Brian Ninde & Jimmy Delssantos: Why Western Christian Evangelism Needs To Change! DMW#214

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

I'm your host Greg Moore. Thanks for coming along on the ride. Thanks for sharing with a friend. Thanks for checking us out at dmwpodcast .com where you can find out more about the show. You can support the show with some snarky merch.

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Cool. Now that we got the business out of the way, boy, we got two special guests on here and I want to get right into it. Sometimes I'll do a little rambling up top, but I do want to get into it because I think we're going to have a good time.

We have Brian Nein on the show. He's a member of the Evangelism Ministry Leader of Cornerstone Bible Church. I'll try to get through that, guys. It's been a long day. We're recording at night. President of Hearts for the Lost Ministry, co-host Hearts of the Lost, the podcast.

We also have Jimmy DeLaSanto, member at Redemptive City Church Dallas. That was a church plant. Street Evangelist since 2005, co-host of Hearts of the Lost podcast and the Solacast podcast, which I started listening to years ago and I need to get back around it there.

That was one of my entry kind of reformed podcasts. I have a funny story about that, meeting him in person after about two days and looking over and going, wait a minute, you're the Solacast guy? Because I have that kind of memory.

He's a father of three daughters, grandfather of six. It's Jimmy and Brian. Brian and Jimmy, how are you guys doing?

Yeah, great. How are you doing, man?

Doing good. Glad to be here.

Good.

Great. Excited.

Met you guys in person down at the White Calvinism Conference. I love what you guys were doing with the podcast down there. I was down there with this podcast and wanted to get you guys on because I've been checking out some of the videos, some of the podcasts that you do, and it's just really, really good stuff.

Like I said, right there in the intro too, I think we were at a B-dubs and Jimmy said something about Solacast and I was like, wait a minute, you're the Jimmy from Solacast? I was a little awestruck just because, you know, I mean, how long have you been doing that podcast?

It feels like I got on that like three or four years ago. When did you start that, Jimmy?

In 2018. So five years.

Okay. So it was probably four years ago then because I have no concept of time since I've had children. Something could have happened last month. It feels like five years ago, something five years ago feels like last month, who knows anymore, right?

And I'm sure you get that too with children and grandchildren, but new to the Hearts of the Lost podcast. But I want to talk about that a little bit too, before we get into our subject tonight. Can you guys, either one of you jump in there and tell me a little bit about the podcast?

Yeah, well, I'll go ahead and.

Start. I found Solacast as well. Jimmy and I became, we were partners at Ambassador Academy out at Ray Comfort's Living Waters, the training out in 2018. I couldn't even spell podcast. I didn't know what it was, but he kept telling me about it.

We just became fast friends talking about evangelism. Anyway, I'll fast forward a little bit. I got involved with Hearts for the Lost, the ministry, and Jimmy was coming up to Indianapolis to check out one of our events and Solacast said, hey, why don't you come on our podcast to talk about evangelism with Hearts for the Lost?

So I did. Jimmy and I pretty much took over the show just because we can't stop talking about evangelism. I think it was Pastor Chris or Henry, I can't remember, maybe both, said you two guys need to start a podcast to talk about evangelism.

So their birth, Hearts for the Lost, the podcast, November of 21. So it still had a Solacast flair. Jimmy's on Solacast. I love those guys. I pumped them as much as possible. We're all part of the Bar Podcast Network.

So it kind of gives a little background of he and I and how this all came together. That's cool. And I'm glad.

You're part of Bar. I've said it many times on the podcast. Dwayne Atkinson jumped on and messaged me a week after I started the podcast. And he goes, I love what you're doing, going big places, anything I can do to help.

Let me know. Help set up my merch store and all kinds of stuff. He's just and we still thought he was just on a few months ago. Still talk to this day. Four years.

Later. A good dude. You're on a good network for sure. Thank you. Go ahead, Jimmy. No, I'm just.

Saying thank you. I think that, you know, being part of the Bar Podcast Network, we always get noticed for that because Dwayne's got a repertoire of a bunch of good podcasts out there that talk theology.

So glad to be part of the Bar Podcast Network. Awesome. I really like what you guys.

Are doing. If you're listening to this right now or watching it, go check out their podcast. I'm going to link everything up in the description below so you'll be able to click on everything that they're doing and find them anywhere.

They're on socials as well. So let's get into this because, you know, you sent over some subject stuff and I sent some stuff back. I said, yeah, I think that's great because I haven't touched on it in a while, but it's still a problem in Western Christianity, which is church versus entertainment.

I wanted to get into a little bit who is church for the center of the believer. There's still debate on that. And then what does evangelism look like, especially within reform circles? Sometimes we can see a lack in evangelism.

You know, I attended an AG church for three years, a very conservative one. But at the same time, man, they were all about evangelism, missions, missions, missions, right? That's Assemblies of God are really about that.

They kind of brag about how many millions and millions of dollars they give to missions. And sometimes in reform communities, we can find maybe a lack of evangelism or maybe that's like a stereotype because I don't know if I found it so much as I hear other people outside of the reformed kind of theology circles label us as that.

And I go, I don't know, man, I know a lot of guys that are street preaching that are reformed, that are evangelizing missions. So I want to talk about that as well, too. But let's start at the top. Brian, church versus entertainment.

What's going on in Western Christianity, man? I've been harping on this for 15 years and it's not getting any better. We're running businesses instead of churches. We're entertaining. We got smoke machines.

We got rock bands like what's up?

Dude, I think it culminated in all the Super Bowl memes that we saw with Bibles getting kicked off the stage, Garth Brooks concerts. I think one pastor was riding the ball like what's your name? The wrecking ball.

Anyway, it is just absolutely entertainment for the goats, no doubt. And I do believe one of the main reasons is people just don't evangelize, right? They don't do the biblical model of go be my witness, go make disciples, right?

It's littered all throughout scripture and how the church acted and should act. Now it just seems to be, let's just put on, like you said, the biggest show on earth, bring in the animals, get everybody excited and try to win them with coolness and worship leaders with man buns and flannel shirts and skinny jeans.

And again, just trying to entertain them with anything possible to get them in. And then I guess whatever you get is what you win them with, right? So I see a bunch of churches, unfortunately, going down that path.

And that is one of the things that Hearts for Loss, one of its mission statements is we will go to any church in the country for free and do an event to try to help teach and get them excited and equip and educate them on how to go out in their communities and witness and proclaim the gospel and pray for folks and do it the old fashioned biblical way to go out to community.

And again, step out outside of those Sundays or after Sunday's over in the afternoon till the next Sunday. What are we doing throughout the week to go out and proclaim the gospel, love on our neighbors, and just, again, proclaim Christ crucified?

So I think it's a massive problem. But again, when you don't biblically evangelize like we're supposed to, they have to rely on manly methods or manly worldly ways to get people in the door. And that's.

What they're trying to win them with. I'm going to step out on a limb here and maybe go from the other perspective is this. People will heap up teachers to tickle their itching ears. They want pastors like Joel Osteen.

They want pastors like Stephen Furtick. They want pastors to tell us smooth things, right? And yeah, you'll get a Joel Osteen fill up a stadium full of people that aren't really repentant. They just want to hear this news that tells them you can be whatever you want to be and not have any consequences that go through it.

Our message is different. Our message is the gospel, the true gospel that Jesus Christ came, God in human flesh, to live a perfect life and die a horrid death on the cross as a payment for those that would believe on his name.

And that message isn't the popular message, right? So what you have and what Brian was just saying is that you have those men like Joel Osteen that will give the people what they want and what they want is to be tickled.

And so this is the issue. That's why it's become such a farce in the entertainment world, this whole thing. Brian, I saw that video of that pastor dressed in a ref's outfit going across the stage on a wrecking ball to the song by Miley Cyrus, something about the wrecking ball.

I don't listen to Miley Cyrus. I don't know all her music. I just know that when I saw that, I was like, okay, that's a farce.

You're not a Miley Cyrus fan? This interview is over.

Yeah, we do need to pray for it. And one last thing about that whole church versus entertainment, we've lost sight of what the church actually is, right? And this is the bare bones people. And I mentioned this before, people have changed the church, the word church to be a verb.

Let's do church or let's have church as opposed to being the church that does the one another, the love one another, the love one another, to support one another, to encourage one another, to build one another's up.

And the reason that we have the gifts that we've been given is for one another, to help each other through this life and grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to give us strength, but also he's given us the church to build each other up and be a community.

So when you have these small churches that are family-like, the kind of church that I go to, you have a community, a family, right? And this is what I found to be the difference because I did grow up in...

You said the AG churches a minute ago, Greg. That's a lot like what I grew up in, the charismatic Pentecostal churches. I grew up in that environment and it did not, it felt like they were leaning all toward the entertainment thing that we see in so many big churches.

And so that's, well, I got a lot to say on the subject. Well, yeah. So let me interject.

Two points real quick. And you tell me if you guys agree. What Brian was saying about make disciples too, and I've said it before on the podcast, and we actually have a shirt on our website, Shameless Plug, that says less pastors, more disciples, right?

And meaning everyone gets to be a pastor now. You're a youth pastor, family pastor, assistant pastor. You're an administrative pastor. Everyone's an evangelism pastor. Everyone's a pastor, but there are no disciples.

You're not making any disciples and making disciples is very, very hard work because one, you come alongside someone, you live their life, you train them. You're in the valleys with them. Yes, you're on the mountaintops with them as well, but it is a real thing.

It is a giving up of self to disciple someone and someone to become a disciple. And we don't like that. That's not fun. It's a lot of hard work. And then to what Jimmy said too, I agree with you. Most people want to hear exactly what their itching ears want because it's easy and entertainment is fun and repenting is not fun.

But I would submit that we know that the gospel cuts to the heart, right? We know that the true gospel goes forth. And when that happens and there's true repentance and you understand church as people and not a verb, church as supporting one another in the body of Christ.

And when you're on your knees, repenting and asking for forgiveness and understanding who God truly is and seeing him in that light and his character and his justice and mercy and love and wrath and all those things, I submit that the people who are just settling for entertainment are missing out on a lot.

Now, I'm not saying you're missing out on fun because sometimes this walk can be, you know, it can be rough, right? And we weren't promised nice things and nice cars and money when we follow Christ, we take up our cross.

But there's a piece that surpasses all understanding. There is something that when he replaced my heart of stone with the heart of flesh and I understood that in my hard times, his sovereignty was the soft bell on which I laid my head.

There is something there that can never be replaced with a wrecking ball and a great Christmas show and a fog machine and all these things. So these people are being deceived. They're giving up the actual true gospel of healing and love and mercy.

And look, I'm not that guy that's just out there always talking about Jesus loves everyone. No, come as you are. No, his love is conditional. It's not unconditional. Let's get that right. There are conditions to it.

Repent, right? Be baptized, all those things. I just look at it and I go, how sad is that? Because they're really, you have these hordes of people, like you said, stadiums full and they're not even experiencing one, the true gospel and two, how God can reconcile you to him in such a beautiful way.

And I just find it, I find it so sad because in Western Christianity, we have gone full throttle with this. And now for 50 years, Tom Asko was on the program last year. And I asked him a question about something and he said, well, that's because there hasn't been any true preaching in pulpits in the majority of churches for the last 50 years.

And I couldn't agree more. Are you guys kind of tracking with that when you look at Western Christianity, evangelicalism as a whole, not saying everyone, because there are pockets of it. And I believe all three of us go to churches that truly honor and serve and love Christ.

But do you guys kind of see that across Western.

Christianity as well? Yeah, absolutely. And I think we kind of picked on the easy targets early on and you mentioned it, Greg, in the repentance piece, but let's take the squishy middle, right? Not the ones that are doing the entertainment, but the ones that aren't preaching on sin being sin or repentance and letting them live in their poo or whatever they're walking in, right?

Not calling them out or being a Nathan prophet and saying, Hey, you're the man in that story, dude. You know, let that whole common repentance and that whole hard sanctification walk. Like you talked about the discipleship of having someone maybe try to kill sin that they're living with or need to kill.

So it's that whole piece of not just, again, the obvious ones, but even that, I call it the squishy middle of folks that, again, you talk about the itching ears or talking about what people think they want versus what they need.

They need the gospel. They need repentance. They need forgiveness of their sin. And that's the A number one thing with the gospel. The gospel is the only thing that provides the answer for that. So yeah, I would definitely see it.

Yeah. Well, Brian calls a swishy middle. I would, I would, I would man, I just heard this sermon yesterday. My pastor preached on he's going through a few past a few sermons before we get to resurrection Sunday, which he would say we're not required to celebrate that.

But as you know, as those that are believers in the RPW, the regular principle of worship he's just going through because the calendar kind of gets us that way. And he was talking about Pontius Pilate and he called him at one point unconcerned.

And what he said about Pontius Pilate was, was this, that while he found no guilt in Jesus Christ because of the people, because of the pressure of the people, just to appease them, he gave them over.

He gave Jesus over to be crucified. And this was his, this was his sin, right? Because he found no guilt in the man. And this, the same thing that we find with that squishy middle that Brian's talking about, they're unconcerned.

They're unconcerned about, about the truth of the gospel, about sending those out. And you know what? This is their sin that they won't even speak to people about the truth of the gospel, that they just want to live in their little bubble and say, you know what?

I'm just going to live this Christian life for myself and not try to spread it out and not try to go out there and try to bring people in. And I remember pastor Robert Castillo, one of my pastors from my previous church Ecclesia, he mentioned this.

There's no, there's no call in the, in the Bible to turn goats into sheep. That doesn't happen. All we're doing when we go out to evangelize is bringing sheep home. We're, we're bringing those lost sheep.

We're gathering the sheep back to, to, to the father. And it's interesting because there's a lot of churches out there unconcerned with that endeavor, right? It's a social club for the most part. And so when they come on Sundays if they're not going to those churches that, that preach those itching ears, they're still not preaching repentance.

They're still not preaching faith in Jesus Christ. They come and they do their hour and then they're gone for the rest of the week. They've done their duty and then they're gone and doing something else.

And the Western church, that's prevalent in the, in the Western church. There are few who find that path to life. Broad is the way that leads to destruction. Many, many go thereby.

Yeah. You know, the country club church for the last 50 plus years in Western Christianity has led to all sorts of things. And I would submit, and people can argue with me on this, is when you don't preach repentance and confession, as the Bible tells us to, two families, one, you have men that are leaving church unrepentant and without confession.

And I think men, even before women, need that more as the heads of their families, the head of the household, as fathers, they need to have corporate confession and the elders and their pastors saying, what do you need to confess of this week?

What do you need to turn away from and turn to Christ? And when you have that not happening in the majority of churches for 50 plus years, what do you have? You have the women, then step up and lead. We feminized the church.

We now have entertainment trying to bring people in. So that way, you know, the women are the decision makers in the house because they want to be entertained. And then people go, why can't, what's going on in America?

Why can't we figure out what a woman is and what a man is? Well, you didn't even tell men to confess for the last 50 years and repent. We're not to the point to where men can be pregnant. What did you expect was going to happen?

I lay the blame on the culture today, squarely on that squishy middle, squarely on not preaching the word of God from the pulpit for decades. And now the church is going, Oh, what are we doing? How do we react to this culture?

And it's like, well, this is the judgment. This is the judgment we've seen. We've seen in Israel all the time in the old Testament, right? We would see how they would, they would, they would abandon the precepts and the laws of God.

They would fall into sin. God would bring judgment in different ways. I look at it and say, this is a natural order of things. And I'm not going Pat Robinson on you guys and going, Oh, that hurricane was the judgment of God.

No, I'm saying there is a principle to sin. There will be consequences. God will not be mocked. Right. And I think we're in that faith. The good news is, is the God's word doesn't go void. So I think we're in a period too, to where Stu and I'll stop talking here in a minute.

Stupidity is not a good long-term plan. So, and we are headed in fast towards the cliff. I think we're going to see a resurgence of, and we saw it even in COVID of some churches being shuttered and shut down that were just a social club anyway.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again. The church always thrives under persecution and we're refined under persecution. And I think we're going through that now and I'm kind of excited for the future.

I'm very optimistic about it. What about you, Brian? Do you think you're optimistic about evangelism and churches and kind of maybe the dying off of entertainment churches, or do you think this is.

Something we're going to keep seeing for quite a while? I think so. I see a trend. I still think we've got to work cut out, right? Not only stupidity, but we need to get rid of the timidity and passivity.

And we need to have men step up and be men, right? And lead, like you said, not only in the families, but also in our churches and also speaking out to other churches. But I think we can call that out, be that Nathan prophet, even to the church community.

But again, not just doing it, but doing it biblically, right? Not just going out and like you said earlier, Jesus loves you and has a perfect plan for your life and blah, blah, blah, right? No, no. Let's go back to how Jesus did it.

Let's have the reformers did it. We preach the law and the gospel. Let's see how we've sinned or you've sinned against a holy and righteous and perfect God. And you have no hope without him. And with only that true mediator, Christ crucified, you even have a hope.

You need to repent, put your faith and trust in Christ alone. That pure gospel taken to the streets, taken inside of our, even our walls, right? We got to stop assuming that everybody shows up on Sunday is born again, regenerated believers, right?

Let's keep practicing and proclaiming the gospel, uh, even, even in our halls, but it's specifically out when we go out to dinner in our families, when we go to school, when we go to work, um, when, wherever we are in a community, wherever God's called you at that time.

Um, let's just, let's just make that the forefront and yeah, then revival will happen. When again, Christ is proclaimed and we're proclaiming again, the true biblical gospel and not that, whatever that other stuff's called.

Um, that's just not biblical.

Yeah. And I would just have to say, Brian, I, and I'll, Jimmy, I'll let you jump in here, but I have to say that I, I witnessed you at that, uh, Buffalo wild wings. Uh, we, we have about eight or 10 guys, maybe more than that sitting around Buffalo wild wings.

We're joking with the waitress. She's having a good time or, you know, being lighthearted. And then towards the end, you said, is there anything I can pray for you? Or, and she went, she was kind of taken aback.

And, but then boy, did she offer it up? Didn't she? Right. Right. Yeah. And you said, where are you going to church? Where are you attending? What can I pray for? And you prayed right there for, he left a little card.

We all tipped her very well. Cause I'm, that's a big thing. If you go, he can go out there and witness leave a tip. Well, yeah. Okay. Christian stop being cheapskates. All right. The Lord has blessed us.

Let's bless other people. But I absolutely love that. I went, Oh, Brian has a heart for this. This is, this is what he does. Cause it was so natural. So smooth. You've probably done it many times before, but I just wanted to let people under, I'm not doing that to puff you up or, you know, make you prideful.

I'm telling people that because this is what you do. And this is, I believe what all Christians should do more.

Amen. Yeah. Amen. We had another opportunity at the burger joint couple down Saturday night, Jimmy and I, and the, and the crew went to a burger joint and Jimmy and I tag teamed, walked her through the law and the gospel, uh, gave her a Hapson and Jeffrey's church.

We've tried to plug her in and hopefully she'll come, but yeah, that you're, you're right. It's just got, it should be like breathing right in and out. We should breathe in and out. Go make, go be my witness, go make disciples.

It just, it should just happen. Not to always be this orchestrated event. Okay. We're going to go downtown tonight. I'm not saying not do that. I do that all the time, but wherever we're walking in life, look for opportunities.

Andrew Rapport always talks about be, get really good at transitioning normal conversations to the gospel. It can be done in any conversation if you're intentional about it. And it's fun to do.

And I'm just, I'm just picturing, uh, Jimmy and Brian, these two, just, just some light dinner conversation, law and the gospel. We walked her through that over fries.

She was there and off the table. But as we got into it, I was looking at her like, do you want to go put those down? She was like, no, I'm listening to what you're saying. So she listened to the entire thing.

It's an interesting thing. I want to go back to your question that you had a minute ago, though, I have, you were saying you're optimistic and I'm just going to say this. And I, I think this is going to be a valid, um, Stephen Furtick, I think went to a decent theological seminary, right?

Yeah. He's got, I think it was, if it was DTS halfway decent. All right. Well, here's what I would, here's what I would say about Stephen Furtick. He's gotten a taste of this. So the false teachers aren't going to stop.

They've gotten a taste of this, of this, how much money they can make by tickling each itching ears. But God is in control. God is sovereign. And my optimism comes from this, the true church, those that are his elect are going to come to him.

Right. And we have the opportunity to be a part of that, right? What he's given us as a command to go out and share the good news with, with all those. And so those those that come in, we get a chance to disciple, we get a chance to build up, we get a chance to teach what we've, what we've learned over our years of evangelism.

By the way, we have mentioned this evangelism is a good place to learn theology, right? And just, just this last week when I was out in the streets, I got this one girl that started, I got another question for you.

And another question, she had all these theological questions and it was the, it was the streets and it was, it was pastor Chris Hernandez with his reform theology. They got me to a place where I could answer her questions in such a way that she was like, okay, I thought I was going to stump you, but you're, you're doing pretty good at this.

And it's, it's, it's this, it's this idea that if we put into practice the things that he's, that he's told us to do to make disciples, to go in, to go and be our, my witnesses in all the earth, theology grows from that.

We, we begin to study our Bibles because we're, we're obeying his commands. If we obey his commands, he will, he will give us grace and he'll give us the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through his word so that we might know how to answer everyone that might have an objection to our faith.

And so I think, I think that's an important thing. I just, I just, this last thing, I, I've told Brian about this, but I had someone very close to me told me that the, the Bible was written by men to control other men.

And I, at that moment, didn't have an answer for that objection, but I do today. Here's, here's my answer to that objection. Have you looked at men today out in the world? They need to be controlled. I need a shepherd.

I need a shepherd to guide me and to keep me in control. Right. And so I, in any case, when this is the growing of our theology, because we hear things like that, that may in a moment stump us for that moment.

And then we just grow in our theology. I'll never have a non-response to that objection anymore. And that's how you learn, right? I mean,.

Be like me studying and reading books about weightlifting, but if I'm never get on a bench and actually start, you know, light and build up, you're never, I mean, it's the same thing. People will say, oh, I just don't know enough.

I'm going to wait till I, you're never going to know enough. First of all, and Andrew Rapport taught me a long time ago, Jimmy as well. I don't know is a perfectly good answer. So you can't answer any question, but you go back and read it and it does sharpen your study to come out.

You're not going to get that stump again. But man, I've said it before, and I'm going to say it again. One thing I do see in the street, we need a lot more theology on the street because a lot of folks will go out street witnessing and that shouldn't even be out there that have really poor theology.

So we need to get that, but then vice versa. I got a lot of theologian friends that never evangelize. So how do we bring this together? Right. To get better theology out there, but also let's get this, this rock and rolling, but you're never going to get to the point of a Greg Moore, right.

Or, or, or, or Andrew Rapport or, or James White. I threw you in there, bro. Uh, yeah, but no,.

You're not going to throw me in with those names. What are you doing, bro, man? You're going to,.

I've always said evangelism is going to do two things. It's going to change your prayer life and change your, your Bible study and your memorization, right? You're not just memorized verses to be smart.

You're memorizing, memorizing verses to use them in conversation. And like Jimmy says, I don't need the address, right? I need to always talk about a chapter verse and cite the address, but at least use that and, and, and whittle that word.

Uh, and the authority of that word in our conversation, man has power and it won't return void. Right. So, um, yeah, I just think it does. We need better theology on the street, but man, I'm calling out all my other theologians.

Are you out witnessing? Are you discipling other folks to share the faith in the.

Public square? Okay. So really quick, I have to jump in and I got to pick on our, uh, Calvinistic reform folk real quick. Cause we've been picking on the evangelicals, uh, all night. Uh, you are absolutely right, Brian.

And I, I would, I would say to you that what you two do to theologically sound guys who study and find themselves approved and go out and actually meet people in the, in the street and answer questions on the fly much harder and takes a lot more guts than two guys sitting around arguing over a confession or over a theological book who are starting at the same point of both believing.

Okay. And what they do is that's safe for them. And we have a lot of guys in the reform camp that are very book smart and they've read a lot of books and they can recite creeds and confessions and they can split hairs on baptism and all kinds of stuff, but they have never gone out in the street and actually walked up to a person who's really living life and has a real life question about the gospel.

Oh yeah. Well, if God, you know, loves me or wants me to repent or wants me to turn to him, why did this happen? Or why this, or what about that? Or you know what I mean? Like real, real questions that they really want to know.

That's the hard thing to do. So I'm piggybacking off of you. I say piggy. Every time I say piggyback, I got ruined by some woke liberal who was on a zoom meeting with me and she said, I want a veggie back off of that.

I don't want to insult the pig. True story. So now that has been, it's drilled into my mind every time I say piggyback that that crazy leftist has got in there. And I laughed at myself. So and I'm not saying it, I won't piggyback off of Brian and go, you're absolutely right.