Will McRaney on His Supreme Court Case

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to the

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Conversations That Matter podcast, my name is John Harris. We have a special guest today, Dr. Will McCraney, who actually is in litigation right now with the

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North American Mission Board. This has been ongoing now for some time. I'll have him explain that, but the reason

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I wanted him on is because this is kind of a big deal. Like this is probably one of the biggest things happening in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. If you're a Southern Baptist, you should probably know about it. And it took me a while to kind of understand more what the working issues in this case are.

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And for those going to the convention this June, I just think this is going to be one of the issues undergirding the umbrella of,

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I guess we could say corruption. So Dr. Will McCraney, thank you so much for joining me and just being willing to explain this to my audience.

01:03

Good to be with you, John. So, so first things first, what are you doing? Well, most of the time,

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I would say I've been trying to be a husband, a grandfather, a pastor with church. And then in my side time,

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I'm involved with litigation with the North American Mission Board that now is before the United States Supreme Court.

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So that's big stuff. Between times, I'm not doing much else. So that's keeping me a little bit busy.

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You seem like a normal guy. You know, you're a pastor. I mean, my dad was a pastor growing up.

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I know pastors have an insurmountable amount of work. So we're just thankful for you to come on and explain this, take a few minutes.

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But to on the side be in litigation, I mean, that's kind of a serious thing.

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And most people want to avoid that. That's just a stressor in their lives. Why did you decide to pursue this?

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And what are the working issues of this case? Okay, well, we did everything we could,

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John, to avoid the lawsuit. But Kevin Eazell, until today, still today, from June 2015, has refused to meet with me.

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And the NAMP trustees, who he works for, have refused to demand that he meet with me in any type of mediation or just private conversation to resolve the issues.

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So I wrote a letter of concern. I was terminated in 2015 after Kevin Eazell placed a, he made claims trying to actually take over more of the

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Baptist Convention of Maryland -Delaware. But really what he's trying to - You were the head, just to give some background for people who don't know.

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So you were involved with the Baptist Convention of Maryland -Delaware. Yes. I was the executive director, just working up there.

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I've been a professor at New Orleans Seminary. I've been a pastor, church planter, consultant, writer, those kinds of things.

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And so I was serving up there in the North American Mission Board, which is its sole entity, is an entity, and its sole member is actually the

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Southern Baptist Convention, which is different than the Baptist Convention of Maryland -Delaware. In the

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Baptist life, Southern Baptist life, state conventions operate fully autonomous, like every church does and every association does, which is the reason all of that's under threat under this lawsuit.

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But basically what Kevin Eazell did in trying to have more power and more influence, he defamed me with lies in writing because there was things he wanted.

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And then when that didn't work, he made threats. When that didn't work, he made financial bribes. When that didn't work, he bribed again.

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And then ultimately, he paid off after my termination. And so we're in a lawsuit because he defamed me, and two, because he tortiously interfered.

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That's the legal term. It's a big term. But really, what he did, he interfered with my ability to work. And of course, the serious thing is that he not only did that in Maryland -Delaware, he actually, once I was terminated, he did this in Mississippi and Florida.

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And of all things, they posted my picture at the headquarters of the North American Mission Board as if I was enemy number one.

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So he not only did it to me, he did this to others as well. And so I tried everything

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I could do to resolve it, even sent he and his wife a plant and sent an idea to my wife and said, hey, peace to you guys.

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And he continued to go after me. And so I was left with no other recourse. I had sent a letter of concern to the trustees in February of 2016 and anticipating that they would do something with those concerns.

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Didn't have an attorney, wasn't thinking about a lawsuit. But some 14 months later, we got to a point where he continued to interfere and damage my ability to provide for my family.

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I don't know. John, I have three daughters. Two of them are in the process of getting married. To be unemployed trying to pull off weddings is quite a task.

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So we were left with no other choice but to file a lawsuit. Well, man, so this matches stories that I've heard from all over.

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Unfortunately, the convention and different entities, especially the seminaries, which is where people usually who are professors are working there, will kind of reach out to me and say, hey, don't tell anyone who

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I am, but there's corruption or there's something going on here, usually related to the social justice stuff.

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I realize your case isn't directly related to that. But there's a fear.

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And then if they do say something, it makes it makes all kinds of waves. And we've seen this before.

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Bobby Lopez is probably a good example of someone like that. So so I think, you know, as you're doing this, there's just what's prompted me to want to talk to you in a way is just all the other stories that seem to fit this same kind of narrative.

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And but you're the one that's decided you're a bulldog enough to actually go after it.

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So it sounds to me like he interfered with your ability to get a job by damaging your reputation.

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And what was it the reason he wanted to damage your reputation? Was it because you were exposing corruption or was it just a personal disagreement that just went bigger than it should have or what?

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Well, I'm not really sure, because as to his motivation, I have some ideas. But in a matter of law, that won't matter in the law.

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His motivation for doing it. But really, what happened, John, is the North American mission but was trying to move to a more centralized control.

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It'd be like the federal government trying to take control from state states or the local government.

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Even in spite of all the inefficiencies that exist in our in our system, we actually don't want the federal government installing red lights in our in our small towns.

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I mean, it's just craziness. The Baptist Convention, Maryland, Delaware. Most people don't know this, that the

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Baptist Convention, Maryland, Delaware, where I served actually was formed nine years before the Southern Baptist Convention, 1836.

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And so what's what's happened is, in an effort, it's all about money, right? In politics, it's all and the same thing

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Southern Baptist Convention. And they look for ways to, in Southern Baptist life, the money flows through typically through the state conventions to the national levels.

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Actually, if people, just a small bit of background that might help people that don't know Southern Baptist is, Baptist churches formed local associations kind of in their county.

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Those associations exist on their own. Then local churches form state conventions.

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And then later did they form the national convention. And so that's different than every other denomination. Most other, because Southern Baptist actually is not a denomination.

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We have voluntary independent relationships, partnerships with no autonomy.

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There's no set doctrine. There's no ecclesiastical connections. There's no governmental connections.

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And so all these operate independently. And so what has happened, NAM is now, they wanted more and more control of the

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Baptist Convention, Maryland, Delaware. I came from a background where I was a professor of evangelism and church planting, the two things

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NAM primarily does. And so I understood the issues from a researcher's perspective, and their strategy to centralize made absolutely no sense strategically.

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And so not only did I have responsibility to my convention in Maryland, Delaware, the 600 churches there, but I actually had been studying this field since the late eighties.

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And actually NAM had paid me to write reports on whether new churches or existing churches are better in baptisms.

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And so I knew all of the charades that they were pulling. And so why me,

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John, I don't really know, except I was a threat. I had probably the top evangelism book that's been written in terms of training guys.

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In the last 15 years in seminaries, I've done probably as much or more research in church planting than anybody in the history of the

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SBC. And so I wasn't buying that it was better controlled from a federal level or national level than a local level.

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That's fine. They could have pulled their money back. What he did, John, was that when he placed a million dollar a year threat on that convention until I was terminated, that's against the law.

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It's just that simple. Give me some examples, if you could, just for everyone listening, of ways in which this centralized authority,

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NAM, is trying to exert its control over local autonomous entities like Maryland Delaware Convention or the local churches.

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Right. Well, in my given situation, they want to move to partner contracts that put all the decision -making of North American Mission Board, the hiring of church planting staff.

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In the past, that's just one example. In the past, there was a partnership between the national level and the state level in hiring staff and then funding and resourcing planters.

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If not, everything has to happen at the national level. And that just makes no sense. I mean, all the numbers indicate now that it's been an utter failure under Kevin Ezell in the last 10 years.

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The Southern Baptist Convention have been an utter failure in baptisms and church plants. In spite of spending this massive amount of money, of course, they're hoarding money in houses and bank accounts and stock accounts.

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They're doing all manner of stuff. It's typically about the money. That's interesting.

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So you're saying that what's happening is they want to get their people in that they're really people that probably would be loyal to them, that they've handpicked to run the show in these local entities or autonomous entities that should not be as closely associated with them.

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And what the result has been that the, all the metrics that you would use to determine success are their, their nosediving.

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So baptisms you said have gone down. What other, are there other metrics that we can look at? Church plants.

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Church plants, we've had 5 ,000, as this happens, we've had 5 ,000 fewer churches that are participating in the cooperative effort of Southern Baptists.

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From 2007 to 2019, there was actually over 5 ,200 churches less.

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And so what's happening is there's a disconnect. The SBC is moving more and more towards elite controls.

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A few, a few people, you see this in the, in the, in your listeners listen to this, they understand

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Al Mohler's influence, for example. And so what you have is his influence and you have this nationalization of control and resources and actually massive corruption that's taken place in SBC.

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When I began my lawsuit, you know, John, I thought it was just about my little case, but little did

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I know that all the things that would be entrusted to me, just like your phone rings, my phone rings, with all manner of corruption and misuse of power and interference and things of that nature.

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Well, it's been eyeopening for me because I was only a seminary student now, what two and a half years ago, three years ago.

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And, I just didn't, I wasn't aware of everything going on. And I still probably am not, none of us are fully aware except God, but I thought that social justice was really, that was the main issue in the

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Southern Baptist convention. I've really come to realize actually there is a whole underlying corruption that's there.

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And this is just one issue that, that, that is being used by, by this underlying kind of corruption.

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And it doesn't mean everyone who works in the SBC is corrupt. Don't, don't get me wrong. Those who are listening, there's some great people who work for different SBC entities, but at the top there's rot.

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And that's what I've come to kind of understand. Through many people reaching out and telling me kind of what's going on in their neck of the woods.

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You're a public figure though, at this point, because of this case is getting so big. So what do you predict?

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Well, I should ask it this way, perhaps. What, what kinds of things are on the line and what's the result going to be if you win this?

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Okay. Well, I would say that I'm on, I'm on, I think I can summarize it pretty quickly, but most people in Southern Baptist life, they actually understand this, including state convention, executive directors.

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They understand what's at stake and they're actually supporting me. Now, it's almost like a golf clap because no one is hardly very public in their support of me.

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They want to be very silent, but here's what's at stake, John. Here's what, here's what the North American mission board has asked for the

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United States Supreme court. It's in writing. It's irrefutable. They have, NAM is asking SCOTUS to provide legal protections for them to defame and interfere with any of the independent and autonomous partners, which would be a state convention or some 1100 associations or 47 ,500 churches.

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They want the government, they want the courts to give the protections for, for the entities of the

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Southern Baptist convention, like the North American mission board to be able to defame with, with no consequences and to do all manner of lies or interferences or threats or bribes against any minister that partners with the

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Southern Baptist convention. That's the single biggest thing probably in the history of South Baptist convention.

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That's at stake. And no one's talking about, well, I shouldn't say no one, but hardly anyone is mentioning this.

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That's what I, that's what gets me is there. I would think that you'd be on some like even national secular media types might be wanting to talk to you.

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Um, just as, as we get closer to the convention, just cause it's such a big deal, but I hardly hear anyone even in the convention, uh, mentioning this, which, well, why do you think that is?

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Well, that's a good question. I think probably the single biggest reason is you've got a very powerful person in Kevin Ezell and a powerful entity that has the power to both do the carrot and hit you with a stick.

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And most people just want to do their work. They're trying to do their ministry and be left alone. And they don't want to pick up and take on Kevin Ezell and the, um, and North American mission board.

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And there's so many, there's so much money that's floating around. What your listeners probably won't understand is some $50 million that used to partner with state conventions is now back in the control of the

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North American mission board. And so John, if they have $130 million budget a year and some $400 million in assets, they can hand out a lot of favors and buy a lot of protection.

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Yeah. I don't think a lot of people understand that. And if, if the convention takes a nosedive, that's a lot of money to kind of divvy out because even if, you know, the convention, you know, implodes over doctrine or something, there, there's still a lot of property that needs to be liquidated.

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And just, I mean, you can, that's a lot of money to live off of if you're in the top there.

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Um, man. Uh, so, so you're, you're doing, you're going it alone. I'm sure this is stressful for you and your family.

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I've seen some of the, um, the videos I know you and your wife will record. Um, by the way, I hope I never make an enemy with your wife.

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She's a sweetheart, but she's tenacious when it comes to the truth. She's a great, she seems like a great helpmate to you and just, uh, you know, supporting you all the way in this.

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Um, I know you have your Facebook. Is there somewhere else people can go though, if they want to learn more about this or support you in some way?

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Well, they can do a couple of things. They can go to my website at willmcrainey .com. It's M C R A N E Y, willmcrainey .com

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and just search anything with NAM and Kevin Eason. My name's probably going to pop up, but they can do that.

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And they certainly can send us an email. We've been asked to, we, we don't publicize it very much, but actually we have a, a

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GoFundMe page to help with the legal costs. While Southern Baptists are paying, I'm actually been paying and was unemployed four years and paying for my own legal defense, uh, and legal, legal, uh, expenses.

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And so someone could participate in that as well. And certainly we're sustained by the prayers of people, John. I mean,

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I had no idea. I mean, I, I started off, I'm a, I was a pretty good college baseball player and football player.

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And I just a broken down player. And I'm thinking like how in the world did I end up in the United States Supreme Court getting paperwork from them?

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But what's happened is I really believe that God has given the Southern Baptist Convention opportunity to come to repentance over all the self dealing and corruption that exists.

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We are losing truth, John, in your world, we're losing truth at the national level, but we're losing the same thing in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. We're become a lawless people. Actually, no one is holding

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Kevin Eazell to the standards or even just to the basic rules, forget the laws. And so what's happened is, uh, we've become a weak, courageous list people that's almost impotent to do anything.

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And we wonder why God can't use us. And so it's bigger than my particular case in a lot, a lot of ways.

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And so for me, uh, one of the things God is doing is God is telling the Southern Baptist Convention this leadership don't ever say to me,

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I didn't tell you and point this out. I sent Will McRaney, I sent others to point this stuff out just like you and the ministry that you have.

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And so they can't say, we didn't know we're, we're, we're innocent. That's just not the case. But when you allow, for example, just as a side note, not to chase the story, but when you allow a trustee chairman who is a friend of, of Kevin Eazell at Lifeway to give away a million dollars to his friend,

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Tom Rainer, the president, as he leaves, when, when Lifeway's $33 million in losses one year, 33 .5,

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I believe. Um, and he shouldn't be a trustee because he has three book contracts, three book contracts, and you can't be a trustee if you're getting direct or indirect benefit.

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And so my point is all, some of those people are all tied either back to Al Mohler, they're tied back into Kevin Eazell.

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And of course they're guilty on their own, but just the level of corruption and the lawlessness in the, in the, in the inability to just follow the basic rules.

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You talk about the loss of truth. We, the rules don't matter if you're in control. Yeah. And that's a sad, that's a, that's a sad state of affairs.

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Well, one more time. What's the website. If people want to support you? Willmcraney .com.

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And then, and then they can go to, uh, I got a PayPal. Um, I said PayPal. There's it's set up by PayPal through GoFundMe.

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They can look GoFundMe and look at the North American mission board and look at Will McRaney and they'll probably pull up if they want to support us financially.

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And then of course we just covered the prayers and this has been a difficult time on our family. We didn't, we didn't choose this.

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This chose us. Yeah. And I, and I'm getting that sense just from talking to you. I mean, you and your sweet wife,

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Sandy probably did not think this was going to be your, you know, um, responsibility for the next few years to carry this out.

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But it, it's escalated. And, um, and, and, and like you said, there's a lot of people that have similar situations that are watching this.

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And, um, for people who just are trying to figure this out, I mean, this, this would give someone like a

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Russell Moore, even the ability to go after, let's say, uh, a pastor who partners with the

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Southern Baptist convention to damage their reputation, um, keep them from getting a job, these kinds of things.

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And, uh, And has Supreme court immunity, John, that's, that's just enormous. Most people think it won't happen to them.

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And for most people, it won't happen to them, but the very nature that you're going to allow the North American mission board to claim to be what's called a supporting organization, which is a legal definition.

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And it's an IRS term and it has requirements. And the claim that they in them writing that they have absolute rights and absolute privileges, and they have no rights and no privileges.

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And to have such a weakless, uh, Southern Baptist convention and, um, and, and executive committee leadership.

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And, uh, I'm, it's, it's an amazing deal that they can't even speak publicly. You see,

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I have the, the Southern Baptist convention, when it files paperwork in PA and, you know, sexual abuse cases, for example, in Virginia, they file that Southern Baptist have no churches.

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We have no governance. We have no, no hierarchy, no anything. Why are they silent now? Mike Stone was, was the chairman for two years of executive committee.

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And he did nothing. Roland Slade is the chairman now and they say nothing than what it's a sexual abuse case.

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And when there's money involved against some best convention, they speak. Why aren't they speaking now? Well on that note, cause

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I know Mike Stone is running for, for president. He, have you, have you talked to him at all about these issues now that he's.

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Well, I've communicated with Mike all during his tenure there. He's, he's followed this. I have asked them, they could file what's called an amicus brief.

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Right. They could file it with a friend of the court to explain to the court what they explain in every other cases.

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We have no hierarchy. We have no, we have no control over McRaney's employer, nothing.

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When you have NAM and ERLC, Russell Moore partnered together and lying to the court, keep lying to the court.

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And yet, and yet the Mike Stone and Roland Slade, and Ronnie Floyd is the, is the, is the, is the

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CEO says nothing now. Yeah. Can you think of all the lawsuits that will be filed against a convention if, if NAM wins this case and you think about all the potential, as you said, for Russell Moore, which is actually one of my former students at seminary, you know,

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I taught at New Orleans seminary, but, um, he could, he could with impunity say whatever he wanted to about you.

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Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Um, I mean, everything's at stake. So in that regard, well, question, uh, on the, on the note of Southern Baptist convention politics coming into the

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SBC, I mean, are you number one, supporting a particular candidate to be the president and number two, what do you think the best solution is for people, for people to be, uh, when they're coming into the convention as messengers, what should they be aware of and looking for and doing?

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Well, what it takes, John is, is we've got to have some courageous people again in your world of social justice, people know things, but to know them and talk about them in private doesn't do much.

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They've got to speak out in public. And, um, you know, in many ways, some of the

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Republicans and Democrats are some ways and some characteristics. And often if what their interest is, is to keep their political career as opposed to being a statesman, then there's not a whole lot of difference in how they behave.

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Now they can say whatever they want to say. So what I would look for in a candidate is somebody that will take action. And so I've known

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Randy Adams, the president of North American, excuse me, Northwest convention in Washington state in Oregon, a little bit of Idaho.

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And Randy has actually made commitments to have transparency. He says he will open up the books of the

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North American mission board. And he actually can. The other candidates are saying that's not possible. That's just absolutely false.

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If you're a trustee of an entity, they cannot keep the financial records closed. What's going to happen, John, if Randy is elected, he will open up those books and the payouts to JD Greer, for example, and all manner of pastors,

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Ronnie Floyd and others will be exposed because they're paying these guys off and have contracts with them.

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And so all manner of corruption. And so the establishment, whether they're on the woke side or, or, uh,

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Calvinist side with, with Mueller, or even some of the guys with the conservative Baptist network, if the, if their primary objective is to just keep the system going and not expose what's really going on, then we can't get cleaned up.

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I mean, my goodness, we need to go to the doctor and have some surgery on what's going on. And so Randy is committed to specifics of doing things that will bring transparency and accountability to the system.

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If they open up the records and there's nothing there, there's nothing there, but I know too much and he knows too much and others know too much as well.

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And so they, the leadership is doing everything they can to keep him not to be elected because I'm Mike Stone was in a position.

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Mike's probably a great pastor. I've had good conversations with Mike, pastor in Georgia, but he was a chairman and they did nothing to address that mattered to address more easel, the million dollar payoff.

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They didn't even, they can't even, the cat's got their tongue. And so we only, to me, we had, the sun best convention only has one

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Statesman candidate and the rest are talking. So, okay. So you're, you're supporting

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Randy Adams and it sounds like, um, yeah, tell me what you really think. Okay. So, um, so corruption's a big issue in the

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Southern Baptist convention. Um, obviously the social justice issue, I think they've both kind of gone hand in hand in a way here, but, uh,

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I've, I've only recently kind of become aware of some of this stuff. So I'm not able to articulate the same things.

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You just seem to know kind of where everything's buried. And, um, um, it's just, you know, you're, you're a wealth of information for people who want to know more about this.

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So I would encourage people to go to your website. And I know you're on Facebook as well, and you're very active there.

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So I'm sure you wouldn't mind if people want to friend you. Uh, it's just no Will McCraney, right.

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On Facebook, they can search for you. Uh, and you do these little videos. What once every, sometimes

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I've seen them a few times a week, but, um, it depends on what's going on. Yeah. Where you talk about once or twice a week.

25:54

Yeah. And I know you got your, all your documents too. Um, and I, I have not read all of them. I'm not aware, but it's, you're amazing at organizing.

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They're just all there, uh, on your website. So if anyone wants to dive into this further, they can. So, uh, well,

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I appreciate your courage. I appreciate you being willing to explain this. And I'm sure a lot of people listening right now are probably having more questions than they are, um, even answers at this point.

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Now you're, you're, which is a good thing, all sorts of questions. And I would just encourage people who have questions about, uh, what might be going on in the convention, uh, given what

26:29

Dr. Will McCraney just said, Hey, go, go check it out. Go to his website, go do the research message. Um, ask him.

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Um, so, Hey, thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you, John, the work that you're doing. And it's just a,

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I mean, in the end, Jesus says, he's the truth and we've got to stand in truth. We've got to speak it in love, but we've got to speak the truth and we get to operate in truth.

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And, and, um, we just got to keep exposing when, when lies and deception and corruption and stuff, stick their heads up because, you know, we're really trying to take a message to, of hope to a dying world.

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And we need to have credibility of the messenger. We have a credible message. We need to be credible messengers of that message.

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And, uh, and we're, and we're losing credibility with the people when people desperately need something they can rely on.

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So appreciate you and your work. Amen. We'll be praying for you. God bless. All right. Thank you. Bye now.