WWUTT 640 Q&A with Costi Hinn?

Did Benny Hinn really repent of the prosperity gospel? Should we be singing songs from Bethel Church even if the lyrics aren't bad?

And how can we witness to family members caught in false teaching? Our special guest will help us answer these questions when we understand the text.

Many of the Bible stories and verses we think we know we don't. When we understand the text is devoted to the teaching of sound doctrine and warning about false teaching.

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Now here's Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. We are privileged to be on the line today with Kosti Hinn.

He is the executive pastor at Mission Bible Church in Tustin, California, and also has a brand new book out entitled

Defining Deception. Kosti, it is such a privilege to have you on the program today. Thank you so much,

Gabe. Glad to be here. Now what is an executive pastor? What does that title imply? Good question.

Some churches call it the pastor of administration or the pastor of staff, but my role is to ensure that the staff is supported well in their ministries, leadership training as well, oversee our intern program with young interns who are learning and they're preaching and going to seminary, and then to support our teaching pastor because at our church,

I don't know how it is everywhere else, but we want to make sure that that man can study and study a lot.

So in my role, my job is simple. Make sure that the preaching is solid because the man can study, and as much as I'm able and the church has allowed,

I can lead our ministry side of things with people. It's been a fun tandem.

He's a great teaching pastor. Our pastors are amazing men and love to serve in that capacity. I guess executive is like, if there's a decision to be made, you can make it, problems to deal with.

I have to. There you go. All right. It all falls on you. Now that pastor you were talking about, that's

Anthony Wood, who co -authored the book with you. Is that correct? Yes. Now tell me about your relationship with Anthony and I'm kind of getting ahead of myself here.

So first of all, Costi, of course, is probably most known as the nephew of Benny Hinn.

And you were a part of that whole Hinn empire is what I call it, and got out of that family.

And so, well, got out of the family. In a sense, you're still related by blood, but we're going to talk about a little bit of that today.

And I also want to focus on the book, Defining Deception, again, which you co -authored with Anthony Wood. Tell folks right off the bat where they can pick the book up.

And let's start there with the website, Defining Deception, where they can get the book. And then I want to ask you what the purpose was behind writing it.

Yeah. They can go to definingdeception .com. There's an entire blog roll there. There's a trailer video, information on the book, the why, what, all of that is on there, as well as some pretty awesome testimonies from people who were also rescued out of that deception.

And then the book's on Amazon in Kindle version and paperback, so it can be ordered there.

And it was published through Southern California Seminary, so great crew down there that supported the entire project.

You won't find it in Lifeway, just so you're clear. They're not carrying it right now, so that's kind of a joke, but Amazon's the way to go.

Now, the book is about, and I think that some people are probably surprised to find, that you as the nephew of Benny Hinn, your first book is not some sort of tell -all book that exposes the

Benny Hinn family, but rather you and Anthony collaborated on putting this book together, exposing the deceptions of Bethel Church, the false teaching of Bill Johnson, some of the things behind the

Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry and Jesus Culture, which is the music ministry that comes out of Bethel Church.

So why did you feel like you needed to focus in that area and alert people to the wrongness that was coming out of that ministry?

I thought it was the most important thing happening right now in mainstream evangelicalism.

So did Anthony. I'd lovingly call him Pastor Tony. But yeah, we just got together on it, and there was counsel in our corner that said, why doesn't

Kosti do the testimony book or the tell -all or whatever first? And let's build a brand and a platform, yada yada, you know how marketing people are.

And let's get the reach out there. And then the Bethel stuff, because it might be a little controversial.

And I remember him and I, maybe it's because we're nobodies with a little church in Tustin, or just because we're young, and some might call us foolish, but I think it's just smart.

We're not going to build this thing, we're not building anything on my storyline or my last name, all that stuff is irrelevant.

Truth is truth. Amen. So him and I ignored that counsel and decided that Bethel, the

NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, the third wave, and that this whole, we coined it, he actually walked into my office one day and he's like,

I got the term, I got this idea. Let's call it the Mystical Miracle Movement, because it's mysticism, it's all that miracle stuff.

Oh yeah. Let's call it something that people can go, oh, that's that thing, because in researching it, man, it's like subgroup after subgroup, rapid trail, it can get confusing.

So he comes in and says, let's call it that. I freaked out. I said, I love it. I'm going to target the fastest growing infiltrating movement for the

Church today, and I think next year, I'm working on a book already on the prosperity gospel,

I'll put the testimony on paper to help and encourage and edify. I tell it enough on YouTube and whatever,

I'm sure people don't care at this point, but it'll just be out there. And then I'll do some chapters in that book on the dangers of prosperity preaching, all the usual theological truths, and then give people the gospel, and hope that helps too.

But there's no big expose, rip on the family thing coming, it's just simple. We lived lavish and it was unbiblical teaching, and we need to help people in every way we can.

So that's kind of the big why. Amen, amen to that. You know, the first time that Becky and I were introduced to you and heard your testimony, it was the recording that you did on Justin Peters DVD, Clouds Without Water.

Just in case we do have some listeners that have not heard about how you came out of the

Benny Hinn teaching and the things that you were caught, I've seen the pictures of you, you know, standing beside your private planes and the, you know, by a,

I guess it was your private swimming pool out back your house or something like that. So just share briefly your personal testimony into how the

Lord grabbed you with the truth of the gospel and made you realize that what the family was doing was not of God.

Well, the lifestyle was everything that you see on TV with these prosperity preachers.

The swimming pool that you saw was not even my house, though we had one there. It was just my hotel room for that trip in Greece.

Wow. It was set on the Aegean Sea, which is where Paul did a little missionary work, if you remember, and so did

I, apparently. So we were out there at this hotel, we're sitting, I'm looking out over the

Aegean, and I thought we were doing gospel ministry like Jesus and Paul. And the irony, of course, is

Paul is going through madness and beatings and chaos to get the gospel out.

We're staying in $10 ,000, $20 ,000 hotel rooms doing the quote -unquote same thing.

And so we lived that life, we flew in the private plane. My uncle originally had a

G3, there were G4s and G5s, but the one that I mostly traveled on was a plane that we got from Morris Cirillo, who's another big prosperity guy, and that was a

Gulfstream 4. And you name a hotel from Travel Channel, that would have been the hotel we'd stay at, the best of the best.

And a lot of it was built on this idea that God wants people healthy and wealthy all the time, and if that they give to a ministry with good soil, that God will bless them with the desires of their heart.

And most people today, the broken and the hurting, even Christians have felt needs.

People need to pay their mortgage. People are sick. People's children are sick. Find me any parent.

They'll be the type that will pay anything and do anything to try to help their child be healthy. We all would want that for our kids.

So a prosperity preacher, like we were, targeted those felt needs and then used money as the bait and switch tool.

And so the donations rolled in, we lived like absolute rock stars. And that's not to glorify the sin, that's to say that like the world lives on business money and record label sales and movie star money.

We were doing it on donations from poor people. And so then I remember in part of the story, and this was one of the things that touched me so much about your testimony, is that it was actually your wife, who was at the time your fiance, who first was looking at to what the ministry was doing and realizing,

Kosti, look what the Bible says and look what we're doing and these things aren't going together. Wasn't it your fiance that brought you into that?

Well, yeah. So we were, I'd lived that lifestyle, et cetera, believed all the things we taught, and then

I meet this gal and my wife at the time, my gal friend, she is working at a

TGI Fridays and putting herself through school. She's a server.

She drives a Toyota Yaris, I drive a Hummer. She's this black and white, like super linear left brain thinker.

She would be great in HR or like accounting. That's my wife. She's just right, left, black, white.

I've made the joke often, she's going to make, she's having babies right now, nonstop, bless her heart.

She's an amazing wife. And when we get out of baby phase, I think she'll make a great women's teacher or something in ministry or counselor.

She'd be the type to say, what's your problem? What does the Bible say? Why are we still talking? Like, let's go do it. She's got that kind of, she's somewhat empathetic, but just very, it's the truth.

Why don't we do it? And so in those moments, I would be questioning things and wondering what in the world is happening.

I'm trying to please my family. I'm trying to marry this gal. I love her and I want to marry her.

She's godly. She is just different. In other words, she didn't speak in tongues.

She didn't come from health and wealth. My parents and family viewed her as not spirit filled because she didn't speak in tongues.

I mean, yeah, it does seem like the opposite of everything you were in at the time. And yet you were attracted to this girl and wanted to marry her.

Absolutely. I'm like subjective and mystical and a deceiver. And she is objective.

And there's nothing ethereal or mystical about her. And her integrity is through the roof.

So this blue collar family meets prosperity gospel family. And do you mind if I ask how you met?

Because you said she worked at a TGI Friday's. It doesn't sound like that was even the atmosphere you exposed yourself to.

Well, no, this is the funny part. You're right. I didn't, I never really ate at a

TGI Friday's. It would be more of some five star restaurant. So my buddy from college who

I played baseball with and we had really run the circuit together, if you will, in the world.

We were total unregenerate, just living sinful lifestyles. He meets a gal who is a believer.

He gets saved. She's like on the worship team at some church. This guy's going full in and I'm going, what happened to him?

And all of a sudden they say, hey, do you want to come to a country concert with us? We go to see at some baseball stadium out here in California.

I'm like, sure. I'm going to be the third wheel though. They're like, no, just come with us, Kosti. Just come hang. Because I'm like lonely.

I don't know what my life is crazy. And Christine was there, my wife. My car,

I was driving the Hummer. It had died because we were tailgating and throwing the football and doing all that in the parking lot the whole day.

So the battery went dead in the Hummer. My battery goes dead, yeah. At that stage in my life,

I remember that I had started to slow down. I wasn't doing the things that I had done as much before.

I was looking for stability. I was searching, really searching. And there's this gal and we all start talking because my car died.

I asked them for a jump. My friend and her and her sister had a mutual friend. Next thing you know, she tells me she goes to a

Christian university. They weren't coming to the concert the next day because we were going to church and they were going to church.

So my now sister -in -law says, oh, you're like her. She's a little church girl too and kind of makes a funny joke.

Next thing you know, I thought, I should ask this girl to dinner and get to know her. She just seemed so nice.

The kind of gal that maybe you'd bring home to mom, but it was like, I just met her. So that's how we met.

And then out of that... So God used a dead battery in a Hummer to bring you to this woman who ultimately was going to end up convicting your heart to understanding the truth of the gospel.

That's what happened right away. Wow. Wow, really? We were... And that's something no one's really ever asked me about, which is interesting.

That was a very just convicting season. I remember thinking, yep,

I'm done. Done with the old lifestyle, done with the old ways. I think I need to do things right. It's that weird portion of time when...

You know how when unbelievers are in that process, I know some people, it's like a moment and the light bulb goes off and praise

God. They remember at 854 on April 22nd, 1972, that they gave their heart to Jesus.

That's awesome. For me, it was like two years of confusion, of wanting to do the right thing, but not knowing how to do it and where to go to get support.

Yeah, I understand that. God used her big time. That's awesome. And before I knew it, we were looking at the scriptures and comparing the theology that I had believed prior.

That's incredible. So then... And we talked a little bit about this off air, so now I'm kind of bringing that part of the story into our interview.

But you were attending a church in Canada, if memory serves, and realizing that you needed to get out of the whole

Benny Hinn empire influence. And you were not married to your wife yet at the time.

Tell me a little bit about what happened there. You knew that you needed to get out. What all took place after that? So I proposed to her.

My parents are like, I don't know. And I'm like, listen, let's just figure this out together and maybe she'll get the spirit or something and you guys can be happy and we'll be fine.

So I go to Canada, Christine, she's my fiancée at the time. I'm from a

Middle Eastern home. My family, it's very traditional to have the future spouse move into the guest room or a guest quarters and then basically be trained under your mother in cooking and whatever.

You don't live together. It's all like separate. And so my fiancée, Christine, who's my wife now, moves to Canada.

I move up to Canada and we are assisting my parents. We're like the young engaged couple. I'm my father's associate pastor there.

And your father, he's the brother of Benny Hinn? Yeah. The church was similar to that same style.

So my wife is kind of the protege of my mother. I'm the associate pastor to my father.

We're getting married in like five or six months. My wife is learning to cook Middle Eastern food.

We're all like, it's like we're all going to be together and the church is really excited. And I start to do something really, really different.

I start to tell my dad, some lady in the church gave me Chuck Swindoll's book called Church Awakening. Okay.

Yeah. And it's all about like the church needs to reform and all this stuff. And he doesn't name names. You know,

Chuck Swindoll. He's a pretty, pretty easy going guy when it comes to calling certain things out. But the book was, was enough for me.

I thought this guy's right. We should just go back to the Bible. So I started telling my dad that he thinks

I'm crazy. And the Baptist got to me during college and he's going, what are you talking about?

I said, let's just, we should preach the Bible. Let's not do tongues unless there's like interpretation, which

I knew there wouldn't be really any to interpret on tongues. And I'm trying to steer the church a direction.

I've never really read any other books, no seminary training, but I keep thinking we got to get off like the crazy train and just start doing things a little bit more normal and just go back to the

Bible. At the same time, they keep telling my fiance and I that we need, we can't quench the spirit.

Christine needs to get the gifts, all that stuff. And what starts to happen is our objective desire for truth runs head on into my family's subjective desire for mysticism.

And my wife is the punching bag, essentially emotionally. And a buddy from California calls me the same week my wife and I started studying the scriptures and first Corinthians 1230 where Paul is going, not all do they, and he's listing gifts.

We had just heard prior that our family, if you have the hidden name that you need to, well, at least for me, it was prophesied that I'm going to operate in all and it was nine gifts, all nine gifts.

And that's just confusing. Christine's like, so are you going to travel and be some miracle guy? Like what's the prophecy mean?

All of that. And essentially, the scriptures knocked the domino over on tongues.

And we go, I think you're off the hook, sweetheart. You don't have to speak in tongues. We have the spirit. And I'll tell you what, after that, dominoes started falling.

We get suspect of the theology. A week later in that same week, like I said, providentially, we had friends in California.

This church I'm at now, they call, how are you doing? I said, it's terrible. Wow. I can't help my dad and his church.

They're emotionally just destroying my wife. We're getting married in like two months. This thing's gone crazy.

I don't know what to do. And he said, I'll tell you what, brother, why don't you stop trying to be your dad's hero and his church's hero and you start being your future wife's hero.

And you love her because she's going to be your first ministry. And I never heard that. Wow. That's amazing.

Ministry was like everything. And while it's important, and we all know now that certainly we're going to give an account for our ministry and our faithfulness to Christ and the gospel.

But I'll tell you what, the Lord's also going to, maybe, I don't know if he'll do it exactly this way, but the image in my mind of him kind of taking his daughter and turning her around a few times and going, does she look better now than when

I gave her to you, Kosti? How did you do with Christine? Because she was your first ministry. Did you lose your family to try to gain the whole world or did you do what

I asked you to do with your wife? And that vivid imagery in my mind was like, man, this is his daughter.

She's a daughter of the King. It just wrecked me. So I take her out on a date.

I say, we're moving. She starts crying. I think people thought I was like breaking up with her or something, just bawling your eyes out.

And I just said like, we're not playing this game anymore. There's an offer from the church in California.

They can pay me a couple hundred bucks a month. I got to get a job, they said. I don't know how we're going to live.

We're getting married the same week that they've invited us to move there. And this is after you've had the world handed to you on a silver platter, basically.

And you're having to leave all of that to go get a stipend from a church and then get a job to try to support yourself and your wife.

Yeah. And I just said like, you want to go do something crazy? Let's just go. Let's have faith and go.

And so she's totally down. She's like, let's do it. It's Orange County.

So all the places you could go, it's hard to live here. Ridiculously expensive. Rent is high.

So you look like you make decent money. And then the inflation rate, the rental rates, everything's high and peak.

So everything's relative and we're going, how do we, wait, what, like, why don't we move to the Midwest? Why don't we move somewhere else?

But God opened the door here. Well, we would have had a place for you if you did. Come on,

Gabe, where were you going? That is amazing.

And so how is, I'm sure that the relationship with your wife just improved monumentally after that.

But how has that improved for you even since then? How have you and your bride grown together after having left all of that behind?

The Lord has been gracious. We fail often at being the perfect spouse.

Everybody does. But for us, we're learning a ton all the time. We lean on older, wiser couples.

And she's in mentorship with a woman who's in her 60s, kind of a Titus II ministry.

My wife is. And I've got men around me. So it is living in the life of the church that has kept us and going back to God's word on everything.

But my wife is my best friend. And she's my helpmate. I couldn't do it without her.

My children are so blessed by her. Just two nights ago, I had to write a paper, finishing up a few more classes to polish off the

MDiv. And so I had to jet. And I hear her kind of doing the last bit of good nights to my son.

And she's quizzing him with his Bible. And she's just full of wisdom and godliness for my kids and for me.

So without the word of God, we don't have that. And because she chose to question things, and the

Lord was gracious to me as well, we're where we are. It's only by His grace. And so, yeah, she's everything.

She's a very private woman, though. She's not into any of this. Doing Skype interviews and stuff like that.

She's the real hero behind the scenes, if you ask me. But I talk a little more, so that's my job.

Well, you had mentioned to me about one of these days, maybe she will be a great women's teacher. I've told

Becky the same. I had to pull her out of her shell to get her on this program. Yeah. Quite a bit of pulling.

I think, what, two years? Yeah. So then as you got to Mission Bible Church, you're there on kind of a stipend.

You have to get another job. But you're full -time now, right, as the pastor there? Yeah, it's been, or going into six years.

Okay. So that has been a gracious thing. Yeah, within being here a couple years, the church came and said, hey, we can bring you on full -time.

I'd actually gotten a really good job. So we had more money before we went into full -time ministry, interestingly enough, like most people.

So yeah, I had a good job. And Pastor Tony said, hey, what do you think of coming on full -time?

And I was like, let's do it. And he said, here's what we can pay you. I know it's less than what you make out there, but what's your goal?

I was like, my goal, I'll be poor, whatever. I'm full -time, man. Let's do this. Let's go.

So I was allowed to come on full -time and have just been, every day is a gift from God, just to get to serve the church with all the hours that I have.

And so, yeah, full -time now. Now, just within the past year, in addition to having finished this book, you were on Headline News.

That was shortly after, I think, you and I first interacted on Twitter. They had you on HLN talking about Benny Hinn and kind of the family or the ministry that you left behind.

I'm guessing your pastors around you do a good job of keeping you humble, because you really could make a name for yourself, blowing open the whole prosperity gospel scam.

So here's the best, here's the funny thing, and probably the best advice I ever got. When I got converted, I ran into Pastor Tony's office, and basically,

I kicked the door down almost, and was like, dude, like I was freaking out. And I said, we were liars.

And he's like, yup. I've got to tell,

I've got to save people, I've got to tell the world, this is wrong. And I was young, kind of in my justice mode.

I'm like a typical millennial, injustice, not on my watch, I'm going to save the world, blah, blah, blah.

So you kind of had your own cage stage in your own way. Yeah, I have my little stage, and I'll never forget it.

And in, not these exact words, but pretty much, I'm not exaggerating or twisting this at all.

He basically said, do you want to be a pastor? I said, absolutely. Like he said, like a real one.

I said, yeah. He said, then you'll shut up, you'll do your job, you'll go to seminary, you'll be faithful, and if God decides that He will use you in any way,

He'll open the doors, and then you can go and try to change the world or whatever it is you think you'll do.

I'm sure you'll do a great job. But you can either do the in -kid thing, or you can be a real pastor, and never forget that for a very long time before you were ever saved, many other men in obscurity have been found faithful and have been faithful.

So, yeah, if you go on and change the world one day, that's great. But for now, if you want to be a real pastor, you go back to your office, you do your job and you'll be worth something more than just a big storyline.

And, dude, I'll tell you what. Very wise. I did. They took away my title. I went from being, because I was a youth pastor,

I claimed to now be a true convert at that time, and so I was PIT, pastor in training.

Okay. Basically like a fraternity pledge, like pledge in. And, you know,

I lost my title, got into seminary, and read books like nonstop, and just kind of learned to not care about all that stuff.

And two babies are really good at humbling us. Oh, yeah. Yes. And you got baby number three on the way.

Yeah. I mean, my wife doesn't care if I was on headline news or if a book is selling everywhere and people are getting, she doesn't care.

I come home and she's like, you know, go hubby, go. She's my biggest cheerleader, but she's also a reality check.

I walked in and my son is like, you know, da -da, and he has a sword because we got him the armor of God, so every day he's like trying to kill me.

Oh, that's me and my son. That's what we do. There's no time to like, wow,

I was on what, there's like zero time for that. Plus, that's not the point. Right. So, yeah,

I'm grateful. If it wasn't for the local church, I keep trying to tell people this, has nothing to do with the hymn name thing.

If it wasn't for the local church, I don't know where I'd be. It's all about the bride.

That's what Jesus promised to build. He didn't promise to build my nonprofit, my initiative, the Costigan Ministries, which there's no such thing.

Yeah. He promised to build his church and we're all a part of that and we can do our part and you've got when we understand the text and you're faithful too.

And so we're all doing something, but I don't want any of that stuff. I came out of that.

Yeah. That's such a great, yeah, such a great story for the local church. And you mentioned

Christ, I will build my church, Matthew 16, 18. That happens to be the theme of ShepCon next week, the

Shepherds Conference. Yes. So, I'll get to meet you face to face at ShepCon in California there.

So, as we're about 30 minutes into the interview here, I did want to ask you real quick before we go into,

I've got some listener questions that we want to bring up. We put it before the listeners. Hey, if you submit some questions and I ask your question for Kosti, we'll give you a copy of the book

Defining Deception. But first, I wanted to ask you real quick about the comments that Benny Hinn made last week.

It kind of looked like he was walking back the prosperity doctrine a little bit.

It may be kind of a pseudo apology for we went too far with this doctrine.

I mean, was that any genuine repentance? What was your reaction to all of that? Surely the family contacted you about it when all of that happened.

Yeah, they did. And I'll say this, I'll be the first to get excited and encouraged by admission of some level of culpability.

Now, let's stay with me here. That's great that he admits that stuff is not okay and that he went too far.

At least we can all agree now on that. But remorse is not repentance.

And I say that with love for my uncle. I'm the first. I'll throw the doors open if he repents and calls me and says,

Kosti, I don't know where to start. There's more stuff on the Internet than I can ever fix.

But I repented. I'm selling stuff. The Bentley's gone. I'm living different. I will be the first to fling the doors open and go, sure.

If he looks like Zacchaeus, then come on. And I would take the flack for it.

I know you would. All of us would. We want repentance and real, lasting fruit of that repentance.

But that's not what that was. Lots of people are praying. I got tons of messages saying, praise

God, you got to him and all this stuff. Look, at some point, old men who are in their 60s begin to reflect on their life.

Everybody knows. You think Romans 118, that the unrighteous suppress the truth.

Everybody knows. Because the Holy Spirit, like John 16 describes, he's going to convict the world of sin.

It's not just Christians that are convicted. The world is convicted by the Holy Spirit. Everybody knows when they're doing something wrong.

And my prayer is that right now is a first step of realizing he's gone too far and that it leads to a mourning of his sin and a true biblical repentance.

But his comments only affirm what we all already know, which is that the prosperity gospel is garbage, that what he taught and may still be teaching is not true and it's too far.

And we all know the Bible teaches balanced views on money. God is not trying to make everyone poor, and he's not trying to make everyone rich.

There's a balance there too. We teach about biblical money and views on money. Does that help shed a little more light from my angle?

Yes, and gives us something to pray about, that Benny and other members of the family would realize the lies that have been perpetuated and that God would grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

And I kind of wanted to ask you a little something about that next, about your relationship with the family. So do you still have some of those connections that if something like this should come up, a door has been opened for you to be able to reach out to the family and share the gospel even though you've left all of that, that whole lifestyle behind?

No, unfortunately not. I think when Jesus said in Matthew 10, 34 through 37,

I think verse 34 says specifically that he didn't come to bring peace but a sword and household, to paraphrase the whole thing or to summarize it, households are going to be divided over the

Lord. He's been the dividing line in our house, and the

Christ of the Word of Faith movement, the Christ of the prosperity gospel, the Christ of the third wave and this

Bill Johnson kind of mystical miracle thing where Jesus did his miracles as just a man in right relationship with God so you can do them too, all that stuff our family on some level has been ingrained in.

I have family members that are still holding to some of that and there's quite a bit of distance there.

They're a little frustrated. They find me unloving and they find me to be, in their view, pharisaic.

So they think you're deceived. Yeah, and then I've lost the Holy Spirit and I don't have love for people while on the flip side,

I have had family members call me, I won't name them on purpose, but they're not pastors, but family members call me from the

Hinn family and say, like, go, Kosti, go. Thank you. I think that this is great.

One of them recently was one of my aunts called me and said, I want you to know I'm proud of you.

I asked your mom if I could call you before calling you, so I hope I didn't overstep. I said, no, that's great.

And she said, I was just at the last service when your uncle was here and all

I could think of was Jesus turning the money -changing tables over in the temple, and she said,

I know you're getting a lot of flack for it, but know this, I'm proud of you. Keep going.

And she said, I love you. And in Arabic, she said, I love you, Habibi, which means my love. She said, I love you, Habibi, and keep going.

And so we're in the middle of it right now. There's a lot that is tough and literally is what the

Bible says it'll be. It's divided, but there's also great hope because there are believers in the family who are praying for repentance and not going to be compromising the truth.

So going on six years later, it's still a big issue. Yeah, it hasn't stopped, and I can give you a quick praise.

This one, I don't think my mom will mind at all. She and my father both have, in the last few months,

I'm not saying it's some wholesale repentance and we're all, everyone's just peachy, but they're starting to ask big questions.

And my mom even just recently, they asked for two copies of the book, and so I sent them the book.

That's awesome. My dad's first question was, is your father, did you talk about me in there?

I said, oh, there's a few stories to help shed light. But I said, it's just the truth and nothing but the truth.

So I hope you know I love you, and I hope you'll read it. And he said, I will. And my mom told me recently, she said, hey, what's up with Jesus Calling?

Can I send the kids one of those little Jesus Calling kids thing and all that? And I said, absolutely not.

That's what my next book's about, by the way. She said, why not?

And I said, you know how I told you to ditch the Gloria Copeland and the Joyce Meyer and all that stuff? She's like, yeah.

I said, ditch the Sarah Young, too. Open up the flap of Jesus Calling if you have a copy.

She said, I do. I said, and look what she says. I know God gave us the Bible, but I yearned for more. So she goes online and starts researching, and she calls me and says,

I'm getting rid of all of those. That lady's crazy. Way to go, Mom. I said, good for you,

Mom. She said, good job. And I said, like a good

Berean. And she goes, I want to be a Berean. Send me more. I'll look into things.

And so there's no longer an all -out war in the family in certain circles. There is intrigue.

There is support. And then there are still those that, and I won't name all their names or give you the list, but some of them are in the book in reference because they're involved with Bill Johnson.

But there is a whole segment of my family that either is working with Todd White or has graduated from the

Bethel Signs and Wonders School of Supernatural Ministry. Still very much in evangelism mode with them.

Right. That leads me into this first question, I think, really well. This actually comes from Miguel in California.

And he asked this question. I have many Charismatic and or Pentecostal friends from my past and wanted to ask, what would you consider the top three serious deceptions in the

Charismatic and Pentecostal camps? And how do we go about addressing these issues with people we know who are being deceived?

What would be your recommendation there? The top three? He asked for the top three most serious deceptions and then how we can address that with our friends and family.

Number one, the false Christ. When they diminish his deity, like the Word of Faith or certain

Charismatic circles, I would say a false Christ can't save. So that's damning for a soul.

Two, guaranteed healing is abusive. When we tell people that it's always God's will to heal.

If there's something wrong with you, just have enough faith. Just have more faith. Just give. That is incredibly dangerous.

And it abuses people because that's not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches guaranteed healing in heaven. Like a glorified body, like our treasure in heaven.

So that over -realized view on the atonement is very dangerous. It hurts people.

They're ignorant of it. And third, man, I would lump two things in together.

Biblical illiteracy and the music. Okay. So a lot of people, they don't know their

Bible in that movement because everything's built on experience. So, you know, God told me,

I'm encountering. So you could lump that in, add in another layer and say, you know, direct revelation from God.

So all of that together with the music and that whole idea that there's this special connection with God through it all, beyond the

Bible, super dangerous as well. How to reach family and friends. Keep speaking the truth in love.

And if they're not a false teacher or a heretic, then you don't necessarily have to keep them at arm's length.

The Bible is clear. If someone is completely heretical, they're a false teacher and a wolf. Like, for example,

I'm not having dinner tonight with my Uncle Benny. We got some serious divides there. There's a category for him.

So you're not at the same table together with those who are misrepresenting Christ in that way.

That's right. The fellowship is not, it's not even there. And then there's, you know, limited fellowship.

We all understand the understanding of separation biblically from people. And yet we all have

Thanksgiving with our families per se, or we have Christmas dinners or we get together. Those are the moments where, you know, you could make some relational link with people.

If they're just lost, Jude talks about it in the last several verses of the book of Jude, you know,

Jude 21, 22, 23, where he says to have mercy on those who are doubting.

He goes on to say to save others, snatching them from the burning, snatching them out of the fire.

And then he adds another category, have mercy on others with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh or polluted by the flesh.

Uncle Benny's in that category. I have mercy on him with fear. He is at arm's length. I'm scared for his soul.

And I pray that he repents. I hate the sin. I don't hate him, but I mark him.

Romans 16, 17 and 18. I mark him clearly. With others, it's a rescue operation.

So yeah, to Miguel in California, if you've got avenues for relationship where you can grab a coffee with a family member who thinks differently than you, go to the

Bible. And if it's God's word, it'll fulfill God's purpose. So give them the truth.

And we don't need to be angry about it though either. And people feel insulted by us too.

Yeah, so you're not getting into like angry brawls and fights with members of your family, but you're speaking the truth in love.

That's right. I've done that. When I first got converted, I was crazy, Gabe. My dad,

I saw him one time in that first couple of years and I pulled my Bible out. It was a MacArthur Study Bible, no less.

And I started listing the qualities in 1 Timothy 3, 1 through 7.

And I was raising my voice at my father saying, you and Uncle Benny are wolves.

I mean, everything that the angry people would want me to do, I did that first year. And I said, you need to repent.

You're not qualified. I mean, we had our moments. I'm not proud of the immaturity and the emotion of it.

And that's why new converts need a lot of help. Everybody in anger.

Try to keep them out of that cage stage. That's right. It's cage stage. You nailed it. So you mentioned in there in your answer about how dangerous the music is.

And that actually ties into our next question here from Jeremy in Alabama. He says, I belong to a church that teaches sound doctrine.

Our praise and worship is really solid as well. However, the praise band does a handful of Bethel songs.

Now the songs are theologically okay, yet it still bothers me that it's from Bethel Church. Should I talk to the praise and worship leader about this?

And if so, how would you approach it? Great question. The first thought that came to mind is

Paul's words to the church at Corinth, but he deals with it when he refers to Christian liberty.

You remember? He says, not all things are or sorry, he says, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are lawful.

Okay. I went to it. It's 1 Corinthians 6, 12. Ultimately, he's dealing with some issues there that could confuse people and he's trying to help bring clarity.

Singing a Bethel song that is not heretical with non -heretical lyrics by its very nature.

Let's say there's nothing wrong with it, right? It's just words.

Yeah, it's their version of like Amazing Grace that they do where they add in different lyrics and do the Amazing Grace chorus, something like that.

That's right. Or it would be comparable as well when my uncle or a false teacher preaches a great gospel sermon.

Justin Peters told me one time, you know, Kosti, for all the flack I give your uncle, I want you to know

I've heard him preach a better gospel than some men I know. He's preached good gospel sermons. And then the common follow -up is, you know, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while or a broken clock is right twice a day.

Sure, you could sing some lyrics that Bethel originated or wrote, but are you confusing your people and how many times do you want to answer the question,

Pastor, Bethel is clearly heretical, right? Absolutely, Sister Sally or whoever.

Well, why do we sing songs that have their name on our screen or we have to pay the royalties to sing those lyrics or whatever else?

Well, and you gotta keep explaining things over and over. We've got great Christian music, there's great classic hymns, we've got tons of young people if you want contemporary sound in our churches, have them play and start a band for your church that's sound.

There's no shortage of things out there that we can be using. Right. That's right. If you like the old sound, well, get four of the ushers to be a quartet and sing your heart out and have a good time.

But we don't need to confuse people. I'll leave it at that. Okay. So the advice to Jeremy would be, yes, maybe you should approach the members of your church that are making those decisions, but be kind about it, be gentle about it and not try to, you know, thump somebody over the head with something.

Absolutely. All right. One more question Last question. This comes from Neil in South Carolina and he said to me in the email he gave,

I have a very pressing question for Kosti Hinn. Please ask this of him. Kosti, do you eat pizza with pineapple on it?

Absolutely not. What? There's like a schism.

There's a schism going on right now with pineapple on pizza. Do we need to have a church history 200 years from now we'll talk about the counsel of the pineapple controversy?

See, right here you're actually talking to two people who will eat ham and pineapple pizza. We do. We like it. I'm sorry.

That's why we Oh, it's okay. That's why we waited until the end of the interview to ask that in case it would result in Kosti hanging up on us or something like that.

Well, each one of our listeners who submitted a question today is receiving a free copy of the book

Defining Deception. It is a wonderful read. A very easy read. I loved the way that you and Anthony structured everything.

Not just you know going head on into glory clouds and the fire tunnels and all that stuff that Bethel Church is known for but also going into the history of the things that Bill Johnson wants to elevate and present to people as like Christmas incredible church history which is not.

I think one of the things that I found most fascinating about that particular chapter where you're going through the pillar figures that Bill Johnson lifts up is just how immoral their lives were and yet these individuals are being lifted up as like a picture of the way that we need to be as Christians.

Yep. It's there. The pushback we got is you know don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Of course. these guys who's perfect? You know like John MacArthur has never sinned or Charles Spurgeon never did this or Calvin you know attack everyone on the planet and say everybody's a sinner we're not talking about blowing a reference in a sermon mispronouncing a

Greek word losing your temper getting a little bit out of hand at an elder meeting and going alright guys let's calm down not like you know

I really missed on that situation in counseling with people or you know something that you can say hey

I'm sorry I think I was insensitive when I said that oh thank you pastor you know thanks for being humble about it and people move on we've got to bear one another's burdens and be kind and peaceful within the church that's why there's so many one another's in the

New Testament nobody's perfect we've got to kind of bear up with one another but in no way shape or form does that have anything to do with wolves being in our pulpit that's not just common you know working it out as the

Christian family that is divisive it is destructive and so we wanted to explain that their teaching and their lifestyle match the biblical description for false teachers and heretics and using the h word is reserved for those type of individuals whose

God is their belly yeah so that it's a wonderful book and short for those of you who have trouble keeping up with 300 or 400 pages so I appreciate the work and the things that you are doing and thank you so much for your ministry and taking the time to talk with us on the program today yes thank you as we close out would you mind if we prayed for you

I would love that thank you Gabe and thank you Becky as well you're welcome dear God we thank you for rescuing

Costi and his wife Christine out of the heresy that the

Benny Hinn ministry was and is still known for espousing and it is only by your grace that they were exposed to the truth of God according to your word that the gospel penetrated this man's heart and he was convicted of his sin and realized who

I used to be was a liar but now he is a man who is grounded upon the truth who is raising his family on the truth and is also teaching his church family what the truth of God is why it matters how it saves and so I pray that you would bless his ministry bless the book that he and Tony would have written together and that it would continue to win people out of these deceptions these heresies that are attempting to draw people away from the flock or keep people from the flock of God it is something that presents itself as truth but it has the voice of the dragon and so I pray that that as good sheep following the good shepherd we would recognize the voice of Christ and we would follow you with our whole heart mind and strength and do this humbly not taking any credit upon ourselves but let those who boast boast in the

Lord and I'm so privileged and proud to be able to call Kosti a brother I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe

Romans 1 16 thank you for this man and we pray and ask that you continue to bless his ministry in Jesus name

Amen Amen Thank you guys so much Thank you Thank you Kosti Thank you

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Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you We're both in ministry We got 4 you got 4 10 and under I've got 3 3 and under Man you guys work fast

Got things to do man That's the fun of scheduling

So are you Are you like on the clock kind of like doing it during your lunch hour with church work and everything else

Having kids No. Oh, all right. It's interviewed. I couldn't resist.