SCRIPTURE DEBATE: Who is the Man in Romans 7:14-25?

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Romans chapter 7 verses 14 to 25 is one of the most debated sections of Paul's writing in the

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New Testament. And recently one of my elders and I have been teaching a hermeneutics class together, and we decided for one of the classes to take an opportunity to come at this passage from two different perspectives.

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We hold two different views on this text, and we thought it would be good for the students to watch us explain how we come to our conclusions, and then be able to answer questions and even interact with each other on their positions.

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And so it's important to understand this isn't a real debate. We aren't really going to be doing cross -examination and things like that, but what we are doing is we're both going to present the text in a way that makes sense to us and how we follow our rules of hermeneutics, and we're going to talk about how we come to our conclusions and what causes us to come to those conclusions.

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So what I'd like to do right now is I'd like to read Romans 7 verses 14 to 25, and then

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I'm going to go right into the debate. And the debate is on the question, who is Paul talking about?

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Is Paul talking about himself as a believer, or is

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Paul looking into the past and describing himself when he was a Pharisee, prior to becoming a believer in Jesus Christ?

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That's the two perspectives we're going to talk about and go back and forth on, and I hope you enjoy this video. And let me say one last thing before we start.

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Please take an opportunity and tell us your thoughts in the comments. I'd love to hear your perspective. Maybe you have a third perspective, maybe one that we didn't deal with in this class, and I'd really like to know how you think this goes and if you'd like to see more of this in the future.

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So again, thank you for being a part of today's show. If you like this video, hit the thumbs up. If you don't like it, hit the thumbs down button twice.

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All right, here we go with Romans chapter 7, verses 14 to 25. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

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For I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

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Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law that it is good. So now it is neither, no longer

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I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh, for I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

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For I do not do the good that I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

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Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

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So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

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Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our

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Lord, so then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh

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I serve the law of sin. Romans chapter 7, verses 14 to 25,

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English Standard Version. All right, now that I've read the text, we're going to go into the class.

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You're going to hear me give a 20 -minute presentation on my view, which is that this is Paul talking about himself as a

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Christian. Then Pastor Mike Collier is going to give his view, talking about how he believes this is

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Paul prior to his conversion. Again, please leave comments, let us know what you think.

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Hope you enjoy the video. Well, I want to say from the outset as I begin my presentation that I do believe this is one of the most difficult passages, if not the most difficult passage, to understand in the writings of Paul.

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And we are told in Peter's letters that Paul's writings do have things that are difficult, and that unlearned men and unstable men twist to their own destruction.

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And so I want to say from the outset that I do believe that misunderstanding this text and misapplying this text can lead to destruction.

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It can lead to not only a wrong understanding of who we are in Christ, but it can lead to wrong behavior.

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I have heard men take this text, and I have heard them use it to excuse all kinds of sinful behavior and ungodliness.

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And I want to begin then with the context, which I believe begins back in chapter 6, to eliminate the idea that Paul would be giving us an excuse for sin.

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I do not believe Paul is giving us an excuse for sin, and therefore I want to show why that is the case.

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If we go back to chapter 6 at verse 1, Paul asks a very important question.

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What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

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The answer is meganoita. Absolutely not. May it never be. That is the answer to the question, and if anyone were to apply

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Romans chapter 7 verses 14 to 25 in a way that would make sin in any way other than ungodliness, unrighteousness, or anything that we should apply to our lives and say it's okay to sin, then we know right away that is not

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Paul's point. And so we have to at least admit that. Romans chapter 6 begins the portion that many scholars consider to be the sanctification portion of Paul's letter to the

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Romans. If you break up Paul's letter to the Romans, we know the first several chapters deal with man's sinfulness.

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Chapters 4, middle of chapter 3 to chapter 5 deal with man's justification, and then chapter 6 on through chapters 9, 10, 11 we can see sanctification and then the results of that in the nation of Israel and the work of Paul's understanding there in Romans chapter 9.

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So in Romans chapter 6, we know that Paul has asked and answered the question, shall we continue in sin so that grace can abound?

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The answer is no. And then we go to verse 14 of chapter 6 and Paul asks, or chapter, excuse me, verse 15, and Paul asks another question.

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He says, what then are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace?

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If you look at verse 14, this is the context. He says, for sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law but under grace.

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Paul tells us there sin doesn't have dominion over us if we are in Christ. Sin is not our

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Lord. Christ is our Lord. So then how? Well, it is like this.

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We are not under law but under grace. So people have used that as an excuse to sin. Verse 15, what then are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace?

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And Paul uses the same negative phrase, by no means. And then he says this, do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of obedience which leads to righteousness, but thanks be to God that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed and having been set free from sin have become slaves of righteousness.

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Paul here is defining us no longer as being enslaved to sin.

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He says we are in fact slaves of righteousness. But therein lies a question.

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Is this new slavery to righteousness, this new position that we are in in Christ, is this absolute in that we no longer sin or no longer struggle with sin?

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The answer is no. Not only because we know that experientially, you know that in your experience you still struggle with sin, but Paul says that in the very next verse.

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Verse 19 says I'm speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations for just as you were you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

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The reason why I'm throwing this out because this is the argument, Paul is saying you have members, you have your body, do not present them as slaves to unrighteousness.

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Why would he have to make this command if that were not an issue? Why would he have to give the imperative don't do this if it's not something that we are going to struggle with?

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And so right there in the imperative in verse 19 he says present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

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Then he goes again in verse 22 he says but now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God the fruit you get leads to sanctification and it's in eternal life.

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This is the fruit of what has happened to us in Christ. It is leading to sanctification.

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It's growth and sanctification. It's not yet complete. I don't think anyone in here,

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I know brother Mike wouldn't, none of us would argue that we have been perfectly and completely sanctified. We all struggle and battle with sin and this is very true in what

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Paul is saying here. He's giving us an imperative because of the process. The process that we have is the process of sanctification.

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Now we move into Romans 7 getting closer as we are to our actual text and Paul begins to ask some questions.

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Verse one he says or do you not know brothers for I am speaking to those who know the law that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives.

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Now Paul's going to give an example of a woman being married to her husband and how when her husband dies she's no longer bound to him and then he stops that illustration at verse four but he uses it and he says likewise my brothers you have died you also have died to the law through the body of Christ so that you may belong to another to him who has been raised from the dead in order that you may bear fruit for God for while we were living in the flesh by the way that's the time marker while we were living in the flesh that's what we were while we were living in the flesh our sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit for death but now present tense we are released from the law having died to that which held us captive in order that or so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the written code and then he asks the same question again what shall we say then is the law sin by no means again following the same pattern of chapter 6 verse 1 and chapter 6 verse 15 should we understand the law as sinful no not at all because the law tells us what sin is he says i would not have known what it is to covet if the law said you shall not covet for sin seizing an opportunity through the commandment produced in me all kinds of covetousness for apart from the law sin lies dead and i was once alive apart from the law past tense but when the commandment came sin came alive and i died again past tense the very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me for sin seizing an opportunity through the commandment deceived me and through it killed me so the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good so did the law which is good bring death to me by no means it was sin producing death in me through what is good in order that sin might be shown to be sin and through the commandment by might become sinful beyond measure so here is before we read verse 14 paul has established certain principles and one of those principles is the understanding of sin as a law or sin as something that actually does exist sin is what brings death sin is what is a violation of the commandment sin is becoming sinful through the commandment becoming sinful beyond measure but now he's going to distinguish it in verse 14 with the law and the flesh and so verse 14 says for we know that the law is spiritual but i am of the flesh sold under sin right away question comes up when paul says i'm of the flesh sold under sin our immediate thought is there's no way that that can be describing a believer because he just in the previous chapter has said that we who are in christ have been liberated how can we say that we're sold under sin if in fact we are liberated in christ but he goes on he says he describes what it means when he says sold under sin and by the way this is important when we're when we're exegeting something is when a phrase is used like sold under sin we need to allow the person writing to establish what that means and he does he says i do not understand my own actions i do not do what i want but i do the very thing i hate now if i do what i do not want i agree with the law that it is good so now it is no longer i who do it but sin that dwells in me paul makes a distinguish between sin and himself this is a simple point paul says sin and me sin and myself he says it's no longer i who do it but sin that dwells within me for i know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh and we need to make that distinction again he's talking about a specific thing he says nothing good dwells in me that is within my flesh for i know excuse me for i have the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out for i do not do the good i want but the evil i do not want is what i keep on doing so paul is defining here what the issue is between the flesh and himself or excuse me the flesh and the spirit he's saying i want i have a desire to do certain things but my flesh also wants certain things there's a distinction there's a there is a difference between me and the sin that dwells in my flesh so i find it to be a law that when i want to do right evil lies close at hand for i delight in the law of god and my inner being but i see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members so he says i have this i have this desire i have this law that's in my flesh and i can see it and i can distinguish it and it's different than what i want in my mind and in my spirit i can see the distinction and i can make a distinction and then he boasts or belches out in verse 24 wretched man that i am again present tense wretched man that i am who will deliver me from this body of death thanks be to god through jesus christ our lord so then i myself serve the law of god with my mind but with my flesh i serve the law of sin which would seem as if we are ending on a defeated note we're done we can't do it and we're dead because we're serving this law of sin but chapter markers don't end the story chapter markers continue chapter 8 verse 1 there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus why would paul even need to say that well because as christians we continue to fight this battle and so he reminds us there is no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus for the law of the spirit of life has set you free in christ jesus from the law of sin and death for god has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do by sending his son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin he condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit and the idea now is the empowerment that we have chapter 8 is all about our spiritual empowerment that comes to us in christ we see this as it goes on it says for those who live according to the flesh that their minds on the things of the flesh but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit for to set the mind on the flesh is death but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to god it does not submit to god's law indeed it cannot but the mind in romans 7 indeed has submitted to the law of god it loves the law of god it says in the very passage we just read it says that i delight in the law of god but the mind verse 7 of chapter 8 says of the flesh is hostile to god it does not submit to god's law indeed it cannot those who are in the flesh cannot please god you however are not in the flesh but in the spirit if in fact the spirit of god dwells in you anyone who does not have the spirit of christ does not belong to him but if christ is in you this is the this is where it all comes to a point if christ is in you although the body is dead because of sin see that's what he's talking about in romans 7 the body is dead because of sin the spirit is life because of righteousness and if the spirit of him who raised jesus from the dead dwells in you he who raised christ jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you now i'm going to stop at verse 11 because we don't have time to read through the rest but the idea paul is saying is it's not defeat but it is a battle it's not absolute that we cannot but it is that we will struggle and the christian life in fact will be a battle so where do i come to my conclusions what what are some of the things that leaves lead me to the conclusions that i'm i'm making number one and i've mentioned this a few times paul does use the present tense beginning at verse 14 and continues the present tense through chapter 8 where he says there is now no condemnation and um i realize that there will be some uh in the in the second presentation there will be a discussion of tense so i don't want to make this a linguistic argument but there it cannot be denied that it is in the present tense it's just how do we understand where that present is being discussed but we would both agree that the verbs that are used are present tense verbs number two paul distinguishes between two different things he distinguishes between the flesh and the mind and he distinguishes between the inner man and the outer man the inner man he describes in verses 14 to 25 is the inner man who desires to do god's will who desires to do god's law who delights in the law of god in his inner being verse 22 this is the man on the inside but paul also describes the man on the outside the man on the outside is the man who is in a fleshly body that is still dealing with the curse of sin and the curse of sin particularly deals with our flesh and we know this because one of the things that our flesh does is our flesh decays over time and eventually dies why does your flesh decay why does your flesh die even though you've been born again in christ even though you are a new creation in christ because the flesh is not yet redeemed so the flesh is not yet redeemed and therefore when we see the distinction between the flesh and the mind between the inner and the outer man paul is making that distinction number three these are my again my points my five points are i'm a calvinist uh one present tense verbs two paul distinguishes between the inner and outer man or the flesh and the spirit number three if paul is referring to himself in the past this seems to be inconsistent with other places that he has spoken about himself in the past and this is where we're going to begin in our you know in our study we've talked about not only looking at the passage but also cross -referencing and looking at other passages paul has defined himself in other places describing himself not as a man who struggled with sin but as a man who saw himself as righteous if you look at paul's description of himself uh in philippians chapter three he defines himself as one who had confidence in his flesh before he was a believer he says if anyone thinks that he has a reason to have confidence in the flesh i the more i was circumcised on the eighth day of the people of israel of the tribe of benjamin a hebrew of hebrews as the law of pharisee as the zeal persecutor of the church and as to righteousness under the law blameless paul saw himself prior to the cross as blameless and i think that has to be at least considered also in acts 22 when he's defining himself again he says i'm a jew born of cilicia brought up in this city educated at the feet of gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law the father's being zealous for god as all of you are to this day he saw himself as righteous so my third point is i don't think that roman 7 is consistent with paul's description of himself in other passages point number four i believe that paul's description in roman 7 14 to 25 is consistent with his description of himself as a believer and i'll give you two examples first timothy chapter 1 verse 15 paul says the saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that christ jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom i am chief paul defines himself even as a believer as one who was the chief of sinners also in first corinthians 9 27 paul says this and i really want you to consider this as you're considering what both of us have to say is in first corinthians 9 27 paul says i discipline my body and keep it under subjection lest having preached to others i myself may be a castaway now i don't have time tonight or the inclination or desire to argue over what he means by being a castaway or being disqualified or however you translate that word but the key here is paul says i'm still struggling in the flesh and i have to buff it that's the king james i like the term buffet yeah i have to i have to beat my body into subjection why because i'm still dealing with a body of flesh i'm still dealing with a body of that that's subject to decay and all of these things and i'm out of time so let me just close with my final point i do not believe this passage presents defeat i believe it it describes what a mature christian looking back at his life would define his life as it would define his life as a life that has battled between the flesh and the spirit and the passage i would point you to is and to compare to this is in galatians chapter 5 when paul in speaking to the galatians certainly about believers and in their believing state he says this walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh for the desires of the flesh are against the spirit and the desires of the spirit are against the flesh for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do almost the same language paul uses there to describe the believer and i believe again he is describing a believer in romans chapter 5 so i will end there and i will sure have time to talk later brother i'm gonna leave this recording i have a backup recorder here just in case so just so you know and brother mike it is your turn well i am glad that he did all of the background work because then i can get to my point um and i me and him do not disagree on uh being when a person is a believer being freed from sin even you go back to chapter six um about we agree you we do not present ourselves or our instruments our hands and our feet as instruments of righteousness why because we have been set free from sin we are no longer in bondage we are freed from sin therefore now that we're freed for that from that we are now free to serve god and that is clearly what keith read and as he read down into uh chapter 6 verse 17 thanks be to god though you were slaves to sin you have become obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed and having been freed from sin you are now slaves to righteousness we'll even take the words of jesus whom you serve you are a slave to it a person does not have the ability to say no to sin apart from the indwelling power of the spirit then he goes then he goes on and i don't think keith did this intentionally he goes on and he he talks about uh our members of our righteousness resulting in our sanctification he then jumped from there down to 22 and he said but now having been freed from sin and being enslaved to god and we say thank you but we can't overlook verse 20 verse 20 says this for when you were a slave to sin what could you do you could not do righteousness you could not do righteousness now we see paul right here in chapter seven saying clearly he wants to do good but he has inability inability to obey the law of god is not consistent with a believer ability to obey this would be non -believer non -believer does not have the ability even if we go back to chapter eight of romans eight verse seven which he did read he said because this mind the because of the mind set on the flesh is hostile towards god and we think of mindset on the flesh we're not just talking about a person that is a converted person that is struggling with sin this here specifically talking about a person that's unconverted and here's how you can tell why he says because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward god is a believer hostile towards god no he's not he's not hostile towards god but then he goes on to say for it does not subject itself to the law of god for he is not able once again we see this in chapter six we see this inability again in chapter eight and we'll just put here verse seven inability now as i make my position of who has been this being paul in his unconverted state i need to let you be be clear that paul from my understanding of this text is looking retrospectively back at his life this is my condition as an unbeliever i would ask everybody in this room when they came to christ the day that you got saved or the week after if you were asked to say how christ changed your life or what how did you understand salvation coming to you i would assure you it would be vastly different then than it would have been 10 years down the road how many of us how many of you thought that you were at war with god the day you got saved not many people do but you know what we are at war with god we are enemies of god we are actually we would kill god if we could therefore we do not have the ability to obey the law of god the obeying the law of god is doing what he required paul clearly says that in this text but paul is looking back at himself as a pharisee as looking back as one who was zealous in the law and i agree with philippians when he he talks about giving his pedigree and him being his zeal for the word and being uh circumcised on the eighth day that all was proving that from paul's perspective he had done everything that the law had required and we'll get into this in just a second that also has to do with the tense in which way so his when keith was speaking the verb tense no doubt you go through uh chapter six it's in what's called the present heiress meaning it has he's speaking in present as something that already previously happened in the greek okay that's called we just took it it's in the past tense we we all agree with that me and keith even agree that he's in he's speaking in the past tense he speaks in the past tense up until uh chapter 7 verse 13 or 14 where he then begins to speak in the present i agree with keith paul is speaking in the present tense but he's free he's speaking in the present tense in a rhetorical vice called the historical present i want you to know each and every one of in this room we speak that way if i was to speak of my former life and i was going to tell you about what i was doing and uh in my former life before christ saved me i would be telling you of an event and i would say here i am sitting in the car stealing busting the train the busting the ignition to steal the car did you understand what i'm saying i'm speaking to you in the present am i actually doing it no but i'm speaking of it as a rhetorical as if it's happening right now we have all done this this way too you've been at a football game and you're like or at a baseball game and you're saying hey here it is i'm sitting here and the ball is coming right at me that's the historical present you're not at the game anymore but you're speaking as if you are that's how i see paul talking see paul talking in the historical present the problem with this and keith will if i misrepresent certainly the problem with this is it's all it's the 99 .9