Rome's Trajectory, Response to Division and Debate Amongst the "Reformed"

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name's James White and I have an echo going on here. There we go. Not sure how in the world that happened, but... Oh, stop. I'm not sure why you're doing that either.

Uh...

Where's the mute button? There it is. Ta-da! I'm running it all myself today, folks, and we're having some issues and I'm having to play some games to make things work the way they're supposed to work and so we'll just see how all that ends up working when we get done working on it.

I sound like Kamala Harris. I do not want to sound like Kamala Harris. Um, I, you know, might as well start there. Um, I, I, I get up in the morning and I see stuff and I read stuff and I just go, what has happened?

Um, I remember a day when candidates for high office, president, senate, you know, a single bad interview could turn the entire race. And I, you know, one, one little exchange in a debate or, or something along those lines, and I look at the situation we're facing right now and you see these, at least there's been some interviews, 60 minutes, it was actually semi-encouraging that anyone in the mainstream media was willing to ask a semi-serious question and, and to insist upon saying, well, actually, uh, illegal crossings have quadrupled under your, they say administration, I say regime.

You'll all be saying regime before long. Um, under your regime, uh, we've had a flood of millions of people coming to this country. Um, so do you feel like, you know, I guess she actually said when someone asked her, is there anything you would do differently?

I can't think of anything. Wow. Uh, 9 inflation. And we all know that that's not even close, what it actually was. Um, and probably still is, but, um, all this kind of stuff, uh, the, the answers that she gave, even he can tell are just that she can't give answers.

She, she cannot, this is, this is the woman that is going to be representing the United States. I mean, the last four years have been rough with Biden, but at least you can sit there and go, oh, they elected an Alzheimer's patient.

How sad. She doesn't have that excuse. She's just a plain old ditz. She really is. I mean, she's an evil ditz, but she's a ditz. And it's like four years can't anybody tell that the only she even said in one of the interviews, you've, you can't just be appointed as, as a candidate.

You have to earn it. Like you've never earned a single vote. What are you talking about? Wow. It's just, right. And you just, you sit here and you go, uh, something is really, really wrong. Now, obviously if we had journalists, if we had a press corps, um, you know, there, there are a few guys out there.

I enjoyed the, um, the thing today with a guy from Fox news, basically asking a question that all of us have been asking. And that is how come we have money to send to Lebanon, but we don't have money for our own people?

Oh, you know, how can it, oh, just, you know, storming out of the room and all Um, if I, you know, in years past, you'd have meaningful conversation about what a candidate was saying. Um, and you can't do that anymore.

There's she's, she, she's a word salad. And let's not talk about Tim Walz. I mean, he's just a Chinese operative. Um, in, in, you know, plain clothes. Um, but also a complete bits. And when, when you see the Marxists putting ditzes forward, you know, they're not the ones in charge.

Um, the same people who have face planted this nation for the past four years are going to continue the face planting for the next four, uh, if they can pull it off. And I'm afraid they probably will.

The Election, the Media, and the Crisis of Political Leadership

Um, so last week I, uh, and I've mentioned, I've, I explained this on, on Twitter because I think the one comment that I made had like either 400 or 700 comments in response to it. So far more than I could see.

And, uh, that looks better. Um, it was during Trump's Butler appearance. Okay. Give the guy credit. I don't know how many past candidates, if they had been hit by a bullet, um, in an assassination attempt that was obviously an inside job or a demonstration of a level of incompetence that hasn't been seen since Keystone cops.

Um, did y 'all notice the sloped roof had plenty of cops on it this time? Uh, well at least that person, um, is no longer employed, um, appropriately. So, um, but give him credit. Look, I've said a lot of negative things about Donald Trump.

It is since 2016, I have said that his candidacy is an indication of the corruption of our nation, um, and the corruption of the political system. Uh, vast majority of Republicans are grossly compromised, uh, politically, financially, it's, it's a given for the Democrats.

I'm not even talking about them. And, you know, that's why I became an independent. Oh, 20, 25 years ago, at least, uh, because the Republicans were giving money to people who, uh, to pro choice Republican.

I'm like, I'm not giving money. I'm not going to be a part of a party that's going to do that. So I've been independent ever since then. And I've said a lot of negative things about Donald Trump. I do not consider him qualified.

Um, he, he does not have the temperament, um, worldview, background, knowledge, uh, I think to handle the challenges that we face today. The only reason that I am truly praying he wins is because the other choice is, I believe the end of the United States as we know it.

I don't believe there will be a free election in 2028. Uh, if the cackling communist, uh, wins in 2024, I really don't. I mean, there'll be an election just like their elections in Russia and China and North Korea and Cuba.

And they all have elections, but they're, they have elections in California too, but they're not actually elections. It's a one party system in California. And if this election goes the way that I fear that it will, um, we'll have a one party situation in the United States and it will stay that way.

Uh, cause once you have all the power, then you can corrupt the system and make sure that you can hold on to it. So I am not a Trump fan. Um, there are so many disqualifying things about him that would have been disqualifying 15 years ago.

But when you're facing, um, the sock puppet Marxist, all of a sudden you look pretty good. And that's the situation that we're facing right now. So you gotta give him, you gotta give him credit. Um, he went back only.

What was it? How many weeks? I forget how many weeks ago it was. I was, I was doing something with the RV. I was getting food or something for the next trip or something, or just come back. I forget what it was, but, um, give him credit.

That's a pretty amazing thing to do. Pretty gutsy. Uh, all that's great, fine and wonderful. Uh, it doesn't mean that you're really actually temperamentally and mentally, um, and personally fit to be the best person, uh, to deal with the amazing things going on in the world and things like that.

I think economically he's not bad, even though, um, I, I think as a businessman, he's way too used to borrowing money and, um, didn't really help the deficit or anything like that. But anyway, he goes back to Butler, Pennsylvania, and I'm working on my outline for the debate in just a couple of weeks in Mobile, Alabama on a topic that will have relevance.

Well, it has eternal relevance and I'll be debating a person who's converted to Roman Catholicism, and he's defending the assertion that the only true way to worship God is in the sacrifice of the mass.

And I have learned, sadly, over the past number of months that a lot of my Reformed brethren will say that, you know, oh yeah, you know, mass bad. And you can't read, you pick up any scholarly commentary on the Westminster Confession of Faith, on Lundenbap's Confession of Faith, and you will be forced to have to learn Rome's dogmas concerning the sacrifice of the mass.

Now, has Rome changed since then? Yeah, I mean, she's moved farther and farther away in adopting the Marian dogmas, papal infallibility, Marian dogmas, specifically Immaculate Conception by the Assumption of Mary, which defined after the Reformation, um, and right now is in a state of flux because Francis, as we're going to be talking about here in a few minutes, is making fundamental changes that will change not only the direction of the Church, but really requires you to change your interpretation of the history of the Roman Catholic Church itself as to what it has taught, if you're going to even try to claim that Rome is the infallible, you know, the Pope's infallible price, things like that.

Rome, Francis, and the Changing Direction of Roman Catholicism

So, um, anyway, uh, so I'm working on this outline and I'm seeing stuff scrolling. I don't do Facebook. Well, I do do Facebook, have to because everybody, apologia does, but I don't do Instagram. I don't do TikTok.

I've never, I don't think I've ever had, I know I've never had a TikTok account. I may have had an Instagram account like 12 years ago or something more than that, uh, because Strava used it to upload pictures.

So it would upload pictures from my rides, but I don't use it anymore. So there's a lot of social media. I just don't have any presence on at all because I, uh, Twitter X is what I use. That's that's how, if I'm going to have a conversation with somebody, if I'm going to announce something is going to be on, uh, and so I'm seeing stuff, you know, clips from what's going on in Butler scrolling on my screen.

And I run into a clip of Ave Maria playing and I was sort of looking at it. And only a few days earlier, Trump had posted a prayer to Michael, the archangel. And I'm like, um, okay. Uh, Michael, the archangel.

What, where is this coming from? And so I'm doing other stuff. And so I see this and I go, I just type up a little thing. That's going Ave Maria prayers to Michael, the archangel what's going on. It was a simple, honest question.

Anybody who has some background knows the JD Vance, his vice presidential candidate is a relatively recent, I think like 2019, uh, which for us older folks is relatively recent, um, convert to Roman Catholicism.

I've seen a picture of him and Scott Hahn. And if you know anything about Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholic apologetics, in my own history, I've run into Scott Hahn before we've done entire reviews of like Scott Hahn's book on Mary and, and, um, you know, uh, would like to be able to point you to debates with Scott Hahn, but he won't touch that one with 10 foot pole.

So anyway, the question was very honest question. What's going on? Um, where is this influence coming from? Is it coming from Vance? Is this just a political ploy, uh, to expand, you know, I don't understand it, but I think the majority of Roman Catholics are Democrats.

They tend to be much more liberal, which, you know, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's the way it is. And so, um, I'm like, what's going on? Well, uh, I, uh, was once again, reminded that the large majority of humanity does not think they emote anymore.

That is instead of looking at the question and recognizing it had two parts to it. You know, I mentioned specifically the Michael, the archangel thing. I'm like, what's going on thinking people would go.

Yeah. He's talking about some interesting stuff that Trump has done. I mean, you look, you look back. I don't remember any prayers to Michael or Ave Maria in 2016 or 2020. Do you may have happened and I missed it.

It would have been helpful if someone let's say, let's say this is actually consistent with what he's done. Uh, that there's lots of been lots of Ave Maria's and stuff like that. And, and again, I've written a book, uh, you know, uh, where'd it go?

No, it's back there somewhere. Uh, on the subject of Mary now, Mary and other redeem right there. And I've debated this subject and it's, there's at least a full chapter in the Roman Catholic controversy.

And it, my, my position on Mary, um, is long established. So I recognize some reason. I don't know why my tweet went outside of the normal avenues of people that I would normally be talking to. Um, but it did.

And so a lot of folks were like, it's a beautiful song. And I had to explain to this one lady, uh, I did try to engage with folks and I'm like, well, it's beautiful. And I'm like, well, I, I think that, that beauty requires a little bit more thought than just simply the pleasing sounds.

I, I think what the words mean and what it's intended to convey as a Christian is rather important. And if you have a piece of music and its primary intention is to promote idolatry, uh, it can be very pleasing to the ears, but I don't think that means that I'm going to identify it as beautiful.

Oh, I just, that just so limiting. Okay. Um, yeah, the scripture can be limiting. Um, you know, I'm sure this is be somebody would say, Hey, any kind of worship is, you know, God does this thing is great.

You know, that's fine. Anyway, I did try to reason with at least some of the people, uh, that, that responded and it was, it was depressing. The emotional logic, rationality, you know, modus ponens, modus totals, law of non-contradiction, anything like that?

No, no. It's such a small portion of the American populace would have any idea about the formal rules of logic, reason, anything like that. Um, it, by the way, there's a great book on that by Jason Lyle that I would recommend to you.

You can get it from biblical science Institute .com. I don't mind promoting Jason. He's, um, a gift to the church. He truly is. And, uh, without a doubt, most intelligent person I've ever met. So, uh, but he's written a book on logic that you can use your kids homeschooling.

Um, I certainly hope that my grandkids, I know I've given them the book, whether they're using it or not. I don't know. I haven't asked, but anyway, uh, that kind of, that kind of thinking logically and rationally vast majority of the populace.

That's why should we do that? What, what, what's, what's the advantage to that? And that's, um, it says a lot because if, if we were actually thinking logically and rationally, this wouldn't even be an election season.

Um, this woman would, would, would not get 5 million votes, but that's not where we are anymore. And that says a whole lot about, about the nation. And so the, the, the kickback that I got, the pushback that I got for asking a simple question, 98 of the people did not even, were not even capable of understanding what the question was or showed any interest in knowing what the question was.

There is one, I think one guy that responded rationally. It could be this could be that, you know, think about this. And I was like, yeah, that's what I was looking for. But especially when it comes to Mary, Oh my goodness, don't even make the attempt.

Don't even make the attempt. It was, um, a sad and rather depressing, um, experience to, to see the kind of nastiness, uh, that, um, came, came my direction for asking a simple, a simple question like that.

But that's, that's what we're up against. Speaking of which, um, I was blocked by Taylor Marshall a number of months ago, I'm sure for daring to say something true about Mary. Uh, you know, he hadn't blocked me for a couple of years because people like Taylor Marshall, um, you know, on one hand, I, I pity them conservative believing Roman Catholics who know they absolutely positively know, um, that their church and the leader of their church is hanging a hard left.

And no, they can see it. They're willing, you know, they're not, he's not doing Pope's planning. Um, he knows the Pope is, um, well, someone sent me, uh, a screenshot. Like I said, he blocked me. Um, someone sent me a screenshot of him basically saying straight out this guy that Pope Francis is going to make a voting Cardinal, a Cardinal who will be voting for Francis's successor, um, is a straight up heretic.

Now I don't know what he's heretical about. Um, I'd say the vast majority of archbishops and bishops in the Roman Catholic church or would be identified as arch heretics by pretty much every century of Roman Catholicism from the council of Trent up till 50 years ago.

But so I'm not sure what his particular thing is. Um, but he was grousing because what's going on is Francis has released a list of names of what's 11 or 17. I forget what it was. Fair number of new Cardinals.

They're going to be getting that little Cardinal hat, which has nothing to do with baseball. And these are going to be key individuals who will determine the nature and the theological beliefs of the next Bishop of Rome.

I don't know if Francis is going to resign once he feels like he's got what he needs, that he's, you know, change stuff enough that the next guy along will continue this. But it's, you literally have to be closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and going, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, to, to, to escape the reality that Francis is openly publicly seeking to, uh, make sure that what's coming down the road is going to be a continuation of his intentions and his viewpoints, which inevitably will result in a very different Roman Catholic church.

Um, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, it's not the hard left. It's not the, I'm going to create a schism in the church tomorrow. Um, they've learned their lesson and they've looked to the liberalization of the mainstream Protestant churches.

How did they do it? How'd they do it over time? And how can we adjust that and make that work for us? And that's what they're doing. And so the Pope's planers just have to absolutely, um, just have to live in a fantasy world to say, well, no, the Pope hasn't changed anything.

But when you, when you listen to what he said recently, um, and he's, look, he's been pretty consistent on this since he became Pope. We all know that early on young kids sitting on his lap, you know, as my daddy in hell, because he was an atheist and, and well, if he had you baptized, no, we, you know, we don't think that's, you know, he did the right thing, even though he wasn't baptized.

I mean, it just goes completely against historic Roman Catholic teachings. There's kid wasn't making an argument that his dad experienced a baptism of desire by any stretch of imagination. He died as an inveterate atheist.

He didn't deny the existence of God. He did not repent. There was no, there's no inclusivism. He didn't make an act of, of faith toward God. Uh, well, but he did have his kids baptized. That's, that's an act of faith toward God.

I really seriously. Um, so he's had these views. He's a liberation theologian. This is what Catholicism is in South America. No one that that's not, that's not really arguable or disputable or anything like that.

And so he's been fairly, fairly consistent, but you know, here we are and he's, you know, all religions are paths to God and, and all this kind of stuff that he's just openly saying to people, yeah, but he's not defining it dogmatically.

He doesn't have to, he does not have to. If he keeps teaching it and if he keeps putting people in places of authority in the church, the papal office has tremendous power to form the fabric of the curia, the magisterium, and that filters down to the schools and the monasteries and, and everything.

And so if he's putting people in place that are going to be there long after he's gone, that share his views, then 20 years from now, we're not going to be having this conversation because it'll be a given.

No one, the Pope's planers will be way far in the left at that point, because this, this ground will already have been seated. That, that, that, that's all done. And so this isn't just a fascinating, uh, you know, recognition of, you know, we're not just sitting here going, you know, historically going, wow, this is a fascinating time of life to live where we're seeing a major world religion fundamentally changing in front of our eyes.

This is Roman Catholicism. Um, any of you, you know, as, as I mentioned earlier, if, if you, when I, when I taught on the Lord's Supper at Apology a couple of years ago, I had to mention over and over again, that as we're walking through what the London Mass Confession of Faith says on the Lord's Supper, the terminology is being used, assumes a background on the part of the reader.

And that that background is Roman Catholicism. It's, it's a, it's a denial of what Roman Catholicism teaches in regards to transubstantiation and regards to, uh, the, the, the fact that the mass is the same sacrifice of self, same sacrifice of Christ, but it doesn't perfect anyone.

Um, and only reformed men can make a strong argument biblically at that point. Arminian, who has a sacrifice of Christ, doesn't save anyone either, is compromised there. But these are key and central issues.

The Mass, Marian Dogmas, and the Reformed Critique of Rome

And so when, when you see that religion fundamentally changing its emphasis, then you recognize that the, the controversies that were taking place at the time of the Reformation, if, if liberation theology and its redefinition of so much in Roman Catholicism becomes the standard, which is what Francis is trying to do, then the nature of our interaction as believe Bible believing Christians with Roman Catholicism is going to change radically.

It's one thing, you know, I, I, I really appreciate, um, this debate that I have coming up because the individual on debating is a, evidently is more Roman Catholic than the Pope. And the majority of the Catholic apologists that I've debated in the past are more Roman Catholic than this Pope.

In fact, I, I, I've, I've thought a few times about a lot of those early debates and I've, I've thought to myself, what would that guy that I debated have said about Francis back then? If Francis had just been a, you know, a bishop as he was for a and you brought up his beliefs and things like that back in the, um, late 1990s, what would a lot of those apologists that I was debating have said about him then?

And what do they have to say today? Um, much has changed, much has changed. Uh, I haven't had to change as far as, you know, what I will, what I will present in the debate in Mobile at the end of this month will be almost word for word, what I wrote in The Fatal Flaw, my first book in 1990.

Um, I haven't changed. Hopefully it'll be deeper, um, something along those lines, you know, uh, but I haven't changed. Uh, the, the fundamental refutation of the mass is the Bible's teaching on what is actually accomplished in the death of Jesus Christ.

So as long as Rome claims that this is the self-same sacrifice of Christ, then you compare that to what the apostles taught that sacrifice accomplished. And there, there you go. Uh, so it can't be the only way to worship God because it's not what apostles taught.

God is about what the apostles taught about the sacrifice of Christ and therefore about the worship of, um, of God. So that's just how that works. So I don't have to change. I'm very thankful for that.

But like I said, I think the guy I'm debating is more Catholic than Francis. And I will raise the question in light of what Francis has recently said on his recent trips. Um, and what the Catholic catechism says in section 841, that the Muslims adore, uh, the one God of Abraham.

Um, what, what does that mean in regards to worship within Roman Catholicism? That's relevant to our, our top, our topic as well. So point is we can, we can back off from that for a moment and just go, we are in an incredible time period.

Um, and we're watching something that I get the feeling of a lot of folks don't have the patience to really think through because this is going to be something that's going to happen over decades. And a lot of modern individuals are, struggle to track things that are taking place over decades.

And so I, I, you know, I may not live long enough to see all of this come to fruition. Uh, but you younger folks will, and hopefully what you'll do is you'll think back, um, and, and be able to see that track because if, if that's effective within Roman Catholicism to bring about fundamental change, then in all probability, there will be people in your denominations that will attempt to use the same process.

That's how it was done to the Methodists. I remember my dad, I remember where he was in the kitchen in our old house up North of bell road. I remember him saying that he remembered back in the 1950s, rock ribbed Methodists who preached the gospel with power.

And you're just not going to encounter that anymore. Okay. Maybe, maybe over in, uh, you know, some of the African Methodists that have had to break off from the United Methodists and stuff like that.

But the point was it took, it took decades, but the change has been astonishing and there is no denomination. There is no school. There is no ministry that is outside of the possibility of that kind of attack.

And I think there'd be a lot of Roman Catholics that agree with me. Yes, the papacy is under attack. Francis is an example of that. And a lot of those people are going, and God will never allow it to happen.

And something miraculous is going to happen because we believe in the infallibility of the Pope and, and, you know, all the stuff that goes along with that. I've, I've encountered those folks and I feel for them.

I feel for them. I really, really do. Um, and I, I just want to explain to them, Hey, y 'all took a wrong turn a long time ago. And, uh, the only, the only way to get, get back into apostolic teaching is to go to the only thing we have from the apostles.

And the only thing we have from the apostles is found between the covers of this book. And you've, this is what you've got to go to. This is, this is where you have to have to come. And, um, Sola Scriptura, you know, and they automatically respond to that with, Oh, and, and, you know, uh, I got into a couple of conversations as a result of what I said about the Ave Maria stuff on the subject of Sola Scriptura.

And it all went back to the same old stuff. Anyway, um, keep your eyes open. I, this, uh, synod and synodality that's taking place in Rome right now, the, the outcome of that, I think will have far reaching ramifications and certainly the cardinals that he's putting in place far reaching ramifications in regards to, um, what's, what's going to happen with the future.

Christian Nationalism, Sacralism, and Fractures Among the Reformed

Well, all right here toward the end of the program, we've got about 20 minutes left. Um, I, I do not want to talk about things like this, but there's, we, we, in a sense, social media has put churches, organizations, ministers in significantly closer.

I'd like to say communion, but probably be a bit too positive of a thing. Oh, and by the way, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Uh, where did I put that? Uh, where did I put that? Oh, drat. I thought I, yeah. Okay.

Here's a Francis thing. The world is made up of many different realities that are diverse precisely so they can assist and complete each other. When they're harmonized all generations, peoples, and differences can reveal the wonderful splendor of humanity and creation.

Talk about new age mumbo jumbo. Um, but he made a comment and where, what did I, man, I thought I had bookmarked it. I guess I didn't. Sorry about that. He, um, uh, he used the phrase Semper Reformanda and I, I commented on it and said, we'll talk about this on, on the program.

And I said, I wish I could read this a little bit more, uh, positively, but yeah, and I didn't, I didn't bookmark it. My fault. Don't know where it went. Um, just really quickly, don't, don't read anything more into that than, than you need to.

Um, a lot of Roman Catholics were like, what? That's a, that's a reformed thing. And unfortunately many in the reform community now are, Oh, that's a Bart thing. Um, a lot of people commented on it. Like where in the world is that coming from?

And I don't think it's really has almost any meaning at all outside of the fact that, uh, he doesn't mean by Semper Reformanda what we mean by that. And he is illustrating, um, that that's a reflection of his statement earlier about, um, conservatives.

Remember the, remember the, uh, interview that he had with, um, I forget what it was. It was a 60 minutes, might've been 60 minutes. And, and he reacted so strongly the term conservative and they're holding to the past and, and, and almost fundamentalistic way.

And, and that's what he's talking about. He's using that phrase as a mechanism for defending his own, uh, rather radical, um, viewpoints and rather radical pontificate. But I thought I'd save that. Um, oh, well, I, um, I guess I didn't.

And, um, so back to what I was saying, we, over the past, um, number of months, really going back to two sweater vest dialogues I did with Doug Wilson, um, my concerns about Christian nationalism and especially the Stephen Wolfian view of Christian nationalism, uh, have been confirmed, I believe, uh, over the past, but it's been over a year since we did those programs.

And, uh, I have really in my mind clarified much of what my concerns back then were in regards to sacralism and regards to, um, the nature of terms like Christendom. And Christendom has now become a popular term amongst reform guys, get Christendom, new Christendom press and conferences on Christendom and, and Christendom 1 .0 and Christendom 2 .0.

And these are conversations we were not having, um, uh, 15, 20 years ago, we weren't having them five years ago. Some people started to, but well, yeah, six, 2018. So around that time period anyway, and the result of all of this is that fractures have developed amongst reform people.

So that in 2023, uh, Dr. Joe Booth of the Ezra Institute, uh, for which I am a honored to be a fellow, he and I spoke at a conference with Joel Webbin's group, Right Response Ministries in Texas. And, you know, we're talking about post-colonialism, we're talking about, uh, the need to call magistrates to repentance.

I preached out of Acts when, when Paul's preaching on repentance and godliness and doing that to government leaders. And, and, you know, all that was not very long ago. Um, but next year there's a conference, uh, defeating trash world, I think is what it's called.

Uh, I think Christendom's in the title somewhere. And, uh, Jeff Durbin was going to be speaking there. He's not now, uh, primarily because Stephen Wolfe is speaking there. And, uh, Stephen Wolfe, um, uses languages like moronic and stupid, uh, to describe people who do not accept his political philosophies.

And he is primarily a political philosopher. Um, and so, you know, he subtweets me all the time and, and Jeff's like, I'm, you know, I'm not going to provide any kind of support to someone who treats my fellow elder in that way.

And, and so he's not going to be there, but there's going to be lots of folks who will be. And it's an illustration of how in basically less than two years, there has been a fracture and a division. Now I would, I would point to the fact that, uh, Stephen Wolfe's views on Christian nationalism, I don't see how they are at all consistent with someone who is a theonomic post-millennialist.

Presuppositionalist because he's a natural law to mystic sacralist. He has said plainly, you do not need to have massive regeneration for Christian nationalism to take place. You just need Christian princes.

And, you know, this, this does take us right back to foundational principles. Um, you know, Wolfe goes after Joe boot, he goes after me, he goes after Jeff Durbin. And it's one thing to have meaningful disagreements.

It's another thing to use language like the utter stupidity, moronic, you know, that kind of stuff. That's, that's just not really interested in playing well with others. And so I, I consider Stephen Wolfe an opponent.

Um, there are some people who, you know, at a G3 last year, uh, in the pre-conference, um, Owen Strand made it very clear. He views Stephen Wolfe as a white nationalist. And, you know, I couldn't prove that though.

Since then, I've seen things that do make me go, uh, I'm not sure why he said that or why he's promoting this or that or the other thing. So this is a situation that we are facing today and navigating it is a, is a real challenge.

Last week, a podcast dropped from Joel Webbin and another gentleman from his church talking about the great meme controversy. And this was the meme that, um, I had heard about, but didn't say anything about.

Doug Wilson likewise heard about it and he did mention it on Blogamayblog. And when he mentioned it, I saw people responding to that. And so I then, uh, supported what he said. It was the, it was the one where the young girl asks mommy, mommy, what was the Holocaust?

And mommy's response is, uh, the Holocaust is when the Jews were forced to do manual labor and they said it was killing them. And, uh, Doug had made, you know, Doug's commentary on that, uh, recognized that a person who would either produce the meme, share the meme, find the meme humorous.

Um, this person's not questioning historical issues. You have to, you just, and this is, this is what was missed in my opinion by Joel and his, uh, co-interlocutor. I'm sorry, I don't have them in front of me.

It was some of his church. I think it was fellow elder, I think, um, in their conversation. And that was, it was presented as if this individual, because this had happened in Joel's church, this individual who had not posted the meme on Twitter, but had shared the meme with his former pastor, Tobias Riemenschneider from Frankfurt, Germany.

Um, this person was presented as someone who's just asking questions about the post-war consensus. Now, even Joel admitted he had never even heard the phrase post-war consensus till about a year and a half ago, reading a particular book.

Uh, it is amazing how certain, um, phrases and certain things end up becoming so quickly popular that no one had ever even heard of before. Um, that's very, very concerning to me, uh, by the way, things are happening way too fast.

But anyway, uh, the idea was presented, this, this, this guy's just asking questions about the post-war consensus. And I've heard the post-war consensus defined as Hitler's everything. If you disagree with somebody, Hitler, Hitler, bad.

This, if you, if you, this, that's Hitler, that's Hitler. If that's the definition of post-war consensus, it's, it's irrelevant. It doesn't have any meaning. Um, we can talk about post-war consensus in regards, there's post, the term has been used theologically ever since World War II, you can't even preach on certain passages that speak about the Jews.

So there's a theological post-war consensus. There would be a political post-war consensus. There's, there's a lot of different ways of applying it. But anyway, what was said was this guy is just asking questions.

I'm sorry. I don't buy that. I don't accept it. Um, what's obvious to me is that if you're, and this is what I first addressed, this is what caused people to come out of the woodwork, people to, uh, face, uh, FaceTime, not FaceTime, Photoshop my face, uh, and make me an, uh, a rabbi and people in the neo-Nazi realm.

And cause I've followed some rabbit trails in Twitter into some dark places. And there are a lot of dark places in social media. I'm sure there are in Facebook and every place else. I just don't use them, but you, you follow enough threads and you end up in some, some very dark places.