Plagiarism, Homosexuality, Pastoral Integrity and the State of the SBC: An Interview With Jim Osman

Justin Peters

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Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today

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I want to thank you very much for joining me for this podcast So the big news in the evangelical world and more specifically in the

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SBC world for the last week or a little better Has been plagiarism the plagiarism scandal of Ed Litton the newly elected president of the

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SBC and I did a Video on this about a week or so ago and since then as I predicted

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Many many many more videos have come out documenting the just absolutely undeniable plagiarism and it is voluminous plagiarism by Ed Litton and you know,

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I one of the ironic things about this is that Ed Litton and I actually went to the same seminary

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Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary now we were there at different times I was there in the mid to late 90s early 2000s, but if I had he was there much earlier.

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I say much earlier probably about 10 or so years earlier, but had I done 1 % of the amount of plagiarism

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That Ed Litton has done and that's just of the plagiarism of which I am aware undoubtedly

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There's a ton out more out there that I have not seen and never will see but if I had if I had been caught

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Doing just 1 % of what I have seen I would have been kicked out of seminary rightfully, so Not only what

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I've been kicked out of seminary. I would have been kicked out of Mississippi State University a completely secular

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Institution that I that I intended as an undergraduate, you know my college years I would have been kicked out of a secular

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University for doing this much more much less a seminary and Here is

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Ed Litton he is the president of the entire Southern Baptist Convention it's just Surreal, and so I've asked

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Jim Osmond the pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho. I have a link to his church down in the description below So I asked him to come on and to offer us his thoughts

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He has been the pastor of Kootenai Community Church for 24 almost 25 years now, I believe and So we're gonna talk about this.

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We're gonna talk about plagiarism. We're gonna play excerpts of Ed Litton's Interview in which he he he offers something of an apology, but we're gonna talk about that.

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I've got Again excerpts that we'll play and I'll get Jim Osmond's reaction to this

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Also the issues that are just involved with this. What does that mean for? From an integrity standpoint.

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What does that mean from a pastoral standpoint? Sermon preparation all of these kinds of issues.

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We're also going to talk about homosexuality and the issues Related to that because they also tie into this plagiarism stuff.

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It's it's quite the tangled web that has been woven at the right

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Yeah woven I believe that has been woven So we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the just the rampant plagiarism in the

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SPC It is it is quite the problem all throughout the SPC. We'll talk about that and So I hope that this interview will be helpful for you.

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We're gonna cover an awful lot of ground some difficult Things will be said we're gonna talk about the state of the

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SPC in general and the dangerous slide the dangerous direction that it is

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Undeniably heading right now and we will acknowledge that there are some some good folks in the

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SPC and and some good Churches, but the SPC is heading in a very very

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Dangerous direction and is heading there quite Speedily, so, all right. Thank you very much.

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Dear ones. Here we go into the interview Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we're moving now to the interview section of this video and I wanted to interview

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This is Jim Osmond. He's the pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho Jim.

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Thank you for coming on the program Yeah, thanks for having me on. Yeah, good deal And Jim, I wanted to have you on because for a couple of different reasons one, we're friends

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I know you I've watched your life for a number of years a decade or so now.

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Yeah so I've I've been a member of your church, you've been my pastor before and until we moved and So so I know you and I trust you and I trust your impartial judgment and also you're not

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SPC, right? No, I'm not. Our church is non -denominational. We are not affiliated with any

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Okay. All right. So you've you've never been a part of the SPC and I really wanted never been a member of an

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SPC Okay, so you're not some guy that's got a personal axe to grind Against us.

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You're not you're not Trying to get Ed Litten out so the other guy can get in So that I could be the president, right?

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No, no, not at all. Okay All right. So so Jim you've seen a lot of the videos of the undeniable plagiarism

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Regarding JD Greer and the Ed Litten. I think JD Greer has some of his own issues, but primarily here

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Ed Litten plagiarizing JD Greer and so you've seen this

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One way I showed you the video of Ed Litten plagiarizing JD Greer's Yeah message or illustration of Driver's Ed, you know when

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I took driver's Ed I was thinking about this the other day because my daughters are about this age where they're getting into this and driver's Ed I had

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I don't I think they still do it But the car that I took driver's Ed in had the guy sitting next to me had this big old brake

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That's all he had Do you have this the big old brake coming out and it meant that he could stop that car anytime he wanted In fact, he did it like after we've been out about five minutes just to show me that he had it

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So I want to turn he just like slam that brake And I you know slam in there and what he was showing me was you think you're in control of this car and I'm letting

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You drive but I can stop this car anytime. I want to you don't need a list of suggestions from Pastor Ed You need to you need new life from Jesus Christ.

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I Took driver's Ed in high school. That was a trip. I'm gonna forget the guy who was teaching me

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I noticed he had a strange thing over just underneath the the glove box. There was this break and When I first pulled out of the parking lot, he stomped on it to show me who really boss was and and and and I'll never forget that When you come to Christ, you didn't come you basically turn over the brake

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You're like because I would describe probably some of our spiritual lives that way is that Jesus is speaking to you and you're like, yeah

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Yeah, let's do that. Let's go over here. That sounds awesome But everyone saw you're like nope you push that brake in and the car comes to a halt because you've never actually

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Surrendered it to him. You've kept that brake right in place to be surrendered to Jesus means you take the brake away Many of us see our relationship to Christ that way and I'm not talking about you're the student driver

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You're the guy with the brake And to come to Christ and to surrender to him means that you give him the steering wheel

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But you need to uninstall that brake, dude You need to stop slamming on it every time God starts moving in your life, but ultimately he had the veto power

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He had not surrendered the car to me Until you surrender your brake to the

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Holy Spirit of God Friend you're vetoing God. Who do you think you are? What what were your thoughts when you saw that?

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Well, the first thing of course, it's it's obvious plagiarism. It is possible It is conceivably possible that Ed Litton and JD Greer had the exact same driver's ed teacher.

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That's conceivably possible It is conceivably possible that that same teacher gave the same illustration to every class that he that he had that is possible it's also possible that It's conceivably possible that Ed Litton Remembers being in driver's ed and he heard

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JD Greer's illustration and then thought well, that's a good one. I remember that as well But then he went on to tell that exact illustration of that teacher doing the same thing it would be one thing if he had simply taken the illustration of a foot pedal on the on the passenger side of a driver's ed car and likened it as borrowed the illustration and then kind of Generalized it sometimes it's possible for us to do that in a sermon where we hear a good illustration

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Of happened in somebody else's life, but then we don't tell it as if it happened in our own life Instead we tell it as as a good illustration of a point

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That's something, you know If I'm taking an illustration from the life of David Livingston, for instance,

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I don't talk about going to the mission field in Africa and meeting never before reached tribes, but instead

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I would talk about somebody who went to the mission field in Africa, but Litton didn't do that Litton took the illustration and told it as if he had experienced that that is nothing less than a bald -faced lie and There's no way he could tell that Unless his conscience is seared with a clean conscience.

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There's no way he could tell that illustration Knowing that he's lying. He knew that it wasn't his illustration, but he told it as if that had happened to him and that is the that is the definition of duplicity and And and lying and bearing false witness.

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He is he is saying something happened that in fact did not happen Unless he's going to make the case that he and and Greer had the same driver's ed teacher

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Yeah, and I haven't done any background research, but I'm pretty sure they didn't grow up in the same hometown

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I don't even think they grew up in the same state So in the interest of full disclosure is it is a hypothetical possibility that they have the same teacher

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Hypothetically like it is Possibly possible that you're gonna be attacked by a polar bear before this interview.

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So it is good. It could be I mean the odds are probably similar Yeah Can you as a pastor,

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I mean, okay, so we're all liars, right? You're a liar I'm a liar. Let God be true in every man a liar

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So we're not saying that none of us has ever told a lie. Of course we have

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But as a as a pastor, you've been a pastor for about a quarter of a century now about 25 years 25 years almost

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Yeah Can you? Can you fathom? Can you can you fathom getting up before?

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Your people at Kootenai Community Church and Telling a story as your own that you knew

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Was not yours. Can you conceive of even doing that? No, no I can't simply because in today's day

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I mean other than the fact that it's a lie and just I cannot imagine Stepping into the pulpit and using a lie to try and illustrate truth.

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I can't even imagine doing that but It is so bald -faced as to do it in an age when literally every sermon is recorded and posted online and Transcribed by YouTube.

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You can google these things. The internet has an incredible memory I mean just even if I had no integrity at all, and I was tempted to do it, which

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I'm not ever I Would never do it for that very reason that you know, that's going to be found out

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You can't you can't possibly plagiarize something like that and not have it be brought to light Especially when you ascend to the highest position in the

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Southern Baptist Convention I mean the world is watching the Christian world is watching and they're gonna look be looking for stuff like that So no,

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I think it's it's it's lying It's nothing short of lying and I just can't even conceive how anybody would

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Get to the point of doing that. It shows just a complete lack of integrity. Yeah. Yeah Well in in doing some research for this

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I've come across in fact a friend of mine bud alheim Sent me this link. So apparently some of the material for the sermons that J .D.

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Greer writes and Ed Litton writes comes from a website or an organization called the docent

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Research group. I've never even heard of them until the last 18 hours or so So I looked them up and just read this to you off of the website says we are a knowledgeable team of researchers

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Researchers all seminary trained our researchers are either earning MDivs or PhDs or they've already earned them

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We are passionate about God's Word and the church's theology and we'd love the opportunity Advance God's kingdom by serving the preachers of the word.

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So this is a this is a research group that apparently pastors can can hire employ their services

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I even looked up the prices, but They'll do research for you. Tell them, you know, I need research on this.

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I need research on that I need I need you to give me a sermon ideas for this text What does this mean do research in the in the languages?

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Apparently they can do all of that and I found this paragraph interesting.

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They said Once we have learned from you how to best serve you

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We recruit a specific dedicated research team that is matched to your field to your theological

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Commitments in your style You will have a dedicated team captain who will keep in contact with you and lead the research team to deliver exactly

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What you request so we will match the content to your

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Theological commitments. Yeah, take it away What is that is that is nothing less than Madison Avenue advertising

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PR firm Brought into the church what they're saying is we have no principles or theological convictions

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But what are yours if you're a cessationist will give you a cessationist message for 1st Corinthians 13 If you're a continuationist will give you a continuationist message from 1st

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Corinthians 13 If you're a mill post mill mid trip post trip pre trip, whatever your theological stripe, whatever your confession, whatever your

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Slant whatever your theological peccadillo is, whatever they are We will we will take the text of Scripture and the research and we will customize it to fit

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Whatever your perceived audiences that would be no different than a pastor going to them and saying look

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I want to I want to reach a certain demographic of people and I need to know what my brand should be

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I need to know how I should be Packaging and marketing myself to the community or to the world at large in order to sort of hit my niche market

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It's the same thing that they're doing with sermons What's your niche theological market and we will take the text of Scripture as well as all of the research and we'll customize it to fit that That is somebody here's the danger of that for a pastor a pastor like say

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I were to go to them and say All right. I'm a cessationist church. We're Baptistic credo Baptist.

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So we don't pedo Baptist We're reformed in our theology hold to the reform doctrines of the faith that were pre -millennial and cessationist and Believe in the

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I give my doctrinal state my entire doctrinal state and then I say, okay I want I want sermons in a sermon series on the book of Ephesians that match this

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Theological conviction so that when I preach these or read these that all the PowerPoints and everything is all

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Pre -packaged according to that theology that theological parameters Right, then

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I get up and I deliver that here's what's not happening Here's what's not happening is Me sitting down at my desk and taking the passage of Scripture and allowing the passage of Scripture to shape my theology so that when

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I stand in the pulpit My theology is the outflow of the exposition and exegesis of Scripture that I've done

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When I went through the book of Ephesians in my own preaching schedule I there was some areas of my theology that had to be tightened up some doctrines that I had changed that I had long believed

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Well, if you use something like the docent group, all you're doing is telling them Here's my theology mold the

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Scripture to fit it and the opposite should be taking place what should be taking place is I sit down in front of Scripture and it becomes the grinding wheel that grinds away at me and the rough edges of my theology

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So that Scripture hones my theology not my preconceived theology honing the text of Scripture And that should be the goal of every

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Bible expositor and exegete is to sit down and yes We acknowledge that we have presuppositions when we approach the text

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But then in reading through that text in the studying the text We want to be open to the fact that I may be holding to the wrong presuppositions

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I may have theological convictions that I ought not to have and Scripture is the authority

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So Scripture must inform that and shape me So the pastors who use the docent group are saying

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I'm going to allow my theology to shape my understanding of Scripture and my Presentation of Scripture rather than I'm going to spend the time and the effort in the

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Word of God So that Scripture shapes my theology and develops me rather than my my theology developing a sermon my working in the sermon

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And the text should be developing my theology Changing it if need be and and people who would use something like the docent group are

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Missing out on the whole role of studying and expositing Scripture in the life and ministry of a pastor right in in the endorsements this docent research group is endorsed by Mark Driscoll and That's high praise

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Yeah, Mark Driscoll Craig Groeschel who is the lead pastor of Life Church TV in Edmond, Oklahoma, who is

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You know kind of a Joel Osteen ish Maybe a little bit more meat than Joel Osteen, but but still very well

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That's easy, but no that's not saying much. That's a low bar I mean right to say you got more meat than Joel Osteen means that you basically took the dry bone and you put a ligament

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Down the side of it. That's about it. Yeah, that's pretty good illustration actually and and I've been to that church once before actually

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I Kathy and I both have sat in a service and That's that's pretty good pretty good way to describe it.

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So So Jim Ed Litton went on earlier today as of this recording. This is July the 2nd evening of July the 2nd 2021 and He did an interview and he was asked about this

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Scandal, I mean, I think that that's a fair way to describe it it is a scandal and So I've got some audio clips from this interview and I just want to play these as he's asked about the plagiarism and His approach to sermon writing.

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So I'm just gonna play this and Once the audio finishes get you to respond

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Okay, had JD's permission, but encouraging the other thing we did is I as we were trying to outline the

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Book of Romans Which is a challenge We finally looked at it and looked at what they'd covered it felt like it was sufficient and we also received permission to use the passages from week to week and so that makes it look even more similar, but What I'm stating is that that we did our we did our

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Greek work We did our commentary work and and then usually I'll have someone

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I listen to and I exercise when I'm doing something Traveling to help reinforce and give me thoughts and creative ideas

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And there's a lot of reasons we do this In part I do it to stay fresh listen to new voices.

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Sometimes I listen to older voices But but to help me communicate to my people

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The essence of what the Word of God is saying Yeah So I guess what you're kind of saying in essence is that the servants from JD would just like another commentary

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For you and in the preparation that kind of thing a lot of them I didn't really even listen and I would go straight to his written notes that he provides

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And so yes, very much like a commentary in that sense And and you know what, you know as well when you listen to RKQs Or when you read

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RKQs commentaries and you listen to a sermon like on Gospel Coalition You'll find that that his commentaries are going right out of that sermon work.

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Yeah, which is understandable. Yeah, and likewise I mean, there's a whole commentary series that's exegetical sermon series.

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Danny Akin, David Platt, Tony Morita are the general editors at so We've got the RKQs Hebrews one sitting right here in front of me on my desk, too.

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So and he's awesome So Jim aside from this being an obviously Softball interview.

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I mean this reminded me of like MSNBC Interviewing Joe Biden. This is such a softball such a friendly.

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Yeah, I'm gonna try to help you in this Yeah, what kind of ice cream did you have today, Mr. President? Right, exactly.

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Exactly. And speaking of your son, what kind of ice cream does your son like? Yeah, right, right so aside from those issues

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What do you think of his explanation of why he Now he wouldn't call it plagiarizing, but that's obviously what he did.

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But What were your impressions of that So his argument is that he's using

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JD Greer sermons in the same way that I might use John MacArthur's Commentaries we treated him as a commentary

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He said at one point in that interview that in a one point that clip that you played that we we took the written notes of the sermons basically and used them like we much like we did a commentary and then of course the the interviewer just likens that to Danny Akin's exegetical series in Various Bible books or is trying to compare that to how you are you and I might

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Consult any of the number of commentaries that are on the shelf behind you but here's the difference a sermon is not a commentary a sermon is somebody else's crafting of the voice of God and the message that they're getting out of the text now whether JD Greer is able to do that faithfully or profoundly at all

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We'll set that issue aside But a sermon is my a sermon is the product of my work in the text and then

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I put together the message and I Use my own my own way of expressing the truth my own way of communicating the truth customized by my personality through my experience through my personality through Jim Osman so that that is what comes out to the people in the pew when

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I get up and I preach and I Explain that using my own words. That's a sermon He didn't consult

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JD Greer's sermons like they were commentaries because He took and he lifted

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Massive portions of it right out of there and preached the sermon So that would be like me standing up and just reading

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MacArthur's commentary on The book of Hebrews, which I'm preaching through now just getting up and opening up his commentary and reading it through illustrations

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Cross references and everything and then sitting down that's not consulting a commentary That's reading a commentary and calling it a sermon

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So even if even his illustration that he uses the way he tries to get around it and it doesn't fly at all

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He he doesn't use that Sermon like you and I or like anybody would be taught to use a commentary

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In a Southern Baptist seminary and and I would say this is this what the professors that the

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Southern Baptist seminaries are teaching They're preaching students that this is how you consult commentaries Now when

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I preach through the book of Ephesians, and I've taught through passage Romans. I'll consult Spurgeon sermons on that.

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In fact every passage that I preach. I usually will read what sermons Spurgeon has preached on that Mostly because sometimes

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Spurgeon is very quotable and he'll oftentimes use a good illustration. But when I give that illustration, I Don't borrow it or use it without referencing

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Spurgeon and I don't borrow his language without saying as Spurgeon said I'll quote Spurgeon Or I will

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I will consult Martin Lloyd -Jones as commentaries or his written sermons as published sermons on a passage

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But I do those I do those not so that I can find the wording or so that I can lift large

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Sections of the outline out of that I use that because I want to see how other men have Communicated the truth of the passages they saw that in as a result of their own study

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That's not what we do with with commentary. So that that excuse just doesn't fly I think it was probably enough to appease most

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Southern Baptist who would be listening to that podcast that oh, yeah, that makes sense He was just using it like a commentary.

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I've heard my pastor use Commentaries in that way and quote commentaries. Well, he didn't he wasn't quoting

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JD Greer he he was lifting entire illustrations like the brake pedal on the driver's side or the passenger side of the

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Driver's ed car. He was lifting entire illustrations entire Exegesis of the scripture or eisegesis of the scripture and entire phrases and passages out of Greer sermons and all he was doing was

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Modifying them slightly but not even enough that you can't tell exactly where they came from with a little bit of effort.

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Yeah, right Okay, so that's that's actually a pretty good segue into our next clip here this also from the same interview

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We'll get your reflections on this and in your answer you mentioned we a lot I know you talked about in the statement you employ a sermon team

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Approach to help you collaboratively create these sermons. So can you talk to us? What does that look like at Redemption Church?

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Well, let me tell you why we started doing it and it's one of the best things I've been a part of a long time

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We have a lot of young men on staff We have young people that feel a call a young man that feel a call of the

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Lord and laymen in our church To at least on occasion to preach the gospel and so our purpose was to raise up a new generation of gospel communicators and gospel preachers and or illustrations and then we finish the rest of the week building that out for whoever the preachers are going to be and Again, I lead that process because I am discipling young preachers and Of course, you know from all the people have assumed about this

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That was people would say don't disciple anymore because you're messed up but the reality is It is it's a very effective way and for me

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It's been a powerful tool because I'm listening to other voices. Well, it looks like we have an audio issue here in the podcast

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Dr. Linton's air pods just died folks We're gonna switch him over to some wired headphones.

26:15

There you go. Now you got it Now you were talking about how this was a discipleship issue that the team approach allows you to disciple those on the team

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The real motivation behind this was discipleship It's it's helping raise up a new generation of pastors and leaders who can communicate the gospel

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Okay, so Jim Two questions a or one. What do you believe?

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What do you think about the team approach? To writing sermons. He has an eight team member that helps him

26:45

Do the research compose and and write his sermons a what do you think about that?

26:50

is that something you do and then the second question is I Was struck by how he said this is a mentorship a discipleship effort

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This is one of the ways that he disciples young Preachers, so yeah, so let me just paraphrase what he just said.

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What he just said is that We we use we disciple young preachers to not do their own

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Work in the text But to rely upon so heavily upon the work of other people in doing it that they're not actually crafting a sermon at all

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Themselves, they're a team approach to it. And then we teach them to preach other people's sermons.

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That's his method of discipleship He's basically just saying look we're just raising up a generation of young leaders in our church that will

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Plagiarize and lift material and not do any of the heavy lifting of exegesis in the same way that I don't

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So, I mean a student when he's fully trained will be just like his teacher and he's just raising up people who'd be just like him

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And again, I would ask the leadership of the Southern Baptist denomination Is this what you're training your people in your seminaries to do and there might be people say oh, no

27:56

No, our seminaries aren't doing that. Okay. Well look I got I Got a challenge that because the president of your denomination is doing it

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He's been doing it for years and now he's leading your denomination. So don't tell me that your seminaries aren't going to be following suit

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So what do what do I think of the team approach to minute to doing that that is not how

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I've had the opportunity to disciple a couple of guys in in leadership or in in teaching and preaching and I'll Explain to you my methodology when

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I'm done with this, but this is not how you go about doing that this is the purpose of a pastor in taking a passage of scripture is not to put it out there and let a team of People hash it over and come up with great ideas and cobble that all together and use

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JD Greer sermons and do it and rely On that so heavily that you are quoting from him verbatim for large passages the message and then go out and preach that the purpose of a pastor studying a passage is do you get down alone with yourself and your

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God and the passage scripture and in prayer you are doing the work of looking at the

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Greek and the grammar and you do the outlining and you You do the meditating you spend the hour sitting there staring at that page thinking through the outline thinking through the implications thinking through the context the argument that the author is making from the first of the book to the last of the book making sure that you can

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Express the meaning of that passage in one sentence that it's clear in your mind and that you yourself are bringing your life in Conformity this truth and reminding yourself of the truth of this passage

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So that you take this and then you put it into your own words and You have spent time with God in his word because God meets with us in his word so the word is the arena in which

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God meets with us and we step into that and We wrestle through the passage and we think through the passage and we allow it to saturate our hearts and our minds

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Then what a pastor does is he steps into the pulpit? With all of his own work and labor in that he steps into the pulpit and invites the gathered assembly of the people of God To meet with that same

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God in that same word and that pastor leads them through his own discovery in the text showing them how

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What God is saying in the passage is true and how it applies and he is he is taking them on a guided tour as it

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Were through that passage of Scripture so that he is allowing them to see in 45 minutes of his preaching what it took him 45 hours in a study to come up with or to to labor through and In doing that with the word he's inviting in all of those people to meet with God in the word and hear the voice of God in the text of Scripture as The pastor shows how he along with the congregation sits under the

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Word of God Under the authority of Christ and how we all together meet with God there in that passage scriptures that is the that is the point of preaching and When the

30:52

Word of God is rightly preached the voice of God is truly heard because in his word he meets with his people now if you take that all of that effort and all of that energy that should be 40 30 40 hours a week of study and Labor and writing and thinking and reviewing and preparing and praying

31:08

Yeah, and all of that and you farm that out to a group of people and then you take back the fruit of their collective share a

31:15

Bible study Which is more likely what I call an SYI Bible study share your ignorance a bunch of people who are being discipled in doing that They're all getting together

31:23

They're pooling all of their resources and handing it back to you and you get up and preach What they came up with then you are not a guided tour guide for the people of God When they meet with God in the text instead you're just up there regurgitating a well -packaged

31:38

PR product Yeah, so no, that's what I think of that discipleship approach now

31:43

I'm gonna get to the second question here in a second You can see why it takes me so long to go through a book in the Bible because I take forever to explain this but okay,

31:50

I'll get to the second question in a second, but To talk about how I would mentor men.

31:55

This is I would take a totally different approach So I have a man in the congregation is a little bit older than I am news, you know

32:01

He's been one to do some teaching. He's taught until Sunday school class. So And I've done this with other men as well in the congregation

32:10

Usually I will hand them a teaching topic and I'll say okay you you take the passage of Scripture you do your study and you

32:15

Come back to me with an outline and then they will come back with an outline and I will look at the outline and then We'll kind of discuss.

32:21

Okay. How did you come to this conclusion? Can you state this more succinctly? How would you describe this? Here's the theological issues that are raised by the text.

32:28

How would you address this? Have you thought about what a possible objector might say and I give them that feedback They will go back and then they take that and prepare a lesson

32:36

Then when they preach the lesson, then we will meet after the lesson. I'll say okay. Here's what you did It was good.

32:42

And here are the things I think you can work on here the ways that you can improve Here are the questions that this raised for me. So when you grab the next passage

32:48

Scripture You have some constructive criticism some constructive feedback that should help nourish them

32:54

That's how you you do that You allow them to do the work instead of discipling young men to do the same thing you do which is farm out your

33:02

Exegesis and your time with God to somebody else. Yeah, right. What was the second question again?

33:07

I forgot The first one is do I do that? Yeah, do you do that? And How do you think that Is that a good way to disciple and mentor young men going into the into the pulpit?

33:22

Yeah, I just answered that one. No, that's not it. That's not a good way at all Yeah, that's not how I would do it. And I don't think that that's profitable at all for for young men

33:31

No, and and you said, you know, a student is not above his master above his teacher Those those young men that he's using in this team there that's how they're gonna grow up and and That's how they're gonna prepare sermons.

33:46

They're gonna be woefully ill -prepared Yeah to preach to preach the text

33:52

Yeah, and so they're doing themselves a disservice. They're doing the people to whom they are preaching a disservice

33:59

And you've heard me say this before when I listen to a pastor when I listen to a preacher I want to know That that man has been in the text that he has studied to show himself approved that the text has impacted him

34:10

That it saturates his heart and his mind he's been challenged by the text and wrestled with it and um

34:18

And and what jd grier? I'm, excuse me what ed litton has Has described there is the polar opposite of that.

34:25

No, he's not familiar with the text He's familiar with what his team of people has come up with he hasn't spent the time with the text

34:31

That's by his own admission. In fact from that docent group Page that you sent me with the recommendations from jd grier and mark driscoll and others

34:39

That's what they say. This says this saves me hours a week of of my study time In fact, let me just read you jd grier's endorsement of the docent research group

34:49

He says this now this is on the wayback machine This has been taken off their website, but it's you can still find it on the wayback machine but jd grier says

34:58

Docent has been a humongous Help to me saving me literally hours each week in improving the quality of my preaching dramatically

35:06

These guys are the real deal. I give them assignments and questions on everything from interpretation

35:13

To cultural analysis to illustration and they get me through thorough answers always on time

35:19

They are outstanding scholars and really get my job as a communicator.

35:24

I often have people remark to me How many hours did you spend on that sermon? Where did you get time to do all that research?

35:32

Ha Thanks guys for making me look so good Jd grier pastor of summit church, raleigh, north carolina and the previous president of the southern baptist convention

35:44

Well I don't I don't want to save hours a week of study time I give up other things during the week so that I can study on When I when

35:52

I look at my week my hours in my week It's not study time that i'm trying to cut out I spend all

35:58

I do all that I can do to to preserve that and to guard the study time And the effort the research time that goes into preparing a sermon and I cut out all the superfluous other stuff that tries to Crowd in on that and take and and these guys are talking about taking that out

36:13

Take it cutting that out farming that out to somebody else that they can get to the real important things That just that is a gross

36:20

Admission of their ineptitude and their their woefully unbiblical priorities, right?

36:26

In fact just last night you and I were on apologetics live with indra aproport betta alheim and we were discussing some of this um

36:35

Remember the clip that we listened to where ed litton said in his sermon series and romans is from the romans chapter one

36:50

You know that the bible never gives the classification of heterosexual or homosexual

36:56

You may find a translation that may use the word homosexual, but it's only because it's in the modern vernacular

37:03

I've uh oftentimes and i'm confessing a mistake in thinking a mistake in theology

37:10

I've often interpreted this passage To say homosexuality is the sin. He's talking about and everything

37:16

He mentions afterwards is a spiraling down because of that sin Now it is true that once we enter into certain sins.

37:22

We do spiral down. We don't evolve we devolve spiritual But I now believe that is not what paul is saying here

37:31

He in the bible sexual sin Is whispered compared to the shout god makes about greed and judgmentalism

37:41

Take it away The bible does have a word for that the greek words that are talked about men bedding men

37:48

And and sexual intercourse between men. Yeah, we call it homosexuality But that is our english word to translate or to describe the activity that is being described there

37:58

So yeah, you're not going to go back and find a greek word that has been Transliterated like baptizo has been transliterated into baptize.

38:06

You're not going to go back and find a greek word for Homosexuality that it sounds a lot like homosexual today

38:12

That's just been transliterated into it The bible does have a word for it The bible did have a description for it and the bible does have condemnation for it

38:20

And if he had simply spent all the time in the greek and and the languages and the syntax and everything That he claims that he and his

38:27

Leadership team are spending in that he would have known that Exactly. I know I thought that was a very telling thing first corinthians 6 verse 9 uses those two terms malachoi and arsenic

38:40

Literally means as you said men bedding with men or yeah, and so like when

38:46

I heard him say that how How can you say that? I mean it

38:52

He said in this interview that he spends he spends time in the languages And uh,

38:58

I mean, that's that's a basic Any exegetical commentary? I mean, I think even the one mentioned in the interview danny

39:05

Aiken's exegetical commentary would probably do a better job of that than than what ed litton did in that sermon

39:11

But see I think this is all part of a of a larger issue within the southern baptist Denomination and that is that you have a number of people in leadership in the denomination

39:20

Who are going soft on these social and cultural issues? Because they see that the tide is turning against christians in the world.

39:29

They see that the That persecution is going to come and it's going to be over this issue.

39:34

Most likely And um, they're going soft on it now to to use a word that could be a pun.

39:40

They're going soft on the homosexual issue Yeah, absolutely Yes, they are and and there are other people in this in the denomination who are not soft on that issue

39:48

Like al moeller and mark dever and matt chandler and some of these guys would probably still affirm that it is sin um, and they're they're

39:58

I would maybe pull matt chandler out of that but Al moeller would say that homosexuality is a sin and he mentions it on his briefing

40:04

But his presence in the southern baptist denomination has done nothing to stem the tide of people in leadership positions all over the denomination at seminaries in seminaries in in big churches all over the denomination that are are changing the

40:19

That are changing the course of the southern baptist convention and denomination and not for the better Yeah, yeah

40:25

And as as we were talking about last night Uh, these are the conservatives theoretically

40:32

I mean the spc is theoretically being led by the conservatives that Won the battles back in the 80s, you know trying to save the convention from the liberals and theoretically they

40:43

They carried the day. And so these are supposed to be those people And this is what we're seeing.

40:49

We're seeing a kowtowing to the culture. We're seeing a softening of biblical language uh

40:55

We're almost an apologetic in fact I don't know if you've watched that sermon from romans one but but jd greer even began his sermon in a very apologetic almost like Yeah, we kind of got to deal with this this is what the bible says and it's they don't like it apologizing for it basically um,

41:14

I mean Kind of remind you never get up and apologize for god's truth. No No, absolutely not

41:20

All right, jim. I'm gonna play one last audio clip from this interview that ed linton did and I just want to say

41:26

I apologize to anybody who has been offended and rightly so and hurt and Some of the things have been represented in such a way but i'm not denying that That we borrowed these things and and I want to say this too.

41:41

I i'm asked by good people and goodwill people Why didn't you just credit jd

41:48

I want you to hear my heart. This is not an excuse or justification I am sorry.

41:53

I did not I had a preaching professor in seminary that Um We would preach in front of him.

42:00

He would evaluate us and he was one of the kindest people i've ever met For evaluating but a student got up probably the smartest guy in the class

42:09

And every citation from icc linsky from any critical commentary.

42:14

He he made the Any commentary he cited all of them and even his illustrations I got this from that book in a thousand illustrations or whatever when he got finished the professor very kindly said that was a good

42:26

Sermon, but he said i'm gonna just tell you something when a diamond miner goes looking for diamonds He doesn't hold up the pick in the show

42:33

He holds up the diamond Now, please hear my heart. Jonathan I I am not excusing

42:42

Myself or explaining i'm just explaining my heart I love my people and I want them to see jesus.

42:49

He is the diamond Okay, go ahead Uh, let me let me let me use this illustration about the diamond when you go

42:58

Finding diamonds you don't hold up the pick and the shovel uh, no, but imagine that you

43:04

Imagine the difference between me finding a diamond that somebody else discovered and did a whole lot of work discovering

43:10

And I pick up that diamond and I show it to you and you say oh, yeah, that's impressive But then imagine that I took 40 hours out of my work week to dive down into the dirt and I got muddy and dirty

43:21

And I bent all my fingernails back clawing for this diamond and I gave up my time and and i'm sweaty and exhausted

43:28

After 40 hours of laboring to find this diamond and then I come and I present the diamond to you Which one is more impressive?

43:35

So he what all he's doing is standing before his people saying, um, hey all that the work that the other guys did

43:40

Let me show you this. This is jesus. He's the diamond people aren't impressed by that But I want to see a guy stand before me and knowing that he's handing to me a diamond some

43:49

Some gem that he has picked up from scripture and he has done the work And he has been the man who has been changed by finding that diamond

43:56

Ed litton is not changed by taking other people's work and preaching it to his people as if as if he's just displaying jesus

44:02

No, you're not jesus is displayed in us Like we display a diamond jesus is displayed in us when we do the work of going into scripture and getting to know him

44:12

So that then we can stand before god's people and and let them see jesus But then they look at us and say this that what he is saying about jesus cost him

44:22

Personally the time and the effort and the expense of making that truth known to us

44:28

That is where his illustration lacks. And so yeah, we're all supposed to say. Oh, jesus is the diamond.

44:33

Yeah, that's great You just found the diamond and you didn't give credit for it um his his apology was i'm apologized that I apologized that people were hurt by it, which is

44:42

I mean that is If that's not straight out of bill clinton's playbook, I never heard an apology that is no

44:48

I'm, apologized that people were hurt by it. I would have more Allow me to rant rant for just a second.

44:55

I would have more respect for ed litton if he just came out and said What is there to apologize for Look, we're southern baptist.

45:04

We've been doing this for 20 years. This is a cottage industry in our denomination Why why do you expect me to apologize?

45:10

There's no I don't see this as wrong Jd. Greer doesn't see it as wrong. There's none of our intellectual luminaries in the southern baptist denomination that see it as wrong

45:18

We've had conservatives and liberals ruling this denomination for the last 30 years and rick warren has been getting away with it

45:25

Ed young's been getting away with it uh Who's the other uh, stephen furtick has been getting away with it?

45:31

Uh, merrick has been getting away with it All these guys have been getting away with it for 30 years and making money on it We've not only been doing it we've been encouraging everybody to do it and this is the worst kept secret in the entire denomination

45:41

So no, i'm not going to apologize for it because we all do it So i'm not going to get thrown under the bus just to make a bunch of you feel better about yourselves

45:48

Save all of your pearl clutching and your hand wringing and your faux outrage for somebody else that cares

45:53

Because I didn't do anything wrong. I just doing what everybody else has been doing This is what we've been training our people to do for 30 years and this is the fruit of it

46:00

So own it and like it. This is sbc. You love it. Like it lump it or get out of here You know, that's that's what he should have said

46:07

I'd have more respect for that than the mealy mouth the apologizing and dancing around the issue and and trying to look, uh,

46:14

Lamentful and all of the nasal gate navel gazing that's going on over the whole issue Just come out and own it.

46:20

You've been doing it proudly for years. Come out and own it and and say this is what we expect of our pastors,

46:27

I mean if he's If he is honestly committed to this Discipleship methodology where eight people craft a sermon he gets up and preaches other people's material

46:36

Which he just defended in that interview then why is he apologizing for doing it if people are hurt by it? he should just come out and say i'm sorry that you're hurt by it, but I we didn't do anything wrong and Um, it's all good.

46:46

So the the problem it's a you problem if you're hurt. That's a you problem. Not a me problem I would have had more respect for him.

46:52

And if he'd done that then all of this all of the faux outrage that he's and and faux remorse that he is

47:00

Postured over the whole thing all the dancing around the issue is just nothing but just words intended to Ameliorate people's anger when they find out when the gig is up Yeah Right, and you know, there there are people

47:12

Admittedly within the southern baptist denomination who don't do this. I would never suggest for instance that gabe hughes, uh, tom askell tom buck

47:21

Uh, josh bice I would never I would be horrified if I found out that any of those dear brothers were involved in doing anything like this

47:28

Because I don't think that's that's not the kind of that's not the kind of cloth that those men are cut from they're

47:33

Totally different animal. They're they're an anomaly in the southern baptist convention And there are others who have probably gone on record and said

47:41

Uh things about not doing this before like I wouldn't be surprised if mark dever for instance could say

47:48

Hey, we've never embraced this because we tell our people that you need to expose scripture And that's one of the nine marks of a healthy church and we have multiple books on this and resources on Exposition and exegesis etc.

47:59

So we stand against this we're opposed to that. Well, i'm sure you are mark ever I'm sure you are al moeller and others but have you taken your southern baptist political capital?

48:08

And spent even a dime of it calling out some of these frauds These men who are actually doing it in your denomination and having widespread influence doing it and training other people to do it

48:19

Have you called them out by name has al moeller ever named ed litton? and and stephen furdick and all of those other

48:26

Rick warren on his podcast for doing this and called these men to repentance or even said to them at any time

48:32

Has any of these luminaries within the southern baptist denomination said to any of these men? Look, you either get in the game and stop playing church and stop doing this or you're out of the denomination

48:42

And I will spend my entire life opposing you and trying to get your church eliminated from the southern baptist denomination

48:49

Rick warren just rick warren just ordained women to the ministry of his church, right? Yeah, I mean what southern baptist who has two brain cells to rub together couldn't see that coming for the last 10 years

48:59

You knew it was going to happen and yet they have Have we yet heard a peep from some of these men calling that out calling them out and saying they need to be removed

49:07

From the the car the denomination i've heard nothing, right? No, no, that's my that's my rant.

49:14

That's my two -cent rant. That's your rant and and um, i'll throw a little I guess a little proverbial gasoline on that fire because not only is rick warren in Ordained women now as as ministers or preachers

49:29

Uh just a day or two ago I don't even know if you know this because I don't think we've talked about it But just a day or two ago andy stanley's church north point church baptized an openly homosexual man

49:43

Baptized him And and his testimony is is up for everyone to see Hi, i'm courtland russell.

49:51

I didn't grow up going to church or really having a relationship with christ I grew up in a loving home

49:57

But many of the people who were closest to me growing up had experienced rejection from the christian communities that they had engaged in despite these experiences

50:07

I always found myself in some way curious about faith and Surrounded by christian people who poured love into me

50:15

It wasn't until I moved to atlanta and met one of my now best friends gregory cook that I Was connected with a community of lgbtq christians

50:24

He invited me for almost a year before I would say yes It just so happened to be that we were starting an eight -week series called renovate

50:33

It was through this community that I was able to connect with Wonderfully supportive people like debbie causey and sandy harman -waldrop

50:41

Who shared with me the transformative power that christ had had in their lives I saw shining examples of healthy lgbtq christ -centered relationships and Really started to have that personal relationship with jesus for the first time in my life

50:58

I remember driving to starting point one week And listening to andy's messages right before starting point groups as a way of preparing for that session

51:09

And I just started crying I just could feel for the first time in my life this love and this connection in a way that I hadn't felt before I'm excited to be baptized and publicly share that.

51:22

I love jesus. He is my lord and savior In portland

51:34

It has been so incredibly faith -building to watch god draw you to him the last two years

51:42

From skeptic to follower of christ and I have been so excited for this day

51:48

So based on your profession of faith in jesus, it is my honor to baptize you in the name of the father son and holy spirit

52:05

As I watched that I felt a strange combination of emotions one utter disgust

52:13

That the leaders of buckhead church Which is one of the eight satellite campuses of north point church pastored by andy stanley that that they would not know better than to back

52:27

Let me correct myself. They do know better Andy stanley does know what the bible says about Homosexuality he is fully aware of it.

52:39

He just chooses To ignore it. I found myself in disgust of the leaders of north point church

52:49

Starting with andy stanley buckhead church, whatever their pastors are Whatever their names are but they do know better.

52:56

They absolutely do know better. So I discussed in them But honestly heartbroken for that young man kirtland and um

53:09

Heart heartbreak for him that nobody there loved him enough To tell him the truth.

53:15

Nobody there loved him enough To sit down with him and read to him first corinthians chapter six

53:21

Which states very clearly among other texts? That if you die in homosexual sin, and he is in open open homosexual sin

53:34

That he will not inherit the kingdom of god that means he will spend an eternity In hell if he dies in the condition

53:43

That he is in now apparently. Well, this video is two years old two years old um

53:50

Heartbroken for him that nobody loved him enough to tell him the heartbroken for him that nobody loved him enough To go on to verse 11 in first corinthians chapter six

54:00

And say kirtland if you truly repent Of your sin and trust christ

54:06

He will save you and you can join the ranks Of verse 11 when paul says but such were some of you you were those things

54:16

But you don't have to be you were those things you You were a liar. You were a feminine.

54:23

You were a homosexual. You were a reviler covetous Idolaters all those things that paul lives in verse 9 you were those things but But you can be a new creature in christ kirtland if you truly repent of sin and trust him

54:38

And kirtland if by chance some chance you are watching this video The people at north point didn't love you enough to tell you that But I will

54:49

I love you enough to tell you that that there is freedom in christ I love you enough to tell you that if you die in the condition that you are in now

54:58

You will not inherit the kingdom of god. You are not a christian because the the gospel transforms people

55:07

It transforms them And you can have freedom in christ if you repent of sin and trust him

55:15

Openly homosexual southern baptist church. Yeah, so So in he's obviously part of the southern baptist denomination.

55:23

Yes Okay, so i'm sure al moeller will come out if he knows about this and say something on the briefing

55:29

If al moeller were president, he's president of seminary. He has tremendous He's he is the best known southern baptist in the country bar none.

55:37

There's no close second He's the best known of the conservative southern baptist in the country Okay, how much political capital is he willing to spend to get andy stanley's church kicked out of and barred out of the southern baptist convention?

55:50

And dishonorably discharged not that you know, hey, there's been a parting of ways. We're not comfortable with that You should probably go your way.

55:56

We'll go our way But no if the southern baptist leadership and even some of the what we call conservative

56:01

We hope they're conservative had any backbone or or fortitude at all They would not only be calling this out but they would be calling for the immediate dishonorable discharge of rick warren's church and andy stanley's church and stephen furtick and ed young from the southern baptist denomination and they would be

56:19

Kicking those guys out with Excoriating rebukes and reproofs

56:26

And they don't so yeah, they'll talk about it. They'll talk about that issue. They'll mention it and yeah I'm in cultural i'm a cultural warrior and all that but they won't spend any political capital trying to make a difference in it

56:36

In which case they're doing nothing but greasing the skids helping grease the skids of the slide of the entire denomination into apostasy

56:43

Yeah And and that's where it's that's where it's headed undeniably Um, we've seen this movie before, you know, yeah when

56:52

Error error start unchecked error always begets more error Right, and they they haven't just started down the slippery slope.

57:00

They're they're well on their way. I mean they're They're picking up speed and well on their way.

57:05

They're headed right to where Right where the united methodist church is now. That's that's where they're headed

57:12

Yeah Yeah, yeah and And I know that the response amongst many southern baptists will be well you know, it's not like any one or two of us could have that kind of a of an impact or Change the direction of the denomination or have any effect on charles stanley at nirp andy stanley's church well, yeah, if if you had uh al moeller and mark dever and and Tom buck and tom askew and all of the all all of the leaders of the seminaries every southern baptist seminary

57:45

And the president of the seminary you could check the apostasy of rick warren and andy stanley but it just seems as if um

57:54

I know that not it's not true of all of them, but some of these men don't care about that I say that about al moeller knowing this is going to be public

58:00

But I just don't see that he he cares to spend any of his political capital changing any of that um guys like at tom aspel and and tom buck,

58:08

I think are exercised over this At a at a fundamental level because it grieves them as much as it should grieve any god -honoring christian

58:16

But the fact that we have leaders in the southern baptist denomination that haven't already Discharged some of these churches from the southern baptist convention shows how absolutely

58:27

Powerless the conservative leadership within the denomination actually is And I know that the argument for some of those guys staying in the denomination is so that they could change it and get there and and win the victory and and and get the get the presidency, but Once you get it, what are you going to do?

58:45

Yeah, how what are you going to change? How are you going to change it? You're going to steer that ship back It's not just a matter of getting the presidency and okay, we're not going to drift left anymore

58:53

No, you've got to come back and you've got to right the ship You've got to make a right hand turn and take the denomination back a long way back to where it has come from Yeah, that's right a long way

59:05

And um, as you said, that's just not going to happen. That's not going to happen. No, it's it's not I I think at this point

59:12

Honestly, and and I say this as one who was born and reared in the southern baptist denomination.

59:17

I got two Theological degrees from uh, southwestern baptist theological seminary southern baptist seminary

59:23

So, uh, i've i've been there You know i've been there done that got the t -shirt as they say

59:29

I was a southern baptist for the first 37 or so years of my life, but um

59:36

I have seen too much now Uh, and especially even in the just in the last month since they since they had their convention and now with this um not only is the

59:50

Sbc a sinking ship. I think at this point you have to say That the sbc is is not heading for god's judgment.

59:58

I think it's already under The judgment of god. I I think god is sinking the ship

01:00:04

I think god is actively sinking the ship and uh Why hold why hold on to a ship that's that god himself is sinking

01:00:14

Yeah, I don't I don't I said this on the podcast we did last night I do not understand the the purpose of anybody staying inside the denomination.

01:00:21

I think more More would be done for the truth. If you had an organized coordinated scheduled and planned exit from the southern baptist denomination and i'm not talking about one i'm talking about I'm not talking about one or two guys just sort of trickling out as one church after another leaves over the course the next 10 years

01:00:40

I'm talking about a systematic and coordinated Exit from we could call it a bexit a baptist, uh, or sebex or whatever we want to call.

01:00:48

Yeah Uh of the good guys, I mean taking their churches and writing writing um declaration of independence type declarations against 95 theses quality

01:01:01

Screeds against the southern baptist denomination and where it is going and all of them leaving on the same day

01:01:07

Whatever day the southern baptist denomination came into existence make that your target date Whatever day it is in the next 365 days make that your target date

01:01:15

And make a coordinated effort to leave the denomination every last one of you at once And you publish on your blog and on your website?

01:01:23

and On your social media accounts the reasons that you're leaving and all of those churches leave that would make a huge statement

01:01:29

And it would be a huge testimony To the uh to the truth of scripture and to the willingness of those men to stand against the denomination

01:01:36

For the truth of scripture. That's how I think it should be handled and Once again, we covered this at the beginning.

01:01:42

I'm not a southern baptist pastor So I got no dog in that hunt and it's easy for me to say from from my comfy chair here in the shade of north idaho yeah, but uh

01:01:51

You know, especially with this this this scandal and if it if it is left Unchecked which apparently it is because uh, you listened to the interview that linton did today there was no hint in there of you know,

01:02:05

I might I might need to step down for the betterment of the convention to to You know just i'm a distraction now.

01:02:12

Uh, it's it's All he's done. Why should he step down? All he's done is the same thing that a dozens and dozens of others have been doing

01:02:20

In this cottage industry in the sbc for years Yeah, the ironic thing is that if I had if I had done one percent

01:02:29

Of the plagiarism just that I have seen from ed linton Not only would

01:02:35

I have been kicked out and there's a whole lot more I have no doubt that I have not seen never will see But if I had done one percent of the amount of plagiarism that I have seen from ed linton already

01:02:46

Not only would I have been kicked out of seminary as a seminary student and I would have I would have been kicked out of mississippi state university my undergraduate.

01:02:56

I would have been kicked as a secular institution Even the pagans understand this, right?

01:03:03

Right, even the pagans get it. I would have been kicked out of a secular godless institution

01:03:09

And yet ed linton has done far more and he is the president of the sbc

01:03:16

Yeah, but hey justin the world's watching the world's watching world's watching it's like the it's like the right guy world's watching

01:03:22

In fact, they said that on that interview They said that on interview the world's watching. I mean you need to be real careful.

01:03:27

The world's watching our conduct Well, yeah, they are they're watching they sure are a complete clown show out of the southern baptist denomination

01:03:34

Yep, they sure are. Yep Now the clown show has been going on in the background It's just now that somebody just shined a light on it and said oh this is what's been going on in southern baptist church

01:03:42

Just for years. Yeah, exactly the plagiarism Yeah, I mean we can't pretend that this is all new that this is all happened since may no or that it's been one guy

01:03:51

Ed linton is the one guy in the southern baptism. They just happen to stumble upon The one guy the one guy in the whole southern baptist denomination who plagiarizes sermons and preaches other people's material

01:04:01

Just that one guy he happened to become the southern baptist president. What are the odds? Just I mean, it's just it's wuhan luck.

01:04:07

If you didn't have wuhan luck, you wouldn't have any luck at all, right? Right, exactly I mean you go to you can go to um, rick warren's

01:04:15

Website right now. I did just the other day and all of his sermons are available for a download I think it's four dollars per download um get everything, you know sermon outline content illustrations everything good to go bada boom bada bing get up and you know

01:04:30

Read it on and there are thousands of pastors that do it thousands Yeah, the church that I the church that I did my internship up in in northern saskatchewan

01:04:40

Had a pastor, uh a few years back who was doing the very same thing He was caught He was caught reading one of rick warren's sermons preaching all the materials if it was his own

01:04:49

And one of the elders in that church, um, uh was a friend of mine And he he called me up and he said hey

01:04:55

I was sitting in a sunday sermon and listened to it. I thought man It sounds familiar. So he said I just went and googled it and found out he's just preaching rick warren's sermons

01:05:04

Yeah Thousands there are thousands of pastors who do that And so it's a whole cottage industry and the southern baptist denomination for two decades has been we see no evil.

01:05:13

We hear no evil Right, right Speaking of spc presidents. I think I sent you the video

01:05:19

Did I send you the short little video of james merit from 2007? Yeah. Yep so james merit for those of you who are watching he was um,

01:05:27

He's a pastor of a very large southern baptist church and former president of the spc I don't remember what year he was president, but he's former president of spc and um he actually

01:05:38

Said on a father's day. Uh, he said I Here is my sermon.

01:05:44

You can go to Website .com whatever it was download it Everything's there powerpoint slides all there and he said you have my permission and just go at it and preach my stuff and And then he literally the next words out of his mouth

01:06:02

The subject that i've been assigned tonight is holiness I love pastors and I know that father's day is coming and I want to give you something if you'll go to pastorsedge .com

01:06:14

And go to the newsletter section There's a father's day message there complete with powerpoint notes for your people a complete manuscript

01:06:21

And I hereby authorize you to preach every word. You're not plagiarizing. So just enjoy yourself. Okay?

01:06:26

But tonight I was given the topic of holiness And you know

01:06:32

The irony would have been if his first point was the way you pursue holiness is you get alone with god in his word And you study it preparing your own messages

01:06:40

Right He just no self -awareness whatsoever. Oh my goodness. I just absolutely none.

01:06:46

It's like a babylon bee Yeah, I mean, yeah, they have a hard time writing this stuff. No kidding.

01:06:52

No kidding Where is the fear of god, I mean, where is the fear of god?

01:06:59

I You know, we all say that we're going to give an account one day before christ, and pastors would say that that they're going to you know, they're going to give an account and they will but But you know what one of these days

01:07:13

You and I Jim and no one else. We're not going to give an account to a board to a committee to a denomination

01:07:20

We're not going to give an account to any of those people. We're going to stand before christ and that thought terrifies me

01:07:26

I mean that is not that i'm like afraid of losing my salvation because theologically

01:07:31

I know that but But to know that one day I will stand before the thrice holy

01:07:38

King of kings and lord of lords and have to give an account for what i've done with his word how

01:07:43

I have handled it The the way I have taught his sheep

01:07:49

That terrifies me and i'm just Yeah I'm, i'm just at a loss for words to do to even

01:07:57

I can't even wrap my mind around what is going through the minds Of these men who step behind the pulpit sunday after sunday after sunday and read somebody else's work as if it was their own

01:08:09

And how they so sloppily handle the word of god. I mean to say something like the bible doesn't even differentiate between Heterosexuality and homosexuality.

01:08:17

How do you say that? How do you how do you say that? um Something like you know how

01:08:22

I know that homosexuality will not send you to hell because heterosexuality will not send you to heaven

01:08:29

Homosexuality does not send you to hell You know how I know that because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven

01:08:37

Homosexuality does not send people to hell. How do I know that because heterosexuality doesn't send people to heaven.

01:08:42

Yeah Oh my goodness that's horrible theology and uh And what's been going on in Southern Baptist denomination for years is that exposition has been lost, true exposition.

01:08:53

Now these men get up and they read, and this is something you and I should discuss in a series of videos on the subject, but these men will get up and they will read the passage of scripture, a passage of scripture, and then they'll give three or four points on it.

01:09:05

Sometimes the points are connected to the passage of scripture. Sometimes the ideas of the points are drawn out of the passage of scripture, but it's not an exposition.

01:09:12

It's not, people do not walk away from that with a clear understanding of what that passage teaches in its context and how it connects to the argument of the author in its text, in its context.

01:09:22

That's what expository preaching does, serial expository preaching. And so they have been, they have abandoned expository preaching a long, long time ago in favor of a far more seeker -friendly, a dumbed down sort of common, lowest common denominator

01:09:39

Christianity approach to getting up and teaching scripture. Really, it's three points that they gin up, that they're just sort of hanging on words and phrases in scripture rather than allowing scripture to speak for itself.

01:09:51

So men who do not exposit scripture and handle scripture in the way that Ed Litt, J .D. Greer, and all the other guys that we've mentioned in this podcast, which are not solid,

01:10:01

Andy Stanley and all the cohorts, those men do not, they don't tremble at the threshold of biblical texts.

01:10:10

And that phraseology, I'm not sure if that is the title of a book or it's something that I read in an expository preaching text, or if it's something

01:10:16

I got out of preaching class in Bible college. I don't know where I got it. But the idea of trembling at the threshold of the biblical text that like Isaiah did when he saw

01:10:24

God, when you step upon the threshold of stepping into scripture, trembling at the idea that I have this text of scripture, that I'm going to be responsible for communicating its meaning to people and not put

01:10:35

God's words in God's mouth and not leave out things that God would have said in this passage. Not editing him in any way, but accurately representing the intended meaning of the author and the intended meaning of the

01:10:47

Holy Spirit in this passage of scripture. That is daunting and it should terrify men. And the fact that he would just say,

01:10:53

I'm just going to farm that out to my eight guys on staff with me here. That shows me that he has no true reverence for the word of God, whatever his doctrinal statement on his church website might be concerning scripture.

01:11:03

He has no true fear of the word of God and no reverence for it. He has no high view of scripture at all, or he would never want to farm that out to anybody, cogent group or a docent group or any other group of pastors.

01:11:16

He wouldn't want to farm that. He would want to step into the text himself. If he really valued it that way and do all of the work himself in the text.

01:11:22

Right. And you would affirm this Jim as a pastor and I'm not a pastor, but I do preach sermons as I have an opportunity to do so.

01:11:33

No one benefits more from doing exposition than the expositor.

01:11:42

Then the one who is actually if the expositor is doing it, right? Yeah, if the expositor is doing it, right, he's getting the most out of it.

01:11:48

And I, you know that I don't preach through passages scripture fast in terms of like,

01:11:53

I don't cover 10, 12 verses at a time. So people think that I go really slow and I do go,

01:12:03

I do go what I think is appropriate to the material that I'm handling. That's my goal. It's my goal is never to go faster to go slow, but to go in a method appropriate to communicating everything that the author would intend, everything that is there and connect all the dots and to be thorough.

01:12:17

I want to do that. And when I am doing that, even though I go as slow as I do,

01:12:26

I'd leave a tremendous amount of stuff on the editing room floor. There are points and observations that I just have to cut out for the sake of time.

01:12:35

And those are all things that have those are all diamonds, if you will, that I have polished and spent the time polishing.

01:12:42

I've unearthed them. I've worked for them. I brought them to the surface. I've admired them. I've been changed by them, but I have to drop them on the editing room floor and to leave room for the other things that I need to communicate because time prohibits me from including everything that I discover in my own study.

01:12:59

So I'm only presenting a portion of what I glean from a passage in my own study on any given

01:13:05

Sunday. And I'm doing it in an inadequate way and I've wrestled with God and I don't think that my efforts are the best efforts that could be made.

01:13:18

There are men who do a better job of it than I do. And but yet I benefit from it to a tremendous degree and I would never sacrifice.

01:13:26

I would never farm that out to anybody else for anything. You could not pay me enough money. It wouldn't matter how busy my week would be.

01:13:32

I would never farm that. I would just say I don't have time to preach this week. So somebody else is going to have to do it for me.

01:13:37

If I don't have time to do that studying, then I don't have time to prepare to get up into the pulpit and I wouldn't.

01:13:46

I just wouldn't. And I know that from firsthand experience because there's been times, you know, usually when you ask me to preach at Kootenay, it's because you've got something else going on that you've got to attend to, somewhere you've got to go, you've got to go out of town.

01:13:58

And I can't tell you how many times I've heard you say, you know, I don't have time to prepare a sermon for this week.

01:14:05

And you fill in on next Sunday, you know, and so I know that to be true.

01:14:11

Yeah. And when my time is strained, I just simply cut out other things. I have three book ideas that I would love to be working on right now, but I still have the time.

01:14:18

I get 40 hours a week to sermon prep, you know, and I have other pressing demands of ministry, but I can take my sermon prep effort and I can scrunch it down and hopefully become fruitful with less time spent, but I still have to do all the steps of the same work in order to prepare it, but I can try and take what should cost me 30 hours in a week and I can try and get it down into 20 or 24 if a week is really demanding.

01:14:46

And sometimes I can get a sermon and preach that, but I'm still doing the work. I don't farm that out to make room for other things.

01:14:55

There is no other thing that I'm primarily called to. There's no other thing that any pastor is primarily called to.

01:15:01

Exactly. That's right. That's right. And if you're too busy to prepare a sermon, then you either need some help doing other responsibilities or you don't need to be preaching.

01:15:12

Yeah. Yeah. And in our church, we just have a motto. If we don't have time to get it done, it just doesn't get done.

01:15:19

I mean, there's other things that can fall by the wayside. The world is not, you know, my primary responsibility is not to write another book.

01:15:25

My primary responsibility is not to go out and visit every family in your church this week. I have big items that need to be fit in and studying is one of those.

01:15:34

And if I don't have time for other things, then they just get put off until next week if I can get to them. I love what you said a minute ago that there's not enough money to pay you to farm that out to anyone else.

01:15:47

The research and studies, there's not enough money to get me to give that responsibility to someone else.

01:15:54

You want to do this. Oh, yeah. Look, I've said when I when I get down, okay, it's not uncommon for me to pray one before my study to thank

01:16:04

God for the joy that I have of spending my days studying scripture and that the church pays me so that I am freed up from other concerns to earn money so that I can devote my time to doing that.

01:16:16

That is I think the biggest blessing in my life and I wouldn't give that I wouldn't give that up anymore that I would give up one of my children or my wife.

01:16:22

This is a huge blessing in my life. Why would I farm that out to the docent group? What lunatic would farm out the time that he could be spending in God's word and the church at the church pays you to freeze you up to do that.

01:16:36

That's the biggest blessing in your life. The greatest thing you could be given your time to do and so why would you hire somebody else to do that on your behalf?

01:16:46

Right, but I'd be like me hiring somebody else to take my wife out. Hey, take her out for dinner. Take her to a fancy restaurant.

01:16:52

Give her some roses. Make it really special, you know, cuddle up with her. Maybe kiss her a couple times in the forehead when you pull out her chair for her.

01:17:00

Just make it really nice for her and I got other things I got to do or a team of men to date and court my wife.

01:17:06

I would never do that. Being with her is the greatest blessing of my life. Why would I take scripture and have somebody else do all the work in that?

01:17:15

It's the greatest blessing of my ministry is the time I get to spend in studying and researching and doing all that for my own fruitfulness, my own blessing of my own soul.

01:17:23

I would never hire other people to do that. It's insane. The fact that they would do this proves that they just have such a low view of scripture.

01:17:30

There's no other way of saying that. Yeah. No, there's not. There's not. Yeah, you run up into some pretty stark spiritual realities as we discuss these things.

01:17:41

Very smart. And yeah, okay.

01:17:46

Well, Jim, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for taking the time. Yeah. Thank you.

01:17:52

And thank you for taking your time to study, to show yourself approved unto God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

01:18:00

I'll get to see you next weekend. You're going to be up here at church with us. Yes, looking forward to it.

01:18:06

I'm looking forward to it, buddy. Yeah, I am as well. Thank you. All right. Well, dear ones, hope this was helpful for you.

01:18:15

We covered a lot of ground and actually more ground than I even thought that we would and some pretty hard things were said, but these are realities.

01:18:26

And so I hope that this has encouraged you. I hope it's challenged you. And if you find yourself in a church where you are not truly being fed, if you're just getting someone else's materials, someone else's sloppy seconds over, you know, you need to find a shepherd that will nourish your soul, shepherd you, teach you the word of God, and do the work that an elder is biblically called to do.

01:18:56

All right. Thank you very much, dear ones. Until our next time together, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of his