INC Debate Review, P&P Controversy

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line starting at 333 Let's just say that things have been busy around here today and so we got started about three minutes

00:42

Well 27 minutes earlier than we announced, but I was driving in and I announced I told rich.

00:48

Okay, we're gonna go for 330 and He forgot so and and again while I was gone

00:54

I was I was a dinner up in South Dakota and somebody said you're mean to rich And I say you don't you don't you don't get to see or hear what's going on behind the window you don't get you're only getting half the story and So, but you have your you have your pity party friends out there

01:14

Who think that you know, I mean to you so that's just double grief, baby double grief

01:20

Get you on both. Oh anyway, it is good to be back here in Phoenix, especially because because I saw the picture of The snow in Rapid City that came in today and I It's not that I would have you know, it would have been really bad to see snow

01:39

It would have been sort of cool actually, but I don't want to have to fly out Of Rapid City on those little

01:46

CRJ's with snow. No, that's that's that's cool So I was just looking at Twitter and a

01:52

King James only us has joined with the INC guys To identify me as a cultist

01:57

Because I oppose cultic King James only as it was. Yeah, great. Wonderful. I do you see the what's in the background here?

02:06

I Have we haven't put this up yet, but it's uh, it's it's from p45

02:13

And this is the John 10 section and just got it and we're not sure exactly

02:19

We're gonna try to put it up there if we can But I'll have my little have a little p45 in the in the studio

02:27

That'll be good. Any of that I'll put in my office but probably in the In in here, so we'll we'll see if we can get up there without destroying everything in the process.

02:37

Okay Let's start off with what's on everybody's mind which isn't current arguments in YouTube or in the internet

02:47

Facebook We'll get to that later on Wow, what a weekend, uh, I I called that one.

02:54

I kept telling folks. This is gonna be an interesting one and I You know had been told by Nick and Conley who are the two guys in our chat channel who really know

03:09

Iglesia Ni Cristo really know what they're like and what they're about They had basically said look they they follow a script it's always the same script and Joe Ventilacion just doesn't have much freedom to go anyplace else.

03:29

So You know if you've heard him once you've pretty much Heard him, you know

03:36

That's as far as they can go they really can't change their presentation and So I knew we were going to have a lot of assumptions about Unitarianism and John 17 3 and John 14 28 and and a few of the standard subordinationists texts

03:59

That are out there. And so I get to go first I'm defending the thesis and so I just very clearly laid it out from the start

04:07

If you quote John 17 3 then you just don't even know what this subjects about did they care and notice

04:14

I said they Because one of the one of the big Criticisms that I got from INC folks immediately after the debate was

04:27

I was mocking them because I posted a picture and when I first walked in there were three tables on each side the front table a middle table

04:40

No, no No There is there's two tables in each side and then a middle table for the timekeeper the moderator

04:47

And somebody else I guess two timekeepers two timekeepers and I'm looking at this going.

04:56

I don't I'm I I don't have a team I do debates on my own.

05:02

It would be very Very strange. I've done a couple Tag team debates not very many, but I've done a few

05:13

And So I said look I don't want an empty table with chairs behind me that's distracting it looks silly

05:22

It looks like someone's supposed to be there, but they're not So the next time I came in that was gone and it was just my table and one chair on the other side

05:30

You had five guys And They came in and they started laying out

05:40

All these books with numbers on them Mainly Bibles, but there are other books, too and I'm just I'm watching this and I I can't help but sort of chuckle because it's like Just what does it even cost to ship all these books around?

06:01

I mean, they're heavy That There's something called a computer it just it's fast and it's light and it's much easier to ship and I had just never taken on an entire group before and So I took a picture of them putting you know, this library out and I was like, wow,

06:23

I've never Taken on a team with a library before. Oh, you're mocking it

06:29

I just thought it really looked strange, but in the INC mind They take that as proof.

06:36

They're right in other words If I if I had done the same thing put a bunch of people on my side put a bunch of books out

06:42

For a lot of these people. It's like oh Looks like it might be evenly matched

06:50

Evenly matched what does the number of people and how many books they have have to do with anything?

06:57

Well as a lot of us have discovered The reality is that INC folks don't listen to almost anything

07:11

They certainly Well, look, I've had a bunch of Christians say how what a waste of time shouldn't even shouldn't even waste your time going up there yeah, you got some nice pictures of Mount Rushmore, but You shouldn't waste your time going up there, you know, it's just some little

07:27

Filipino cult look they're a very large religious group in the Philippines They are a virulent cult

07:36

There are many People trapped in them. Yes, they definitely appeal to those who have very little biblical knowledge very little curiosity

07:47

But does that mean those people are worthless those though By doing this debate not only have we provided a a clear documentation of Their the fact that you can stand up to the best that they have to offer and take them on and And defeat them handily point by point but You likewise have been able to provide people

08:20

With a Resource that will encourage

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Even people there in the Philippines. We've already heard a lot from people in that in they have been greatly encouraged

08:35

To stand up to INC because they tend to be extremely aggressive there in the

08:41

Philippines and some people accuse them of violence there in the Philippines and So it was well worth it.

08:50

Not only to provide a witness to those within INC but an encouragement to Christians likewise to be a part of those who are presenting the gospel to the members of Iglesia Ni Cristo, so I Had of course seen the debates.

09:10

I knew exactly what to expect and And Got exactly what

09:16

I expected. I knew that Joe Ventilacion would would misbehave

09:22

Because it is it is the very nature of Their debating methodology to misbehave when you answer a question

09:30

They say it's not my question and then they just repeat it because they're not they're not trying to answer you ask you a question

09:36

They're not trying to clarify anything. They're not trying to advance truth This is a cult and they want to maintain the cultic thinking of the people in the group

09:46

And so there are certain phrases. There's certain points They'll repeat over and over again even if it really has nothing to do with what's being said just simply to reinforce the group think of the people within the cult and So I start off my presentation by saying you know what if you if you quote

10:07

John 17 3 It shows you don't even understand what the issues are So, what did you do? The first verse you quoted was

10:12

John 17 3 right and goes right back at it And I had already refuted.

10:18

I had already said you're going to assume Unitarianism. You can't do that didn't matter Didn't matter what

10:23

I was saying Because they don't care about a debate if you had flowcharted that thing

10:31

It would have been an just an abject disaster For the INC side, but they don't care about flowcharting and their people don't care about flowcharting and their people don't care

10:44

That they pick and choose Bible translations just simply to make their point. They don't care that on the one hand

10:52

Mr. Ventilacion will emphasize the accusative of Theos, Ton, Theon as if every accusative form has the same meaning

11:04

I was really amazed at the arguments that he was making just just Really really really really really bad but they'll use they'll focus upon the accusative form of Theos in The second clause of John 1 1 or in John 17 3 trying to make a connection between the two just based on the accusative but then when faced with Second Peter 1 1

11:37

They'll say well, we don't derive our theology from grammar We need to compare spiritual spiritual, which is a nice way of saying

11:46

I will not be held to a standard of consistency In the handling of scripture my ultimate authority is what

11:55

I'm told to believe by the leaders of Iglesia Ni Cristo and all the rest of stuff is just window dressing is what it is and so we pretty much knew what we were going to going to get and I had watched as Mr.

12:12

Ventilacion in his previous debates had utilized this horrifically poor

12:20

Form of questioning which isn't really questioning. It's just Argumentation where you you put words in the other person's mouth and say yes or no

12:28

Which again does not impress any deep thinker any person that follows logic study debate

12:34

Uh -huh is just immediately going to dismiss him out of hand but For the people who are following you around and what and just oh, it's it's mr.

12:45

Ventilacion, you know It's it's one of the leaders of INC. Oh you're you're all you want to do is to reinforce that thinking on their part and So we get into and you know, they

13:04

They have this Interesting form of debate which wasn't a bad form of debate. It was it was intriguing actually and it had more interaction

13:15

Than the formats that we normally use. I it wasn't it wasn't bad I wouldn't mind using that that format in in debates in the future might might snipe that and use it

13:28

But Would you like to come sit behind me? We could get everybody from channel to sit behind me and and sit in channel chatting

13:40

No, no, no talking because that would that would interrupt me too. I know they got to talk.

13:46

Yeah, I I know Be honest with you all the rest of you were all upset about that.

13:51

The only time I actually Was myself into everybody's talking was in that last statement because I was at the podium

13:58

Evidently a lot of the they had been quieter before but they really just got really loud because they don't care what

14:04

I'm saying They're just talking about how they're gonna but you know What what they want to emphasize and the next thing they're saying they're saying and stuff like that.

14:11

So But I twice in my closing statement said yo guys yo over here Yeah, I I know you heard him the whole time

14:22

Yeah, we will definitely we would definitely address that in any future things that guys only one person up front speaking and if you need to talk to each other write notes or You sign language or whatever, but stop with the with the hammering anyway

14:41

I knew what was going to come in the cross -examination and I for some reason

14:51

In the stuff they sent us for the Bios He said he had done seven debates seven

15:03

I Thought there had been more than that, but then I started thinking about I said, well, I have not seen more than seven I've not even seen listed more than seven might maybe seen four or five in YouTube and some of them were weren't even in English So I didn't bother looking at them seven debates and So I'm like All right

15:24

I'm not going to be run over by this guy. I know what his tactics are I'm not gonna let it happen and we didn't we didn't let it happen

15:33

I Did not let him get away with it Yes a couple of times someone has already made a gif or gif depending on how you pronounce

15:41

GIF someone's already made a gif of one of the times when

15:47

After a particularly silly question, I mean, you know Do you believe

15:53

Exodus 314 is in the Bible? Yeah Think it is.

15:59

Mm -hmm. Do you believe it? Mm -hmm. Yeah, that kind of thing is is

16:04

You know, it's self -destructive to the credibility of the person asking the questions and stuff.

16:09

But again That's only self -destructive in the minds of critical thinkers INC members are not critical thinkers.

16:17

They that they are they are warned against critical thinking and With all these groups, you know

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I've said for years and you're talking to Jehovah's Witnesses One of the things you want to try to do is to start get them to think

16:29

Critically about the claims of the society as long as they see themselves as a part of the society then any

16:36

Negative information about the society is negative information about them You have to put them in a position where they can see the society over here and themselves over here so they can analyze claims about the society well

16:48

Double down triple down quadruple down on that for the INC because the INC makes

16:53

Jehovah's Witnesses look like a bunch of liberals when it comes to the controlling authoritarianism of the of the structure and so Yeah, I I knew what was coming and as soon as he started trying to play tricks

17:10

With John 17 3 I just wouldn't let him do it and it people people go.

17:16

How are you? So, how are you so patient? I wasn't You know,

17:21

I I got the gospel in clearly three times Very clearly three different times.

17:28

I got the gospel to the people that were listening the few that were listening um, so I had that in mind and I had talked with the guys with South Dakota apologetics and Aaron Knudsen I love the

17:50

Knudsen Aaron Found out just how much work something like this is it's huge it is that's why we don't do it very often ourselves because it's just and the guy had like Was in the hospital the weekend before with bad stuff.

18:07

I mean bad stuff as in stuff that can kill you stuff and So here he is working himself to death.

18:14

And by the way, I really appreciate I let me thank all the guys including Aaron and Justin who was in a plane crash and giggles

18:24

And everybody else giggles is really excited that I gave him his own Nick He's and he makes one really mean steak.

18:34

Oh that thing was incredible Wow, I don't I don't you know, I said I'm not a steak guy

18:41

But if steak tasted like that I would be a steak guy because it was

18:46

That last time I had a steak that good was on the Mercury the first time we took her Well, they they went out on a ledge there and going with that because I told him not to I know

18:55

I know I told I told him, you know taking James White to Ruth's Chris is You may as well take him to McDonald's because it's just a complete waste of time

19:04

So well, so seeing a picture of it coming back where you know, he you love was steak

19:10

Look, that's why he made him. He made him his house. Oh, wow. So those were those were on the grill.

19:16

That's huge and The vast majority time I get steaks. It's like chewing on the bottom of shoes So I just I just even at nice restaurants, so I just don't bother that was absolutely

19:28

Incredible. It was just like Ate the whole thing just mmm. It was good.

19:33

It was good. So anyways, all the guys did it did a Tremendous job. They put a lot of work in organized or well

19:40

Working with INC is not easy There were all sorts of dances that had to be done and and everything else and so I'm very thankful for them and then the need that they found a way to My heart and it wasn't taking me out to see

19:58

Mount Rushmore, which was fun You know if we hadn't gotten to go the weather it'd be weather was beautiful then it was like 74 and now it's a half a foot of snow but They put a concept to rower in my hotel room

20:18

How how cool was that I got to row 35 Thousand meters this weekend and I did eight laps around the hotel, which may

20:28

I sound like much this hotel is huge Milo Hotsambular has performed at this hotel.

20:36

That's how big it is. That's how big it is. Yeah That's big time. I was

20:41

I he is Milo I debated in the same room where Milo Hotsambular has performed that I May need to put on my we may need to update my my thing on on the website about you know debated in mosques and 24 books and Debated in the same room as Milo Hotsambular.

21:03

I think that That might be the biggest thing to add in there. So anyway

21:11

They did a great job and we had talked Beforehand and of course they want they and as well as Nick and Conley with trueeglacia .org

21:23

They just want to make sure this debate would be something that would be a great tool in the future and would present the

21:35

Gospel to the members of this religious group So that's in the back of my mind so on the one side

21:43

I want to communicate the gospel I want to To do so passionately

21:50

But the same time we have a person here denying the very center of the Christian faith we have a false teacher who's twisting the scriptures and as Is always the case

22:03

What you have to? What you have to balance and come to You know a middle position on is how do you remain?

22:17

Uncompromising firm clear gracious gospel oriented. How do you do that?

22:24

I Can only answer to the Lord for how I do it. I can't say it someone else has to do it this way

22:32

But I I tried and And when people say how can you be so patient with someone like that I I wasn't being patient The what you interpret as patience is simply my prioritizing what

22:48

I want to do in that debate and only rarely Did I just simply?

22:54

Smack him down Because that would get in the way of what I really wanted to accomplish. I did and There are some places where people have caught there a couple places there's once where he had just said something completely inane about Jesus's statement to the thief on the cross today.

23:12

You'll be as in paradise. Well Well, what's he right then in paradise? No, it's in the future tense

23:18

You know, it was just really weird and I sort of looked out the audience went Well that that's already floating around the internet that one little thing has been turned into a gif or gif or whatever you call it and I'm just sitting there going and there there are probably four or five of those because You listen to the questions that he was asking and so many of them were utterly absurd on any scholarly level they're just utterly absurd and So Please don't

23:51

Please don't point to me as a paragon of patience. I'm not That's self -control

23:59

Based upon the priority that I want this whole debate to function in this way so Anyway, so I I do have a

24:16

I fired up the thing I Fired up the the thing. I'm sending you a

24:22

I'm sending I'm sending you chrome and I'm sending you something towards the very end of the debate and And So I'd like you to possibly can you

24:34

Zoom in on that window or something like that. There's a lot of things that we could play from the debate and I'm hoping that eventually

24:44

Now maybe somebody can tell me but short right after the debate was over a glacian

24:50

Acosta took the link to it down Have they reestablished it? because one possibility was they

24:58

You know when you what I'm looking at here is The result of the live stream, which is normally what we have for the dividing line

25:07

But that includes the 15 -20 minute long intermissions and everything else and I would imagine eventually

25:16

South Dakota apologetics is gonna put together a Different version of it with better sound and take the intermissions out and and stuff like that and post that This one right now is at a hundred and eighteen thousand more than hundred teen thousand views on YouTube that's really good

25:37

Well, I don't that sort of messes stuff up Does that mess stuff up for you?

25:47

I? Well, okay. All right. So there's all sorts of things we could look at especially during the cross -examination section

25:58

Going either direction that were just Fascinating they really really were but I sort of thought the very last portion of the debate

26:08

Said it all he's just given his final closing and I've got I've got five minutes and Remember that Mr.

26:20

Ventilacion has over the course of the years And if and if if any of you are going you shouldn't have used so much original language this guy

26:31

Go watch his debate with the Church of God minister That's on YouTube on the

26:38

Trinity now the Church God minister wasn't actually a Trinitarian He thinks he is but he doesn't know what the

26:44

Trinity is Didn't know the original languages Joe Ventilacion beat him over the head

26:51

With his ignorance of the original languages and was very proud of doing so so Call it karma if you want if you really want to mix some strange theological concepts together

27:06

But every time I put the Greek up on the screen all of a sudden he got very jittery and very agitated

27:17

And I I asked him once what does this word mean what does this word mean and He all he do is go to an

27:23

English text. I don't think you can read it He claims to teach it and I and he reads, you know, he he can pronounce the words there's a huge difference between being able to pronounce words and actually be able to look at a text and Go.

27:38

Oh, well, this means this and You know, so on so forth So Here's just a portion

27:48

I It was my cross -examination and I just asked the guys to put the

27:54

Text up on the screen. So let's just let's just take a quick a quick look at this. Thank you

28:02

Sir I'd like I'd like to start I'm actually free tomorrow evening if you want to continue this

28:08

You could come in and join us Oh, but how about how about they ask both of us questions?

28:15

No, what we could they can ask both of us questions Oh, we can just go back and forth even time. I'll make myself available five o 'clock.

28:21

You think about that? What do you already have your own your own at 10 o 'clock? Okay. No, I'm that's fine

28:27

Okay, you have already your own at 10 o 'clock. That's why we we we prepare just just offering just offering it for you, sir

28:32

Well on the screen on the screen What what I would suggest is that if you would like we could sit down again with what

28:39

Aaron? Okay, we could set it again and sit another time. So we will continue part two.

28:44

Okay, okay Okay, God, but I said I'm available tomorrow evening. God father part two

28:50

If you want to keep asking God part two, let's let's take a look Let's take a look at Isaiah 43 10 on the screen, please.

28:56

All right I love I've outlined I've outlined in order that you may know and believe and understand and then could you look at the last

29:04

Three words there and tell me what those are. I wish they were showing this.

29:13

Yes. Is that what you're asking for? Yes Yes, hot ego. I mean, huh? Who's speaking in Isaiah 43 10?

29:19

Well, it's it's obvious It's God who was speaking in Isaiah 43 10.

29:25

So Yahweh is speaking I'm looking over there is a tetragrammaton in it. This is

29:31

Greek, sir. It's not I know that's why I said, oh Yeah, I don't see a curious there right there.

29:37

Do you have that? Do you have the car? Yes Yeah, no, there's no like I could ask how they ask

29:44

Says the Lord God, it's not it's Yahweh. It's Yahweh in Hebrew. My point is sir. Why does

29:49

Yahweh use the phrase ego? I me of himself Well, isn't that a title?

29:55

Isn't that a name? Going me. It's not the name. So it's not being used here as a name that you may not understand that Okay, go

30:02

I me I am I am see but he didn't say well, my name is a going me That's the difference in Exodus 3 14 when

30:10

Moses was asked what is his name? He said yeah, I sure yeah, but it is just your conclusion based on what you're showing.

30:18

All right, except That's what Jesus quotes of himself in John 13 19. Oh, that's what it

30:25

That's what he quoted. Yeah, are you sure? Yes, I am You want me to want me to show it to everybody so they can see it and say it too

30:31

That'd be really really be nice for everybody to see here 13 19

30:37

Look at it right here. No, I already told you This Tuesday tech high

30:43

Sunita Hathi ego. I mean, okay, there's oh, I'm sorry. That's oh Your pardon we'll get to it.

30:50

Oh, oh you typed the wrong thing The heiress you meant to forgive us divine, okay,

30:59

I forgive you here here is the na -27 and Boy, you're gonna all these growing.

31:05

Ooh, when you see it, I wonder if you're gonna go. Ooh again John chapter, can you repeat? verse 19

31:14

That when it comes about where Oh, what's those? What's the what's the last phrase there Hathi?

31:20

What well, I don't see In or that you might believe isn't that the same verbal form that's used in Greek subject right here

31:29

It's this John 13 19. Oh, I thought we're talking about John 8 58 here. No, John 13 19

31:35

Oh, okay. So we have a different context now Yeah, the context is

31:41

Jesus is prophesying about what's gonna happen the future just like Isaiah 43 10 So you have the same verb and then you have

31:47

Hathi ego. I mean, why would Jesus take the words of the Greek Septuagint? They were about Jehovah Yahweh That's not the way

31:55

I see it there. They I am there the question there in Rome in John chapter 8

32:01

That's not John chapter 8 John chapter 13. Yeah, that's what I said. No, you said John chapter 8 John chapter 13

32:06

Okay, I'm still at John 8 58 Because okay Most of the time

32:14

Christ is being questioned if he is the Messiah or not. No, I thought I was talking about. Okay, so John 13 13 is the betrayal of Judas.

32:23

Okay Now I tell her before it comes now when it does come pass many believe that I am

32:30

He in the King James version. I am he would in italicized he

32:36

You know Hathi ego. I mean, okay using the exact same verbal form that's found the

32:41

Greek Septuagint My question for you is why would Jesus if everything you've said about him is true apply

32:48

Isaiah 43 Yes, you're thinking that he was applying Isaiah 43 then see in in this version which is

32:56

NLT I told you this now so that it happens. You will believe that I am the

33:01

Messiah the I am there Is that can you can you show me the word Messiah in the Greek sir? We're not talking about bad

33:06

English translations Oh, okay stick with the let's stick with the Greek Okay, it's barely a paraphrase folks

33:14

If you have to use that You're not dealing with the New Testament, oh, okay

33:23

And the time ran out saved by the Bell So, there you go

33:33

That's called trying to survive

33:40

For five minutes without ever really dealing with the issue at all and it

33:47

Anybody who's read my book knows I dealt with the I am sayings rather rather extensively an entire chapter

33:53

Just on John's presentation of the I am things which included by the way He said I never mentioned this but I did in the book

34:00

John 9 9 which was an amazingly shallow and horrific attempt to get around the

34:08

I am sayings of Jesus in the Gospel of John, but That's what happens when

34:14

I and C is is forced to answer questions they're not going to answer the questions Now what has happened since then well

34:26

It's been interesting I've never only when

34:32

I did only when I ran afoul of the social justice warriors and the black

34:38

Hebrew Israelites have I had To add to my block or mute list on Twitter as much as I have in the past few days and Not so much for abusiveness as just people that just Didn't it didn't even seem to me that they had even listened to the debate or if they had they were only listening to one side

35:04

Unthinking Just repeating the same mantras Very The response has been the demonstration of the cultic nature of a glacian acquisto to the nth degree to the nth degree

35:20

And what I mean by that is When you look at how cults respond they tend to be easily offended by anything

35:34

While being extremely offensive themselves, so, you know you you watch what they did in the debate and the talking back and forth and the interruptions and the the

35:47

The questions that are just not even semi respectful like well is

35:52

X's 314 in the Bible Do you believe what it says, you know this kind of stuff. Those aren't meaningful

35:59

Meaningful questions. They're disrespectful and Yet I'm the one you you didn't even bring a

36:08

Bible to this debate Really? It's just a you never you should stick to Bible verses

36:16

You know this this kind of stuff that just it just makes you go It makes you reach for the mute button because there's obviously no way to actually talk to this person or reason with this person

36:28

There's a lot a lot of that. But then starting I think the next morning

36:34

I Was sent a link to a Facebook article Where a guy that we had met because No, it was actually a

36:45

Sunday morning because a guy that we had met Before the 5 o 'clock meeting very few people showed up that 5 o 'clock meeting by the way but a

36:56

Guy that we had met out in the hallway His son was in with his little boys name was Calvin He was kicking a lighted soccer ball around but I don't know 19 months 20 months something like that and He came in with us and he took a picture of me talking with mr.

37:13

Ventilacion Now, why did I go there to ask him a question real simple? We wanted to get hold of their official book that defines their theology fundamental beliefs of Iglesia Ni Cristo by the last leader of The INC not the current leader, but his dad

37:33

I believe and You know, I just What I what

37:41

I asked him When we met was well look You can quote from my book

37:48

You can quote from the confession of faith in my church We are wide open in regards to What we believe we're not hiding anything

38:02

You accused me of misrepresenting you during the debate and yet How could

38:09

I be expected to accurately represent you There is no official Statement of faith that you make available to people outside that has any meaningful depth to it to be able to hold anybody accountable for Consistent exegesis or anything like that and so I Was basically saying it, you know

38:31

You talked about doing another debate and I found out in this conversation that he was the next day moving to San Diego And we'll be taking up a position in the congregation in San Diego And so he was saying well, we could do it in San Diego or we could do it in Phoenix.

38:47

I said now I haven't found that folks in Phoenix are all that big on going to things like that I think

38:53

San Diego would probably be more attractive to a lot of people and he said I can guarantee 3 ,000 people in San Diego great

39:02

Sounds sounds like a plan. But here's the problem I Need to be able to quote from your official material.

39:09

So I would like to buy a copy of that book oh, no, no, we only give that to ministers and So we had this conversation and the other guy that was with him was talking about how you know someone can't just walk into the cockpit of a jetliner and asked to read the manuals because they really won't understand and And I'm like Well, you know

39:29

I could turn that around and and I could demonstrate you didn't understand what you were reading in my own book but that doesn't mean

39:36

I'm gonna hide that book from you and So they didn't give me the book obviously and and didn't give me any hope of getting it we are certainly working on obtaining it by other means but the fact is that This conversation was me challenging them to not be so secretive about their beliefs

39:59

Because they are secretive you go to their meeting meetings. You have to sign in they keep an eye on you

40:06

You this is a very very controlling group and I said it doesn't help your reputation any that the book that defined your beliefs.

40:15

You won't let anybody else see it. Oh No, no, no. So that's what the conversation is. Well Sunday morning

40:21

I get I start getting these notifications people. Hey the INC guys now not INC media

40:27

Which I guess is their official thing but when I saw it the

40:34

Post had 998 shares on it. So nearly a thousand shares and it was a picture taken by that guy whose son's name was

40:43

Calvin of me talking to Joe and the whole story was and I've sent it

40:49

I've taken it a translation was provided to me and Then when people started saying well, that's not really what it's saying

40:56

I sent it to other people who speak that language I said, yeah, that is what it's saying So What it was saying was

41:05

I Want to know more about INC because Joe had demonstrated that the

41:11

Bible doesn't teach the Trinity and I was I Wanted more information so I could convert to INC and I even wrote to to Joe.

41:20

He's never written back to say Could you do something about this? Could you you know what that conversation was about?

41:27

You know, we actually said to one another So would you would you please you know? Put out a statement or respond to this or you know do what's right?

41:37

because if the if the Roles were reversed man. I would have been on on that like a duck on a

41:43

June bug. So You know, I just realized that phrase doesn't mean too much to most people outside of the

41:51

Midwest But you can tell where my mom grew up. Anyways, it's like a duck on a

41:56

June bug It's better than poking the eye with sharp stick. There's all sorts of wonderful fun Idiomatic phrases like that that probably people outside the u .s.

42:05

Are going what is he talking about? I don't know. It's you know, so Anyway Could you explain the part of the debate when he brought up John 9 -9 well,

42:18

I suppose I can so anyway since then people have been saying that that guy who posted it has now apologized and People have gone after him and and and and he's withdrawn it, okay but a whole lot of people were really really willing to believe it and It was so obviously false and yet people wanted to believe a falsehood

42:46

The the groupthink the mindset of these individuals the fact that almost everything what

42:51

I'm talking totally incapable of critical thought just It's like they're critical thinking faculties that light switches has been turned off it's like talking to the worst

43:04

Jehovah's Witness the worst Mormon and Yet it is not just the worst.

43:10

It's that's the standard. That's the norm amongst these folks it really it really is and an amazing thing to observe and so We we pray for the video that it will be

43:26

Obviously, I'd love to see INC post it if INC does not post this video Has anybody checked if someone could check?

43:36

INC media I think is the official name or something Could someone see if they can find a posting from INC of the video of that debate

43:51

Because the link that used to be on their website, it's dead they they pulled it so Pray that they'll put it up.

44:00

First of all, that'd be great. Even if they don't we'll have it up and We will make it out we will we'll get it out there and Yeah, I'm being told they had a problem with recording and uploaded

44:15

SD apology so they don't they They're just linking to the SD apologetics recording that's that's what

44:24

I'm being told is the that oh Okay, oh

44:30

Okay, so they pulled the other guys Interesting well, hey, here's here's my suggestion

44:38

Whatever we need to do have the guys with SD apologetics Well, I'm sure they're watching

44:46

Aaron is Aaron contact Joe and say what can we do

44:54

To get you what you need to put your own version out to your people

45:02

Right, that's what we want to do Yeah, you bet let's get it out there

45:07

Who you know, let's make sure that That it's out there and just make sure that's the entire debate

45:14

Because I I forgot to queue this up and I've got other things to get to so I'm not gonna get to it but man

45:22

The Spin, did you see the? faux news story the fake news story

45:29

That they did on the debate. They have their own little news people type show thing and it was the most

45:37

Wow Report yeah, I never said a word and they're they're interviewing all these people that are converting as a result of the debate yeah, uh -huh, and It was it was it was amazing.

45:53

And you know, I've watched some videos they've put out about their Veneration of the church administration.

46:00

So it is scary. It really is a very controlling

46:07

Organization and So pray that They'll post a video that the video that we've got like I said had a hundred and eighteen thousand

46:21

Nearly a hundred eighteen thousand five hundred views on on the one from South Dakota apologetics and so We want people to be able to see it we want it to be able to be utilized for a long period of time

46:38

Pray for Nick and Conley I'm sure that they probably have more contacts and things going on at true

46:50

Iglesia org than they've ever had before And that's good They had tried to talk to me about Doing something like this years ago, and I was like guys, come on I just a man's got to know his limitations and It's it's true, but lo and behold it happened it happened anyways and So appreciate everybody.

47:15

It made it possible for us to get up there. You know when I talk about that travel link that we have You know that stuff's very helpful in making all this happen almost didn't make it man.

47:26

I let me say something I'm really really appreciative to the pilot. I think it was

47:34

Jorn the last name was Jorn J -O -R -N. I think the pilot of the

47:39

Canada Air regional jet flying from Dallas Fort Worth to Rapid City on Thursday evening

47:47

I Could tell they were getting close to canceling that flight and when I asked about flights next day

47:54

I was not gonna make it and I was literally looking at a 16 -hour drive

48:01

Which is dangerous just dangerous to drive the night like that. I mean I was dangerous when you're 20 a lot more dangerous than my age and That pilot not only did he communicate with us, but he was on his phone calling

48:15

Mesa Air and calling people and not only Do I think that's why the flight made but he even got us another plane

48:23

We're gonna have to wait for this other plane to come in as we really late He got us another plane. We only got in about an hour and 50 minutes late.

48:28

You know about two hours hey, I'll take two hours over 16 anything and He was just a really nice guy.

48:36

So let me say thanks when you're normally angry with people You might as well say thanks when someone really does something and goes goes above and beyond.

48:44

So that was that was really cool So anyways, it was quite the interesting experience

48:50

I hope You know for those of you who go waste of time you just I'm sorry, you don't understand

48:57

You've got the wrong view of debate. You don't have my view debate. Let's put that way maybe maybe from your perspective you wouldn't engage in something like that, but from my perspective it was a it was a great opportunity and I'm very thankful for for what happened.

49:14

So with that in mind, let me remind you that there is going to be a

49:20

Huge contrast Huge contrast between What I just experienced with Joe ventilation and what's coming up in what?

49:35

5 20 days from today barely barely three weeks from now I am going to be doing a debate in London.

49:45

That means I have barely three weeks home and Then I'm gone for the longest overseas trip

49:50

I've ever done and I can only blame myself for this But the opportunity was there and When I get the opportunity of teaching especially for EBTC and stuff it's hard for me to say no and I've had a student in the past at EBTC.

50:16

His name is Radek They're in the Czech Republic. I think he's gonna be translating for me and You know, they're really neat guys and I'm looking forward to it, but it's still gonna be really

50:30

Really a long time for me, you know, some people can be away from home forever

50:36

And it doesn't impact them. I I say I tell people I'm a little bit like a

50:43

Carton of milk. I've got about a two -week date on there and after that starts smelling a little bit funky, you know what

50:51

I mean? And So I'm going for 22 days on this trip. That's just ridiculous

50:59

But we'll be debating at an incredible site In London a

51:08

Bunch of people have been saying have you seen all the really incredibly nice things that people said about me and Peter's unbelievable radio broadcast

51:17

I don't know why this is starting but Just gonna turn it off the

51:24

Unbelievable radio broadcast That was released over the weekend was

51:30

Peter D Williams and myself on The Reformation was a terrible mistake or a work of God And I told you when

51:37

I came back I said, I think I was one of the best conversations I've ever had on that subject and it was and everybody that all the comments

51:46

Justin even put together a whole screen of super complimentary tweets where people have been saying why why can't this conversation be like this all the time because Pewdie Williams is a

52:00

Orthodox believing Roman Catholic and and Francis gives him the hives on a few things, too

52:05

And I mean we're talking We're talking old -style Catholic answers

52:12

Roman Catholic, you know really believes that Rome is the true church and that there is an

52:17

Orthodox understanding Roman Catholicism and all this liberalism just doesn't really fit and We we go at it, but we go at it with tremendous respect for one another and It just it just makes a huge difference so we're debating the

52:37

Marian dogmas At the Brompton Oratory, which is his church and if you and google it,

52:43

I mean The pictures and I'm hoping to have my own photographer there and We should get lots and lots of incredible pictures from from the debate as well

52:56

Pray for the debate pray for my health. Obviously the whole time gone But pray for the debate

53:03

But I cannot imagine a greater contrast than what you're gonna get not in the sense.

53:08

It's gonna be boring In in any way shape or form, but the level of conversation is gonna be so far beyond What I just experienced that the contrast might burn my clutch out

53:23

It might there might be a really ever ever smelled a clutch burning Yeah, I think it we may have to worry about the the smell a little bit

53:32

Just in how massive the the difference is going to be so that image that's not an image.

53:39

That's more of a odiferous parable Odiferous parable.

53:48

Yeah. There you go. All right, so there's there's that Now on to Less enjoyable things

54:05

There's There be stuff going on that. I really haven't been able to Be on the the front burners with I'm sorry.

54:17

It's just difficult to You know read stuff while you're on the

54:26

Skytrain going from B concourse to C concourse and Then you stick it in your pockets and you've got to find some place to eat and and you're you're slamming down I was so thankful to find

54:39

Chick -fil -a and concourse see it at Dallas yesterday It was really good too, by the way

54:46

It's just you just sort of feel disconnected from everything when you're away I didn't I didn't even turn the television on the whole time.

54:52

I was in in Rapid City. I just just didn't bother and It actually helps your blood pressure and you do that, it's sort of fun, but I think right at the beginning of my trip

55:09

I Said as I think I was I think I was at the airport leaving

55:15

I said, you know, I think I do I was sent and I do not

55:21

Unlike other people. I do not Try to create a network of informants.

55:27

I don't have time for that Don't have time don't have interest but there are people who send me things and Sometimes things

55:34

I get I don't even know where it came from But over the years

55:42

I haven't sent a number of things from a place called The bunker

55:50

The pulpit bunker is its fuller name and it is the it's associated with pulpit and pen and I've known some people who've been a part of it in the past I know a lot of people actually who've been a part of it in the past and a lot of those people today

56:15

Look back and go I I can't believe I was part of that and I repent and The things have been sent to me obviously are not a fair representation of what's there all the time

56:32

But there are so many things and I I've had people tell me I won't even send you some of the stuff I could send you great

56:40

But I not only have I seen myself Personally attacked

56:48

My character my my ministry But my daughter my family and many men that I know to be men of God and So I I said as I was flying out, yeah,

57:03

I was I was it that was a Sky Harbor I don't think I was a Dallas. I think I was a Sky Harbor when

57:08

I Basically tweeted out or put on Facebook. You know what? I think I'm gonna talk about this. I'm gonna name names well

57:18

There've been a lot of conversations that have taken place over the past five six days and Until today

57:29

I was just gonna actually address some more overarching concerns What's brought all this about has been not only the stuff that's been sent to me from the bunker

57:42

But some of the things that have been said and insinuated Concerning my response to Eastern Orthodoxy and CRI and Hank Hanegraaff and all that stuff from last week and there have been people who have basically been saying that My response was

58:08

Insufficient they've been accusing me of inconsistency That I'll take a bazooka to William Lane Craig, but then

58:15

I won't over here. I won't over there By the way, let me just refute that those of you.

58:21

They're promoting that thing. I'm sorry I don't know why you don't seem to understand what's going on But you don't you are wrong

58:31

I Have Consistently Interacted with William Lane Craig's materials for decades decades.

58:42

You can go back decades I've played portions of his defenders class his

58:47

Sunday school class. I Have interacted with his Mullen ism. I've interacted with his debates with atheists

58:54

I've been doing this for a long long time and I have done so absolutely

59:00

Fairly and the very fact that I just raised my voice, but oh see you're inconsistent If you say there's something wrong with how we do things

59:12

Category errors big problem in in people's thinking these days People say you're

59:21

You hold people at different standards I hold believers to a different standard that I hold unbelievers and I think

59:26

William Lane Craig's a believer Some of you don't think he is which is sort of funny That you'll criticize me for that.

59:34

I Hold William Lane Craig latent flowers to a higher standard because I accept their

59:40

Christian profession. I Don't hold a Muslim to that standard because they don't make a

59:46

Christian profession. I think that would be obvious I've explained a thousand times before but the reality is

59:56

Anybody who says that I have been unfair to William Lane Craig is Prove it

01:00:02

Prove it How many hours of William Lane Craig's voice have you heard in this program?

01:00:10

Not edited Played straight out You may disagree with my criticisms of him, but you don't have a leg to stand on that I have not been absolutely fair to the man absolutely fair to the man, so when

01:00:31

I There was a article Posted about the

01:00:37

CRI situation and I briefly criticized it because of its tone and Its lack of depth and as a result,

01:00:48

I saw a number of insinuations Well, see, you know, he's soft on that sure is hard on Christians, but why but you know what comes to Easter orthodoxy?

01:00:58

I got a note from a dear friend of mine, and he doesn't realize how dear friend

01:01:03

He is to me. We don't really talk all that much, but it doesn't matter I just just have so much respect for the guy and He is a

01:01:13

I won't give him a much more information because I don't want to drag him in the middle of all this And honestly,

01:01:19

I had sort of forgotten the fact that He has spent a

01:01:26

Long a lot of time studying Eastern orthodoxy. He really Really has

01:01:32

I'd sort of forgotten that but it fits with what he does overall and Yeah, I see it.

01:01:42

Just I just got to press on there's nothing I can do about it I got a note from him that said that basically thanked me and Said, you know what you said about Eastern orthodoxy

01:02:00

Was was accurate and Careful and you're right most people in the

01:02:06

West just don't even don't even have a clue They are evaluating Eastern orthodoxy on Western standards

01:02:14

They they don't know what the issues are about. They a lot of the the stuff is is cultural

01:02:22

And Even when they're right about such issues as scriptural sufficiency role of tradition

01:02:33

Justification Theosis all the rest that kind of stuff. He wasn't saying this. I'm just reiterating what

01:02:39

I said that Even when they're right So often the criticism

01:02:48

Rings hollow to the Orthodox person because of the way in which it is phrased and the the direction of which is coming as I said the first day

01:03:00

I responded to the news about Hank Hanegraaff's Joining East orthodoxy.

01:03:06

I don't talk about this subject because trying to get everybody up to speed on it is beyond my capacity

01:03:14

I've had enough conversations with really well read

01:03:20

Eastern Orthodox To recognize How complex this issue is and as soon as you say that a lot of people just dismiss you

01:03:29

Well, you're just you're just compromising you're just compromising. Sorry has nothing to do with compromising it's actually just trying to be honest and scholarly and accurate in what you're saying and The problem is that if you don't do that Then the criticisms you offer even when they're on important issues are crippled by your inability to accurately

01:03:55

Contextualize them to make them relevant to the actual position in other words I think one of the differences that I have with certain polemicists is

01:04:03

That I want to respond to the best arguments of the other side

01:04:09

Not to the least common denominator not to the gutter arguments or the low arguments or anything

01:04:15

I want to respond to the best because if you respond to the best then that's still going to remain relevant to the

01:04:21

Less arguments whereas when you present the more popular level stuff It's not actually relevant to those who actually have thought through their faith

01:04:30

That's the same of with Islam which gets me into trouble. That's the same with Mormonism, which gets me into trouble I mean, how long have

01:04:37

I been doing this? Remember remember back in back in the days when about the only thing we were dealing with as Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses What's one of the things that got us in trouble?

01:04:47

but the fact that I wouldn't I wouldn't go along With some of those popular people dealing with Mormonism because the argument wasn't appropriate

01:05:03

So this is nothing new. It's been going on for literally decades Just trying to be consistent so People who

01:05:21

People who have in essence been criticizing me I Was Well, I guess an apology was given for this, but I was identified as a false religious leader.

01:05:35

Shall we say claiming? authority As to how to engage these issues

01:05:43

I just basically got sick and tired of what

01:05:48

I was seeing Coming out of the pulpit bunker. And so I said, let's let's talk about it. Well since then

01:05:55

What has happened is there's been a number of conversations not involving me I've been a little bit on the busy side And When I was coming home,

01:06:11

I was contacted by a friend of mine, I forget what the article was

01:06:20

But one of the recent pulpit and pen articles written by J .D. Hall in lamenting

01:06:29

His grand theme of the downgrade Mentioning various and sundry big names from Karl Truman and No, Karl Truman's not a

01:06:43

Southern Baptist that's for sure but Albert Moeller and Roger what's guys the

01:06:52

ERLC or whatever guy Roger something. Anyways, you can tell how much

01:06:57

I'm into that stuff He threw in an utterly gratuitous waste of words shot at Tom Buck Now some of you don't know who

01:07:13

Tom Buck is If you saw the full presentation that I did one time

01:07:23

Laying out the case against Eric Cantor that was shot at Tom Buck's church

01:07:30

In Lindale, Texas I've spoken there a couple times. I think that time and one other time if he wasn't so far from Dallas I'd speak there more often, but he's

01:07:43

Let's just say he's out in that part of Texas where if you just want to go out in the backyard and shoot off a Few it's okay

01:07:51

And So Sometime I think last year the year for last.

01:08:00

I don't remember you can read the details of this on a statement that Tom wrote

01:08:08

Posted on Facebook. It was removed from Facebook It's currently on the Alpha Omega site

01:08:14

Alpha Omega Facebook page He talks about a situation where He was asked to do a memorial for a police dog and He goes into the details of it church member.

01:08:30

It was church members dog. It was he was the partner There's gonna be a memorial one way or the other and normally it's some liberal

01:08:41

Somebody Tom didn't want to do his initial feeling was ah But after praying about it thinking about it

01:08:48

Opportunity here even the governor of the state of Texas could be involved so many people is

01:08:54

There a way to make this an opportunity to do a gospel presentation. So he did since then and because You know,

01:09:07

I can I can think of a number of people who once were a part of Pulpit and pen pulpit bunker, etc, etc

01:09:17

You don't leave there There's no there's no neutrality it seems

01:09:25

You You you basically become a mortal enemy You're either with me or against me.

01:09:30

I've seen that attitude amongst people before you're either with me or I'm gonna come after you well

01:09:38

JD Hall has gone after Tom Buck For having done that memorial

01:09:45

Numerous times I've never seen JD Hall accurately represent what took place It's always been it's always been spun to make it sound wacky and it's always been put together with all this other weird stuff so that it just sort of communicates the wackiness without ever accurately representing and a

01:10:09

Recent article did this again just total waste of cyberspace Just throw it in there just because ah, and you know what?

01:10:17

I think I'll take another shot at Tom while I'm at it here and I couldn't help but think about last year last summer

01:10:28

Remember last July? My how time passes. It's been less than a year When JD Hall went ballistic in attacking

01:10:41

Jeff Durbin Refcon and myself and Jeff and I sat right here in this very room and We documented falsehood after falsehood after falsehood in What JD Hall said we played him we played his comments and then said is that true?

01:11:06

Nope. Here's why bing bing bing bing bing bing Never heard a word repents Never heard anything withdrawn and in the years since in the almost a year since then

01:11:17

I Have seen stuff sent to me where when pressed or when just I just add the blue all of a sudden he doubles down on it

01:11:26

Repeats the stuff that had been refuted very clearly last year

01:11:32

It's very troubling It's very troubling indeed and So when

01:11:39

I was flying back yesterday Yesterday morning, I think Tom contacted me and he said

01:11:46

I I've written this thing up and I'm I'm going to post it and I didn't actually get to read it until I think

01:11:55

I was on the SkyTrain at DFW and Basically what he was saying is look

01:12:03

This is a pattern of behavior That many people

01:12:09

Have spoken to JD Hall about and JD when you talk to him will say

01:12:18

You know brother, you're right brother, you know You know, I need to work on that brother.

01:12:23

And you know, I really didn't mean to do that and six months later He's doing it again with a vengeance with a vengeance and One of the things that enables him to do this is that he is invited to go speak at things

01:12:41

And he says well this person doesn't have a problem and and you see he's used me like that in years past because I defended him

01:12:48

I defended him in the Situation with the

01:12:55

Cantor situation I Defended him for a long time even when I winced

01:13:01

At what was being said? Well, I don't anymore and as a result have been

01:13:11

Attacked vociferously and one of the things that really bothered me. I'll be straightforward here At G3 JD was there and He was at a booth just what?

01:13:29

10 -15 yards from ours Yeah, even less than that I think about 10 -15 feet

01:13:36

Anyway right across the hall just down a little bit and at one point he just came walking right up to me

01:13:44

And started talking to me about AHA stuff and told me some stuff

01:13:49

I didn't know because like I said, I I'm not I don't have all those contacts out there doing their thing

01:13:58

But the whole time he's talking to me. I'm sitting there going in my mind JD I know what you say about me in allegedly secret places.

01:14:08

I Know what you said about my family about my daughter about me Why are you one thing to my face and something completely different someplace else why not

01:14:25

You know, I just just if you really believe the things you say about me to other people when you're angry

01:14:35

Doesn't that actually reflect your heart? And so I have been used in the past as One who has defended this man in his

01:14:52

Consistent well, I was saying nuclear option.

01:14:57

It's a little bit scary these days in North Korea and Iran But it's the nuclear option.

01:15:03

It is it is the go for the worst and If you if you

01:15:13

Read what he's saying today. He'll always go back to any places there have been criticized and always double down on The places where there has been disagreement with other people we were right about this and we were right about that we were you know, the

01:15:27

Pope thing and and whatever else and There are a bunch of us including

01:15:33

Tom bug that are extremely Concerned about what is going to happen at some point in the future

01:15:45

And the people that are going to be damaged because people have already been damaged. That's the point a

01:15:52

Lot of people already have been damaged by this utter lack of grace this inability to differentiate between standing firm and using a flamethrower to light a birthday candle and so Tom wrote up the article.

01:16:17

It was immediately removed and Yeah, I know and Basically As I understand

01:16:29

Tom's heart his intention what he's saying to the people that are now being used by JD saying hey,

01:16:39

I Think your criticism is all wrong because if you saw JD's response to what he wrote it was just completely dismissive totally ignored the factual issues about the memorial totally ignored everything else basically that was being said and just Put on the full martyr garb, you know,

01:16:58

I'm you know, I Am a I'm a polemicist I just simply put up with this type of thing and it's what

01:17:05

I've come to expect and so in other words It doesn't matter how many of us have expressed sincere concerns about his

01:17:18

Attitude and and Actions and the distinction that exists between what happens in the allegedly

01:17:28

Secret halls of the Pulpit Bunker and what happens out in real life. There should not be a distinction between those two

01:17:34

There shouldn't be. Well because certain people were mentioned

01:17:42

By Tom Buck who are now being used in this way. Well now there's whole lot of tension

01:17:50

Tom you shouldn't have done that. You should come to this person should come to that person. I think pretty much everybody knows

01:17:59

I knew Let me put it this way. I knew when when

01:18:04

I was defending JD That I sort of sat back at times going. Oh JD and it was sort of like back when before Sam Shamoon went ballistic on me.

01:18:18

I did say many times to Sam and he would he has to confess that I did.

01:18:29

I talked to him over and over and over again But I never went to the mat.

01:18:35

It was always you know, come on brother. Come on brother Part of it's because of the problems that we have in the church today in the sense of how disconnected we are especially by distance and things like that.

01:18:49

I mean if you're gonna contact elders in a church, man, you're really getting super serious at that point and Tom even mentioned once that he had written to there was some problem with the with the with JD's church

01:19:04

And he had written in defense of JD and I remember that and I think I even offered to write in defense of JD at That point.

01:19:10

I don't think I ended up doing it, but I think I offered to do the same thing It's easy for us to close our eyes when we know what's actually going on, but eventually, there's just such a chorus of people and I think

01:19:27

Tom just eventually came to the conclusion, you know, well, we've just been sitting around and look Tom and I have talked about it over and over again and Generally our default position was well

01:19:43

There's just there's just nothing to be accomplished by saying anything about it because it's just gonna get Nastier and nastier and nastier.

01:19:49

Let's just let's just let's just pray It blows over and goes away and let's let's try to focus upon positive things and just and it's not going away

01:19:58

And I think I think Tom just came to the conclusion It's not going away.

01:20:04

This is just gonna happen over and over and over again And I'm not even mentioning some of the other people's names

01:20:10

I could bring up who would chime in on this and say yeah We've talked to him too and he's done this to me and this person over there and that person

01:20:18

I can name names name lots of names there's a problem here and I'm no longer the person that is going to be listened to and Tom's no longer the person that's gonna be listened to and I think the point is the people that still will be listened to Need to say something

01:20:45

Because the chorus is not made up of a bunch of wild -eyed wacko liberals

01:20:52

The chorus is made up of people who believe may the same things within the past six months

01:21:01

I Made the comment that I saw a debate the JD Hall did and what did

01:21:08

I say? He won How many times I said, yep, he's he's right on the facts

01:21:16

It just seems I just wish I could communicate him to him that you can be right on the facts But if you write the facts down with a pen filled with acid, it's not going to accomplish anything

01:21:29

It's not gonna talk to get you anywhere Doesn't doesn't seem to communicate.

01:21:35

We're not the ones to tell him this anymore you guys That are still in the circle

01:21:44

You've got a decision to make Because our experience is if you dare speak up you will be ravaged

01:21:54

You will become part of the downgrade you'll become part of the problem. I don't know what to do about it

01:22:04

I don't know what to do about it. I can tell you this and I and I will tell you this the most draining

01:22:19

Discouraging thing in ministry in a church Is infighting backbiting

01:22:26

I have all the energy in the world to stand before The best debater of INC and Defend the truth.

01:22:39

No problem, and I'll take the nastiness that comes my way and I'll go into mosques and I'll All of that stuff

01:22:53

But God deliver me from the politics

01:22:59

God deliver me from the backbiting God deliver me from the people who call themselves

01:23:06

Christians and I have to accept that profession Because there's nothing that will rip your lips off More than that kind of stuff

01:23:19

Here, I've got friends and I enjoyed

01:23:25

Meeting JD the first time I met him his passion Inspired me and I was in the company of others who

01:23:37

I still consider my friends, but we disagree about this We disagree about what to do about this.

01:23:43

We disagree about how to approach this and I'm simply gonna tell you

01:23:53

That I Can vouch for the motivation and the integrity the intentions of Pastor Tom Buck in this situation

01:24:09

There are few brothers better than I know than Tom Buck and He means the world to me.

01:24:17

So I'm biased so you can just dismiss me. Well, no, I hope not. I hope not My prayer is that those people who are still

01:24:33

Able to communicate Without being dismissed as compromisers and leaders of the downgrade

01:24:40

Will as a group Seek to come alongside

01:24:47

Because JD Hall is a brilliant guy, but I am very very concerned

01:24:54

When someone can be one thing because you know when he's in a debate He has to he has to exercise self -control.

01:25:00

I know it's what I do You have to be able to exercise self -control. He can't why can't he in the pulpit bunk?

01:25:07

That's where the difference is because I'm the same wherever I am He's not that's not good.

01:25:13

Someone needs to do something about it for his own good and for everyone around him For everyone around him.

01:25:21

So this has become a Public thing and all there's so many people

01:25:26

I see the comments. I see the comments out there in the net I just I just can't believe anybody's talking about this.

01:25:32

Yeah, just shove it under the rug That's what you all want to do.

01:25:38

I get it Well, you all just want to do this because you want to fight I do not

01:25:47

Anybody out there and I saw you people I saw you in the comments It's just it's just a few bit if I never exchange another crossword with JD Hall I will feel blessed

01:26:02

Folks do you have any idea what I'm facing right now? Schedule wise do you have any idea?

01:26:12

that This thing is not going to collate itself against the

01:26:18

Byzantine Western and Alexandrian text types It's Caesarean too in one spot that I have to do so I could collate itself

01:26:30

Bagnell's entire Oxford Encyclopedia of papyrology is not going to read itself for me.

01:26:37

I have three weeks Before 22 days overseas

01:26:44

One of the sharpest most intelligent Roman Catholic apologists I've ever faced in an amazing context

01:26:52

Speaking in Wittenberg Teaching on Roman Catholicism and the

01:26:58

Trinity in two different foreign countries via translation and That's before the summer starts

01:27:08

Because not only do I go up to Colorado speaking in three different churches In August I'm preaching in my church.

01:27:14

Then I'm back down in Johannesburg and London again the next month The tour to all over Europe The month after that two trips down to Dallas on numerous different subjects then it looks like off to Washington DC right after that and I have book projects written debates.

01:27:35

I have no earthly idea how I'm gonna get any of that done I don't have any desire for this none zero

01:27:47

So for any of you sitting there in the comm boxes and with your brilliant insights into people's motivations

01:27:54

You've missed me. I don't want any of this But the fact is

01:28:01

I've been involved with it since well before last year, but I especially last year

01:28:08

Got to see what it's like to be on the receiving end of J .D.

01:28:15

Hall's invective and it was ugly and I hope my hope and prayer is that This situation will cause people no matter how whether you agree or disagree

01:28:34

With how it was Handled the fact the matter is the secrecy here has been what has allowed this to fester

01:28:43

The fact that people have continuously been doing the private thing is what has allowed this to go on and on and on and on Let's get it taken care of We've we've made our statements.

01:29:01

I invite J .D. To ask honestly of those individuals take their counsel and then

01:29:18

Just just ignore me. I know that our audiences overlap, but Can we just Just move along I mean,

01:29:30

I guess it I guess that's just that's just pie in the sky because You know,

01:29:36

I look at the Pulp and Pen article from April 21st on East Northodoxy and I can't help but look at it and go okay

01:29:47

There are numerous truths stated there, but the person who wrote this falls into the same trap of so many others of thinking the

01:29:57

Eastern Orthodoxy because they make this claim of themselves is

01:30:02

Monolithic you need to understand when mystics all claim to be united That's not the same thing as Westerners when they say they're united and I know that most people in the

01:30:15

West just don't understand that They just don't get it and I don't Don't know how to communicate it.

01:30:21

Sorry It's one of the reasons I've tried to avoid avoid that but my point is when I see something like that People ask me what do you think and by the way, let me just add one other thing to this

01:30:32

I know I'm going along but I'll wrap up here as quick as I can What?

01:30:40

Oh You got some splainin do oh Well that actually derailed my train so go ahead put the thing in so you can hear me you had made your post on Facebook Friday morning, and I saw it and Shortly after that.

01:31:07

I started getting phone calls From people who were concerned and reporting

01:31:13

Certain events going on in this place called pulpit bunker to me. One of them sent me a screenshot of a post by Len Pettis Regarding his complaint that you didn't take the bazooka to Hank Hanegraaff and What's that that's all

01:31:31

I was gonna talk about yeah, okay, and I Invited one of them to please post my telephone number the pote the number here that I answer the phones all day long and That Len didn't bother to actually ask the question of this ministry because the answer to me was glaring you already covered that and I know that that post was made in the pulpit bunker and that the phone number was there because Shortly later.

01:32:03

I received a text on my cell phone because he has my cell phone number from JD Saying can

01:32:09

I call to? I'm like sure the phones open all day long. I answer the phones all day long so we don't have a camera on him

01:32:18

So I have to watch well. I'll do this here We'll take a different angle of you, and you can just look at me and everybody else will make it like yeah

01:32:25

You play with the tribble or something you know anyway, so I? Got on the phone with JD and we talked for some time, and I will be honest here

01:32:33

I made sure that he called the main line and not my cell phone because I have a headset and I made sure that because when

01:32:41

I have the headset and you're on a cell phone. I have the advantage I Can raise my voice, and there's nothing you can do about it, and I did a lot of the talking in this conversation, and I?

01:32:54

I voiced my view that pulpit and pen engages in yellow journalism on a routine basis

01:33:00

And I explained why I believe that to him and that they take facts bare facts and then extrapolate information out of it and He didn't disagree with that in fact he tried to defend it saying in the case of Hank Hanegraaff that he was charismatic and Therefore he can logically conclude or assume was his word that Certain beliefs come with that It's perfectly consistent, and I explained to him, but the fact is you've not actually heard

01:33:34

Hank say those things yet He might very well say those things, but you haven't actually heard him say those things so the programs that James did were based on two programs that Hank has done since the charismation and he's

01:33:49

Interacting with what actually said so the contrast between Craig who is a known entity for 20 years

01:33:54

Layton flowers who's been a known entity for at least four years Etc etc

01:34:01

But he insisted he can assume certain things that he's gonna believe these things

01:34:06

And I said okay, then I I challenge you does that mean that Layton flowers?

01:34:12

Believed the things he claimed to believe when he said he was a Calvinist That you can extrapolate that he knew all about Reformed theology, and he's right on target with it

01:34:20

No, you can't do that either Kenya So we had a lengthy conversation

01:34:26

And it came back full circle just like you explained it there where it's like okay we need to stop the back and forth can we just stop the back and forth and can we

01:34:39

Talk and I said I will talk to James is on the road We'll see if we can work something else happens when

01:34:47

I'm traveling. Yeah, it always happens in traveling so I I reached out to you, and I explained that the conversation went that particular way and I then said after all this stuff was in South Dakota Monday I'll get with you and explain the details so I started going down the road of explaining the details as you're traveling back

01:35:07

And you said you know what I you should talk to Tom because Tom's got this

01:35:14

Yeah, cuz that I yeah Ready to go and that that was news to me, too

01:35:19

Yeah, that I didn't know that last week when I said I was good so here's here's where things changed, and I'm gonna explain why it changed because I called

01:35:29

Tom up and Tom began to explain to me what's in this article and He began to explain to me the very conversations that he's had with JD on a numerous occasions

01:35:43

That just like you say well. Yeah, okay, and yeah well, okay, and then he turns around and does it again, and yeah?

01:35:49

Well, okay, and he acknowledges these things, but then he turns around does it again, and you know what the things? He's explained to me are exactly the very same things.

01:35:56

I had just talked with JD on Friday about And I Realized I've just been engaging in wash rinse repeat

01:36:04

Yeah, here. I am in the same boat. You've explained Tom's explained had repeated times, and I can't stand away this

01:36:11

I Could have you know I could have I could have said no no we're gonna stop everything and we're gonna stand

01:36:18

And we're gonna try to but there is no working out because it's wash rinse repeat It's just the same cycle going over and over and over again and at some point we've got to say we're gonna get off the merry -go -round and Do something about it, and that's why when

01:36:32

Tom Notified us that he'd posted the the article on Bible thumping wingnuts Facebook page and that they deleted it and he asked for our space to do that you and I both had no problem whatsoever

01:36:46

Yeah, I stand with Tom on this when he I think I'm trying to remember whether you told me about it

01:36:51

He told me about it first. I Yeah, and I I had read it

01:36:59

But it was on my phone, and it was it's fairly quick, and I was like yeah You know this this looks fine to me.

01:37:06

I did not read it as quote -unquote calling out anybody I saw it as Here's a problem these people are being

01:37:16

Utilized as a as a shield just as I had been at some point in the past and Look I If I were one of those people

01:37:27

I'd have to think twice about saying anything negative because you'll you'll see what happens You see what could happen to you if you were to dare

01:37:36

Actually say anything because it can get and get pretty ugly get pretty ugly So yeah, that's why it's there and I wish this type of thing didn't happen.

01:37:46

I really do But Anyway You know it's it's bad enough that We deal with issues like You know

01:38:05

I haven't had a chance really to fully delve into the Benedict option book that I want to talk to people about Because you know you've already got

01:38:14

In pulpit and pen the stuff being said about Dreher and that stuff is just so extreme

01:38:21

That the truths that are said that I would share with them End up getting splashed with the acid

01:38:30

That's the problem is you end up damaging the the strength of the true arguments by the attitude that you that you

01:38:41

Dip them in and I think that's where a lot of people have a problem anyway So there you go.

01:38:47

So we go from the You know a great great weekend met a lot of neat folks a lot of cool stuff happened and Continue to pray for that.

01:39:00

Sorry. We had to deal with something that's less Enjoyable, but it's necessary if we need to be consistent and Will we take heat for Trying to be consistent and trying to say hey folks how you present things is

01:39:22

Very very important, you know, there's one last thing that's it is interesting to me JD quote -unquote moderated or at least introduced the discussion.

01:39:33

I ended up having With Justin Lee up there in at the at the conference and He cannot begin to say that he didn't realize

01:39:48

I mean that was a Let's just say JD could not have had that conversation with Justin.

01:39:55

He could not have on the fly completely changed the entire approach To keep him in that room because if I had used my opening statement that I had prepared

01:40:07

There that would have been all anyone heard that and a closing door would have been it

01:40:13

So he's known from the start that my Commitment is to be firmly committed to the truth and To do so with grace and that's vitally vitally important vitally vitally important.

01:40:33

So Anyways, there you go Next time on the program

01:40:40

Lord willing Neat new stuff They just published as his out should this is how the stuff this is how the green project news should have come out but just published two new oxyrhynchus fragments from the

01:41:00

New Testament Yes, I hate to tell you this but your

01:41:07

Nestle all in 28th edition is now out of date There are two new papyri they're short we can go through all of them but two new oxyrhynchus finds

01:41:20

One is from Ephesians and the other from first Timothy Which makes it our earliest?

01:41:31

fragment of first Timothy That's really cool, that's really exciting unfortunately, it doesn't contain

01:41:41

First Timothy 316 which would have been Big really big but it's still really exciting stuff

01:41:48

So we'll try to get a little conversation on that going on Who knows what's gonna happen between now and then whenever then is?

01:41:59

But Thanks for listening to the program today, hopefully hopefully it was useful to you.