Rome's Trajectory, Response to Division and Debate Amongst the "Reformed"

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:08

Well greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line.

00:34

My name is James White and I have an echo going on here. There we go. I'm not sure how in the world that happened.

00:42

Oh stop. I'm not sure why you're doing that either. Where's the mute button?

00:48

There it is. Ta -da. I'm running it all myself today folks and we're having some issues and I'm having to play some games to make things work the way they're supposed to work and so we'll just see how all that ends up working when we get done working on it.

01:08

I sound like Kamala Harris. I do not want to sound like Kamala Harris.

01:16

You know, might as well start there. I get up in the morning and I see stuff and I read stuff and I just go, what has happened?

01:35

I remember a day when candidates for high office, president, senate, you know, a single bad interview could turn the entire race and, you know, one little exchange in a debate or something along those lines and I look at the situation we're facing right now and you see these, at least there's been some interviews, 60 minutes, it was actually semi -encouraging that anyone in the mainstream media was willing to ask a semi -serious question and to insist upon saying, well, actually illegal crossings have quadrupled under your, they say administration,

02:39

I say regime. You'll all be saying regime before long. Under your regime, we've had a flood of millions of people coming to this country.

02:55

So do you feel like, you know, I guess she actually said when someone asked her, is there anything you would do differently?

03:03

I can't think of anything. Wow. 9 % inflation and we all know that that's not even close to what it actually was and probably still is.

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But all this kind of stuff, the answers that she gave, even he can tell, are just, she can't give answers.

03:35

She cannot, this is the woman that is going to be representing the

03:40

United States. I mean, the last four years have been rough with Biden, but at least you can sit there and go, aw, they elected an

03:48

Alzheimer's patient. How sad. She doesn't have that excuse. She's just a plain old ditz.

03:55

She really is. I mean, she's an evil ditz, but she's a ditz. And it's like four years?

04:05

Can't anybody tell that the only, she even said in one of the interviews, you can't just be appointed as a candidate.

04:17

You have to earn it. It's like you've never earned a single vote. What are you talking about? Wow. It's just, and you just, you sit here and you go, uh, something is really, really wrong.

04:31

Now, obviously if we had journalists, if we had, you know, a press corps, um, you know, there are a few guys out there.

04:41

I enjoyed the, um, the thing today with a guy from Fox news, basically asking a question that all of us have been asking.

04:50

And that is, how come we have money to send to Lebanon, but we don't have money for our own people?

04:56

Oh, you know, how can any, oh, just, you know, storming out of the room and all this stuff.

05:02

Um, if I, you know, in years past, you'd have meaningful conversation about what a candidate was saying.

05:17

Um, and you can't do that anymore. There's she's, she, she's a word salad.

05:24

And let's not talk about Tim Walz. I mean, he's just a Chinese operative, um, in, you know, plain clothes, um, but also a complete bits.

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And when, when you see the Marxists putting ditzes forward, you know, they're not the ones in charge.

05:47

Um, the same people who have face planted this nation for the past four years are going to continue the face planting for the next four, uh, if they can pull it off.

05:59

And I'm afraid they probably will. Um, so last week

06:07

I, uh, and I've mentioned,

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I've, I explained this on, on Twitter because I think the one comment that I made had like either 400 or 700 comments in response to it.

06:22

So far more than I could see. And, uh, that looks better.

06:31

Um, it was during Trump's Butler appearance. Okay. Give the guy credit.

06:40

I don't know how many past candidates, if they had been hit by a bullet, um, in an assassination attempt that was obviously an inside job or a demonstration of a level of incompetence that hasn't been seen since Keystone cops.

07:04

Um, did y 'all notice the sloped roof had plenty of cops on it this time? Uh, well at least that person, um, is no longer employed, um, appropriately.

07:18

So, um, but give him credit.

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Look, I've said a lot of negative things about Donald Trump. It is since 2016,

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I have said that his candidacy is an indication of the corruption of our nation, um, and the corruption of the political system.

07:50

Uh, vast majority of Republicans are grossly compromised, uh, politically, financially.

08:01

Um, it's, it's a given for the Democrats. I'm not even talking about them. And, you know, that's why

08:07

I became an independent, oh, 20, 25 years ago, at least, uh, because the

08:12

Republicans were giving money to people who, uh, to pro -choice Republicans. I'm like,

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I'm not giving money. I'm not going to be a part of a party that's going to do that. So I've been independent ever since then.

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And I've said a lot of negative things about, uh, Donald Trump. I do not consider him qualified.

08:31

Um, he, he does not have the temperament, um, worldview, background, knowledge, uh,

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I think to handle the challenges that we face today. The only reason that I am truly praying he wins is because the other choice is,

08:57

I believe, the end of the United States as we know it. I don't believe there'll be a free election in 2028.

09:04

Uh, if the cackling communist, uh, wins in 2024,

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I really don't. I mean, there'll be an election just like their elections in Russia and China and North Korea and Cuba.

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And they all have elections, but they're, they have elections in California too, but they're not actually elections.

09:28

It's a one party system in California. And if this election goes the way that I fear that it will, um, we'll have a one party situation in the

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United States and it will stay that way. Uh, cause once you have all the power, then you can corrupt the system and make sure that you can hold on to it.

09:48

So I am not a Trump fan. Um, there are so many disqualifying things about him that would have been disqualifying 15 years ago.

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But when you're facing, um, the sock puppet

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Marxist, all of a sudden you look pretty good. And that's the situation that we're facing right now.

10:15

So you gotta give him, you gotta give him credit. Um, he went back only, what was it?

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How many weeks? I forget how many weeks ago it was. I was, I was doing something with the

10:27

RV. I was getting food or something for the next trip or something, or just come back. I forget what it was, but, um, give him credit.

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That's a pretty amazing thing to do. Pretty gutsy. Uh, all that's great, fine and wonderful.

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Uh, doesn't mean that you're really actually temperamentally and mentally, um, and personally fit to be the best person, uh, to deal with the amazing things going on in the world and things like that.

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I think economically he's not bad, even though, um, I, I think as a businessman, he's way too used to borrowing money and, um, didn't really help the deficit or anything like that.

11:13

But anyway, he goes back to Butler, Pennsylvania and I'm working on my outline for the debate in just a couple of weeks in Mobile, Alabama on a topic that will have relevance.

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Well, it has eternal relevance and I'll be debating a person who's converted to Roman Catholicism and he's defending the assertion that the only true way to worship

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God is in the sacrifice of the mass. And I have learned sadly over the past number of months that a lot of my reformed brethren will say that, oh yeah, you know, mass bad.

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And you can't read, you pick up any scholarly commentary on the

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Westminster confession of faith, on the London Baptist confession of faith, and you will be forced to have to learn

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Rome's dogmas concerning the sacrifice of the mass. Now has Rome changed since then?

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Yeah. I mean, she's moved farther and farther away in adopting the

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Marian dogmas, papal infallibility, Marian dogmas, specifically immaculate conception by the

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Assumption of Mary, which defined after the Reformation. And right now is in a state of flux because Francis, as we're going to be talking about here in a few minutes, is making fundamental changes that will change not only the direction of the church, but really requires you to change your interpretation of the history of the

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Roman Catholic Church itself as to what it has taught, if you're going to even try to claim that Rome is the infallible, you know, the

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Pope's infallible vicar of Christ, things like that. So anyway, so I'm working on this outline and I'm seeing stuff scrolling.

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I don't do Facebook. Well, I do do Facebook. I have to because everybody at Apologia does, but I don't do

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Instagram. I don't do TikTok. I've never, I don't think I've ever had, I know I've never had a TikTok account.

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I may have had an Instagram account like 12 years ago or something more than that because Strava used it to upload pictures.

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So it would upload pictures from my rides, but I don't use it anymore.

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So there's a lot of social media. I just don't have any presence on at all because I'm interested.

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Twitter X is what I use. That's how, if I'm going to have a conversation with somebody, if I'm going to announce something, it's going to be on Twitter.

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And so I'm seeing stuff, you know, clips from what's going on in Butler scrolling on my screen.

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And I run into a clip of Ave Maria playing and I was sort of looking at it and only a few days earlier,

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Trump had posted a prayer to Michael the Archangel. And I'm like, um, okay, uh,

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Michael the Archangel. What, where is this coming from? And so I'm doing other stuff.

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And so I see this and I go, I just type up a little thing that's going Ave Maria, prayers to Michael the

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Archangel. What's going on? It was a simple, honest question. Anybody who has some background knows that JD Vance, his vice presidential candidate, is a relatively recent,

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I think like 2019, which for us older folks is relatively recent, um, convert to Roman Catholicism.

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I've seen a picture of him and Scott Hahn. And if you know anything about Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholic apologetics and my own history,

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I've run into Scott Hahn before. We've done entire reviews of like Scott Hahn's book on Mary and, and, um, you know, uh, would like to be able to point you to debates

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Scott Hahn, but he won't touch that one with 10 foot pole. So anyway, the question was very honest question.

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What's going on? Um, where is this influence coming from? Is it coming from Vance?

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Is this just a political ploy, uh, to expand, you know,

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I don't understand it, but I think the liberal, which, you know, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's the way it is.

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And so, um, I'm like, what's going on?

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Well, I, uh, was once again reminded that the large majority of does not think they emote anymore.

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That is instead of looking at the question and recognizing it had two parts to it.

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You know, I mentioned specifically the Michael, the archangel thing. I'm like, what's, what's going on thinking people would go.

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Yeah. He's talking about some interesting stuff that Trump has done. I mean, you look, you look back,

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I don't remember any prayers to Michael or Ave Maria in 2016 or 2020. Do you may have happened and I missed it.

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It would have been helpful if someone let's say, let's say this is actually consistent with what he's done. Uh, that there's lots of been lots of Ave Maria's and stuff like that.

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And the, and, and again, I've written a book, uh, you know, uh, where'd it go?

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No, it's back there somewhere, uh, on the subject of Mary. Yeah. Mary, another redeemer right there. And I've debated this subject and it's, there's at least a full chapter in the

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Roman Catholic controversy. And it, my, my position on Mary, um, long established.

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So I recognize some reason, I don't know why my tweet went outside of the normal avenues of people that I would normally be talking to.

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Um, but it did. And so a lot of folks were like, it's a beautiful song.

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And I had to explain to this one lady, uh, I did try to engage with folks and I'm like, well, it's beautiful.

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And I'm like, well, I, I think that that beauty requires a little bit more thought than just simply the pleasing sounds.

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I, I think what the words mean and what it's intended to convey as a

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Christian is rather important. And if you have a piece of music and its primary intention is to promote idolatry, uh, it can be very pleasing to the ears, but I don't think that means that I'm going to identify it as beautiful.

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Oh, I just, that just so limiting. Okay. Um, yeah, the scripture can be limiting.

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Um, you know, I'm sure this is be somebody who would say, Hey, any kind of worship is, you know, God does this thing is great.

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You know, that's fine. Wonderful. Anyway, I did try to reason with at least some of the people, uh, that, that responded and it was, it was depressing.

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The emotional logic, rationality, you know, modus ponens, modus totals, law of non -contradiction, anything like that?

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No, no. It's such a small portion of the

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American populace would have any idea about the formal rules of logic, reason, anything like that.

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Um, it, by the way, there's a great book on that by Jason Lyle that I would recommend to you.

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You can get it from biblical science institute .com. I don't mind promoting Jason.

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He's, um, a gift to the church. He truly is. And, uh, without a doubt, most intelligent person

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I've ever met. So, uh, but he's written a book on logic that you can use your kids homeschooling.

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Um, I certainly hope that my grandkids, I know I've given them the book, whether they're using it or not,

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I don't know. I haven't asked, but anyway, uh, that kind of, that kind of thinking logically and rationally vast majority of the populace.

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That's why should we do that? What, what, what's the, what's the advantage to that? And that's, um, it says a lot because if, if we were actually thinking logically and rationally, this wouldn't even be an election season.

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Um, this woman would, would, would not get 5 million votes, but that's not where we are anymore.

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And that says a whole lot about, about the nation. And so the, the, the kickback that I got, the pushback that I got for asking a simple question, 98 % of the people did not even, were not even capable of understanding what the question was or showed any interest in knowing what the question was.

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There is one, I think one guy that responded rationally.

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It could be this could be that, you know, think about this. And I was like, yeah, that's what I was looking for. But especially when it comes to Mary, oh my goodness, don't even make the attempt.

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Don't even make the attempt. It was, um, a sad and rather depressing, um, experience to, to see the kind of nastiness, uh, that, um, came, came my direction for asking a simple, a simple question like that.

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But that's, that's what we're up against. Speaking of which, um,

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I was blocked by Taylor Marshall a number of months ago, I'm sure for daring to say something true about Mary.

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Uh, you know, he hadn't blocked me for a couple of years because people like Taylor Marshall, um, you know, on one hand,

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I, I pity them conservative believing Roman Catholics who know they absolutely positively know, um, that their church and the leader of their church is hanging a hard left and no, they can see it.

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They're willing, you know, they're not, he's not doing Pope's planning. Um, he knows the

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Pope is, um, well, someone sent me, uh, a screenshot.

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Like I said, he blocked me. Um, someone sent me a screenshot of him basically saying straight out, this guy that Pope Francis is going to make a voting

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Cardinal a Cardinal who will be voting for Francis's successor, um, is a straight up heretic.

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Now I don't know what he's heretical about. Um, I'd say the vast majority of archbishops and bishops in the

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Roman Catholic church or would be identified as arch heretics by pretty much every century of Roman Catholicism from the

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Council of Trent up till 50 years ago. But so I'm not sure what his particular thing is.

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Um, but he was grousing because what's going on is

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Francis has released a list of names of what's 11 or 17.

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I forget what it was. Fair number of new Cardinals. They're going to be getting their little Cardinal hat, which has nothing to do with baseball.

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And these are going to be key individuals who will determine the nature and the theological beliefs of the next

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Bishop of Rome. Um, I don't know if Francis is going to resign once he feels like he's got what he needs, that he's, you know, change stuff enough that the next guy along will continue this.

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But it's, you literally have to be closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and going, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, to, to, to escape the reality that Francis is openly publicly seeking to, uh, make sure that what's coming down the road is going to be a continuation of his intentions and his viewpoints, which inevitably will result in a very different Roman Catholic church.

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Um, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, it's not the hard left.

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It's not the, I'm going to create a schism in the church tomorrow. Um, they've learned their lesson and they've looked to the liberalization of the mainstream

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Protestant churches. How did they do it? How'd they do it over time?

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And how can we adjust that and make that work for us? And that's what they're doing.

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And so the Pope's explainers just have to absolutely, um, just have to live in a fantasy world to say, well, no, the

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Pope hasn't changed anything. But when you, when you listen to what he said recently, um, and he's, look, he's been pretty consistent on this since he became

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Pope. We all know that early on young kids sitting on his lap, you know, it was my daddy in hell because he was an atheist.

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And, and well, if he had you baptized, no, we, you know, we don't think that's, you know, he did the right thing, even though he wasn't baptized.

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I mean, it goes completely against historic Roman Catholic teachings. There's kid wasn't making an argument that his dad experienced a baptism of desire by any stretch of imagination.

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He died as an inveterate atheist. He didn't deny the existence of God. He did not repent.

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There was no, there's no inclusivism. He didn't make an act of faith toward God. Uh, well, but he did have his kids baptized.

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That's, that's an act of faith toward God. I really seriously. Um, so he's had these views.

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He's a liberation theologian. This is what Catholicism is in South America. No one that that's not, that's not really arguable or disputable or anything like that.

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And so he's been fairly, fairly consistent, but you know, here we are and he's, you know, all religions are paths to God and, and all this kind of stuff that he's just openly saying to people, yeah, but he's not defining it dogmatically.

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He doesn't have to, he does not have to. If he keeps teaching it and if he keeps putting people in places of authority in the church, the papal office has tremendous power to form the fabric of the

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Curia, the magisterium, and that filters down to the schools and the monasteries and, and everything.

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And so if he's putting people in place that are going to be there long after he's gone that share his views, then 20 years from now, we're not going to be having this conversation because it'll be a given the popesplainers will be way far to the left at that point, because this, this ground will already have been seeded that, that, that, that's all done.

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And so this isn't just a fascinating, you know, recognition of, you know, we're not just sitting here going, you know, historically going, wow, this is a fascinating time of life to live where we're seeing a major world religion fundamentally changing in front of our eyes.

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This is Roman Catholicism. Any of you, you know, as I mentioned earlier, if, if you, when

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I, when I taught on the Lord's Supper, an apology a couple of years ago, I had to mention over and over again that as we're walking through what the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith says on the Lord's Supper, the terminology is being used assumes a background on the part of the reader and that that background is

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Roman Catholicism. It's, it's a, it's a denial of what Roman Catholicism teaches in regards to transubstantiation and regards to, uh, the, the, the fact that the mass is the same sacrifice of self -same sacrifice of Christ, but it doesn't perfect anyone.

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Um, and only reformed men can make a strong argument biblically at that point.

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The Arminian who has a sacrifice of Christ doesn't save anyone either is compromised there, but these are key and central issues.

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And so when, when you see that religion fundamentally changing its emphasis, then you recognize that the, the controversies that were taking place at the time of the

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Reformation, if, if liberation theology and its redefinition of so much in Roman Catholicism becomes the standard, which is what

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Francis is trying to do, then the nature of our interaction as believe

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Bible -believing Christians with Roman Catholicism is going to change radically. It's one thing, you know,

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I, I, I really appreciate, um, this debate that I have coming up because the individual on debating is a, evidently is more

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Roman Catholic than the Pope. And the majority of the

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Catholic apologists that I've debated in the past are more Roman Catholic than this Pope. In fact,

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I, I've, I've thought a few times about a lot of those early debates and I've, I've thought to myself, what would that guy that I debated have said about Francis back then?

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If Francis had just been a, you know, a bishop, as he was for a long time, and you brought up his beliefs and things like that back in the, uh, late 1990s, what would a lot of those apologists that I was debating have said about him then?

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And what do they have to say today? Um, much has changed, much has changed.

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Uh, I haven't had to change as far as, you know, what I will, what

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I will present in the debate in Mobile at the end of this month will be almost word for word what

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I wrote in The Fatal Flaw, my first book in 1990.

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Um, I haven't changed. Hopefully it'll be deeper, um, something along those lines, you know, uh, but I haven't changed.

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Uh, the, the fundamental refutation of the mass is the Bible's teaching on what is actually accomplished in the death of Jesus Christ.

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So as long as Rome claims that this is the self -same sacrifice of Christ, then you compare that to what the apostles taught, that sacrifice accomplished, and there you go.

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Uh, so it can't be the only way to worship God because it's not what the apostles taught.

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God is about what the apostles taught about the sacrifice of Christ and therefore about the worship of, um, of God.

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So that's just how that works. So I don't have to change.

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I'm very thankful for that. But like I said, I think the guy

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I'm debating is more Catholic than Francis. And I will raise the question in light of what

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Francis has recently said on his recent trips. Um, and what the

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Catholic catechism says in section 841, that the Muslims adore, uh, the one

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God of Abraham. Um, what, what does that mean in regards to worship within Roman Catholicism?

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That's relevant to our, our top, our topic as well. So point is we can, we can back off from that for a moment and just go, we are in an incredible time period.

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Um, and we're watching something that I get the feeling of a lot of folks don't have the patience to really think through because this is going to be something that's going to happen over decades.

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And a lot of modern individuals are, they struggle to track things that are taking place over decades.

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And so I, I, you know, I may not live long enough to see all of this come to fruition.

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Uh, but you younger folks will, and hopefully what you'll do is you'll think back, um, and, and be able to see that track because if, if that's effective within Roman Catholicism to bring about fundamental change, then in all probability, there will be people in your denominations that will attempt to use the same process.

36:05

That's how it was done to the Methodists. I remember my dad, I remember where he was in the kitchen in our old house up north of bell road.

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I remember him saying that he remembered back in the 1950s, rock ribbed

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Methodists who preached the gospel with power.

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And you're just not going to encounter that anymore. Okay. Maybe, maybe over in, uh, you know, some of the

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African Methodists that have had to break off from the United Methodists and stuff like that. But the point was it took, it took decades, but the change has been astonishing.

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And there is no denomination, there is no school, there is no ministry that is outside of the possibility of that kind of attack.

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And I think there'd be a lot of Roman Catholics that agree with me. Yes, the papacy is under attack. Francis is an example of that.

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And a lot of those people are going, and God will never allow it to happen. And something miraculous is going to happen because we believe in the infallibility of the

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Pope and, and, you know, all the stuff that goes along with that. I've, I've encountered those folks and I feel for them. I feel for them.

37:35

I really, really do. Um, and I, I just want to explain to them, Hey, y 'all took a wrong turn a long time ago.

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And, uh, the only, the only way to get, get back into apostolic teaching is to go to the only thing we have from the apostles.

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And the only thing we have from the apostles is found between the covers of this book.

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And you've, this is what you've got to go to. This is, this is where you have to have to come. And, um,

38:15

Sola Scriptura, you know, and they automatically respond to that with, and, and, you know, uh,

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I got into a couple of conversations as a result of what I said about the Ave Maria stuff on the subject of Sola Scriptura, and it all went back to the same old stuff.

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Anyway, um, keep your eyes open. I, this, uh, synod and synodality that's taking place in Rome right now, the, the outcome of that,

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I think will have far reaching ramifications and certainly the cardinals that he's putting in place far reaching ramifications in regards to, um, what's, what's going to happen with the future

38:57

Rome. All right here toward the end of the program, we've got about 20 minutes left.

39:03

Um, I, I do not want to talk about things like this, but there's, we, we, in a sense, social media has put churches, organizations, ministers in significantly closer.

39:25

I'd like to say communion, but probably be a bit too positive of a thing.

39:31

Oh, and by the way, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Uh, where did

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I put that? Uh, where did

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I put that? Oh, drat. I thought I, yeah.

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Okay. Here's a Francis thing. The world is made up of many different realities that are diverse precisely so they can assist and complete each other.

40:00

When they're harmonized, all generations, peoples, and differences can reveal the wonderful splendor of humanity and creation.

40:07

Talk about new age mumbo jumbo. Um, but he made a comment and where, what did

40:14

I, man, I thought I had bookmarked it. I guess I didn't. Sorry about that. He, um, uh, he used the phrase

40:25

Semper Reformanda and I, I commented on it and said, we'll talk about this on, on the program.

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And I said, I wish I could read this a little bit more, uh, positively, but, and I didn't,

40:40

I didn't bookmark it. My fault. Don't know where it went. Um, just really quickly.

40:46

Don't, don't read anything more into that than, than you need to. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics were like, what?

40:54

That's a, that's a reform thing. And unfortunately many in the reform community now are, oh, that's a Bart thing.

41:00

Um, a lot of people commented on it. Like where in the world is that coming from?

41:06

And I don't think it's really has almost any meaning at all outside of the fact that, uh, he doesn't mean by Semper Reformanda what we mean by that.

41:20

And he is illustrating, um, that that's a reflection of his statement earlier about, um, conservatives.

41:33

Remember the, remember the, uh, interview that he had with, um, I forget what it was. It was a 60 minutes, might've been 60 minutes.

41:40

And, and he reacted so strongly the term conservative and they're holding to the past and, and, and almost fundamentalistic way.

41:51

And, and that's what he's talking about. He's using that phrase as a mechanism for defending his own, uh, rather radical, um, viewpoints and rather radical pontificate.

42:06

But I thought I'd save that. Um, oh, well, I, um, I guess I didn't. And, um, so back to what

42:12

I was saying, we, over the past, um, number of months, really going back to, to sweater vest dialogues

42:26

I did with Doug Wilson. Um, my concerns about Christian nationalism and especially the

42:36

Stephen Wolfian view of Christian nationalism, uh, have been confirmed,

42:43

I believe, uh, over the past, it's been over a year since we did those programs.

42:50

And, uh, I have really in my mind clarified much of what my concerns back then were in regards to sacralism and regards to, um, the nature of terms like Christendom.

43:13

And Christendom has now become a popular term amongst reform guys get

43:19

Christendom, new Christendom press and conferences on Christendom and, and Christendom 1 .0

43:26

and Christendom 2 .0. And these are conversations we were not having, uh, 15, 20 years ago.

43:35

We weren't having them five years ago. Some people started to, but well, yeah, six, 2018.

43:41

So around that time period. Anyway. And the result of all of this is that fractures have developed amongst reform people so that in 2023, uh,

44:03

Dr. Joe boot of the Ezra Institute, uh, for which I am a honored to be a fellow.

44:10

Uh, he and I spoke at a conference with Joel Webbins group, right response ministries in Texas.

44:17

And, you know, we're talking about post -colonialism we're talking about, uh, the need to call magistrates to repentance.

44:27

I preached out of acts when, when Paul's preaching on repentance and godliness and doing that to government leaders.

44:38

And, and, you know, all that was not very long ago.

44:45

Um, but next year there's a, uh, conference, uh, defeating trash world,

44:54

I think is what it's called. I think Christendom's in the title somewhere. And, uh,

45:00

Jeff Durbin was going to be speaking there. He's not now, uh, primarily because Steven Wolf is speaking there.

45:06

And, uh, Steven Wolf, um, uses languages like moronic and stupid, uh, to describe people who do not accept his political philosophies.

45:22

And he is primarily a political philosopher. Um, and so, you know, he subtweets me all the time and, and Jeff's like,

45:31

I'm, you know, I'm not going to, uh, provide, uh, any kind of support to someone who treats my fellow elder in that way.

45:38

And, and so he's not going to be there, but there's going to be lots of folks who will be. And it's an illustration of how in basically less than two years, there has been a fracture and a division.

45:59

Now I would, I would point to the fact that, uh,

46:06

Steven Wolf's views on Christian nationalism, I don't see how they are at all consistent with someone who is a theonomic post -millennialist, presuppositionalist, because he's a natural law to mystic sacralist.

46:26

He has said plainly, you do not need to have massive regeneration for Christian nationalism to take place.

46:34

You just need Christian princes. And, you know, this, this does take us right back to foundational principles um, you know,

46:47

Wolf goes after Joe boot. He goes after me, he goes after Jeff Durbin. And it's one thing to have meaningful disagreements.

46:56

It's another thing to use language like utter stupidity, moronic, you know, that kind of stuff.

47:05

That's, that's someone who's not really interested in playing well with others. And so I, I consider

47:12

Steven Wolf an opponent. Um, there are some people who, you know, at, uh,

47:20

G3 last year, uh, in the pre -conference, um, Owen Strand made it very clear.

47:27

He views Steven Wolf as a white nationalist. And, you know,

47:33

I couldn't prove that though, since then I've seen things that do make me go, uh,

47:41

I'm not sure why he said that or why he's promoting this or that or the other thing. So this is a situation that we are facing today and navigating it is a, is a real challenge.

47:58

Last week, a podcast dropped from Joel Webbin and another gentleman from his church talking about the, uh, great meme controversy.

48:10

And this was the meme that, um, I had heard about, but didn't say anything about.

48:17

Doug Wilson likewise heard about it and he did mention it on BlogMA blog.

48:24

And when he mentioned it, I saw people responding to that. And so I then, uh, supported what he said.

48:33

It was the, it was the one where the young girl asks mommy, mommy, what was the Holocaust? And mommy's response is, uh, the

48:40

Holocaust is when the Jews were forced to do manual labor and they said it was killing them. And, uh,

48:48

Doug had made, you know, Doug's commentary on that, uh, recognize that a person who would either produce the meme, share the meme, find the meme humorous, um, this person's not questioning historical issues.

49:07

You have to, you just, and this is, this is what was missed in my opinion by Joel and his, uh, co -interlocutor.

49:17

I'm sorry, I don't have them in front of me. It was some of his church. I think it was fellow elder. I think um, in their conversation.

49:25

And that was, it was presented as if this individual, because this had happened in Joel's church, this individual who had not posted the meme on Twitter, but had shared the meme with his former pastor

49:41

Tobias Riemenschneider from Frankfurt, Germany. Um, this person was presented as someone who's just asking questions about the post -war consensus.

49:50

Now, even Joel admitted he had never even heard the phrase post -war consensus till about a year and a half ago, reading a particular book.

49:58

Uh, it is amazing how certain, um, phrases and certain things end up becoming so quickly popular that no one had ever even heard of before.

50:12

Um, that's very, very concerning to me. Uh, by the way, uh, things are happening way too fast, but anyway, uh, the idea was presented this, this, this guy's just asking questions about the, the post -war consensus.

50:30

And I've heard the post -war consensus defined as Hitler's everything.

50:35

If you disagree with somebody, Hitler, Hitler bad, this, if you, if you, this, that's Hitler, that's

50:40

Hitler. If that's the definition of post -war consensus, it's, it's irrelevant. It doesn't have any meaning.

50:47

Um, we can talk about post -war consensus in regards there's post the term has been used theologically ever since World War II.

50:58

You can't even preach on certain passages that speak about the Jews.

51:03

So there's a theological post -war consensus. There would be a political post -war consensus. There's, there's a lot of ways of applying it.

51:10

But anyway, what was said was this guy is just asking questions. I'm sorry. I don't buy that.

51:16

I don't accept that. Um, what's obvious to me is that if you're, and this is what

51:23

I first addressed. This is what caused people to come out of the woodwork people to, uh, face,

51:32

FaceTime, not FaceTime, Photoshop my face, uh, and make me a rabbi and people in the neo -Nazi realm.

51:44

And cause I've followed some rabbit trails in Twitter into some dark places.

51:51

And there are a lot of dark places in social media. I'm sure there are in Facebook and I just don't use them, but you, you follow enough threads and you end up in some very dark places.

52:06

Um, you know, reading Christians talking about once Jew, always a Jew. And, and, you know, this guy literally saying

52:13

I've, I've gone to apology and James White is Israel first on everything. And just like, what, what color is this guy in your world?

52:25

Disconnected from truth, reality, honesty, anything like that. Um, but just nasty stuff, anti -Jewish nastiness that it is out there.

52:35

And sadly I've comment I've said before in the first two days after I made comments about this, 50 % of the people

52:43

I was blocking on Twitter had 1689 in their bio. And it was just depressing, really, really depressing.

52:51

And so, um, what, what Doug said and what

52:56

I said is the meme requires you to have some level of Holocaust denialism in your thinking and Holocaust denialism isn't having an argument.

53:11

Uh, was it 6 million? Was it 4 million? Was it 2 million? That's not Holocaust denialism.

53:19

The government, the Nazi government of Germany made it, and this is documented, there's no question about this, made it their intention to murder as many

53:35

Jews as possible. They, uh, rounded them up and shipped them off to concentration camps.

53:43

You cannot sit here and go, and that's because they were just trying to do what the

53:49

Americans did with the Japanese. What the Americans did with Japanese was wrong. And there was for many

53:56

Americans, a, um, ethnic element to that.

54:02

Japanese don't look like us. The Germans do. And I've mentioned my parents grew up during the war.

54:11

They were born in the early 1930s. So they were kids during the war.

54:16

And my mom to the day she died, referred to the Japs. That's just, that was just how she was raised.

54:25

The Japs. I never heard her use kraut. And it did not seem to me there was as much animosity toward Germans as there was toward Japanese.

54:38

Um, so yes, America, what America did to Japanese Americans was completely wrong, but they didn't gas them and they didn't have

54:50

Joseph Mengele performing experiments on them.

54:56

Uh, what they did was wrong. Um, but it was not what

55:03

Nazi Germany did as the final solution. And so you had very clearly a purposeful and intensive program on the part of Germany to destroy the

55:17

Jews. Um, and they succeeded in destroying many, you want to argue about 1 million to 6 million.

55:27

I will leave that to you. But the fact of the showed genocidal hatred toward the

55:36

Jews as an ethnic group and others, including the gypsies, but especially for the

55:43

Jews. And unless you're going to say that, uh, the hiding place is all fiction, uh, that the, uh, the 10 booms didn't need to be risking themselves.

55:55

I didn't have to die. The number of Christians who did give their lives to rescue

56:00

Jews, uh, during those horrific years, you know, if you want to make all of them, you know, say they're all just a bunch of idiots.

56:09

Um, that I'll leave that up to you as well. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that do.

56:16

Um, but so there is an element of Holocaust denialism in the meme.

56:22

And then of course, there's just the bias, the prejudice, uh, of saying

56:27

Jews don't do manual labor. Uh, there's behind that is the mindset.

56:34

Jews are rich, but they don't deserve to be rich. They just, uh, got it, got it all from banking and ripping off Gentiles and all the rest of this kind of stuff.

56:45

Believe me, if you, again, if you want to go deep dive enough into social media, you'll find people who will accuse the

56:53

Jews of absolutely being, being behind every evil. It seems that no other ethnic group is actually totally depraved except the

57:01

Jews from their perspective. Um, it's, uh, it's a sad thing. So this was the issue.

57:09

And that is why I said, what I said, someone who would find this humorous person's elders needs to, needs to help them to understand what's behind it, uh, what it's saying, um, why it's wrong, why it's sinful to have that kind of a bias toward an ethnic group, um, and call them to repentance because a person with that attitude is not going to be someone who is going to go out of their way or be prepared to explain

57:45

Isaiah 53 to a Jewish person, to, to be the one to be used, to introduce this individual to their

57:54

Messiah. Uh, if you, if you harbor that kind of, um, sinful attitude toward an ethnic group, just as I've discovered, there are many, many

58:07

Christians who have a sinful attitude toward Muslim. You can recognize all the errors of Islam.

58:15

You can recognize the, uh, horrific nature of the doctrine of Jihad and the

58:25

Dar al -Islam and Dar al -Harb and, you know, believe me,

58:30

I, I know Islam, um, I really do. You can recognize all those things without developing a hatred for the

58:43

Muslim people themselves. If you can't, you're immature. And as a

58:49

Christian, you're in deep trouble. And so the point being, and man, if I, if I run into a lot of Christians in the

58:58

Crusader stuff, they go that direction. They, they, they don't love

59:04

Muslims. They don't want to witness to Muslims. They didn't, they just want to kill Muslims. It's scary.

59:11

Um, that's another issue that we'll need to be dealing with, but you call for repentance.

59:19

And then if someone is unwilling to repent of those sinful attitudes, then church discipline is in order.

59:26

Now, church discipline does not mean all the way to the point of excommunication, but if a person is unwilling, if you have a person in your church who goes, you know what?

59:38

It's, it's, it's all a fake. Um, the Nazis were the last

59:45

Christian nation. I've heard people saying, oh yeah, you know, 1930s Germany. Oh, very

59:51

Christian nation. What? Um, I guess you haven't read a whole lot about German rationalistic theology from the 1850s onward.

01:00:05

But anyway, the majority of Christian denominations in Germany had been eviscerated by that point in time.

01:00:15

And of course, World War I, uh, destroyed religious faith all over Europe, all over Europe, both in the

01:00:27

UK and France and Belgium and Germany and, and all over the place.

01:00:32

And, and yes, Germany was mistreated. The, the, the reason we had World War II is because at the

01:00:38

World War I, the people that did that were idiots. Um, they, they, they planted the seeds immediately for yet another, um,

01:00:50

World War to take place. Those are questions, but, but if you have someone who goes,

01:00:59

Hitler was a Christian Prince, all this stuff is, you know, and the, is, is false.

01:01:05

And the, and the, uh, the Germans were on, we were on the wrong side of the war. Um, and the

01:01:12

Jews today are in control of everything. And they're, they're, they're the ones that, that's not a person that you're going to be able to have in your fellowship.

01:01:26

They're not going to preach the gospel of grace to Jews. They're going to be everyone

01:01:32

I've ever seen that's bought into that, that's become their entire worldview. That's all they're concerned about.

01:01:37

It's all they're focused on. And so that's what I was saying. Um, and I need to clarify that because, uh,

01:01:47

Joel said a lot of things where, um, I know he was primarily focused upon Tobias Riemenschneider, but he didn't, uh, make that, uh, differentiation in his statements.

01:02:01

And he talked about pastors, plural, who write blogs, Doug, uh, do webcasts.

01:02:08

I guess that would have been me since I've spent 10 minutes talking about it. Um, and so you've got to go, okay, we need to have a conversation.

01:02:18

Here's what we were talking about. I stand behind it. You know, he's going, we're not going to kick this guy up.

01:02:24

Fine. The, the question is, what has been the discussion in regards to, well, you know, you're just, you're just questioning these things.

01:02:32

All right. Let's see what that results in a year from now, uh, two years from now, because in my experience, um, if someone says, oh no, no, no, no, no,

01:02:47

I'm not holding to any particular, um, hatred or bias toward other people.

01:02:54

Okay. If that is true, time will tell, time will demonstrate that.

01:03:04

If what you're getting is, I know how to speak your language.

01:03:09

And so I'm going to say that I'm not doing that.

01:03:14

And I don't have that, uh, that bias and that animosity. Um, they're not going to be able to hold that in and they're going to continue going the other direction and that other direction.

01:03:29

Unfortunately, I've heard a number of people, uh, I was listening to a webcast this morning, um, basically saying that the

01:03:43

Nazi Hitler wasn't bad. This is a tiny, tiny, tiny proportion of people.

01:03:52

It's not a tiny, tiny portion of my block list on Twitter, but that's not representing real life.

01:03:58

Okay. But here's my concern. Um, Western culture is fracturing into a thousand pieces and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

01:04:15

And my concern is that with is in local churches, in the local fellowship, because of the fact that many of our people do not necessarily derive even the majority sadly of their theological and historical input from their own local church.

01:04:43

They get it from other sources. And um, so there,

01:04:56

I don't know if there's anything we can really do about that, but what that means is local pastors need to be very, very aware if they can be of what their people are listening to and what's being promoted and where that might take you.

01:05:18

And there is a lot of really nasty revisionism out there.

01:05:24

And it is, it's poison, it's acid to the fellowship of the church.

01:05:31

I've seen people fly off into tremendous imbalance and shepherds hate to see the sheep running off to the wolves.

01:05:45

Uh, but it happens and we have to warn and we have to be very, very careful.

01:05:54

Now I want to make it very clear. I have said this to countless people. Now I do not want to build walls.

01:06:06

I do not want to build cement reinforced walls so that when you get a divide, when you get a something like this happening, that there is no possibility in the future that I, I, I believe that what we're seeing right now is a temporary movement.

01:06:37

I don't think it has legs. I really don't. Um, it can only go so far.

01:06:45

It's drawing from sources outside of scripture. And so I just,

01:06:52

I just think that over time it will morph into other things.

01:06:59

I mean, just think about all the stuff that has excited people greatly since 2018, 2018.

01:07:09

If you remember, uh, the Martin Luther King stuff, the woke stuff started, you know, then 2020 and COVID blew all that up.

01:07:17

And, you know, just think of all the stuff that's been the topic of the day that we don't even think about anymore.

01:07:26

So there's a lot of energy looking for new stuff, but I don't see this stuff as having a long life to it.

01:07:37

And so I want to go, I don't, I don't want to join the, I hate

01:07:42

Joel Webb and fan club or non anti fan club. No, I'm sure. Hey, I have no interest in, in hating the man, uh, in rejecting the man in nuking the man, um, anything like that.

01:07:56

Um, same thing with, uh, the guys up in Ogden, uh, or, or whatever.

01:08:03

I don't want to say to anybody who agrees with me on 98 .5

01:08:13

% of our theology, including all the central stuff that defines the gospel, but who currently has an emphasis that I go, guys, you really thought this through.

01:08:25

I don't want to go, I don't ever want to have anything to do with you again. I'm never going to shake your hand at a conference 20 years from now, if I can even stand at a conference 20 years from now, um,

01:08:35

I'm not, I don't want to be that guy, but at the same time I'm sitting here going, uh, guys, some of this stuff,

01:08:48

I just don't think you've really thought through where it leads. And so there is, there are some real differences in emphasis right now.

01:08:59

And I'm concerned about it. And I'm going to stay concerned about it. Um, I think something that would be, that I would certainly be willing to do of assuming the nation remains functional after January of 2025.

01:09:20

Um, and you gotta admit, some of you six or nine months ago were going, ah, you're such a, you're, you're, you're such a scaremonger.

01:09:30

And now you're looking at what's going on going, oh, you didn't know the half of it, did you? I know.

01:09:35

Wow. Anyway, something I'd be interested in doing, um, next year, if we can travel, um,

01:09:47

I I'd like to go up to Ogden resolved.

01:09:58

Um, how do, how do I express this? The theology implicit in and underlying the crusades is utterly inconsistent with a biblical formulation of the gospel or utterly inconsistent with reformed theology.

01:10:32

I'll defend them. Anybody I knew up until a few years ago would have defended them at least within reform community.

01:10:42

Um, let's have, have the conversation. What about it?

01:10:50

Oh, you should, you should take on Raymond Ibrahim. He's a cop. He's a cop.

01:10:57

And I don't think most of you understand what that means. Theologically speaking, the only, only reason to have a debate with Raymond Ibrahim is to debate the gospel itself and to debate solo scriptura and to debate, um, relics and Marian devotion and things like that.

01:11:25

And my concern about the adulation and lionization of the crusades has from the beginning, completely theological.

01:11:38

And I just don't know how someone who says, I agree with you.

01:11:44

You introduced me to reform theology, the potter's freedom. Okay, then, then let's do that consistency thing, shall we?

01:11:55

And let's talk about riding into battle with the true cross.

01:12:03

Do you think that's the true cross? I don't think that's true. Well, they believed it was.

01:12:09

Yeah. So, so I'm, I'm going to be swinging my sword and cutting guys in half because I'm so strong and manly with the true cross right there.

01:12:22

And it's, or the, or the spear and Antioch that, that, that pierce the side of Jesus.

01:12:29

That's how we're, that's why we're going to ride out and destroy the Muslims. I'm just going, what?

01:12:38

We've, we've lost our balance here. We had, I, you're going, we learned a lot from you.

01:12:45

You didn't learn how to do history from a Christian worldview and theology from me because this doesn't make any sense.

01:12:56

Um, it's just indulgences and a false gospel and everything else.

01:13:01

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then push it off to the side to where it's no longer the determined thing.

01:13:09

Do you know where that leads? Can you see where that's going to go? It doesn't seem that everybody can.

01:13:16

So, hey, how about it? No, we want to talk about, we need to do this. I've proven this can be done, you know, proper and fundamental way.

01:13:27

Let's think about, think about doing it. I know I'm supposed to be going up. Um, uh,

01:13:34

Wade is, Wade Acini up there in apology, Utah is working on trying to arrange a debate on Mormonism, uh, with a well -known

01:13:44

Mormon scholar that I think would be really, really useful. Uh, I was supposed to have a fascinating conversation with a

01:13:54

Mormon scholar on textual critical issues at BYU, um, years ago.

01:14:00

I would love to see if that could be re kindled, reignited. Uh, that would be fascinating.

01:14:07

And if I'm gonna be up that direction, why not? Let's, let's do it.

01:14:13

So again, from, from my perspective, these things are vitally important. Um, I think there are issues of balance and consistency that over time will either have to be addressed and healed or will cause further division will, will cause moving farther and farther away from each other.

01:14:40

At the same time, I would really like to see this addressed within the bonds of fellowship rather than outside.

01:14:54

Um, as it has been very rightly observed, and this is one of my problems with non post -millennial

01:15:04

Christian nationalism, those of us, and how many times have

01:15:11

I said this on this program? How many times have I said this? Love this Bible. Thank you,

01:15:17

Jeffrey Rice. Um, if you believe that this is a revelation from God from beginning to end, that is consistent,

01:15:30

God -breathed and sufficient for the people of God, you are in with me, a very small minority, very small minority.

01:15:46

So I don't want to atomize that small minority, but I do want to say we need to be consistent and remain balanced.

01:16:01

I had somebody say, since I was talking about the gospel and the crusades, you're starting to sound like John Piper.

01:16:10

Um, when have, when have I done anything that wasn't defined first and foremost by the gospel?

01:16:20

Has not, hasn't, haven't Rich and I for 40 years, um, eschewed 41 now,

01:16:33

I just realized 41 years now, eschewed going a lot of different directions that would have allied us and put us in alliances where the gospel wasn't actually definitional and we wouldn't do it.

01:16:52

And we're much smaller because of it. Um, that's, that's the way we've been all along.

01:17:01

So I don't, evidently I didn't communicate that because, well, we learned so much from you, but, but that's why we've done the things we've done and the way we've done it.

01:17:14

Oh, uh, Rich would like to correct my numbers. See, he's not even here.

01:17:20

He's on his phone and he's still getting me off track. Not even through the window.

01:17:27

There's an empty chair through the window. I'm doing this on my own and he still has to correct me. He's only, only 37 years uh, for Rich.

01:17:35

So 41 for me, 36 and you know, he's much older than I am.

01:17:40

Uh, had, had a birthday two days ago. Um, I, I thought about having a case of Geritol sent to him.

01:17:49

Um, but I don't think they make it anymore. That's, that's the really, you know, you know, you're getting old when you're old jokes are so old, no one will understand them anymore because they don't make the stuff.

01:18:01

You know, Geritol was, was for old people. I guess sort of like an iron supplement or something like that.

01:18:08

Um, and uh, anyway, so I would like to, um, have these conversations.

01:18:17

Uh, I'm not going to, um, stop going guys.

01:18:26

I think balance patience, you know, you, you need to, you, you've, you've betrayed young men.

01:18:35

No, I haven't. What I've said to young men is discipline, patience, godliness, focus on what this says will bring you to maturity and give you a foundation for a life well lived in service to Jesus Christ, running after every new thing that comes along will not give you that foundation.

01:19:09

I've been willing to speak the truth and I stand there.

01:19:18

I stand there. Um, that's what I want to be remembered for. So there you go.

01:19:26

Um, we went over time, obviously, sorry about that. I am, uh, someone asked me,

01:19:33

I posted on Twitter. I will close with this. I post on Twitter, my new, um, cat dad shirt.

01:19:40

You can't see it, but if you go to Twitter, I took a picture of it. And, um,

01:19:46

I, I said on, on Twitter, I said, this is, this is one neat thing about modern life.

01:19:52

You couldn't do this kind of stuff, uh, up until recent times.

01:19:58

And, uh, so it has, yes, four kitties on it.

01:20:04

Um, Butler has been officially adopted into the, into the family, even though he doesn't, he doesn't stay in the house at night or anything like that.

01:20:13

Uh, he's still pretty feral, but he lets me pet him and knows his name and, you know, comes in when everybody else eats.

01:20:21

So I've added him to the, uh, added him to the, the crew. Uh, even though I don't know that he's ever going to, he does sleep under the bed in the, in the bedroom during the day sometimes.

01:20:31

So he does whatever he wants to do. He's a, uh, he's a tuxedo. If you know, tuxedos, oranges, tuxedos, porties, every, uh, every one, they have their own interesting, um, characteristics.

01:20:47

So yes, I do have my, um, I think it's cat dad, the man, the myth, and then it's the,

01:20:54

Oh, the, the snack dealer. That's what it says. The snack dealer. That's the only thing I would have changed because we call them treats in our house and all our kitties know what treats me.

01:21:03

You want some treats? They head straight to, they have little places they go. They know that I'm going to come over and give them some temptations, cat treats, uh, which obviously

01:21:12

I have some kind of catnip in or something because they're addicted to them. They think they're the greatest things on the surface of the, of the earth.

01:21:19

So, and I'm great for giving them to them. So, so there you go. So someone on Twitter had said that since I post that I had to wear it on the program,

01:21:28

I said, okay, I'm going to, I'm headed there now. So there you go. And I don't care what anybody says about it because I'm in my seventh decade of life.

01:21:36

So I just don't care. You just, you know, you just go from there.

01:21:42

All right. Um, there's a lot more that will probably need to be said in the future. Um, but again,

01:21:49

I, there's so few of us, I don't want, uh, to get rid of the possibility of future peace and harmony and being together, um, you know, together for the gospel, you know, sayings can't provide that, but doing can.

01:22:19

And there is everything right in trying to be together for the gospel until you stop making that your, your first starting point.

01:22:30

And so when I look at the crusades, I look at them through the lens of the gospel of Jesus Christ found in scripture.

01:22:40

And given that they were based upon a prostitution of that gospel, there's your starting.

01:22:47

If you shove that off the side, it's not going to, it's not going to end up well.

01:22:53

It's not going to end up. Anyway. All right. With that, I will start that.

01:23:03

And I turned the monitor off so I can't hear it. Thanks for watching the dividing line. We will see you next time.

01:23:10

And I'm going to have to do something real quick here. Where'd it go? There we go.