June 8, 2004

Bill Maher, Religious Skepticism, and Cultural Double Standards

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line at least. At least he was honest. I Noted on my blog. I was going to begin the program today with an example of what it is That secularists and leftists in our culture and nation really do think.

They just they just tend to try to avoid really saying anything about it. Because they recognize it's hypocritical, but this is what they truly do think and I really appreciate Dr. Al Mohler. Including this information.

I love the way he started. It was so politically incorrect Because people would say that's mean but you know, he's exactly right. Let me play a clip from From Al Mohler's a radio program. I think this is really good.

You know if there ever is a classic example of a man who's been raised above his intellectual pay scale. It is Bill Maher. And in this case you had a man who was a comedian. Who is now being presented to the public as someone who is a serious commentator on the news and on Larry King live on Wednesday?

Night, he spoke his mind about something I think you'll find very very interesting. And folks if you're not outraged by this. I don't think you're capable of outrage. Listen carefully. Bill Maher on Larry King live on Wednesday night, you know, you said something about.

You have to respect people's beliefs.

I know that's what we always hear. We have to respect. I'm sorry. I don't I don't I don't respect religion. I don't respect superstitious thinking which is what religion is. I don't respect Childish thinking which is what religion is.

We talked about this before about this whole gay issue wouldn't even be an issue except it says it in the Bible the Bible that book that has people live to be 900 years old and Says the world is you know 6 ,000 years old and that there are people who lived in a whale and you know that infallible work of genius.

And slavery is okay, and you should stone a guy to death if he works on Sunday. That's the book that says sorry no queers. So I'm sorry. I don't respect people who believe in religion. I was religious when I was a kid.

We all had dumb stuff drilled into our head. But it doesn't mean when you get to be an adult you can't drill it out.

Yes indeed well, thank you very much Bill Maher I've only a few times seen his his program when it was on and We've got some odd web user in channel today. And maybe it's Bill Maher for all I know and You know it was it was a waste of time in the sense that as far as actually You know is who can yell loudest and and how many people can you?

You know all crammed together Into one place and put three people on one person and not let the one person get anything said. That seemed to be the the issue with with Bill Maher. But you know really that's that's how many leaders in our society actually think.

That's very it comes across very clearly in in their actions. But they try to avoid actually saying that out loud because to do so would be to admit That they haven't honestly examined any of the information.

There's no evidence that that there's any meaningful You know interaction with Apologetic materials or anything of the kind there, and it's really not a matter of You know from a Christian perspective, that's a spiritual issue a very clear spiritual issue.

It's interesting someone in channel just said if Christians would stop trying to impose the Bible on people and people stop attacking the Bible. Yes, if God would stop being God and telling us how we're supposed to live then then we wouldn't be mad at him.

Because we're in rebellion against him that of course is what the real issue there is so interesting maybe somebody was doing a a Scan for Bill Maher quotes and came across the blog or something like that I'm not really certain how that happened, but very very interesting that that that kind of assertion would be made and Done so openly, but hey at least most of us have known that that was that was what was in the heart all along now.

John 8, Human Inability, and Compatibilism

Someone pointed out. I think as Sam from New Jersey pointed out that Friday the Gary Machuda was on Catholic answers live, and I didn't listen to the whole thing but Sam pointed out that there is one funny statement, and I couldn't help but but play it and right at the beginning introducing Gary The the host you know told a little bit.

Oh, it's interesting, and I don't I don't know what this is on here. In fact I well let me see if let's go ahead and play us for a second. Let's see if it's there to James McCarthy's. Yeah, okay, it is.

He's mentioning a new book that Gary Machuda's put out which is a response to a McCarthy's book on Roman Catholicism notice again the Double standard. I mentioned this on the blog recently. The the assertions people make well You know you're an anti-catholic because you'd you say I'm not a Christian and of course what they mean by that when they say I'm a Christian all they mean by that has been validly baptized nothing more than that.

They don't mean what I mean when I say Christian, and so it's it's an unfair comparison, but the constant double standard in Roman Catholic writings and Roman Catholic apologists and apologetics. Anything from the other side that responds to Rome is anti-catholic.

But if Gary Machuda writes a book in response to McCarthy is it an anti-protestant book. Is it an anti-baptist book of course. Not so just listen to this little clip at the beginning from Catholic answers live to James McCarthy's.

Anti-catholic book the gospel according to Rome. Gary has been debate. He's done debates in the past. Including a recent one with James White on the deuterocanonical books. And Gary so great to have you with us on Catholic answers live today.

Thanks for joining us now. I'm gonna pick it up right there, but I I thought in Reading Steve Ray's blog and a couple other folks that this was Gary Machuda's first debate. At least that was my recollection.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I thought for certain I had read various reviews and said hey and not only that but hey it was his first public debate. So that's great so I don't understand what's being said here.

You know debates and including this one almost may sound like you've done a number of debates.

I don't know. So great to have you with us on Catholic answers live today. Thanks for joining us. Well. Thanks Jerry. It's good to be here. I suppose you've seen it all when it comes to practical apologetics.

Must have had your successes and and also taken your lumps a little bit. Give our folks a little bit of a background about Your involvement in apologetics. Oh well.

You were mentioning the crash-and-burn stories and my whole apologetic career is nothing but one giant crash-and-burn story, but.

I'm not sure that's how I'd start off Program first time around My mind, I'd like you to buy my book however my entire apologetic career has been nothing, but I Something tells me that he'd probably want to take that one back somewhere along the line.

But anyway, we will have more from Catholic answers live because I have a bunch of clips to play today from a program that aired last month with Tim Staples Talking about Mary and and I I was mentioning in Yes, coach, that's that's correct.

I was mentioning in channel last night as I was listening to it man. You know I Know where he's gotten all this stuff and in fact He's stealing this from other people and all this stuff has been refuted over and over again.

And then I came I came up with my conclusion. I've somehow I Came to understand what Tim Staples all about Tim Staples is a cheerleader. He's a cheerleader. I mean he's always Well, I remember in fact.

I have a you know I don't oh I didn't I didn't save that one well probably won't get to it today anyways. But if we do I can I might be able to bring it up during the break something like that. He was talking about when we were on Bible answer man together how well it went and stuff like that and You know I'll never forget when we were on Bible answer man together especially the second time He looked like he was about to come out of his chair and attack me.

I mean he was just so Excitable and ah and as you listen to him. That's what he's like. He's just raw all over the place and He's a cheerleader. And then as I hear him repeating stuff that just has absolutely positively no scholarly redemptive Element to it at all.

That's right, that's give me a C. Give well, and and and I think I have good reason for that think about it at the debate we had in 1996 were during the cross-exit not crosses the question answer no it's audience question period there's all these people lined up and What happens is is all of a sudden?

There's there's a brief break, and what people are saying and one of his quote-unquote students screams out the Eucharist and the whole place wow you know I'm just sitting here going Excuse me. You know what am I supposed to go?

Predestination wow you know I mean my folks aren't gonna do. Yeah, we do need to I what we've got it someplace when you get that clip. It's in there somewhere in fact isn't. That one's available in real audio, so it wouldn't be difficult to track.

But it was it was really funny anyway yesterday. I was I was listening to to Christian radio and I Was listening to a a phone call That that came in from. And I'm good, I'm good instead of using my Electronic text here, dude.

Did you up? There's one you know you'd think that you know every time I reach for a book there I do that and it still hasn't nicked the wood yet I'm amazed that you all know that I do this sitting at my at my desk.

We're gonna take a picture of this sometime, but well no we're not going to because then I have to clean it, but sitting here at my desk, and I just have a I just have a Microphone that is on an arm that we roll down, and I'm sitting here looking at my screen and laughing at the people in channel and So that's that's how we do it.

I've got a keyboard in front of me. So I just picked it up and see the keyboards keyless keyless keyboard wireless wireless keyboard and There's my palm pilot down there and my laptop over there anyway.

So that's how we do things as I just grabbed the Bible here I was listening to Christian radio, and I was listening to the Bible answer man broadcast and the guy called in and I immediately turned up the volume on my super fancy Radio Shack $9 .99 AM FM battery radio sitting over there and real fancy stuff we got here and I Was very interested at the passage.

That the man was was citing and it was John 847 as soon as I heard that I went mmM. This could be interesting. Because Johnny 47 of course says he who is of God hears the words of God for this reason you do not hear them.

Because you are not of God and. And So I thought mmM. I wonder where this is going to go and it went there a lot faster than I expected it to get there actually and Really if you back it up if you if you go back in the context there is a continuation of a very important Concept that comes in from John chapter 6.

Here in John chapter 8 and again you have the give-and-take type situation you had in John 6 of the Jews in the synagogue Capernaum and. Yet you have a claim on the part of the Jews Abraham is our father and This is verse 39.

Jesus said to them if you are Abraham's children do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is you are seeking to kill me a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God this Abraham Did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.

They said to him. We were not born of fornication. We have one father God. Jesus said to them if God were your father you would love me. For I proceeded forth and have come from God for I have not even come on my own initiative.

But he sent me. Isn't it interesting that if just in passing verse 42 says if God were your father you would love me. In other words if that saving relationship exists. If there is that proper relationship between the creature and God Man's love Will have the proper object.

Think about what that means. Think about what that means especially in regards to the theory of libertarianism. Think about what it means regarding the nature of love. The fact that the greatest commandment is love the Lord you go with our heart soul mind strength.

How can you command something like that unless we have? Sometimes a an unbiblical definition of love. But anyway, Jesus says if God were your father you would love me. That also of course Has a lot to do with pluralism.

The idea that oh, well, you know the Muslim loves God. But the Muslim does not love the true Jesus Christ. Does he? The Buddhist loves God. But the Buddhist does not love Jesus Christ. Hmm Jesus was extremely politically incorrect.

He keeps putting us in these difficult positions. Bill Maher would not like it. For I proceeded forth and have come from God. See the Jews certainly Believed Jesus was a prophet. They probably would have accepted him as a Messiah if he'd been willing to edit himself down to fit their parameters but Jesus says in talking about loving him.

For I proceeded forth and have come from God for I have not even come on my own initiative. But he sent me perfect union between the father and son, but then look at verse 43. Why do you not understand what I am saying now stop right there?

What do most people say. What do most people say? In answer to that question why do you not understand what I am saying? Why do people understand what Jesus think? Well, it's our fault we haven't explained it clearly enough and We're not using the proper method all we're singing hymns and we shouldn't sing hymns.

The greatest way to grow your church is to stop singing hymns and sing praise choruses and have latte bars out in the foyer and The you got to stop wearing suits and ties and start wearing Hawaiian shirts and and and and am right.

That's why they don't Understand what Jesus is saying is they just haven't heard and we haven't you know, it's our fault. We haven't done enough explaining etc. Etc, right if you get right down to it.

Well, they choose not to. And it's true there. There is truth in stating that they choose not to but why do they choose not to? Well, the Lord Jesus put it fairly clearly it is because you cannot hear my word.

You cannot word of inability. Incapacity lacks the ability the power To hear his word. Now, of course, they were hearing physically. They weren't physically deaf. But obviously we're talking about hearing with understanding and They lacked that power.

They lacked that capacity. Why did they lack that capacity? Well, some people say well they lack that capacity because they chose not to have it they chose Not to have the ability to hear but Jesus explanation is you are of your father the devil and You want you desire to do the desires of your father?

You see there's a thing called enslavement to sin. There's a thing called Depravity there's this thing called slavery spiritual death. You are of your father the devil and you want to do the desires of your father.

He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand the truth. Because there is no truth in him whenever he speaks a lie. He speaks from his own nature for he is a liar and the father of lies. Hmm acting in accordance with one's nature sounds like.

Well, what reform folks talk about when they talk about compatibilism, doesn't it? Hmm. And he's saying the reason that they cannot hear is because They are acting like their father and they too are enslaved and they too Are acting in accordance with their nature Verse 45 but because I speak the truth you do not believe me.

Well, why would that be? I mean if if libertarianism is true Verse 45 makes no sense. It would have to be but because I speak the truth some of you choose not to believe me. But some of you choose to do so.

That's not what it says because I speak the truth. You do not believe me why. Because they are of their father the devil and he does not stand the truth. There's no truth in him and they're acting in accordance with their nature.

Which one of you convicts me of sin if I speak truth? Why do you not believe me? That's not a rhetorical question because that's the context of verse 47. The context of verse 47 is if I speak truth. Why do you not believe me?

How to answer question verse 47. He who is of god. He who belongs to god. Hears the words of god same hearing. That he denies they have the capacity for in verse 43. For this reason you do not hear them.

Now is the end of verse 47 say because you Exercised your libertarian free will so as you so that you do not do so. No, it doesn't say that does it? For this reason you do not hear them because you are not of god.

There is a pre-existing issue. Just as there was in john 6 44. And notice this has never been popular. Never been popular. You know why it's never been popular. Look at verse 48. The jews answered and said to him.

Do we not say rightly that you are a samaritan and have a demon? Let's go ad hominem. Yeah, you're a samaritan and you have a demon. Amazing isn't it? Well. So there's john 8 47. And so I hear this call come in and let's listen to what was said.

Jesus talks about um.

That the reason why the pharisees didn't listen or hear his words is because they were not from god. You so he almost seems to predicate they're not listening by not having some sort of origination. In the father as if they had originated from him.

They would listen. And so I was interested in knowing what your take is on how that applies to those who believe in the words of christ.

Yeah, well here jesus is talking to jewish people and those jewish people are claiming to belong to god to be Right with god Right, but but then their actions the very actions that they manifest Demonstrate that they can't in fact Be of god.

Their actions demonstrate that they're in league with the devil. So jesus is exposing their sinfulness. They claim to belong to god. But if they were really right with god, then they would have certainly.

Embraced god's son. So now if you're dealing with them people who are not christians then. To hear the word for the first time and they say that makes sense to me. I feel like that's truth. Does that mean that they really belong to god or even hearing the word?

Well, they demonstrate that they belong to god if they repent of their sins. And receive jesus christ as savior and lord of their life. Now, if you look at this from a macro perspective, what happens?

Now, let me just stop right there. Note up to this point the the preceding context, especially verse 46. Which gives you I mean when when you're looking at a verse that is an answer to a question the question is sort of important to.

You know. Understanding the verse that's the answer. But that hasn't come out the the issue of the fact that jesus himself has said you are doing the will of your father. Uh, this is what your father's like that.

There is no truth in him. He acts according to his nature. You're acting according to your nature. None of that stuff is there. Um, and no, no discussion of that and it's it's interesting we have some sort of a um, I don't know whether it's a roman catholic or a atheist or whatever it is, uh in channel that just said amen to To all the stuff that we just demonstrated.

Was missing the um the context. The context hasn't been addressed yet, but I was wondering where is this going to go?

Well, here's where it goes in the being god creates man with the potential for evil and as a result of that that evil is actualized by adam and eve and Humanity plunges into a life of constant sin terminated by death.

The rest of the bible's god's redemptive plan culminating a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness. Now the bridge between god and Humanity is bridged by the work of jesus christ. We are in disfellowship with god now if we respond to god's message certainly the message of god's son and we Turn from our sinfulness.

And we embrace the savior. Then we will become right with god. But if we are like these jewish people That john is talking about who claim to be right with god But are trying to be right with god through their own prescription.

Then we are really not of god.

Uh, that's interesting. Uh, except that's not what jesus said in verses 44 and following. Because he said they were doing the desires of their father. Now I know it's tough for a libertarian to handle.

Because that's not libertarianism to say that someone is doing the desires of somebody else is To deny the fundamental aspect of libertarianism. But that's what jesus said. He explains their viewpoint their actions their blindness and their sinfulness on the basis of Their spiritual deadness and their slavery to sin and their slavery to satan.

But that hasn't come out. Uh instead we have you know, and i'm not gonna get into the potentiality stuff. We've been over that a million times before. I'm not talking about sonny and sherry and i'm not playing any of their music either.

But let's continue on. We are claiming something. That is not correct. We're trying to do it our own way where jesus comes into this milieu. And he says I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father.

But by me so they didn't belong to god because they had already rejected him not because they had been.

Predetermined to be reprobates. Now, where did that come from? Um Uh, they they they re they had chosen to reject him. Uh, not because they've been predetermined to be reprobates. In other words, you know, we we can't dare uh to allow For the idea of a sovereign decree here.

And even though the passage in verse 43 talks about human inability and even though it specifically keeps talking about you know doing the will of your father and And here in verse 47 then the same thing inability and and the consistency of acting according to nature and all the that Compatibilism, uh, it's right there on this very surface the text, but we got to make sure Uh to maintain libertarianism that's going to come out a little bit more.

Well when I read like first truth from this that those who are of god listen to us that is to say John and I or maybe john and whatever apostles may have remained over from the the first century. And then jesus says those who have heard from the father and learned Come to me as if it was a prerequisite the first learn from the father and hear from the father.

And then after hearing and learning from the father they go. Yeah.

So, how does that work? Well now let's make sure we we see what's being said here that's john 6 45 and john 6 45 follows right after john 6 44 and. Meaningful systems of hermeneutics do recognize the flow of thought and obviously um.

Interpreting verse 45 and then reading its meaning back into 44 or previous verses when you have to interpret a text backwards. You have here clear evidence of what I call traditional interference. Traditional interference that's where your traditions get in the way of your exegesis when you have to change your hermeneutic.

When you have to change your method of interpretation. So as to uh. Continue to hold a position. That might be a clear indication that in reality your traditions have determined that position not the exegesis of the text of scripture and so john 6 45 Very frequently people will isolate it read it in a way that is consistent with their libertarianism.

And then try to fit it back into the text. John 6 45 is explaining the nature of the drawing of 6 44. The drawing that the father does involves teaching. We learn from the father he is the teacher. And we effectively learn from him.

It's not he's up there teaching and it's sort of like those situations where you have uh students. I remember very well when I had to take those classes in high school that were required classes like Government and u .s history and things like that and the stoners in the back of the room were asleep or they were.

You know on another planet or whatever. While the teacher was speaking that seems to be the idea people want to force into john 6 45. God throws it out there if we take him up on learning great. That's wonderful.

But other than that, uh, You know, it's just uh, that's not what john 6 45 is saying. John 6 45 It's the father who is teaching. And that teaching is effective and that is descriptive of the drawing itself.

And that drawing results in all who are drawn being raised up in the last day. That drawing involves knowledge. That drawing involves the work of the holy spirit in making us a new creature in christ and all those things are involved with regeneration.

And so it's all right there and that's where we've we've just left john aton. Jump back to two chapters in essence. John 6 45. Well, just as you have said.

Uh, you have correctly said. The point here though is that we are not Predeterminantly reprobated by god in some artificial sense.

Artificial sense. How about a sovereign sense of. All of us are deserving of sin and god in his sovereign mercy. Chooses and elects some to mercy.

How about that? We become reprobate. We are reprobate because we're not responding To the holy spirit that loses.

So reprobation is a human action not a divine action. And it's based upon the rejection of the work of the holy spirit. Now. There's no question. Anyone who is in fact an enemy of god will reject the holy spirit.

In fact, I love when when folks who are libertarians will cite from acts 8 Act 7 and 8 and especially you you're always resisting the holy spirit. So you can resist the holy spirit as if that has to do with salvation.

Well, doesn't it say you're always resisting the spirit. If that was in regards to salvation then none of these people would ever get saved, right? I've never figured that one out either. But anyhow, we do not respond.

So here's what we have in the whole big scheme of things. We we do not respond not what is said in john 8 cannot hear notice the difference do not is human realm. My will in control. And again, make sure you hear me correctly.

There is no question that the enslaved will will reject That conviction of the holy spirit and the teaching of christ and the teaching of the word of god and all the rest of that stuff. No question about it.

But the question is do they do so in a libertarian fashion to where they could do one thing could do the other? Or they do so because as jesus said in john 8 they're doing the will of their father.

And there is no truth in him and they're acting according to their nature. We have a genuine god of love and justice. We don't have a full orb concept of love until we see. A god of love and a god of justice must maintain not only the love of god, but the justice of god.

Remember full orbed in this context means based upon libertarianism. The assumption being you cannot have love without libertarianism.

We must also maintain the sovereignty of god and genuine human.

Responsibility i .e libertarianism. Rejecting the view of well all reformed theologians in regards to compatibilism without actually addressing any of the passages that teach compatibilism like genesis 50 and Acts 4 and things like that.

Therefore.

If these jews who demonstrate that they are not from god would only Listen to god and receive the message that he is wooing them with in that very milieu.

Now catch that I almost feel like replaying it if they would just listen. Didn't john 8 43 say the reason you do not hear is because what? It is because you cannot hear. Why do you not understand. Because you cannot hear my words if you were of god.

You would hear but what we're hearing here is if you would just hear you could be of god. You see it's 180 degrees backwards.

Then they could receive that message and they're not receiving the message because they would not not because they could not see that.

They're not receiving the message because they would not not because they could not know. They could not and that's why they would not. That's what jesus says. I mean, it's direct statement direct statement of scripture.

It is because you Cannot hear my word john 8 43 and we're just told no, they would not not they could not direct contradiction to the direct statement of the text. And that that's not even brought into the issue the idea that they have.

Circumstantial freedom is not necessitated by that passage even though verse 44.

Says Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth you do not believe me. You're doing what your father's doing. He speaks according to his nature.

You're acting according to your nature. Sounds like compatibilism. How do you get libertarianism out of that. Well, where do you get libertarianism out of john 8 44? I don't know. But I think we'll find out in this last little section.

What is necessitated by the whole of scripture is that they have libertarian freedom the freedom to act. Or the freedom to act. Otherwise, we want to go back to the phone lines. Let's talk. Did you catch that?

What is?

Necessitated. Necessitate let me play it again is necessitated by the whole of scripture. Necessitated by the whole of scripture. Now that seems to me to explain why it is that you can take a passage That uses terms of inability.

Presents compatibilism says cannot turn it on its head to the point where it becomes can but will not. How can you do that. You can do that by traditional interference. You can do that by having a tradition.

Libertarianism the glue of all of man's religions outside of supernatural christianity. That is the glue of man's religions. Libertarianism. Becomes the lens through which you view all of the things. Now everyone who's read the potter's freedom is sitting there going wow, that's that's chosen but free.

That's norman geisler and it is no question about it. No question about it. And here you have it being presented directly right out of the text and what I what what caught me about this this. This particular call was we can go right to the text.

I mean john 8 is so clear. It's so compelling. We can go right to it. And see the effect now it is interesting to me to uh to note. That later on in the same uh call hank used to talk about. There's not a maverick molecule in the universe.

God is sovereign over all things. Doesn't say that anymore not in that. I've not heard the maverick molecule quote in at least a year and a half now. I haven't heard it. Doesn't mean it hasn't been there.

But to my knowledge. Um haven't heard it. But what we do still hear. Is god must change the heart. God must change the heart. Well if the heart is the very seat. The very center of man's being. And god changes it.

You can't be a libertarian. How can you be a libertarian? And say god must change the heart a libertarian would have to say. Man must choose to allow god to change his heart. The heart that is to be changed must choose to be allowed to be changed.

That's true libertarianism if we're going to be consistent if we're going to make this. The lens through which the entirety of the bible must be viewed. Then I would suggest that we need to go all the way.

Let's let's go all the way and let's be consistent. You can't use terminology. Like the changing of the heart. If you're a libertarian. It just it just doesn't work. Well, anyway. That's an interesting one.

We skipped our break because i'm not gonna get very far here. I wanted to get to uh, Tim staples today to do it and we only got less than about 20 minutes right now. I wanted to get to a few of them. Anyway, tim staples was talking about mary and I.

One of the debates. That i'm looking forward to sometime in the future. I would very much like to do a debate with tim staples on mary. And um. And As we listen to some of this you'll be able to to see why.

Right at the beginning of the program um God is the father of us all. No web user. Uh for some odd reason maybe you might want to go back to john chapter 8. And you'll see there that jesus said the jews that their father was the devil.

Okay, if you're meaning father in the sense of creator. Then god created us all. Yes, but not in the sense of relationship. Uh, so anyway, um. Back to tim staples. I'm just uh, Interacting a bit too much with the uh with the channel here um Tim staples right at the beginning.