February 1, 2022 Show with Dr. James R. White on “How to Prevent the Implosion of Biblically Faithful Theological Movements”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good.

Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And for those listening Internationally over the internet. This is Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio. For our first live broadcast in a long long time.

We were airing reruns as many of you know who have been listening regularly. We've been airing reruns for quite some time because we have relocated to a new Home here for iron sharpens iron radio not only for iron sharpens iron radio.

But also for me personally, and I'm so delighted and thrilled that the Lord has enabled us to finally relaunch the program. And if you have been following the history of iron sharpens iron radio going all the way back to 2005.

Whenever we have had a first time on this program such as when we first launched in 2005 when we first relaunched in 2015 when we moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania from New York. And Now when we're relaunching again after a long period of reruns due to our studio not being ready.

We have always had as a guest for these firsts my dear friend going back to two actually to 1996 actually the Conversations began in 1995, but I have considered him a dear friend for decades. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

He's a reformed Christian apologist a New Testament Greek scholar. Seasoned debater author of many books conference speaker and member of the pastoral team at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona. And he is co-founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and today we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme how to prevent the implosion of biblically faithful theological movements when Dix Disagreements occur over secondary and tertiary issues.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to a live broadcast my dear friend Dr. James R. White.

Well, it's good to be with you Chris, you know, we first tipped up just a few minutes ago. The the cameras were on and I was looking at your your camera feed and I was going who is that old guy? Chris has working.

And then I then I realized oh no, that's that's actually Chris wearing glasses. Sort of started doing the old man staring at the computer thing. What is this technology stuff and I realized I look just as old.

It Has.

Has been a very very long time. I mean 96 we're coming up on on 30 years. Not quite there, but it's not it's it's it's not too far away. From the start of the the great debates and it's like wow. Okay.

In fact, I was trying to somebody's got to teach me how to do this. I was trying to Cut one sentence out of a video, which is the trailer for a a New movie that's out and the the clip is where a mobster is sitting on his couch and somebody is calling him preparing to enact revenge on him and The mobster sitting there.

He answers the phone. How did you get this number?

First.

Word. Yeah, I ever heard come out of James White's mouth when I called him. Oh, yeah, and then the voice on the other end says same place. I got your address.

Yeah, that would have that would have been definitely fitting given how things started and You know some of those You know one thing that really? Strikes me about the passage of time is The the number of people that I have debated Over the years who are no longer on the earth.

Wow.

So, you know, John Shelby Spong has died Greg.

Morris.

Greg Strawbridge last week. Barry Lynn.

Oh, I didn't know Barry. Yeah, I was I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm not trying to wish him ill, but I'm pretty sure he did. Yeah so it's it is a reminder that eventually I'll be one of those too, but the the the grass the grass withers and fades away and we're all we're all getting older and so hopefully there's some level of wisdom that one grant gains from all of those years, but I'm certainly Hoping to finish.

Well. That's that's not something that I'll be honest with you. I I can't think of anyone when I was younger.

That.

Tried to communicate that to me that you should have as your goal finishing. Well. But I've certainly tried to communicate that to others today because that's not something you just start on after 50 or something like that.

That's something you need to be planning on for for quite a while before then. I think it's a very very very important thing to consider because you and I both can think of people who that we know that did not finish well, and that's.

That's.

You know Pete a lot of people start off and you know, they they're they're rising stars, but then 10 15 20 years later now now 10 15 20 years is starting to become a. We'll see how they're doing after that amount of time, you know instead of the the old ways that we used to do things, but.

Anyhow, yes, it's good to be with you. And obviously, I Think back to the times in on Long Island where we would take the train into into the city we'd actually go to WMCA and yes be in studio and do all sorts of stuff like that long long long ago I remember I think I think that's what I was doing one morning with.

When I went to the station, I think it was near that pizza place. If I recall correctly I would have been wherever you know, the the the German couple that I stayed with it was.

Oh, yeah, Roland and Mariana block. Roland was actually from Switzerland and Mariana was from Germany.

Right, and I think it was somewhere near their house or something like that wherever that that station was on the Long Island Long Island Railroad and I made the huge mistake of walking up there and first of all I stopped and I stood there and evidently I took someone's place.

I didn't realize that there were saved places. That everybody has. And then the worst thing I did was I actually tried to talk to someone. You know cuz I'm from Arizona you actually talk to people and I I'll never forget the look that everyone gave me like who is This visitor and should we push you in front of the plant the train or just what you know?

It was like yeah, welcome to Welcome to Long Island and didn't you and I get lost once get separated. Yes. That was I mean the famous.

Ronkonkoma train station. Yes Yes, I as we were about to board I Said to you. I'm gonna get a cup of coffee and you probably didn't hear me and kept walking and I went into a little Stand where they sold coffee and candy and all that stuff.

Got my coffee walk out and you're nowhere to be found. And I'm calling out your name.

And.

Then I've run up to the platform. The train has arrived. I don't see you anywhere. So I say he must have gotten on this for this train. I get on the train and in a panic I actually walk up to somebody who was on their cell phone and grabbed their cell phone out of their hands and and Yes, and I called you.

I said, please tell me that you're on this train and your answer I could vividly remember was no, sir. No, sir. So I had to meet you in Deer Park. I had to get off the next stop and Then wait for you for the next train to Arrive from Ronkoma Ronkonkoma to Deer Park.

Yeah, I figured out I figured it's pretty much dead at that point. That was.

That was actually when you were speaking at Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayhapock Falls, New York.

See, I how in the world do you remember that? I'm like, I I knew I was going someplace to speak but that's that's hardly a major thing. I have no earthly idea where we were headed or anything else.

But I'm sure that yeah I'm sure that the pastor and congregation of Red Mills Baptist Church are very pleased to hear you say that's no big deal.

Hear me say is I've spoken. You know a thousand different places and which one I was going to that day. Don't have a clue. I don't. I don't know what year it was it. It's a little bit like Michael Fallon.

He can always remember exactly what cruise we were on when something happened and I'm like, I don't know. It was a ship. It was in the water. That's the best I can do.

So, yeah, by the way, Michael Fallon has agreed. I don't know when the actual event will occur, but he's agreed to be one of my Pastor luncheon speakers in the near future. Ah.

Well, he I saw him do his presentation on what's going on in the world just Excuse me just recently and it was very very good. So you'll you'll get a good good talk there. Yeah, but anyways, so there's there's Ten minutes of reminiscing from the old folks.

I hope your rocker is going back and forth as smoothly as mine is.

Well Today is one of those days where and it actually typically is with you and I where we pick a subject. That no doubt will get some folks angry and some folks will be Probably sighing with relief that there are others in agreement with them.

But you and I are reformed Baptists. We are confessionally reformed Baptists. We both adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, we are both members of congregations that adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession and so it Has been grieving us.

I Don't know if you have been grieved or I have been grieved for a longer period of time.

But.

It is a Time for sadness When you see on the one hand Christians To give the good news side of the equation that there are still Christians left that care deeply about theological and doctrinal accuracy.

It's.

Refreshing in a day and age when the mantra is doctrine divides. Let's not harp or focus on theological distinctives. Let's just lift up Jesus. And of course without theological astuteness and biblical faithfulness and accuracy.

What does that even mean? What is which Jesus and what are you doing to lift him up? So you have on the one hand the good news that reformed Baptists have been historically known for people really seeking.

To.

Teach and obey and live out Principles that are actually taught in the scriptures no matter how unpopular they may be During any given era of history, but the sad side of that is when people become So consumed only with that side of things that they become Micromanagers of others beliefs they become anal retentive for lack of a better term they become Really overly obsessive with secondary and tertiary issues to the point where they are saying to men and women That they formally called not only brethren, but close friends and allies in the faith.

They're they're calling into question their theological stance they're calling to the question their right to be considered reformed Baptists. And Disfellowshipping has been occurring and on and on but I'll let you pick up where I just left off.

Yeah, let me name names no. That's the way to do it let's let's let's set it up and then When he's right up to the edge, go ahead and push and see see how long it takes him to hit the bottom I bet she bounces when he hits the bottom.

Yeah. No, seriously, you know when I when I first heard of Reform Baptist. I was I was I think I was in seminary. Yeah, I was in seminary and I picked up a tape at a Berean Christian bookstore that was sitting in a display next to the Bible counter and It said Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, I'd never heard of it before and I had to go actually in the bookstore to Section where I knew they had a handbook on denominations for sale sort of use it as a library and Looked it up and went.

Oh, I I didn't know about this this is and this was you know a couple years after I had started reading Sproul and Stuff like that and going. Oh, okay. Now everything's making sense and coming together and stuff like that and so I was not I was raised as a Baptist but not as a Reformed Baptist, but my dad graduated with Bible Institute and Which is not a certainly anymore any bastion of a Reformed Orthodoxy to be sure but back in the 50s the The textbook that they used was got by a guy named PB Fitzwater who was a Presbyterian and so I had sort of had some of the theology some of the terminology.

But it was sort of I don't know mediated through a General Association of Regular Baptists style of Experience so anyway Obviously, I you know started sending PR BC in the 1989 early 1989 and started speaking at various Reformed Baptist functions over the next decade obviously out there on Long Island.

Speaking it pretty much all the Reformed Baptist churches at one point or another and then Other like-minded churches along those those lines even beyond that you were the very first.

Non worldwide Church of God member to conduct a conference on the Trinity at the Amityville congregation of the worldwide Church of God after they had officially adopted not only the doctrine of the Trinity but also salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and Their abandonment of all of the cultic peculiarities of that cult.

And You were the. I can vividly remember that how people were excited to people were thrilled over that conference. Oh.

Yeah, yeah, I remember that that was quite quite an honor and.

So I.

Remember very clearly Lecturing on the Trinity and attributes of God and and Having no issues whatsoever with my fellow Reformed Baptists nobody came up to me and said you don't really have the whole story or there's more to it or Anything like that at all?

We were all on the same page and we were all saying the same things and That that really extended through the first decade of the 2000s as well. And that means even you know, so about 20 years I Was speaking in Reformed Baptist churches.

I spoke at Trinity and Montville. I you know, I spoke at a number of the Southern California Reformed Baptist churches and There simply wasn't any emphasis in the area of theology proper the doctrine of God the doctrine of Trinity that was Controversial amongst us at all.

It was we were all on the same page. We were saying the same thing and then Just a few years ago now, you know, I haven't been.

I.

Started doing a lot of global travel. So from probably, you know 2014 to 2019 that five years I did much more travel outside the United States than I did inside the United States and. So I wasn't doing as much but that meant I was speaking at Reformed Baptist churches in the UK and Scotland and stuff like that.

But I wasn't doing so much travel inside. I was doing a lot in South Africa Australia Ukraine and I can get I can get around London real well on the tube and everything else so. So there wasn't as much of a connection here in the US during that that particular period of time.

But starting about 2015, there was a pastors conference reform Baptist pastors conference in Southern, California and The the topic of the conference was the simplicity of God now most people hear that term and Let's let's be honest the vast majority of even Reformed Baptists Who have been attending their churches consistently for a lengthy period of time.

Would.

Hesitate to say yes, I can define that term very easily.

And.

Confidently, in fact, in fact, there's something Counterintuitive about that theological label of We who are Reformed. Of Course there is a unique definition of Simplicity being used in this specific doctrine, but when you think about our concept of the vastness and unsearchable Ness of God to call him simple the knee-jerk reaction for a Reformed person who may not be completely familiar with the term that you just used would be what what do you mean?

God's simple.

Right, right. Yeah, and I think that's Let's just. I think most people would honestly say that up until that point in time. The doctrine of simplicity was was not a highly emphasized aspect of Reformed Baptist experience and so When I wrote my book on the Trinity in 1998 I included a brief description of it.

I wrote a article for Ligonier for a table talk I think in 2003 ish Where I had a fairly brief discussion of it and I defined it. But simplicity simply means that God is not made up of parts. God is not complex like a Rubik's Cube, which is made up of all these different blocks.

And so there's not there's nothing more simple Than the nature of God that you compound all those things you know now you've got the nature of God. God's being cannot be divided up and You know, most people do get that because we strongly emphasize The father is not one-third of God.

The spirit is not one-third of God. The Sun's not one-third of God. It's not like you can divide God's being up into into thirds or Hundreds or thousands or anything else? God is not made up of of all these different parts being put together.

Unlike what the Mormons teach and even though the word of faith. Movement. Pentecostals and. Even Jimmy Swaggart who was not a word of faith. Guy. But he fell into that heresy of believing that God the Father had a physical body.

Yeah, well that would be. I was not aware of Jimmy Swaggart's view on on that particular subject but it's specifically in reference to the being of God. What what defines God as God? Cannot be it built up so that if you take a part out God ceases being God so it's that's what simple means.

It's not simple as an easy-to-understand. It's simple as in there is only one substance or being of God that cannot be Divided and and have parts cut out or anything else and so that's what I had always defined it as that is important in dealing with for example Mormonism or or things like that because they tend to think that we Take God's being and divided into thirds and give one of the father and one of the son one of the spirit and stuff like that.

And so they struggle with issues like that. And so and and it's biblical in the sense that Very clearly in Scripture. I think one of the one of the strongest emphasis one strongest evidence is not only of the deity of Christ but of the Unity of the Godhead is the fact that the one divine name Yahweh is Used of Father Son and Holy Spirit.

So those key texts that identify Everybody knows the father's identified as Yahweh, even though I wonder how many Christians if you were if you had to take a quiz You could identify in the New Testament a place where the father would be identified as Yahweh.

It's just assumed because he's simply called God normally.

But.

For example, it's Yahweh that lays our sins upon the Messiah. And so this is clearly the father that does this but in the same way the son is identified as Yahweh and that's a that's a big element of my apologetic with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and Muslims and so on so forth is that.

Especially and I think you've seen the sermon that I did a couple years ago at g3 on Isaiah 6 it was very well received. You have John 1241 saying, you know, John's saying the one that that Isaiah saw was in fact Jesus and Going back to the the temple vision that Isaiah had in Isaiah 6.

So you have a biblical foundation for for saying That God's being is not made up of parts, but God has eternally existed there is only one God. And you can't divide that up to where you've got half of a Yahweh over here and half of a Yahweh over there or something along those lines.

So while the term is not strictly biblical as if there is a verse that says God's being is simple. It is the consistent understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning the nature of God's being and.

So that's how I defined it. That's how I had always heard it discussed and Then you join to that the fact that We as Reformed Baptists You cannot interpret the 1689 Without recognizing the deep. Well, the only you know, it's an appropriate term the deep animosity that exists between the Writers of the 1689 and the Roman Catholic system.

I mean When when there are there are specific references? So much of the terminology is obviously flowing out of the continued Protestant Reformation the original of the original 69.

Identified the Pope as the Antichrist.

Right, right, but then the whole that even even the theological terminology that we use in regards to the Lord's Supper and the Concept of the ordinances or sacraments and things like that. That's in the background.

It's very very clearly there and so my experience in amongst Reformed Baptists from the late 1980s. Well into this decade the last decade Was one that did not include a high Level of admiration of Thomas Aquinas.

There was far more interest in in the Reformers and there was a recognition that the medieval period there was a Real issue in regards to the overlaying of scripture with human tradition and the loss of balance there and and And things along those lines.

And so as I said in 2015, there was a pastor's conference and dr. James dole's all presented on the subject of simplicity and One of the elements of Simplicity that he Presented and emphasized that is really the issue now.

I call it the extended assertion or the strong assertion of Simplicity so some people call it strong strong simplicity versus weak simplicity or so on and so forth, but When you adopt or when you take into consideration the metaphysical assumptions of Thomas Aquinas, which most of us know absolutely positively nothing about and while Aquinas was a brilliant theologian and while Aquinas was significantly better in a sense than much of what Rome had produced before and after him Especially amongst many of the Pope's for that matter Still he was a Roman Catholic.

He did not believe in sola scriptura. Norman Geisler tried to come up with the idea that he actually did but it's just really you can't you can't go there and.

Trent really Trent years later did not. Trent really echo. His understanding of justification is a radical understanding.

Yeah, well, yeah, certainly they well, they certainly felt that they were. There was there was a great desire to Stick with Aquinas's formulations because the divine doctor had become the standard of orthodoxy at that point in time.

Though that wouldn't necessarily be the case today. For example, his doctor his views on some of his views on Mary. Were opposed to what has been defined as dogma since then. But I don't know if you saw that great video somebody put out recently where they took that that tape stuff that you can slap on you know on a on a Leaking barrel, yes the water.

You know it cut the board cut the boat in half and then tape it back up and take it out on the you know. They they took that commercial. And they edited over the sound with fix it with Newman Cardinal and so any do you find any of the early church fathers contradicting what you believe is the wrong Roman Catholic fix it with.

Newman.

And it was really well done and that's exactly what they do it it's Wells development and.

Who are unfamiliar with Cardinal Newman? He was a Anglican convert to Roman Catholicism.

Right who came up with what's called the development hypothesis that that that the Divine tradition was given to the church like in the form of an acorn. But it grows and develops over time and that's how because Newman had opposed.

The.

Promulgation of the concept of the infallibility of the Pope. He knew that that was not the church believed. They just it just isn't it's obvious. Given honorius and everything else that happened that the early church did not believe in in papal infallibility.

Well once Vatican one Defined it then he had to get in line and come up with a way of explaining how this all happens. And so the development hypothesis is for Roman Catholics We want to continue to pretend that theirs is the church for 2 ,000 years but then you run into facts that demonstrate that it's not and so you just slap on some Newman and.

It was also famous. It was also famous for saying that to know history is to cease to be Protestant.

Yeah to go deep into history is to cease to be Protestants and so. And that was Horrifically ironic given what he himself did. So anyways so Aquinas You have to explain a few things and and he wasn't certainly as bad as a lot of the Pope's and stuff like that but he was deeply influenced by Aristotle and Aristotle's doctrine of God is Not in any way shape or form able to be made.

Consistent.

With a Christian understanding of God and so it has been said that what Aristotle did is he he or what Aquinas did is he tried to baptize Aristotle and Fix the places where where he didn't quite get it, right?

Well, the problem is the entire metaphysical concept of risk Chileanism is based upon certain Philosophical assumptions that just simply are not biblical in any way.

In fact, let's pick up where you left off on Aristotelianism and Thomas Aquinas because we have to go to our first break right now and If anybody has a question that they would like to ask dr. White our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson a gmail .com. First name city and state of residence and country of residence.

We'll be right back after these messages. Don't go away.

Since.

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This is Chris Arnson. And if you've been listening to iron sharpens iron radio daily for quite a while lately You've been realizing that there have been reruns every single day. Today is Tuesday, February 1st 2022 and at least on that date.

This is not a rerun because I'm sure this will be a rerun eventually and our guest is dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Our topic today is how to prevent the implosion of biblically faithful theological movements when disagreements occur over secondary and tertiary issues and.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. If you have a question Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence. And We were speaking or James White was speaking right before the break about Thomas Aquinas and.

The.

Aristotelian philosophies that he taught and have been now adopted by a growing number of Reformed Protestants including Reformed Baptists. And if you could pick up where you left off.

Yeah, well what I was specifically referring to was Aristotle's doctrine of God simply doesn't doesn't fit with the Christian concept and especially his idea of the unmoved mover there. There are there's all this Greek philosophy obviously in Aristotle's assumptions Such as the idea of motion in God there can be no Motion in God what whatever that is supposed to mean?

I mean, I can read I can read my Bible Carefully I can read it in the original languages I can read it in the original context and I I don't really end up with a Metaphysic that is emphasizing issues of motion in God and stuff like that.

But certainly Aristotle comes up with that and Aquinas is influenced by that. He does try to filter some of these things out, but he the point is he's not completely successful and so doing and So make a long story short and should to get to the you know Get out of the weeds and get back to where we we probably need to be.

The assertion the strong assertion of divine simplicity based upon the metaphysics of Thomas Aquinas is that if you can conceptualize if you can think of and make differentiation of The attributes of God so God's omnipotence his omniscience his justice his his love his mercy if if if you can distinguish those things in your mind.

Then and and if anyone has ever studied the ontological argument that was put forth By Anselm, you you know. Where some of this is coming from, you know some of the parts is anyways if you can distinguish parts then those parts actually exist and Here's the problem.