Provoked: Evangelism with Bobby McCreery

Brothers, what we do in life, echoes in eternity.

I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian Church today. We don't know who God is, and we don't know who we are.

This is where we hold them. This is where we fight.

Officer, you need to repent of your lawless conduct. You don't know the law, and yet you pretend to represent it.

That's not law enforcement, sir. That's being a thug. We will not stop fighting and bothering you all until this monstrous, barbaric practice of legalized abortion ends, and we are teaching our children to do the same.

God's word says that the shed blood of innocent humans cries out for justice, and mark my words, they will have their day in court.

Nobody gets saved by being treated nicely. They get saved by hearing the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

If we don't open our mouths and commend Christ, we're not loving him, no matter what we're doing with our hands.

What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Provoked. I'm sitting next to my very pretty and tiny sister.

What's going on? I'm doing well, just, you know, getting through this pregnancy and enjoying every minute.

So, just going well. How are you? I'm doing well. How many weeks do you have left? About 10. 10 weeks.

It's amazing. It's a final countdown. Because you and Jess are almost the same. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, you're pregnant, but then

I've got a whole lot of time. Right. But those nine months just go by so quickly. It's just absolutely incredible.

Yeah, it does. Especially when you have more than one kid, I feel like it goes by really fast.

Like my first pregnancy felt really long, but the more kids you have, I feel like the quicker it goes.

Because you're busy, you know? Yeah, so busy. Yeah. So we're Provoked, and we hope you guys are enjoying our show.

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So ApologiaStudios .com, become an All Access member, and please do that today. So what are we doing today?

Well, we are going to have an evangelism clinic, a street evangelism clinic, to where we can help you share the faith, help you and equip you to get out there and to preach the gospel in the public square.

And we're excited about today because we have a good friend of ours. Bobby McCreary is joining us, and we are going to pick his mind on everything evangelism.

Now, he is a street evangelist. He's pretty much a missionary to our nation. He runs a ministry called

To the Ends of the Earth Ministries. And I appreciate this brother so much. I remember the first time that I heard him preach was in 2013,

Philadelphia at the Herald Society, the first Herald Society put on by Jeff Rose. And what

I noticed about Bobby so quickly, and what I continue to praise

God about when it comes to his ministry and his evangelistic kind of footprint out there is the balance that he has.

You know, as far as, as much as I know, that you can pop on a YouTube channel and look at people quote unquote evangelizing or representing

Jesus Christ, and they can become very lopsided or out of balance. What do I mean by that? They can preach fire.

They can, and a lot of what they're saying is true, but it's not done with grace. It's not done with compassion.

It's not done with a heart of love for those people. Then you can also go on the other kind of flip side and see people who are all about preaching that Jesus is love, love, love, but they're not telling you the hard things.

They're not telling you the essential things of the gospel. So what I see in Bobby and what I noticed at the

Herald Society quickly is a man who's balanced. And I think you can see it in his ministry effectiveness, that balance and how that kind of equates or how that kind of bears fruit.

So the content of his message, I don't think he compromises it the way that he communicates, the way that he addresses questions, and the way that he handles abuse and hecklers,

I think is exemplary. So that's why we wanted to bring him on the show to learn from him and to pick his mind again about everything evangelism.

So welcome to the show, Bobby. Thank you. Glad to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.

No, of course. So I want you to kind of tell us about the ministry, who you are, what you do, why you do it, and how we can support you.

Thanks, Zach. Yeah, To the End of the Earth is the ministry that the

Lord's given to my family and I. You can find our website. It's all spelled out like from Acts 1 -8, to the end of the earth .org.

And so basically how everything started was God saved me. I was a professing

Christian most of my life. And at 34, God came and got me out of my own delusion and sin.

And I knew I had to go tell the world about Jesus and tell them that Christianity was not what has been sold to the masses, especially in, let's say, places like the

Bible Belt, where I grew up. Right. And so I left my job, and December 31st, 2010 was my last day of being at my former employment.

And so the rest is history. God's had Kara, my wife and I, on this journey.

Praise God, we've been married for 23 years. First half of that, I was not saved.

Kara was saved before me, and God's given us four beautiful children. So we're grateful.

Yeah, I love looking at pictures. I don't know if I've ever seen a picture of you or your kids where you're not smiling.

You have just a beautiful family, man, and I appreciate that so much. Hey, how old are you? I'm 45.

You're 45, so God saved you about 11 years ago. Yeah, about 34.

It was right in the very beginning of 2009. Wow, so you had only been a

Christian for about four years before you started to the end of the earth. Is that correct? Well, before I started,

I pretty much started going out and witnessing in the open air as soon as God saved me. I think a lot, thanks in part a lot to, really, one of the main instruments

God used to save me was a message by Ray Comfort called True and False Conversion. A lot of people know

Ray Comfort for Hell's Best Kept Secret, and I actually, it's a crazy story, man.

I was going to church, this really seeker -sensitive church. Actually, a client of mine had persistently invited me there, and I really didn't want to go.

And I finally agreed to go, just hoping the guy would leave me alone. And the first time we ever went to that church, yeah, it's funny, it is a funny story,

Desi, because this guy asked me like three times. Every time I was meeting with this client, he would ask me, and the last time,

I literally, I remember I had this flash in my mind, like, punch him in the face. Like, I was getting so mad,

I did not want to deal with this guy. Then I'm like, come to my senses, are you crazy? Like, you'll probably go to jail, you'll lose your job.

So I just said, give me the address, we'll come on Sunday. Wow. And I thought, well, then I could just tell the guy, okay, we came, we saw, leave me alone.

Right. But God had other plans, because the very first time we ever went there, God saved my wife.

Woo! That's awesome. Praise the Lord. Yeah, she was born again. She had a desire to read the word of God and pray and live a holy life.

And all my life, if somebody asked me if I was a Christian, I would just say yeah, and hope they change the subject really quick.

Wow. And over time, about another year and a half, we were going to that church.

Like I said, it wasn't a great church, but you know, God can use things for his own glory.

And I actually signed up to go on a mission trip there when I was still unsaved. Wow. And so, yeah, that's the crazy part.

The guy that was leading our team, he wanted to train us using the way of the master. Really?

Yeah, and the church kind of frowned at that. They didn't really like the way of the master, but he did it anyway.

And we went through the basic training course, and at the end, we still had a few months before the trip, and so I ordered some tracts.

And in the box of tracts, they sent me that, it's like a dual CD. It has Hell's Best Kept Secret and True and False Conversion on it.

And I listened to Hell's Best Kept Secret, and well, that's like a message for Christians. You know, like hey, Christian, why aren't you witnessing?

So that didn't really mean much to me because I wasn't a Christian. But I began to listen to True and False Conversion, and around the same time, the same guy who had invited me to church gave me a copy of the message that's been heard around the world,

Paul Washer's, what do they call it? Shocking Message. Shocking Message, yep. So I'm listening to both of those messages, and I was driving about 1 ,000 miles a week for my job, and for probably about three weeks, any moment

I wasn't talking with a customer or an employee or a coworker,

I was listening to one of those messages. Wow. And I was just, God was just grinding me down to the end of myself.

My first kind of thought about it is I was like angry because I had the whole Southern Christian experience.

I prayed the prayer, I did all that. I got thrown into like three water tanks before I was ever actually born again.

Went in a dry center, came out a wet center. And I had done all that.

And so I start listening to these guys preach, and I'm like, man, these guys are making me feel like I'm not saved.

And I remember well -meaning VBS pastor guy saying, look, if you really meant that, then you're a

Christian, and all these things that we hear. And so I was angry.

And then I started taking my Bible with me to work, and when they would quote a scripture, I would try and look it up because I thought maybe these guys are heretics.

Like I went to a Christian school, kindergarten through sixth grade, so I knew enough to be dangerous to myself and other people.

And then I started looking up these scripture references, and I'm like, they're not twisting the Bible, they're just quoting it.

So then I'm terrified because I'm like, wow, I am lost. And I went through probably another week listening to those messages, and there was even times where I contemplated suicide.

I was like so undone, and I started asking myself questions like, why am

I not in hell right now? And thinking I should be in hell. And you talk about the

Lord opening the heart. I mean, the gospel is clearly presented in both of those messages, but I didn't have ears to hear.

And one day after listening to them, probably dozens and dozens of times, each one,

I was driving on the interstate in my work truck, and I heard the gospel, and it was like I heard it for the first time ever.

Wow. And I just began to weep and tremble, and I had to pull aside the road, and I just began to cry out to the

Lord. And yeah, so that was, when I signed up to go on this mission trip, this is the amazing thing.

We were sitting in the sanctuary of the church waiting for the service to start.

And I mean, this church was like smoke machine and lights and all this stuff.

Glitter. Yeah, it was just a wild scene. And I committed to go on that trip.

Like I'm having this internal conversation with God. I believe he wants me to go, and I don't really understand why. And I just said to him,

I thought money would be an obstacle. So I said, well, show me how to get that money. I don't know how that's gonna happen.

But then I also just prayed this prayer like, I don't understand why you would want someone like me, if you know what

I'm like, every day that I'm not in this place, why would you want someone like me to go to Bolivia and tell people about Jesus?

And I said, so I feel like something needs to change. If you really want me to do that, you need to change something in me. And so that day that I cried out to the

Lord, and I believe the Lord saved me, was actually nine days before we left to go on the trip.

That's awesome, man. Yeah, the Lord is merciful and gracious. He is, and that's just so kind of remarkable.

I mean, thinking back to 2013, and all praise and glory and honor to God, but it just seems like he really matured you quickly.

And of course, he brought Ray Comfort into your life. He brought Ray Comfort into my life. I feel like what

Tony Miano says, that Ray Comfort's gonna have a lot of crowns to give back to Christ because of how instrumental.

But I think that's kind of a good kind of segue, because what we were just talking about is that we don't want to present biblical evangelism as some type of academic elitist group of people that only they can evangelize.

What we wanna do in our show is equip the body, just the regular guy, because we're a bunch of regular people, ordinary, about as ordinary as you can get.

But what we wanna do is for the people watching, we want them to be empowered and emboldened and equipped to share the gospel.

I think what we need to do in that is present the training of something that, again, you don't have to be an academic elitist.

Unfortunately, I think a broader segment of the American Evangelical Church thinks, if only

I knew everything about every topic out there or about every single religion out there, then

I would be capable of sharing the faith. Now, that's not to say we need to know what we're talking about.

I mean, if you're talking to a member of the Mormon Church, you need to know. If you're talking to a JW, you need to know, or anybody else.

But we wanna put it on the lower shelf level in the sense of just describing what biblical evangelism is.

So as we move forward, this is gonna be a clinic for you. It's gonna be a clinic for the folks listening to be able to share the faith.

But what I wanna do is kinda get in the mindset that people don't know at all how to share the faith.

And what I think what we'll do as we discuss is we kinda have to peel back the layers a little bit.

And what I mean by that is there's a lot of false understanding of what biblical evangelism is, right, in the

American Evangelical Church. There's a lot of quote -unquote evangelistic methods, or there's a lot of definitions of biblical evangelism that really doesn't find its source in the

Scriptures. So as we discuss, be thinking about, okay, number one, the people that we're talking to don't know how to share their faith.

And number two, how can we kind of pull the curtains back and make sure we are pointing directly to the

Scriptures as our source for what we're saying? Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay, cool.

So number one, and we'll just throw out this question, throw out this topic, what is biblical evangelism?

What is biblical evangelism? We'll start with you, Bobby. Well, I mean,

I would say it's pretty simple. It comes from the Evangelion. It's just a simple message of the good news.

So I would say it's the sharing of the good news about a holy creator, a fallen and sinful mankind, the punishment we deserve for our sin, and about redemption through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and then calling people to respond to that message through repentance and faith.

Yeah, good, that's a good starting point. And it is, it is so much more simple than I think we can imagine what people tend to think, because they, you know, so many people have told me, if only

I knew, again, if only I knew this and I don't know enough here, then

I would be able to evangelize. But evangelism is, again, it's just the declaration of the true gospel message to the lost.

Biblical evangelism, right, is going to the lost and sharing with them a message.

And it's gotta be done using words, right? It's gotta be done using words written down or words coming out of your mouth.

But that is basically it. So what is the difference, and I know you went into the gospel components there a little bit, let's dive into that for the people who are wanting to know what the essential components of the gospel message are, but what's the difference between a false gospel message and the true gospel message?

Well, I mean, I think that a false gospel message will always, more often than not, it will be an incomplete message, a partial message, or it will have things that are just wrong in it.

I mean, obviously, if you're dealing with cults and things that are not true about God, but I think in broader evangelicalism, a lot of the false gospels that get presented have to do with almost like truncations of the gospel.

Exactly. You're just giving parts of it. I mean, I would say that probably the things that are most neglected today are talking about things like sin.

Repentance is like a four -letter word in the broader evangelical church today.

You very rarely hear these things. And so a false gospel is not going to present all of the facts about God, man, sin, redemption, and repentance, and faith.

It's going to cut somewhere in there. They're gonna cut things out. And generally, that's because,

I mean, let's face it. Evangelism is, especially living in a post -Christian culture,

I mean, you are gonna be mocked, maligned, made fun of, and things like that.

So I think a lot of these things have to do with attempts to soften the message in order to not have those things happen to you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that was just an excellent way of explaining it. A false gospel message is one that adds to the gospel, which

I don't really see as much, and I think you're right, it's more or less a truncation or it's a reducing of what the gospel is.

It's a taking out of essential components. And I think one of the reasons why we do that in the broader

American evangelical church is because of the seeker -sensitive movement, right, that was built based upon Rick Warren and Bill Heibel's type of work there, to where we really have to, for lack of a better way of explaining it, kind of roll out the red carpet for the unbeliever to get them into church.

And once we get them into church, then we can share the gospel with them. But it's a very man -centered way of building the church.

I mean, if you go back really to the roots of it, I think what they had done is they did a demographic study of their cities at that time, and they asked thousands, tens of thousands of people what they want the church to be, what they hate about the traditional church.

And then they went ahead and they built a church on that. When I was reading that book, Purpose -Driven Church, back in 1995, it really didn't dawn on me.

I wasn't Reformed really at that time, and I think it was because of my Reformed theology now that I didn't think of, hey, wait a second, you're actually going to people who are totally depraved, who hate

God, they're in their nature enemies with God, and asking them how he should be worshiped and how the church should be constructed.

Yeah, that's a little bit of a problem there. But the problem is that massive amount of churches within America, and of course globally now, are built on that type of philosophy of ministry.

That's the blueprint. It's the dead God -hating man, we cater to him, we placate to him so that he would come and sit down, and then once we got a whole lot of people in one location, then we're successful as a church.

And so what we've done is, because of that philosophy of ministry, that's why the truncation of the gospel comes in.

That's why we eliminate the hard components. And what you've done now is you've tried to get men just inside of a location, men and women, you have built a church of the tares and not a church of the wheat.

Because if the gospel is not being proclaimed, if it has been reduced in any way, shape, or form from the biblical description, then you don't have a true gospel.

So what are the essential components? Because people are, they're thinking right now, okay, I want to go share my faith, but what are the components in the message of the gospel that are non -negotiables, that are completely indispensable to the whole message?

I would say that, first of all, the gospel, we should always begin with God.

And that's something, because, you know, what did John Piper say? God is the gospel. You know, at the chief end of our being is to glorify

God. And so I would say we should start with God. I didn't always get that or understand that, even when

I got started. I would start with sin a lot, but I think it begins with God as a good and gracious creator, that he's the creator, that God is a righteous judge, and that there's only one true

God. Psalm 96, five, it says, all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the

Lord created the heavens. So I think we begin with God. I think we talk about the

Bible being our foundation for who God is. You know, I'm sure you guys have run into this a lot.

You know, you get people saying like, my God would never send anyone to hell, or my God, this, or the

Jesus I believe in. And so usually I'll say to someone, well, where do you get your information about that God?

Right, that's good. You know, because if you're not talking about the God of scripture, then you're just talking about some being that you invented in your own mind.

So the Bible is a foundation, the Bible being God breathed. I would say other essentials would be that Jesus was born of a virgin.

I think that gets left out a lot. Why is that important? Because Jesus did not inherit a nature of sin by not having an earthly father, at least that he came from the seed of.

Jesus being God incarnate, that God is triune. And then, so, you know, all we've talked about so far is

God. Right. So then you move into, you know, God graciously created.

He created man in his own image. And what did man do? He sinned. So you have to talk about the sinfulness of sin.

You know, that's what Paul said. I would have not known sin, but for the law, and that through the law, sin became exceedingly sinful.

And you look through, I mean, if you want to see how sin has devastated us,

I mean, obviously you just look around the world today, even what's happening in our own culture today, but I mean, just read the

Old Testament. Right. And you see that people rebel and it has, you know, horrific consequences, oftentimes even on their own offspring.

Right. And so you have a creator God who's a just judge and fallen man.

And so then you have to have one who stood in their place who was not a sinful person.

And so there's Jesus again. Not only was he not born in sin, he never committed sin. No deceit was found in his mouth.

He was tempted in every way we are tempted, but without sin. And at the end of his life, he died on the cross as a substitute, that there was a wrath appeasing sacrifice because the

Bible says God is angry with the wicked every day. So I think, you know, and these things are,

I mean, we're talking about essentials, right? And I think you can explain these things in very simple ways, say like the work of justification.

Well, we have a record of debt that needs to be wiped out. And God does that through the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

He closed the believer in the righteousness of Christ and he forgives their sin through the atonement or the propitiation of Christ by his blood.

And then another thing that gets left out a lot is the resurrection. And if you read 1

Corinthians 15, I mean, Paul says, you know, if Christ has not been raised, we are of all people most to be pitied.

So, you know, really our salvation is birthed through and hinged on the resurrected

Christ defeating the power of hell, proving that he was not a sinner.

And so I would say those would be essentials. And then that salvation is by grace through faith, that it's not of works, the necessity of the new birth.

And then I think the call, again, the call throughout the scriptures, if we look at the

New Testament model and even the prophets would call the people to repentance. Today, you hear a lot of just believe in Jesus, just believe in Jesus.

But even Jesus' first words in his earthly ministry were, you know, the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the gospel.

So I would say those would be things that would be essential. I mean, can you get to them and, you know, every single one of them in every conversation?

I mean, obviously not, but you try to get what you can of all those things into conversation.

Right, sometimes you have a five -minute conversation, sometimes you have a 30 -second conversation or a 15 -minute conversation, so.

Right. But that was a, go ahead, Jess. Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, and it's going back to Romans 1 .16

of believing, you know, that the gospel is the power of salvation, you know?

So I think like we were talking about the church, you know, kind of the American, broader American evangelical church and what's kind of taking place and what we've seen just doing evangelism with trying to get people into the church, you're trying to get the unconverted to go to church and then hopefully hear a message.

We're really not believing that the gospel's the power of God unto salvation. So we're like taking this and we're using pragmatism to hopefully like get people to come into a church and maybe hear the gospel.

And so really focusing on like, no, no, that is the means, that is how God saves people.

Because sometimes you'll just be talking to people and you're like, you know, they'll give you all these other ideas or methodologies and it can just get so muddied and gray.

And that's why when we're out, I feel like in the public and we get have, you know, self -proclaimed Christian after Christian criticizing, it's because that's what they're hearing at church.

They're hearing, you know, just be nice to people, do good things. Even you brought up Bobby, like missionary trips.

Sometimes they'll go down and they'll just give them food supplies and medical needs, which is great.

Those are nice and good things to do, things Christians, we should be doing those things. But if we're not giving people the gospel, what are we doing?

Yeah, that's right. And we're gonna be diving into that. I think that's a good segue to the next topic. But I think, yeah, that was a great explanation of the essential components.

Like I hope people go back and really memorize what you just said, because I think you've really encapsulated in not so many words, those essential components.

And again, I like what Ray says. He says, hey, look, if you're taking a medicine, some medicine that's gonna cure you of a disease and you eliminate some essential chemical components, what that does is it dilutes down that particular medicine or that particular whatever it may be to help you.

And there's no curative powers. So we have to understand that in our presentation of the gospel, there is no essentials in there.

It's not gonna have any type of power. Like you just quoted Romans 116, the gospel is the power of God into salvation.

That we, it's not about the messenger, it's just about the message. And I like what you also said,

Bobby, is we wanna make sure as we're explaining it, people understand it. So I really would encourage you as you're sharing the gospel with whoever on the street, a family member, whoever it may be,

I would really encourage you to say, are you understanding this? Because sharing the gospel is not an opportunity to wax eloquent.

Sometimes we can get a little off in the deep end or away from really the mission at hand to think that we're just called to unload a bunch of biblical knowledge using a bunch of Christian words to people who'd have no clue of what we're talking about.

So we need to understand that, yeah, we need to take the time to explain, to break it down, to be simple.

And if we're presenting the gospel message and the biblical methodology of sharing the gospel with people, we're presenting it in a very biblical way, of course, but a simple way more people are gonna do it.

But again, if we are just presenting it in a way that you have to be some type of orator or eloquent or some mega brain, the body of Christ is never gonna do it.

They're never gonna do it. What we need to do, what we wanna do primarily through Provoked is get the body preaching the gospel.

That is how we'll see exponential expanse of the kingdom. That's what we'll see, the movement of God exponentially in our culture, and everything kind of changes from there.

But I think that's great. And just to maybe summarize what you said about the essential components, and we'll move on. The essential components start with who

God is. God is, and you went into it, I'm not gonna belabor that, but God is creator, God is holy, which is absolutely essential.

When you reveal the holiness of God, then you move directly into the sinfulness of man.

Because even see in Isaiah, when he was presented before the Lord, he said, woe is me.

When he saw that the Lord was holy, holy, holy, holy in that Isaiah chapter six, he said, woe is me,

I'm a man of unclean lips. So when the holiness of God is revealed to a sinful man, then he becomes aware of his sinfulness.

So it would be God is creator, God is holy, the sinfulness of man. God is a judge, there is a day of judgment coming.

And then you get into the law, which of course the law tutors the unbeliever, that the man is a sinner, headed for hell.

Of course the law affects not his intellect, but his conscience. So the law, and then you have the judgment, which is if God is good, he must punish all unbelievers.

And that judgment is an everlasting punitive sentence in a place called hell. Hell's an essential component, but God is also gracious and merciful.

And he sent his son, God, God becoming man in the person of Jesus Christ. Then you get into who

Jesus is, his substitutionary sacrifice, his death, his resurrection. Now he's seated at the right hand of the father, commanding every man everywhere to repent.

It's not an invitation, it's a command of the reigning king. So that was absolutely awesome, Bobby, and the way that you explained that.

So getting into what Desi just said, how does the American evangelical church define evangelism?

I know we're gonna step on toes here, we're gonna make people mad, but it's called provoked. So I think we need to be a little bit more.

It's not for the purpose of making people mad. It's not for the purpose of - It's not called placate.

It's not placate, exactly. You don't see that behind us. I wanted to just, if we could backtrack for a second, just touch on something you said,

Zach. I think one of the reasons, it just sort of came to my mind as you were talking about it, the holiness of God and who

God is is so important is, at least in my experience in Open Air Witness, and I spent years doing this, sometimes it's not that we don't need to preach about sin and talk about sin and things like that, but it's like sometimes

I think we can get so focused on the sin that's happening right in front of us that we're talking so much about that.

But when you think about it from a lost person's perspective, if that's all they've ever known, and you're out there saying, hey, you're getting drunk, or you're in this type of idolatry, and I mean, without the holiness of God, they're thinking, so what?

What's wrong with that? That's right. And so when you preach the holiness of God, you're saying, listen, the reason why this is a problem is because your entire life is in rebellion to your created purpose, and what you're actually doing is spitting in the face of the

God who made you for his glory, and that's why your sin is so sinful.

Good. Because otherwise, they're just saying, I'm just like everybody else

I know, right? I mean, I think Zion talks about it. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I mean, a lot of times people hear that and they go, see, I'm no different than anybody else. Exactly. But that's not an excuse for sin.

That's God's indictment against every single individual. Right. I think too, it really captures the insidious nature of, and again, we don't wanna beat up on the church.

I'm not trying to say every church in America is bad. That is false. But the insidious nature of not preaching a full gospel message, not preaching the whole entire counsel of the word of God, and then expecting people to respond in a way that would be how

God calls us to respond. So for instance, you go to a lot of churches and they'll quote scripture over here.

They'll be like, here's some scripture about David and three steps to improve your life. But it's really not preaching the full counsel of God.

And so people don't know like they're standing before God. Sin is left out, hell is left out.

Maybe sometimes it'll be kind of thrown in there, but it's like what me and my husband Don have called like a

Bible light, where they kind of mix in. And it's so insidious because people go every week, week after week, and they're like,

I'm good. I go to church, I love Jesus. But they really have never been broken before the

Lord. They don't understand their nature. They think these good works or just going to church is going to appease

God, but they don't have a clear and biblical understanding of what it truly means to be broken before the

Lord and in need of Christ. That's exactly right. And I think that's what Bobby was explaining is it's the holiness of God coupled with the law, right?

The holiness of God is there as that's revealed to you, his holiness. And of course, the law is just a picture of his holy character.

So those things that the law flows out of the holiness of God, his holy character. I mean, the law is just how

God would live on the earth if he was a human. Of course, Jesus comes and lives that way completely perfectly in harmony with the law of God.

So that's the essential. And that's why Ray has been such a blessing to the church and it's been such a massive revival in evangelism.

God has just used him instrumentally. And all he did was say, hey, let's get back to using the law and evangelism and man, explosion,

God's blessing, and waking people up, me included. It's so important.

So yeah, like we're saying, we don't beat up on the bride of Christ. Anybody beats up on my bride, it's not going to be a good day for them.

And I know you would say the same thing, Bobby. So we never ever want to beat up on the bride of Christ, but we do need to address diseases in the way that people think, especially evangelism, because it is our mission.

It is an essential part of the Christian life. It is our MO as Christians.

We are supposed to be lights of the world. We are supposed to go about being witnesses. Right before he sent it, he said, go into all the world and be witnesses, right?

Acts chapter one, verse eight. I mean, this is not just some non -essential issue. This is the big mission of what we're still doing here on this planet.

It's to bring the gospel to the law. So how do you think the greater

American evangelical church would wrongly define evangelism, or how do they define it?

What do you think, Bobby? Well, I mean, I think there's all kind of ways they could define it, but I think probably the most common error is probably confusing acts of service with evangelism.

And so I think it goes back to something Desi kind of touched on, because they've lost either they never believed it and it's not a true church, or they could have been a true church at some point, and they just stopped believing that it's the gospel that's the power of God for salvation.

And so they, and really, when you think about what's being preached in a lot of these seeker -sensitive churches,

I mean, is it really even salvation that they're looking for, or is it just a decision for Jesus, or something like that?

Are they really talking about being born again and becoming a new creation, all these things? So you can see all kinds of variations of this.

I mean, for some of these people, some of these churches, I don't really think most of these are churches, but I mean, their evangelism is basically like bouncy houses and barbecues.

You know, which is neither one of those things are necessarily sinful in and of themselves, but if there's no gospel there,

I mean, you've heard it said before, someone of old said, then you're just giving people a more comfortable place to go to hell from.

Yeah, that's important. Yeah, we should talk about that a little bit more descriptively, but can you share the gospel without sharing the gospel?

I mean, can I go and I take a group of the church people down to the park and I set up a tent and a barbecue and hand out hot dogs and waters?

Am I evangelizing there? Well, no,

I mean, not if you're not giving at least a gospel track at minimum or opening your mouth.

I mean, you can't evangelize without the gospel. Exactly, so what we're saying, a water bottle is not the gospel and a hot dog's not the gospel.

Yeah, and we need to, and I know we've been in the field for a while, but so many people believe that, and I remember presenting an evangelistic idea to a church

I worked at about four years ago. I said, look, I just wanna go down to the trolley station or the light rail station here, it's a trolley in San Diego, and I said,

I just wanna share the gospel, and he said, well, is that gonna get people into the church, and aren't you just supposed to live your life?

So that's a good question. Yeah, can I touch on that? Aren't we supposed to live our life? Isn't that the way that we evangelize?

Go ahead, Dusty. Yeah, well, yeah, I was just gonna actually talk about that. I had somebody correct me before.

Actually, it's happened more than once. I'm sure it's happened to Bobby, too, and I know it's happened to you, where they say exactly that.

Well, you just said that it happened, but yeah, you're gonna turn people away. They're never gonna go to church, but you could do all these other good things, like you need to go and serve them, and give them hot dogs, and go wash their cars for free, and so one thing that had come to me one day is

I'm like, you know who's super nice? If you were talking about religious groups, and they do a ton for the community, probably some of the nicest people you'd ever meet,

Mormons, but they do not have a God that saves. They don't have a gospel message that saves.

All that soup that they give people, all that service won't save one person, and so me being nice, and people looking onto my life, of course,

I wanna be nice. I have the Lord, I feel like I'm a joyful person because of what

Christ has done in my life, and I hope that people see that, but man, if somebody's looking on my life to be saved, they're going to hell, because ain't nobody getting saved from watching me do any good works.

That's good, because we're supposed to point to one person, but it surely ain't us. If our life is supposed to be a gospel message, it's powerless, it's just not the gospel message.

I think what we're getting to simply is that without the communication of the gospel, even coming out of your mouth or giving a tract, you cannot evangelize, and you can give as much hot dogs out, or waters, or whatever it may be, but there is no evangelism being accomplished, and that's what, it desperately needs to be heard, because so many people are being led by leaders who are calling that evangelism when it's not.

We need to make sure we're speaking on this, because so much time is being wasted.

You asked that question. I mean, if you got three different sets of people, groups of people at a park, three different, you got

Muslims, you've got Christians, Protestant Christians, Evangelical Christians, and Mormons, and they're all giving out hot dogs, who's preaching the gospel?

Well, nobody's preaching the gospel. So again, these acts of services are great, and I'm not against just loving your neighbor and feeding hot dogs.

Remember, we used to do it at City on a Hill Church, and we would give, I don't know, in the spans of five years, I don't know, tens of thousands of hot dogs, but we always have to couple that with the gospel message.

It's, let me give you a hot dog, because God commands me to love my neighbor, but let me share with you the gospel too.

One thing that totally irks me too, it's like one of my, it just gets under my skin, is the way that we've muddied that word love.

So we used to go to a church where they did a lot of cool stuff for the community.

One time they had a huge Halloween outreach thing, and there was thousands of people there, and it was really cool.

It was kind of a safe environment for people to come and families, and I really appreciated it. Our family loved it, but one thing that was missing is that there was no gospel message.

There was no tracts. There was nothing, and so we had written saying, hey, we really love this.

We enjoyed it. It was a blessing to our family, but we just feel like, man, that was a missed opportunity for thousands of people who might never, ever step foot into our church to potentially get the gospel message, and we missed it, and the response was, you know, we just want to love on people.

Yeah, that's it. Hey, but what is the most loving thing that we can do? I understand that. I think giving people hot dogs and a safe place to go take your kids is amazing.

It's wonderful, and we should do it, and we're not poopooing good works, of course. Go in and lay down your life for your community, the lost, the saved.

Lay down your life for your neighbors. Serve them. Yeah, do it, but once we start saying that it is unloving to give someone the gospel, oh boy, we are in trouble.

We are in trouble with our theology. We don't know what love is. We need to really get back to what

God's word says, loving, and what is the most loving thing you can do is tell somebody the truth about Jesus.

That's it, and I heard somebody just saying that in a song I was listening to, a worship song on the way over here.

He said, I thought it was great, you cannot love without the truth, that the truth proclaimed, the gospel message proclaimed is the highest type of love, and I always say this, but people who love at the highest level, the greatest lovers of people on this planet are people who share in the gospel because we're helping, we're dealing with people at the point of where they need help the most, but it's so important that we're defining biblical evangelism because you think about people in a shipwreck and a boat comes up alongside of them that they're expecting people to be throwing out a line that these people can hold onto to rescue them, and I think what we're coming to is, or what we're seeing is we're seeing a bunch of churches that should be in a rescue mission preaching the gospel, they're not throwing out lines to the lost, they're not, and they're saying that they are.

What do I mean by that? Is they're reducing and redefining evangelism, they think that they're doing that, but they're not.