LDS Roleplaying: Listen to a Sample Gospel Presentation

2 Timothy 2 and the Call to Be Ready to Give a Defense

To present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -8111.

That's 602 -274 -1360. Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360. That's 1 -888 -550 -1360. And now with today's topic, here's James White.

Preparing for the LDS Easter Pageant Outreach

And welcome to the Dividing Line on this Saturday afternoon. My name is James White and today we are going to be continuing our preparation, shall we say, for the upcoming outreach at the General Conference of the LDS Church in Salt Lake City and, for those of you in the local Phoenix area, at the Mesa Easter Pageant that's coming up the week before Easter.

Easter is really, really, really, really late this year. It is, I believe, the 23rd or 24th of April. So we're looking at way at the end of April. We, that is volunteers from Alpha and Omega Ministries, will be attending the annual Easter Pageant, which takes place in the front lawn of the LDS Temple in Mesa a couple of years ago.

Not last year, but the year before that. They had about 125 ,000 people attend over the five nights, at least of the English performance of the Easter Pageant there. And this is one of the major proselytizing outreaches, shall we say, of the LDS Church, mainly due to the fact that the presentation has basically no specific LDS doctrine within it that would be easily recognizable to the person who doesn't know the background of Mormonism.

There is a little bit of LDS doctrine in it, in the idea that the Atonement begins in the Garden of Gethsemane, in the presentation of the Passion of Christ. But other than that, there's almost no specific LDS doctrine, unique LDS doctrine that appears in it.

And therefore, lots of folks will come into the Easter Pageant and will go, hey, this sort of looks like something the Lutherans would put on, or the Methodists would put on, or something like that. And yet these folks are much nicer, so let's think about joining up with them.

And so the missionaries are kept very, very busy following up on the cards that are turned in, people requesting a copy of the Book of Mormon. Of course, there are missionaries all over the place during the Easter Pageant, talking with people.

And so we've been out there, well, I first saw the Easter Pageant in 1983, so that would be 17 years ago. And we started the regular outreach there in 1985. And so it's been a number of years we've been doing this, and we'll be doing it again.

And so here on The Dividing Line, what we're going to be doing is helping you to prepare to witness to the LDS people. And even though I didn't get to hear the program last week, I'd like to thank Mike Munoz and those who joined with him for filling in for me while I was teaching down in Tucson.

And the week before that, however, we started discussing James Chapter 2. And so what we're going to do today is we're going to do something that I'm rather famous for, at least amongst the people who have worked with Alpha Omega Ministries over the years.

We are going to do a role play. And the role play will involve the issue of salvation primarily, but we are going to have Elder Johnson join with us in the studio here. Elder Johnson and I have done this, I don't know, it was about eight years ago or so, I don't remember what it was.

I had more hair back then. You have about the same amount you had then. But we did a role play. And now Elder Johnson, you've been talking on this subject for a long, long time. And, of course, I'm calling you Elder Johnson with a little bit of a tongue-in-cheek there.

But you've spoken with a few LDS people over the years. When did you start doing this kind of work? Well, I guess we started working together probably in 1987. Okay, that's a little while ago. You were younger at that time.

A lot younger. And actually you've gone out to another state and helped work with another ministry of someone that you know that is involved in dealing with Mormonism as well. Yep. Who's that? My grandfather, John L. Smith.

And he runs, he's really actually right now the Director Emeritus of Utah Missions Incorporated, which is another ministry which normally focuses on educating the Christian community about Mormonism and the problems associated with the beliefs and its departure from the Bible basically reflecting on what it is that makes up Mormonism and why it's bad for the Christian community.

Now for a time, wasn't that ministry a part of the Southern Baptist Convention and then it left? Originally the ministry was independent, but then I believe some five or six years ago, maybe not so long ago, it was actually an arm of the Home Mission Board.

Right. And went ahead and worked with them in tandem to do what they could to educate. But is that still the case now or has that changed? No, they went ahead and separated. Right, that's what I thought.

Yeah, and now they're independent again. Right. Well, I know that a lot of missionaries, is that still in Marlow, Oklahoma? Yes. Okay, I know a lot of missionaries stop by and get their pictures taken and stuff.

Didn't you have some missionaries take pictures with you or something like that sometime when you were there? I don't think so. Anyway, so you've spoken to a number of LDS missionaries, and so what we're going to do is Elder Johnson is going to role play the LDS position and give the same type of answers that we would expect to hear when we are in Salt Lake City or when we're in Mesa, whatever it might be, and then basically use that as a springboard for discussion.

Basically, we will be passing out tracts, some of which deal with James 2, some of which, for example, our tract Grace Plus Works is Dead. And so for the purposes of this particular interaction, you might want to picture it like this.

So we're standing out in Mesa. A group of missionaries have come by, and this has happened many, many times. A group of missionaries have come by. We've offered them literature. They've taken some of it.

The specific tract that I've passed out is Grace Plus Works is Dead Being Meaningless, which is a tract that talks about what righteousness is, what faith is, what grace is, and how if you add human works to the grace of Christ, the grace of God, that you've destroyed it, and therefore Grace Plus Works is dead.

And so what will happen very frequently is the missionaries come by. They'll take the tract, and then maybe later on during the week or later on during the evening, that group or a single person from that group will come back and will want to engage us in some discussion based upon what they've read in the tract.

And so Elder Johnson has taken one of those tracts and has gone into the pageant, and having seen the pageant 16 ,478 times previously, as many of the young people there have, which is why they come out and talk to us, because if you've seen this thing since the time you were knee-high to a grasshopper, by the time you get to about 14, you're like really, really, really bored.

But Elder Johnson has come back out and has the tract with him and is going to talk with me about what the tract is saying. So we're going to slip into our role play now and do that for a little while.

We do have one person on the line, and we'll try to get to that phone call as soon as we can, but we do have a topic today, so we hope that you'll stay online there. And if you have questions that you'd like to ask, let me just give you the number real quickly before we get started.

It's 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360 is the long-distance number if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area. So Elder Johnson has come up to me and has asked if this is literature that we're distributing, and I have said yes, and so I'll go ahead and get us started there.

Did you have an opportunity to read the tract? Yes, I did read it. And I guess just before I get into some of the subjects about James 2 and some of the other things, what salvation means in the tract, what I'd really like to know is why are you guys here?

Grace, Works, and the LDS View of Salvation

Well, we've been here for a long time, and the primary reason that we're here is that we love the LDS people. We love God and His truth. And I see you're a missionary. I would assume that you go out and you share the LDS message with people, some of whom appreciate what you have to say, but many, I would imagine, as a missionary, you've experienced the slammed door syndrome, the go-get-em-Fido syndrome, and things like that.

You've had some people who haven't been appreciative of your going to their home, right? Right, right. I guess so. But, I mean, we go and we talk to people, and if they'd like to hear us, we talk to them.

We don't show up at their church and pass out tracts Sunday while they're going into church and that kind of thing. We're not trying to upset anybody or disturb some kind of public event that's going on.

We just go to people's homes and try to spread the gospel as best we know how. I just don't see you guys doing that here. That's one of the differences between us, is that just as the apostles, for example, would go into the Jewish synagogue because they wanted to preach the gospel to the Jews, so, too, if we want to share with LDS people, where better to go than to hear or to the Palmyra pageant or go up to the General Conference of the LDS Church in Salt Lake City as we do?

The reason is we have a specific burden for the LDS people. We've taken the time to learn what Mormonism teaches in a fair and accurate manner, and we want to share the gospel with you. Now, as far as not showing up at our church Sunday morning, well, we'd probably just invite you in as many people have invited us to go watch the pageant here as well.

But let me suggest something to you. When you go into someone's home, only one side is being heard. That is your side. That person may not really have a lot of knowledge of what the issues are. Out here, we're standing on public property, and both sides can be heard and can be heard fairly.

So I think, especially when we're talking about the fact that we believe that Mormonism is presenting falsehoods, even though sincere people may believe it, the fact that both sides can be heard is a very important thing.

Okay. So the tract was talking about the title. What did you think of that title? Grace plus works is dead. Did that make any sense to you? Well, I'd have to say that the last time I read the Bible, it really said faith without works is dead.

It does. Right? I mean, that's what James 2 is really all about. You can't just have faith. You have to have works with faith. Otherwise, the faith is just not, you know, it doesn't count. It doesn't count.

Well, you know, the reason that we titled the tract the way that we did is that we were trying to get across one point. And we'll talk about James 2 here in a minute. But I borrowed from that phraseology because while it is true that faith without works is dead, that is, that a saving faith is never alone, grace plus works is dead is true as well.

And the reason for that is what Paul says in Romans 11, 6. If it is on the basis of grace, it's no longer the basis of works. Otherwise, grace is no longer grace. There's something about grace. That's what we're really trying to communicate in the tract.

There's something about grace that does not allow any addition of human activities. Now, let me ask you. I assume that you've obviously, since you're an elder, you've gone through the temple. You've read the Book of Mormon, for example.

Yes. And you undoubtedly have prayed about the Book of Mormon in light of Moroni 10, 4 and 5 and have a testimony that it is true, right? Yes, sir. Okay. And you've asked, are you surprised that I know Moroni 10, 4 and 5?

I'm quite surprised, yes. Well, you know, in that very same chapter of Moroni, we read these words in verse 32, Moroni 10, 32. Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness.

And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ. And if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in no wise deny the power of God.

Did you notice that word, then? You have to deny yourself of all ungodliness. You have to love God with all your heart, mind, and strength. Then is his grace sufficient for you. That's the Mormon view of grace as something that helps someone.

That it's something that you can't make it on your own, so God's grace meets you when you've put forth your own best effort. That's almost a direct quote from your LDS Bible dictionary as to what grace is.

The Bible's view of grace is very different than that, and that's what we were trying to communicate to you. Well, I don't know about that. I think if you read, for example, you brought up the Book of Mormon.

We can look at it just a minute. 2 Nephi 31 .20 basically says that,. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men.

Wherefore, and here's the key, If ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father, you shall have eternal life. And it just echoes passages like James chapter 2, 1 John 2, 3 and 5, where it says,.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. And so, I guess it's just all, if you really look at what the Bible says, you look at what the Book of Mormon says, They both agree that faith without works is dead.

You know, I know you can point us to specific passages here and there that might say one thing or the other. But, when I read both books, I see that they agree in not only that, but on this subject especially, that faith without works is dead.

Well, I will certainly agree with you that the Book of Mormon presents a works-oriented system of salvation. For example, 2 Nephi 25 .23 says, For we, he says, know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

And the Mormon Church has interpreted that to mean that we do our own best effort. We put forth our best effort. And then grace meets us at that point. The problem is, I would identify the Book of Mormon view, including the passage that you just quoted, as a mission impossible plan of salvation.

And it is interesting that the passages you cited from 1 John, James chapter 2, do not have the, If you'll do this, then, type of language. In fact, when you quote from 1 John, it's talking there about the fact that, How can we know that we're in him?

How can we know that we have a relationship with God? Well, it's going to manifest itself in the way that we live. It's not talking to us about how we enter into that relationship. Instead, it's talking to us about how we know that we have that relationship.

And those are two different things. The Book of Mormon is directly saying, You enter into this relationship in this way, by doing these things, and then grace meets you. The problem is, the biblical presentation is not that we're saved after all we can do.

It's we're saved in spite of all we've done. It seems to me that you have the idea that there can be things that we do, that are good in God's sight, just inherently. Would you, for example, think that you're going door-to-door right now, and sharing your message with people?

Is that something that's one of those good works that is mentioned there in the Book of Mormon, that is pleasing in God's sight? Sure. Sure. All right. Have you looked through Isaiah chapter 53, where the scriptures tell us that even our righteous deeds, that is, the best deeds we can ever do, are as filthy rags in God's sight?

You see, one of the differences between us is that Christians believe that God is absolutely holy. And I know that you would say you believe God is holy as well. But you would also believe that God is an exalted man from another planet, and that you yourself, if you remain faithful to your calling, can likewise become exalted and become a god.

Christians believe that God has never been a man in the past, and has been progressed to the position of godhood. And the result of that is that we believe that God is absolutely holy, and His law is very, very straightforward.

The standard to enter into His presence is absolute perfection. Now, let me ask you. Back there in Moroni, we read about, if you'll deny yourself of all ungodliness. Have you done that? Uh, well, let me ask you this.

No, no, no, no. Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? I've got to tell you, I've done the best that I could. You're doing the best you can do. Well, you know, and I respect that, you're doing the best that you can do.

But it also says that you're to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Do you love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Every second. To the best of my ability. Well, you know, it's interesting.

I haven't found the phrase, to the best of my ability, in Moroni chapter 10 or 2 Nephi chapter 25. I don't find to the best of my ability in those passages. You know, but we do find things like Matthew 7, 21, for example.

Basically, Jesus was talking and He said, Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Not he that believes, or he that has faith, or he that trusts me, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That's the person that's going to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The person acting in that passage there is the person doing the will of my Father. But the problem that you have is that by ignoring the clear statements of Scripture that speak of faith alone being the means of salvation.

We'll look at those in just a moment. In fact, I'm going to ask you to read some passages for me. There is another way to understand the passage that you're citing. You see, there are many passages that describe what Christians are like.

Christians are described as doing good works. For example, in Ephesians chapter 2, verse 10, it talks about the fact that we are Christ's workmanship created in him unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

So Christians are created to do good works. And so the only ones who can do the will of the Father are those who, and point of fact, have been saved. So what you have to determine is whether a passage is saying, by doing the will of the Father, whatever you may define that to be, I'm not sure what you would understand that to be, but by doing the will of the Father, you become a Christian, or is the passage saying that Christians are the ones who do the will of the Father?

And if we allow the Bible to speak for itself, it is very, very clear as to which one of those two is the case, specifically because of the fact that there is no person outside of God's sovereignly saving them who can even begin to do the law of God.

Do you think that it's possible for just any old person to do what God's law says to do? Probably not. Do you think that... How do you do the will of the Father, since you said only those who do the will of the Father?

What is that? Just tell me this, okay? Let me ask you this. Are you saying that a Christian, a person who's saved, in your opinion, could go out, commit murder, and still be saved? Well, you know, it's very interesting when people ask that question.

I always ask them, do you know that you just quoted Scripture? Because Paul raised that very objection to his own viewpoint in Romans chapter 6, and he says, what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound or grace might increase?

And he said, may it never be. How shall we who die to sin still live in it? And so the Christian viewpoint is that a person, first and foremost, is unable, outside of the grace of God, to even make the first move toward Christ.

God is the one, by His sovereign grace, who has to draw a person to Himself. And when a person is saved, they're made a new creature in Christ. The Bible says that their old stony heart is taken out, a new heart is placed within them.

They are a new creature in Christ. So as a result of that, they will want to do good works, not so as to become saved, but because it is now their nature to do those good works. And so when you talk about how it is that a person is saved, from your perspective, a person has to be baptized, a person has to go through the various things that the Church presents, the Four Fundamentals, the Gospel, faith, repentance, baptism, laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit, and then continued obedience to Gospel ordinances and principles until the end of your day, if you want to receive exaltation.

The Bible says that the person who believes in Jesus Christ and does not work is the one who receives His righteousness, His justification. You know where it says that? If you've got your Bible there, why don't you turn to Romans chapter 4, and it's very, very interesting what the Apostle Paul says here, because of how Joseph Smith did not understand this.

Specifically, Romans chapter 4, beginning of verse 4 says, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Now let me stop you there and just make sure you understand what he's saying.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. That is, you get done with your mission here, you go back home, you go to BYU or wherever it is you're going to end up going, and you get a job, you're working your way through, you're working hard, you show up on a Friday and your boss walks in and hands you your paycheck.

And then he says, here's a gift. And you're going to look at him and go, wait a minute, I put in my 20 or 30 or 40 hours, whatever it was that you put in, to earn this paycheck. And so what you've worked for is not grace, it's not a gift, it's simply what you're owed.

And when you do work, you're owed a reward. So Paul says to him that works, the reward isn't reckoned as a gift, but as what is due to that person. But look at verse 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So notice something. To him that worketh not. Now before you jump there, Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 says that we are saved so that we might do good works. There's a difference here between doing good works to get that paycheck, to get that reward, and having faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

God is the one who declares righteousness to the ungodly. That's something God does. That's something we do. And the only way we receive this act of justification is by faith and faith alone. If we try to do something to merit it, to earn it, to cause God to give it to us, then the Bible tells us we're not going to receive it.

And you know, I'm not sure if you see in your LDS edition of the Scriptures there, but there is a change. Joseph Smith did not understand this, so he had to change the text of the Bible to where it says, believe within him that does not justify the ungodly.

He had to turn it on its head. I think Joseph Smith was just trying to make it a little clearer. By putting the word not in it? Isn't that 180 degrees opposite? Well, it's making it clearer for the LDS person to understand what it means.

If you look at Romans chapter 2, Romans 2 .13, it basically says to us, For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. There's two problems there. First of all, it ignores the context.

And that is, Paul is addressing Jews here who thought that by merely possessing the law that they are just before God. And he's pointing out, no, merely possessing the law does not make you just before God.

Doing the law makes you just before God. And he then goes on to prove nobody does it. Nobody is able to do the works of the law. And that's why he says in chapter 3, after saying there's none that understands, there's none that seeks after God, he says in verse 20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And so, if you're going to look at 2 .13 and say, well, we can do the works of law to become justified, you're skipping the fact that Paul then says there is no one who does that, except for one. And that is Jesus Christ, who lived a perfectly sinless life.

And see, this is why I think any LDS person takes a look at this issue and sees what Romans has to say. Basically, I think this is the reason why we have Latter-day Revelation. It's to make things more complete.

To give us a better understanding of what we're looking at. Well, you know, a lot of folks have that idea. And I think one important thing I said we'd get to, and we haven't gotten to it yet, and for some strange reason, even though we're standing out here in Mace, I feel time pressure for some weird reason.

I don't understand why. But be that as it may, given that I have this time pressure, there is one passage we didn't get to. And that was, you mentioned early on, one of the favorite passages of all LDS people, it seems.

And that is James Chapter 2. And specifically you said, Faith thou works is dead. That comes from James 2 .20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith thou works is dead. And then it goes on to talk about Abraham and how our father Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Now, the problem with this is that you need to recognize, first of all, who James is writing to. James is writing to Christians, and he's talking about how it is that a Christian is to live the Christian life in such a way as to bring honor and glory to God.

And beginning in verse 14, he has said, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? The kind of faith that he is decrying, the kind of faith that he is saying cannot save an individual is the kind of faith that is an empty faith.

It's a faith that is exhibited by verse 14, verse 15, when it says, If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needed for the body, what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone. The point is, he's talking here not about the faith that saves that the Apostle Paul talks about. The faith that saves, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2, 8 -10, is a gift from God.

It is something God gives to his people. It's saving faith, and the faith that James is talking about is a said faith. It is a faith that says something, but does not do anything. It exists only in the realm of words, not in the realm of reality.

And so he points to Abraham and says, Wasn't Abraham justified by works? Well, when you go back into the Old Testament, was he? Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, 6 by faith in God, and his offering of Isaac upon the altar took place as many as 20 years later.

Instead we see, as James himself concludes, that his works were working together with his faith, and by his works his faith was perfected. Never confuse what the Christians are saying. Christians are not saying that good works are something that are irrelevant.

Christians are saying that good works flow from a changed heart and a changed life, and that we can't get the cart before the horse. Well, Elder Johnson, I hear music in the background for some strange reason.

A Jehovah's Witness Question about Revelation 2:27 and the Incarnation

We need to take a break, and we'll be right back here on The Dividing Line. And welcome back to The Dividing Line, my name is James White, and we have been talking about sharing the Gospel with Mormons, and what kind of a conversation to expect in that particular situation.

But before we continue on with Elder Johnson, we got a phone call right at the beginning of the program, all the way from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The question isn't quite on our subject, but we'll go ahead and take a shot at it and talk with David in Albuquerque.

Hi, David.

Hey, Dr. White, great to hear the program.

Hey, are you picking it up via the Internet?

Actually, you know what, I'm not. I'm having trouble for some reason picking it up on the Internet, getting onto the site, but fortunately I saw on your website the phone number and got on the program, and they let me hear the whole program.

Well, that's one way of doing it. So what can we help you with today?

Well, my question today actually isn't about Mormonism, but it's about Jehovah's Witnesses. Last night I was having a chat with quite a number of Jehovah's Witnesses, and we were having a really lively chat and sharing back and forth.

And one thing that they brought up, just as we were about to log off, dealing with the nature of Jesus and why they don't accept Him as God, had to do with their view of Revelation 2 .27, where Jesus says that He has also received authority from His Father.

And so the question had to do with how can God be given anything, especially authority, if He is truly God. Of course, we went through all the other passages, but this was a question that was brought up.

So I was wondering how you would approach this.

Well, you know, it's interesting. I spent about an hour and a half with two Jehovah's Witnesses live, not just via the Internet, but live just this morning and drove straight from there to the studio here today.

And that was sort of one of the issues that was raised. And one of the things that I attempted to share was the constant assertion or assumption on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses of Unitarianism. And that is they will look at any type of passage, and as long as the Father and Jesus have different roles or behave in different ways and doing different things, that this is taken as evidence that Jesus cannot possibly be truly deity, rather than seeing it for what it is, and that is that the Bible clearly distinguishes between the Father and the Son.

I did point out to them, however, and you need to point this out to your friends there online as well, and of course there is a worldwide chat channel called Prosopology on the Internet that we're actually supposed to be monitoring right now, but we didn't.

But anyways, where we sometimes have some of these discussions, you may have noticed that on our webpage. But sharing with them the fact that the Scripture clearly differentiates between the Father and the Son, and that it was the Son who became the God-man, not the Father.

And most of the objections that Jehovah's Witnesses raise in this area are based upon seeing the God-man, Jesus, in subjection to the Father. And their idea seems to be that if the second person of the Trinity became flesh, that somehow he'd be a rebel against the Father.

That rather than being a perfect man who would be in subjection to the Father, who would worship the Father, that somehow he wouldn't do that. And that actually came up in my discussion today. There are a number of things that Jesus, as the God-man, is said to have received from the Father.

And that is perfectly logical in light of the fact that he is the Incarnate One. That is, the Son did not seek to do anything on his own. John chapter 5 is a study in his attempting to clarify people's thinking and let them know, look, the Son does nothing on his own.