Are Images of Jesus a Violation of the Second Commandment?

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Christmas is coming and a lot of people are going to be pulling out their nativity sets.

00:03

But should we, according to the second commandment? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:29

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:31

My name is Keith Boskey and I am a Calvinist.

00:34

And I am joined in the studio today by my friend and fellow brother in Christ, Michael McKendry.

00:39

Michael, how are you doing today? Doing great, thank you.

00:42

I want to thank you again for coming in and for being a part of this.

00:47

And this is your first time on the show, so I thank you for giving the time.

00:52

But also I'd like for you to tell us a little bit about yourself, because the reason why I invited Michael today is we're going to be talking about the subject of the second commandment.

01:01

We're going to be talking about whether or not pictures, images, carvings of Jesus as the God-man, do those things violate the second commandment? But I asked Michael here today because I think he and I share a little bit of a disagreement on this, but that's fine because we're brothers in Christ and we're going to love each other both before and after the conversation.

01:21

But Michael is also, he is one of the people that is known as a Presbyterian.

01:29

I didn't think we were going to say that.

01:30

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:32

Well I guess it's out now.

01:34

Michael is, but hasn't always been.

01:38

He's a former Baptist, turned Presbyterian, and he doesn't know it, but I'm going to be reeling him back in.

01:42

Oh, that's what the real topic is.

01:43

Yeah, the real topic.

01:45

But Michael, tell us a little bit about yourself.

01:47

Thank you, brother.

01:48

So Michael McKendree from Jacksonville, Florida, was raised actually as an independent Baptist, so fundamentalist, King James only.

01:57

My wife had to one time sign an agreement that she would never wear pants, only skirts, so that's kind of the upbringing that we came up in.

02:07

And one day, I was a youth pastor in the Independent Baptist Church and a young man came to me and said, I see you have a book there by Platt called Radical.

02:21

You know he's a Calvinist, right? And I said, no, he's not a Calvinist.

02:25

It's a great book.

02:27

And so then I started researching and sure enough, he's a Calvinist.

02:30

Well, he couldn't be the dreaded five-point Calvinist.

02:35

Yeah, well he was.

02:36

And then, you know, he brought to attention some other books that I had from Spurgeon and others in my library.

02:42

And I was taught from my education at Pensacola Christian College that the greatest heresy of our day is Calvinism.

02:51

I actually left, my family left our first Independent Baptist Church that I grew up in because of a youth pastor who claimed to be a three-point Calvinist.

03:02

Three points was enough to get you.

03:03

Which was pretty much just a Baptist.

03:05

I mean, I don't know.

03:07

But yeah, that was enough for us, my parents and me to leave.

03:12

And so then I go to college and hearing the same thing, Calvinism is heresy.

03:16

I graduated from there and then went to be, for a short amount of time I was a missionary in Honduras with the Independent Baptist Church.

03:24

And then I took a call as a youth pastor in Houston.

03:28

And there's a youth pastor, that's when this gentleman began to bombard me with these questions on Calvinism.

03:33

It wasn't very long before I was convinced from, you know, the key texts of Romans 9 and really the plethora of the New Testament's use of Calvinistic language, you know.

03:50

And so it really began where I would, I brought questions to my pastor and to others, my dad, and others that I trusted.

04:00

Okay, so if this is not what we believe, what is this saying then? And I really did not get good answers.

04:08

I didn't get any answers.

04:09

The only thing I got was, if you're a Calvinist from my pastor, what I got was, actually not if you're a Calvinist, but if you believe these things and you are a Calvinist, then you have two weeks here.

04:20

So, I basically had two weeks to, you know, go.

04:26

I ended up moving back to Jacksonville as a Reformed Baptist, was convinced of the doctrines of grace, but really didn't know much more other than that.

04:39

You know, obviously the Reformed doctrines are much more than just the doctrines of grace.

04:44

There's a lot more involved with that.

04:47

And I came to be a Reformed Baptist, was eventually an elder in the Reformed Baptist church, and the pastor, who I still love to this day, was faithful in discipling me and showing me a historic faith, a confessional faith.

05:04

And I really grabbed a hold to that.

05:08

And his mistake was giving me too many Puritans and Presbyterians to read that I eventually agreed with.

05:15

So, a couple years ago, we made the leap from the London Baptist Confession, which the second one, which is what I held to to the Westminster, which is what I hold to now.

05:26

And we received a call here this year from our church, Grace Covenant Presbyterian in Hilliard, Florida.

05:35

Yep, Jesse Pickett is the pastor.

05:36

He's a dear friend of mine, and if he watches, hey Jesse, good to see you.

05:39

Yeah, he said he's actually preached in our pulpit before.

05:42

That's great, a great man of God.

05:44

And the church issued a call to me, and they have sent me to seminary.

05:48

I'm at Greenville studying to be a minister in the Presbyterian church.

05:53

Wonderful, wonderful.

05:55

Yes, sir.

05:55

Well, that's a great story, a great overview of who you are, and how you got to where you are, and you didn't grow up a Presbyterian or anything like that.

06:04

This is something that you've come to by conviction, and while we may share some different convictions, it is interesting to see, because it's one thing when you meet somebody who, you know, like I wasn't brought up a Baptist.

06:16

I was brought up in the Disciples of Christ church, you know, and so I became a Baptist in that sense by conviction, you know, because that it was not what I was brought up to believe.

06:27

In fact, I remember the first time people heard me talking about eternal security, and this is well before Calvinism.

06:32

This was just the Baptist once saved, always saved.

06:34

They were, oh, well, you're one of them Baptists.

06:36

Yeah, you're one of them, you know, and so it's funny to see how we grow, and how we change, and how the Lord leads us.

06:43

And so the reason, again, why we're the subject of today, after we, now that we've gotten to know you a little bit, and introduced you to the audience, is the subject is one that comes up online all the time, especially in regard to the upcoming holiday.

07:00

I'm gonna move my computer a little bit, so I can see my Bible better.

07:02

The upcoming holidays are, particularly the Christmas holiday, there's going to be a lot of people who are decorating both their churches, and their homes, with all kinds of different items, and one of the things that often is used is the nativity set.

07:21

Right.

07:21

Where there will be a picture of, or a statue of Joseph, and a statue of Mary, and then a little a little feeding trough with a little baby Jesus.

07:31

And a couple of years ago, as I was interacting online with different folks, the Reform Pub, are you on the Reform Pub? I was.

07:41

I think I was kicked out.

07:43

Oh, were you? Look at you, look at you.

07:45

Well, I got too heavy one time in a debate or something, I don't remember.

07:50

I had left on my own accord at one point, because it just seemed like it had gotten contentious all the time.

07:55

Yeah.

07:56

But I became friends with Les Lamphere, he was on the program, I interviewed him.

08:00

Oh, great.

08:01

And so I went back, because I wanted to be able to interact with him some more.

08:05

He's a good dude.

08:06

Oh, absolutely.

08:06

He's a good dude.

08:08

And Tanner is a member of Ortega Prez in Jacksonville.

08:13

That was the, when the Reform Pub started, it was the two, it was Tanner and Les.

08:19

Oh, nice.

08:20

Okay, so I didn't know that.

08:21

Maybe, well, him being in town, I wonder if he...

08:23

You should, you should grab him.

08:24

Maybe we'll reach out to him.

08:24

He's a doctor, so I think he has a pretty tough schedule, but he'd be great to have on.

08:29

Well, good deal.

08:30

Well, like I said, and if you ever hear this, Tanner, you're welcome.

08:33

If I can't reach you, you reach out to me.

08:36

But yeah, we, so as I was saying, every Christmas, for the last couple years, I've noticed online, particularly in the Reform Pub, but other Facebook groups as well, that there would be pictures of nativity scenes with a big X over them, or a, now the new thing is a, looks like a, looks like a shield, and it says 2CV shield.

08:59

Like it's a, it's a second commandment shield, and it's a, and it goes over the picture of the Jesus in the, in the manger.

09:07

I've seen people that take the children's story Bibles, and they put smiley faces over the face of Jesus in the Bible.

09:15

Yeah, because this, this goes to a bigger issue.

09:17

It's not just something that happens with nativity scenes, but we're dealing with the issue of any pictures at all, any representation of Christ, whether it be in a storybook Bible, whether it be as a picture of Jesus on a wall.

09:31

You know, I know a lot of churches, when you walk in, there's that, that sort of middle age, viking-looking Jesus with the long blonde hair, and the blue eyes, you know, the very Mormon Jesus.

09:41

Yeah, I think Vaughty Baucom calls him the hair model Jesus.

09:45

Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly.

09:47

So we're, so the question becomes, is that truly a violation of the second commandment, or is that not a violation of the second commandment? And this is something that there is disagreement about within the Reformed community, and Mike and I had lunch together before we did the program, and so we were able to sort of talk about, even within the Reformed community, you've got guys like Michael Horton who would say, yes, it's a sin, and then guys like R.C.

10:17

Sproul that would say, no, it's not a sin, and both of them godly men.

10:20

I mean, we would hold both of them up as standards of godliness and preaching, and so neither, so the point of me saying that to the audience, first of all, is to say, if you disagree with either of us at the end of the day, know that we're not, neither one of us are calling you a heretic or that you're outside of the faith, but as with anything, there are levels where this can become very important, and it can lead to sin, and I'm willing to say that even though I'm going to probably take a slightly different nuance than you will, I do think there are areas where this can become very sinful, and I mean, I didn't bring any with me today, but I may throw it in here if I get a chance to edit them in later.

11:04

If you see the pictures, especially in South America and other places where Catholic churches have statues of Christ or statues of the Virgin Mary, and people are bowing down to them, and they are holding their feet and praying to that statue, I mean, I think that all of us would say, yeah, that's an issue.

11:25

I think the question becomes the issue of, okay, well, but is the chosen sinful? Right.

11:32

Passion of the Christ.

11:34

Passion of the Christ, or back in the 60s they had, or the 70s, they had what was called the Jesus Film Project, and that's been used by missionaries to show the gospel to different areas.

11:45

So those are some things that we're going to talk about when we get there, but what I'm going to ask you to do now, brother, is I would like for you to just take a few minutes, as long as you want, share why you feel strongly on the position that you take, and you do take the position, correct me if I'm wrong, that images of Jesus do violate the second commandment.

12:04

Yes.

12:04

And you, okay, and if you'd like— Or the third.

12:07

Or the third, okay.

12:07

Yeah, and I'll explain that to you.

12:08

We have our Bible open here if you want to read.

12:10

Sure.

12:13

So the, let's see, Exodus 20, and it begins with verse 4.

12:18

It's at the beginning of the—actually, this would be the first commandment, would be verse 4.

12:28

Well, let's just read the first and the second.

12:30

So, you shall have no other gods before me.

12:34

You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth.

12:44

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

13:02

Then the third one comes in verse 7, because I'm going to mention that.

13:05

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

13:09

So, the basic understanding of the second commandment is that it is different from the first commandment.

13:17

So, what's interesting is, historically, those who don't have any problem with images, like you mentioned those in Central and South America who would very clearly be violating the second commandment because they're literally bowing down to a statue.

13:33

What's interesting is in those traditions, typically Roman Catholic or even Lutheran, they would not see images of Christ being any sort of violation of the commandment.

13:45

If you look at their ten commandments, they have the second commandment completely gone.

13:53

So, in the Catholic and in the Lutheran ten commandments, the first and the second are lumped into the first.

14:00

And then they carry through.

14:01

The second is actually not to take the Lord's name in vain.

14:04

We say that's the third commandment.

14:05

And then so on.

14:06

And then when you get to the tenth commandment, they have two that say coveting.

14:11

So, nine and ten are about coveting for them.

14:14

And they separate them.

14:16

It's really odd to me.

14:17

The ninth and the tenth are separated, but the first and the second are put together.

14:21

But I think that that reveals to us kind of their mindset that they do not see a distinction between the first and the second.

14:29

So, what is the distinction between the first and the second? The first is that you have no gods before God.

14:36

That is who you're worshiping.

14:38

And then the second is how we are to worship him.

14:42

So, there's a distinction there.

14:46

Not just bowing down, but the way that we worship God.

14:51

I would argue that images of Christ, if you are fine with them in any way, it would be an unnecessary blending of the first and the second.

15:04

So, what I mean by that is, it seems like those who hold that view would strictly read the second commandment as literally bowing down to an idol or a statue.

15:17

Not necessarily an image.

15:20

Whenever I say image, I mean a painting or a picture.

15:25

Or even the Westminster Catechism mentions imaging God in our minds even.

15:33

So, having a mental picture would even violate that in our view.

15:38

So, the basic concept is that images of anyone in the deity, in the Godhead rather, that'd be God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.

15:49

Any image of them, whether that's a statue, like a nativity set, or if it's a picture of the Holy Spirit or of God.

15:58

You know, I've seen images of drawings from the Renaissance of God the Father.

16:06

Even.

16:07

Yeah, Michelangelo's picture of Adam reaching up to God and that's supposed to be the Father.

16:13

Exactly.

16:13

And I think that everyone that's Reformed would agree that that is a violation of the second commandment.

16:19

I believe.

16:20

Even R.C.

16:20

Sproul would.

16:21

R.C.

16:21

Sproul would.

16:21

And I don't want to take away from your time, but he did say in the video I found on him speaking on this, he said he does believe any physical representation of the Father is a violation of the second commandment, which I thought was a little interesting.

16:34

Yes, yes.

16:35

So, any image of the Father or the Spirit.

16:39

But, yeah, we'll get into the distinctions there of what R.C.'s view is because I think most Reformed Christians would have either my view or R.C.

16:49

or some variation of R.C.'s view.

16:52

So, with the nativity set, one thing that I think we should consider is, I remember going to my mom's house recently when I was convinced, after being convinced of the view that I now hold, I didn't even realize it, but you see Jesus, you see His face everywhere.

17:10

And I think whenever you come to this view, you're a little bit more sensitive to it because you're trying not to go against your conscience of what you believe.

17:20

And I remember my mom had a little nativity set and it wasn't even people, it was little bears.

17:25

There was a little bear Mary, and you've probably seen those, and a little bear Joseph.

17:30

I've seen Legos.

17:31

Yeah, and a little, and there was a little bear Jesus.

17:33

And I was like, doesn't that kind of illustrate, to some level, isn't that kind of blasphemous even? That we would represent our God by an animal.

17:46

That seems to, even if you're fine with images of Christ, that should at least, I would think, be, you would say that's not best.

17:53

But, and my kids, we were trying to teach them kind of this view that we had, and we were pretty new to the view of that I'm explaining.

18:03

And we probably did a poor job of explaining it to our young children.

18:07

We have five kids now.

18:08

And so when we saw these nativity sets at my mom's, my then, I think he was about five years old, my oldest son went to his grandmother in despair and said, Nana, why do you worship idols? And of course, I would not be, I don't agree with that, you know, I don't think she's worshiping an idol.

18:29

But yeah, and I tried to soften that over because I'm not a jerk.

18:33

All Presbyterians are not jerks.

18:35

But they're always the best part of my short videos.

18:39

Yes, yes, with the cigars.

18:40

They say what needs to be said.

18:44

So, I guess to summarize the view, it is that any image of God is a violation of the second commandment because it is necessarily, it necessitates that once you view an image of God, that that would cause a Christian, a believer, that would cause their heart to swell up with worship.

19:14

And the second commandment very clearly tells us that we aren't to use images in order to draw us into worship.

19:22

That's the issue with whether it be a carved statue or just an image like a picture.

19:27

It shouldn't cause us to worship.

19:30

And then the reason why I read the third commandment is because my position would be that you might say, well, I can see an image like Jim Caviezel who was the actor in The Passion of the Christ.

19:42

I can see that and he didn't cause me to worship Christ.

19:45

So, I saw it but it didn't cause worship to swell up into my heart.

19:51

Then I would say that image of Jesus is causing you to violate the third commandment, which is not taking the Lord in a vain way.

20:00

I would say that any time that you imagine or see God, it ought to cause you to worship.

20:09

It should cause your heart to worship God if you see him in any way.

20:13

And if it doesn't, then you're imagining him in a vain way.

20:17

And I think that that would violate the third commandment.

20:19

So, I think that images of Christ necessarily cause you to violate either the second or the third commandment because of those two reasons.

20:30

Okay.

20:31

All right.

20:32

And I want to mention, too, for the audience, there's some, as I said, this is a big debate that happens on Facebook and other places, but some of you may have never heard this before.

20:41

Sure.

20:42

So, and I will say this, I had not heard this particular position expressed until several years ago when I started seeing it come up online.

20:51

I had always heard of groups that would say that we shouldn't have crosses and things like that because we shouldn't have any type of images in the church at all.

21:05

Right.

21:07

But I had not really tied it to the second commandment.

21:10

I hadn't heard that particular view until, like I said, until the last few years.

21:15

And what happens is when somebody's never heard that perspective, I think they automatically say, well, I'm not worshiping Jesus.

21:25

I'm not worshiping.

21:26

And what you just said sort of helps define what you mean.

21:30

And I hope that that was helpful because I remember even in a conversation with a lady in our church because, as I said, I don't hold to this position, but I try to keep in mind that there are people who do.

21:42

And as trying to be a gentle shepherd, I would avoid these things within the church for their sake.

21:52

You know, I'm not going to print a bulletin with Jesus's face on it or something because I don't think it's useful to cause that, you know, issue.

22:02

Right.

22:03

You know, however, there was, because we said, it was last Christmas, I think it was, it was a lady in the church, and I said something about the major scene or something.

22:15

And she said, well, what's wrong with that? I said, well, some people see that as a violation of the second commandment.

22:19

And she couldn't understand why.

22:21

She couldn't understand what made it a violation of the second commandment.

22:26

She felt like that was so foreign to her, didn't make sense to her.

22:29

So I appreciate you explaining that position because hopefully whoever else hears this, they'll be able to at least go and say, okay, that makes sense.

22:37

Even if I don't agree, it makes sense what is being said.

22:40

And I hate to keep saying I disagree.

22:43

Because I think we'll find more common ground than we realize as we go through this.

22:48

But I do want to, I want to give sort of where I would be on this.

22:53

And as I said, we're not doing this, this is not a debate.

22:56

This is not, I didn't invite Michael to come and, you know, we don't have a moderator.

22:59

We're not here debating, even though I enjoy that.

23:02

Sure.

23:02

But I want to say, okay, here's where I would probably fall more on the Sproulian side.

23:09

You would be maybe on the Michael Horton side.

23:12

And here are the thoughts.

23:15

One, and this is, I did print out some, an article from the internet, that just makes a good point in the first couple paragraphs.

23:21

It says, this general question has been debated since the early centuries of the Church.

23:26

It was the subject of the Seventh Ecumenical Council in 87-87, and has been an ongoing point of disagreement between various leaders of the Reformation and their theological heirs.

23:35

Lutherans, for instance, teach that Christians are, and churches are free to have icons, crucifixes, paintings, and other visual media of Christ, but many Reform traditions teach otherwise.

23:44

I think that's, I think it's fair to say, yeah, this isn't something that everyone within the Reform camp will always come down on the same side.

23:52

And even over lunch, you and I mentioned, or you mentioned, that when someone is coming up through the presbytery for ordination, they have the opportunity in the PCA to give objections to certain parts of the Westminster standards, which would include the Westminster Confession and the Westminster Shorter and Longer Catechism.

24:12

So, and you said the two that normally come up as exceptions are regarding the Fourth Commandment, which is the Lord's Day, Sabbath, and then the Second Commandment, which is regarding images.

24:24

Right, exactly.

24:25

And so, am I correct to say, so even within Presbyterians, there's a little difference.

24:33

Absolutely, yeah.

24:33

Definitely in the PCA.

24:35

I'm going to take the Bible back now.

24:35

Yes, sir.

24:36

But also, to say that, if you want to look this up, I believe it is 109, right? Question 109? I believe so.

24:47

I can look it up real quick.

24:48

Okay, if you would.

24:49

Yeah, there is a specific reference to this in the Westminster Catechism, which says that the making of any image of Christ, in the mind even, and that was the point that really, I remember you said it online, you said, because we were talking about the show and getting ready, and you said, yeah, you said even if somebody thinks about what Christ would have looked like, that that could be a violation.

25:20

Which, I mean, I'm willing to concede, yes, you can make idols in your mind, because, I mean, that's what that's what Calvin said.

25:26

We are a factory of idols.

25:27

We are constantly producing idols.

25:29

Right.

25:30

But I never even considered that, because it just didn't register with me that that would even be a problem.

25:37

Right.

25:37

But do you have it? I do.

25:39

It's kind of long.

25:40

Let me see if I can find just the, it says, so the question is 109, what are the sins forbidden in the second commandment? The sins forbidden in the second commandment are all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself.

25:59

Let me get to the part that mentions either inwardly in our mind or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever.

26:09

And it goes on to explain more, but that's the portion that you were But it is number one.

26:16

109 of the larger catechism.

26:18

Okay, so if you want to look that up for yourself, you can go to go online, look up Westminster larger catechism, and look up question 109, and you'll be able to read the entire paragraph on that subject.

26:29

Yeah.

26:29

All right, well, here's where I think I would make a distinction, which again wouldn't necessarily be completely different, but would be a slight difference.

26:42

You said about the first and second commandment being different, and I do think that it is important to make a distinction between the first and second commandment.

26:49

Of course, the first commandment is having other gods before the Lord, and this of course forbids us from having any other gods.

26:57

And the second commandment is to not make any images, any carved image, any likeness, or anything that is in heaven, and to call that thing God.

27:07

And I think that's what we see in chapter 32 of Exodus when Moses is up on the mountain, and he hasn't come back down, and so the people say make for us a god, and they take all their earrings off, and all their rings, and everything, and they put it in the fire.

27:24

I always like how Aaron says, I put it in this cow came out, this calf came out.

27:28

Like they didn't fashion it, it just came out, right? Like it just magically appeared.

27:34

No, no, no, they fashioned this calf, and then they said, this is the God who led you out of Egypt.

27:42

This is the God who, this is Yahweh.

27:47

And so I do see a connection between that and the second commandment as being that you're actually saying that this is God.

27:57

So that's, I think, the first thing that people on my side, or more my side, would say, that the prohibition of the second commandment is not just the formation of something, but the actual attestation to that thing, that that thing is, in fact, Yahweh, or that thing is to be worshipped.

28:17

So, and I know you probably won't jump in.

28:21

But these are, just given the position, so that would be the first sort of response.

28:28

The second, or not response, but the position would be making an image of Christ in the sense of carving an image, or taking a photograph of something, or anything, wouldn't be for the purpose of worship in that sense, that we're not saying this is God, or this is Jesus, or anything else.

28:49

The second thought is the idea of when we say that any image in the mind would cause us to necessarily have worship.

29:05

I think about the fact that the Bible does give us images of Christ that we can have in our mind.

29:14

I mentioned this to you at lunch.

29:15

We have Revelation chapter one talks about having hair like wool, and a beard, and eyes like fire, this picture.

29:24

And then we see this later in Revelation chapter 20, where, or Revelation 19, rather, where he comes on a white horse, and a sword comes out of his mouth.

29:33

We're given those images in writing that do, by necessity, translate into something in our mind.

29:41

We all have an idea of what that picture is going to look like.

29:45

Christ returns.

29:48

Whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent, we all have a thought about what that's going to be.

29:53

And that's where I would say, so is that image, and you don't necessarily have to answer him, just saying this is working this out in my own mind, is that image itself necessarily? Because the scripture tells me this is what it's going to be, and this is what it's going to look like.

30:08

And so there are times where the scripture gives us images to consider or to imagine from the writing of scripture.

30:18

Moreover, I think the third part, and this gets to the issue of where Michael Horton argued for Nestorian heresy on this, but I'm going to describe it, and then I'm going to explain.

30:34

Ah, he took my thunder.

30:35

I was about to drop that.

30:36

Okay.

30:37

Man.

30:37

Oh, that's okay.

30:38

Well, and the Nestorian heresy is an essential separation between the divinity and the humanity of Christ.

30:49

Right.

30:50

And so the argument there is that where some would say, well, we're not representing the divinity of Christ, we're only representing the humanity of Christ, therefore it would not violate creating an image of something in heaven, right? And so, but they would say, no, that's Nestorianism, because now you're saying Christ cannot, you know, there's a portion of Christ that could not be God or whatever, or subdividing his nature.

31:21

Yes.

31:21

And therefore doing violence to the hypostatic union and all those things.

31:25

So anyway, getting back to, we're going to talk about that more, so I'll kind of leave that on the table.

31:33

But we do have to consider that Christ was a man who was visible to other men.

31:40

God the father has never been visible to men that we know of.

31:44

I mean, the scripture says no one has seen the father, the only begotten son, you know, he has made him known.

31:50

And the only visible manifestations of the spirit that we know of are the ones that the scripture gives us, such as the dove or, you know, the pillar of smoke and fire in the old covenant.

32:03

And this would lead me to some questions.

32:04

I know we're going to get to a back and forth of questions.

32:06

And one of the questions, just to give you, would be like, okay, so if it's wrong to give a representation of Christ, would it then be wrong to give a representation of the spirit as a dove? Or would it be wrong to give a representation of the fiery bush? Right.

32:25

And the reason why I asked that specifically is right over there is a Ligonier study Bible.

32:30

Oh yeah, I love that.

32:31

Their logo is the burning bush.

32:34

Right.

32:34

So is their logo...

32:36

Or like Aslan.

32:38

Yeah.

32:39

Or a lot of times with ancient art, you'll see Christ represented by a lamb with a spear that he's holding.

32:46

I think he's holding a spear.

32:47

But you'll see that lamb representing Christ.

32:50

Yeah.

32:51

Well, let's go ahead.

32:52

I think that I've explained where I see the difference.

32:55

I see the difference in the issue of worship.

32:57

I don't think that necessarily having an image automatically, you would say it automatically creates worship or it should automatically create worship.

33:03

I don't think necessarily that it does.

33:06

And one last thing, because in the Old Testament particularly, we have the temple which represented heavenly things, particularly the cherubim, which were on the altar of the mercy seat.

33:21

And this does say, it says anything in heaven above not to make images of.

33:26

And yet they're commanded to create images of angels.

33:29

They're commanded to create this temple, which represents the heavenly sanctuary.

33:35

Right.

33:35

And therefore, does this now...

33:37

Do we now limit this only to Trinitarian categories of father, son, and spirit when it says anything, don't make a likeness of anything that is in heaven above? Right.

33:49

All right.

33:49

So I'm gonna let you push back a little bit.

33:52

Yeah, those are good.

33:53

Now we can go back and forth.

33:53

I'm trying to remember your first one that I wanted to get back to.

33:56

Was it before the Nestorian thing or? Yes, it was.

34:00

The first thing I said was about going to Exodus 32.

34:03

Yes, that's it.

34:04

They said they called it God.

34:05

Yes.

34:06

So that's actually a key text that you'll see a lot of Puritans using to defend.

34:11

William Perkins is one.

34:13

Oh, and before I forget, I would like to recommend this because I don't want to forget.

34:17

Knowing God by J.I.

34:19

Packer was the main text that convinced me of the view.

34:23

And you'll find it in chapter four.

34:25

So if you have the book, it's a classic.

34:27

You should get it anyways.

34:28

The whole book's good.

34:29

But just chapter four has like five or six pages.

34:32

You can read it in 10 minutes.

34:34

And it's his defense of, he defends the view much better than me.

34:39

And this book is available on the Sovereign Grace Family Church table for only $10.

34:43

There you go.

34:43

Good plug.

34:44

That's right.

34:44

Yeah.

34:44

That's free.

34:47

So there you go.

34:47

Knowing God.

34:48

You should get it anyways.

34:49

But chapter four would explain my view.

34:52

So and one of the key texts that we would use is the Golden Calf.

34:57

Because it's interesting that they don't say that this is Baal or that this is a bull God.

35:05

And he's the one that brought us out of Egypt.

35:07

They actually say, we would say that they say this represents Yahweh.

35:11

So they're worshiping Yahweh through the bull.

35:15

I don't think that they made a different God in their minds.

35:19

I don't think they were trying to make a different God.

35:21

I think they were just trying to worship the same God, but through the wrong means.

35:26

So they worship Yahweh through the means of this bull.

35:30

I think they were, the sign of the bull was a sign of strength.

35:33

And so they were giving that to Yahweh.

35:37

Which violates the principle of worshiping God how he's prescribed for us to worship him.

35:45

The second one, you're gonna have to give me your points again, my memory.

35:49

Well, I'm doing, I don't have any notes or anything.

35:51

I know.

35:51

My second point was, I said that we do see images of Christ that we are essentially, because our imaginations work like they do.

36:03

It's just like, I learned something when I was a kid.

36:05

I don't know if you know this.

36:05

You can't look at a word without reading it.

36:07

Did you know that? And I tried, ever since I heard that, I've tried my whole life to look at a word, not read it, but you can't.

36:15

It's by nature, once you become literate.

36:18

Once you see it, you're reading it.

36:19

You see it, you have read it.

36:20

Because your mind automatically translates those figures into a word.

36:27

And the same goes for when I say to you, ball, you're automatically.

36:32

Don't think of a pink elephant.

36:34

It's impossible.

36:35

Exactly.

36:35

It's impossible.

36:36

So the argument, and again, I'm not making this on an argument, just a point, is that the scripture says, and again, I don't have to go read it to you, but you can read it in Revelation 1, Revelation 19.

36:46

Right.

36:47

It says, this is what he looked like.

36:48

He had, you know, in chapter one, it's the candlesticks.

36:53

He's surrounded by the candlesticks.

36:55

He's got the, each one of them is representing one of the seven churches.

36:58

And he has, and I always think about it, because the picture, we often think of God, incorrectly, we often think of God as almost like a Santa Claus figure, right? That's the picture a lot of people have.

37:11

That's almost, if you think about the picture of Michelangelo's, Adam and God on the Sistine Chapel.

37:15

He's big, big, white.

37:16

It's like a buff Santa.

37:17

Yeah, it's like Santa who went to the gym, you know, a Bailey's powerhouse Santa.

37:23

So you've got Santa, figure, beard and everything.

37:28

And you say, well, where does that come from? Well, there is, at least in the scriptures, this idea of him having hair like wool and a beard, you know, and fiery flaming eyes.

37:38

And you can't read that without imagining, at least somehow, in my mind, I'm saying, and so have I sinned by imagining that? Right.

37:50

I think it's interesting, all through the Gospels, we never get any, it actually was going to be one of my points, but then you kind of went in a different direction.

38:01

But one of my points was that all through the Gospels, you don't see any description of what Jesus looked like.

38:08

I think the only description of Jesus that I'm remembering is in Isaiah, where it basically says that he wasn't comely to look upon.

38:15

There's nothing special about him.

38:18

He didn't come as a king.

38:19

He came as a poor man, a carpenter's son.

38:23

But not much description.

38:25

Isn't there one, some of the Gospels said they ripped out part of his beard? Sure.

38:28

And I think that that's actually in Isaiah also.

38:30

And that's the only indication of what he even had as far as a facial feature.

38:34

He did have, he was reformed.

38:35

The A, man, very good.

38:38

I don't trust reformed men that don't have beards.

38:41

It's just not, yeah.

38:43

But go ahead, I'm sorry.

38:44

So he has a beard and, you know, maybe the descriptions in Revelation, I would, I think, I can't think of any that are literal.

38:56

So, eyes as fire.

38:59

Okay, but he doesn't have flaming eyes.

39:01

He would have scared everybody while he's walking around as a man, if he had fire coming out of his, or sword coming out of his mouth.

39:06

Sure, but I would, and I agree.

39:09

I would say, though, that the Revelation is not, I would say the Revelation picture of Jesus is not the earthly picture of Christ.

39:16

But I'm still saying it's a picture.

39:17

Sure, sure.

39:18

Yeah, that one threw me, honestly, it threw me a curveball, because I'm thinking there's no descriptions of what Jesus looks like.

39:24

And then you mentioned the ones in Revelation.

39:25

I hadn't thought of those.

39:28

So would it be sinful to think about those? I would think that that would be similar to thinking of Aslan, or like, I wouldn't have an issue with my kids watching Chronicles of Narnia.

39:39

It's a symbol that represents him, almost in the same way that writing the word Jesus are symbols that represent his name.

39:50

So I don't have a problem with writing the word God or Jesus.

39:54

But some do, if you really like Jewish writings, a lot of it just says G slash D or something, or the four-letter name, you know, Yahweh will be...

40:02

They'll just say Lord, or they won't say it at all.

40:04

Or Adonai, or whatever, yeah.

40:05

Yeah, yeah.

40:06

So I wouldn't have a problem with symbolism like a sheep, or a lion, or letters.

40:15

I would think that the Revelation is giving a symbolism similar to that.

40:20

That's not literally what Jesus looked like, even with his hair of wool.

40:26

I don't think he walked around with woolly hair, at a 33-year-old man.

40:30

No, and I'm not saying he did.

40:32

I'm not saying that's a picture of him in his life.

40:35

Can we image those things? We can image that.

40:38

And I tell you, if he doesn't come back on a white charger, one of my elders is going to be so disappointed.

40:46

One of my elders, Brother Mike, he loves to quote Revelation 19, that Christ returns on the white horse and makes all of his enemies under his feet.

40:57

That's just a picture of victory.

40:59

Oh, sure.

41:00

Powerful.

41:01

And we're not post-millennialists, but we're amillennialists with a positive bent.

41:09

There we go.

41:10

Yeah, I agree with that.

41:11

Optimistic amillennial.

41:12

And so we can get on board when we think of Christ as victor.

41:17

Sure, absolutely.

41:17

And think of Christ as conquering king.

41:20

Right.

41:21

And that's the picture.

41:23

Right.

41:23

But the problem comes in, I remember as a young boy seeing The Passion of the Christ.

41:28

And I remember that those pictures are very graphic and vivid.

41:34

And I remember, for one, being terrified, because it's a pretty graphic film.

41:40

But the thing that I think was the worst benefit that came from it, or consequence that came from it, was I remember praying to Jesus and Jim Caviezel's head picture was in my mind.

41:54

That's a good point.

41:54

And I didn't know how – I wasn't doing that volitionally.

41:58

I didn't try to do that.

42:00

It was because that's what I had seen.

42:03

And so, like, The Chosen, I haven't seen that.

42:05

But I would think things like The Chosen and The Passion of the Christ, that seems to be a problem if you're praying to God and you have some guy's picture in your mind.

42:17

Even if you wouldn't say, that's not – I'm not praying to Jim Caviezel.

42:21

I never just prayed to Jim Caviezel.

42:22

But it's like I'm praying to Jesus, but he's the one that I'm literally imaging in my mind.

42:27

I don't know how you'd get around that that's at least a problem, you know? Darrell Bock I got you.

42:31

And I will agree with you in that, because I think that we have, when we think about – and for you it's Jim Caviezel, but a lot of the modern guys, especially younger folks, it's going to be The Chosen.

42:48

And that dude from The Chosen, he has gotten so much press.

42:53

Everywhere he goes, this is Jesus.

42:56

And he's actually, I think, and I could be wrong and I'm willing to be corrected on this, I think he's visited hospitals and stuff.

43:05

And so he's – now he's not going in saying, I'm Jesus.

43:09

But the people who see him in the film and then connect that and say, that's Jesus visited me.

43:17

Yeah, there's a problem.

43:19

I could say that.

43:21

And that's what I say.

43:21

I think there's going to be more where we would probably agree than disagree.

43:27

Things like that.

43:28

The one that always makes me laugh is the Facebook with Obi-Wan Kenobi.

43:36

Darrell Bock Oh yeah.

43:38

Darrell Bock And it says underneath, if you don't welcome me into your heart, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

43:43

I'm like, I'm not welcoming Obi-Wan Kenobi into my heart.

43:47

It's – what's his name? Ewan McGregor? Yeah, yeah.

43:51

It's – that's not Jesus.

43:53

But that is the way so many people have experienced – like my grandmother.

44:00

I love her.

44:01

She's with the Lord now.

44:02

She died a little over 10 years ago.

44:05

But she had in her home, just like – she had pictures.

44:12

And like the Lord's Supper, what is called the Da Vinci Lord's Supper.

44:16

And there were other pictures like that, little pictures of Jesus.

44:20

Some of it had a – she wasn't Catholic, but she loved tchotchke-style stuff.

44:25

So she would go to yard sales.

44:27

She would go to the yard sales of Catholics and she would – so she'd – I'd get over there and I was like, Grandma, you're going to be like, why do you have a Catholic Jesus on your wall anyway? But that Catholic picture, I do think that that does lead to an issue of misunderstanding Christ, misunderstanding who he was and putting that picture in your mind that isn't him but becomes who he is to you.

44:53

And again, the most famous painting from the Middle Ages, from what I understand, was like the Son of a King, that they had used him as a model to draw Jesus's picture.

45:05

The one with the extremely long face, where Jesus's chin is like that, is like super long beard, long face, and long hair.

45:14

Right.

45:14

And he's entirely British, entirely European, did not look anything like the Jesus of antiquity or Jesus of history.

45:24

And it was – and so yeah, obviously that's not helpful.

45:30

I don't think it's helpful.

45:31

But then again, we step back to the question of things like, you know, like missionaries who are going to use the Jesus film.

45:40

Now, I will say this.

45:41

I do like the Jesus film project.

45:43

I don't know if you're familiar with it.

45:45

I know what it is, but I've never seen it.

45:47

Okay.

45:48

What it is, is it's – it was – I think it was made in the 70s.

45:51

It was done – very well done in the sense that they took the Gospel of Luke, they didn't try to harmonize all the different Gospel stories.

46:02

They took the Gospel of Luke, and they took major events from Jesus's life from the Gospel of Luke, including birth, preaching, death, burial, and resurrection.

46:12

Right.

46:12

And they just followed the Gospel of Luke narrative.

46:14

So it's not like The Chosen, which uses a lot of extemporary – you know, The Chosen adds a lot of stuff.

46:20

Sure.

46:21

And I take major issue with that, the whole Matthew being – and they never say he's But they – Matthew in the – I never – in The Chosen – Is it like socially awkward, or what is it? Yeah, and they play it off that he's sort of not neurotypical.

46:36

Okay.

46:36

That there's something in having a child.

46:39

Very 2022.

46:40

Yes, and having a daughter with autism, I'm just not down with that.

46:43

I just don't like when autism becomes a – it was just like in the movie – there was a movie that came out a few years ago called – it was the Predator movie, where the little boy was like a superhero because he was autistic.

46:55

And I just took issue with that, because I was like, autism is – it's just like anything else.

47:01

The world just – like you said, 2022, man.

47:04

Yeah.

47:05

But The Chosen does all these extraneous things.

47:09

Right.

47:09

The Jesus Film Project, at least in my estimation – I've seen it several times – they tried to just tell the story of Jesus, and then they translated it into other languages, so that missionaries could take – Hundreds of languages, if I remember.

47:22

Yeah, oh yeah, and you can go onto their website, and you can find it in all these languages from like tribal languages.

47:30

Right.

47:30

They take a video player into these tribes, and they play it.

47:38

And so – and again, I'm not asking you to condemn them or anything, but so you would think that's not the way to do it.

47:43

Sure.

47:44

Okay.

47:44

Yeah.

47:45

Yeah, it seems clear that the preaching of the gospel is the – I mean, there's all kinds of pragmatic ways that we could reach people, but I would want to stick to preaching of the gospel.

48:00

That seems to be the main emphasis of the New Testament command to go into the world.

48:07

Not that – you know, the Jesus film, you'd say, well, quite literally, it's preaching the gospel, it's enacting the gospels.

48:13

Sure.

48:14

But it seems like a missionary who's called to go there and to preach the gospel would be the way that the New Testament describes it.

48:24

And certainly the gospel flourished for 1,800 years before media – Or 1,900 years before digital media was even available, so obviously that argument could be made as well.

48:33

Sure.

48:34

But that does lead to an interesting question.

48:37

I thought about this on the drive over today.

48:38

I just wanted to get your thought on this, because again, I'm sympathetic.

48:44

I don't hold it specifically, but I see where the area is, especially the whole chosen thing, the guy – people treat him like he's Jesus, and I think that's an issue.

48:54

And then again, when you see the Roman Catholics bowing down.

48:57

I'm just not – I'm not willing to say – and this is where I guess we would differ some – I'm not willing to say what Sproul has in St.

49:03

Andrews is wrong, because Sproul has five paintings when you walk into St.

49:07

Andrews, several of them depicting Christ, and I'm just not there where I would say that that would be.

49:12

He has a correct view now.

49:14

Okay.

49:15

And one day we both will as well.

49:17

I feel so dumb even trying to correct Sproul, because he's just a giant man of faith that I respect so greatly.

49:24

So that was completely a joke.

49:26

Well, and that's what I'm saying.

49:27

And neither one of us, like I said, are – I don't think would – are holding this so hard that we would condemn anyone.

49:34

Sure.

49:34

We would understand there are godly men that differ.

49:37

Definitely.

49:37

But getting back to the issue of do you think – and this is – I know this is a hypothetical, so this is where we're just having a fun conversation as brothers.

49:48

All right.

49:49

So obviously photographs did not exist at the time of Christ.

49:54

But had they existed and Christ had had his picture taken – Right.

50:00

I'd have to burn them all.

50:01

Got to burn them.

50:01

Got to burn them all.

50:02

Yeah, yeah.

50:03

Well, that was my question.

50:04

Do you think they would have been wrong? Yeah, that's a good question.

50:10

The issue is now that none of the images we have – that's one of the things I didn't bring up is none of the images we have are accurate.

50:19

They're all lies.

50:20

So that seems to be an issue that – because most – like R.C.

50:24

Sproul's position is that you can use them for didactic purposes, only for teaching purposes.

50:30

So he would be fine with a picture of Jesus being in a Sunday school lesson.

50:35

Mm-hmm.

50:37

But it's a lie.

50:39

Yeah.

50:39

Because that's not what Jesus looked like.

50:41

We don't know what he looked like.

50:42

In your scenario, it would be what he looked like, so I don't know how to answer that.

50:45

That's a good question.

50:46

Yeah.

50:47

It would be exactly what he looked like.

50:49

I think in God's providence, we didn't have cameras in – Yeah, yeah.

50:53

80, 30, or whatever year it was.

50:55

But this does raise a question that I'm going to ask my audience to be my investigators on.

51:00

And I will tell you this.

51:02

If you find the answer to this question and you send it to me via email – and Calvinistpodcasts at gmail.com – if you find the answer to this, one, it proves that you listened to the whole episode.

51:13

But it also – because you actually listened to the whole thing.

51:17

But also, I will give you a shout-out on a future episode if you find this answer.

51:22

And this is because I have two conflicting historical pieces of information.

51:26

We talked about this before.

51:28

Michael Horton says in his defense of Michael's position, which is the position that all images of Christ violate the second commandment, Michael Horton said that the early church forbade images of Christ and that the only ones who made images of Christ were the Gnostics.

51:48

Now, this was in a podcast.

51:50

He may have been speaking relatively off the cuff.

51:53

So he may not have been making an absolute statement.

51:55

But his point was basically that we don't see images of Christ in the early church.

51:59

What we see is the people making images were known heretics.

52:03

Okay.

52:04

Sproul, on the other hand, says that we find images of Christ in the catacombs.

52:11

Drawings – and we know there were catacomb drawings like the Cairo and the fish symbol and things like this.

52:17

We're all – Ithkus, I think I'm saying that correctly.

52:21

But he said one of the drawings was Christ at his baptism of John.

52:28

So if you can find the answer, is that – are both of them correct? Did one of them misspeak? I'd be curious because I did not have time prior to the episode to research that out for myself.

52:43

But you had a thought on that because you said the catacombs may not have violated it because it wasn't in – Yeah, it seems like – so I read Origin just last night.

52:51

I was trying to read some of – I was wondering – my question – actually, my wife asked me, what did the early church think about images of Christ? Because I think we as Protestants assume that the early church was very Catholic and Roman Catholic and that there was just images everywhere.

53:07

But there wasn't, from my understanding.

53:09

Origin is really clear on images of Christ.

53:13

But where I think Michael Horton and Sproul could possibly both be correct is that at least from the clips from Origin that I read, and Augustine actually also, which would be AD 200-ish, they were specifically referencing images of Christ in worship.

53:31

So like in the church buildings.

53:33

Didn't want any images or either pictorial or a carved image or statue of Jesus in the worship sanctuary.

53:45

So it might be that there were no images of Christ used for worship in church.

53:49

But in a catacomb or in a home, maybe they would have been okay with that in the homes or like a personal use or something.

53:58

And another thought, just as you were saying that kind of came to my mind, there might not have been – it might not have been a ubiquitous position.

54:05

There may have been people who differed.

54:07

And in this catacomb, they may have been drawing pictures of Jesus.

54:10

In this catacomb, they may not have, because there may not have been absolute unity on this particular view.

54:17

Right.

54:18

Just like there's not exactly – Those people might have been the closest to an accurate picture because, let's see, if they're drawing in a catacomb, their grandparents could have walked with Christ.

54:29

Yeah.

54:30

I mean, that's incredible to think about, you know? Yeah.

54:33

Well, guys, I hope that we have at least given you some things to think about.

54:37

I want to ask, Michael, is there any additional thing you feel like you didn't get to say or like you want to nail me before we come to a conclusion? No, not at all.

54:45

It's great.

54:46

I appreciate you asking me to come.

54:47

It was a joy.

54:49

It was fun.

54:49

And just maybe a thought, just to challenge you, I really appreciate what you mentioned, how if you have some in your church that you are sensitive to that because you know that their conscience has bound them to this.

55:03

I really appreciate that.

55:04

That's loving those that we dwell with in charity.

55:11

Like, I know that you have this conscience, and so I'm not going to blast images of Jesus all over where you would see them.

55:19

I just would say that that's a – I think that's a mark of maturity that we would walk with each other in love in a church like that, you know, respecting those differences.

55:29

Amen.

55:30

Well, thank you, brother.

55:30

And I do appreciate you coming in, and I hope to have you again soon.

55:35

Yes, sir.

55:35

We'll find something else to talk about.

55:37

I'm sure being a little bit different on a few things, we could find some things.

55:42

Or maybe we'll find something we agree on.

55:43

There we go.

55:44

Maybe we'll get somebody we could debate.

55:45

Yeah, there we go.

55:46

We could do some amillennialism.

55:48

That would be fun.

55:49

That would be fun.

55:50

Well, again, I want to thank you for being with us today on Conversations with a Calvinist.

55:53

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55:59

It helps me and helps our channel to reach more people.

56:03

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56:10

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56:19

I want to thank you again for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.

56:22

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

56:24

May God bless you.