Should I choose to watch The Chosen, part 2, a conversation with Dallas Jenkins -Podcast Episode 136

Why The Chosen Began as a Storytelling Project

Welcome to the Got Questions podcast. A few episodes ago, we had a kind of team conversation about the TV series, The Chosen, was we've been receiving a lot of questions about it. And actually in the YouTube comments, someone suggested, well, why don't you interview Dallas Jenkins?

And I was like, I would love to. Executive producer, the man in charge of The Chosen, I would love to ask him some of these questions, but I didn't know Dallas Jenkins, but turns out with the two degrees of separation between almost any Christian in the world, I know someone who knows Dallas, and so we're able to make it work.

So Dallas, welcome to the show today. Yeah, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. And I appreciated your conversation. And I think it's just so healthy. I wanted to ask you a few questions, both from like us as the Got Questions staff have about The Chosen, and also some questions that we've been receiving.

Because there's a lot of misinformation out there about The Chosen, about your goals, why you're doing things the way that you are. And so I really wanna even ask some of the questions that I don't hear people asking that I think would be more helpful to help people to understand what exactly The Chosen is all about.

But let's start off with, okay, what led you to do The Chosen? Why is the series structured and even designed the way that it is? Well, several years ago, almost a decade, working at a big church in Chicago, and for our Good Friday services, I would every year do either a short film or a vignette about, usually centered around the crucifixion, because we were celebrating Good Friday.

Not celebrating it, but honoring it. And it was the concept of telling stories of Jesus rooted in the gospels, but coming at it from a different perspective, but not changing the story, not trying to say something new.

I mean, I'm a conservative evangelical. The church I was part of was the same. And so we have tremendous respect for God's word. But when you can tell these stories from a different perspective and explore a little bit more some of the cultural context and historical context that isn't implicitly in the gospels, it really opens things up.

I mean, we would see it over and over again, people having these aha moments that weren't replacing scripture, but were in fact enhancing their experience with it, like a supplement to scripture in some way, similar to what a sermon can do or what a Bible study can do.

And so we just saw that happening over and over. And every time I did it, I was so, like I've been a believer as long as I can remember, and I've heard the stories hundreds of times. I've memorized Bible verses.

I was an Awana kid. I mean, I've been steeped in it. And yet even myself in my forties, I would get so kind of re-excited, re-energized, going, oh my goodness, I guess I didn't realize that when Jesus said this, that in the context of that time, that would have had even more resonance for those people.

Those kinds of things are really fascinating. So long story short, I did a short film about the birth of Christ from the perspective of the shepherds back in 2017. And when I was making it, that's when I was like, every time I do these short films, even 18 minutes long, which is what The Shepherd was, I feel like I'm exploring more about this story than I've ever seen.

What if I could do that for a long time? Like there's never been a multi-season show about Christ. There's been movies, there's been miniseries. They always go from Bible verse to Bible verse, miracle to miracle.

There's very little context, very little emotional connection, like what you'd normally get when you watched a movie or TV show. And so I thought, you know, man, the thing about multi-season shows that are really great is you can really follow these characters season to season, episode to episode, and really take the time to develop some of these stories that in the Gospels, they don't take as much time because the Gospels, kind of the point of the Gospels is Jesus's greatest hits to prove that he's the Messiah.

And whereas a TV show has a little bit of a different goal and purpose. And so that's when the idea started to come. And now at the time, I was coming off of a huge career failure. There was no one lining up around the block to do a project with me.

But once I got that short film out to the world and offered people the opportunity to crowdfund invest into the show, it just took off. Something I think resonated about that short film in people's hearts and minds, and it's carried through to the show.

Artistic License in a Historical Drama About the Gospels

So one of the things we talked a lot about in our episode a couple of times was artistic license. That anytime you're portraying anything in the Bible, you have to use artistic license, even if you're just talking about the background or what the people look like, the clothes they wear, because the Bible does not specifically say, doesn't give us these types of details.

But I think one of the criticisms that I've heard a lot about The Chosen is that you use a lot of artistic license. There's scenes that are portrayed that are not in the Bible at all. So what is your perspective on the appropriateness of artistic license, how much you can use in portraying biblical accounts?

Yeah. Well, it's a really nuanced answer, and it's also a really nuanced question because I think you have to start with this premise. I'm making a show about the people of first century Galilee. I wouldn't necessarily call The Chosen a Bible show.

Now, that may sound scary to some people, but I think to some critics, they might actually say, yeah, that's true. That's more accurate. Don't call it a Bible show because this isn't the Bible. And I would say, you're right, it's not the Bible.

The Bible is the Bible. The Bible will never change. The Bible is God's inerrant word, and I'm not trying to change it. Your Bible has not changed since The Chosen came out. The Chosen is a TV show, a historical drama based on the people of first century Galilee that uses the Bible as its primary source of truth and inspiration.

But I mean, I'll take you one step further from your question. I would say not only is there a lot of artistic license, I would say the vast majority of the show is artistic license. I would say as high as 95%.

I mean, if you think about it, I mean, Jesus never even said hello in Scripture. I mean, so every time that we have scenes even taken from the Bible, there's stuff at the beginning of them, sometimes stuff in the middle, sometimes stuff at the end that isn't directly from Scripture.

So I think that both fans and critics of the show need to recognize this is not a Bible show because I think once you start to see it as that, then anything that we add now feels like a violation. So I'm comfortable because from moment one of the show, when you first turn on episode one, the first thing that comes up and it says, this is based on the Bible, uses it as a truth and inspiration.

However, we changed some things like dates and locations and stuff like that. We've added some artistic license and viewers are encouraged to read the Gospels. Like right up before you watch a frame of it, I tell you, read the Gospels.

My wife gained a little bit of popularity for a comment she made at a public event where she told a story of, I'm not gonna get into the whole story, but where people were smuggling Bibles into Iran and they offered to also preach.

And the person who was receiving the Bible said, no, Bible preach. And he was saying, the Bible is enough for us. We don't need your preaching. And I would agree. I would agree with that. And that's where we stand when it comes to the show.

So from the beginning, I've said, this is a show based on the people of first century Galilee. I don't ever want to violate the character or intentions of Jesus in the Gospels. I think anything that we portray needs to filter through the category of plausibility.

Is this plausible? And once we've kind of filtered everything through that lens, then I'm comfortable doing that. Now, there are some people, I know this is a long answer to your question. There are some people who don't believe that anything should be portrayed that isn't directly in the Bible.

And those people have the right to that opinion and we're never gonna agree and they're never gonna watch the show. That's perfectly fine. I would tell you that right off the gate. I mean, the very first episode, I don't think there's anything from scripture other than the fact that you see Matthew as a tax collector, Simon as a fisherman, and at the end we see Mary Magdalene being healed of demons, which is in the scriptures.

But everything else, this is a historical drama. Popular YouTuber, Mike Winger, I think called it fan fiction. And I think that's a fair analysis. So I think as long as we know what we are and as long as the audience knows what we are, I think that we're okay.

But there is gonna be a contingent that's just not comfortable with any artistic license. In which case I would say, all right, great. There's plenty of videos out there now that take a literal reenactment verse by verse account of the gospels.

And that's great. There are a few of those. Some of them, as I'm sure you know, are better than others. And yeah, even in the ones where Jesus, the actor portraying Jesus in those doesn't say anything that's not a direct quote of scripture.

Even in those, if you really look at it, there's a lot of artistic license in terms of what is going on and how things look. How he said it, even his tone of voice. We can't know any of those things. So it's interesting to see how, I don't think people truly think through when they criticize artistic license, how impossible it'd be able to do any video-based reenactment of anything in the Bible without high percentage of it being artistic license.

Although I would say, to be fair to them, I would say that there is a difference between, I mean, you're absolutely right and you're making a great point, but I think there is a difference between, I think, clothing and cinematography.

And then I think what people get really concerned about is the words of Jesus. Anytime you're putting words into the mouth of the Son of God that you don't know that he said, again, I would argue, I'm not putting words into the Son of God's mouth because Jonathan isn't the Son of God and the show is not the Bible.

This is an artistic rendering of the stories. And we know that. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Now, there are some people who go even further and who say, I mean, there's a couple of popular bloggers and thought leaders who've said an image of Jesus, any image of Jesus is inherently wrong.

I mean, a painting, anything that God gave us words, he didn't give us pictures. We don't get a clear description of what Jesus looked like. Now, of course, I heard one person say, anytime God didn't want us to see Jesus, he wanted us to hear his words.

And I'm like, well, all the people who met him must have had a really difficult time because they saw his face. But yeah, I think there is a contingent just doesn't think any rendering of Jesus at all is good because of the second commandment.

And I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, but I think there's definitely a spectrum of artistic license and a spectrum of comfortability with that. Yeah, no, that's interesting, because truly that was the next question I was gonna ask you, because I have a good friend who, for her, she can't watch any film whatsoever where Jesus is portrayed, because then in her mind, that's how she always pictures Jesus.

And for me, that's not an issue at all. I mean, I've watched enough different Bible films and I've watched both seasons of The Chosen, and I have never in my mind pictured Jesus looking like the actors who have portrayed him.

Although that's hard to do when very consistently portrayed looking a certain way. But I don't think if I were to meet the actor who plays Jesus in The Chosen, I would not be like, oh, it's Jesus. Like, no, it's, yes.

But I understand those who have that problem. And so ultimately, what would you say is the, how do you respond to those who say you shouldn't portray Jesus at all because it's a violation of the second commandment?

The Second Commandment and Portraying Jesus

Yeah, so I think there's two questions. One is the second commandment idea, which is specifically about worshiping idols, worshiping graven images, worshiping other, anything that represents a God or God, even God himself, shouldn't be worshiped.

I don't know a single person. We've heard from literally millions of people about the show, including people who are obsessed with it and who believe that it has taken them closer to God. Not a single person has ever said they're worshiping Jonathan Rumi or worshiping The Chosen or worshiping a scene from The Chosen.

That would be wrong, obviously, obviously. But the commandment is about worshiping an idol, not about looking at a piece of art. I just think that they're two completely different subjects. And I think that the danger of worshiping a piece of art is inherently real.

And anyone who does that or who thinks that that might be a struggle for them should for sure be cautious. I just don't know anyone who literally thinks when I'm worshiping on Sunday morning, you know, singing, I'm worshiping The Chosen or I'm worshiping the painting that I have in my home of Jesus.

I've just never met anyone like that. Now, I remember, what's funny is that I visited Israel and there's the, I'm blanking on the name of it, the big cathedral where Jesus' Golgotha is. It's owned by this church that has like four different denominations represented.

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre? Yes. I was very uncomfortable in that place. And because there were some people who felt to me like they were worshiping an object. Now, they may not have been actually worshiping, they just might've been overwhelmingly emotional because of what it represented.

I don't know, but it sure looked like worship. And I just wasn't comfortable there, felt very idolatrous. But I'm just not seeing that with The Chosen. I mean, even when people comment about how much they love the portrayal of Jesus, and even people who even think, I've heard of a few people say, I do picture some of the characters in my head.

I don't know that that's inherently bad. I don't think that that means that they're now worshiping the actor. I've just never heard anything close to that. So there's that. So yeah, my point is, the two part point of it is that the second commandment idea, for sure we agree on, but I just don't think that that's what The Chosen is doing.

And I think some people who say the actual episodes themselves are inherently a violation of the second commandment. I think that's a stretch. I think that's starting to put, to project onto people something that you don't know is in their heads.

And I think it's good to give a warning, but I don't think it's good to just assume that by definition the show is doing that in and of itself. I've been to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as well, and I think I had the same, I don't know, I'd describe it as like a weird spiritual vibe almost.

It's like, ah. I totally did. I much prefer the Garden Tomb location in terms of 100%, that's so funny you say that. Yeah, I was with a group of, there were about four of us, and I was at the front of the line, and I didn't, so I didn't know how they were reacting.

And I got kind of through a line, and I got to a point, and I finally turned around, I said, can I just say this? I feel dark, I don't feel good here. And they all were like, I was gonna say the same thing, let's go, we just left.

I don't wanna besmirch anyone who loves it, or there might be good people involved, but we all felt the same kind of spiritual, not great feeling. And then we went to the Garden Tomb and had the exact opposite.

It felt like home. Here's a question I just received just recently in response to the podcast, and it was actually able to engage in a productive and edifying email conversation, which we actually didn't agree.

So that was, it was wonderful. But her concern was that the Chosen has done such an amazing job of portraying the humanity of Jesus, whether it's him being extremely tired, exhausted from a day of healing people, or him practicing the Sermon on the Mount, or other scenes that really portrays the humanity of Jesus.

Her concern was, is humanity is being portrayed so strongly to the point that you're not getting the fact that he's also deity, that he is the God-man, that he is fully God, fully man. How do you respond to that?

And part of my response was, I have no idea what your plans are for the rest of seasons of The Chosen, but so far, you're at a very early point of Jesus' ministry. The more explicit claims of deity don't really come till later.

So that was, I mean, again, I have no idea what direction you're going, but it's like, maybe think of it from where they actually are in terms of following the Gospels. So this is a really good question, and it might take a little bit of time, but I think it's really important.

The Humanity and Deity of Jesus in The Chosen

So again, there is a spectrum. We start getting into the whole hypothetic union of things. This is something that has bedeviled, no pun intended, scholars for centuries. I mean, what exactly did that look like?

And there's a group of people who love the show and who are, who love Jesus and love God's word just as much as your friend does, who actually think we go a little too far in the God deity part, because they come from the Philippians' perspective of he gave up his, you know, he did not count equality with God as something to be grasped.

And so they've said every time The Chosen has Jesus put on his God goggles, as they call it, where he knows people's thoughts, where he's, you know, walking around like Bruce Almighty, where he just, he knows everything, he's got every attribute of God, where they're like, yeah, those are my least favorite parts.

There is a spectrum of belief about, from very well-intentioned, well-meaning, God-loving, Bible-loving people, about what exactly this would have looked like. Now, specifically to her question, here's the key.

Do we say in the show that Jesus is the son of God? Yes, outright, multiple times. Does Jesus actually assert his godhood, his, like, that he is God? Yes. I mean, episode one of season two, he says, I am that I am.

I mean, he outright says it. And in that same scene, he refers to the book of Genesis as his favorite memory. I mean, he asserts, he's like, basically, I was there at creation. I mean, do we show him performing miracles all the time?

Do we show him as sinless? Yes. Do we show all of his most important, spiritually impactful, enriching, God-delivered, Father-delivered truth bombs and pieces of scripture? Yes. I mean, we show the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount.

We show him talking to Nicodemus in John chapter three and saying who he is and why he came and how he is the way to salvation in season three, which episode three hasn't been released yet, but he gives his even most explicit assertion as savior because he's talking to his hometown friends and family and is outright saying, you need me for salvation.

And they're saying, wait, we're the chosen seed of Abraham. We don't need, we don't have any spiritual debt. We, you know, and he's like, no, I'm the guy. So I understand the question that she's saying or the concern she's expressing.

For sure, we spend more time on his humanity because I believe that more hours of the day are spent in your humanity than in your deity on a practical level. So hear me out. I believe Jesus was both God and man 100 of the time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

But on a practical level, when he's eating, when he's laughing with his friends, when he's dancing at a wedding, when he's dressing a wound, how God is he in that moment practically? What does that look like?

And I would say that it's very clear in the show that Jesus is God, that Jesus is the son of God. It's also very clear in the show that he was a human being who felt everything we felt. He just didn't sin.

I think both of those things are true. I don't know how we make sense of them all totally. It's a mystery that I don't have fully unlocked, but I do believe that it would be, where I would strongly disagree is that it detracts from his deity in the show.

What I had seen over and over from people and what I've experienced myself, but I'm not gonna use myself as an example, over and over from people is that it actually makes his deity even more overwhelming.

That the creator of the universe, the son of God, the Godhead, the God-man, dressed his own wounds and cooked some food and had a mom and danced with his friends at weddings. God with us, Emmanuel, he was truly with us.

I think that's extraordinary. I think that's beautiful. I understand if someone's a little uncomfortable with it because they prefer their Jesus to be on a stained glass window, or they prefer their prayers to be more on the kind of the reverent side.

I shouldn't have said it so dismissively. I don't mean stained glass window in a dismissive way. I'm just saying, there are some people who are more comfortable with kind of a Jesus who they come to with such reverence that there's this kind of holy distance.

And I don't mean that in a negative way. And I'm great with that. That's fine. Maybe the show isn't gonna make you, maybe it's gonna be as comfortable. I just would take issue with the notion that it's detracting from his deity when we're showing his suffering and his humanity.

I don't think the Bible does that. I think the Bible leans into it just as much as the show does. Yeah, that's a great point. One of the things we've received several questions about was Jesus practicing the Sermon on the Mount.

And I mean, just to be entirely honest, my first reaction was like, huh, for some reason I had in my brain that Jesus as God could just perfectly download the perfect sermon from heaven and deliver it with no practice.

And of course, as God, he could do that. But the Bible also describes Jesus sleeping, eating, drinking, doing very human things that he also would not need to do as God. So yeah, in his humanity, I think Jesus probably would have practiced a sermon just like any preacher today would.

And several other people that I've talked to, not even trying to convince them one way or the other, have kind of come to the same realization. It's like, yeah, I actually think I agree with that. And so it's just little points like that.

It was like, Jesus was fully human. What does that actually mean, practically speaking? Right, now, I think that what people are saying is because he had so much truth already in him, he knew he's God.

He was at the right hand of the Father. I think it's for sure debatable whether or not he would have practiced a sermon or run through it or not. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm right. I'm not saying that that happened.

I'm saying I think it's certainly plausible. I don't think it's a violation of his character, but I don't know that it happened. I just also don't know that it didn't happen. What we're trying to communicate in those 10 seconds where he's kind of wrestling with the words to use, and then in the next episode where he's spending time with Matthew and trying out some different things, that honestly wasn't much about Matthew as it was about Jesus.

In fact, it was more about Matthew. Jesus was trying to teach him. He was trying to include him in the process. And Jesus even says in the scene with Matthew, of course I don't need your opinion. Of course I don't, but I am curious to know what you think because I want you to participate.

He was doing what a lot of rabbis do. They ask questions. They engage their students. But all that to say, Jesus wasn't sinning by rehearsing a sermon. He wasn't sinning by arguing with John the Baptist.

He wasn't sinning by standing on a stage. Some of these things that some people have said, Jesus would never do that. Some of those things that they're saying Jesus would never do, I'm like, how do you know that?

I don't know. He's not a sin. If I were to show Jesus sinning, that's a major problem, obviously. But what's wrong with preparing a sermon? I heard from pastors and from a lot of people who were like, that was one of the most wonderful moments of the season for me because again, it was that he experienced what we experienced.

He just didn't sin. He just didn't mess up. And I think that as long as we're staying within those bounds, I mean, you could disagree. That's fine. But I just don't see it as a salvation issue or as a heretical issue.

And I had some people say, I can't watch the show anymore. You just took all of Jesus's godness away from him. And I'm just like, out of the 16 hours of the show you've seen so far, 10 seconds of it, shows Jesus not even sinning, but it doesn't contradict anything.

And I just think we tend to get a little too precious sometimes with non-salvation, non-inerrancy issues. Yeah. So that leads well into what I wanted to ask you next. As a ministry that answers Bible questions, and we don't shy away from answering, giving our best shot at a biblical answer to tough questions, controversial issues, we receive a lot of criticism.

And I know just from us having an article on should a Christian watch The Chosen, us doing a podcast episode on it, just the criticism we've received for what, in my opinion, was our goal is to present a fairly neutral viewpoint and say, look, The Chosen isn't for everyone.

Watch an episode or two, pray for wisdom, whether this is something that God wants you to use your own discernment regarding what you watch, obviously compare with scripture, as you say before the first episode.

How do you respond to criticism? And even just on a personal level, I know how difficult it can be to not let it get to you, but how do you respond to criticism, but at the same time, not ignoring it, to try to look for what are some valid points that people are making that maybe I need to take more into account?

Responding to Criticism Without Losing Perspective

Yeah, to be honest, the latter happens less, because, and here's why, by the time the show is out there, I have gone through a pretty rigorous process. So when people say, I hope you'll reconsider that scene, or can you change this?

It's like, how lightly do you think I took this on the front end? I mean, this wasn't something we were wrestling with and then just tossed it out to the world and hoped it would go okay, and we'll see what happens.

So, I mean, I have, just in my own life, my prayer life and my relationship with my wife and my relationship with pastor friends of mine and our biblical round table, and I go through a pretty rigorous system before I'm comfortable presenting this show to the world.

So the other thing that's really important about that is that I wrestled for many years, and finally God, I think, removed from me my largest struggles with narcissism and the fear of man, as the Bible says, a desire to please, the desire to be praised, a desire for affirmation.

That was all taken away from me about five years ago, and it became a bit of a superpower, which is I truly don't care, for the most part, about the criticism or the praise, and I think that's really important too.

I can't make decisions based on avoiding criticism, and I don't wanna be affected overly by the criticisms of a stranger, but I also don't wanna necessarily be overly affected by the praise of a stranger.

Someone telling me I'm the greatest thing they've ever seen and that my show has changed their life and that I'm awesome, I mean, that happens plenty, and that doesn't impact me either. I mean, I love hearing stories of life change.

I love hearing how God is doing work, but I can't believe those headlines either, just as much as I can't get dragged down by doing a YouTube search for Dallas Jenkins heretic and seeing a bunch of videos that all talk about how I'm literally sending people to hell.

I answer to God, and to a lesser extent, my wife, and so when you get to that place where you're truly affirmed by the Lord, or at least seeking the affirmation from the Lord as opposed to man, it really makes this a lot easier.

So when it comes to handling criticism, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't affect me. I don't love it when people lie. I mean, there's lots of headlines about me that are literally just outright false. Dallas Jenkins said this, Dallas Jenkins believes this, and that kind of stuff is annoying because then I think there's well-meaning fans who sometimes get confused.

Sometimes they're coming to you going, hey, should I watch this show? Because I heard X. And I think sometimes your answer can be, well, that's not for us to decide for you. I mean, you gotta watch the show yourself.

It's totally free. So if you don't wanna give any money to it, that's fine if you wanna be safe. But I think some people overthink my role in all of this. I'm a filmmaker. I'm trying to tell the stories of the Gospels in a fresh way that doesn't disrespect or contradict or change the actual Gospel accounts.

And because of that, because I'm comfortable with that, I just can't be dissuaded by or motivated by the opinions of others. Now, on a practical level, we do get pretty active in our responses just because we believe these conversations are important.

So we're not defensive or upset or we need to prove people wrong. And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Once they've made a YouTube video, they're never gonna change their mind because they've gone public.

But I think we do try to establish what I think is a good example for how to handle, especially on social media criticism. And I think we try to communicate that we don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the work seriously.

Try to communicate that it's healthy to not respond to a social media comment as though it is something that is relevant to your heart and your relationship with God, which is supremely more important.

You can't base your mood. You can't base your decisions. You can't base the work you're doing on the comments of others. I think we wanna try to set a good example for that. That's why we do sometimes respond.

So again, this is very nuanced. This is why you guys have a whole successful and influential podcast and ministry is because you ask and answer very, very nuanced and important questions. But I think the root of it for me is just I answer to God and that's who I find my favor in.

And I wanna please him, not others. And so by the time the show comes out, I just let it go. I don't, the decision has been made. I feel good about it. I feel, I don't wanna use the word approved, but I feel like I went through the process that God wanted me to.

And the praise or the criticism just doesn't motivate me. That's a really hard place to get to, to be able to not allow criticism to affect you negatively and to not allow praise to influence you to the extent that you're seeking praise.

That's a tough place to be. And I'm not there. Years of doing this has helped me with the criticism part, but there's, I guess, words of encouragement are my love language. So no, I Yeah, me too. That's okay.

I get not relying on those things, but I'm still being blessed and encouraged by them. So I've got one last question for you, but I know people who watch this are, why didn't you ask about this or this or this?

So what we're gonna do is in the show notes and the description on YouTube, we're going to include some links to where Dallas answers some of the other big questions that I know you all are wishing I would ask him, but I didn't wanna

Sure, sure. The Mormon question, the Mormon question. Exactly. The same question you've already answered a hundred times, but I'll include links to where he responds to those. But maybe in closing, who would you say the chosen is for and who is the chosen not for?

Who The Chosen Is For and Who Should Avoid It

Well, I hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out answer, but it goes back to what I said just a minute ago, which is I don't, when I'm writing it particularly, I don't think about who it's for audience-wise because for me, it's for the Lord.

And so people will say, are you writing this so you can appeal to non-Christians? Or I think that scene doesn't appeal to Christians, it might appeal to non-Christians or it might appeal more to, non-Christians might feel excluded.

So I'm like, look, I don't think about any of that. I'm trying to be as authentic as possible to the stories and to what's plausible. And so I would say that what we've heard from people is that it's for everybody, really.

I mean, we've heard from atheists, we've heard from Hindus, we've heard from people who've said, I don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, but I like the show as a show. And also it's making me curious, it's making me want to read the scriptures.

So I believe that anyone who is interested in learning more about or seeing portrayed in an artistically compelling way, the most influential man in the history of the world, I think the show is going to be compelling to you.

And that's what we've seen. Who it's not for, I mean, that's between the viewer and God. And if you are uncomfortable, if you feel like in your relationship with God, you are prone towards idolatry, meaning you're prone towards being distracted by things other than scripture.

I do believe scripture is sufficient. I do believe that God's word is all we need for sound instruction and for discipleship and for relationship with him. So if you're in a place in your spiritual walk where you really need that to be the only thing because anything else, maybe you're prone to addiction to entertainment.

Maybe you're just so easily distracted from God's word that you just need to land in that for a period of time. Then by all means, land in that. I mean, that's vital. But I've never met anyone who doesn't benefit at some point from additional context.

It's just so difficult to just open God's word. You just pick any page and just completely get it right away. Now, there are people who've done that and who've had major supernaturally God, I'm using the wrong word, but like kind of a supernatural experience with God the Father where their salvation just becomes so clear and evident because of God just opening their eyes and removing the veil.

That happens, of course, all the time. But for the most part, most of scripture requires some context. And I do think that Bible studies and sermons and yes, the chosen can be a good supplement and a good contextualizer and a good kind of battery recharge towards a passion for Jesus.