen at gmail .com and

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter now Reverend Buzz

Taylor my co -host had something that he wanted to bring up.

Yes.

I want to go back to Jeff for a moment here and see if this can pop back to where to our

Questioner Jeff.

Oh, okay.

Yes, and as far as his Doubting whether he's truly come to faith.

Well, I.

Like to refer to this as applied Calvinism and it's found in 2nd Peter 1.

Now, I'm gonna give you the last part.

I'm certainly not gonna expound on this whole text.

It would simply take too long, but I just want to I want you to pay attention.

This came up earlier, but I want to put it a little bit under the magnifying glass.

It says If these qualities are yours and are increasing they render

you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For he lacks these qualities as blind or short -sighted having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Therefore brethren be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing you.

For as long as you practice these things you will never stumble.

For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly

supplied to you.

Now I gave you the last part so you can see he's talking about making your election as the King James Version words it make your

election.

Sure.

Well, what is he talking about?

Well, he starts up in in Verse 5 for now for this very reason also applying

with all diligence in your faith supply moral excellence.

And he goes through adding to moral excellence knowledge to knowledge self -control self -control

perseverance.

And he goes through this list.

What I would suggest doing is making a study of this this chapter for a while find out what each one of those things is Actually

talking about and even the context, you know where it says for this very reason what reason

it's the stuff that he said before.

So make a study of this chapter and I think it will help you to gain a lot of victory in your life.

Thanks a lot buzz.

That was excellent.

Well now we will go to the two questions that Jenny from Ben Salem,

Pennsylvania had for you.

Jonathan the first is what is the best answer to give critics?

When I state that I know that I'm saved or of the elect.

The usual criticism is that I am deceived if I think myself saved or how dare I

presume it?

P .s. I don't go around making those statements publicly.

The only times I make that statement usually occurs when someone who is in doubt about their own

salvation asks me.

That's the first question.

Yeah, Jenny.

We're we're kind of neighbors here.

Ben Salem is not far away from Langhorne, but in any case good good question.

Thanks for asking it.

I think the basic answer that you give in those kinds of situations is I'm simply

Simply trusting in the promises that Jesus himself has given me.

I I'm not saying this in such a way as to elevate myself a

biblical understanding of salvation would actually We we

came in great need we came because we couldn't save ourselves.

So I would just simply say to people listen, I I'm I'm just trusting in what

Jesus has promised.

It's not about something that I've done or any intrinsic Sort of value that I I

have above anyone else.

It's just that I'm I trust that when my Savior said is true

and what the Bible says is true and because I'm confident in what the Bible says

and because I'm confident in what the Lord Jesus Christ has said I Can I can be confident that

what he says to me is is true is right?

And then I think you know that then puts it that that you know.

Then in a sense what you're saying Jenny at that point is listen, your argument isn't with me it's with the Lord

and if you if you think that these This confidence that I have is is in

some way in a front to you.

Well your your issue really isn't with me your issue is With with Jesus

himself with the scriptures himself, which which make these kinds of promises.

Great and we have as her second question What is the most convincing

scriptural argument concerning assurance for an Arminian?

Hmm?

That's interesting.

That's really what we're trying to get at and it's core today regarding to this entire discussion.

Yeah, I don't it's hard to say what the most convincing argument will be.

I think what you'd want to give to them though are these

Statements that we have in the Bible about assurance the ones we've been talking about.

Buzz.

Just did an excellent job of reviewing 2nd Peter chapter 1 Romans chapter 8

Hebrews chapter 6 1st John chapter 5.

These are these are the kinds of texts that I think Can give us Confidence that

this is that this is true of.

You know, the Paul says those who may justify he also glorified.

There's this unbroken chain between between Justification and

glorification and so if if one can be said to be true, then then the other I know will

be true as well.

And so those are the kinds of texts I would look to again.

You know when you talk about what's the most convincing one it almost makes it sound like you know If you give them this verse if

you show them this verse, they'll be convinced.

And the fact is we know that that's often not the case.

But but those are the ones those are some of the ones that I would I would go to.

Well, thank you so much Jenny.

Keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and keep spreading the word in Bensalem, Pennsylvania

and beyond.

We have Joe in Slovenia.

Thank you for the giant font Joe.

Dear brother Chris and John until recently I Assumed that the doctrines of

once saved always saved and the person Perseverance of the Saints were simply two different terms for

the same teaching I was using and explaining once saved always saved in Exactly the

same way as perseverance of the Saints meaning that if one perseveres and sanctification to the end

That is evidence of once saved always saved.

Is this correct the two phrases in some official way contain differing and opposing teachings?

Or can they rightly be understood to be synonymous if they must be understood as incompatible,

please explain Why and how.

Thank you both for your faithful perseverance with us whom you disciple each day through this

program.

Well, that's an excellent question because isn't it?

When it boils down to when you're talking about These two phrases, isn't it that they are both

true?

But once saved always saved is an insufficient Description

because it may lead someone to a false understanding.

Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it I think the trouble the deficiency in the language

of once saved always saved even though it's accurate.

Is that it?

It makes it makes our salvation Seem like it is only

this particular event that happens and then You know, even if

nothing else happens afterwards, even if nothing else ever changes, even if there's no other growth or nothing

You know beyond that it's still it's still real.

So this is this it can get twisted to mean really if you

made a decision once it's good for all eternity, even if you've Turned your back on it

completely even if it was obviously momentary and not genuine, you know that kind of thing.

So it's not technically wrong it is true if you're genuinely saved

then you're the Lord will will cause you to persevere but But it's it's

it's open to all kinds of misunderstandings and maybe twisting

It and because it plays into this Idea of salvation that it's a it is

a momentary decision and that's it.

And of course the doctrine of our salvation the doctrine of what? Jesus Christ has done for us and what God the Holy

Syn regenerating us and sanctifying us and ultimately glorifying us

is Far far greater than just you know, I made a decision once therefore It

sort of is good forever.

That's that's not.

The biblical doctrine of conversion and when you say the same thing in regard to the phrase eternal

security Although reforms people have been known to use it even I've even seen RC Sproul and others

use the term Eternal security, it may be true, but it's not really a sufficient term to just

leave by itself.

I mean you need to further explain what you're talking about because sometimes and Barrett in fact tragically very

often people who Hear the phrase once saved always saved what they

really mean by it.

Is that once you think you're saved that you're always truly saved and they will?

Use that phrase in regard to eternal security as well.

It's because you think that you were saved at one point.

They will say you are truly eternally secure and that's not True.

Well, I mean, it's not always true.

Yeah, that's exactly right, I mean, I think it's one of those phrases once again that is is

correct technically but is open to all kinds of

misleading understandings because Again, it can

lend itself to this notion that salvation is this simply and solely

this Momentary decision that is made and then after that, you know,

all bets are off.

There's almost nothing sort of disconnected from everything else in life and in and in

behavior and in in the work of this ongoing work of the spirit in our lives and that's not

Bible's picture of conversion.

And so yeah, I mean again, it's true to talk about eternal security I would affirm it but

it's not the phrase I tend to use because Because it sort of plays into

this misunderstanding of conversion.

And also going back to once saved always saved there's something flippant about it, isn't there?

I mean, it's it's too much of a catchy buzz phrase or placard that is

given in a very flippant manner as if you're not even to be concerned

about testing your own Life

under a microscope.

You know, Jesus said a good tree bears good fruit.

Therefore we should be Evaluating the fruit that we're bearing and once they've always saved is

almost something that would alleviate Everyone of having any

concern about that even if they are deceiving themselves.

Yeah, it strikes me that same way Chris as a very flippant way of talking about our

salvation.

As if we we did we did our thing and now it's just it's it's we almost we don't have

to think about it anymore.

And and of course you're right.

That's the opposite of the attitude that the Bible prescribes for us.

In fact, we're supposed to be diligent.

We're supposed to work hard.

We're supposed to think about these things and and and beware that we're not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Etc, etc.

And so yeah, it's very transactional and very.

Very much as if something that happened in the past is just sitting out there.

It's always good for all time and I don't know you think about it anymore.

And again, that doesn't mean that the phrase itself is technically wrong.

But I I think you're right that it it is it does kind of create the wrong

impression.

It's almost the kind of phrase that would require the same kind of

Response that James has placed in his epistle.

You say that you believe in one God.

You do well.

But even the demons believe in.

They tremble, you know.

Well, that's a great passage James to says, you know, what good is it if someone says I

have faith but has no works.

I mean, so what's the issue there?

It's someone saying something but then what does that actually do?

If you say be warm to be filled James says does that fill up anyone's belly?

No, it doesn't.

You know, so so I think pretty consistently in the scriptures.

We are we are warned against the possibility of just falsely flippantly saying something.

Paul even talks about worldly repentance.

That has tears Associated with it and yet it's it's not godly sorrow that leads

to real repentance.

It's worldly sorrow that leads to death.

By the way, I'm sure Jeff In Clinton Township, Michigan wouldn't mind me reading this.

He says Pastor buzz.

Thank you for setting me on my way to study second Peter one.

I'm thankful for you and enjoy your humor.

Even when Chris slams you in jest.

You tend to hit.

You tend to handle it.

Well, it's so nice to know there's somebody on my side.

Even though Chris slams you ingest you tend to handle it.

Well and with love and understanding.

It's good for all of us listeners having you as an integral part of iron sharpens iron radio.

That was very nice of Jeff and now buzz can dry his tears.

Thank you so much Jeff, that's very encouraging and.

Let's see what we have.

Some more listeners here that have questions.

We have.

Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina.

And in fact Seth.

I just heard a good report about him.

Another one of our listeners in Greensboro, North Carolina Pastor Sterling

Vanderwerker.

I.

Believe he invited Seth to preach in the congregation there in Greensboro Shepherds Fellowship.

And apparently as Seth did a wonderful job from the pulpit and they sent me a photograph of the two

of them and Seth Says when it comes to the issue of assurance

How would you encourage or rebuke a believer who is struggling with a particular sin?

Whether it is a first time or a number of times this person has been caught or admitted

to a sin.

I think that You know, we we need to

Continually remind ourselves and remind others of the

seriousness on altar calls the sinfulness of sin.

So I think we ought not to take sin lightly or flippantly.

Now I Wouldn't based on what I'm just hearing.

I mean it not not knowing.

It's really hard to advise someone pastorally without knowing all the details, but You know

and as we all do.

I.

Wouldn't immediately play the card of are you sure you're a Christian?

I mean remember 1st John 1 9 remember the context of it.

It's written to believers so that you may know for sure that you have eternal life and yet what does John say?

If you say that you're without sin anyone who says he's without sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him that's 1st

John 1 8 and so I think we do acknowledge that we're weak and and and sinful creatures and we're

we are Charged to encourage one another daily so that we're not hardened

by the deceitfulness of sin.

So certainly would want to the verity of it's not something to take lightly.

It's not something to say.

Oh, well, but I'm safe.

It's okay, that's not at all that that would worry me if that were someone's attitude if their attitude was

it doesn't matter.

That's what I would start to say.

Well, wait a minute.

Do you really understand?

That What it means to be a Christian?

Do you really understand on the cross but

but but when you talk about someone who's struggling with sin and and repenting of sin?

And and but but constantly struggling as we all are it has to be said.

Then I would say, you know, we come alongside one another we help one another we don't

downplay the importance of sin.

We don't say it's no big deal.

We don't say that we but we but we While while taking

since you're in our pilgrim.

Amen, and wouldn't you say that there is a huge difference?

Between one examining themselves Being

fruit inspectors if you will of their own lives, especially and

in compared to the Pelagian treadmill of one being in

constant Apprehension fear and even abject terror possibly

that they are not up to snuff to meriting their

meriting God's favor now.

One thing is for certain they never will I'm never at God's favor if they're on that Pelagian treadmill.

But there is a difference isn't there even if you want to consider?

Someone not in the Church of Rome, but even in an Armenian a five -point

Armenian Evangelical who is really never satisfied with their

performance because they And rightly in one way view themselves as

never being quite Adequate to please God, but when that is

tied in with whether or not they're saved that that could have disastrous results.

And it's a really entirely different thing than being a fruit inspector of your life, isn't it?

Yeah, it really is different and and it gets back to the doctrine of salvation.

You have to remind yourself of what we what we know to be true about our salvation which is it's the work of

Christ and it's new life and Because it's

a work of God.

It's it's never going to be something that's dependent upon My good works or my

faithfulness.

It's going to be dependent on the Lord's work in me and so.

Yeah, I think that makes all the difference in the world when you understand the source And grounds of your

justification, then you can look at yourself seriously critically.

You know in sometimes with tears and and evaluate your own life,

but that's different from from from the kind of introspection that

as you said friction that that.

Attempts to try to discern whether we've done enough in a sense to merit our

salvation.

Now when you also say that morbid introspection is

Can be a dangerous sign of self -absorption.

I mean because if you are constantly in a fetal position in the corner terrified over

your own Election You will be neglecting

Doing your duty as a Christian.

You'll be neglecting serving others as an ambassador of Christ.

You will you know, we will obviously if you're so inward in your in

your life.

A lot will be falling to the wayside as far as a duty of every Christian.

Yeah, it can be paralyzing and you know Pastors who are listening need to be able to

recognize the person who just has a very very sensitive conscience and is therefore

You know Really introspective.

And what do they need?

Well, they need they need the the salve that the ointment if you will of the gospel.

But the promises of God in Christ that Jeff talked about just kind of clinging to John 6 and and

and as a pastor I would want to remind my sensitive Congregants of that constantly and

be comforting them with the promises that Jesus has made.

I will say to be honest and this might just reflect, you know my own experiences or or or

and it may not be true for our listeners, but I Don't think that's generally the bigger

problem today.

There it has been at various periods of church history and it may be for many who are listening now.

We've already heard from a few but but in general I think the far greater problem is the one

that was identified earlier, which is people just assuming presuming That you know

by having done something or having thought so

for now I I can be sure of my sufficient.

I I think that's the bigger.

That's the bigger issue in our day.

But yeah, if if if the other kind of introspection is a struggle then then cling to

Christ, you know something.

Believe it or not. I don't know if you agree with me or not.

But I think what you just said today in the 21st century is even the biggest problem in

the Church of Rome.

I think that because of the liberalism that has dominated the Roman Catholic Church where you have in their

modern catechism a hope of salvation for Muslims and Hindus and

Buddhists and you have people like Peter Kreeft the Roman Catholic apologist talking

about Atheists who are living according to the light that they've been given.

Referring to them as anonymous Christians who have a hope of salvation I think that that

terror that the Roman Catholics used to have You know a

typical Roman Catholic would have on their Pelagian treadmill.

I don't even think that that is a dominant problem today, even though they might not say I know I'm going to heaven.

They're really not terrified over it.

A friend of mine Rob Zins Who has an organization apologetics

organization focusing on evangelism to Roman Catholics years ago. He wrote

That your average Catholic may think he's not good enough for heaven

but he also doesn't think he's bad enough for hell and There is sometimes a false humility

in saying.

Well, I don't really know if I'm going to heaven.

It's it's Kind of a Patting yourself on the back as being not too

proud or something.

Am I making sense?

Yeah, I mean I I would be hard -pressed to make generalizations about what's

going on in in the Catholic Church, but I it strikes me as something as

What you're saying is true.

I mean, I guess we definitely see it in our circles in evangelical Protestant circles reform circles.

We definitely see that kind of thing and I think it's probably true there as well that you know the

attitude towards these kinds of things and.

And and I think you put it well that a lot of people who think well, I can't be sure about heaven.

But I'm sure I'm not going to hell which effectively means you are Confident that you'll be saved from God's

wrath or you just don't understand what that is at all.

So.

Yeah, I think these are big problems people Jen generally aren't

Giving

that we need to be giving.

Yes, and I've heard from Roman Catholic apologists who I have.

Had involved in debates that I've organized with. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and others

who will be openly admitting that That is a major problem in the Roman Catholic Church today

is that people are not only ignorant of the Bible.

They're ignorant of their own dogma as a religion and There is no

problem waiting on long lines for the confessional booth in the 21st century, you know

not that we would believe that that is Something that anybody should be involved in.

In fact, most of us in the Reformed faith would consider that to be extremely heretical and dangerous

dangerous activity.

But if you actually believe that it is a required sacrament in order to

receive eternal life after your Season and purgatory after you die, you would think that the

lines would be very very long.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, you're you're right.

And and I think that That probably is indicative of the Perspective that

many have and the sort of flippancy that they have towards towards the things of

God.

So I think you're probably on to something there.

And but you know as you said, I mean goodness knows our churches aren't exempt from that because there's a kind of

casual mess Towards these matters.

It's very pervasive even in our own circles.

I'm gonna read you a question before we go to our final break and you can answer it when we return.

It's not really a Completely in line with our with our topic, but I figured I'd

ask you anyway.

This is a first -time questioner.

A new in New York City, that's a and you.

Anew says I have a question for you.

I minister to seniors a couple of times.

Or more each week.

There is this particular couple I meet each week and today the wife told me not to mention

anything about God in front of her husband.

Things like God bless and have a blessed day, etc.

I was quite taken aback.

How can I not mention God?

What are your thoughts and you could?

Answer that when we return from our station break and this is our final break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air now is the time to do it at Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars.

A year -round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore.

Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 for

generations Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An Additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families couples

singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries.

90 miles from New York City 70 miles from Philly and 95 miles from Wilmington

and easily accessible.

Scores of notable Christian groups.

Frequently planned conferences at Harvey Cedars like the Navigators InterVarsity Christian

Fellowship Campus Crusade and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

Hcbible .org.

Call 609.

494.

5689 609.

494.

5689 Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.

And love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past

sermons Worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church Ma .org that's Providence Baptist Church ma .org

or even on sermon audio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day.

So I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use Battery Depot calm for all

your battery needs at Battery Depot calm.

They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries.

There are uniformly new dependable and affordable.

Ordering from Battery Depot calm ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries.

You can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios Pcs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes GPS's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to battery Depot

Calm.

Next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties.

Call.

866 403 3768

that's 866 403 3768 or go to Battery

Depot calm.

That's Battery Depot calm.

Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WL ie radio

www .wl ie 540 a .m.

Calm we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you.

And we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

Have you been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio?

We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help first Do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their

goods or services on iron sharpens iron radio?

Second whenever possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise and

Then let them know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to iron sharpens iron radio by going to our website at iron sharpens iron

radio Calm and click support at the top of the page, but most importantly keep iron

sharpens iron radio in your prayers.

We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come.

Welcome back in fact.

Let me add another thing that the Reverend buzz Taylor contributes to this program is he picks out a lot of the music

that you?

Hear behind our commercials, but she has in a very exhaustive archive of music and we thank you for that.

It's I think Excellent music that you've chosen and We have

that listener Jonathan That asked a question anew in Manhattan.

Who asked the question on whether or not she should refrain from speaking about God while

ministering to?

Elderly people or anybody for that matter when they insist, please don't talk about God anymore.

What should she do about that?

Ultimately, we can't ever Refrain from from speaking the truth.

I mean the first passage that that jumped into my mind a new and when I heard this was

the the incident that happens in Acts chapter 4 where Peter and John are

confronted by the officials and Told that they can't speak out anymore.

Similar the kind of thing you've been told and they and they said we cannot in verse 20 of

Acts 4 We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.

At the same time there may be people friendships that you have relationships that you have and

at a certain point they say I Don't want to talk with you about this anymore.

And I think at that you can still be friends with them.

You can still you're still gonna Live your life and and be a witness.

But but perhaps you refrain from Speaking specific.

I'm not exactly sure I understand the circumstances because it sounded like maybe the

wife was saying don't talk about this in front of my husband I'm sure if you have yet or not.

And so is she say is the wife saying we've heard enough about this already from you

Stop or the wife saying stop.

He doesn't need here.

Anyway, there's some peculiarities to the situation.

But ultimately, you know one way to think of it is this if you were a doctor and

You knew that you had a cure for them.

At what point would you stop?

Telling them about that at what point would you would you not care to share that with them?

Maybe there would come a point where you they've they've just they've heard it and they've rejected it.

But But in general, I would say, you know, how can you not give these words of

life to someone?

Yeah, and wouldn't it be wise for her to very gently and compassionately Have a

dialogue with the wife and tell the wife That she loves God so

much meaning that a new Loves God so much that she cannot resist from speaking

about him and perhaps ask this woman why?

Yes, this request or demand has been made and it may lead into a

Conversation that opens up all kinds of avenues for evangelism.

I can remember when I Back in the 1980s as a new Christian would volunteer weekly at a nursing

home during what our church Had called

Vespas, it's kind of an Anglican turn I think for an term for an evening service that involves

music and so on and we used to have a A service at the nursing home where there would

be a lot of singing in a in a short sermon And I can and we were always as volunteers

making our rounds in the different areas where the Residents of the nursing home would congregate in

their wheelchairs and we would ask them would you like to join us for a church service and if they said yes,

we would wheel them over to the area where the Vespas service was going on and.

One.

Woman when I asked her that would you like to join me for a church service?

She very angrily said to me I'm Jewish.

No, and I said to her.

Well, that's okay.

Jesus is Jewish, you know, and she said really?

Okay.

And I wheeled her over there and I don't know whatever became of this woman.

But you know, I don't know what kind of seed was planted while she heard that minister speaking.

You never know.

I mean, obviously we will never know not being Infallible omniscient people but if

you could comment on that.

No, I think I think you're right.

I mean, so so this is the kind of situation that doesn't lend itself to it.

An answer that this is what you should do.

Absolutely.

What it really lends itself to is you need to have a follow -up conversation.

This woman has has has asked you something that is pretty pretty unusual and pretty

Gets to the heart of who you are.

And I think it's worth following up and and may give you the opportunity to explain why it is that you care so much

About talking about the Lord.

Why it is that you care so much for them and for their lives and for their souls that you continue To talk about what

it is that the Lord has done for you.

And so Chris, I think you're right.

These Initial rejections can be openings for further

conversation.

The reverend buzz has a comment.

You know, this is something that the Apostle Paul even addressed once too because he was requesting prayer that he would know

how to speak to each one because.

There's you're not gonna run into any two situations that are the same and and you know I know we'd like to think that there's

you know, one size fits all.

You get this formula going it's gonna work everywhere.

But well, hey, that's one of the reasons we're dependent on the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, you know.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Oh, no.

No, I was just gonna basically say amen to what buzz said.

He's right.

I mean both with Christians and with non -christians.

We need wisdom to know how to how to respond to them appropriately.

Well, thank you a new and because you were a first -time questioner you have won a new American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service CVBBS .com.

That's CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service.

Calm.

So keep your eye open in the mail for a package with a return address on the shipping

label.

That says CVBBS .com.

And going back to one of our earlier questions.

I believe it was Rose in Harrisburg when she was Troubled by a

lack of certainty.

Over where a young woman who who passed on into eternity was spending eternity.

She didn't know if this woman was saved.

I have met people.

Even I've even spoken with pastors on occasion who if I ask something like

is your father or mother a Christian and.

They will sometimes say no sadly they are in hell.

They were not Christians and I have asked them on occasion.

Were you with them when they died?

No.

Isn't that a really rash rush to judgment if you are not with a person when

they actually depart from this world.

Isn't it possible that these people?

Were saved that because of seeds that were planted by you or someone else and they may have come to

Salvation.

They may have been born from above born again without your knowledge of it.

Sure.

I mean, that's that's what we see with Jesus and the thief on the cross who was

dying was in the process of dying and and at that moment Understood

who Jesus was who was being crucified next to him and and trusted him and Jesus said

today You'll be with me in paradise.

And so yes that can happen and at the same time, I don't want

to Say to people who I look probably happened or it might have you know must have happened.

But but I agree with you.

It's equally presumptuous and and far less Kind to say it absolutely couldn't

have happened and it never would have you know, that's no the Lord has done.

Remarkable things on people's deathbeds.

Yeah, shouldn't we hold on to any hope that is possible on that without inventing things or?

Having false confidence, but if you don't know, I mean obviously if you're with somebody and they're

cursing God until their final breath You might have more certainty that they are not

Saved but if if you weren't even there, I mean that all kinds of things could have occurred.

Absolutely, right.

In fact if we didn't have in the Word of God the account of the thief on the cross

There may have been many who knew that thief who were nowhere near that site.

Who wouldn't know they would have absolutely no they just remembered.

Well that guy Uncle Bill or whatever his name was that he was a thief and he was

executed for it so therefore he's most likely in hell, but uh, you know, they wouldn't have known unless we they had

a a letter a Scriptural account that they read.

Yeah, and so many of these areas we we we need to remind ourselves to have humility.

We we don't we don't always know what the Lord is doing in other people's lives.

Well, I definitely want you to summarize everything that we have already discussed and

break down everything that.

You want to make sure there are listeners?

You want to make sure as best as possible that our listeners understand on this very important and divisive issue that we've got.

Well, I guess if I could summarize it, I would say that the Bible teaches

Several things about assurance of salvation.

It teaches that we can know for sure And it teaches us how

that happens.

It also tells us that there is a danger of false assurance and And

that this you know, ebb and flood that

you know to return to the point Where you began this program, but that God does

promise that his work in us of justification will lead to

glorification and That as Jesus himself promises the one who comes

to me I will not cast out and I will raise him up on the last day.

So great great scriptural truth promises of the Lord and then and

Then teaching from the Lord about how it is that we can Know

that we will be among those whom the Lord will raise up on the last day.

And and going back to the question of whether or not someone can lose their

salvation if it Genuinely existed.

To begin with I can remember My friend dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries saying something that is permanently etched on my mind.

He was specifically talking about the Roman Catholic Church at the time.

But I think it's equally applicable to five -point Armenians who believe that someone could lose their

salvation at any moment.

They really have no peace with God.

They don't have a true shalom.

What they have is a temporary ceasefire that could erupt into a full -scale

war at any moment.

Isn't that a Very good analogy when you compare what true peace with God is and

what this uncertainty That many are sadly plagued with.

That involves so much human effort rather than the

100 sovereign grace and mercy of God.

Yeah, the minute you begin to think that your salvation is dependent on what you have done and

that that's what you're banking on.

Or that's what you have to look to and remember or or place your confidence in the minute you do that

then that then if you're honest with yourself, there is just a huge huge element of real

uncertainty and.

And you're right.

I mean we that what the Bible points us to in terms of assurance is based on the fact that it's God's work

and God's The one who who's done it and it they're God's promises and God's God's

At work in your life to bring it those promises to completion.

One thing that I wanted to ask Reverend buzz about because I know that before he came to an understanding of the reformed

faith He had spent time even in the pastorate in charismatic

and Church of God Denominations that Would lend themselves to

Arminianism.

Did you ever believe.

I know that you you were educated at Bob Jones that believed in eternal security.

But did you ever believe after that that you could lose your salvation?

No, I never abandoned that doctrine and that used to Bob.

That was one of the things that of course Drew me out of the charismatic movement was the fact that I got tired of hearing

people condemning as they said once saved always saved that's that was their little cliche and

I felt sorry for them if they could never have assurance, you know.

Amen and.

Of course, not all charismatics, right?

Believe that you have people like the Sovereign Grace Ministries, but they were very I mean.

Very vehement against the doctrine of eternal security.

The ones that you were from the ones that I was familiar with.

Yes.

Oh, yes, right.

And.

Well, this really when it boils down to its essence is

a phrase that I've used before I this is a phrase that I

Used at the beginning of a program that I created in the 1990s.

It was called the voice of Sovereign Grace.

Which was a program?

That.

Featured five different reformed churches that each hosted their own night of the week

to have a sermon aired during the broadcast and.

During the opening announcements, I would say to define what the doctrines of

Sovereign Grace are.

I Would say in summary that it is the belief that God alone saves

sinners.

Because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

Isn't that where we really find our greatest hope and trust and peace and knowing that?

Yeah, there's the the confidence that we have and the peace that we have is because it's the work of the Lord

and not of ourselves.

We understand ourselves rightly.

We know that by our nature were objects of God's wrath and and sinners and we are in

need of help from the outside.

Help that only God can provide that only God's Son can can give to us through his work on the

cross.

So yeah, that is the source of our hope.

Uh.

Reverend buzz, you know a verse of Imnits always meant a lot to me's from the hymn

come now found, you know.

When we sing prone to wander Lord, I feel it Lauren, but prone to leave the God I love.

I've said many many times at the most amazing thing about my salvations that I've still got it

Amen, that's the work of the Lord.

Amen.

And as I heard recently from John MacArthur if I could lose my

salvation I would.

We have but before we run out of time we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know if you have

Books that you could recommend that address this topic.

Obviously including your own.

Yeah, there there are some some I think helpful books.

I mean my own book is really a Look at the history of this doctrine more than more

than you know.

Sort of a biblical exposition of it.

If my book is called a question of consensus the doctrine of assurance after the Westminster Confession.

It looks at what the Westminster Confession itself and then it also looks at

What you know others right after it said who were kind of from the same, you know,

same same I think that you know

in addition to that You know R .C. Sproul has a little book.

Can I be sure I've saved which is which is a helpful Little book.

The other thing I would recommend and this is free all of our listeners can look this up online but if

you look at some of the Decrees that we have if you look at the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter

18 or if you look at the London Confession of Faith to 1689.

There's this there is a there are paragraphs in there about assurance.

I mean, there are four paragraphs in the Westminster Confession on assurance and they're really good.

They're packed with scripture and they just sort of unfold many of the things we've talked about and I would encourage

our readers to look at that and to And to also look at the footnotes look at the scripture

references that they're looking at that'll give you a kind of little theology of assurance.

Yes, and Joel Beakey.

Dr. Joel Beakey wrote his doctoral dissertation on this very thing.

That's right, and if you want Information on that book go to cvbbs .com.

CV for Cremlin Valley BBS for Bible book service.

Calm.

Well, I know that your website for Cairn University is C

a r c a I r n edu.

Any other contact information you care to give.

Yeah, well people can always reach me through my Cairn email address, which is J master at Cairn edu.

And that's that's all posted up there.

I think on the website.

You know.

We always like hearing from people on the Alliance of confessing evangelicals.

People listen to the podcast and want to give feedback.

They can do that via alliance net org or place for truth Org, so those are the easiest ways to get in

touch.

Well, thank you so much for being our guest today.

Thank you.

Reverend buzz Taylor for being my co -host.

Thank you all for writing in questions and thank you all for listening.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.