Cultish: Decoding the Enneagram Pt. 2

Cultish: Decoding the Enneagram, Part 2

The three synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are about Jesus. John is about Christ. And the reason we have so misused and misinterpreted John's Gospel is this is the eternal archetypal Christ talking.

Jesus as the Way, Truth, and Life

He can say, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But he's not talking about Jesus. He's talking about this mystery, this amalgam of matter and spirit, which is the way for everybody that you discover spirit in this material universe.

Sacredness in Religious Traditions

That was true for the native religions, was true for Judaism, was certainly apparent in Hinduism, if you've ever been to India, where gods are everywhere, the sacred is everywhere. They're always anointing everything, especially the male and female genitals, even in the temples.

It's all sacred. It's sort of shocking for us prudish Christians. This is sacred too. It's all one sacred universe. We got a lot of unlearning to do. And that's why we teach contemplation, because contemplation is mostly unlearning.

All right, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, Entering the Kingdom of the Cults. My name's Jeremiah Roberts. I'm one of the co-hosts here. Super excited for this episode. Second time is the charm.

Somewhere out there, there is a part two of the Enneagram series, somewhere out in Computerphile, Tronville, somewhere out there in the digital archives. And so, this is actually a re-recording of part two of our discussion.

I'm here with Andrew, the super sleuth of the show. Good to see you back for part two of part two of the Enneagram series. It's been kind of a trip to see all the efforts. Like I said, if you guys are listening to this now, we appreciate your patience.

Like I said, we just had some major audio issues that happened, and it took a while to try and recover those files, but then it turns out the best thing to do was just to re-record with our guests. So, Andrew, I'm super excited to talk with our guests once again.

So am I.

Martian Montenegro, how are you?

Hi, I'm doing pretty well, thank you. I'm glad that we could do this.

Yes, yeah, it's great to get reacquainted again. And so, just real quickly, just tell them a little bit about yourself, your ministry. You've got a website out there, and you're always putting content out online, but just in case people wanna find you, as a point of reference before we get into this discussion, where can people find you?

Sure, yes. Well, I have a website, christiananswersforthenewage .org. There are lots of articles there. If you go to the articles page, there's quite a few articles on New Age and occult topics, including what we're gonna discuss tonight.

I'm also on Facebook. I have a ministry page called Christian Answers for the New Age that you can like and follow. And I post a lot of stuff there, sometimes every day. I do a lot of posts. So those are two ways that you can see what I'm writing and see what I'm discussing.

And yeah, my background is that I was in the New Age for at least 20 years, a very long time. I was a professional astrologer. And I was involved in Eastern spiritual beliefs and Hinduism, Tibetan Buddhism, and then Zen Buddhism.

And I did Eastern forms of meditation. I took psychic development classes. I had to row cards. I took numerology. I was pretty much touching a lot of the areas of the New Age during those years. And then the Lord intervened in my life.

And I didn't even want to, I mean, I wasn't trying to leave or anything, and God just intervened and pulled me out of there. It was kind of a process before I actually had the moment when I trusted Christ.

But that story is on my website under A Strange But True Spiritual Journey. So it's there if you want to read it. And I've also done quite a few podcasts and interviews where I give my story as well.

Yeah, excellent. Yeah, the first time I even heard about you, there's a segment, I don't believe it was released in the actual film of American Gospel, the second one. Oh yeah. And that was, what was the second one titled again?

Christ Crucified.

Christ Crucified. And I believe there was an extra clip that might've been even shared on your website. Someone shared it and I saw it. And I just remember people messaging us about the Enneagram and then there I saw like your video there.

So it's good to be able to talk with you and get acquainted. So real quickly, in our last episode, we had talked about really the origins, kind of the historical origins, the history, where it came from.

We kind of named some real major players. And one of the things we really kind of hit across too is that the fundamental foundation of the origins of the Enneagram was originated by spirit contact via automatic writing.

And the process of automatic writing is where you're basically in contact with some sort of higher entity and you just write whatever comes down. This is similar to Christian science. It was Mary Baker Eddy who did that.

And that's one that she did. She was involved in automatic writing and that's been a huge part of the occult. And that's where the numbers came from. But then eventually, you know, it kind of worked its way up through different new age schools and people like that.

Even schools that were involved in different psychedelics and other things that are becoming more normalized. But what we're focused on was, in this episode, is Richard Rohr. Because he's the one from your book, and you had talked about this in our first episode, our first part two, the first part of part two, which we're now re-recording, is that Richard Rohr was the one you kind of, I'll say, use a quotation mark, Christianized it.

But what we're gonna demonstrate, what I want you to go in depth with is that even Richard Rohr, who's made, really is the one who's tried to normalize it, and now it's just exploded. All throughout it, we've got tons of messages about different, even local churches here that are now having their own

Certificate programs.

Certification programs, so you can figure out your enereotype. You know, we had the audio that we played of the pastor from Sandals Church in California.

Right.

Who is doing

Put your Bibles away.

Yeah.

We're not gonna talk about

Put your Bibles away, and we're gonna use the Bible to talk about your eneotype number, which is originated from something that God says, don't do, this is abomination, this is on level of child sacrifice.

So, all that being said, what we wanna focus in on is Richard Rohr, and fundamentally, let's start off categorically in his theology, because that's what it really comes down to. This is not about attacking Richard Rohr as a person, his character, anything like that.

I'm sure, you know, just from you listening to the audio, he definitely sounds like a nice, warm, and gentle person. I believe he's sincere. I think he's really trying to help people. However, his theology is not, I would argue, is not something that lines up with Scripture, nor is even remotely Christian at all.

So, let's start, if you can, let's go ahead and just start with his Christology. What does he say about Jesus? Because I noticed he differentiated between Jesus and Christ in that opening clip. So, maybe just for starters, can you just tell us a little bit about Richard Rohr, and what does he believe about Jesus?

Sure, yes. Richard Rohr does make a distinction between the historical Jesus and what he calls the universal Christ. And at one time, he used the term the cosmic Christ. So, you can still find some older videos online or talks that he gave where he uses the term the cosmic Christ, which he actually got from Teilhard de Chardin.

So, what he believes is that, first of all, the first incarnation of Christ was creation. That was the first incarnation of Christ. So, creation is like Christ is in creation, and creation is like his body, and his spirit is in creation.

The second incarnation was Jesus. So, there you have Jesus is the second incarnation of Christ, not the first. And he believes that Jesus, while Jesus was living his life on earth, he had the universal Christ.

But after the resurrection, the universal Christ was more or less released out into the world. And these are my terms, by the way. I'm not quoting Richard Rohr. I'm explaining it as I understand it from him.

The universal Christ was sort of released. So, Jesus was like a vehicle to bring the universal Christ to that level because the universal Christ, I guess, being in creation was sort of trapped there in creation, but after the resurrection could now kind of be released into the atmosphere, for want of a better term, and is a power, that universal Christ is a power that is pulling all creation and everything and everyone in creation towards a future point of perfection.

This idea is similar to Teilhard de Chardin. And Richard Rohr has openly talked about Teilhard de Chardin and clearly he got some of these ideas from him because Teilhard de Chardin was a Roman Catholic, he was a scientist.

I think he was a paleontologist and he wanted to reconcile evolution with the teachings of the Catholic Church. But he, and for whatever reason, I don't know if that had to do with his universal Christ or his cosmic Christ is the term he used, but he had this idea of the cosmic Christ pulling everything, which is kind of like evolution.

So evolution is progress and you're progressing in this evolutionary way towards this point of perfection. And this is being done by the cosmic Christ and that's the term he used. I am no expert at all on him.

I only know a little bit. I know enough to see how it parallels Richard Rohr's.

Teachings.

So Richard Rohr, this is what Richard Rohr teaches. One of the illustrations he gave for this, which was on his website and still may be there, is he has a illustration of Jesus as it's holding a kite.

Jesus is holding the kite and the kite is the universal Christ. So the historical Jesus is down here on the ground level and the kite is floating way, way up here so that everybody can see the kite. So you can see the kite, you can see the universal Christ, even if you can't see Jesus down on the ground holding it.

It's not necessary for you to know about or to see Jesus. You can see, as long as you understand this universal Christ, that's sufficient to realize who you really are and what's really going on. That's the bottom line of it.

So that's pretty much what he's teaching. You know, he said Matthew, Mark and Luke talk about Jesus. John and Paul write about the universal Christ.

So I have a question too. What I was hearing in terms of Christ, the first incarnation of Christ being essentially creation, I'm hearing panentheism, right? Can you explain that to our listeners? It sounds like this is the main theology that drives pretty much like the lens that he puts on, which through he interprets all of scripture through is this core panentheism.

Could you explain that for the listeners? It is an important view for him, correct? Yes, panentheism is not pantheism. So just because it is easy to confuse them. Pantheism is that all is God and God is all.

So basically God is identified with creation. God and creation are the same, one and the same. Panentheism is that God is contained in creation. Creation is in God, but God also transcends creation. And panentheism really, even though the word is relatively new, I think somebody came up with the term, I think even in the 18th or 19th century.

So it's relatively recent, but the idea of it goes way, way back, even to ancient, like ancient Greece. And so panentheism has always been there, but most people don't hear about it because I think most people don't know about it basically.

They don't have a reason to know about it. They hear about pantheism because that's more obvious and you can see that in some of the animistic religions and things like that. But panentheism is more subtle.

And so since it's not so outright, God is creation, but God is in creation, it can even sound good to people. They can even sound Christian if they're not really properly interpreting scripture, they don't have a proper understanding of who God is.

Because it does cause a different God. When you have panentheistic God, you have a different God. You don't have the God of the Bible. You have a God who's part of creation, who's subject to things that happen in creation and in time.

And it really changes the nature of God. But this is a very core belief of Richard War and he openly professes it and he openly discusses it. He has no problem at all admitting it and trying to explain it.

If you go to his blog, he has a lot of things that he's written on it.

I mean, he like kind of explains it even in that opening clip. Like it sounds like the Enneagram, in terms of him using the words, we need to unlearn many things. It's because essentially to him, we would have a divine DNA that needs to be untapped.

And it's the Enneagram that helps you do that to unlearn these things, these things that have blocked us from reaching that stage essentially. So very important.

Yes, and notice he said that's why we do contemplation is to unlearn. Contemplation, which is a big part of his teachings is using these contemplative methods that actually just did another program today on this very topic.

And it's using what I call contemplative practices that are based on several different things, medieval monasticism and mysticism, and then a more recent movement, the centering prayer movement, some of which is based on Eastern meditation techniques from Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington.

And I have articles on that on my website. And these techniques are not based on the Bible. This is not like your normative prayer or your normative biblical meditation, which is meditating on the word of God.

Or maybe you can meditate on the nature of God. That's a biblical Christian meditation. But these are techniques that you do and you basically are not really thinking, you're suspending your thinking mind.

In fact, Thomas Keating says in one of his books, if you're going to pray, if you're going to wanna be close to God, then you can't think about God. He actually says that. So Thomas Keating was a friend of Richard Rohr, and Richard Rohr has referred to Thomas Keating, clearly admires him.

And Thomas Keating is sort of the big pooh-bah of this contemplative stuff. He died about two years ago, Keating did. I heard him speak in person in 2005. So the contemplation, he says you have to unlearn.

And that is true. If you do those practices over and over and over on a regular basis, your mind will become more open and suggestible to new ideas. And so he's right when he says that it will help you unlearn.

I agree with him on that. I don't think it's a good thing, but I think he's right.

Yeah, and in fact, so the reason I think why we're bringing this up, and so why does this matter when it comes, so we're talking about the Enneagram. So why are you kind of talking about this idea of Christ consciousness?

So it's interesting to me, it's interesting and providential that we're having to push out the series. And then we had our conversation with Stephen Bankart, who was here in our previous episodes. And it was really focused in on the aspect of really kind of debunking the idea of Christ consciousness, the fact that it's not something that's biblical.

And for a while, it took me a while, even when we first recorded our series with you, and now being here, I feel like I understand and grasp it a bit better. Again, is that what the New Age does is that they differentiate between Jesus and Christ.

So there was a point to where Jesus was just Jesus, but eventually he became Christ, and that was this sort of state of awareness that he was part of this divine all, or divine nature, or pantheism, depending on which worldview you're attesting to.

So what you notice is that, again, that's refuted, because Christ really is just the Greek for anointed one, and there's only one person that's ever referred to in the Bible as Christ, and that's Jesus of Nazareth.

And then also John the Baptist said, I am not the Christ. And Jesus said, there's no one, not a more righteous man on the earth, essentially, than John the Baptist. So when you look at that, if everyone has Christ in them, why would John the Baptist say, I'm not the Christ?

So the point in being is that you're looking at fundamental, can Christians use the Enneagram? What's the fundamental basic Christianity that all Christians believe and hold to the fundamental essential elements of the faith?

And that is the eternality of Christ. The fact that he was eternally God, he became fully God and fully man, the incarnation. This is basic, orthodox, fundamental Christianity for thousands of years. Richard Rohr fundamentally rejects that.

So if you go back, listen to the audio clip again, in light of what Marjorie just said and what we're saying. And again, don't take our word for it. Listen to what Richard says about Christ and listen to what we're saying and then ultimately take it to the word of God.

But then ask, again, like we said, is this tool that has been quote unquote Christianized, that's now being popularized in Christian churches, that has occultic origins and now has been quote unquote Christianized by someone who fundamentally denies the basic fundamentals of the deity of Jesus?

That's something we'd really implore you to consider.

Yeah, and I think it's really important to think about this too. Marjorie was talking about contemplative prayer, right? This process of unlearning. Well, this is what the Bible says about scripture. It says in 2 Timothy 3, 16 through 17, all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What need is there for contemplative prayer? And my question for you, Marsha, too, because I think this is extremely important in terms of Richard Rohr's worldview, what does he make of the word of God, right?

What's the Bible to him?

Oh yes, yes, I can explain that a little bit. He believes that there have been cycles for humanity that humanity has gone through, evolving cycles. And so originally, man was at this very low level, very basic kind of primitive survival level.

These are, there's like seven levels. He adopts this from Ken Wilber's Spiral Dynamics. And let me just say something about Ken Wilber real quick, because he's a very important behind-the-scenes figure that probably most Christians never have heard of him, except I've been posting about him a lot.

But he's still not very well known. Ken Wilber is not a Christian, does not claim to be a Christian. He is a perennialist. He believes that all religions come from the same core and all have the same God or divine reality.

And of course, Rohr is a perennialist, too. That's something else that maybe I'll talk about a little bit later.

Of course, yeah.

But Ken Wilber and Richard Rohr are friends. And Ken Wilber also has influenced Rob Bell and Brian McLaren and some other people who we call the progressives. And so Richard Rohr and Ken Wilber and all these progressives are all kind of in this thing together.

And so Spiral Dynamics is Ken Wilber's view of the evolution of man. And so you start off in this primitive level, and then it goes up a little bit, and then it goes up a little more, and then it gets reaches like what they call the intellectual level and the scientific level.

And then you're going up again and again, and the highest level is the non-dual level. That's what Ken Wilber teaches, and that's what Richard Rohr believes. So Richard Rohr believes that the Old Testament, for example, a lot of the Old Testament and the earlier part of it was written when man was at these earlier stages.

And so his understanding of who God is and what life is about is on those lower levels. They didn't have the full understanding or picture. And so more time had to go by, and then you get to even the gospel writers were still back there, and they weren't up on a higher level.

And then you have, he does think Paul and John saw that Jesus was really here in order to bring the universal Christ into being. And so that's how he sees it. So the way he would put it is, well, yes, you have all that war-like stuff in the Old Testament where they're going to war against the Canaanites, and they're having all these battles.

And that's because at that time there was this very war-like imagery. Mankind thought he had to go to battle and had to fight his enemies, et cetera, et cetera. So he'll explain it that way. So if you look at the Bible in this evolutionary view, then you can look at a lot of parts of the Bible as something that's limited in its understanding.

And it didn't really understand the true God or even in the New Testament, the first part of it, who Jesus really was. So that's more or less how he rationalizes what the Bible says.

Hmm.

No, that's really good. And in fact, one of the quotes that I saw that Andrew handed over to me, we're sharing a book here today, which is, by the way, Richard Rohr and the Enneagram Seer, which you help write that.

And it's a great and fantastic read. And we'll have it definitely hanging everywhere. In the very end, we'll have an offer for anyone who wants to get that book. Really great resource. We'll be talking about that in a little bit.

But this is a quote on page 74 in regards to Rohr's view of the Bible. And he says this, he says, just as the Bible takes us through many stages of consciousness and history, it takes us individually a long time to move beyond our need to be dualistic, eternal, accusatory, fearful, blaming, egocentric, and earning to see as Jesus sees.

And in fact, what even better explains his view of the Bible, and again, you want to ask too, this is the person who brought the Enneagram, something that had a cultic origins through automatic writing via spirit contact, which God says, don't do.

This is an abomination. But this is another quote of how does Richard view the Bible? And you got to ask yourself, is this fundamentally Christian? He says, quote, The Bible is an anthology of many books.

It is a record of people's experience of God's self-revelation. It is an account of our every human experience of the divine intrusion into history. The book did not fall from heaven in a pretty package.

It was written by people trying to listen to God. I believe that was the spirit, that the spirit was guiding and listening the writing process. We must know that humans always see through a glass darkly, and that all knowledge isn't perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah, see like this one big issue for anyone who's listening to, in terms of the Enneagram, can you hear a theme here? One of the biggest themes is this is a very, the Enneagram is a man-centered thing, right?

Panentheism in itself is also a man-centered view of God. This spiral dynamics from Ken Wilber, if you think about it, literally it is a man-centered way to view history. It all has to revolve around this coming into the truth, right?

Not essentially all history revolving around Christ, like the Bible makes very clear that Paul is talking about in the book of Colossians. He says that there was a mystery hidden throughout ages and generations, but has now been revealed to the saints, which is Christ in you, in the terms of Jesus.

So all of the Bible's central aspect and focus is about God, not about man. This is a very man-centered way to view everything, essentially.

Absolutely, and one of the things to also notice, too, is that when you look at the evidence that's put forth, as far as the Bible, when we talk about this is a reliable collection of historical documents, but then you talk about all the authors, well, that's a good, in many ways, I like that apologetic, but it's just important to realize and to think that someone's going to view the evidence ultimately through the lens, their worldview in which they see it.

So it does make perfect sense, Marsha, if Richard Rohr has a view of mankind evolving to a higher level of consciousness continually throughout history, it would make more sense that someone like Moses versus it was at a very much lower level of consciousness than the Apostle Paul, right?

So it does make sense about that. Go ahead.

Yeah, no, that's true. And so this evolutionary view dominates the way that he sees things, the way he sees history, the way he sees the Bible, the way he sees Christianity, it just really dominates, that's just very much a part of his worldview.

And he, along with the perennialism, which is another big part of it. And so, and since he's the man, just to kind of reiterate, maybe what we talked about in part one, he is the main reason the Enneagram got into the church and the first two books were written by his disciples.

He had mentored Suzanne Stabile, who wrote, throwback to you, with Ian Cron, who was a very close associate of Richard Rohr. And then the sacred Enneagram, which came out the next year, was by Chris Horace.

And he was mentored by Richard Rohr, plus he had three New Age teachers. And so those are the first two books that impacted the church and opened the door for the Enneagram. And you have very unbiblical ideas.

I recently did a Facebook post on all the red flags I saw in chapter one of the Road Back to You. And I said, these should not have been missed, especially by pastors. And I said, I don't understand how some of these red flags weren't missed.

And I go through them one by one and list them. And some of them, I don't expect some people to really have caught on what was being said. So I explain it. Some of them are more blatant. And to me, it's very disturbing that this book, which does not, it doesn't ring like a Christian book to me when I read through it, was accepted as a Christian book.

And therefore, that made the Enneagram Christian, because this was a Christian book, it was published by a Christian publisher, you know, into Varsity Press. And then Zondervan did Chris Hurt's book. Now that they've put out so many books, I think my co-author Don Vino has counted, over 28 titles have come out on the Enneagram for Christians.

These are the Christian Enneagram books. I can't even keep up with them anymore. And there was only one in 2016. And now there's at least 28, and I can't, I just did a post on another one today. I can't even keep up with them anymore.

I said in an earlier program, I said it's like the tiger has been let out of its cage, and it is running amok in the church.

Right, and a lot of times, I mean, you think about having discernment, the discernment that Christians should be having, but it seems that discernment and protecting the flock and the body has been replaced with supply and demand.

That there's this huge hunger and demand for this. So let's just pump out as many books. It reminds me of the early, you know, I'm 39 and I think about the books like the Prayer of Jabez that was around 2000 that came out by, I can't remember his name.

Was it something Wilkerson? And it was basically a verse out of context that said, you pray this prayer and this will bring all these blessings upon me. It was very like law of attraction. It was hugely popular.

There are Prayer of Jabez journals, there are Prayer of Jabez, like you name it. It was like Prayer of Jabez jewelry, t-shirts, like the whole nine yards.

Like Jesus Calling.

Yeah, yeah, and so you see these things that are huge sellers, but then when you look at it about where the origins come from, and even Sarah Young, when you look at how she wrote Jesus Calling, that's not the Jesus of the Bible.

Right.

And I realized that too, I had no idea what it was. And so a lot of times, my point is a lot of times when it comes to the industrial Christianity literature complex, there's not an aspect of, is this really spiritually healthy?

Is this really spiritually dangerous for someone versus how profitable is this going to be? And it just seems to be, while some of it, I don't know, some people may be good intentions, but there is a dangerous aspect too of the commercialized Christianity literature book industrial complex of just getting the stuff out of as long as people will buy versus actually like thinking in their best interest.

But anyways, go ahead.

Yeah, you know, thinking about in terms of how the Bible is viewed, it seems to me in this worldview that Richard Rohr has that the immutability of God is totally diminished, right? And the cohesive view of scripture that the Holy Spirit, since it's authored by God, the cohesion isn't there.

You know, it says in Numbers 23, 19, God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should change his mind. There is no evolution of consciousness going on in the Bible, right? We can't just throw away the book of Exodus or the book of Leviticus.

This is spiritually relevant to today, right? God does not change. And I think we can rely on that. And if you actually, you know, butcher that like Richard Rohr does, you actually have nothing, no standard to actually rely on to discern between what is right and even wrong.

And I think that would even bleed into how Richard Rohr would probably view sin, the atonement, resurrection and salvation. How does he view those things, Marcia?

Sin, Atonement, Resurrection, and Salvation

Yeah, that's another important area. He does not think sin is an issue. I haven't heard him actually come out and he doesn't deny it. He likes to focus on something else instead of sin that I'll say in a minute, but sin to him in his book, The Universal Christ, he said it was an act that was committed a long time ago between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

That's what he says. So it was committed a long time ago, you know, reference to Adam and Eve. And kind of like, well, it was so long ago, you know, and really it doesn't have an impact on us because he believes since we are all part of creation and we're in creation and creation is the incarnation of Christ, then we are in Christ.

And he believes that that divine DNA, we have a self, the true self that has never been separated from God. So if you have a self that's never been separated from God, you don't need salvation. There's no need for reconciliation because sin hasn't separated you from God.

So he doesn't believe there's a need for salvation or redemption. He doesn't believe Jesus died for sins. He absolutely, you know, rejects that. So there you have a completely different view of the cross.

And he says things like Jesus died on a cross because the Romans, you know, hated him and they were a violent empire. Jesus died. I think he said Jesus died to show love, but he's also said, well, the cross is a, reality has a cruciform shape.

And he also thinks in terms of archetypes. This is another important thing. I think I had another point there at the beginning what I said I was gonna get into and I've already forgotten what it was.

That's right.

I was like, okay, I wanna say something about that later. Oh, I just remembered.

Perennialism.

No, I can't remember. Okay, let me go on with this. So this is what happens when I do these things because everything's so bundled together. It's hard. You start off on one thing and it leads you to like 10 other things.

He is a big fan and follower of Carl Jung.

Okay.

And so he sees things in archetypes. Carl Jung is famous for his archetypes, which are supposedly these images that all of us have. There's a collective unconscious of humanity that we all share and tap into.

It's kind of like a big giant, think of it as this big giant consciousness out there. And we all are connected to it. And these archetypes are in that big collective unconscious. And an archetype is like the mother, the fool, the lover, the teacher, the martyr.

It's these kind of iconic figures you find in literature and history and stuff. And so you've got the savior or the redeemer and the martyr. And so one of the views of people who follow Jungian thinking on Jesus is Jesus was like an archetype.

He was a real person, but he identified with this archetype. And I read somewhere recently and put it in an article that what, I think this is my article on David Benner, who is another person. I wish, I don't know if we'll have time to talk about him, but he teaches, he's a master teacher at Warwick School and he's a perennialist and his books are read in Bible colleges and in seminaries.

So he's a really important person to talk about. And he also supports the Enneagram, although I don't think he teaches it. But I heard, I think, in fact, in the video we played today, I didn't Richard Rohr say something about the archetypal Christ?

I think he used the phrase archetypal Christ.

He did, he did.

Yeah, yeah. And so there's this idea that Jesus recognized he was fulfilling this archetype. He recognized that, or that he could fulfill this archetype of the martyr and whatever else they think the archetype is.

And so he lived it out. He lived it out so he could live out this archetype for humanity, because humanity needs to see the archetypes lived out. And this, you know, this is all going back to Jung's very messed up pagan thinking.

And I tell people, you know, Jung wasn't really teaching psychology so much as he was teaching a spirituality.