November 5, 2020 Show with Eric Hovind on “Is Atheism on the Rise in America?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday

on this fifth day of November 2020.

And I'm thrilled to have, for the very first time ever, Eric Hovind as my guest today.

He is president and founder of Creation Today, and we are going to be addressing the theme, Is

Atheism on the Rise in America?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you, for the very first time, to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Eric Hovind.

Hey, Chris, I think we both know and everybody...

And somebody that is a mutual friend of both Eric's and mine, that our listeners, well, many of

our listeners are sure to be familiar with, that is Sy Ten Bruggengate,

one of the four...

Don't say that, don't say that publicly.

I don't like to admit that publicly.

Come on now, Chris.

I don't know if

we'll talk about that

later, but boy, that was

a good...

Yes, he is one of the foremost presuppositionalist apologists,

especially actively involved in debates in the world, really.

Obviously, there have been much more famous folks who have written things like Cornelius Van Til and others,

but Sy is certainly the one in the trenches today, doing a lot of the

debating and engaging unbelievers, and even believers alike, who disagree

with the presuppositional approach to apologetics.

But he's a dear brother, and a very humble brother, and I'm giving him a shout out now.

I hope you're listening, Sy.

Tell our listeners about Creation Today.

Wow,

they

wrote a

book today in

prison, got out and started with the same name as his old one.

I get to be

the

president

of

this

incredible...

You simply buy somebody a cup of coffee...

Great, well, I guess you can't do that with a Mormon, though, can you?

We have our limits, but I did buy whyaboutyourmeal .com, whyaboutyourdrink .com, well, I

got about 30 different websites like that, that I'd love to develop over time.

Well, I'm sure especially our Presbyterian and Lutheran listeners will love the

whyaboutyourdrink .com.

I did buy whyaboutyourbeer .com, just to make sure a beer company didn't buy that one and use it

against what I'm trying to do.

Well, if anybody is interested in finding out more about Creation Today, you go to

creationtoday .org, creationtoday .org, and I am going to

be repeating that, God willing, throughout the broadcast, so I wanted to make

sure that I got that in there right now before I forget.

But as we do, as a tradition here, whenever we have a first

-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, what kind of

religious atmosphere you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you.

And you already hinted at your upbringing, but if you can give us more detail on that.

Well, my dad being a pastor, Jeff

Redlin,

the church, rather than having a relationship with God,

it's huge.

You know, the unsaved have a desire for a bath.

I realized it was actually through Ray Comfort's

Men

for What it Really Was.

I was in my 20s.

I had already been traveling and preaching, you know, grew up, you know, going to camps, going to speak at camps, work at camps,

and it was in my 20s, early 20s, that I heard hell's best -kept secret.

I listened to that message and I went, oh my goodness, this has some big, giant implications.

I listened to the message again and I went, oh my goodness, I called my brother -in -law, said, you got to come hear this with me.

He came over that same

night on my living

room floor

that I had become a prophet.

My desire for righteousness was really a desire for popularity and a desire not to hurt

mom and dad and parents.

I got that, that God

saw my sin.

Well, praise God.

Brother Ray has been on this program.

I just wish that we could get a longer interview out of him.

He typically is only on for about 15 minutes when he comes on, which is a record for the shortest interview on I Am

Jefferson Sign Radio.

That's so funny because that is him.

He is super just ADD.

He doesn't like, great, that's really cool.

How long is the interview?

Two hours.

I'm going, two hours of the interview?

Seriously?

Well, with the commercial breaks, it's really about 95 minutes.

Okay, well, I got a confession.

Well, if anybody has any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail

.com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastor over something that we're going to say today, which actually would surprise me because

we're speaking about atheism.

But perhaps you have a close family member that's an atheist.

Perhaps your spouse is an atheist or whatever the case may be, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity.

We understand that, and you can remain anonymous.

But if it's not a personal and private question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Now, if you wouldn't mind, and this is up to you, you could say, I'll pass on that.

But since you brought it up, you said your dad was in prison for a while.

Why don't you explain that if you can, if you desire to, just so our listeners,

since you kind of pulled that rabbit out of the hat, if you will, why don't you just explain a little bit about that?

My dad was,

he was

discharged

correctly.

I think they kind of got him on something they should not have

gotten him on

for $10 ,000.

My mom and dad went to more

than $9 ,000

to get into that

and bringing him back and

actually

doing this

and said,.

You know what?

I decided to try to focus on other battles

and not focus on that, but that's.

Yeah, and I think if I'm not mistaken, one of the things as far as what you teach

that you have changed from your dad's legacy is that he

was, and perhaps is, a King James onlyist and you are not.

Well, he would

say that

Steven Anderson

have a King James Bible, you really can't even get

saved.

And I was like, wow, I don't speak English.

This is really bad for you and your head.

So yeah, I put that up as a,

I don't even get into it.

It's not something I take a stand on.

So am

I not

a King

James

act, even though it's a small

minority?

Okay,

well, is,.

Let me ask you right off the bat, is atheism on the rise in America?

His attention and

look at the actual data and say, I

think

there's

lack of

evidence.

I'm not saying he doesn't.

I just don't, well, that's agnosticism

on a regular basis.

Yes, even Bill Maher, the very notorious anti

-Christian comedian and talk host, he has said, I

don't know if he's changed his rhetoric, but he has said that he is an agnostic because if you claim to be an atheist,

you would have to claim to have all knowledge.

And logically he's

hitting

the

nail

on the head.

You cannot be that intellectually and logically you can't be an atheist.

There's, if atheism is true, then atheists

don't, atheism.

I mean, and you think about it, why does this next generation, they want to be known as the none.

I, that's what's real.

I'm just going to.

Yes, you can.

You can be yourself as if we're just hanging out in the living room at the coffee table.

Well,

then I,

you

see such hypocrisy, such division.

When you see so much arguing in what looks like hatred and vitriol,

who would want to be a part of that?

Even if it was true, if I'm being honest, I'd say

my heart goes out to them.

Now, the other side of that coin is even though my heart goes out to them,

that position, it doesn't mean that that's a valid or a tenable.

I mean, you got to think about it.

And this is what the nones realize.

The reason they want to be none, if atheism is true, you

got to think about the tenets of atheism.

You know, now there's

no chemical reactions

taking place.

He was going through cancer and to

his body, as he goes through the chemo.

Hitchens said, I don't have a body

being consistent with what, I'm just molecules in motion.

What are you talking

about?

I'm not, I'm just molecules.

There's no me inside of this.

It's reality.

That doesn't match

a choice or a chemical reaction.

Vinegar and baking soda.

It's going to have a reaction.

There's nothing you can do.

Molecules in motion.

There's really nothing you can do.

They're not accepting atheism because

that's not

consistent.

There's no way this could happen.

And you look at

that and you go, there's just no way it doesn't work.

I

think

what

they're doing

things, the God that's against science, you know, you can't believe in God and science.

You know, there's that famous guy who's writing on a science chalkboard and they say, well, we don't know.

God must've done it.

So it's just kind of a God of the gaps type thing

where the big bad happened

or suffering happened or I got emotional trauma and therefore God doesn't.

So I think what they're really rejecting are the gods that don't, really rejecting that.

And we need to introduce them to the one true God of the Bible.

I don't know.

What do you think about that?

Yeah.

I mean, I see a lot of validity in that.

And also I would throw in there

that people, if they are not regenerate, if they are devoid of

the Holy Spirit, they don't have a conscience

that oppresses them with guilt.

They are going to follow what the world thinks about that.

And the world, not all of the world, but a very significant

segment of the world and perhaps even, especially with the youth, there is a craving, there is an

idolatry of being hip, being sophisticated, being cool.

There is a disdain for the idea that you're being tricked.

And I know that a lot of young people view any kind of

religion as something that is a trick.

They don't want to have the wool pulled over their eyes.

But of course, going back to the original

concept about atheism, doesn't Romans 1 teach us that there really are no atheists?

Yeah.

Nobody gets...

At the end of the day, if you legitimately did not...

I mean, you got to give it to somebody.

If they truly didn't...

Hey, you know what?

You guys really...

on your spirit.

You know me.

You have

eyes to see

clear.

And I think it...

What do you have to have?

A ball, the truth.

They want to do what they want to do.

In the next verse, I

can apply

to everything.

The laws of science, the laws of logic,

nobody gets to use that excuse.

And then it says, because the

creator

of the

universe,

the judge of all ideas that

you didn't know and you're hiding it, you're suppressing it.

Well, we have to get to our very first break.

And as I said before, if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and

private matter.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Eric Hovind and more of our discussion of his atheism on the

rise in America today.

Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Trump and Zion Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris.

I always enjoy our time.

You have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30,

more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment.

How much do I owe you for that?

You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape.

I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Trump and Zion Radio airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Lawrence.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Eric Hovind.

And by the way, Eric, am I pronouncing your last name correctly?

Eric Hovind.

Of those that actually write.

Chris Lawrence.

Well, it is phonetically spelled.

But one of the things that, this may sound really strange, but when I hear somebody say

that people who openly admit to being atheists are on the rise in

America, there is something actually refreshing about that because

when I hear statistical information about the majority of people in the United States being Christian and

things like that, even when I hear about the statistics of those who profess to be born again,

that makes me more depressed because I know that multitudes, if not the majority of those people, are

deceived or lying because there's no way our country could possibly be

dominated by regenerate people.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Eric Hovind.

Oh boy.

Now you know where you really stand before God.

Maybe this is what needs to lead up to another great awakening where people will realize

their sin before God.

Maybe I take that too far.

We do have an anonymous listener who says, my heart breaks that all of

my children are not believers, although a couple of them out of six

appear to be getting drawn by God to Him.

One of the things that I feel so helpless and inadequate about when I'm having

conversations with my unbelieving children is that they will bring up subjects outside of the

Bible that I have no knowledge of and no ability to counteract.

They will bring up things regarding science or technology.

They will bring up all sorts of subjects, obviously, to derail the subject away

from hell and their spiritual need.

But their attempts to get me tongue -tied to prove that I know what I am talking about can be

very frustrating and quite frankly can be infuriating.

Do you have any advice about how to keep your children or anyone to whom you are having a

conversation who is in opposition to the Christian faith, to keep them on the

track rather than chasing all these different conversations that they

want to bring up?

My heartbreak,

everything that I've been

talking

about

today is in a

Jesus degree.

As I think of the different

of them on the ground,

you wouldn't believe your or

I'll tell you this,

God's grace and God's grace alone.

Be that now.

Be the parent that says, man, I love you no matter what.

I've got a Christ -like love for you.

And man, I love these conversations.

I'm not going to get mad at you for thinking.

I'm not going to get mad at you for having an opinion or having done some research.

I want the truth.

I

think

the Socratics and the

Bible

and

then

listen

to

them

about what you've done wrong in the past.

So when I mess up, I want them to know I'm a human.

Don't put me on a pedestal with God.

I am imperfect and I'm going to prove that by apologizing when I mess up and just going to them and saying, I'm sorry.

It's great when they're, you know, the kids get to middle school and

high school finding out what they think and why they think it.

And I'd say even before middle school, well, why do you think that?

Well, what objections are there to that?

You know, where, when, why question.

Okay, how am I going to answer this for the audience?

How am I going to help my audience?

And that's the question

to me the other day.

Well, just to get an idea, and it's a huge youth group.

It's got about 300 kids and I'm going, God, I want to reach these young people.

I know 70 % of these are going to walk away from this church in just a couple of years.

How do I give me insight?

Give me wisdom to reach these young people.

So for example, somebody gave me a question about creation evolution.

And Eric, what do you think about that?

Man, I just boom, boom.

But one of the questions,

nobody questioned,

nobody questioned

and is a loving judge.

Simple answers out there.

And so my heart

goes out to you.

So we have to go our middle break, Eric, and you can pick up where you left off if you'd like when we return.

This is the normal, the longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio in Lake City,

Florida, requires of us a break, a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to

localize Iron Trap and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida as a requirement of the FCC

so that they have to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize

this program to their area.

So while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials.

And I would ask you please to make a wise use of this time by writing down as much of the

information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully

patronize our advertisers.

Because in doing so, you're going to keep them happy and they're going to want to most likely remain our advertisers,

which means subsequently, we, God willing, will remain on the air for a longer future because we absolutely

depend on the finances provided by our advertisers to exist as a program.

So please try to respond to our advertisers as much as you can.

And to further ensure you do that, write down the information that they provide.

Also write down information for Eric Hovind on how to approach atheists, on

how to use creation, and the fact of an intelligent designer being

God himself when you're having these conversations with those who reject the Christian faith.

Well, write down those questions and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day.

To talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always

been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist.

Church of Coram.

For their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

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historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of

scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the Bible's reliability,

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The collection includes a complete 11th century Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org today.

Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Lindbergh Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbergh, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more.

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving.

Our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbergh Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Lindbergh Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit Lindberghbaptist .org.

That's Lindberghbaptist .org.

When Iron Trump and Zion Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience have been

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people.

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We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

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need all over the country and around the world.

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

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That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -833 -8333.

996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books.

For all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com That's Solid

-Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you

can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, Solid -Ground -Books .com is a vital sponsor

of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Without their financial support, we would likely not exist, barring a miracle from God.

So, if you want us to stick around, then you should want Solid Ground Christian Books to stick around.

And therefore, go to Solid -Ground -Books .com as frequently as you can and make

purchases as generously as you can, not only to replenish your own library and for your own

self -edification, but also to bless the lives of others with special gifts

that you purchase from Solid -Ground -Books .com.

And remember folks, don't only purchase books for your brothers and sisters in Christ

from Solid -Ground -Books .com.

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always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before we return to our discussion with Eric Hoven on is there a rise

of atheism in America today, I just want to make some very important

announcements.

First of all, on November 7th, the Creation Basic Training

Conference is going to be held at the Master's Church of Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

And this creation seminar features Mike Riddle and Dr. Anthony

Silvestro.

And the fine folks that are striving for eternity ministries are the ones that

actually have orchestrated this event.

If you have listened to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio long enough, you know that my

dear friend Andrew Rappaport has been on this program and he is the founder of

Striving for Eternity Ministries and is running this conference, Creation

Basic Training Conference, that's November 7th from 8 .30 a .m. to 5 .30 p .m.

And if you want more information on this conference, go to themasterschurch .org

forward slash creation training.

That's themasterschurch .org forward slash creation training.

And I also advise you to visit the website of Striving for Eternity Ministries.

That's strivingforeternity .org strivingforeternity .org.

You will thank me later that you did.

Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you, please, to go to

ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card when doing so.

If you prefer mailing in checks the old -fashioned way via snail mail, there will be an address that appears on your

screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Also, if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is that you want to promote is compatible

with what I believe, then we would love for you to launch an ad campaign with us as soon as possible

because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.

Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And folks, we're really hurting bad here financially, so I'm asking you, please,

if you have money that you have available for benevolent purposes,

if you have extra money above and beyond the money that you need to provide for your church

and to provide for your family because those are the two priorities in your life with your finances,

providing for your church and your family, those are commands of scripture.

But if you have been blessed financially above and beyond those commands and you love the

show and you don't want it to disappear, I'm asking you, please, to help us.

I know that there are tens of thousands of people that download this program every month,

and yet we are getting a tiny trickle, a handful of donations that come in every month.

And I really thank, from the bottom of my heart, those who generously give every month.

Even though it is a small number of people, I thank you more than I can even describe in the English language.

But I'm urging, especially those that have never given but listened to this program and love it, please help us.

We are in a real desperate situation financially.

So if you want us to remain on the air, go to irontreppanzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate

now.

Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church that's biblically sound,

theologically accurate, and you don't know where to turn, you don't know where to go, well, I have lists of biblically

faithful churches all over the planet Earth, and I may be able to help you.

No matter where on the globe you live, I may be able to help you find a church.

I've helped many people in our audience find churches that they didn't even know existed, sometimes right

around the corner from them.

So if you are in that position, or if you have a loved one in that position, or if you're going on vacation somewhere and you want to visit

a good, strong, biblically solid church, then send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Eric Hovind, and our

subject at hand is, is atheism on the rise in America today.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And Eric, I'm assuming you're still with us.

I am still here.

And Eric, one of the things that I wanted to bring up, since you mentioned

young people might question their parents or any

Christian that may tell them that any sex

outside of marriage between a man and a woman, which is the only definition of

marriage, any sex, and that would include homosexuality, is

a wicked and damnable sin.

And they may object, well, why can't Bill and Tom marry each other?

They love each other, you know, and they don't understand why there would be a restriction

against that.

It's kind of an interesting phenomenon because I'm assuming that it was probably very much the same

when you were young.

When I was a kid, kids instinctively knew that there was something

bizarre and very wrong about homosexuality.

And I'm not saying that we would be better off if young

people were vicious and cruel towards people who are involved in that sin.

And of course, never to enact physical violence on them or anything like that.

But there is something to be said, I believe, that

as far as the merits of the way things used to be, there was a shame

involved in this sin.

There was something to be embarrassed about.

There was a reason why people were in the closet.

It's because they knew that there was something wrong with it, that it's not something that you would

brag about, that you would flaunt, that you would parade in public.

Now, you are a hero if you're involved in this behavior.

You may even be considered a celebrity amongst the other young people in the

neighborhood or at the school.

Because I can even remember in college, there were a lot of my

female friends who loved to hang out with the gay guys because they thought they were so funny and they were so

flamboyantly over -the -top effeminate and they just got a kick out of that.

But don't you think that the things have changed in some ways for the better?

You don't want a person who is involved in that activity being

tormented or beat up or something.

But at the same time, the whole concept of shame has gone.

Whatever that takes.

So with homosexuality, we know that's coming about because, well, hey, I don't want to do a

relationship with a woman.

I just want to get off and call that good.

And, man, let me do my thing and call it good.

And so

there's

an

incredible

perversion

of

homosexuals.

That just seems like a lot of work.

And I want a bunch of money.

And it just seems like you can get sued a lot easier.

Maybe I don't want all that money.

They just, they want enough to get by without throwing their

life at them.

But after

the reminder

who runs the

Love and

Truth

Network, who is a former homosexual who married a

former lesbian.

What's the name of that ministry?

Mean and getting them to realize there's a reason God does this.

Start thinking the longer

term people to think

because if you start planning,

it's hard to plan for your long term.

It's a great

job of

lying.

Okay.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, in your experience as an apologist and

interacting with the public, what do you find more challenging and difficult?

Interacting with an atheist or agnostic or somebody who is really deeply

rooted in a false religion?

I mean, it's like, of course, that is a false religion.

No matter what anybody says.

It is.

You're exactly right.

They'll say

it's and not

those that I think

you

actually

want.

At the end of the day, they're not as happy.

They're way more likely to commit suicide.

And they're discovering it's not because they're picked on, not because it's not culturally acceptable.

It's because it's a problem.

It's a brain problem.

It's literally a mind problem.

It's not satisfying.

It's not doing what they thought of life.

I'd be happy looking at the

science and the facts about that.

And

the data behind all of this saying,

We

have an

anonymous listener who says,.

I have just received the heartbreaking news very recently that one of my children

is a practicing homosexual.

And this person also claims to be someone who loves Jesus.

And I was wondering, how do you confront or contradict the

charges that we are actually disobeying Jesus by being unloving

toward homosexuals?

Because Jesus never said a word about the subject.

Well,

it's

called

love.

And you

do not love me.

If we disagree, does that mean I don't love you?

No, that doesn't mean that look like to

your

child who

says, Well, I love God, but I'm.

What does it look like?

Let's put it out an email.

Yes, speak the truth.

Sin brings death.

This is there's a reason

why God has physical death.

Physical continues to back that up, whether that's emotional, psychological

problems that

you're going

to

say,

God,

it's kind of one of the focuses of creation today.

It's all about me.

Christianity doesn't be happy.

And so we're on the topic.

It's clear from scripture.

You're sinning against yourself.

Anyway, it goes, I

guess I threw questions.

Hey, can I can I love you?

Agree with you is that you

love me, but you disagree with me.

I love you, even though I disagree with you.

And I want you to experience through them.

And I am going to just, I'll pray for you.

And if you're not open to having the conversations, I can't force that.

I mean, I don't know how old is that your child is, but no,

I'm open to these conversations.

I don't want to be like a lot of people have in the past and how the church has messed up in the past.

Done with you.

You know, you get out of here.

Like, no, that's not a loving thing either.

So what does it look like to be able to speak the truth and love at the same time?

And Chris, maybe you got better advice than I have there, but I would start right there.

Well, the only thing that jumps out at me is the common fallacy that people make.

That the words of Jesus Christ are more God -breathed or the

only God -breathed words in the scriptures and everything else was just the personal

opinion of the author of whatever book of the Bible that happens to be, which is absurd

because the only reason we believe that Jesus is who he said

he was is because the other scriptures point to him and the old covenant

scriptures prophesied him and he is the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies, etc.

So you can't just pick the words of Jesus alone as if the other

words of Christ's disciples who authored

parts of the canon and also the Old Testament saints, you can't view those other

writings as less binding, as less authoritative, another word

inspired is used a lot even though it's really expired.

It's God -breathed.

But I think people have to be corrected in the way that they even view the Bible and how they

view the words of Christ.

That's why many have objected to the red -letter

editions of the Bible because they may give some, they may give many,

a false understanding that these words are somehow more important.

Am I making sense?

I

think

that's

exactly

where

that is

all heading.

Right now it seems, at least in public, the majority of liberal pro

-homosexual people are abhorred by

the concept of pedophilia but I think that that is going to

quickly evaporate from their rules of things that are

taboo because if they are pushing this horrendous and satanic idea

that an eight -year -old child should be able to have surgery and hormones to change their gender, then if

they can make a decision like that, just like you said, they should be able to have sexual relations with whomever they want.

Yeah, if they're going to say the exact same thing, it's just simply,

what

is evil

exposes itself.

What we

are watching is how evil

prevails.

If

you're the

big hit, and then, hey, when that's a normality,

all you have to do now,

it's like all you have to do is sit back and be the evil one.

Be the one who takes it one step farther and you're going to make lots of money and you're always going to be in the news and you're going to be the

trendsetter.

You're going to be the popular one because you are pushing

somebody standing on the truth of the word of God with love, and I

think that

experientially is

true.

I mean, God doesn't write truth.

And of

course, Jesus defined marriage.

And he defined it as being between one man and one woman.

So, I think people know that

they're really playing games with others when they try to act as if Jesus never said anything about

this or Jesus was a Jew.

He was an obedient Jew.

He obeyed even the ceremonial laws which he, after his

death, were abrogated.

But while he was living on this earth as a human, he was a faithful

adherent to the Hebrew scriptures and they

clearly taught...

I mean, even homosexual apologists very often will claim that they can't get around

that the Old Testament was clear in its condemnation of homosexuality,

although some of them will say that that was just in reference to

prostitution and so on.

But...

When you think of Sodom and Gomorrah,

things against it...

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York,

who says, do you think, and from your experience with your conversations with atheists and

agnostics, that there is some sort of safety they think they have

in not committing to belief in God or Christianity specifically?

Because if they keep asking questions and trying to tie their opponents in knots,

they think that if that's the best God can send me, then he shouldn't be able to pour his wrath

on me later because I couldn't be convinced by the inept people that serve

him.

I think that listener has something quite on the money there, myself.

But what do you think?

Yeah,

so I will decide what's

intellectually

superior.

They want to consider themselves intellectually amazing.

And I've...

Yeah, they come off as...

Well, it seems...

And I've thought this myself as I have interacted with

even family members who are not Christian or who are...

They may claim to be a Christian, but they don't believe in clear teachings of the Bible like Jesus

is the only way to salvation and so on.

There is, I think, a false security and safety

that people have that if you are bringing them the gospel and you're

bringing them the teachings of the Bible, if you can't convince them

with a whole slew of questions that they throw at you and you can't answer

them adequately in their minds, that God...

They feel a safety because they don't think, as we all go back to Romans 1, that they really do believe God exists, but they

suppress that truth.

They don't think God's going to hold it against them.

Just like the man in Romans 9 who was totally baffled by

Paul thinking that God could hold a

person responsible for rejecting him because as Paul says that

the opponent will say, how can you find fault for who will resist his will?

You have these people who think that if God's messengers, meaning us,

are so inept and unable to convince them, they think that somehow God is not going to

hold them accountable on Judgment Day.

They are safe from hell because in their wisdom, all these questions that they've

thrown at Christians were unanswered.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but I think that's where the listener is coming from.

Yeah.

Yeah, certainly.

Anything you want.

They have this sense of security and I think I'd approach them with stories like that

online.

Did you hear about so -and -so?

Not this.

You know, God's not going to judge you because nobody smart enough has come along to...

But yet we've barely...

Of species of insects and animals around the planet and you

want to believe that all of that, you know, came about without...

Are you sure with our tiny bit of knowledge that we

can make this...

Yeah, we actually have to go to our final break right now.

So hold your...

I got one story I want to share.

Yeah, you can tell it when we get back.

And this is a much more brief break, folks.

So if you have any questions, send them in now.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Eric Holden right after these messages.

Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any

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Sir Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens

Iron radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Brandon Scalf of Cruciform Bible Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and the NASB is my Bible of

choice.

I'm Pastor Chris Hatton of Grace Chapel in Sanford, Florida, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Jack Wilke, Minister of the Forney Church of Christ in Forney, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Mike Wachowski of Westminster Chapel in Ballground, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of

choice.

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In West Boylston, Massachusetts,.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Brock Evans from Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York,

and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tom Lasser of Crestview Baptist Church in Big Spring, Texas, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net.

Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

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Welcome back.

And Eric, if you could, you had a story that you wanted to tell before we run out of time.

Please, let's hear that story.

It's a little analogy, and I don't, hopefully we got enough time, that the concept is

if you're doing something else

out of all the knowledge in the universe, out of all the knowledge in the universe, and don't jump to conclusions

because all the knowledge in the universe, draw a circle on the

piece of paper.

Say, how much knowledge do you think that you have?

And this is not the argument that says,

how much knowledge do you have?

If you don't know one millionth of it,

we have one percent of all the knowledge in the universe.

We think we've got one percent.

Is it possible that we do not have

in that 99 that

we think we've got?

Okay, if we think we've got this much, is it possible that out of all this darkness out there, all the unknown

think we've got?

And they'll say, yeah.

So you're telling me we could be wrong about

what you're telling me

is, if you could be wrong, we

don't really know anything, do we?

We don't really

have much relativism.

Logically speaking, it's actually true that if you could be wrong, that you don't.

You would have to have all knowledge.

You would have to know everything to claim even one percent of knowledge.

You just have to know

so either,

you just have

to know that, and

they say, yes, and it's,

we don't know anything.

Is,

Stephanie,

did

you

know there are some people out there that say we don't know anything at all?

How do they know that?

There is no, we don't know anything.

It's easy to point these things out.

Make sure you, just from

our website, but that's why

I have

the monthly

support today.

Say, I'm going to write a $5 check, and if you can do more, do more.

I'm, if you had 10 ,000 people do that, Chris, you could do this radio program all of next year.

Yeah.

So guys, why don't you do that and support what Chris is doing?

That's awesome.

No, seriously, today, stop what you're doing.

Get out your credit card.

Go to Iron Sharpens Iron and just punch in the numbers real quick.

It's not that hard.

Punch in the numbers, support what he's doing, and set him up for 2021 to keep having amazing guests on and bringing

you guys great content that you guys can use, so.

I really appreciate that.

And if folks want to find out more about Creation Today, go to that

website.

That's creationtoday .org, creationtoday .org.

I want to thank you so much, Eric, for being such a great guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.

Amen.