Cultish: Rescued From White Supremacy

The One who created the universe made a creation in His own image and after His own likeness.

That's the Adam -kind creation. That is everyone that bears the

Adamic image. The color of that skin is white.

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, Entering the Kingdom of the Cults. My name is

Jeremiah Roberts. I'm one of the co -hosts here. If you're like me, you are probably still trying to find out where your jaw is because it probably hit the floor somewhere as you heard that.

That's exactly what happened to me when I heard that clip. Andrew, the super sleuth, super sleuth of the show.

What's going on with you, man? How are you? I'm doing well. I'm just trying to pick up my jaw from that, too. It's crazy, man.

Yes. I'm glad you found that clip. That's kind of the perfect introduction. We are here with Sarah Bruce.

How are you? Good. How are you? Good. I want to bring people real quickly into how we met.

We only know kind of the bits and pieces of it, so I'm excited to see where this conversation goes. It was a couple of weeks ago.

As we know, we are a ministry under the umbrella of Apologia Studios, one of the other organizations as part of Apologia is

End Abortion Now, where we do ministry at abortion clinics. We just happened to be out there doing ministry.

You were out there with your husband, and you recognized me, and you said, Hey, Jeremiah, you're the guy that does cultish and stuff.

You essentially, almost at the very beginning of our podcast intro, when you hear that clip from The Path, where I hear,

My name is Eddie, and I was in a cult. That's basically how you introduced yourself. Yeah.

My name is Sarah, and I was in a cult. Maybe not as dramatic, but yeah, you were excited to be out there.

I was really intrigued right away, because that's right when you had, it was right around the time when you kind of introduced and kind of told me your story about, we're going to kind of jump into your cult and organization that you're part of in a moment.

It was the, real quickly, it's the Church of Israel. That's what you were a part of. That's what you grew up in, correct?

Yes. Okay, and what, till like what age were you in it? Yeah, so I left the church when

I was about 13 or 14. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so it was still a huge part of your life.

Yes, definitely. Okay, and so yeah, I think what I was going to say too, is I think it was right around when everything, right around when everything started with George Floyd, and that's when everything was just a powder keg kind of waiting to unfold, and there's a whole bunch of things that led up to that, which is a whole other discussion.

But yeah, so let's just jump into it. So really what you said to me that's intrigued me, because we've gotten messages to talk about the

Hebrew Israelites, and that's something we definitely have had interest in doing, especially even now considering that people, a cult, one of the things they always do is they take a current crisis, and they use that as a grounds to recruit.

And so I think a lot of the things going on right now would be really propaganda tools that the

Hebrew Israelites could use to recruit, especially with all the ideas of white privilege, white guilt, and the ideas of reparations, and then sort of taking these issues that are real legitimate issues of justice that need to be addressed, but taking it as a way to recruit into their specific organization.

But what you told me that really intrigued me, and you can expound upon this, so it's the

Church of Israel, the guy, the clip that we played from was someone named Pastor Dan Gaiman.

And funny, so this clip, this audio clip is from February 29, 2020. Yeah, so this is very, very recent.

But you said essentially, so the word, real quick, so right now it's funny how words get thrown around a lot in today's culture.

It really kind of has this, I mean, words are really just sort of meant for impact without really necessarily meaning it.

So the word white supremacy, it feels at this point in time that especially when it comes on the political spectrum, a lot of people on the left, it's almost as if, how do

I say it, tell me if you agree or not, it seems that it's almost anything that I don't like or disagree with, somehow that becomes white supremacy.

Yeah, definitely. This is the background where you said essentially the Church of Israel, it's like the

Hebrew Israelites, except instead of black dominance, which is the predominant part of their theology, it's white supremacy and that they're

God's chosen people, as he just stated in that clip that we played. Yeah. So I'm setting the foundation.

Just tell us about, just yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so I'm Sarah Bruce.

So I'm from Detroit, Michigan. Yeah. And so I lived about a half an hour from Detroit. And when I was seven,

I started going to a church and the church wasn't actually part of the Church of Israel, but we were there every day.

Like my mom and I would babysit there and we were just really connected with the church. And the quote unquote secretary of the church was part of the

Church of Israel. And so he was just a single guy. And so basically every day of my life, he would just be there with my mom and I every day.

And so he would take us out to eat and he would just talk to me all day, all the time.

And yeah, it really messed with my head as a little kid because I didn't really understand because I knew that a lot of what he said was wrong, but I couldn't really wrap my head around what he was saying a lot of the time.

So he'd tell me things like, the only people are white people, like flat out.

Like he'd say that the beasts of the field are all of the other races. So he...

The only people are white people. Yes. Yeah. So the only people. So he was very, you know, you'd say he's pro -Israel, but what he would mean by that was that he was pro -white supremacy.

So I grew up being confused even about the Holocaust. So he actually told me that all of the

Jews in Israel today are... Because Kezar is like Russians. And so none of them are actual blood

Jews. So basically there was the 12 tribes and they all descended from European countries.

So there's 12 European countries that are Israel. And so like those from Germany are from the tribe of Judah.

It's the same lineage as Jesus. So like Hitler and all the Germans. The Aryan stuff going on.

So they were the Jews that were killing Russians because they weren't real Jews.

So they were just doing God's work because they weren't people. Yeah. So I just, you know,

I kind of was like, that has to be wrong, but I don't know what's true and what's not true. So just tell me, so at the age when you're hearing, you're taking this, all this information, what age are you at this point?

I'm about 11 to about age 13 or 14. Wow. It's like a whirlwind. I want to back up a little bit too.

So you said something about the beasts of the field and that the only real humans are white. What did that doctrine come from?

How did it develop? Yeah. So he believes something called serpent seed theology. And so basically

Lucifer, Satan and Eve created Cain. So the first sin was sexual union.

And so that produced Cain. So Eve had sexual union with Lucifer and it produced

Cain. Yes. Oh, wow. And that's where the rest of these races came from. Yeah. So it wasn't from the

Adamic like we heard from Dan Gaiman's speech. It was from a Luciferian bloodline.

Right. Wow. Yeah. And so he told me, he's like, oh, you know, look at the Hebrew. It says it in the Hebrew. And, you know, so I'm looking up the word fruit in a lexicon and I'm like, oh, okay.

Song of Solomon talks about fruit and, you know, bearing fruit and it's not actual fruit. It's talking about sexuality.

So, you know, maybe that's true. And, you know, no idea. Yeah. Different literature and genres and stuff.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So also you grew up, you said, right outside of Detroit.

Yes. Tell me about the demographic. What's the ethnic demographic of Detroit growing up?

Tell me about that. Because I'm sure just from what I know about it, it seemed when you told me, it seemed like given this theology.

Yeah. And it'd be kind of a unique setting especially. Right. Given Detroit.

But just tell me about the demographic of Detroit. No, definitely. Yeah. Two things come to mind. There's like gospel tracts that are like million dollar bills, you know, and I could pass those out pretty much anywhere,

I feel like, in America and people would just take them like normal. But in Detroit, it's like. So you're talking about like way of the mass.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I could give those tracts pretty much anywhere. But if I go downtown

Detroit, it's like, you're a white person. You're giving me what looks like a million dollars.

You know, you're just doing that because I'm black. And it's just that kind of demographic of, you know, like you think you're better than me because you're white.

And so there's that kind of a tension already just from being there. And then I remember doing like, you know, quote unquote, missions trips to Detroit, even though it was only half an hour away.

And we would go through cultural training. Like they call it cultural training and explain.

The Church of Israel will do mission trips to Detroit. No, no, like just other churches that I was connected with. Yeah, no, that's good that they didn't.

But no, like my point is that they would basically train you how to work with people from Detroit because it's so different culturally than what you're used to.

And so that's just kind of the demographic of it's very tense, you know, when you're there. What would be some of the examples of training?

So this would be the train that you did later on after you left that. Yeah. But this will give an idea.

I think this would give an idea of what Detroit was like, because this is the area in which you grew up in.

Yeah. What would be some of the training that you would do preparing to do?

Really, was it the inner city? Yeah. Kind of where that is. Give us some examples of what the training was like.

Yeah. So we'd work with like inner city kids. And so they'd tell us that when they worked with like kids with like baby dolls and things like that and just normal toys, that they'd say if there was a black baby doll, then she was automatically bad.

And then if you had like a white baby doll, she was automatically good. That's just how they think. And so you need to be careful because they just automatically like, you know, you go into a playground and all the little kids want to come and feel your hair and they want it because they just think you're beautiful.

It doesn't matter if you are or not. Like they're just because you're white. It's like, oh, you must be good. And that's kind of the mindset that you need to get out of.

And that was, you know, kind of what I was taught. Yeah. I mean, I think I experienced that a little bit. I went to Kenya, Africa for about two weeks and you can look at me.

I kind of, when I went to this one school for about two weeks, kind of like helping do this whole project at this one

Christian school over there. I mean, they were like, oh, who's that guy? Yeah. Paying attention to me and stuff like that.

But yeah, that's, that's definitely very intriguing for sure. And that's all it seems that that's always the case whenever, you know, you're a missionary going to some going somewhere.

And in fact, you and your husband are actually part right now. You're training to be missionaries.

So need to say the story has a happy ending. Where are you guys headed out right now? Where are you guys eventually training to go to right now?

Papua New Guinea. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So total like lifestyle change, you know, that I can get into.

Yeah. Cause the whole reason we want to go there is because they, you know, they have no Bible in their language. They have no access to scripture and they're begging for scripture.

And I remember just kind of like thinking, I don't know if I can even share the gospel with people that aren't white because I don't,

I don't know. You know, there's a risk that maybe the cult is right and maybe I'm wasting my time.

So, yeah. Wow. Okay. So let me ask you this. So you're it's, it's interesting too, that you're like, they're giving you this information, really trying to indoctrinate you.

I mean, I almost, some of the things when I was just looking at the timelines and just one of the websites you said of another couple who had left what were the names again?

That Tim and Sarah. Yes. Yeah. You know, just some of the things that they're saying in this interview that you had sent me, it sounded very, almost like part and parcel to Megan Phelps who defected from Westboro Baptist and, and kind of growing up in that area where there's still a lot of really hatred for almost anyone who's outside of their group.

And even, even a lot of, you know, really like a hate group and you see like the young children when it's like, thank

God for dead soldiers. And, and I mean, that's almost a prominent thing when people talk about Christian extremism, they immediately go, excuse me, they, they immediately go to Westboro Baptist and it always is sad seeing, you know, the kids out there that are there regurgitating the exact same thing.

So as far as your group, what was, I would say like, so like being young in there, like when you first started hearing this, were you, were you receptive?

You said, were you, were you receptive of it right away or it wasn't until later when you're 11 years old? Cause you said it was seven until 14 years old.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but I mean, I mean, obviously you're, you're, as you're growing, you're in a very developmental stage, right?

But is there a point where even as a young child, you started really believing this, you know, being seven, nine years old?

Yeah. Kids are very intuitive. Right. Especially. Yeah. No, I remember one specific instance. Like I don't think that people really knew whether I was grasping things or not because you know, sometimes

I just sit there and not pay attention cause he just go on rants and just on and on. And so I remember, um, there's one specific time like just crying, like just bawling my eyes out.

I was probably like nine or 10 and I was just telling my mom, like just kind of confessing sins to her.

And I, um, I told her that like there was a girl at the playscape that I didn't want to play with.

Like there was nobody else there. And I was like, I don't want to play with her. And I'm, you know, really social.

I want to play with everybody. And she's like, well, why didn't you want to play with her? And I was just like, cause she's black.

Like, and my whole thought was like, I want to share the gospel and I don't know if I can. And I don't know if it'll do any good.

And so then I just remember like, just knowing that that was wrong, like confessing it as a sin, but like still just being confused.

Yeah. So, and then I remember, um, later, but kind of after I got out of the church. So, um, when

I was about 13 or 14, I kind of like, I started going to a different church part of the time, but I'd still go back.

And so I remember actually going in like a high school group, like a youth group and asking everybody where they were from.

I was like, where are you from? Is that in Europe? Where are you from? Is that in Europe? And just like trying to figure out like,

Oh, what tribe would they be from? Like, hypothetically, if this is true. And, um, I just remember them just looking at me, like, why does it matter?

Like, why are you freaking out? And just trying to figure out like, Oh, you're from this tribe and this tribe. And cause

I'd read books. Like he just gave me books and I just devour them. And he'd have full books on like, like Dan Gaiman has a book called the

Anglo Israel thesis. And he talks about how it's so laughable, but he goes through like all 12 tribes and why they are

European countries. So like, and I just remember his reasoning, which is so ridiculous, like looking back at it.

Which is so crazy because that it's literally the Hebrew Israelites use the exact same arguments.

Yeah. Yeah. But the roles essentially are reversed. Right. No. Yeah. I remember he literally said in his book, his argument for the tribe of Judah being

Germany was that at one point, Germany had a flag with a lion on it. So therefore the tribe of Judah, you know, lions.

So therefore that's Germany. That's perfect. Right. So, so they, so they believe that essentially that, that black people cannot be saved.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just black people. It's if you're not, it's not white. Right. If you're not a descendant, even if you are technically white, but you're not a descendant from one of the tribes.

So, yeah. So would it be even people specifically who are not just the ethnicity of your skin, but do you have to be, to have to be specifically a part of the church of Israel?

So only people who in the church of Israel are the ones who are saved. Yeah. So I don't like, you don't have to specifically go to the church, but it's the bloodline of like, you have to be of one of the 12 tribes.

So I remember probably the worst scripture distortion that I remember actually believing until pretty far, like maybe

I was 14 or 15 is, and I mean, it just kind of scared me was in revelation.

I think it's 21 where it talks about the 12 gates that you can enter in into heaven.

And he said explicitly that he's like, and keep in mind, he's King James only. Like if you got saved out of NIV or ESV, you're not a

Christian. Okay. Okay. King James only just, but he said that it says if you are not one of the people from the 12 tribes that you can enter, because it says only those that have that enter in through the 12 tribes can be saved.

So that always confused me. I was like, well, you know, it says that like 12 tribes, 12 gates, like you can only enter if you're one of the people in the 12 gates.

Wow. Well, you know, you know, it makes me wonder, I'm thinking like, well, what's the prerequisite then to just claim that you're part of the 12 tribes.

Do you got to show them your ancestry .com like bloodline test or like what, what do they say about people who obviously there's, there's many black churches.

There's other ethnic churches around the world where people are claiming Jesus Christ is Lord. Yeah. Like what, what did they say about those people?

They just say, well, that's the ones where it's like, they say, Lord, Lord, but he says, depart from me. I never knew you. Is that the reasoning? Yeah. Yeah.

No, I remember, um, he, he put out a Facebook post, the guy that I was raised with and he, um, you know, the movie war room that came out.

Yeah. Like a movie on prayer. Yeah. I remember him just putting out a Facebook post, just ripping it and, you know, he didn't watch it, didn't know anything about it, but he was literally just ripping the movie and saying that they can't be

Christian because everybody in the movie is black. Like that's his only reasoning. Like he just sees the cover and is like,

Nope. Wow. It's a Satan. Okay. Yeah. So, so I'm still like, so they basically, so to be, if I wanted to join their church,

I guess, you know, at least I would meet some of the prerequisites here. I mean, we're being realistic here.

This is part of like who they are, but, um, it would, I would have to acknowledge that they, so they'd have to trade, they would have to confirm somehow

I'm part of the lineage of the 12 tribes. So what's interesting too, like how would they, so like Mormon, like the

Mormons, for example, they own all the genealogies in the world pretty much. And so, but they do it specifically for baptism of the dead.

Yeah. So what would be, I don't know, just what's the process of membership when someone would try and join the church of Israel?

Like how, what does that look like? Yeah. So I believe that it has to do definitely with ancestry.

And so you have to have, it's so crazy because they'll get the gospel right in its like fundamental state, you know?

So they'd say, you know, that you have to acknowledge your sin. You have to understand that you've lied, you've stolen, you've broken

God's law and you need a savior, you know, and Jesus died and rose again. So you have to put your faith and trust in Christ and they'd say, you know, they'd give all that to you from King James only, of course.

So it has to, you have to be saved through Christ alone. They'd say not through works. It's everything right.

It's just, it has to be through a King James Bible and it has like your skin has to be white and you know, you have to, you have to have some kind of ancestry.

And I remember talking to him about it. Like, you know, I was like, what if you're partially from the tribes?

Like he's like, no, like you have to be completely from the tribes. Like you can be from two different tribes, you know, you can be from Germany and France, but you can't have, you know, that African grandfather.

Yeah. So is it predominantly there? Like you said, they are, they're watching the trailer from the war room.

They said, well, none of these people are Christian because they're black. Yeah. How would they feel about Hispanics and Asians and other races?

I mean, sometimes when you talk about, you know, I mean, I went to criminal justice, I went to, I was initially going to college for criminal justice studies and we were talking about the complexity and sometimes the nuance of hate, of hate crimes and how do you even define that depending on which, you know, if you have a, if you have black on black crime versus, you know, even especially like right now, the huge emphasis with, you know, where everyone gets really upset is when there is a white cop that kills a black man.

And even those instances, those are, those are tragic and those are horrifying. It's an image bearer of God that gets snuffed out.

It seems that that's the big emphasis, but the other black on black crime, for example, that doesn't seem to be really part of the discussion right now.

That's just an example. But how do they feel about like, when it comes to the issue of race, how does the church of Israel feel about like other people who are not black?

So let's just say Jewish, like Jewish people from India, you know, people who are from Pakistan, like what has that come up?

Has Dan Gaiman, has he ever gave talks about that? Yeah, I believe so.

So they have a specific hatred for Jews because they don't believe that they're actually Jews because they're the real

Jews. And it's crazy, like just listening to his audio CDs. He has an audio series that I listened to on Pilgrim's Progress and it's like just, oh yeah, you know, he's white and it's so creepy.

You know, it just, it's a cult, like it just sounds like a cult. Pilgrim's Progress is one of my favorite literature growing up.

I know. No, my husband proposed to me with it. Like it's mine too. But no, like just the way that he went about it was so sickening.

And I remember him, it was like every other sentence, I felt like he was just like Israelites, you know, just like referring to whoever's listening, but meaning this is like my church alone.

And so, yeah, for any other races, it's more of an apathy. Like it's kind of like a hatred for Jews and then, you know, just kind of an apathy unless they try to be

Christian. So like if somebody from another race is trying to be Christian, there's all of a sudden this like, you're not a person, but if they're just like walking down the street, it's, it's so sick.

So this, this guy, he, he, he lived in my pastor's basement and he knew my pastor had all these dogs.

And so he'd always give this example with other races. He'd say like, you know, they own a pug and you know,

I'd rather another dog. It's not that I hate the pug. I just like this other dog better. And so, you know, it's like all the other races are just pugs.

Like, it's not that I hate them. It's just, you know, I like the other one better. And he'd say he's against slavery.

I'm like, okay, that's good. But, but it's just, it's not because he cares.

Like he doesn't, it's not against slavery because he cares. It's just like an apathy. Like I wouldn't care enough to, cause they're not,

I don't know. They're not human. Yeah. They're not human. So just whatever. And I used to be terrified that like people would poison our food or something because we'd go out.

I don't know why like I was allowed to do this, but him, he would pick me up at like two or three in the morning with my pastor.

And we just go out like in the middle of the night and to like steak and shake or something and just talk theology. But we'd go to like Detroit and you know, everybody's serving us is black and you know, the whole place, we're like the only white people and he's just spewing this stuff.

And I'm like, I'm terrified, you know? It's crazy. Yeah. What's making me think too, like how do they keep their, their bloodline going?

Like I could be thinking off in the wrong direction, but it sounds like like incest might be a real thing there. Yeah. No, I would say so.

Probably. I'm very against like interracial marriage. Yeah. I was just going to say, did you ever witness anything about people who either kind of within the church of Israel, like considering, were there ever any instance where say some like an example of interracial marriage happens where like the couple's in love, but then it's all this almost like a

Romeo and Juliet. You have these two separate households, but no, you can't do that.

There was there ever like a level of shunning leading to try and keep someone in conformity to this, to this a serpency doctrine.

And to kind of really, they would say to her, I'm assuming they would probably fight for a purity of the church, but when they look at purity, they look at the, the skin color of everyone in the bloodline pure.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know of any specific instances, but I'm sure that that was definitely the case. I know that in my church there was interracial marriage and there's really just one couple that was in the church where it was clear, clearly interracial and he just would not talk to them really just kind of had this weird, you know, it was just like, he wasn't mean to them, but there was just this uneasiness, you know, and it was just disturbing, you know?

So with you said that the, the guy that we played the very beginning Dan game and he mentioned his audio series and Pilgrim's Progress and sort of taking this amazing narrative, which is supposed to be, it's almost a book that applies universally.

It's been printed in there. The irony of that Pilgrim's Progress, aside from the Bible, I think it's one of the few pieces of literature that's been printed, translated into the most amount of languages and has been really a blessing for Christians all around the world from every single tongue, tribe and nation.

One of the things that cults do is they take something that's meant for good and they twist it towards their own narrative for sure.

But when it comes to like pastor Dan game and like how, how did, is he the one who sort of formulated the church of Israel?

Is he the one that kind of started it? Yeah. Tell me about how he began this whole thing. Like what's the, what's the, what do you know about the origin story behind that?

Yeah. So I know that it's in Missouri. And so that's the only church that I know of. I'm pretty sure the only one in the

U S that's part of the church of Israel. And so I know that just everything that I've learned about him is that it's just kind of like this pride and arrogance of like my races, right?

Like I want my race to be superior. I want everything to be, you know, how I want it to be. And I've seen that, especially with the

King James only. Like I think it was more of like a fundamentalist kind of thing that kind of ended up in more than like a fundamentalist independent

Baptist kind of thing that just kind of took overboard when I know like reading his books, he just started out with more of like,

Oh, this is a bunch of really good history on, you know, the, the European culture and then just kind of took that to like,

Oh wait, no, there's these lost tribes. And then I'm just going to create my own theory just cause I want to. Yeah. You know, wow.

Conspiracy that turned cold. Yeah, definitely. So what does, cause you know, we talk about a lot of times, cults will even have their own distorted view, not only of the world, the nature of man, they'll twist the

Bible, but they'll always twist to authentic history as well too.

Yeah. World War II. What is, uh, what would

Dan Gaiman's kind of say his whole take on that? Because I mean, I've been, I've been to the

Holocaust museum. I've seen that. Um, and we fought a whole world war over, over this.

I mean, you think about the movies like Schindler's List and, and things that, and that really seeing, looking to the heart, really of evil that people still to this day, they see images of that and then you see like the lines of empty shoes or if you watch the scenes from like Schindler's List, you think about the haunting image of the girl, the little girl in the red dress, um, so forth and so on.

But how does he take and interpret it? I mean, I mean with all the Europeans thing, like how, how does he take and interpret an event like that?

Yeah. So, um, very much so like Germans were the good guys cause they're Jews and I mean all the way.

So the Germans, so in there, like Nazi Germany, they were the real, they were the real Jews. Yes. Yeah.

And so they were, they were killing people that weren't actually Jews. So it's fine cause they're, they're not people in the world.

Yeah. And so, yeah. Wow. That makes me even think of like abortion right now. Like what would his stance be on that?

Like with Margaret Sanger being pretty much a racist, you know, is like that's something where they're like, well, abortion is good in that case.

If a black, black babies are dying or people who aren't part of the 12 tribes in his, you know, interpretation of it, this wild, wild haired theory, that's a good thing just to murder these people.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, he's pro -life, but I could see how there's, you know, aspects of it where it's like,

I just inconsistency because if you, like you're saying, if you would take it to that extent, I mean, it makes sense that it would be a good thing.

Dan Gaiman's pro -life. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. Which it said, that's just so bizarre.

Like, how do you make, like, what, what would you say to me? And with this sort of theology, this is why, you know, we always talk about like bad theology hurts people.

Okay. Just so you just, you know, too, we've always said this before. We might even make a

T -shirt of you going like this, maybe like a sticker, one of those like reflective stickers, where it's like Andrew has his idea, but whenever Andrew has a great idea, he's always goes like this.

It's not really an idea. I'm just thinking real quick. I bet you his reasoning is something like this. Well, life is white.

Life is Israel. So I'm pro -life anything other than that's not really life anyways.

So I bet you that's like a type of reasoning. It's not human. It doesn't matter. It's just a bi -human.

It's part Eve, but the Luciferian bloodline. So I bet you anything that's what his pro -life goes about.

Like that's the weird presupposition underneath it. If you try to make him stay consistent, that just seems like it's the only route he has.

It's not life anyways. It's not human. It's Lucifer. Well, just real quickly, even the fact that I mean, a huge majority of the

Planned Parenthood clinics are put in minority neighborhoods. So what would his moral outcry, if he had any, be against that?

Is it just the white unborn babies that are being killed? I mean, being consistent, yeah.

I mean, it's terrible to think about, but definitely. And I just remember, you know, the guy

I was raised with, like he'd pass out tracks and stuff. And then afterwards, sometimes he'd just be like, oh, it doesn't matter.

And it would take me a minute and I'm like, oh, okay. That person was Asian or that person was

Hispanic or whatever. And it's just like, you know, he just gives a track and then it's just like, oh, he just realized that they're not white.

So it doesn't matter. So, I mean, this is, so when you're growing up in this, and this is seven to 14, but it's amazing too, how observant.

I mean, even people can be during those ages. I mean, even some of the, you know, we talked with Brielle Decker, who is

Warren Jeff's 65th wife. And, I mean, she has predominant memories of like going, growing up in the

FLDS and same with like other members. And Megan Phelps has predominant memories, like in those age ranges and things like that.

So, you know, you pick up a lot of things going on. Did you ever kind of see where it's like, there's a difference between kind of speaking to the yes men, but then you have controversial conversations.

So would there be, because I mean, you're in Detroit with a very, a lot of diversity there and complexity is there and a lot of racial tensions.

Yeah. Between the time there, do you see conversations taking place between them and people of other ethnicities?

And if so, like how did those conversations transpire? Yeah. Like any conversations that he would have with like other people,

I could just tell that it was just kind of like awkward and uncomfortable. Like it was just kind of like this apathy and just weirdness.

And it's like, you know, you wouldn't notice it unless you knew probably. But there's just kind of like this, he was so King James only too, that just kind of like pushing that.

And it took me a while to realize to connect the dots, to see like why King James only, why all this stuff.

And it got to me that it's just like this Elizabethan kind of like, oh, it looks like the

Bible came from America or Europe or, you know what I mean? Just like that kind of mindset of like just white, white, just everything.

And so it's just like anything, like everybody and everything that wasn't that was just like apathy.

Wow. So, yeah. So how did he get around passages like, or how would they get around passages like Galatians 3 .28?

There's neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free nor is there male and female for all for you all are a one in Christ Jesus, or even like Romans 11 talking about the

Gentiles being grafted in. Like how did they get around those passages? Yeah. I mean, he was just telling me that it's allegorical.

Like he would say, oh, you know, there, there is man and there is woman. So there is race, you know?

So, you know, it can't be just, there's, you know, there's no race in Christ. There's no male and female because we do have gender, you know, we do have race.

So, and it was so crazy. He used to quote all these passages of scripture and I would just like look at them and I'm like, it's not exactly what he said, you know, like he'd have, um, like the woman at the well and, um, he'd, he'd say, he's like, that's my favorite passage.

I'm like, what? Like the woman of Samaria, like not a Jew that Jesus is talking to.

Yeah. And he would just be like, oh no, it's just so beautiful. And it's just so great. And you know, we know that they were just really

Jews. Like it wasn't like, you just had a twisted understanding of everything. So he would say the woman in Samaria, because the context of John chapter four is that the

Samarians were, were not only non -Jews. It's almost that the Jewish people at that time looked at Samarians almost as people that like weren't even people.

Right. That's how, and that's the context is that you have Jesus in John chapter three talking to like the

Pharisee of Pharisees, Nicodemus, who's afraid of what other people think about Jesus. That's why he meets with him at night.

That's right. And then, right. So you have that. So then like the very next chapter, you're dealing with the most polar opposite person you could think of.

The Samaritan woman. And, but he would say that, oh, well, the

Samaritan person is actually Jewish, even though the Jewish people hated and shunned them.

Yeah. No, I feel like it's one of the strongest passages against him. Yeah. And he would always say that like, you know, oh,

John four, it's one of my favorite. And he would always quote, like, you know, Jesus said, you know, I've only come for the lost sheep of Israel.

Like I'm only for the house of the sheep of Israel. Yeah. And sheep are white. Essentially. Right. Yeah.

Well, here's the thing too, is like, what, what would he do with a passage like Revelation seven, verse 10 talking about people from every trunk tongue tribe and nation, you know, and just talking about everyone from all different tribes, all different ethnicity is like, how would he look at something like that?

Every European tongue type of nation. I mean, honestly, that's, that's how you would take it. It's just all 12 tribes because, you know, he would take just this wrong, obviously view of the old

Testament where it's just like only the 12 tribes, he would take passages that talk about like only

Israel being saved and saying that that connects to the new Testament. Like there's no inclusion of Gentiles.

It's just only the Jews. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So another question

I have, and this, it reminds me earlier what you were talking about when you were young and you, you were struggling about almost that it was sinful to view this, you know, like faith like a child is like sort of like an instance a child has in the sense that you just see this as another person you want to play with, you know, and just sort of hang out with and you just were struggling to reconcile this doctrine just as a, as someone who was even 10 years old at that time.

Like I remember growing up in Northern California and even the church, the church

I went to and it was like up in the mountains and I was just sort of, you know, I was real, I remember I was really into baseball and the

Oakland A's, I'm actually wearing Oakland A's hat right now. They were my team from California. And so I would go to the library and I'd try and pick up whatever book that I could.

And so I really did not know anything about the civil rights movement or that people treated people that way.

And so I remember I picked up this book called stealing home, the story of Jackie Robinson and Jackie Robinson was the first African American player to play in major league baseball.

And I remember just one being reading this book as a young, as a young boy.

And cause you know, I'd just read, I was reading up on Babe Ruth, you know, Babe Ruth and just all these other baseball legends.

My mind's running blank. It's been, it's been forever. I'm not that much into baseball as I was. And so I think it was

Willie Mays. I think so. But, but yeah, I remember reading the story of Jackie Robinson as a young boy and just, and, and all of a sudden as people did that, like he was like white, like whites only drinking fountain and, and, and talking about all these different divisions that are going on during that time.

And the fact that he pushed through that and became this amazing baseball player, like he almost be, he became like one of my baseball heroes in baseball.

And so, yeah. So it just needs to say is that that was something that came across and it was just, this is the way

God wired us to do that as a result of sin. That makes you view another image bearer of God in a way that's lesser than you for sure.

But was there ever a time that you, what would be a time that you came across some sort of literature or something?

Cause you, you were dealing with your own internal conscience, I would say. Yeah. What would be a time where you came across some sort of something that kind of made you look, challenge your, what you were being taught, whether it was something from the

Bible or just someone who's a friend of yours outside of the group. What was the first thing, even the young age that really kind of challenged you, it forced you to think outside the box that you were trying to be molded into.

Yeah. Yeah. I can think of two things specific. So ironically, and this was just so bizarre to me is that my church that I went to, they would go down to Tennessee to go to a

Bible camp. And so I would go down with them and, you know, we just get the camp ready for the kids for summer.

And then when I started to look into the history of the camp, it was actually one of the first camps in the

South that allowed black students to come in. And so I remember just reading all this about this camp and I'm like, they're known for this.

Like they're known for being the first to allow black students to come in. So like, why are we supporting this?

And I just remember thinking like, this is good. Like, this is a good thing. And, you know, everybody was supporting it.

And, you know, of course the guy that was in the cult wasn't there with us. Like he wouldn't go. But I just remember thinking that specifically, like this has to be a good thing that we're including people that aren't white and that they're known for this.

Cause I know that slavery is wrong and this just makes sense. And then another thing too, that it just kind of scared me into the truth sort of was just seeing how people at my church interacted, like normally or like, you know, they talk about the

Bible and especially people from other churches that I knew of would just talk about the Bible. And I knew that like occultic things were wrong.

And so I remember going to a bookstore in Detroit and, um, uh, the guy that was, that was in the cult, he was just like,

Oh, I need to find the occult section. And I'm like, so someone, someone in the church of Israel.

Yeah. Yeah. He's just like, I need to find the occult section. And I'm like, occult, like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness.

And he's like, no occult, like Satanism. And I'm like, what? Like, I didn't even know what that meant. And so like,

I knew that obviously Satanism was wrong and things like that. That's kind of cultish. Right.

Yeah. And no, so I, that was my first like, um, exposure to something that was occultic was, you know, he's just like,

Oh yeah, you know, I'm going to look at all these books. And then he's just like checking out a bunch of them. And he just knew so much.

And, you know, he could give you any world religion or anything like he was part of it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is when you're like in depth studying it to like a weird extent.

And so I just noticed that. And I was like, that has to be wrong. Like there's something wrong here. And then, um, that's so weird.

Like we just, we play games. So, so as he studied, so this guy, was he just sort of studying the occult?

Or was he actually trying to practice? I don't know. I feel like he might've been practicing some stuff because just the way that it was like more of just an interest.

It seemed, it seemed to be just like an overly exaggerated emphasis in everything, specifically the occult.

So it would be different. It would be different from like Walter Martin when, when you want to look and analyze it from a biblical worldview where you kind of look and understand the basic foundation of what is going on.

Just get an apologetic standpoint. Right. That would be the difference between understanding. Okay.

What are, what are tarot cards? What do they do? What are their purpose? What are their intent? Yeah. Versus saying like, no,

I need to actually like start. Yeah. Like start handing them out and doing all that sort of stuff or, or start, or let me actually, let's, let's grab a

Ouija board and see. I'm almost like, let's, let's see if we can kind of find the truth that's in there.

Was that, that seemed to be like more of the approach. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't like a, here's the cult and then here's scripture to combat it.

It's like, I'm going to try to convince you of this, or even though I'm, I say that I'm a Christian, I'm just going to try to convince you of this cult like idea.

And so one thing that really weirded me out is like, you know, we play games just like normal games, like sorry, or Uno.

And he would like just do weird things in the game. Like he'd, you know, and I'd watch him and I mean,

I was little, I could have been easily deceived, but he'd just be like, this is going to be a seven. And then this is going to be this.

And he just like do things like that, that weren't necessarily like a cultic. But he would just like predict things.

And then he'd like, you know, do weird stuff with his head. And, you know, he just like act really weird.

And that kind of just freaked me out. And it's not, and it's not that odd. I'd say too, for people who would say that the

Nazis are to be praised because they're doing God's work by exterminating the Jewish people. When it's a fact that the

Nazis were into the occult. Heinrich Himmler, Hitler's right -hand man was verified into the occult.

Like, so I could see how there might be some type of Kabbalah, like mysticism saying, you know, that there's this weird

Jewish practices that can be done or the secret things of the occult that they're probably allowed to do.

Like the Kabbalah and things like that, the Jewish mysticism. So it's interesting too, is that there actually are elements and we, we haven't done an episode doing with in depth, but the

Hebrew roots, that's like, it's a big movement right now. Even, even among Christian churches where there's, there's sort of this emphasis that we need to look at.

There's a lot of good in the old Testament, right? So there's there, but they kind of view it in the sense to where we need to go back and explore the, do we need to take the feast and we need to do all those sorts of things.

And there's, I don't think there's anything wrong with that where, okay, maybe I could have an appreciation for like what

Passover is like and kind of just, and maybe you could get a better preaching for what Christ did.

But then all of a sudden you'd be, you have this like tribalistic have and have nots. So there's definitely, there's definitely an appeal within the

Hebrew roots, a lot of different elements of Hebrew roots to go back to like the, the Jewish sort of mysticism and things like that.

Um, is that, was that with, but with this specifically, I mean, it's, it's kind of bought in some levels that does have

Hebrew roots elements to it. I would say, was there any level of that you would see me, aside from that one instance that you witnessed, or would that be kind of like part of the theology that you would see?

So I'd say like, yes and no, um, definitely like cult like things, but not at all.

Um, Jewish. So they, they would just despise anything Jewish basically. So claim to be

Jewish. Yep. Because anything that's, you know, Jewish nowadays, like, like for example, births in hospitals, like hospitalization, that whole idea is

Jewish, like modern Jewish, which they wouldn't consider Jewish. So, you know, home births and, you know, you shouldn't have social security cards and all this random stuff.

That's not actually Jewish, but, um, they would just say that it is. And when they say

Jewish, they're saying it like, Oh, these are these Russians that aren't actually Jews. And yeah. What's their take on circumcision?

They're, they're before circumcision, I'd say. They're for that. Yeah. As far as I know, but really that was part of the

Jewish tradition. That was, that was like, okay with them. This just inconsistent, like, and you know, they just do normal things that are just might be

Jewish, but they don't think about it. Or, you know, like the Bible, having Jewish roots, just, you know, just try to make it as American as it sounds, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's the take, what's, what's the sociological infrastructure like in the church of Israel?

Is it very tribalistic? You can only kind of hang out with people in the group, or as far as really content, really dealing with the outside world, as far as going to public school, um, the type of whether or not you're able to really have a television or entertainment, music options, things like that.

Um, you always see those elements and sometimes you'll just even have strict Christian houses where they're being strict. I think there is a level of where that's a good thing.

Um, I mean, I mean, there's always, if you look at right now with what's going on in the world, there's a lot of things that are on television and a lot of like indoctrination you need to be aware of.

And quite frankly, right now when I have kids, I want to protect them from, and that should be a good thing.

But what sociologically, what's it like growing up? What, what, what things are the things that, what things would add up as far as being cultish, uh, sociologically within the church of Israel?

Yeah. So very patriarchal, but not in a good sense. Like, um, I would, which real quick, that's another one of those kind of trigger when whites, we talk about white supremacy and that sort of a trigger word there.

But it also seems that, um, like patriarchy is there's such, it's such a loaded word that people just throw at you that it goes, you know, people just use any which way, but they had specific meanings within the church of Israel.

So go ahead with what you're saying. Yeah. So not as in like a biblical sense of like women should submit in a godly way, but just like, you know, no, no talking, just very like you are to stay at home, make babies.

You can't have babies in the hospital. You can't work at all. Like just stay there and, you know, make babies.

And that's just kind of the mindset. Um, and it's very like very, you, you have to stay in your own little bubble.

So, um, the guy that I was raised with, he actually left the church and moved to Missouri. So he could go to the church of Israel cause he was just so engrossed in it.

He's like, you know, I, I have to be here. I have to go there and I just, I have to be part of this one church. So it's like if you, if you are a

Hebrew, um, uh, part of the church of Israel, then you'd want to go to Missouri. So, well, it's funny.

You almost said Hebrews, which I understand because it's, it's almost like interchangeable with how they are together.

Um, and so, yeah, so when you, I'm just curious about too, um, how do they typically for people who leave the church, what's that like?

Is there, is there a level of similar to Jehovah's Witness where they, people get disfellowshipped and you can't talk with them anymore or people, or like Scientology when you have a suppressive person and disconnection where they're, where they're shunned and you can't talk to them anymore.

Was there elements that you, that were there as well too? Yeah, yeah, definitely a shunning and like a, you know, you're not part of us so you can leave, you know, like maybe not necessarily like you're not saved, but you know, cause if you're white you can be saved.

But, um, there's kind of like this, you know, if you, if you leave then you're not part of the true church kind of thing.

So, yeah. Wow. You're intermingling, you know, and if you intermarry,

I'm pretty sure you're totally out. Wow. This is a, this is very, very interesting.

Um, so we've gone a little bit right here and this is sort of like a good introduction. What I'm curious about too is maybe we talk about a couple more things too about, um, the timeframe between, you know, this, this young age, which goes to show is that the world, the kingdom of the cults has an effect on people at really at any age and especially young, you always see that sort of indoctrination.

So almost, there's a good version of that. Like biblically when it talks about raise your children in the admonition of the

Lord and train a child up a child and the way they should go and they'll, when they're older, they'll not depart from it. But when it comes to the world, the cults like here you are being really taught.

I mean, the Bible says love does no harm to its neighbor. And here you are from a young age being taught, but you, like your conscious knows this is another image bearer of God.

But you're conflicting that with a serpent seed doctrine to say, no, this person is, is the generational byproduct of, of Satan having sex with Eve and therefore the, not a real human being.

Yeah. Like that, that mean, like I said, bad, bad theology hurts people.

And so when it comes in a lot of times, even what you see, right. I think, and you could just emphasize this for a wrap up here.

I think, um, what you're seeing right now is that whatever the cult is, whatever the conflict is, it seems like every other week there's some sort of conflict between two people.

And, and then it's controversial. A gun gets drawn, whether it's two civilians that it's like a racial tension or it's a police officer involved in what you really are seeing is just an, a really, a falling short of the command to love one's neighbor because people have a distorted view of God.

Yeah. You know, perfect love casts out fear. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Amen. And I'm seeing, that's what I'm seeing a lack of right now.

So we, would you agree? Definitely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I've, I actually have a couple more questions

I'll jump off. I'll jump onto in the next episode. Um, so yeah, uh, Brooke. So yeah, so that being said, we're going to wrap things up here and we will jump, uh, into, uh, further into part two.

And as always, uh, definitely check out, uh, this wrap up after this episode where we, uh, we have the new program cultist, the aftermath that is available.

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This is a time of uncertainty, and this is a time when you have different calls and hate groups like the church of Israel that will use and exploit a situation like this.

Like I said, this sermon just happened in, Joe, uh, it was February of this year. And this is,

I can only imagine what the sermons are right now. Uh, that's only escalated. So maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more, uh, in the next episode.

So, uh, if you guys enjoyed this episode and what did you think about it in light of current events, leave a comment on our social media, let us know what you thought, whether you agree or disagree and leave us a five star review on iTunes or a one star review, whatever your opinion is, all opinions are welcome.