October 6, 2016 Show with Dr. George Grant on “The 499th Anniversary of the Protestant Reformation” PLUS “Becoming a Serious & Productive Reader (Wading Through Garbage in Search of Jewels)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

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Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Thursday on the sixth day of October 2016.

So delighted to have back on the program Dr. George Grant's pastor of parish

Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America congregation and

Denomination I should say in Franklin, Tennessee.

He is the founder of New College in Franklin, Tennessee.

And also president of the Kings Meadows Study Center and founder of Franklin Classical

School also in Franklin, Tennessee.

Today we're going to be discussing two important topics once one is we're going to be addressing the

499th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation and then the following hour. We'll have dr. Grant discuss

Becoming a serious and productive reader Wading through garbage in search of jewels and it's our

honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. George Grant I'm doing great,

and I'm very excited that our last inch interview Has also led

to a possible publishing project with solid ground Christian books.

Well, I would love to see that happen.

That would be a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Well looks like it said in that way for my last discussion with Mike Gadosh the founder of

solid ground books and.

First of all, I know that you've already Given our listeners in the past or the recent past

An explanation of parish Presbyterian Church or a description of it, but we have new listeners all the time.

So why don't you let our listeners know about parish Presbyterian Church?

America.

We've been involved in church planting for a number of years and

we're now in the midst of our third church plant from

congregation meaning that we are we we hold to the doctrines of

grace and And the principles of the Reformation while at the same time communicating

clearly to the 21st century.

So form of worship that we call confessional.

It's

neither contemporary

nor gospel.

Infiltrate the whole of life and all of very active

as As Christians should be amen.

And for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the Westminster confession and the three forms of unity.

Those are Basically confessional stage statements which are summaries of

what You believe the Bible teaches these are not inventions of men, but these are summaries of

biblical teaching, correct?

That is a great way to sort of systemize our thinking

the truths of the scriptures.

Are.

Interwoven all through the Bible and so you don't go to the Bible and find the

Section on the Holy Spirit or the section right.

Which government and so what the.

What the confessions and creeds Catechisms do is they help

those topics so we can understand them better and and articulate them more clearly.

But but all of the best confessions and creeds all say

the final standard of scripture.

Creeds and confessions are man's Interpretation of the scripture.

Scripture is the final authority and the final word.

I love the way that Westminster concession says it right at the

beginning simply that That the scriptures are by day make of

they are are.

Therefore we rest solely on the scriptures.

But because we are thinking people and we have to communicate the creeds help

us Communicate those the confessions was to

communicate those truths to a whole new generation.

Amen.

And I've as I have said on other programs perhaps with other guests.

But no matter how many times someone may criticize or condemn the use of

creeds or confessions they really in ignorance or naivete are

Confessional themselves.

They just have bad confessions.

Because every time you tell anyone what you believe the Bible teaches you are Basically

declaring a creed or confession of faith.

Yes.

Yes, that's right.

Yes, well.

Exactly.

Yeah, I got a chuckle at a church Bible conference that I was at years ago when

the.

The.

Guest speaker was talking about The specific group that I was

I was visiting.

They were saying that we have a history of believing in no creed.

But Christ no confession, but the scriptures.

And I said This this track that you have in your your lobby.

It lists a whole bunch of things that you do and things that you don't do and It

says that you you know ministers don't wear clerical robes you wear business suits and

You only allow men to be ministers and there's a whole bunch of things in here.

Don't you realize that this is a confessional statement this this pamphlet that you have in your your

Lobby.

But they don't think and of course the answer to that is.

And by the way, I did I did agree with some of the stuff in that pamphlet.

But this is the 499th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation this

month Marks that anniversary.

And specifically for those listening who don't know October 31st, which is more commonly

known as Halloween.

October 31st is the date that many churches around the globe

celebrate as the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation because of Martin Luther's nailing

the 95 theses to the church door at the Castle Church in Wittenberg Germany Roman

Catholic Church.

He was a Augustinian monk and He was a lot of people

really don't understand What he was doing.

They think that perhaps this was a more in -depth Protestant manifesto that he

was nailing to the door, but was really just a protest to the selling of indulgences at that time, wasn't it?

Well, it was a protest for the selling of indulgences, but it did raise after

all was 95 You know,

but therefore was for a conversation to

wrestle with some of the corruptions that he saw that were

very evident to almost all in the late medieval church

as the Renaissance really took off in Italy and started to spread throughout the rest of Christendom

those so became more and more evident.

And so he was calling for conversation.

One of the things that we have to remember is that Reformation literally means Taking a

new life to that existing form.

Luther wasn't trying to establish a new Denomination there was no notion of

that.

It was what what can we do to bring the gospel to bear on

on these evils he got in

1517 to that call for discussion is Really what

the Protestant break with Roman Catholicism?

It was his desire.

It was John Calvin's desire.

It was Martin Bucer's desire it was their desire to actually

see the church remain unified but grow in grace and address the The

very evidence corrupted while 1517

triggered all the things that the Reformation proper Doesn't

actually get underway for a number of years after that

a common misconception that that Luther Sort of nailed

his

ache

with the beginning of what he hoped would be a healthy discussion about

how to to bring about real change and.

That really is one of the great Distinctives of the Reformation is the recognition that

because we are all sinners and because all human Institutions are tainted by

that sin the church

Articulated by the reformers later a close simple referendum.

Yes, we're we're reformed.

Reforming we are sinners and we're never going to arrive at the the

perfect Sort of polity for church and and life and culture.

Until that glory on of God and the King of Kings and the Lord of

Lords.

Is before us.

Yes, after all we can't all be reformed Baptist now.

I Have to take a jab at my Presbyterian brothers whenever I can but.

But.

And of course.

You know a lot of Roman Catholics view Luther as a villain for causing a schism.

But let's not forget.

He had to flee for his life.

He would have been executed if he'd stuck around.

Exactly. I have to recognize that Did

not really start of

the day Desiderius Erasmus

Was he actually worked on?

Greek that brought clarity

at a time when certain words like repent or justify have been

corrupted by and the rites and rituals of the church rather

than Understood in their proper biblical context.

He brought this authoritative new Greek

text but people like Luther and other professors of

theology Could actually start to wrestle with the meaning of the scriptures.

Uncluttered by the accretions of the medieval church.

Erasmus Really is the father of of the Reformation in a lot of ways.

There were great morning stars of the Reformation that preceded by 150 years Luther who

also pointed the way people like John Wycliffe and John Husk and some would even say Peter Waldo.

And there were many before that including many of the patristic church fathers including

Augustine of Hippo so we can't really isolate Martin Luther

as Only guy who presented ready

by 1514 some three years before.

You have somebody like Oryx Wingly in the in the city of Zurich

Was wrestling with many of the same things and was taking Erasmus's

Greek New Testament and starting to see

Remarkable

now you mentioned Erasmus before.

Although you may view him as someone who was a part of the snowball rolling in

regard to the Reformation.

He did though However disagree with Luther on a very key point about the bondage of the will do you not the

great? debate from the Reformation that they had.

He did and

Correspondence at all the way up

through the time when he carried on a

Melanchthon.

Erasmus got cold feet that he began to distant

and then that even.

That the real breach between them Occurred which was not over the doctrine of justification.

Rather it was that that

was a whole different thing.

He decided that he wanted to Commit himself

Because of his relationship with Medici at

that time controlled the papacy under Leo Pope

Leo so is is that goes into that that then created the breach

between Luther and Erasmus.

We do have a listener in Kinross Scotland who Apologizes that his question

is somewhat off topic.

But I'm gonna let him ask it because of your Background in politics

and writing on politics and so on.

Murray in Kinross Scotland says with both current presidential

candidates so unappealing and with the Christian vote over there in the states

being quite a sizable consideration Why hasn't there been more

of a campaign to break the two -party system and support an independent Christian candidate.

Most reformed Christians, I know will vote Trump just to stop Hillary from getting in but why not

vote for someone else?

Am I missing something here?

Yeah, no, you're

not missing

perspective and I think my

explanation is storm.

Which is just another way of saying that we may be seeing the judgment of God and.

So the answer to the to the question why hasn't there been?

Another candidate because of the peculiar

the American states.

It is not very easy to get ballot

actually have to be parties.

In order to have a state the four established parties

are the libertarians the greens.

And then the Republicans and the Democrats small party

and party there's the the US Constitution Party,

they're they're limited at

right in Possibilities in many

states you even have to qualify and gain access to be able to write in.

So what that means is that by the time?

It became evident the Democrats and the Republicans were putting up

objectionable

really too late to gain ballot

access and of wealth.

Any more than 25 states and so that's a part of the reason why there wasn't

a Dramatic and

one of the

things

reformed centers

in America.

Well, thank

you

Murray and

Ken

Ross

Scotland

and.

I'm gonna ask a question that kind of dovetails what Murray asked.

Into our main theme for the first hour.

I have very conservative traditionalist.

Real.

Right -wing Roman Catholic friends and acquaintances, especially since I have been involved in

orchestrating public moderated theological debates over the last

25 years or so.

Between primarily between my friend. Dr. James R. White a reformed scholar and theologian and Roman

Catholic opponents.

Although we haven't had one with a Roman Catholic in a few years now but I'm hoping to

revive those but I have I've become friends with as a result with the number of

traditionalist Catholics, even though they strongly oppose my views on major things and One of the

things that I have heard From some of them is basically they blame the

Reformation for the liberalism in the United States and Even if you could

believe this the liberalism within the Roman Catholic Church, they blame Protestant

influences on the Catholic Church to bring about Vatican to

and to really start the snowball rolling to where we have Pope Francis a Pope that

many Catholics are quietly in their closets.

Very.

Discouraged with even though they still revere him in some extent as a as their Pope unless you talk

about a say vacatist or some extreme sect within Rome that does not believe

that the current Popes are legitimate, but like Mel Gibson used to be and so on.

But.

The.

These these folks will say the Protestant Reformation is to blame and if the United

States and the world Were really under the yoke of Rome and that

never that schism never happened in the 16th century We would see a world that is much

more God honoring and moral.

What is your opinion of that kind of rhetoric?

Simplified statements about a whole series of rather complex things.

That there were.

Reformed themselves in

a more

biblical have been crushed.

By.

The Ecclesiastical wrong

to blame Protestantism is

forces within the Roman Catholic Church brought Pope

Francis to our

ongoing trajectory and in

Pope Benedict and Aberration

is that

those traditionalists Brought back of Roman

Catholic including all.

You know,

my response to my Roman Catholic friends and I have lots of them I love them dearly.

I stand with them on the pro -life issue I yearn for them

to Be able to

have

from the doctrines

of grace a platform for balance,

you know.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding also that when Luther

very excitedly Enthusiastically went on a pilgrimage from Germany

to Rome before he Nailed those 95 theses when he was still a

faithful Augustinian monk He was appalled by the immoral sewer that he found

in Rome with priests Routinely visiting prostitutes and all kinds of things going on.

I was appalled and I think that was one of the things and led him

begin to have the kinds of questions that he had.

You know leading up to from the time of his pilgrimage to Rome Up to the time of

the nailing of the 95 theses on the Wittenberg church door He began to explore

in deep research and then eventually teaching the book of Romans.

The questions that were lodged in his mind from that trip and from his own tortured experience

in realizing his own sinfulness and wickedness and the impossibility of a righteous God

ever seeing anything in him That could justify his sin all of that

caused him to to read the book of Romans with new eyes.

Of course because of the

clarified words

like

repent

make righteous He was

on sin

Met the noia to turn completely around and the word justified

Litterature

that that

we have to

go to a

break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr George grant our email address is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chr is Arnzen at gmail .com.

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And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

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Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and

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I.

Think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer

Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie bachum Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr George Grant

pastor of parish Presbyterian Church in Franklin, Tennessee.

And also president of the Kings Meadows Study Center.

We are discussing for the first hour the 499th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation and then during the

second hour We intend to focus on becoming a serious and productive reader.

Wading through garbage in search of jewels.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with your own question, our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We have our J in Westchester County, New York who says.

It seems to me that modern -day Lutherans of the conservative and confessional variety

have maintained Luther's Sacramentalism, but it appears that they have

lost his concept of the bondage of the will and Theologically

appear to be more like Arminians.

Can you address that issue?

But he was not a systematic

theologian.

You read his relations and you see he's a careful expositor

and He was he was Incredibly gifted at Preaching.

He was a wonderful Translator in fact of the Bible

the German language more profoundly Even than the King James

Version has shaped the English language.

But what he was not was a systematic theologian.

What he was not was an administrator and organizer.

He left those responsibilities Including

some of my theology

profoundly then I think that we can

attribute many of

like the departure from the sovereignty of God.

The.

Compromises on Things like church

sovereignty those kinds of things.

We can attribute those to the masterful Organizing.

Yeah, and

of course, I think that the majority of Lutherans though would deny that that's the case.

I've spoken to some of them.

I've I've Mentioned that to them about Melanchthon being really the

one with the dominant theology of Third Millennium Lutheranism,

and they of course say that that's erroneous, but yeah.

They say it's erroneous.

But without evidence we

know the primary works the Augsburg Confession for

instance.

Philip Melanchthon.

Huge controversies even following Luther's death where you have a

kind of splintering of Lutheranism.

It's something that people like

but of the last Excuse me

Gustav all in the the scholar of the last generation

evangelical Lutherans He pointed to this fact.

So while Some Lutherans want to deny it.

It's a fact that the direction that

Lutheranism went in in terms of systematic theology was Really determined

by Philip Melanchthon and Luther himself.

I mean we are all.

Works in progress, but Luther himself was really a work in progress.

Because he for for a number of years Was still retaining

some Roman baggage I think it wasn't until you know close to him

departing the earth into glory With Christ that he that he still was retaining

some Mariola tree Concepts and so on.

Am I right on that?

You're absolutely all works in progress

we're all and in our and so the

fact that we are.

Changing our views over time is a good thing.

Not a bad thing but you know information

Martin Luther was a traditional Augustinian

Roman

Catholic.

By study Sometimes by convincing

he was forced to choose one of the reasons why

I think That in some ways we ought to be equally celebrating some of

the other figures in Sunday Pierre Viret

of Lausanne at Martin Bucer of Strasbourg and Guillaume Farrell of

Neuchatel and Heinrich Bollinger of Zurich and Johannes

Brüggenhagen of Denmark and Hans Tausen of Denmark

and You know Zwingli and Zürich these figures

parts of multiple Reformations that kind of came together to create the Protestant

movement.

Yes.

If we use an athletic analogy the Reformation

of the

papers that

involved a whole whole.

Yeah, what a night.

What a great idea for a conference where a different figure from the Reformation

is Basically Taught about expanded on by different

speakers who are knowledgeable experts on each of those men that you mentioned.

That's a put a seed in my mind there for an idea for the future here.

Kind of thing this time has come.

Yeah, definitely.

Let's see here.

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know in your opinion?

Do you think you're Ulrich Zwingli?

Departed from Rome farther from any of the Reformers in regard to the

ordinances or sacraments.

Perhaps although I think I think the most dramatic departure was.

Was Martin Brutzer who helped shape John Calvin's thinking on the sacraments?

Because what you what what you see with with Zwingli is he sort of

revolted in.

The poem the sacraments were

mere memorials said was that the sacraments really mean something.

They proclaimed the gospel to us as means of grace.

The preaching of the word is

that the

sacraments are a means of grace.

When we come to the Lord's Supper table, we're actually having the gospel preached to us all over

again.

That's a declaration about the sacraments that is of an

entirely different order.

So in other words, there's a linear progression between

Roman Catholicism, but what Brutzer Espouses is something wholly

other and.

That.

Becomes the basis for continental reformed

Roman to Protestantism.

Focuses largely on Departure

that.

Thank you Christopher.

One thing that is also said of the

Doctrines of the Reformation especially in regard to the Calvinist understanding of

perseverance and the preservation of the Saints is that it has

created a blueprint for licentiousness and that

the understanding that that you cannot lose your salvation is The reason why we

have rampant immorality in the world Where people professing to be

Christian feel they can get away scot -free with this kind of behavior all because

of this teaching of John Calvin that you can't lose your salvation and obviously we would.

Say this is a teaching of the Bible, but how do you respond to that?

Well, first of all, John Calvin did not phrase it in anything like that what

he declared was.

The.

Perseverance of the Saints.

Yes.

And that's a very different thing once John

Calvin did not.

Write.

What he taught was that?

Those who are redeemed will continue to grow in grace.

And When a person's name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life That

continuing in grace, it's a

very different thing than once saved always saved.

Once saved always saved.

Basically says sign your name on the dotted line when you walk the aisle at the end of a service and

You've got fire insurance policy for the rest of your life, right?

That might be better named.

Once you think you're saved you are saved, you know.

That would be that like another way of labeling that erroneous teaching because even though you and

I would believe If you are truly saved You are going to always be

saved.

But the the people that use that phrase once saved always saved and even the the term eternal

security I believe is a true Statement, but it's inadequate and

insufficient.

That's why the perseverance and the preservation of the Saints is a much more descriptive idea of

the state of a Christian would you Agree or disagree with what I said about those phrases.

Yeah, I think what we've got to do is we've got

to stop having pop.

If

you

want to say here's what John Calvin taught or here's what the doctrines of grace are

actually quote John Calvin.

Actually quote John Calvin as they criticize John Calvin.

Amen, we have Harrison from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who

says Chris you have had guests on your program on both sides

of the free offer of the gospel issue.

What is your guests view on that?

He's probably speaking specifically of the fact that I have had a couple of folks in the past who I

greatly admire from the Protestant Reform denomination.

Not not that I agree with everything that they teach and I have also had.

Specifically men teach on the subject of the free offer of the gospel and common grace and

so on.

So I've had both views expressed in my show.

What is your view in that in those areas?

Gospel the sovereignty of God and the mechanism by which God calls

to himself that that

mystery is not entirely cleared up and so

there is plenty of room for good brothers and sisters to

Disagree on.

But what we do know is this

both in decree

only hope of redemption in the

finished work of Jesus Christ.

We're to proclaim it we're to go forth to all of the nation's proclaiming

it and We are to trust that the Holy Spirit will do the work

of bringing in the harvest.

That's a think That that is about as

clear make it even the Protestant Reform folks agree with that even they do.

Yeah, yeah, I think.

To offer the God

sovereignty of God, I do not believe that I believe that we are to proclaim

The marvels.

I think we're to shout it from the rooftops who believe That God is

sovereign and he is going to redeem his own.

Do you think a lot of the dispute over these concepts is semantical?

I?

Think I think it's actually more in terms of ritual.

I think it has to do with things like altar call.

I think it has to do with With the anxious bench.

I think it has to do with revivalistic techniques.

Those infiltrate and so yes, there's some semantics that's involved here

but it's semantics that has been muddied by 200 years of practice that we

might want to quibble with the way the practices are carried out and.

That that kind of muddies the whole conversation we do have.

Let's see here.

We have Murray from Kinross Scotland again.

He wants to ask a question about the actual subject we're discussing now rather than a political one.

Murray asks.

If a church has limited Resources and is able to perhaps stage just one event to

commemorate the Reformation in your opinion Would it be more urgent to hold a teaching event?

To better inform believers of the truths of the Reformation or to have an evangelistic session.

Giving the great ignorance around us in those who do not even usually come to

church.

Wow, that's like saying which of your sisters do you think is the prettiest?

What probably

depends upon the Unique circumstances of the community in which a local

I believe very strongly that

We need to do everything that we can in every way that we can use

of the gospel in an articulate Affectual way as

we can to the communities that we live in meaning that we've got to speak to

the vernacular of our time and Our

plight

lean towards

are woefully ignorant.

And then you may need to have some just substantial teaching about the

legacy, but what I would say is Start having that teaching right now every single

Lord's Day and inform Your congregation of the richness of their

legacy right here and now.

So that when we come around one year from now Are you able to stage an event that

that they need all of them?

Well, thank.

Oh, yes, and Murray just has one final question.

Having had a quick look at your church's website What on earth is

Kingdom Tide?

That's a great question.

One of the things that you

think about seasons at all think about.

The seasons of Christ's nativity and of his about

from the book

of beyond the narrative

life and death and Now we're seeing is

to do and teach so Kingdom Tide is just a time when

As a church we emphasize the work of the kingdom.

It's it's not a reiterated

life the ministry of the death and the resurrection of Christ's

life.

Death resurrection Applies to

kind of working through the ideas of the book of Acts and the book of

Romans thing right now through the book of Revelation.

You know and one of the things that is clearly lost in the minds of many Roman

Catholics is the fact that the reformers were trying to

recover and restore the teachings of the ancient church of the

Apostolic Church that they believed many of the the church

fathers had retained.

And whereas the typical Roman Catholic apologist or even average Roman Catholic

individual will merely look at the Reformation as a

series of novelties or inventions That were introduced into Christendom for

the first time in history, and in fact, I can even remember my father back in

the.

1970s.

He was raised Episcopalian.

My mother was Roman Catholic and He converted to Catholicism.

Thinking that this would somehow bring greater unity to the family, but in his mind he

said Protestant Protestantism came after Catholicism so

therefore Catholicism must be closer to the ancient truth and the Bible and

therefore, that's how he logically concluded that That the the Protestant

faith was a newer faith and therefore more of a novel one

farther separated from the authors of Scripture.

But but the performers were the ones trying to restore those teachings.

Weren't they that had been abandoned by Rome who covered the glorious gospel

with a mountain of ritual and sacerdotalism.

Totally buried the

church father.

Yes again, you know people who criticize Calvin

read Calvin.

Calvin quoted John And.

Far more than Pope Leo ever did.

In fact, Pope Leo probably couldn't even pronounce Gregory Nazianzus and

and and Calvin worked through the church fathers in Great detail.

You read Calvin's sermons and they are

Augustine from from You know Jerome from the whole panoply

really one of the great distinctives of the Reformation.

The Reformers cover the teachings

and we are going to be going to another break.

In a moment if you'd like to join us on the air as well Our email address is

Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Please provide your first name and your city in state and your

country of residence if you live outside of the USA as well and that's Chris

Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com

and Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with. Dr. George Grant right after these messages.

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Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh vice and praise mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Bodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway

Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the

pillars of what?

G3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

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Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Where am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today is dr. George Grant who is the author of numerous books?

pastor of parish Presbyterian Church in Franklin, Tennessee and President of the Kings

Meadow Study Center if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We began our interview for the first hour discussing the 499th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation and the second hour we are going to be Discussing an important

issue becoming a serious and productive reader.

So we welcome your questions on either of those issues or anything that you happen to be perhaps

aware.

That dr. Grant has an area of knowledge on that.

He's written about and so on.

In fact, we do have a first -time questioner Jeremiah in Dover, New

Hampshire in Stratford County Says what is your favorite

story about a reformed father's life?

Whoo, that's a great question.

I Love that question, I guess probably my favorite story of.

Of.

Parenting at all the

life of John Calvin's

wife He was left

adopted children from her previous

marriage that Following the funeral.

He was grief -stricken and overwhelmed.

But.

He Determined that that night he would cook them all dinner

on the on on the family and

And he made a horrible mess of it because he was not exactly a

that they laughed themselves heartily through.

That day.

Obviously a broken -hearted over loss and yet here's this tenderness

of home life.

I just love that snapshot and that's a snapshot that hardly anybody would think was possible with John

Calvin because of a preconceived.

False preconceived notion they have about it.

It's a shame because he was

a man of such rich human tenderness and You see that

he certainly hansity and focus You

that comes through in his writing and the tenderness

of this.

I recommend that people read the

life of John Calvin by his close friend and fellow worker Theodore Bayes.

It's a marvelous thing.

And all of that tenderness.

Does a Bayes is much more concerned about all of the

theological? issues the the great battles of.

The.

Reformation in the city of Geneva.

The tenderness nevertheless comes by the way.

Jeremiah in Dover, New Hampshire.

You since you're a first -time questioner.

You're getting absolutely free of charge a beautiful Edition of the New American Standard

Bible.

It is really Practical because it's it's small enough to carry in a briefcase.

It's not quite pocket -sized, but in the winter you could certainly put it in a coat pocket.

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It's a gorgeous Edition with an embossed cross on the cover and that's

compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible who have been Sponsors of iron sharpens iron since our

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CV bbs .com at CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm we thank

Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of iron sharpens iron.

Since we went on the air and by the way, Jeremiah I need your full mailing address though to get that shipped out

to you because all we have is Dover, New Hampshire.

So we look forward to hearing from you and sending out that free Bible to you.

And now to a great Jeremiah, you're gonna love that.

Yeah, you should.

And I really I'm very thankful beyond description to the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible because they have been amongst my chief means of support For many years even

before I started the broadcast iron sharpens iron when I began Orchestrating the live public

theological debates that I've done since 1995.

They have been right there behind me helping me And sponsoring me and so forth.

So I I am forever grateful to them.

And it's a great translation of the Bible as well.

We are now transitioning over to becoming a serious and productive reader and

This is a very important thing because in essence It

is just as important what you're reading as it is who you're hearing preach because

a book is really just a Sermon in written

form, you know, I mean people don't even sometimes realize the importance of that

so if you're feeding your mind with junk and heretical nonsense

Six days out of the week and just hearing your pastor preach soundly from the Word of God or perhaps

Unfortunately, you're in a bad church and you're hearing heresy there as well.

But this is a very important issue, isn't it?

Particularly at a time when we are Bombarded with instantaneous and

oftentimes erroneous Information.

I oftentimes tell my students that one of the best things that they could do to sort of.

We.

Do every morning for

about a week the Fox News website and

then to the CNN news website and

oftentimes what you'll discover is What not

news?

Different plants of propaganda.

Disillusioning kind of exercise to do and sometimes when they cover the same story,

it's in opposite directions.

And you realize okay, I'm not getting a straight story here and of course social

media makes things even worse and so what we consume the way we shape our minds

and The opportunities that we have with books to slowly

good true

valuable exercise.

Today and at any other time and by the way,

I never thought that my friend.

Over at spoons cafe the owner of spoons cafe who has catered some of my iron sharpens iron pastors luncheons.

I never thought when he said fit this into your show today that I was possibly going to be able to break it

up but because of what you just said he he shared with me a CNN news

video of a woman in the crowd during one of the

protests.

I think it may have been one of the protests in Chicago or perhaps.

In.

Maryland, I'm not really sure which one but a woman was introduced

by one of the anchor women saying that this woman that they were about to hear from

was basically a modern -day hero calling for peace in a

dangerous Atmosphere of violence and you hear the woman in the crowd saying

don't bring violence in this neighborhood.

Keep your violence out of here.

You know, this is our community and and she was going on and on Give it with a strong

loud message of peace and then then the rest of the video was but this is the whole film of

this Incident and the same woman goes on to say you can go to the suburbs and burn

their houses down.

Go to the suburbs bring it over there.

And she was of course using profanity to bring it all over there.

You burn down their grocery stores burn down their gas stations not ours.

So it was just a really a fictionalized Capsulization of what this

woman was.

It's hard to tell whether or not a news story that we see on Cine.

It's hard to tell if it's the Babylon B or the onion

Story.

Well, I know we've already done a an interview on Chalmers one of

your great heroes of the faith Thomas Chalmers, and I know that you wanted to intertwine

His legacy into our whole discussion on becoming a serious and productive reader.

So Spurgeon was a plagiarist.

Of Chalmers, in fact, if you read commenting on the commentators that which is the third

volume of his lectures to my students

all of Chalmers works including his

magisterial commentary on the book of Romans.

One of the things that that that Thomas Chalmers Constantly taught his students

was that it was important to not only Read good books, but to

create an inheritance for future generations.

By collecting books into Libraries, it's one of the reasons why you can

go to the ends of the earth and wherever Scottish missionaries went there are

invariably libraries that that were established right alongside the schools

the churches and the hospitals.

The idea really is that we have to have deep Multi

-generational discipleship and I know every parent

desires for their children to be good readers.

The best way for children to learn how to be good readers is if they see

moms and dads Regularly making a priority of reading in the home

not just reading children's stories, but Kids need to be able to see that dad

Comes home and he doesn't just flip on SportsCenter.

He sits down and he's wrestling with the Puritans and he's Thinking about the events of the day of

the application the biblical worldview to all of that Thomas Chalmers

that had that kind of an effect on people like Spurgeon he also

was a part he was

Dubinier who was who

documented the history of the Reformation at a time when much Reformation history

in the middle

of ungrown then

Interned and cycled and was a huge influence on wrote

voluminously created Libraries of books that are incredibly

valuable to this day.

Impress is returning to print virtually all of the works of

Grounds and Prince toers.

Young disciple Abraham Kuyper.

Abraham Kuyper in turn was a disciple or two men.

As.

Widely divert

and even Herman Bobbitt

Vision on and one of Cornelius that

a tremendous effect on the shape of modern Evangelicalism and

was one of my chief disciples.

And I'm sure I had a huge impact on iron sharpens iron

listeners rich long line and legacy

of people who found books and ideas Essential and

the churches around them being lost in

our day if we don't inculcate.

Good happy

reading.

And it's one of my great passions to teach my students journal

how to Process to actually

collect to libraries that they can then to their

grandchildren.

Yes, and just a bit of advice for our listeners if you Want to also help iron sharpens iron

go to the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service website cv bbs .com

cv bbs .com and You can ask them

About the banner of truth books that they have published by Jean -Henri

Merle de Abagné the people's historian

of Philosophy of history and historical writing and others.

So and of course you have the banner of truth website itself banner of truth org.

You can go to that get the titles Of the books and then go to

cv bbs .com cv bbs .com and and order the books from there

because Cv bbs as I keep repeating is one of our sponsors of iron sharpens iron.

So I go to.

Move up in the ace histories of the Reformation

multiple multiple volumes eight volumes of one set and five volumes in the other.

I Go to them and and Draw from them almost every

single week of my life.

These are invaluable works.

Well, I appreciate the the advice and Let's see, we

have Linda in hilltop lakes, Texas.

What do you know about dr. Morton Martyn Lloyd -Jones?

This this is only we only have like 40 minutes left Linda.

That's kind of a broad question.

Well, actually she clarifies is it clarifies it a little bit.

Let's see, I have heard that he was interested in the charismatic movement.

Okay, there's a little bit more of a narrowed focus in Regard to Linda from

hilltop lakes, Texas and her question on Martin Lloyd -Jones.

If I would jump a man who was very interested in the reform of

the renewal of the Church of Jesus Christ and

like so many.

In.

The world of the church.

He was not immediately Dismissive any of the new movements

that emerged and so he was indeed Interested in

a witness early

movement as he was in desiring to see The the full

power of the Holy Spirit at work and while that may

sound to our modern ears Like exactly the same thing.

It is most assuredly not

in People like Edward Irving one of the pioneers of modern

Pentecostalism.

And part of the reason that he was interested in early at one time

So was precisely because of his high regard for Thomas

Chalmers

mind.

Well,

thank you very much.

Linda from Hilltop Lake, Texas and.

I.

Have heard from those Brothers in Christ who are not

Charismatic although they have a great affection towards our charismatic and

Pentecostal brethren and Who believe that?

Dr. Jones was far less harsh against them than many of us can be

prone to be.

I.

Think it's absolutely true.

I think the same could be said of John R. W. Stott who was contemporary of

It was a young young pastor when Lloyd -Jones was in

The J. I.

Pack's work in which he surveys the various views of the Holy Spirit

Keeping in step with the Spirit.

I think he is quite generous in in that work.

It's oftentimes a difficult thing when we want to

learn about X make

blanket statements and that that's Usually not a very good way.

Dealing with an excess is to throw the baby out with the bath.

And so I think what Lloyd -Jones did was he was he was very generous to

other brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I think that's that's something Beautiful to be emulated in his character and his work

and we have Seth from Randleman, North.

Carolina who says what books would you recommend for a lay preacher?

Someone who preaches two to three times a month, not a pastor.

I would recommend a handful of really good

that

I

might actually start.

With a couple good study Bibles like the Reformation Study

Bible and the Reformation Heritage Study Bible.

That those are great places to start but then you know, I

love and appreciate the series.

That.

Bible speaks that

J .A. Motier

Evangelical, John R. W. Stott has several volumes in it.

I also really like the Wellwyn series of Bible commentaries.

Quite excellent and all in paperback and fairly inexpensive.

It's not necessary to go and spend just a ton of money

To start to build a library.

But but I would do that.

I would also make some heritage

study.

Bible has in the back a number of the grant and

catechism

Baptist Confession those things are incredibly.

Now was that Bible the one?

Was that Bible the one that Dr. Joel Beeky was involved with or with R .C. Sproul?

There are two different ones Reformation Study Bible, which is Sproul's and then

Joel Beeky's is the I believe it's called the Reformation Heritage.

Study Bible, that's the one that you were just mentioning.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I knew that they had the two different ministries which cooperate together on many things.

Had two different Bibles that were very closely titled study Bibles.

That is.

And this is going to be our final break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

We still have a couple of you waiting For your questions to be asked and answered and I appreciate your patience.

We'll get to you as soon as we can.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We are coming right back after these messages with more of dr. George

Grant.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Prusley has no brains of his own.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and I apologize to our sponsors Lindbergh Baptist Church for accidentally cutting their head

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Their website is Lindbergh Baptist org lyn brok Baptist

org and we hope that you Visit them if you're

ever in Nassau County, Long Island.

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Baptist Church and have a listener Christian and Cumberland

County who says give me a break Chris.

You actually asked us to look up Merle de Abagnale at on the banner of truth

Website.

How on earth are we supposed to spell that?

Well, it's m -e -r -l -e d apostrophe a u b as in boy I G

and e and also you could just look up his book the Reformation in England which is

written by Jean -Henri de Bonnier, so Thank you very much

for that.

Good bit of advice to me and not to take you for granted that people know how to spell certain

very complicated.

Did I pronounce his name by the way correctly, uh, dr. Grant.

So if pronunciation I think that that's that's

quite commendable.

But.

This area of reading.

It's funny how Those who are enemies of Calvinism Reformed

theology the doctrines of grace.

However, you want to describe them or nickname them.

They will often say things like no one would ever believe in that stuff.

And this lest they read it from a Calvinist book.

If you stuck with the Bible, you'd never come to that conclusion.

Well, first of all People really should be looking at

books and Authors as teachers.

They're either very good Or they're very bad.

They're either biblically faithful or they're biblically Way off the base or

heretical or somewhere in between.

Yes.

The same thing, well, it's not just

all of life.

You've got to be there.

And final authority.

What teachers Do.

What books of

them?

Yeah at the risk of boring people who heard this story I'll be brief with it though.

I came to the understanding of course by the Holy Spirit, but I came to the understanding of

Calvinism.

When I read a booklet published by Chapel library George Whitfield's

letter to John Wesley on election and I was such a new believer

at the time I didn't know who George Whitfield was so his name had zero weight to me.

It was not some kind of Influencing power where he was somebody that I viewed as a

hero or anything like that.

I I didn't know who he was.

I could care less who he was didn't even know who John Calvin was.

Didn't know who John Wesley was.

But it was the biblical Arguments that Whitfield set forth in this booklet

it was the it was it was the scriptures that opened my eyes to the truths.

It had nothing to do with the Eloquence of George Whitfield.

He was demonstrating from the Bible that these things were true and.

And in fact another Story, which is actually quite.

I think hilarious is years ago back in the 1990s a an anti

Calvinist Fundamentalist Baptist pastor

purchased well, actually a.

He.

Participated in a two -hour radio debate and the airtime was purchased by a

retired Orthodox Jewish journalist who considered himself an

expert on the New Testament or a student at least of the New Testament and when he was debating this

anti Calvinist fundamentalist Baptist.

And he began saying so let me get this straight according to the New Testament.

You believe that God shows a certain group of people before time began

to go to heaven that these would be Come Christians this certain group that he chose.

And the pastor interrupted this Jewish man and said Oh, you got me wrong there pal.

I'm not a Calvinist and this Jewish man said I'm not a what you're not a what?

He goes, I'm not Calvinist.

He goes.

Well, what's that?

He goes.

Well, that's what you're talking about.

He goes.

No, I'm just talking about your Bible this this Elderly Jewish man having read

the New Testament was convinced that all Christians believed in unconditional election.

Yes.

And Romans 9.

And.

You know other parts of the scriptures, but.

We really want to get of course before the time escapes us.

What you believe are good safeguards when picking books

to read.

Of course.

Time is a very valuable commodity in this day and age perhaps more than any other

the busyness that many individuals are enslaved by.

And.

We're carrying cell phones around with us which have computers on them and we're looking at them constantly and

we're always distracted and We've got all these things that we're rushing around to do.

You know, there should be a way to Get straight to the good meat of the of the scriptures and

avoid wasting time.

I don't know if you agree with this, but I have found it to be helpful.

It's not foolproof, but I've found it to be helpful to turn the book

On its you know, turn the back of the book up and look who is endorsing this

book and.

If.

You see some very strange names there or names.

You've never heard or perhaps a lot of Reverend Mary's and things like that.

Back of the book.

That's a good idea that this is probably not a biblically sound Book but like I said, it's not a foolproof

method, but it's a one way of weeding out some books.

Yeah, I think one of the things we have to acknowledge is everybody judges every book by its cover.

Right.

You've got to be discerning.

One of the things that I learned early on my Christian walk was

I discovered that there were a few very Reliable publishers now that can change from

time to time in it.

In fact, it has when I was a brand -new Christian I used to make a beeline in the Christian

bookstore to what was called the inter varsity rack and there I found the works of

J. I. Packer and Francis Schaeffer and a host of others and That's

where I got a lot of really good meaty Material early on

in my Christian life are from that rich legacy.

Oh, yeah publish a few good books.

But they're not reliable.

But then later I discovered a banner of truth

discovered Discovered that there were

reprint Publishers like solid ground Christian book.

Amen.

Wonderful wonderful books that that fed my soul that shaped

my heart and then I would I would become familiar with those who

Recommended those books and and do just what you you said that there might be something that comes from

Erdman's or Thomas Nelson or?

Zondervan that are of value.

Pnr books is another publisher.

Yes almost everything that they do Reformation trust is

another public Ligonier ministries.

Yeah, everything that they do.

It's Ligonier's so you can Not only go by who

recommends a book, but who is it that is publishing these Reformation heritage

books is another.

Yes, yes.

And.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Yeah, you've just got to be very very discerning and very careful.

But the other thing is that there are a few websites out there That are really helpful in

identifying good books and have great reviews.

For instance now Westminster Theological Seminary has a bookstore and

They recommend books.

There's a there's a or there's a wonderful website called Monarchism

and Monarchism comments a great place to get good.

You just have to start somewhere.

One of the things I tell my students is is that they should follow the footnote trail.

So in other words, you're reading along

quoting Thomas Watson or Thomas Brooks and you realize oh, that's it.

That's an old Puritan.

This is a really pungent quote.

Excellent.

You know you.

Amen and unfortunately you cannot always rely even though I think

that.

Judging from some things that my guest dr. George Grant has said that he

like myself would view J .i. Packer as a sort of modern -day Christian hero

a great man of God who has contributed so much immense Value

to Christian literature, but at the same time, I don't understand how he can endorse

Some of the books that he endorses my mind is spinning about that.

Yeah, you

know

some of that is

some of that yeah,

you know you

have to be sure

to find book of

and Then you can say okay with it.

He probably just dashed this off.

You have to consider you know, these are busy men they're teaching classes writing their own

books a pile of 250 pages a

manuscript, you know, they may not be

paying and so yeah.

You have to exercise discernment even there.

But I would say this J .i. Packer is not going to endorse a bad to

put you fluffy book.

Well, actually, I thought that he did endorse a bad book ecumenical jihad by jihad by

Peter Kreeft was pretty bad in my opinion, but I Was surprised that he endorsed that because basically

Peter Kreeft was taking the position that even an atheist can go to heaven if he'd.

And obviously the one of the things that involves

Reading and becoming More effective at making use of

that is the as your Way that you schedule your life and

time and so on to tell us something about that.

You have to do in and you have to make room

for what matters by getting rid of the things that don't matter.

Unfortunately, we live in a time where time wasters

proliferate and the chief time waster quite frankly is It's social media.

It's no people will often tell me.

I just went on Facebook real quick to check a few things and an hour and a half.

Later, I realized oh my goodness.

I've been trans mixed.

I'm paralyzed.

I'm still here.

So what we have to do is we have to actually set boundaries.

I'm a very strong believer in setting goals and in planning.

I don't always adhere to my plan and I don't always achieve all of my goals.

But.

Dawson Trotman the founder of Navigators always used to say thoughts tend to

disentangle themselves when they flow over the write it

down.

Write down what you intend to do.

Block out time.

One of the things that I do is I actually schedule time for my family

in my calendar So that I'm not ever tempted to allow stuff

who erode With my

family.

I think we all have to be very Intentional these days about the careful stewardship of

our time and if if we're not

time will be gobbled up by Wasteful.

And the other thing is is I don't know reading

with a real clear

that we have to be very intentional in saying okay, I'm Not sure that

I'm going to really in by one

of the Puritans, but I probably need it.

Well, if it is just on the wish list It's probably never going to actually happen.

So we have to schedule it with them.

And so we ought to have a plan we ought to have sort of a Direction that we

intend to go with our intellectual lives.

In the same way that we ought to have a Bible reading plan.

We ought to have a spiritual growth plan.

We have to know where we're going along the

way but

Intentionality of the things of God in every area of our life.

Amen, we have John in Augusta, Maine.

Who wants to know?

You have had a guest on your program a few times Mac Tomlinson who

strongly believes that reformed people need to break out of our

Calvinist niche on occasion and learn from men outside of our

theological camp.

That happened to be Arminian or not thoroughly reformed.

What is your current guests understanding or view on that?

You're what what he teaches on that subject.

Well, like for instance my friend Mac Tomlinson who I've interviewed.

He wrote a biography of Leonard Ravenhill who was not reformed and Mac by the way is a thoroughgoing

Calvinist.

He but he values obviously things of men of God.

That were not in lockstep with the reformed faith and sure.

Well, I do too, you know.

I've already mentioned John R. W. Stott.

I would not consider him reformed at all, I Highly

value his insights.

I have collected and I've read widely.

All of the worry was not reformed Roman Catholic

He for most of his life.

He was Anglican at the end of his life.

He converted to Roman is

not.

I read fiction.

I read nonfiction.

I read poetry.

I read as widely as I possibly can Christians and non -christians.

One of the best books.

I've read recently.

I had a long international plane flight last week and I read Tom Wolfe's

new book the kingdom of speech which is a skewering

of Darwinism and of theory as

Espoused by people like Noam Chomsky, it's brilliant.

I think anybody who's interested in the questions of evolution and

creation intelligent design, etc need to read this book, but he's not even a

Christian and.

So I read widely in those.

So, of course, I'm going to have a deep affection for a

lot of our Arminian charismatic and You know various

other I'm gonna

read.

Yeah another book that pops into my mind that was.

Widely used and quoted from and Strongly promoted

was amusing yourself to death by Neil Postman a Jewish writer.

Who is Neil Postman was more of a trend

at all, but amusing? ourselves to death as well as

the Enlightenment and and Media theories of the brilliance and amusing ourselves to

death.

It's just yeah.

Yeah, that was also my friend.

I don't know if you know pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, but he oh, yeah.

Yeah, he loves that book and uses it as well and in different conference settings and so on.

Well, thank you very much John from Augusta, Maine.

Keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in New England.

And yeah something that you said also.

With John Stott that dovetails into another thing.

Is that like for instance is classic the cross of Christ and other things.

We as.

The Church of God should embrace but that doesn't mean that when He may say other

things that we have serious problems with like I understand.

He at least Became if not an advocate of annihilation ism.

He believed it was a valid theory and You know.

So some people might just throw the baby out with the bathwater and have want nothing to do with John Stott because of that.

But that's that would be an extreme reaction, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I think it was.

He never went as far as say Edward Fudge did on

annihilation ism.

What what he did was he?

Stated some ambivalence about.

I don't have that ambivalence, but I understand why he wrestled with it.

Yes, the only thing that I can think of that.

I do not agree with that.

I wish I did agree with.

Because it's obviously something that I can't even dwell on long if when you consider lost loved ones that have

left this earth.

It's not something that you want to sit there and contemplate for long periods of time.

So the hell eternal hell is a very horrifying truth.

And so it's it's no shock that people would try to find

some way to be more more comfortable with Eternity when it comes to

people they love.

But I really want you now to spend the last Five minutes or so to really unburden your heart

and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds.

Before we leave this program today.

Well, thank you, Chris.

I tell you This

Christ is in the worship of God has been.

We have a changing of

the guard where your leaders are

rapidly departing from the scene.

When.

Evangelicals can be someone like Pat Robertson who believes that the sniffles

of the Holy Spirit coming out.

I never heard that one.

This is not the Babylonian.

This is not the onion.

That's for real.

So so we live at this very strategic moment when the church is in

disarray it is time be about the work

of simple referenda the ongoing work of reformation.

Now like never before do we need the reforming work of the next generation

of Calvins and Knox's.

We need the kind of passion that John Knox had when he cried God give me

Scotland or I Jesus Christ to

stop playing games and get busy in the great work of the kingdom and

That means Discipleship that means training up the next

generation of our

children in the

book sacrifice and steward.

Amen.

Amen.

And one more note about Semper Reformanda.

There are people that distort that that twist that and come up with novel teachings.

Trying to say that this is completely in harmony with flying under that banner.

The fact that you know, you have all these new things even coming up rising up

from within Theologically reformed circles that are frightening and so on.

How do you put the brakes on?

Semper Reformanda without Bringing it to a complete screeching halt.

Well, it's like anything else you can take something that is glorious.

And good say that it means something else and then

profound that that will be of course dangerous.

That's not what simple referenda means.

Referenda does not mean okay.

Now we can change our definition of our definition of who can or cannot be

ordained.

It simply means going back to the

school guide

Scottish past the Cambridge prison in

the UK in Hamilton.

He wrote this erosion

drifting from the truth this

whole question a referenda and

Carver

referenda are really propounding simple

liberalism and.

And that's not

simple referenda really is a

generation a vision of the gospel that changes.

Every praise God.

Well the two websites I want you to be remember now before you leave this broadcast is parish

press org.

That's the website of the church where dr. George Grant is the minister and also

Kings meadow calm K -ing s meadow calm no

apostrophe in that Kings Kings meadow calm and.

You can find out more about dr. Grant his ministry and his writing.

I want to thank you so much again for being my guest on the program.

You are certainly becoming one of my favorite guests brother.

Well, thank you Chris.

This has been a great delight.

You too.

And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater as Savior Than

you are.

Sinner.