September 4, 2020 Show with Dr. Jason Lisle on “Taking Back Astronomy”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday. On this fourth day of September 2020, and I am absolutely thrilled beyond description to have, after trying many times over the years to get our guest booked on this program,

I am so thrilled to have today for the very first time, Dr. Jason Lyle, a

Christian astrophysicist, a popular speaker and author and founder of Biblical Science Institute, also known as BSI.

Today we are going to address the theme, which is also the title of one of his books, Taking Back Astronomy, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the first time ever,

Dr. Jason Lyle. Well, thanks for having me on. Well, thank you, brother, and I want to thank

Denise Toth, your assistant, for doing all the hard behind -the -scenes work to get this arranged, and also for doing so much publicity for this interview.

First of all, before we go into some of your own background and the theme at hand, tell us about the

Biblical Science Institute. Well, I founded it three years ago, and I wanted it to be a scientifically accurate, but nonetheless presuppositional ministry that helps people to understand that science is something that confirms biblical creation.

In fact, it rests upon it. The principles of science make sense in light of the Christian worldview, and so our goal is we want to see a lot of people saved, and the means by which we do that is we defend and present the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Praise God. And for anybody who wants more information on the

Biblical Science Institute, BSI... Yeah, check us out on the website, biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

biblicalscienceinstitute .com, and I'm sure we'll be repeating that throughout the program.

And there is a treasure trove of information and resources there on all things scientific from a young -earth

Christian perspective, young -earth creationist Christian perspective. And now

I would like to have you give us some of your personal story.

As you know, on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, we have a tradition. Whenever we have a first -time guest on this program, we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances did our

Lord, our Sovereign Lord, raise up in their lives that drew them to Himself and save them.

So I'd like you to do the same. Happy to do that. I am very blessed to have been reared by Christian parents.

And the interesting thing, too, the way that the Lord orchestrated this is always, it's always fascinating to me because they were,

I think when they were married, they were not believers. And when they were with child, then they decided they wanted to make sure that that child was raised in a good moral atmosphere.

So they started going to church and, hey, the Lord saved them. And praise God for that. And so they raised me up to believe that the

Bible was true. And I've never had any reason to doubt that. So when I was very young, I probably no more than six or seven years old,

I knew the basics of the gospel. My theology wasn't as good as it is now, of course, but I knew the basics.

I knew that I was a sinner and that I deserved death and hell as a result of my rebellion against God and that Jesus had paid the penalty for my sin.

If I confessed him as Lord and Savior, he would save me. And so I did that when I was very young.

And just going through the school system, I've never had any reason to doubt that. I've certainly had people bring up objections to the

Christian worldview. And that's one of the reasons why I founded the Biblical Science Institute, because I also have a strong interest in science.

It's something that's just fascinating to me. And when I was very young, I was presented with, I remember it was a book on dinosaurs.

And of course, what young boy doesn't like dinosaurs? I was no exception. And I remember reading about evolution in that book.

That was the first time I was exposed to that and thinking, well, that's not right. That's not what the Bible says. And so that started my path down discernment and helping other people to discern what we read in textbooks.

What part of it is good science, which I would argue always confirms biblical creation, and what part of it is really storytelling?

So that's one of the things that we do at Biblical Science Institute. We really are just discernment ministry. That's something that, just the way the

Lord brought me up, that's something that's very important to me. Oh, praise God.

I always love not only hearing about the dramatic conversion stories of people who were living far from God, living rebellious, satanic lives, who were radically transformed, but I also love hearing about God's preserving mercy and grace in the lives of those who were raised in Christian homes and who

God has spared from those things. I think an equally remarkable story to hear, especially in the 21st century.

Yes. Praise God for boring testimonies. Well, I don't find it boring at all.

As I just said, I think it's equally as amazing. Especially when you remember the current situation of young people today in this age of rioting and all kinds of violence being perpetuated by even the youngest of teenagers among us.

And I just praise God to hear stories like yours. Now, when did this fascination and love for science begin in your life?

Also very young. As far back as I can remember, really, I liked science. I like to know how things work.

I like to know how things connect. That's just something that the Lord has placed within me as a passion, even when

I was very young. And I remember we'd go to our local library and as soon as I could read,

I'd get these books on especially astronomy, but really any science. I like them all. But I remember seeing these beautiful pictures of these stars and galaxies and just being awestruck by the beauty that the

Lord has placed in His creation. And astronomy, it's so big, too. Just when you think about the size of these things that the

Lord's created, that really just captured my imagination. It's something that I found fascinating. So I had no doubt when

I was young that I would be a scientist of some sort. And as I grew older, there was no reason to depart from that.

So after I graduated high school, I went to college and double majored in physics and astronomy, minored in mathematics, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

And so I thought, I want more of this. And so I went to grad school then at the University of Colorado in Boulder and got my master's and PhD.

And I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful that the Lord has planned my life out that way because now I get to use science, which

I find very interesting, to show people that God's Word is true. So I've got the best job in the world, really. Praise God for that as well.

And what comes under the umbrella of the duties, the responsibilities, the knowledge, the categories of science?

What comes under the umbrella of astrophysicist? Well, basically anything beyond Earth.

And so it's an enormous field. The largest, really, because we're studying everything in the universe that's beyond Earth.

And if you think about all the other fields, geology and paleontology and so on, most of those are limited to Earth.

I guess geology, you could do geology of other planets. But astronomy is everything else. And so it covers quite a lot.

It covers quite a lot. And of course, we specialize in different subfields. And in grad school, I specialized in solar physics for a number of reasons.

But that's something that has always been fascinating to me. But I like other things about astronomy as well, things like space and time, the physics of Einstein.

I wrote a book on that because I find it very interesting. But anything dealing with stars, galaxies, planets, comets, quasars, all that interesting stuff,

I love it all. And that all falls under the purview of astrophysics. Well, I wish my late dad, my father, who passed in 1998,

I wish he could hear our interview today because my dad worked for Grumman Aviation and later

Grumman Aerospace. He helped. He was on the team that designed the lunar module.

Oh, wow. And he was also very key in the development, even before that, of the thrust reverse that every jet has to slow it down when it lands.

And my father obviously had a great love and passion for all things aviation and aerospace.

He was, in fact, in the Army Air Corps in World War II, trained to be a glider pilot.

And thankfully, he got pneumonia because if he did not get pneumonia, it would be a very good, very strong likelihood

I wouldn't be sitting here because many, if not most, glider pilots perished because they were basically going on suicide missions.

So I just thought I'd share that bit of information with you because it makes conversations like this even more important to me due to the connection to my dad.

Yes. Well, you've written this book that we're going to be addressing today, Taking Back Astronomy.

Who are you taking astronomy back from? Uh, from the secularists who have tried to use astronomy inappropriately to try and convince people that there's no

God, or at least not the biblical God, and the universe just kind of popped into existence for no particular reason 13 .8

billion years ago, and so on and so forth. And I wanted to take back astronomy, give it back to the Lord, to him it belongs. It's a branch of that he has,

God created the universe, and it declares his glory. So if we're studying it properly, we should see the glory of God revealed in creation.

So that's what the book's all about. Great. And what are the arguments, the typical major arguments that a secularist scientist would use to deny creation?

I know it's ironic that they will very often bring up something like the

Big Bang, but they offer no believable or logical explanation on how the

Big Bang even happened, if it did at all, without some kind of architect, some kind of a superior being, or a being that existed prior to the existence of everything else to start this

Big Bang. But tell us about what kind of arguments they would even have. Yeah, I think a lot of secularists have the impression that religion, and in particular the

Christian religion, is anti -scientific. And so the whole idea of scientific process, the progress in science, that's something that Christianity allegedly has held back.

So there's this underlying incorrect philosophy, I think, that they have. And you'll hear this when they say things like, well, you know, people used to believe that God caused thunder and lightning, but now we know that natural forces cause those things.

And that is a bifurcation fallacy. It's because, I still believe

God causes thunder and lightning, but I believe he does it through what we call natural forces. God ordains not only the ends, but also the means.

And so once you get rid of that underlying philosophy, then they try to go to some specific issues, and generally they'll try to argue that the universe is much, much older than the biblical timescale would allow.

So that's one of the things that I've really hit hard on in taking back astronomy, is showing evidence that the universe is much younger than the secularists believe.

Now, what compels our brothers in Christ, who are

Old Earth creationists, to reject what you're saying in that regard?

Obviously, they are creationists of some form, but, you know, we have brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

They passionately defend the fact that the

Scriptures are God -breathed right alongside us. They believe that the

Word of God is the sole inerrant authority over the Church. And yet, these folks, many of whom are scientists or just fans of science, they would not only disagree with you, but they might also reach the level of mockery, of rage and anger, as I have experienced.

There are Old Earth creationists out there who have actually reached the point, in their opposition to Young Earth creationism, that they say, we are sending souls to hell, because we are driving especially the youth away from the

Church, because as the youth enter into high school and college, and they start hearing their professors very eloquently discuss, and in their minds, truthfully, that the

Earth is billions of years old, that when they hear folks like you and every other

Young Earth creationist Christian, the kids are like, these people are morons, they're

Neanderthals, for lack of a better term, or pardon the pun,

I should say. They just think that our stupidity, in their minds, is driving the youth straight through the gates of hell.

And so, why are they so enamored with the science of those that hate

God? I mean, what about it seems to be totally believable and provable?

Well, I think the campaign that the evolutionists have been using, the narrative that they like to present, is that evolution is the same kind of science that makes computers work, and that puts people on the moon, and so on, and they link those two things together.

And I think those are totally different issues, because the kind of science that puts people on the moon is testable, repeatable in a laboratory.

We can do it today. Evolution, not testable, repeatable in a laboratory. It's a story about the past.

But nonetheless, they try to link those two together, and convince people that evolution is science, and people rightly have some degree of respect for science.

I think we should. It's a wonderful tool that the Lord's given us, and it has allowed us to do amazing things in terms of the technology that we now enjoy, which

I would argue is based on biblical creation anyway. But people, they get this narrative. Most people go through the public school system.

Now, granted, there are some fine Christian teachers in public school systems, but generally they're not allowed to present a genuine creation -based position in science.

So the students are taught that, hey, all the scientists believe in evolution in billions of years. That's the same kind of science that puts people on the moon.

And so you just have to be an idiot not to believe in that. And most of them have not been presented with any counter arguments.

And unfortunately, we have to take the blame for some of this, because I think we Christians have not, in the past, have not really stood up and said, no, wait a minute.

What you're saying there really doesn't line up with good science, and it's contrary to anyway. How many churches take a stand on this issue and say, hey,

God really did create. He created in six days, and here are the theological reasons why that's important, one of them being the gospel message, which depends on the fact that death is the penalty percent.

But if fossils are hundreds of billions of years old, they're not the result of Adam's sin, and therefore, death is not the penalty percent.

And so why did Jesus die on the cross? Most Christians don't think through those issues. They've gone through the public schools.

They've been taught a very secular viewpoint. They don't realize it. They think they're going to a public school and getting a neutral perspective.

But there's no neutral when it comes to God. You're either bowing to the need of God, or you're not. And if you're not, you're in sin.

And so they get this, we get brainwashed is what it comes down to, and intimidated. We get intimidated, because we find that there are brilliant people, and I don't deny there are brilliant people that believe in the

Big Bang and billions of years of evolution. But the bottom line is, I don't believe they can present good evidence for their position.

I don't think they can present a good argument for evolution. And that's the response that I usually get when

I ask a Christian, why do you believe in either evolution that God used, or some kind of progressive creation where God created over billions of years?

Why do you believe that? And almost always the response is, well, that's what all the scientists believe. And I would say, well, first of all,

I'm a scientist, so I don't believe that. So that's not what all of them believe. And then secondly, there's different ways you can answer this.

You can point out, well, you know, most scientists don't believe in resurrection from the dead. Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

Oh, okay. That's kind of a different thing there, isn't it? And so those are some of the issues that I would push back on.

But then, you know, sometimes I'll ask for a specific example. Why is it that you think, you know, the world's billions of years old?

I'll say, well, fossils. I'll say, well, what makes you think fossils are billions of years old? They usually can't give an answer.

They've been taught these things from their youth. It's ingrained in them. And so it's not a result of education, really.

It's a result of brainwashing, really, is what it comes down to. But the actual scientists who say these things, like,

I'll give you an example. And by the way, I want to make it clear that I have friends, good friends, and even

I've had enjoyable interviews on this program with old earth creationists. So I don't want to paint them all with some kind of a hateful, bigoted, snobbish brush.

In fact, one of my dearest friends, one of my oldest Christian friends is Ken Samples, from Reasons to Believe, who's an old earth creationist.

And he's never, at least in my presence, come across with that snobbery, or even dared to make the kind of accusations that other old earth creationists have.

But one of the arguments I've personally heard from an old earth creationist is that it's especially seen that there is lacking academic backing and scholarship amongst young earth creationists in the field of geology, that there are really no accredited, real, renowned, and prestigious geologists that anybody looks up to in any way who believes in a young earth.

How do you respond to that? Well, it's just not true. There are geologists like Dr.

Andrew Snelling. He was my boss, actually, when I worked with Ancestors in Genesis, and one of the finest

Christians I've ever met. Just a joy to work with him, and a brilliant scholar. You read some of his publications, some of his research, it's very insightful.

Or Dr. Tim Clary, who I've also worked with, Ph .D. in geology. Also very insightful research.

There's others. There's Dr. Steve Austin, and so on. And so I've met a lot of these

Ph .D. geologists, and some people will say, well, yeah, but they're not considered prestigious.

Well, of course not. They're not telling the narrative. They're not telling the same line that the secularists like to present.

So my point is, Christianity is not popular. If you're going to be a biblical

Christian, you're going to get ridiculed. That's just the way the world is at the moment. Whether it'll always be that way,

I guess that depends on your eschatology, but in any case, at the moment, it's popular to be Christian.

So there you go. Yeah, and of course, it's hardly fair to use that as your litmus test for truth when people could very easily, and often do, have their careers destroyed when they break from the narrative of the secular science and a belief in an old earth and all that.

That's quite right. They get expelled, as that video amply demonstrated. But you know, the interesting thing is, as well, you might think that I was just talking about, you know, previously

I was just talking about laymen, you know, that they believe because all these scientists believe.

But the fact is, most scientists that I've talked to also believe because they think all the other scientists believe.

In other words, I might ask a geologist, you know, what is your evidence for believing in billions of years?

And they'll say, well, you know, the astronomers tell us that billions of years for the solar system to perform. So when we calibrate our radiometric dating, we do it based on their research.

In other words, they're convinced because they think all the other scientists are convinced. And I actually had that happen one time.

I was in a geology class when I was an undergraduate, and a geology professor, she said, well, you know, because the question came up, how do you know radiometric dating is reliable?

He said, well, you know, we calibrate it based on what the astronomers tell us for the age of the solar system. And then fast forward a few years,

I'm in grad school, and I'm taking a class on astrophysics, and the question came up, how do you know the solar system is billions of years old?

They said, well, the geologists tell us for radiometric dating of rocks of the Earth's about that age, and so on.

And so you have cross -disciplinary circular reasoning. Everybody thinks that all the other scientists have all the evidence.

And I've encountered this many times. And we need to recognize that scientists are people too. And scientists can get intimidated just like anybody else.

And there's this human tendency to go with the flow and say, hey, if all these brilliant people are thinking that way, that must be the way it is.

But we need to remember that God's Word is supreme. And there have been times when people disagreed with God's Word.

They now bake on their face because God's Word is always vindicated. Yeah, I'm amazed that anybody from academia, or perhaps

I shouldn't be amazed, but would use argumentation like that, that is really so circular, it's laughably absurd.

It's like... They don't realize it. Yeah, they don't realize it's circular, because they don't realize the geologist who relies on the astrophysicist doesn't realize that the astrophysicist is relying on the geologist.

And that's the key. Everybody thinks everybody else has the evidence for evolution and the billions of years.

After the preliminaries are gone away, because usually the first... When I first ask them, okay, what's your evidence for billions of years?

They'll say radiometric dating. I'll say, well, do you know how that works? And a lot of times they don't. And if they do, I'll walk them through them and show them the assumptions that are involved.

How do you know those assumptions are reliable? Well, that's when they fall back and they say, well, we can't for sure, but hey, the astrophysicists tell us this and so on.

So they're not aware of the cross -disciplinary circular reasoning, but it definitely occurs. It reminds me many years ago when

I heard a debate between, I think it might've been two or more debaters on each team, but there were

Roman Catholics, Roman Catholic apologists who were debating fundamentalists, evangelicals were actually, obviously these fundamentals would never call themselves evangelicals, but they were fundamentalist

Christians. And when the Catholics posed them with the question, how do you know Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew and Mark wrote the gospel of Mark and Luke wrote the gospel of Luke and John wrote the gospel of John, the answer was, well, that's because it says it right here in the index of my

King James Bible. I mean, obviously being a born again believer and a

Protestant, I was, I cringed with horror hearing this. I am a former Roman Catholic by the way.

And I am also quite disparaged by the fact that as a lover of science as a young man and a student in Catholic parochial schools for eight years, this would have been not very long after Vatican II when the

Catholic church started to really become officially liberal. I was taught in my science class in Catholic school by a secular teacher who they called, or should

I say a non -religious teacher or a non -ordained teacher, it wasn't a nun or a priest, uh, they called them lay teachers.

Um, I was taught by our science teacher that everything you read in the Bible about the origins of the earth and man are fairy tales.

Don't believe them. We evolved from apes and the earth is billions of years old. I can remember being quite shocked as a child to hear these things.

Uh, but, uh, it is a tragedy, uh, that, that you hear things like that, uh, coming from, uh, places where they, they shouldn't belong.

Yeah, indeed. Uh, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us on the air with your own question for Dr.

Jason Lyle, please, uh, send an email to chrizarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are a closet young earth creationist and you don't want to, uh, draw attention to your identity because your pastor or your church or denomination happens to favor an old earth view.

Or perhaps, uh, you are just coming to investigate the claims of Christianity and, uh, you are, uh, uneasy with, uh, bringing to light your journey that you're on and the fact that you are starting to question things that have been just, uh, swallowed wholesale uh, by most people outside of the

Christian faith in regard to science and you just don't want at this point in your journey to identify yourself.

Whatever the case is, if it's a personal and private issue, I understand that and you can remain anonymous. But if not, if it's just a general question on science and the

Bible, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away.

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arms. And if you just tuned this in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

Dr. Jason Lyle. He's an astrophysicist, and he is the founder of Biblical Science Institute, also known as BSI.

And just as a reminder, you can find out more about the Biblical Science Institute at biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

Today we are addressing the theme of his book, Taking Back Astronomy. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And just as a reminder, especially to you folks who have already sent in questions during the commercial break, some of you have left out anything but your name, so please include your city and state of residence and your country of residence unless you're remaining anonymous for a personal and private reason.

Before I ask any real questions, our mutual friend Dr. James R.

White of Alpha and Omega Ministries has a question. I'm amazed at the shallowness of his question, knowing of the brilliance that his skull possesses.

But he says, ask Dr. Lyle about his glow -in -the -dark picture of Albireo.

Oh yeah, James White, he took a picture of it. I introduced James White to Albireo, it was one of the objects we looked at when he was visiting me one time.

We did a stargazing session. Albireo is a beautiful blue and gold double star.

And so he got into astrophotography and took a really spectacular picture of it. And he ended up putting it on a frame and he got these little tritium tubes where he replaced the center of the stars so they actually glow in the dark.

So it's pretty clever. So he sent me one of those and it's pretty neat. Well, thank you for wasting some of our valuable time,

Dr. White. And let me go to some authentic questions here.

We have Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia, excited about today's interview.

Also, your ministry has been a tremendous blessing in my life. Does your ministry sell or could you recommend a telescope to view

God's awesome creation? Also, where would I be able to obtain an accurate guide to help me understand what celestial bodies

I'm viewing? Oh, perfect question, perfect setup. I wrote a book on that topic.

We don't sell telescopes at Biblical Science Institute. But I did write a book on that very topic on everything you need to know about a telescope, what kind you might want to get, how much do you want to spend, what are the different types.

And that book is called The Stargazer's Guide to the Night Sky. And that book is available on our website at biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

So The Stargazer's Guide to the Night Sky. And that'll show you all the cool objects that you can see with a backyard telescope.

In terms of what kind you might want to get, I like Orion. That's a good brand name. And then in terms of what style you want to get, it will depend on how much money you want to spend.

On the cheaper end are the Newtonian, Dobsonian -type telescopes. And those, you have to push them to where you want to look at.

So you have to learn the night sky to use one of those. On the other end, on the more expensive end, you have the

Schmidt -Cassegrain. Not terribly expensive, but they're a little pricier. But they're more portable. They're easier to use.

And a lot of them are computer -controlled. And so once you line it up on two guide stars, you can then push in the coordinates, and it'll move automatically to where the object is that you want to look at.

You just have to tell it what object you want to look at, and it'll move there. And so the advantage of that is you don't have to know the night sky.

And the disadvantage is you don't have to know the night sky. And so you're missing out on something by not learning where these things are.

So Orion is a good brand name. Celestron's also pretty good. Mead is kind of 50 -50.

I've seen good Meads and not -so -good Meads. So there you go. But the book will guide you through the details in terms of what kind of telescope would be right for you.

So the Stargazer's Guide to the Night Sky. Great. Well, Lew, thank you for your question.

And if you give us your full name and mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia, you're going to receive a free copy of the book we are talking about today,

Taking Back Astronomy. And that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS .com. And look for CVBBS on the label.

That will be your books arriving in the mail. We have a first -time listener, or at least a questioner,

Caleb with a K in Warsaw, Indiana. And he says, How do you think the universe was created given the vast physical dimensions?

I've heard an idea involving a white hole, but I'm not sure if or how it could be tested.

That's an interesting question for a person like you, who believes that God is the creator of all things and could, without any effort on his part, create anything millions and billions and trillions the size of the planet

Earth. But if you could answer Caleb's question.

Yeah, it seems to me, I think he's asking about the distant starlight issue. It's not a problem for an infinite

God to make a big universe. That's not a problem at all. God's infinitely powerful, so if he can make an Earth, he can make a universe with 100 billion stars in every galaxy, and 100 billion galaxies, perhaps more.

So that's not an issue. One of the issues that some people think is a problem is the fact that we can see these distant galaxies.

How can we see the light from these galaxies when you would think the light would take billions of years to get from there to here?

Light's very fast, but the universe is even bigger than light is fast, if that makes any sense.

And so the question is, how do we get the light here? And that's not easy for me to answer in a sort of a radio soundbite, but I have written a book on the topic called

The Physics of Einstein, which gives you enough knowledge of physics to see how light can in fact arrive from those galaxies instantly here on Earth, depending on what's called a synchrony convention.

And one analogy I like to use, it's not a perfect analogy, but I have, in some instances,

I've left some place like, say, Pennsylvania at four o 'clock on airplane, and I've arrived in Colorado at four o 'clock.

And that's possible only if you're going west, but it does work because of the way time, the way we measure time on Earth, the way we've instituted these time zones for different locations.

And you can do something like that in space. And so light can leave a star on day four when the star is first created on the fourth day of the creation week, and it can arrive on Earth instantly, depending on how we set up time and space.

That's called a synchrony convention. And this is something that is actually pretty well known in relativistic physics.

It's just not a lot of people know relativistic physics. So I did write a book called The Physics of Einstein that goes into depth on that issue, and that's available on our website at biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

And yeah, that is a very frequently cited argument against young Earth, not only from a secular atheist who's a scientist or a fan of science, but also an old

Earth Christian scientist. Yes, but probably not if they're knowledgeable of relativistic physics.

I don't think anyone who knows about the physics of Einstein would use that as an argument. It might come from a scientist who is very knowledgeable in other areas.

But the fact is, even secularists, like there's a paper I often cite by Sarkar and Stachel, I think it was written back in 99, where they basically show the same issue.

They show that light can arrive from distant galaxies to Earth instantly. They're not going to solve the star light problem. They're secularists.

They're doing it because the physics is interesting. And so it's really not a problem. I guess that's the long and short of it.

It's really not a problem to get light from distant galaxies to Earth, even instantaneously, even today.

It just depends on what synchrony convention you use, how you choose to define what constitutes now at a distance.

And that does take a little bit of... I mean, I could discuss it more, but you're going to lose half your listeners.

Well, if I was going to lose listeners, I would have driven them away by myself a long time ago.

So the title, The Science of Einstein, is that it? The Physics of Einstein.

The Physics of Einstein. I'm assuming it's titled that because your claims in the book support

Einstein's physics or Einstein's physics support your arguments. Is that why it's called that?

Yeah. Yeah. The physics that Einstein discovered is just wonderful.

It's just so fascinating. And I've been interested in it since I was very young. And so part of the book, part of the reason

I wrote the book is just because it's wonderful. It's just a... Who would have guessed that God would choose to uphold the universe in such a wonderful way?

It's a little counterintuitive at first, but it all works out. And, you know, space and time, and what about time travel and things like that?

What about black holes? Time gets a little bit funky around a black hole. And that book will show you how that works out.

And as it happens, that also gives you the answer to distant starlight. I don't think the white hole answer is the correct answer.

That's something that Russ Humphreys proposed years ago. He doesn't hold to that anymore, by the way. He's moved on to a different model.

But I think the answer lies in what I call synchrony conventions, which is how you define what now means at a distance.

And that's something that Einstein wrote a great deal about. And so the book will kind of bring people up to speed on that issue.

If you're mathematically inclined, the book has boxes where it will actually go through and prove the physics of Einstein.

And if you're not mathematically inclined, you can skip those boxes. So I tried to write it so that everyone could enjoy it.

Well, Caleb with a K, thank you. And as a first -time questioner, not only are you going to win

Taking Back Astronomy, the book we are addressing by Dr. Jason Lyle today, but you're also, as a first -time questioner, getting in the mail a brand new

New American Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the NASB, who are a critical financial supporter of Iron, Sharpens Iron.

Thank you very much for joining the program with your excellent question. We have another first -time questioner from Poughkeepsie, New York, Abram.

Abram says, can you accurately represent the best of the old Earth creationist positions and provide your critique of them?

Do you consider those who hold to that old Earth position within the fold?

I assume he means as your brothers in Christ. Obviously, you'll have to give an abbreviated answer to what he is asking for the sake of time.

But what is the very best? Maybe just narrow it down to one or two. To be perfectly honest,

I don't think there are any good ones. I'm sorry, but I would be perfectly honest with you if there were.

There are some science issues that, you know, it's kind of like, okay, what's the answer to this?

We don't know because there's not enough data. But in terms of the science, I don't think there's any issue there. In terms of biblical theology,

I think most people recognize that the Bible taken at face value, if you try to ignore as much as you can outside influences, just read the

Bible for what it says, you're not going to get billions of years from the Bible. But if you want the best argument,

I think the best arguments that have been made have been made by Hugh Ross. And I recently debated him, by the way, so if you go to our website, biblicalscientiststitute .com,

and you get on the bottom, there's a podcast, there's a series of podcasts, and you can watch that debate as well as my comments on the debate.

I've added a little bit afterwards. And also, I wrote a book on that topic called Understanding Genesis. Understanding Genesis is, it's really about how to interpret scripture, but the last half of the book is presenting what are the best arguments that the older authors present and how to answer them.

And so that's really what that book is all about. That's the book you'll want to get to go into details on that topic. But I really don't think there are any good ones, quite honestly.

If there were, I'd tell you. You know, 20 -30 years ago, I would say, well, radiometric dating and distant starlight are the two top issues, but with radiometric dating, we've answered that now very accurately,

I think, in the rate research that was done. Andrew Snelling was involved in that, and brilliant research.

And so we now know that radiometric dating actually confirms biblical creation. It's consistent with the biblical timescale of thousands, years, not billions.

And then I myself have contributed to the field of astrophysics in terms of answering the distant starlight issue.

And I published a technical paper on that, published in the Answers Research Journal back in 2010. It's never been refuted.

There were only a couple attempts to refute it, and so I think that's a good answer to that. So there really aren't any major outstanding issues at this point.

There are always going to be claims, right, that something challenges a straightforward reading of the

Bible, but you do a little work, you do a little investigation, and you find there's always an answer. Well, Abram, thank you so much for the excellent question.

And you are also, as a first -time questioner, not only going to get a copy of Taking Back Astronomy, Dr.

Jason Lyle's book, but you're also going to be getting a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the

NASB publishers. And of course, we want to thank our friends at the Biblical Science Institute, founded by Dr.

Jason Lyle, for providing us with copies of Taking Back Astronomy. So get us your full name and mailing address,

Abram, in Poughkeepsie, New York, and we'll have cvbbs .com ship out the book and Bible to you as soon as possible.

We're going to our midway break now, and please be patient with us, folks, because the midway break is always our longer -than -normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show to obey

FCC regulations and localize their programming to Lake City, Florida, which would include

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So while they air their own local public service announcements and other local things, we air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely and write down as much of the information as possible provided by our advertisers, so that they will more than likely renew their advertising contracts, because we absolutely, positively depend upon the financial support of our advertisers to exist.

We could not exist without these advertisements that you hear. So please encourage our advertisers by patronizing them, at least by letting them know that you thank them for supporting the show, and also use this time to write down questions for Dr.

Jason Lyle, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Dr.

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Before we return to our interview with Dr. Jason Lyle, I just have a couple of important announcements, one of which includes or involves a colleague of Dr.

Lyle. Our guest for next Thursday, that will be the 10th of September, is

Dr. Danny R. Faulkner, astronomer and author of a number of books, including the book that we will be discussing next week,

Falling Flat, which is a refutation of the Flat Earth Theory. Believe it or not folks, there are people in the 21st century who are still promoting the

Flat Earth Theory, and these are not necessarily knuckle -dragging people emerging from caves.

These are people who have created very polished media representations.

And before I go on with any other announcements, Dr. Lyle, I know that you offer this book at the

Biblical Science Institute. Can you give us a little bit more of a description of Dr. Faulkner's book,

Falling Flat? Yeah, it's a great resource, and it's something that I've encountered as well.

I actually have an article or two on our website as well on the fact that actually the

Bible does teach around Earth, it really does, in places like Joe 2610, but also refuting some of the so -called scientific arguments that people have put forward to argue that the world is flat.

Danny's book goes much more thorough. I just did a little introduction on the website, and this is something, believe it or not, that is resurging, and I get it.

Because it used to be in the past, if you read something, there was a good chance that it had been peer -reviewed because you're reading it in a book, or you're reading, you know, the publishers have checked it out to see if it's accurate.

Today, the internet has changed everything. And so today, anybody can post any kind of nonsense they want to on the internet, and people need to be far more discerning about internet sources.

And so what Danny's done is he's taken some of the common arguments that the flattered folks have made, generally on the internet, and he's demonstrated that they fall flat, that they do not stand up to scientific scrutiny, including the ones where you look over the ocean and you look at ships to see if, you know, because of the curvature of the ocean, well, you've got to be careful about that, because you can get inversion layers where the temperature of the air will cause light to bend a little bit differently, so it doesn't move in perfectly straight lines.

So that's one of the things that's in his book. I think it's a great resource, and so we do stock it on our website. So that's next

Thursday, September 10th, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, live here on IronTruppin's Iron Radio, Dr.

Danny Falker discussing his book, Falling Flat, and he is a staff member of Answers in Genesis.

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And if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, no matter where you live in the world, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth, and I've helped many people in our audience find churches that they didn't even know existed, sometimes within a couple of minutes right around the corner from where they live.

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and put I need a church in the subject line. I may be able to help you or them find a church.

And that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Jason Lyle on anything regarding science, especially in regard to the creation versus evolution or astrophysicist realm topics.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. We have Ben in Louisville, Texas, another first time questioner. Dr.

Lyle, do you think ASC can or even already has achieved a level of consensus within the creation science community?

What do you think of the creation time coordinate CTC paper by Baumgardner et al.?

And of course, once again, I'm going to have to reveal my total ignorance because I have no idea what ASC is or CTC.

Can you explain a little bit? Yeah, the ASC stands for anisotropic synchrony convention.

Anisotropic means different in different directions. And so I've pointed out that the way that one of the most popular ways for physicists to conceptually or in reality synchronize two clocks separated by a distance is to bounce a light beam or laser beam back and forth between them under the assumption that the speed of light is the same in both directions.

But you don't have to do that. Einstein pointed out that that's just one option. Another option is to have the speed be different in different directions.

You can have the speed be infinite in one direction and half C in the other direction, for example.

It surprises people that we can do that because you'd think the speed of light in one direction is either this or that.

But because of the nature in which God upholds space and time, you can actually assign the one -way speed of light that tells you how to synchronize clocks.

So the anisotropic synchrony convention is my conviction about how

God got the light from those distant galaxies to Earth. He's using this more ancient system rather than the modern

Einstein system. And if you use the ASC system, then light takes no time at all to get from those distant galaxies to Earth.

Is it becoming a census? I think it is. I think it is becoming a consensus. The model that Baumgardner and his co -author have published really is just a variation of the anisotropic synchrony convention.

It's the same idea. It's just instead of using the past light cone as the surface of simultaneity, they've used the hyperbola of revolution that approaches that.

So they're on board, I think, with an ASC -type solution.

So is John Hartnett, who's one of the most knowledgeable physicists that I've met in terms of the creation science community that understands general relativity.

And there's another graduate student that I know who is very knowledgeable of general relativity, and he's on board with the anisotropic synchrony convention.

And there's at least one other. So I think that we probably have a majority at this point, because there aren't that many creation astrophysicists, or at least physicists, that deal with this topic.

So I think it's becoming the most popular model, which is encouraging to me. I mean, I don't really care that it's my model.

I just want to know what the answer is. And I'm delighted that perhaps I'm on that. And I'm thrilled that other people are starting to see that.

But not everybody has. It's not something that's universal yet. So time will tell. Well, thank you for the excellent question,

Ben. And thank you for once again, like many of our listeners do, making me look stupid. Actually, it's more than just a look,

I think. But thank you, Ben. And give me your full mailing address in Louisville, Texas, because you are getting a free copy of Taking Back Astronomy, and also a free

New American Standard Bible, since you are a first -time questioner. And the Bible is being given to you, compliments of our friends who publish the

NASB, a major sponsor of this program. And of course, Dr. Lyle's book is being sent to you, compliments of his ministry, the

Biblical Science Institute, BSI. Thank you so much for joining us for the first time on the air.

We have another first -time listener, Terry from Menifee, California.

Can you tell us more about the planet you discovered? How did you discover it? And why is it named the way it is named?

And I discovered a planet myself. Actually, that was during my drinking days, so I better not bring that up.

But anyway, Dr. Lyle, tell us about this planet you discovered. Yes, so it was discovered using

Kepler data from the Kepler spacecraft. Kepler spacecraft monitors the brightness of stars very, very precisely.

And it can do that because it's in space. It's not inhibited by Earth's atmosphere, which causes small fluctuations all the time.

And occasionally, some of these other solar systems are edge -on relative to our solar system.

And when that happens, occasionally one of the planets will cross directly in front of its star from our perspective, and that will block just a tiny fraction of the star's light, resulting in a very small dip in the star's overall brightness as measured by the

Kepler spacecraft. And of course, most stars don't do this because even if they have planets, they're probably not edge -on.

Statistically, only a small fraction of them are. And for that matter, a planet that has a long orbit, a

Kepler spacecraft, I forget what the time span is, but we're talking 10, 15 years, something like that. And so it's not been out there that long.

And so if a planet had a 30 -year orbit, even if it crossed in front of its star, the spacecraft would not have detected it because it hasn't had its chance yet.

So basically, what you do is you look through all these different stars that Kepler has recorded, and you look at their light curve.

You basically look at a measure of the light as a function of time. And you'll find that every now and then it'll dip just a little bit, and that's when a planet crosses in front of that star.

It's a little trickier than it sounds because there are other things that can make a star dip in brightness. Some stars pulsate, and so they actually get brighter and then fainter, brighter and fainter.

But that has a very, that has kind of a characteristic shape to it when you plot the light curve.

Or star spots, just as the sun has sun spots, some stars have spots that move along their surface as the star rotates.

But you can recognize that because that will, the way in which the light is blocked will have a particular shape to it, and it will always be half the orbital or rotational period of the star.

So what I did is I just looked through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these Kepler stars, and they have a name that's basically a number, you know, 75362 whatever, because there's so many stars out there that only the brighter ones have a proper name.

Granted, God calls them all by their names, but we can't do that. We don't have those that many words. So it's going to be named after that.

And then the name of the first planet that's discovering after, around that star, gets a lowercase b.

So the name of my planet is some number b. And pretty generic.

But there's now several thousand of these extrasolar planets that astronomers have found. So it's not as big of a deal as a lot of people think.

But it is cool. It was neat to see something that other people have not seen yet. That's one of the cool things about doing original scientific research, is you discover this little secret that, you know, for a few minutes it's known only to you and God, and that's kind of neat.

And then you want to share with everybody, and then everybody knows it. But it's still neat. Well, thank you,

Terry. And guess what, Terry, you won the final copy of Taking Back Astronomy that we have to give away.

So we thank you for your excellent question. And you are also getting a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB. Make sure you give us your full mailing address in California, so we can have

CVBBS .com ship out the book and the Bible to you.

Let's see here. We have Scott from Stroke -on -Trent in Staffordshire, England.

And I'm sorry if I mispronounced the name of your city in England, Scott. Staffordshire, Staffordshire, Staffordshire.

Reading the Bible literally easily indicates creation. Reading the Bible in exactly the same way easily indicates geocentricism, or geocentrism,

I'm sorry. Geocentrism was accepted by the vast majority until the 16th century.

Nowhere in Scripture does the Bible indicate that the earth orbits the sun. In Genesis chapter 1, verse 1, the very first line of Scripture states that in the beginning

God created the heaven and the earth. The sun was not created until day 4.

In Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends from heaven on earth and God will dwell with man and no need of the sun.

Heliocentricity is just a branch of Big Bang cosmology. There is no scientific reason why earth could not be in the center of the universe since Einstein's theory of relativity came along.

Why do the big creationist groups like yourself and Answers in Genesis not accept geocentrism, which is clearly the position taught by the

Bible, if read literally? Yes, a friend of mine,

Roman Catholic apologist Robert St. Genes, who has debated my dear friend

Dr. James R. White on a number of occasions, and of course I sided with Dr.

White on all those debates, but Robert is my friend nonetheless, and he actually was involved in the creation of a documentary supporting geocentrism.

But if you could comment on Scott from England's question. Well, first of all, the

Bible does not anywhere teach geocentrism. Now, I don't think it teaches necessarily heliocentrism either, as far as I can tell, the

Bible is silent on that issue. The question being asked really is which of the objects in the universe is in motion, but the thing you need to remember is motion is relative, because motion is defined as a change in position over a change in time.

That's what motion is. But what do you mean by position? In order for something to have a position, it needs to be relative to something else.

So if you ask me where I live and I say, oh, you know, I'm 10 miles south of the center of Colorado Springs, that makes sense.

But if you ask where I live and I say, oh, I'm 10 miles, that doesn't make any sense, because you have no point of reference.

And so positions always require what we might call a coordinate system. They require an origin, they require some object, either physical or conceptual, with which to gauge position.

And if that object is itself moving relative to some other object, then something can be in motion from one person's point of view and not in motion from another person's point of view.

And we readily recognize this when somebody, maybe the mother's driving and your two kids are in the back and they're moving around and they're being rambunctious, and the mother says, you stop that,

I don't want you to move for the remainder of this trip. And they hold perfectly still. Are they moving?

Well, the car's moving and they're in the car, so they're moving relative to the earth. But if they behave themselves, they're not moving relative to the backseat.

Motion is inherently relative. So the question is, is the earth moving? And in order for that question to be meaningful,

I have to ask, relative to what? Now, the earth is not moving relative to the earth, that should be obvious.

But is the earth moving relative to the sun? Yes. Does the sun move relative to the earth? Of course. Does the earth move relative to Mars?

Yes, it does. Does Mars move relative to the earth? Yes, it does. Motion is inherently relative. And so what the heliocentric solar system is all about is motion in a

Newtonian sense, where you have laws of physics, like F equals ma, and object in motion tends to remain in motion, let's act with a line outside force, for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.

Based on these laws, we can describe acceleration, we can describe a change in motion. And the earth experiences the same, the sun doesn't, in terms of the center of the solar system.

And we do know that the earth orbits the sun scientifically, because we can measure, for example, Doppler shifts of stars.

So when the earth's on one side of the sun, you get a different Doppler shift than what's on the other, because our motion is different. Our relative motion to that star is different.

So heliocentrism, in the physics sense, is something that can be demonstrated scientifically. The Bible doesn't say, one way or another, in terms of Newtonian physics, there are verses that says the earth shall not be moved.

But there's another verse where the psalmist says, I shall not be moved. Does King David mean he's going to be stationary his whole life?

Of course not. He means he's not going to deviate from the path that God created for him, which is really the meaning of the word mot, to slip or fall.

So the earth is also not going to deviate from the path that God created for it. So again, it's very important that we don't take more from the scriptures than they actually say.

Otherwise, we end up sometimes developing a science model that we think is scriptural, but it really isn't.

And we're embarrassed to find evidence to the contrary. We do have to be careful about that. We have,

I'll give this individual's full name, since he is an old earth creationist, and has been involved with the promotion of a book supporting that view.

The Grand Canyon Monument to an Ancient Earth. Can Noah's Flood explain the

Grand Canyon? His name is Ken Wolgamuth from Tulsa, Oklahoma.

And let me find Dr. Wolgamuth's question. I think he is

Dr. Wolgamuth. Dear Brother Chris, I want to say that I pray this guided by the

Holy Spirit and in Christian love. As you know, I am an old earth creationist, like Ken Samples, and committed to authority and inerrancy of scripture.

I cannot know why some geologists said to Dr. Lyle that radiometric dating was backed up by astronomy.

I am a geochemist, and the age of the earth was determined from the decay of uranium -238 to lead -206.

This was published in 1955. AR -AR, I'm not sure what that means, is tested directly from the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79

A .D. There is no circular reasoning over to astronomers.

How can I say this best in Christian love? The story Dr. Lyle is telling your audience about we Christian geochemists is incorrect and very misleading to your audience.

I do not question Dr. Lyle is very sincere about his beliefs, but he has not made the effort to understand the scientific methods of radiometric dating.

I continue to pray for Dr. Lyle that he could learn to present our old earth creationist position correctly.

What would your response to Dr. Lyle be? Well, I'm sorry, but he's badly mistaken.

He doesn't seem to be knowledgeable with this issue. The fact is the age of the earth was determined by secularists from measuring the decay rates of, for example, uranium -to -lead decay in meteorites, not in earth rocks.

And you say, well, why would they do that? And it has to do with the way that secular astronomers believe that the solar system and the earth formed.

That's what you think, well, why don't they use earth rocks instead of meteorites? That's why it comes from the astronomer's model of the solar system.

And the question, by the way, the specific question that my geology teacher was addressing was how do we know that they're right?

How do we calibrate them? And she was arguing that on the basis of other data from the solar system that you could calibrate radiometric dating.

But the fact is radiometric dating has been shown to not work on rocks of known age.

You can take a rock from a recent volcanic eruption in Hawaii, send it in and have it dated, you'll get millions of years, or at least hundreds of thousands of years.

Even though it's a brand new rock, you could stick your pole in it and it could harden, you know, the magma, and it could harden on your pole, so then you're going to get hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

We know this. And there are lots of other examples of that as well. When Mount St. Helens erupted, some geologists took some rocks from that, brand new rocks, sent them in, you get hundreds of thousands of years, when we know they're brand new.

So radiometric dating has been demonstrated to not work on rocks of known age. It is therefore irrational to believe that it works on rocks of unknown age.

Kind of like if I gave you a calculator and you put two plus two equals, and it said 56 ,376 ,202, and I said, well, don't worry, it works on big numbers.

I mean, I don't think you would buy that. You would say, no, this method has been demonstrated to be unreliable. And the brilliant research that was done by the folks at the rate group, the radioisotopes of the age of the earth, they found very compelling evidence that one of the assumptions of radiometric dating, which is that the decay rates are constant, is in fact false.

Now, we know under certain conditions that that can be changed. For example, the radium -osmium reaction can be sped up in a laboratory by a factor of a billion.

So we know that those rates are not as constant as the secularists believe. So I would just encourage

Christians out there who are thinking, you know, there's this science that challenges the biblical time scale. When you look into it, there really isn't.

And you can have any, by the way, even if we didn't know the answer, you can still have confidence in God's word.

There's no doubt that God really did create in six days. God does know how to tell time, and he knows how to communicate to us.

He really did create in six days and rested as one as a pattern for us. That's where our work week comes from.

That's why we have a seven -day week. That's the pattern that God made for us. God doesn't need to rest, but he knew that we would, and so he rested for a day as an example for us to follow.

So you can have confidence in the Bible. And it's just interesting that we now have answers for some of these things that, you know, a century ago, or a half -century ago, we didn't really know the answer to some things like radiometric dating.

We knew something was wrong with it, but we didn't know which of the many assumptions that are made in radiometric dating is false.

And now we think we have the answer to that. So it's an exciting time to be a biblical creationist. Well, thank you,

Ken. And I am always interested in organizing debates, as you know, and would be more than happy to help orchestrate either a debate on my radio show or at some public venue on any of these issues involving old versus young earth creationism.

We have, let's see here, well, actually,

I'm going to go to my final break before I go to a listener question from Orange County, California.

Forgive me if I'm mispronouncing your name, but it's either Ashot or Ash Show, or it might be something different than either of those.

Another first time questioner. In fact, I'll even ask one of his questions before I go to the break, and you can answer it when we return.

I understand that dark matter is the boogeyman that scientists are using to explain things that don't make sense.

Can you give me a bit of a deeper explanation as to what scientists are claiming is evidence?

How do I discuss the topic with somebody who's also scientifically trained?

We'll have you answer that question when we return from our final break. And don't go away, folks.

We're going to be right back, and we'll hopefully be able to answer all of the questions that are still awaiting us while time still permits.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Don't go away. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. Welcome back this is Chris Arntzen and this is the final segment of our interview today with Dr.

Jason Lyle. And we had, before the break, read a question that I am going to re -read that question for the sake of you tuned in late.

Asho or Ashot or something that is neither of those in Orange County, California said,

I understand that dark matter is the boogeyman scientists are using to explain things that don't make sense.

Can you give me a bit of a deeper explanation as to what scientists are claiming as evidence?

And how do I discuss this topic with somebody who's also scientifically trained? Okay, well a lot of times when

Christians first hear about dark matter they think that it's maybe a rescuing device to explain some kind of evolutionary scenario.

It really isn't. I would say that the reasons that many astronomers, myself included, believe in dark matter

I think are very good reasons. They have nothing to do with positions on origins. They're driven by our observations.

They're driven by evidence. Basically dark matter is kind of a generic term we give for anything that we have not seen, but we know it's there because it has exhibited a gravitational pull on something that we can see.

And so I think the first example of dark matter would be the planet Neptune. Before anyone had seen

Neptune in a telescope, two mathematicians figured out that it was there because of the way it was pulling on the planet

Uranus, altering the orbit of Uranus very slightly. And so before anybody looked at it, Neptune was technically dark matter.

We knew it was there because it was pulling on something else that we could see, but we hadn't yet seen it. And then of course once they saw it, it's no longer dark matter because we can see it now.

There is evidence that in our galaxy there is something, a substance, or perhaps many objects, more likely a substance, that is pulling on stars, causing them to orbit faster than they would if that substance were not there.

Using basic physics, the physics that Newton discovered, we can calculate when a star is orbiting.

We can calculate the mass that is interior to that star's orbit. This is actually very easy to do.

It's something that you could learn, you know, even an undergraduate physicist would learn something like that, how to do that.

And we find that the amount of mass, for example, in most galaxies is 10 times what you would expect if we just added up all the mass from the stars and the dust and the gas, all the mass that we can see, that tells us that 90 % of the mass is something that we can't see.

And it turns out also the way light bends. Light bends under the influence of gravity. It's a very slight effect on Earth, we don't notice it.

But when a galaxy, light from a distant galaxy, passes by a nearer galaxy, it gets bent by the gravity of all the mass of that galaxy.

And that is an independent way of determining the mass of that galaxy. And we get the same answer. We get that there's about 10 times more mass than can be accounted for simply by stars, gas, and dust.

And we don't know what it is yet. And it's interesting because it has to be some kind, we think it's some kind of substance that doesn't interact very well with matter, which is why we can't detect in a laboratory, at least not as yet.

But it's an example. It's something that God has, I think, perhaps placed in the universe to remind us that first of all, not everything glows.

And secondly, you can have good reasons for believing in something that you can't see. And I think that's a good lesson for Christians, because we believe in a

God who is normally invisible, a God who we can't see. But no one can really logically make, no scientist can come along and say, well, that's ridiculous, if they believe in dark matter, because they're also believing in something that they can't see based on evidence.

Well, Ash Shell, thank you so much. And by the way, although we ran out of taking back astronomy, we do still have

New American Standard Bible. Since you're a first -time questioner, give us your full mailing address and we'll have the cvbbs .com

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship you out a free New American Standard Bible. And we will also ask your second question if we have time, in fairness to our other listeners who have questions, we're going to them.

A friend of mine who has been a guest on this program a number of times, Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, says, do you believe that theistic evolution is a fatal heresy?

I'm assuming he means by that damnable. Well, I hate getting into these kinds of issues, because basically people are kind of asking, how far away can we get from God's truth before you're out of the kingdom?

As my Bible says, we're saved by God's grace, received through faith in Christ. And so I don't want to add or subtract from that.

The question is, can you really have faith in Christ if you don't believe what he believes about Genesis?

But then again, Christians who believe in theistic evolution would probably say, well, we do believe in the way

Jesus thought, we just don't interpret it the way you do. Now, I think the theology behind theistic evolution is terrible, but I'm not going to say that somebody can't be saved if they have an incorrect position on Genesis, because we're saved by God's grace, not by perfect theology.

Praise God, because I'm sure we all get it a little bit off. But that being said,

I do think it's an important issue, because if you were logically consistent and you believed in theistic evolution, then you shouldn't believe in the gospel, because theistic evolution requires death before sin, in which case death is not the penalty for Adam's sin, and if that's not the penalty for sin, why did

Jesus have to die on the cross? So I do think it undermines the gospel, but praise God for blessed inconsistency.

People can, on the one hand, embrace the gospel and be saved, and on the other hand, they can have some inconsistencies in their theology in other areas.

Let me plug Pastor Bruce's website for Word of Truth Church in Farmingville. It's WOTChurch .com.

WOTChurch .com. Thank you, Pastor Bruce. Look forward to a time of fellowship next time I'm in New York.

Let's see here. We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

I'm not fully committed to either position on the debate between young earth and old earth creation, but as Chris Known, bad grammar,

Ted, I lean toward old earth creation. I recently saw your

YouTube debate with Hugh Ross hosted by that young Latino pastor whose name escapes me.

That's Eli Ayala, and I thought it was outstanding. You probably earned more credibility points with me than any other source

I've been exposed to. I'm interested in reading up on the young earth creation versus old earth creation debate, but as a non -scientist,

I find that I am often unable to adjudicate the arguments of each side because I simply lack the scientific training.

Can you suggest some sources, ideally on both sides, if you are willing and able, that make compelling arguments that are nonetheless easy for the lay reader to understand?

Yeah, actually, the Biblical Science Institute website, I would highly recommend that.

We have a number of articles on that topic there. I have a book, I mentioned it earlier, called

Understanding Genesis, where I go into much greater depth, and I interact with Hugh's book,

Navigating Genesis. So I read his book, and then I responded to some of the claims, actually just about all his

Biblical claims in that book. Something, too, I would highly encourage you to think about is what is your ultimate standard, what is your ultimate authority?

Because a lot of people think, let me look at the scientific issues, and then that will tell me how to interpret

Scripture. I would suggest the reverse. I would suggest that God knows how to write a book, get your hermeneutic right, make sure you're interpreting the

Scriptures properly. That will tell you something about the age of the earth. And then you can look at the science, and you can say, okay, now how do we interpret this?

Because there's always going to be new scientific data, and that's why I recommend people not marrying their theology to a particular view of science.

You've got to be very careful about that. But I'm encouraged by what you said, and I just hope that you keep studying this issue.

Again, get Understanding Genesis. If you want to see Hugh Ross's position, his book is called Navigating Genesis. You can go on his website, read them both, and then go to Scripture and see what the

Bible says. Thank you, Ted, in Moundville, Alabama. We have the ever -mysterious person who always uses an alias,

Lam -Lam, and Lam -Lam says, was there any mention of UFOs and extraterrestrials in your book,

Taking Back Astronomy? I think so. I think I have a brief section on that, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, UFOs, any object that's flying that you can't identify, and so that people have seen

UFOs that I know are satellites, for example, that I know what they are, they don't know what they are. So there's no problem there.

In terms of extraterrestrial life, I personally don't think we'll find that out in space. You find when you read

Scripture that the Earth is so specially designed for life. And I'll grant, the Bible doesn't say there's not

EPs out there, but it does raise some theological problems. I do think, I can't promise it, but I do think it's in the book

Taking Back Astronomy. I do think I have a small section on EPs and UFOs. Well, if you could quickly answer a question from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, about the

Northern Lights in Alaska. I've seen pictures, but never seen there to be them, never been there to see them in person.

Can you give us information on how your Heavenly, our Heavenly Father causes this spectacular exhibit of His creation?

Yes, it's caused by the jiggling of Earth's magnetic field. Earth has a magnetic field that surrounds us like an invisible shield, and it protects us from cosmic rays.

And when the Sun has what's called a coronal mass ejection, where it'll release a burst of material, that material's magnetized.

And if it's kind of directed toward the Earth, the Earth will protect us from that radiation, but it'll jiggle the magnetic field lines around the

Earth. And the closer you are to Earth's magnetic pull, the more likely you are to see this jiggling effect.

And it's very, very common if you live in Alaska, very, very common. Occasionally, it gets down. I'm in Colorado now.

I've seen it just once, the auroras makes it down to Colorado, and two or three times in Ohio, because Ohio is a little closer to the magnetic pull than Colorado, even though the latitude's the same.

So that's what you're seeing, the jiggling of the magnetic fields, and that jiggles ionized particles. And when you move an ionized particle, it will emit light.

You get these wonderful colors, and sometimes curtains. It can be quite spectacular. And the website for the

Biblical Science Institute, founded by Dr. Lyle, our guest today, is biblicalscienceinstitute .com,

biblicalscienceinstitute .com. Thank you so much, Dr. Lyle. I look forward to frequent return visits from you on Iron Chirp and Zion Radio.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater