WWUTT 1200 Q&A Witch of Endor, Asking God's Forgiveness, Believing Conspiracy Theories?

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If we cannot communicate with the dead, then how was Saul able to talk to the spirit of Samuel?

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Should we still ask forgiveness for our sins? And should Christians listen to conspiracy theories? The answers to these questions, when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

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Tell your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is

00:39

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Happy May Day! May Day! It's May Day!

00:45

Yay! And according to our RefTunes calendar, Uh -huh. Thank you very much to RefTunes for our wonderful calendar that hangs over our recording space.

00:56

Yes. It is also Loyalty Day. I wonder what that means. What is that? He puts the holidays on there that you need to know.

01:07

Mother's Day, May 10th. Armed Forces Day, May 16th. That's significant for us in a military town.

01:13

Memorial Day. Memorial Day on May 25th. What is Loyalty Day? I've never even heard of that.

01:18

Nope. Is it typically May 1st or is it the first Friday in May? I don't know.

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I haven't heard of it before. All right. We'll have to do some research. There you go. A research project for everybody.

01:30

Figure out what Loyalty Day is. Well, the calendar says it's

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May Day, but it feels like it's March 56th or whatever. Yeah.

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No joke. Whatever day we're on. Your state has probably already enacted a plan for reopening unless you live in California.

01:48

I'm afraid that you... Or Colorado. Yeah. Or Michigan. Yeah. There's a few of them. I think is one.

01:53

No, maybe not Utah. But there's some of those Western states that have Democrat governors and it sounds like you guys are going to stay imprisoned in your homes for the rest of your life.

02:03

Oh, that's terrible. Quit. I'm sorry about that. Sorry to hear that. But we'll keep the podcast going for you.

02:09

Yeah. Keep you company. So you can still get some good Bible teaching. On last week's episode... I love this coffee.

02:16

Thanks. Thanks for getting me some. On last week's episode, we talked about how I don't drink

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Dr. Pepper while we're doing this. And now you are. Here, I have a Dr. Pepper right here. Thanks for that.

02:28

All right. So let's get... Oh, my goodness. Let's get straight to the emails because the first few of these actually have to do with things we talked about last week.

02:36

Awesome. This one is from Brian. And in fact, Brian sent us a couple of emails here having to do with what we talked about.

02:44

Greetings, Pastor Gabe and Becky. First off, when you were talking about your friend who counted how many times

02:49

Becky yawned... Oh, my goodness. In a Friday Q &A... So many times. It made me yawn as I was listening on the drive to work.

02:59

Oh, I'm so sorry. No more yawning. No more. No more. I tried to yawn to get you to yawn.

03:06

Yeah, and it didn't work. And it didn't work. But apparently, Brian was affected. He says, yes, I'm still going into the office since I manage

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IT systems, but my office is isolated from the rest of the people in the building. Second, in your answer to the person who asked why

03:19

Paul has the title slash office of apostle put with his name so often in conversation and writing, you said that Paul wrote more of the

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New Testament than any other offer. Sorry, any other author. And that the

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Apostle John was second. That's only true if you're counting the number of books, which that was...

03:40

Yes. That was the direction that I was taking with it. But Brian says, if we go by the number of words in the original

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Greek, Luke wrote 37 ,932. Paul wrote 32 ,408 words.

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Even if you consider Hebrews to be Pauline, that only brings it up to 37 ,361.

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Still over 500 words less than Luke's writings. Interesting. John has 28 ,091 words.

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Assuming the gospel, the three epistles and the apocalypse are all by John, the son of Zebedee, which

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I would say that they are. John was a common name. And as you are probably aware, there's a debate even among conservative evangelical scholars as to whether they all had the same author as church tradition has held.

04:29

As someone who devotes a lot of time to biblical studies, especially in Luke and Acts, I want to make sure

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Luke gets the credit he deserves. As the writer who actually penned more of the

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New Testament than any other writer. Brian, North Little Rock, Arkansas. Brian, I sure appreciate it.

04:48

Yeah. I like those stats because I'm a word count guy. Yeah, you are. I don't...

04:53

You don't say how many pages. You're like, I wrote this many words. Yeah. I wrote this many words today.

04:58

It's about this many words. Right. And I'm like, oh, that sounds like a lot. No, not really. Okay. My average sermon length is about 4 ,500 to 5 ,000 words.

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If I'm hitting 5 ,500 to 6 ,000 words, I'm going, I'm about an hour. So, I know where my word count has to be.

05:18

I was talking with Nate Pickowitz. You just talk a little faster. Yeah. If I pick up the pace a little bit,

05:23

I can make it. But then you lose people. I was talking with Nate Pickowitz about that one time. And I said, how many words do

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I have to write to have a 45 -minute sermon? And he said 7 ,000. I was thinking, no way.

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I'd be way over 45 minutes if I did 7 ,000 words. So, it does have to do with pacing.

05:43

I guess he talks faster than I thought he did. But, yeah. So, that worked for him.

05:48

And he knows because he manuscripts his sermons. So, he knows how long his sermon is supposed to be. But I couldn't do 7 ,000.

05:55

As fast as you... I mean, do you like rabbit trail much or do you just keep to script or how does that work?

06:00

I deviate from the script a little bit. Yeah. So, I'm thinking maybe because you do that, that maybe it is 7 ,000 words.

06:07

No, no, no, no. It's not that much. I'm not leaving the script that much to add another 2 ,500 words.

06:14

No. I don't know. I don't think so. Yeah. That's almost like a third more sermon that I'm adding outside the manuscript.

06:21

Yeah, I don't know. Now, I'm not your typical manuscripter. I typically don't have any notes in front of me at all.

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The only notes that I have are the quotes that I'm using. And if I have a lot of cross references that I can't just pull off the top of my head, then

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I'll have them on a sheet of paper in front of me. But I typically don't manuscript my sermons. I only started doing this because I found out that it's more beneficial for people who have been following the sermons online, whether by video or listening to them, that they're easier to keep up with doing this on a computer and making notes if they have the manuscript in front of them.

07:01

Right. And catching all of those references. Yeah. And that being the other thing. Yeah. So I started manuscripting the sermons, and they're on my blog now.

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And I'm uploading them on Saturday night. So before you even hear me preach it on Sunday, the manuscript has already been uploaded to my blog on Saturday evening.

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So if you go to PastorGabe .com, you'll find the manuscripts now for the sermon that I'm preaching on Sunday morning.

07:27

I don't know if I'll still keep doing that, but it's... For now. Yeah. And it does help me with the recording, too.

07:34

Yeah. Because I'm recording the sermon on Saturday night. And to make it as consistent as it can be with what

07:41

I'm preaching Saturday night and then on Sunday morning, it's easier if I have a manuscript. Right. Because otherwise...

07:48

I get that. Yeah. There are some... There was one Sunday in particular, about a third of the sermon was different.

07:53

Yeah. What I preached on Sunday morning was quite a bit different than what I did on Saturday night.

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It was like Sermon 2 .0. Yeah. Sermon 2 .0. 2 .0.

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There we go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back when we had the two services, and we had the traditional service first and then the contemporary service second,

08:14

I liked that because I felt like I'm finding my groove in the first service.

08:21

Yeah. And then it comes out way better in the second service. Right. I think the first service folks were feeling gypped in that one.

08:29

Nah. But no. But now we're just... Yeah. Now we're just at one service and... You ended on time.

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So, that's all that counts. That's true. I'm just teasing. As long as I started and ended on time. So, Brian has a second email here.

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And this having to do with something we talked about right at the very end of last week's episode. He said,

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Right. Remember talking about this?

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So, Zondervan is publishing the Quran, but it has commentary to it.

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Christian commentary. Christian commentary. Right. So, it's... But they're still producing the

09:09

Quran or publishing. Right. So, our criticism of that was, this is still a publication of the Quran. Right.

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But I also made the comment that they were probably doing this as a textbook. So, they were thinking of it from a textbook standpoint.

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And so, Brian goes on to say, Again, it is not being published as a typical

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Quran would be. I have friends who have served as missionaries in Muslim -majority countries. Some still serving overseas.

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Some working stateside. The Quran as a holy book is almost always bound with a green cover.

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As green is the color of heaven in Islam. Christian Bibles in Arabic are often bound with green covers as well.

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Making them easier to give to a Muslim friend whom one is trying to evangelize.

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As you can see from the cover image. And then he gives a link to that. This will not be mistaken for a Quran that would be used by a

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Muslim for devotional purposes. From the author bio at the link above. Gordon Nickel, PhD, University of Calgary.

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Is director of the Center for Islamic Studies at South Asia Institute of Advanced Christian Studies in Bangalore, India.

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A former instructor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and the University of British Columbia.

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He has written several books including A Gentle Answer to the Muslim Accusation of Biblical Falsification.

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So the primary author is a seminary professor training Christian ministers in India on how to evangelize

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Muslims. Of which India has a significant number. Not to mention neighboring countries. Veteran missionaries to Muslims suggest that Christians trying to evangelize

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Muslim individuals. Whether overseas or here in America should read the Quran before asking a

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Muslim to read the Bible. That way in discussions and debates they can honestly say I've read your holy book.

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Will you read mine? Not simply read books about the Quran and how it differs from Christian teaching.

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But read the text itself. So for someone who is going to do that. I see this new book as a great way to read the

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Quran's text and get the Christian analysis slash commentary in one package. Rather than buying a

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Quran English translation that may come from a Islamic group. With those funds then supporting them.

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One of my missionary friends who teaches on outreach to Muslims said he hasn't received a copy yet.

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But is looking forward to checking it out. I look forward to reading his review of it. Again this is being put forth as an academic resource.

11:54

And isn't going to end up on the general reading shelf at Mardell. Can't say Lifeway anymore since they closed all retail stores.

12:01

We have a Mardell's in Wichita. Yes we do. Thank you once again Brian for your email and for that clarification.

12:07

Now as I continue to read about it even after we did our segment on it last week.

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I was intrigued on it. Are you? Yeah I would be interested in picking one up myself. When I did my book.

12:20

For research purposes? Yeah exactly. Okay. For research purposes. And I was always hesitant to pick up a book of Mormon.

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Because I did not want to give money to Mormonism. Right. I happened to take my kids to the park one time.

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And I sat down under a tree while they were playing on the playground. I looked down next to me on the ground.

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And there was a book of Mormon. I was like whoa. Hey and it was in perfect condition. So whoever left it there had just left it there.

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Aww. They had just been there and left it on the ground. And so I picked it up and held on to it.

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And I thought maybe if somebody forgot their book. And they were going to come back and look for it. They might come and ask for it.

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And I'll engage in conversation. So why are you reading this? What's with this book?

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But nobody ever showed up again. So I kept the book. And it was the book of Mormon that I read.

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When doing my research for 40 Mormon beliefs and what the Bible says. So I read not only the book of Mormon.

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I also read the Pearl of Great Price. The book of Mormon was the hardest read of the three

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Mormon canon books. Yeah. Boy that is a terribly written book. But it was

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Joseph Smith's first. And he got better at writing later on. So yeah the book of Mormon.

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Pearl of Great Price. And Doctrine and Covenants. So I had to read those three when I did my book on 40

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Mormon beliefs and what the Bible says. So to tell a missionary to Muslim people that they have to read the

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Koran and be familiar with it. Yeah I totally understand that. And I could be more gracious in my criticism of the publication of the

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Koran by Zondervan. Which I made last week. I would be interested in this also.

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I have never read the whole Koran. The book that I recommended was What Every Christian Needs to Know About the

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Koran by James White. Which was that was the recommendation that we made last week. So I'd be interested in reading this and seeing the commentary notes.

14:21

So you see the benefit of having them publish the Koran. Right. With the commentary. I do.

14:26

Okay. And you think about that coming from Zondervan. And not coming from a

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Muslim publisher. And them getting the credit and therefore the royalties from it.

14:37

Right. And supporting Muslim causes. So in other words you're backtracking your opinion from last week.

14:43

I'm softening on it. Softening. Yes. That's a good word. So anyway.

14:50

Thank you for both of those emails Brian. And for your perspective on that. I appreciate your take. This next one comes from Anthony.

14:59

Good morning. My wife and I are frequent listeners and have been blessed by your commitment to God's word day after day.

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Especially in an age where the authority of the Bible is trampled on.

15:11

I am listening to your Q &A episode on 424. That was last week. All right. And heard you talking about Wisconsin.

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That's where we're from. Oh. Just to set the record straight. We in Wisconsin actually call ourselves

15:25

Wisconsinites. Oh. Wisconsinites. Because I was saying what? Wisconsinians.

15:30

Something weird. I am currently trying to read through the entire

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Old Testament. And I'm into 2 Samuel. Near the end of 1

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Samuel. In chapter 28, Saul seeks the services of a medium to speak with Samuel after he had died.

15:50

I'm just curious as to your thoughts on this section of scripture. Why would God allow

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Samuel to be summoned and speak after his death? I also can see that this desperation by Saul is just a testament to his increasing depravity after God abandoned him for his disobedience.

16:11

Appreciate any insight that you can offer. Thanks so much, Anthony. All right. Let's go to 1

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Samuel chapter 28. And we'll read about the witch of Endor. Not to be confused with the moon of Endor on which

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Ewoks live. Oh my. It's the same.

16:29

It's Endor. It sounded familiar. But then when you said it, I was like, okay.

16:37

Yeah, I think we've got May the 4th be with you coming up. Yep, we do. How long is it going to be before that becomes a calendar day?

16:47

I thought it was. When is that going to start being written on calendars? Yeah, I thought it was. Well, not the

16:53

Reftunes calendar. Well, obviously not. I don't think that's important for them.

16:59

I'm not advocating it for it being a holiday. I mean, they don't even put the moon cycle. The phases of the moon?

17:04

The phases of the moon, yeah. Yeah, where's our full moon? It's just not that kind of calendar. Yeah, no.

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So I don't foresee them putting that on there ever. Okay, let's hop our

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Imperial shuttle to Endor. 1 Samuel chapter 28, starting in verse 1.

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In those days, the Philistines gathered their forces. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

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Okay, enough. For war. To fight against Israel.

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And Achish said to David, Understand that you and your men are to go out with me in the army.

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Now remember, David is not king here. Saul is still the king. David said to Achish, Very well, you shall know what your servant can do.

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And Achish said to David, Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life. Now Samuel had died,

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And all Israel had mourned him and buried him in Ramah, his own city.

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And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. Now this is all kind of recapping,

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Because we had already known about Samuel's passing earlier in 1

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Samuel. Verse 4, The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem.

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And Saul gathered all Israel and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the

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Philistines, he was afraid, And his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the

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Lord, And the Lord did not answer him, Either by dreams or by Urim or the prophets,

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Then Saul said to his servants, Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, That I may go to her and inquire of her.

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And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a medium at the moon of Endor. So they had to travel up to Endor.

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Okay, sorry. Verse 8, So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went,

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He and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, Divine for me, buy a spirit,

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And bring up for me whomever I shall name to you. The woman said to him,

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Surely you know what Saul has done, How he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land.

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Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?

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But Saul swore to her by the Lord, As the Lord lives, No punishment shall come upon you for this thing.

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Now punishment from Saul's hand would not come upon her, But punishment from the

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Lord certainly would. Yeah, definitely. As it says in the book of Deuteronomy, Anybody who practices divination, mediums, necromancers,

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They shall be put to death. Right. So Saul had already driven them all out of the land. He does a little bit of research,

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Has his men spy out. They find a woman that he can go to, So he can conjure up the spirit of Samuel.

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And that's what he wants to do here. So in verse 11, The woman said, Whom shall I bring up for you?

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And he said, Bring up Samuel for me. When the woman saw Samuel, She cried out with a loud voice.

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And the woman said to Saul, Why have you deceived me? You are Saul. The king said to her,

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Do not be afraid. What do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a God coming up out of the earth,

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Lowercase g. He said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up,

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And he is wrapped in a robe. And Saul knew that it was Samuel, And he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

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All right, let's stop there for a moment. So there are a lot of different views on this particular story.

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And some will even say that this is not the spirit of Samuel that has come up.

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Okay. Because God would simply never allow something like this to happen. This is contrary to what the law says.

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There shall not be mediums or necromancers communicating with the dead. They never actually communicate with the dead anyway.

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People don't have dead spirits that are wandering around on the earth. Okay. That witches and whatnot can communicate with.

21:15

Okay. So, you know, you have seances today. Right. When somebody will have a seance and they'll say,

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I'm hearing from your uncle. Yeah. He has a beard. Something. Yeah.

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Apparently spirits do walk around with beards. But, you know, they'll say something like that.

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But there are not disembodied spirits that are wandering around on the earth. So, whenever a medium or a necromancer would communicate with the spirit world, there was something demonic that they were communicating with.

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But you would have this, like, little spirit that might appear and kind of dance around. And this is all demonic influence.

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It's not somebody's disembodied spirit. It's a demon that this person is communicating with and Satan using these things to fool and lead people astray.

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Right. So, the witch is terrified when she conjures up Samuel because she's not expecting to actually see a person.

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She's expecting to see that little spirit thing dance around, which she can then say whatever she wants to say that it's communicating.

22:22

Right. Manipulate the situation. Right. Exactly. She has never actually had a conversation with some dead spirit before, especially one that you can actually make out and tell who it is.

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And here she's even described who this person is that has come up from the ground. So, there are some that are saying that, see, this whole thing that's taking place, this is not actually

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Samuel. This is the woman that's playing a trick on Saul. But God… But she cried out.

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She was terrified of what it was that she saw. Yeah. She was not expecting that. Right.

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And the Lord in his providence is using Samuel to communicate something to Saul.

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We have had before an appearance of those who have died to those who are still living on earth.

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When you think of the transfiguration, when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John, they saw not only the transfiguration of Christ, but they saw with him

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Elijah and Moses. Right. And apparently they recognized them. Right.

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So, whatever this may have looked like to them, it's not like they had Facebook or a yearbook of great prophets from the past.

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No joke. There's what Moses looked like. There's what Elijah looked like. But they recognized them when they saw them.

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And Peter even making the suggestion, hey, let's build some tabernacles here. And we'll have one for Elijah and one for Moses and one for you.

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Anyway, so there have been appearances of those who have passed on. Right.

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In other places in the Bible. So, this is not unique in that sense. It's certainly unusual, but it's just not the only place in the

24:04

Bible in which we see such a thing happen, where one who has died makes an appearance. God is using this to communicate something to Saul.

24:12

Right. The witch did not actually expect to conjure up Samuel. Right. But she did it, and the

24:18

Lord allowed it. Right. Because of what's now going to be prophesied to Saul through this appearance.

24:23

Can I also say that the Bible does not give a specific and expect you to think, oh, that's not really right.

24:34

Right. I mean, the Bible is inerrant. Yes. Why would we be reading that? There's nothing in the language here that would lead us to believe that these events aren't actually happening.

24:44

Right. Yeah. So, it's just kind of interesting that people put a spin on stuff that is not supposed to have a spin on it and take literal what is supposed to be figurative.

24:56

I don't understand why people do that. Or try to read a tone into this that it doesn't have. You know, the writer is not trying to write satire here.

25:04

Right. This is a narrative. It's explaining exactly what happened when Saul went to the witch of Endor.

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Right. And the spirit of Samuel comes up, plus what Samuel tells Saul is going to happen is actually what happens.

25:20

Right. Satan wouldn't have done that. Nope. So, the Lord does do this for Saul to bring about his judgment.

25:28

As he is doing evil here in the sight of God, God's presence has already left him, which is why

25:34

Saul is attempting to communicate with Samuel in the first place. So, instead of going to God, instead of being repentant over his sin, instead of mourning over the fact that I have disobeyed

25:45

God. You'd think that would be easier. Right. Instead, he goes and tries to find a necromancer.

25:51

He does evil. He does even more evil in the sight of God. Keeping it on. By going and finding one that God has said we are not to communicate with.

26:00

This is an abomination before the Lord, what Saul is doing here. And totally hypocritical on top of that, given that he had driven all the mediums out of the land.

26:09

And then one day he goes, you know, I really need a medium. I really need that one. That would help me out in knowing, hey, am

26:15

I going to be successful in the battle here? So, verse 15, So, I'm going to go talk to the one prophet who would talk to me.

26:39

Oh, my. And Samuel said,

27:32

Now, we've had another question about this in the past. This is not Samuel saying to Saul, you're going to come to heaven with me.

27:39

Right. Means you're going to be dead with me. Yeah. You're going to go down to the grave just as I am in the grave.

27:45

That's right. Because he, I mean, he did come out of the ground. So, you know, you're going to be with me.

27:52

Right. That's where his spirit came up from. Yeah. Behold, your servant has obeyed you.

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I have taken my life in my hand and have listened to what you have said to me. Now, therefore, you also obey your servant.

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Let me set a morsel of bread before you and eat that you may have strength when you go on your way.

28:29

He refused and said, I will not eat. But his servants together with the woman urged him and he listened to their words.

28:35

So he arose from the earth and sat on the bed. Now, the woman had a fattened calf in the house and she quickly killed it and she took flour and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it.

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And she put it before Saul and his servants and they ate. Then they rose and they went away that night.

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Now, that's a pretty big deal for her to kill an animal that she had been raising in her house for food.

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But it just kind of demonstrated how much she feared for her life. If Saul dies here.

29:04

Yes. Then I'm going to get found out. Right. So she makes some food for him and the servants encourage him to eat so he can get up and get out of there.

29:13

But all of this is the judgment of God that is going to come upon Saul. And exactly what was prophesied to him is what happened.

29:20

He goes out to the battle. He dies, including Jonathan, even though Jonathan was one who feared the

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Lord. Yet his following his father would lead to his death.

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And so they died at the hands of the Philistines. The Lord used this situation with Samuel to communicate this judgment upon Saul and to bring this judgment, to heap the judgment upon Saul.

29:47

So, again, it's not that you can conjure up spirits. But since Saul continued to deal wickedly, then the

29:56

Lord used this situation to bring about judgment upon Saul. We should not ever be of the mindset that we can do what

30:03

Saul did here. Saul did not have the Spirit of God with him. I was going to say he was being not so obedient.

30:11

I was really thinking right there you were about to say he was being naughty. I was about to. Because that's what she'll say with the kids.

30:21

All the time. He was being naughty. He was being naughty. Our little kids. Yep. They're trying to understand sin.

30:28

Well, sin is being naughty. Yeah. It is. Anyway.

30:35

So for the littles out there. That's right. For the little ears that are listening, Saul was being naughty.

30:41

I was trying to make sure I got to the end of this all right. So that question was from Anthony. Saul seeks out the services of a medium to speak with Samuel after he had died.

30:51

I'm just curious as to your thoughts on this section of Scripture. Why would God allow Samuel to be summoned and speak after his death?

30:57

Well, there you go. To bring judgment upon Saul. Yep. That would be the reason. So God works in mysterious ways.

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And he will bring things about according to his will. And in this particular case, it was

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Saul's emptiness of heart that led to him seeking out a medium which God had told him not to do.

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And he just continues to send further and further. This demonstrates there's just no repentance in Saul's heart.

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Right. Definitely. Because he could have gone before the Lord and repented. And even in those moments, simply refused to do that.

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So he's trying to find a workaround. Yeah. That's what, yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

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Because, I mean, he's asking for God's response. And if God doesn't respond in that way that he had before, then he's like, well,

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I got to go search it out. I'll do this my way. Yeah. Yep. I've got this.

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I did it my way. Who was that? Frank Sinatra? I did it my way. Never mind.

31:57

We're going to go on. Brother Gabe and Becky. This is from Craig in Wolferth, Texas.

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Am I saying that right? Let's see. Wolferth, Texas. Yes. Brother Gabe and Becky, I greatly appreciate your ministry and the encouragement it has given me over the last three to four years.

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Oh, that's awesome. I thank God for your commitment to sound exegesis of his word and your unwavering commitment to truth.

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I grew up in a Southern Baptist -esque denomination that was heavy on the law and light on grace.

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I discovered reform slash Calvinistic theology about six years ago through faithful preachers such as John MacArthur, Paul Washer, that shocking youth sermon, oof.

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Oh. R .C. Sproul, Steve Lawson, Todd Friel, and you.

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Aww. I don't deserve to be mentioned in that company, but I do appreciate it. We left our old

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Southern Baptist church about four years ago due to the arrival of teachings from Todd White and some word of faith influences.

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Thankfully, we found a reformed Baptist church nearby and have loved it ever since we first attended. Todd White, in case some of you don't know, if you've seen the faces and pictures of those different prosperity preachers and the health and wealth and the faith healers and those guys,

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Todd White's the one with the massive dreadlocks. Mm -hmm. Unmistakable if you've seen him because he's really the only one.

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I'm so confused. If they were heavy on law, where on earth does he come in? Well, there's no grace in that because it's all about you do this and God will give you this.

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Oh, true. So that's law. Okay, true. If you're living this way, then God will bless you this way. Okay, okay. If you didn't get your healing, it's because you didn't do enough of this.

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Okay, that makes sense. If you give more money, God will give you a blessing. I could not understand the connection, but that totally makes sense.

33:53

Right. Okay, keep going. Now, it may not be law as you would find law in God's law, but it is.

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Yeah, that's where I was thinking. Right. It is a matter of them heaping a law upon you in order to merit

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God's favor. So you have to do this before God is going to give you anything. So then going on, this brings me to my question.

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Growing up in my church experience, the men would usually end their prayers with, and forgive us our sins.

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Being an impressionable young person, I picked up the habit early on in life. In our new reformed church, when praying,

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I would unwittingly say this in my prayers during services. One of our elders brought this to my attention one day at lunch, asking if I thought we needed to continue to ask for forgiveness if we are truly saved since I pray that little line.

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I have never really thought about it. Obviously, Christ's atoning death on the cross was sufficient to cover all my sins, past, present, and future.

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But I do know in the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, 12, Jesus says, and forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors.

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In our discussion, he said he did not believe those words applied post -cross, as we do not see that phrasing in any of the prayers in the epistles in the

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New Testament. I am not sure I agree with that, but I understand his point. I do not pray that anyone wanting to submit to the—

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That's anymore. Oh, I'm sorry. I do not pray that anymore wanting to submit to the leadership of my elders, but I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

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I've done some study on it, but get conflicting views. Is it wrong to ask forgiveness from God after we have been saved?

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Again, thank you for your ministry, and may God bless you and your family. All glory to him,

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Craig. Craig, it would be wrong to ask God forgiveness for your sins if you do not sin.

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Since you became a Christian, have you never done wrong? You have.

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I'm keeping my mouth shut. Am I wording? I'm just making sure I'm wording this properly. You're wording it well. Yeah, keep going.

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Yes, you have sinned. Since you became a Christian, you have sinned. Are you not supposed to ask

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God's forgiveness for that? That would be a little high and mighty on yourself. The story of Saul that we were just looking at, were we not seeing that that was part of his problem?

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That he was not asking forgiveness for his sins? That he was trying to find other things that he could do?

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See, it's interesting that you've come into a church that is heavier on grace than it is on law, and yet they're telling you that you should not ask forgiveness for your sins.

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That sounds pretty legalistic to me. What are you restraining yourself from saying over there?

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Oh, my goodness. Just...

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I don't understand how your elders were getting from the Lord's Prayer that that is a pre -cross prayer.

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That we don't pray post -cross. What would be the point of Matthew even including that in Jesus' teaching, when

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Matthew is writing his gospel following the crucifixion of Christ? I mean, Jesus is constantly saying, you know, ask for forgiveness, right?

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Yes. First of all, let me answer point blank. Yes, you should ask forgiveness for your sins. And exactly because of what you've prayed in the

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Lord's Prayer. Jesus is teaching his disciples, and he says, when you pray, pray then like this.

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Right. Our Father who art in heaven. And the fact that Jesus was telling his disciples to address

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God in heaven as Father, that was incredible for him to be saying that to his disciples, because no one was praying like that.

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Right. No one was calling God Father. You don't see that anywhere in the Old Testament with the exception of like maybe one or two places.

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And there you have a reference to God as being like a Father, but it's not actually calling upon him as Father.

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We can call God Father because we've been adopted to be sons and daughters of God in Christ.

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That's why we can address him as Father. That's what makes that instruction so unique when Jesus said to his disciples, pray then like this.

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And don't children have to go to their parents and ask for forgiveness? Yes. Constantly.

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You teach your kids to apologize to those whom they've wronged and ask for forgiveness.

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It's the same concept with adults. You're right. Even when you've gotten older as an adult and you've done wrong to somebody else.

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Yes. You need to go ask their forgiveness. And when we sin, we are always sinning against God first.

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Amen to that. Right. Yeah. I'm baffled at that response.

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I don't understand it either. I would be curious to know what their ground is for that, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

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Well, it says that after Christ died on the cross for our sins, he got all of our sins forgiven or something.

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In our discussions, he said that he did not believe those words applied post -cross, as we do not see that phrasing in any of the prayers in the epistles in the

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New Testament. Okay, but Paul says in Colossians 3 .16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom.

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Admonishing means there's people doing stupid stuff and they need to be corrected on that. Right. But not like they're not saved stupid stuff.

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Right. Not like unbeliever stupid stuff. Right. That's what I mean. Yes. They are Christians and they're going astray.

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Right. So teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

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What are you going to be singing when you are singing spiritual psalms unto the

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Lord, as Paul is instructing the church to do here? One of those psalms you're going to end up singing is

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Psalm 51. Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy, blot out my transgressions.

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Wash me thoroughly from iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. Are we going to say that that only applies to David 3 ,000 years ago, but has no application to us?

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And the one that says, search me, O Lord. Is that the same one? For I know my transgressions and my sin is ever before me against you.

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And you only have I sinned, as you just said a moment ago, and done what is evil in your sight so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

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Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being.

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And you teach me wisdom in the secret place. Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean.

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Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness.

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Let the bones that you have broken rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquities.

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Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence and take not your

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Holy Spirit from me. So you're talking about David with whom the Holy Spirit was.

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Now, of course, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us as followers of Jesus Christ.

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But I don't think the proximity of the Holy Spirit is necessarily any different. When the

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Holy Spirit was outside of David, but with David, he should ask forgiveness for his sins.

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But if we are in the Spirit and the Spirit is within us, suddenly we shouldn't be asking forgiveness for our sins.

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Apparently, we don't sin anymore. I can't really understand the reasoning there.

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I mean, that just sounds so prideful. I want to be careful with how

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I'm approaching this because I don't want to tell you. I feel like there's something we're missing. Yeah. That just sounds weird.

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I don't want to tell you to rebel against your elders and against your pastor. I think that you should listen to them and you should follow their instruction.

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Did it come from the pastor or just the elder, though? I thought it was just the one elder. It depends on what kind of church they are.

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You can have a church that's elder -led in the sense that it really isn't a pastor. True, true. You just have elders that are leading the preaching and teaching.

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I think it should be an ongoing discussion at the very least. So for you, Craig, to say, is it wrong to ask forgiveness from God after we have been saved?

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No, of course it's not wrong. 1 John 1 .9, if we are faithful to ask forgiveness for our sins,

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God is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Right. Now, there are certainly those out there that take that verse to say, yeah, but you already did that.

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When you became a Christian, you asked forgiveness for your sins and God cleansed you of all unrighteousness. You were saved only once.

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Yeah, there's still that growing in holiness going on. Right, so you have to ask for forgiveness all the time.

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You are fully justified, but you are not yet completely sanctified.

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Right. So you're still, and especially when you become a Christian, you're... You know more sins of what you're doing then.

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Yeah, you're still trying to find your feet underneath you, basically. And remember that when Jesus had washed his disciples' feet, when

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Peter had refused, and then when Jesus said, if you don't let me wash you, you have no place with me.

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And then Peter goes, well, they washed the whole thing head to toe. Yeah. And he's still just getting overzealous here.

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And Jesus says to him, you don't need to be cleansed again, but only once, but not your feet.

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Your feet are still dirty. Right. Because your feet, as you're walking, spiritually as you're walking this pilgrim way, you're kicking up dust.

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You're getting dirty. And so Christ, in his work of sanctifying us, is washing our feet for us.

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So you're cleansed from head to toe. You were cleansed when you came to Christ, and that was symbolized by your baptism.

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But you're still kicking up dust with your feet that need to be cleansed by Christ. And that's that process of sanctification, which

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Jesus was even talking about there with his disciples when he washed their feet in the Gospel of John. So I don't understand being told that you shouldn't ask for forgiveness anymore.

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I lead our congregation in prayers in which we're asking for God's forgiveness.

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Yeah. And by the way, that's a typical Puritan thing to do.

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Puritan prayers were very repentant and seeking the forgiveness and the grace of God. And Puritan church services involving corporate prayer that was asking for God's forgiveness and his cleansing.

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So it's odd to be attending a reformed church in which that reformed body of teachers is telling you that you don't need to ask forgiveness for your sins and not to say that in your prayers.

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Yeah. I want to give the benefit of the doubt in all circumstances, because we only have a little bit of info.

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A little bit of info to come off of. So I'm just going to say that we're probably missing something.

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And if we're not, then you really need to have that discussion.

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Yeah. Sit down with them and talk with them about it further. Again, I would like to know.

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With your Bibles. Yes. Scripturally, where are they coming from in that? Other than the statement that post cross, we don't need to ask forgiveness for our sins.

45:36

You would really have to say post salvation, you don't have to ask forgiveness for your sins.

45:43

Right. Because you certainly have to ask forgiveness for your sins when you come to Christ. I just.

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I don't know. I'm at a loss. I'm not going to be that helpful without more information.

45:55

Yeah. Well, Craig, we'll pray for you in that, but encourage you to continue to have those conversations with your elders and get further biblical clarification.

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Because I don't understand the statement of you don't have to ask forgiveness for your sins. I have members in my church who sin.

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I have sinned. I've sinned against my kids. And I've had to humble myself before my children and say, your daddy was wrong in this matter.

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And I'm asking for your forgiveness in that. Yeah. And that's the way that we need to be with one another.

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Forgiving and asking for forgiveness. And I find myself relying on myself all day thinking,

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I can do this. I can do this. I can. I can do it on my own. Yeah. Yeah. And it's me, me, me, me, me all day long.

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And then I get to the end of the day and I'm like, oh, no, I had no control over this.

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The Lord is the one that grants me everything. I think it was a week or two ago.

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I can't remember when this was. But I was frustrated with something that wasn't going my way. And you asked me a question and I was short with you.

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Only it wasn't at you. It was at the thing that wasn't working for me. So, I had to go to my wife and apologize.

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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be short with you like that. I was taking out my frustrations on this thing on you.

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And I shouldn't have been doing that. And this instruction by your elders would basically mean that you shouldn't ask anybody's forgiveness for anything.

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If when we sin and do wrong, we're first sinning before God, then how is my confession to my wife not also supposed to be a confession to God that I had sinned against him?

47:36

Right. Okay. Let's do one last question here. This one is from Timothy. Gabe, I love listening to your podcast and your thoughts.

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I would like you to address the weird susceptibility of some Christians toward conspiracy theories.

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Can you give me your thoughts on this? Specifically, Flat Earth Theory, quoting random out -of -context verses, and cultural ones like QAnon, more of a cultural

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Christian movement. Do you consider this a part of the postmodern movement in trying to dismantle any notion of certainty that came from modernity or is some other force at play?

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So basically, the postmodern idea that truth is relative, so is an idea of relative truth somehow then playing into our gullibility and susceptibility in believing in conspiracy theories?

48:26

I don't know. I don't know if postmodernism has anything to do with that or not. I just think people can be really gullible sometimes.

48:33

Yeah. And there's actually an instruction for us to be temperate in our thinking, which means we should not allow ourselves to be governed by wild and crazy thoughts.

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Right. You've heard me quote to you before the instruction that God gave through Isaiah in Isaiah 8, 12,

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You can let these uncertain things that you don't know anything about just totally plague your thinking and dominate your thoughts, and you're no longer submitting your mind to Christ or being dominated in your thinking by Christ.

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Right. And having peace in your heart through Christ. But you're just thinking of all these wild, fantastic things.

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Like UFOs were big this past week because of the release of, oh,

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I can't remember if it was the Air Force or another branch of the armed services, but they had released video footage of UFOs that had been encountered.

49:39

Oh, okay. And of course, they're UFOs. I believe in UFOs. They're unidentified flying objects. Right. You can't tell what they are.

49:46

That is the definition of a UFO. Yes. As soon as you identify it, it's no longer a

49:51

UFO. Correct. But believing in UFOs is not the same thing as believing in we've been visited by extraterrestrials from outer space.

49:59

Oh, is that where all that came from? I saw a lot of the alien stuff in my feed, but I couldn't figure out where it came from.

50:05

Yeah. So see, there's stuff like this that'll pop up all the time, and it'll consume thinking, and people just will make it a hobby horse, and they'll research all this stuff, and the military's covering up.

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Oh, my goodness. We're covering that we've been visited by aliens and so on and so forth. Anyway, but this is not how we are to be as Christians.

50:27

All of that stuff that's going on, let people who are worldly scramble after that. I won't say that sometimes some of these conspiracy theories can be interesting.

50:35

Right. But it doesn't mean that we need to have our minds consumed by them. This call to be temperate means to be sound in thinking, because the instruction that's given to pastors in 1

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Timothy 3 is that they're to be temperate, meaning they're not given over to wild thoughts, but their mind is governed and dominated by the sound teaching that comes through the word of Christ.

50:59

Yeah. And this is what we teach. This is what we focus our minds and our hearts upon, and this is what we concern ourselves with the most, because it is in the belief in the gospel and living in the gospel that we are sanctified, and we're grown in holiness and godliness, which

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Paul goes on to explain in 1 Timothy 6. So it is through the sound teaching of our

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Lord Christ that pertains to godliness, that leads to godliness in the believer. Being dominated by conspiracy theories and devoting all your time to that is not going to lead to godliness.

51:34

I mean, even one of the fruit of the Spirit, part of the fruit of the Spirit is self -control. Yeah, exactly.

51:39

So that includes your mind. Yes. That would be part of that as well. So anyway, thank you for your question,

51:46

Timothy, and we'll wrap up there. Let's conclude with prayer. We also want to pray for our friend

51:53

Michael, who had—no, I'm sorry, it was a different question. I've got to save that question for next week. Craig in Texas, we're going to pray for you too, brother, as you are going to be visiting with your elders.

52:05

We would like to ask our listening audience for prayer for us. We lost a dear sister in the

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Lord this past Sunday morning who died and went home to be with Jesus, and it was expected.

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We knew that it was coming fairly soon. It was not COVID -19 related. It wasn't anything like that.

52:24

But her husband is now a widower, and he's one of our deacons at church. And so we would ask for your prayers for our church since we're not able to have a memorial service or anything like that until probably

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July or August. But continue to pray for us as we're mourning her loss in these days and mourning the broken heart of our brother as well, and be praying for our deacon

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Archie. He was ordained as deacon in the exact same ordination service where I was ordained as pastor.

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Yeah. And so always have had a deep love for this brother. Be praying for us in our church, and we thank you for your continued support of our ministry as well.

52:59

Let's pray. Yes, Lord. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the compassion that you show to us day by day and that while we were yet sinners,

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Christ died for us. And this is a truth, as we read it in Romans 5, 8, that continues to be a peace upon our minds and our hearts, that you have saved us from our sins, from the wages of sin, from the judgment that was coming upon our sin.

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And you have given us a kingdom to be with our Lord Christ forever in your glorious heaven where there will be no more sin or evil, no more consequences of these things like death and passing away.

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But all of this will be no more. You are making all things new.

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You are drying every tear from our eyes and will seat us in the heavenly places with you.

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And so I pray that this is our desire. Our eyes are kept heavenward.

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Our focus is upon Christ, the author and the perfecter of our faith. As we walk this pilgrim way, asking forgiveness for our sins and desiring to walk in righteousness for your name's sake.

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We pray for our brother Craig, who had sent in an email to us today. And I pray that you would bless him as he is going to continue these conversations with his elders about whether or not to be praying for forgiveness.

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And I pray that we would be humble in all of these things, never thinking too highly of ourselves. Never thinking as John Warren's in 1

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John 1, thinking of ourselves as being without sin, because then we would make God out to be a liar. But that we humble ourselves before the

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Lord and are constantly seeking your holiness day by day. Seeking out those places in our hearts that still need to be sanctified.

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That we may have no wicked way in us, but desiring the perfection that we have in Christ.

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We also pray for our church, and I pray for many churches that are out there that are struggling in these days with the shutdowns and the lockdowns and all this kind of thing.

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May we continue to be faithful to the Lord and the gospel first. There's going to be some financial difficulties, but we fear not what may come of us.

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Because we know that in the gospel of Christ we are saved. Our sins are not counted against us.

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And we have a kingdom that is far above and beyond any blessing that we could receive materially on this earth.

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Thank you for sustaining us in the midst of this. Let us never take our eyes off of Christ.

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We pray this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Little known fact.

56:42

Mike Brady invented Zoom. Thanks a bunch. Oh yeah, from Brady Bunch.

56:51

It's all those boxes. That's great.

56:59

Cleaning up my workspace here. That you should have done before you came and got me.

57:04

How did I get so trashy? And you have a doll. Have you been missing the girls?

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This was one that Raya brought me. I was trying to do something and she kept trying to give me the doll.

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I said, sweetie, I can't take the doll right now. So then at some point later on she came down here and set it on the desk.

57:25

And now I have company. There you go. Thank you.