Plagiarism, Homosexuality, Pastoral Integrity and the State of the SBC: An Interview With Jim Osman

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today. I want to thank you very much for joining me for this podcast. So the big news in the evangelical world and more specifically in the SBC world for the last week or a little better Has been plagiarism the plagiarism scandal of Ed Litton the newly elected president of the SBC and I did a Video on this about a week or so ago and since then as I predicted Many many many more videos have come out documenting the just absolutely undeniable plagiarism and it is voluminous plagiarism by Ed Litton and you know, I one of the ironic things about this is that Ed Litton and I actually went to the same seminary Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary now we were there at different times.

I was there in the mid to late 90s early 2000s, but if I had he was there much earlier. I say much earlier probably about 10 or so years earlier, but had I done 1 of the amount of plagiarism that Ed Litton has done and that's just of the plagiarism of which I am aware.

Undoubtedly, there's a ton out more out there that I have not seen and never will see. But if I had if I had been caught doing just 1 of what I've seen I would have been kicked out of seminary rightfully, so Not only what I've been kicked out of seminary.

I would have been kicked out of Mississippi State University a completely secular Institution that I that I intended as an undergraduate, you know my college years I would have been kicked out of a secular university for doing this much more much less a seminary and Here is Ed Litton, he is the president of the entire Southern Baptist Convention it's just surreal and so I've asked Jim Osmond the pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho.

I have a link to his church down in the description below. So I asked him to come on and to offer us his thoughts he has been the pastor of Kootenai Community Church for 24 almost 25 years now, I believe and So we're gonna talk about this.

We're gonna talk about plagiarism. We're gonna play excerpts of Ed Litton's Interview in which he he he offers something of an apology, but we're gonna talk about that. I've got Again excerpts that will play and I'll get Jim Osmond's reaction to this.

Also the issues that are just involved with this. What does that mean for? From an integrity standpoint. What does that mean from a pastoral standpoint? Sermon preparation all of these kinds of issues.

We're also going to talk about homosexuality and the issues Related to that because they also tie into this plagiarism stuff. It's it's quite the tangled web that has been woven at the right. Yeah woven I believe that has been woven.

So we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the just the rampant plagiarism in the SPC. It is it is quite the problem all throughout the SPC. We'll talk about that and So I hope that this interview will be helpful for you.

We're gonna cover an awful lot of ground some difficult Things will be said we're going to talk about the state of the SPC in general and the dangerous slide the dangerous direction that it is Undeniably heading right now and we will acknowledge that there are some some good folks in the SPC And some good churches, but the SPC is heading in a very very Dangerous direction is heading there quite Speedily, so, all right.

Thank you very much there once here we go into the interview. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we're moving now to the interview section of this video and I wanted to interview This is Jim Osmond. He's the pastor of Kootenai Community Church in Sandpoint, Idaho.

Jim. Thank you for coming on the program. Yeah, thanks for having me on yeah, good deal and Jim I wanted to have you on because for a couple of different reasons one, we're friends I know you I've watched your life for a number of years a decade or so now.

So I've I've been a member of your church you've been my pastor before and Until we moved and so so I know you and I trust you and I trust your impartial judgment. And also, you're not SPC, right?

No, I'm not. Our church is non-denominational. We are not affiliated with any combination.

Okay. All right. So you've you've never been a part of the SPC and I really want I've never been a member of an SPC. Okay, so you're not some guy that's got a personal axe to grind Against us. You're not.

You're not trying to get ed litten out so the other guy can get in.

So that I could be the president right there. No, no not at all, okay.

All right. So so Jim you've seen a lot of the videos of the undeniable plagiarism Regarding JD Greer and the ed litten. I think JD Greer has has some of his own issues, but primarily here ed litten plagiarizing JD Greer and so you've seen this.

What way I showed you the video of ed litten plagiarizing JD Greer's. Yeah message or illustration of.

Driver's ed. You know when I took driver's ed.

I was thinking about this the other day because my daughters are about this age where they're getting into this and driver's ed I had. I don't. I think they still do it. But the car that I took driver's ed in had the guy sitting next to me had this big old break.

That's all he had. Y 'all have this the big old break coming out and it meant that he could stop that car anytime. He wanted. In fact, he did it like after we've been out for a while. About five minutes just to show me that he had it.

So I want to turn and he just like slam that break and I just you know. Slam in there. And what he was showing me was you think you're in control of this car. And i'm letting you drive but I can stop this car anytime.

I want to.

You don't need a list of suggestions from pastor ed. You need to. You need new life from jesus christ. I took driver's ed in high school. That was a trip. I'll never forget the guy who was teaching me.

I noticed he had a strange thing over. Just underneath the the glove box. There was this break. And and when I first pulled out of the parking lot, he stomped on it to show me who really boss was. And and and i'll never forget that.

When you come to christ, you don't come. You basically turn over the brake. You're like because I would describe probably some of our spiritual lives that way Is it jesus is speaking to you and you're like, yeah.

Yeah, let's do that. Let's go over here. That sounds awesome. I'll do that. But every once in a while you're like nope. You push that brake in. And the car comes to a halt because you've never actually surrendered it to him.

You've kept that brake right in place. To be surrendered to jesus means you take the brake away.

Many of us see our relationship to christ that way and i'm not talking about you're the student driver. You're the guy with the brake. And to come to christ and to surrender to him means that you give him the steering wheel.

But you need to uninstall that brake, dude. You need to stop slamming on it every time god starts moving in your life.

But ultimately he had the veto power. He had not surrendered the car to me.

Until you surrender your brake to the holy spirit of god.

Friend you're vetoing god. Who do you think you are? What what were your thoughts when you saw that?

Well, the first thing of course, it's it's obvious plagiarism It is possible. It is conceivably possible that Ed litton and jd grier had the exact same driver's ed teacher. That's conceivably possible It is conceivably possible that that same teacher gave the same illustration to every class that he That he had that is possible.

It's also possible that It's conceivably possible that ed litton Remembers being in driver's ed and he heard jd grier's illustration And then thought well, that's a good one. I remember that as well but Then he went on to tell that exact illustration Of that teacher doing the same thing.

It would be one thing if he had simply Taken the illustration of a foot pedal on the on the passenger side of a driver's ed car and and likened it borrowed the illustration and then kind of Generalized it sometimes it's possible for us to do that in a sermon where we hear a good illustration Of happening in somebody else's life, but then we don't tell it as if it happened in our own life Instead we tell it as as a good illustration of a point that's something You know if i'm if i'm taking an illustration from the life of david livingston, for instance I don't talk about going to the mission field in africa and meeting never before reached tribes, but instead I would talk about somebody who went to the mission field in africa, but Lytton didn't do that.

Lytton took the illustration and told it as if he had experienced that That is nothing less than a bald-faced lie And there's no way he could tell that Unless his conscience is seared with a clean conscience.

There's no way he could tell that illustration Knowing that he's lying. He knew that it wasn't his illustration, but he told it as if that had happened to him And that is the that is the definition of duplicity And and and lying and bearing false witness.

He is he is saying something happened that in fact Did not happen unless he's going to make the case that he and and uh, grier had the same driver's ed teacher.

Yeah.

And I haven't done any background research, but i'm pretty sure they didn't grow up in the same hometown. I don't even think they grew up in the same state. So, uh.

In the interest of full disclosure is it is a hypothetical possibility that they have the same teacher.

Hypothetically like it is. Possible that you're going to be attacked by a polar bear before this interview. So it is good. It could be.

I mean the odds are probably similar.

Yeah.

Can you um as a pastor? Yeah, I mean, okay, so we're all liars, right? You're a liar. I'm a liar. Let god be true and every man a liar. So we're not saying that none of us has ever told a lie. Of course we have but um.

As a as a pastor, you've been a pastor for about a quarter of a century now about 25 years. 25 years almost.

Yeah.

Can you. Can you fathom. Can you. Can you fathom getting up before? Your people at kootenai community church and. Telling a story as your own that you knew Was not yours. Can you conceive of even doing that?

No, no, I can't uh simply because in today's day I mean other than the fact that it's a lie and I just I cannot imagine Stepping into the pulpit and using a lie to try and illustrate truth. I can't even imagine doing that but It is so bald-faced as to do it in an age when literally every sermon is recorded and posted online.

And transcribed by youtube you can google these things the internet has an incredible memory. I mean just even if I had no integrity at all, and I was tempted to do it, which i'm not ever I would never do it for that very reason that you know.

That's going to be found out you can't you can't possibly plagiarize something like that and not have it be brought to light. Especially when you ascend to the highest position in the southern baptist convention.

I mean the world is watching the christian world is watching and they're going to look be looking for stuff like that. So no, I I think it's it's um, it's lying. It's nothing short of lying and I just can't even conceive how anybody would Get to the point of doing that it shows just a complete lack of integrity.

Yeah, yeah.

Well in uh in doing some research for this i've come across in fact a friend of mine bud alheim Sent me this link. So apparently Some of the material for the sermons that J .D. Greer writes and ed linton writes comes from a website or an organization called the docent Research group.

I've never even heard of them until the last 18 hours or so. So I looked them up and uh, just read this to you off of the website says we are a knowledgeable team of researchers. Researchers all seminary trained.

Our researchers are either earning mdivs or phds or they've already earned them. We are passionate about god's word and the church's theology and we love the opportunity to advance god's kingdom by serving the preachers of the word.

So this is a this is a research group that apparently pastors can can uh hire employ their services. I didn't even look up the prices but Uh, they'll do research for you. Tell them, you know, I need research on this.

I need research on that. I need I need you to give me sermon ideas for this text. What does this mean do research in the in the languages? Apparently they can do all of that.

And.

I found this paragraph interesting. They said Once we have learned from you How to best serve you We recruit a specific dedicated research team That is matched to your field to your theological commitments and your style.

You will have a dedicated team captain who will keep in contact with you and lead the research team to deliver exactly what you request so we will match the content to your Theological commitments.

Yeah.

Take it away. What does that is that is nothing less than madison avenue advertising pr firm brought into the church. What they're saying is we have no principles or theological convictions. But what are yours if you're a cessationist we'll give you a cessationist message for first corinthians 13.

If you're a continuationist, we'll give you a continuationist message from first corinthians 13. If you're a mill post mill mid trip post trip pre trip, whatever your theological stripe, whatever your confession, whatever your Slant, whatever your theological peccadilloes, whatever they are.

We will we will take the text of scripture and the research and we will customize it to fit whatever your perceived audiences. That would be no different than a pastor going to them and saying look I I want to.

I want to reach a certain demographic of people and I need to know what my brand should be. I need to know how I should be Packaging and marketing myself to the community or to the the world at large in order to sort of hit my niche market.

It's the same thing that they're doing with sermons. What's your niche theological market and we will take the text of scripture as well as all of the research. And we'll customize it to fit that. Um, that is somebody here's the danger of that for a pastor a pastor.

Like say I were to go to them and say All right. I'm a cessationist church. We're baptistic. Uh credo baptist. So we don't pay no baptist. We're reformed in our theology hold to the reformed doctrines of the faith that we're pre-millennial.

And cessationist and um believe in the I give my doctrinal statement my entire doctrinal statement and then I say, okay. Um, I want I want sermons in a sermon series on the book of ephesians. That match this theological conviction so that when I preach these or read these that all the powerpoints and everything is all Pre-packaged according to that theology that theological parameters.

Right, then I get up and I deliver that here's what's not happening. Here's what's not happening is me sitting down at my desk and taking the passage of scripture and allowing the passage of scripture to shape My theology so that when I stand in the pulpit.

My theology is the outflow of the exposition and exegesis of scripture that i've done. When I went through the book of ephesians in my own preaching schedule I there was a some areas of my theology that had to be tightened up some doctrines that I had changed that I had long believed.

Well, if you use something like the docent group, all you're doing is telling them Here's my theology. Mold the scripture to fit it and the opposite should be taking place. What should be taking place is I sit down in front of scripture and it becomes the grinding wheel.

That grinds away at me and the rough edges of my theology so that scripture hones my theology not my preconceived theology honing the text of scripture. Um, and that should be the goal of every bible expositor and exegete is to sit down.

And yes, we acknowledge that we have presuppositions when we approach the text. But then in reading through that text and studying the text we want to be open to the fact that I may be holding to the wrong presuppositions.

I may have theological convictions that I ought not to have. And scripture is the authority so scripture must inform that and shape me. So the pastors who use the docent group are saying i'm going to allow my theology to shape my understanding of scripture and my presentation Of scripture rather than i'm going to spend the time and the effort in the word of god.

So that scripture shapes my theology and develops me rather than my my theology developing a sermon. My working in the sermon and the text should be developing my theology. Changing it if need be and and people who would use something like the docent group Are missing out on the whole role of studying and expositing scripture in the life and ministry of a pastor.

Right uh in in the endorsements. This uh, docent research group is endorsed by mark driscoll.

Oh, that's high praise.

Yeah.

Mark, driscoll. Craig groeschel who is the lead pastor of life church tv in uh, edmond, oklahoma. Who is uh, you know kind of a joel osteen ish. Maybe a little bit more meat than joel osteen, but but still very well.

That's he just put. No that's not saying much. That's a low bar. I mean, right. To say you got more meat than joel osteen means that you basically took the dry bone and you put a ligament down the side Of it and that's about it.

Yeah.

That's pretty good illustration actually and and i've been to that church once before actually. Kathy and I both have sat in a service and um, that's that's pretty good pretty good way to describe it.

So. So jim ed litton went on earlier today as of this recording this is july the second evening of july the second 2021 and. Uh, he he did an interview and he was asked about this Scandal, I mean, I I think that that's a fair way to describe it.

It is a scandal. And uh, so i've got some audio clips from this Interview and I just want to play these. As he's asked about the plagiarism. And uh his approach to sermon writing. So i'm just going to play this.

And once the audio finishes get you to respond.

Okay.

Had jd's permission but encouragement. The other thing we did is I as we were trying to outline the book of romans, which is a challenge. Uh, we we finally looked at it and looked at what they'd covered.

It felt like it was sufficient. And we also received permission to use the passages from week to week and so that makes it look even more similar, but. What i'm stating is that that we did our we did our greek work we did our commentary work and.

And then usually i'll have someone I listen to and I exercise when i'm doing something. Traveling to help reinforce and give me thoughts and creative ideas. And there's a lot of reasons we do this. In part I do it to.

Stay fresh. Listen to new voices. Sometimes I listen to older voices. But but to help me communicate to my people. The essence of what the word of god is saying.

Yeah, so I guess what you're kind of saying in essence is that The sermons from jd would just like another commentary for you and in the preparation that kind of thing.

A lot of them. I didn't really even listen and I would go straight to his written up notes that he provides. And so yes, very much like a commentary in that sense. And and you know what, you know as well when you listen to our cues are when you read our uses commentaries.

And you listen to a sermon like on gospel coalition. You'll find that that his commentaries are going right out of that sermon work.

Which is understandable. Yeah, and likewise. I mean there's a whole commentary series that's exegetical sermon series. Danny Akin, David Platt, Tony Morita are the general editors at so. And we've got the RK Hughes Hebrews one sitting right here in front of me on my desk, too.

So and he's awesome.

So jim aside from this being an obviously Softball interview. I mean this reminded me of like msnbc interviewing Joe biden, this is such a softball such a friendly. Yeah, i'm going to try to help you in this.

Yeah, what kind of ice cream did you have today? Mr. President? Right, exactly. Exactly. And speaking of your son. What kind of ice cream does your son like?

Yeah, right, right.

So.

Aside from those issues, um. What do you think of his explanation of of why he. Now he wouldn't call it plagiarizing, but that's obviously what he did, but. What. What were your impressions of that?

So his argument is that he's using jd greer sermons in the same way that I might use john mcarthur's Commentaries. We treated him as a commentary. He said at one point in that interview that in one point that clip that you played that we we took the written notes of the sermons basically and used them like we much like we did a commentary and then of course the the interviewer just likens that to danny akin's exegetical series in various bible books or.

Is trying to compare that to how you are you and I might?

Uh.

Consult any of the number of commentaries that are on the shelf behind you but here's the difference a sermon is not a commentary. A sermon is somebody else's crafting of the voice of god the message that they're getting out of the text now whether Jd. Greer is able to do that faithfully or profoundly at all.

We'll set that issue aside. But a sermon is my a sermon is the product of my work in the text. And then I put together the message and I use my own. My own way of expressing the truth my own way of communicating the truth customized by my personality through my experience through my personality through Jim osmond so that that is what comes out to the people.

In the pew when I get up and I preach and I explain that using my own words. That's a sermon. He didn't consult jd. Greer's sermons like they were commentaries because He took and he lifted massive portions of it right out of there and preached the sermon.

So that would be like me standing up and just reading macarthur's commentary. On the book of hebrews, which i'm preaching through now just getting up and opening up his commentary and reading it through illustrations.

Cross references and everything and then sitting down that's not consulting a commentary. That's reading a commentary and calling it a sermon. So even if even his illustration that he uses the way he tries to get around it.

It doesn't fly at all. He He doesn't use that sermon like you and I or like anybody would be taught to use a commentary. In a southern baptist seminary and and I would say this is this what the professors did the southern baptist seminaries Are teaching their preaching students that this is how you consult commentaries.

Now when I preach through the book of ephesians and i've taught through passages romans i'll consult Uh spurgeon sermons on that in fact every passage that I preach I usually will read what sermons, uh, spurgeon has preached on that um, mostly because sometimes spurgeon is very quotable and he'll oftentimes use a good illustration, but when I give that illustration, uh, I don't Borrow it or use it without referencing spurgeon and I don't borrow his language without saying as spurgeon said i'll quote spurgeon.

Or I will I will consult Um martin lloyd jones's commentaries or his written sermons has published sermons on a passage. But I do those I do those not so that I can find the wording or so that I can lift large sections of the outline out of that.

I use that because I want to see how other men have communicated The truth of the passages they saw that in as a result of their own study. Um, that's not what we do with with commentary. So that that excuse just doesn't fly.

I think it was probably enough to appease most southern baptists who would be listening to that podcast that oh, yeah, that makes sense. He was just using it like a commentary. I've heard my pastor use Uh commentaries in that way and quote commentaries.

Well, he didn't he wasn't quoting jd greer he was lifting entire illustrations like the brake pedal on the driver's side or the passenger side of the Driver's ed car. He was lifting entire illustrations entire Exegesis of the scripture or isogesis of the scripture and entire phrases and passages out of greer sermons and all he was doing was Modifying them slightly but not even enough that you can't tell exactly where they came from with a little bit of effort.

Yeah, right.

Okay, so that's that's actually a pretty good segue into our next clip here this also from the same interview. Um, we'll get your reflections on this.

And in your answer you mentioned we a lot I know you talked about in the statement you employ a sermon team Approach to help you collaboratively create these sermons. So can you talk to us? What does that look like at redemption church?

Well, let me tell you why we started doing it and it's one of the best things i've been a part of a long time. We have a lot of young men on staff and we have young people that feel a call. A young man that feel a call to the lord and layman in our church to at least on occasion to preach the gospel.

And so our purpose was to raise up a new generation of gospel communicators gospel preachers. And uh or illustrations. And then we finish the rest of the week building that out for whoever the preachers are going to be.

And again, I lead that process because I am discipling young preachers and. And of course, you know from all that people have assumed about this. That was people would say don't disciple anymore because you're messed up.

But the reality is. Um, it is. It's a very effective way and for me it's been a powerful tool because i'm listening to other voices.

Well, it looks like we have an audio issue here in the podcast. Dr. Linton's air pods just died folks. Uh, we're going to switch him over to some wired headphones. There you go. Now you got it. Now you were talking about how this was a discipleship issue that the team approach allows you to disciple those on the team.

The real motivation behind this was discipleship. It's it's helping raise up a new generation of pastors and leaders who can communicate the gospel.

Okay, so jim. Two questions a or one. What do you believe? What do you think about the team approach? To writing sermons. He has an eight team member that helps him Do the research compose and and write his sermons.

A what do you think about that? Is that something you do. And then the second question is. I was struck by how he said this is a Mentorship a discipleship effort. This is one of the ways that he disciples young preachers.

So yeah, so let me just paraphrase what he just said. What he just said is that um. We we use we disciple young preachers to not do their own Work in the text. But to rely upon so heavily upon the work of other people in doing it that they're not actually crafting a sermon at all.

Themselves. They're a team approach to it. And then we teach them to preach other people's sermons. That's his method of discipleship. He's basically just saying look we're just raising up a generation of young leaders in our church that will Uh plagiarize and lift material and not do any of the heavy lifting of exegesis.

Uh in the same way that I don't. So, I mean a student when he's fully trained will be just like his teacher and he's just raising up people who'd be just like.

Him.

Um, and again, I would ask the leadership of the southern baptist denomination is this what you're training your people in your seminaries to do. And uh, there might be people say oh no. No our seminaries aren't doing that.

Okay. Well, look I got I got to challenge that because the president of your denomination is doing it. He's been doing it for years and now he's leading your denomination. So don't tell me that your seminaries aren't going to be following suit.

So what do what do I think of the team approach to minute to to doing that. That is not how i've had the opportunity to disciple a couple of guys in in leadership or in uh in teaching and preaching and i'll explain to you my methodology when i'm done with this, but This is not how you go about doing that.

This is the the purpose of a pastor in taking a passage of scripture is not to put it out there and let a team Of people hash it over and come up with great ideas and cobble that all together. And use jd greer sermons and and do it and rely on that so heavily that you are quoting from him verbatim.

For large passages the message and then go out and preach that the purpose of a pastor studying a passage is do you get down alone with yourself and your god and the Pastoral scripture and in prayer you are doing the work of looking at the greek and the grammar and you do the outlining and you.

You do the meditating. You spend the hours sitting there staring at that page thinking through the outline thinking through the implications. Thinking through the context the argument that the author is making from the first of the book to the last of the book making sure that you can Express the meaning of that passage in one sentence that it's clear in your mind.

And that you yourself are bringing your life in conformity this truth and reminding yourself of the truth of this passage so that. You take this and then you put it into your own words and you have spent time with god in his word.

Because god meets with us in his word. So the word is the arena in which god meets with us and we step into that. And we wrestle through the passage and we think through the passage and we allow it to saturate our hearts and our minds.

Then what a pastor does is he steps into the pulpit? With all of his own work and labor in that he steps into the pulpit and invites the gathered assembly of the people of god. To meet with that same god in that same word and that pastor leads them through his own discovery in the text.

Showing them how what god is saying in the passage is true and how it applies. And he is he is taking them on a guided tour as it were through that passage of scripture. So that he is allowing them to see in 45 minutes of his preaching.

What it took him 45 hours in a study to come up with or to to labor through. And in doing that with the word. He's inviting in all of those people to meet with god in the word and hear the voice of god in the text of scripture.

As the pastor shows how he along with the congregation sits under the word of god. Under the authority of christ and how we all together meet with god there in that passage of scriptures. That is the that is the point of preaching.

And when the word of god is rightly preached the voice of god is truly heard because in his word he meets with his people. Now if you take that all of that effort and all of that energy. That should be 40 30 40 hours a week of study and labor and writing and thinking and reviewing and preparing and praying.

Yeah, and all of that and you farm that out to a group of people and then you take back the fruit of their collective share a bible study, which is more like What I call an syi bible study share your ignorance a bunch of people who are being discipled in doing that.

They're all getting together. They're pooling all of their resources and handing it back to you and you get up and preach what they came up with. Then you are not a guided tour guide for the people of god.

When they meet with god in the text instead you're just up there regurgitating a well-packaged pr product. Yeah, so no, that's what I think of that discipleship approach now I'm going to get to the second question here in a second.

You can see why it takes me so long to go through a book in the bible because I take forever to explain this but okay, I'll get to the second question in a second, but.

To.

To talk about how I would mentor men. This is I would take a totally different approach so I have a. A man in the congregation is a little bit older than I am who's um, you know him. He's been wanting to do some teaching.

He's taught until sunday school class. So. Um, and i've done this with other men as well in the congregation. Um, usually I will hand them a teaching topic and i'll say okay you you take the passage of scripture.

You do your study and you come back to me with an outline and then they will come back with an outline. And I will look at the outline and then we'll kind of discuss. Okay. How did you come to this conclusion?

Can you state this more succinctly? How would you describe this? Here's the theological issues that are raised by the text. How would you address this? Um, have you thought about what a possible objector might say and I give them that feedback.

They will go back and then they take that and prepare a lesson. Then when they preach the lesson, then we will meet after the lesson and i'll say okay. Here's what you did. It was good and here are the things I think you can work on here are the ways that you can improve.